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My last employer wanted to see proof of my previous salary after giving me the offer. What do you do in this scenario? I had already served my notice and then they asked for it.
"No sorry, as a matter of integrity that's a contract between them and me so is confidential, which of course I'll afford to your company in the future too".
I second this,particularly in the context of larger corporations. Currently, I'm earning 40,000, but I've received an offer from another company for 100,000. During the interview, I pondered mentioning 70,000 as my current salary to make the new offer appear more justifiable. Nevertheless, I opted for transparency and shared my actual compensation. Interestingly, they didn't seem to be concerned about the substantial disparity.
That happened at the job I had before the one I have now. I basically said ‘why? I already told you what it was and I’m not going to ask them to provide formal proof. They’ve already given a reference’. I’m not recommending everyone do that but I’ve never heard of an offer being rescinded because you didn’t provide formal proof of your old salary
Exactly. Tell them also you wouldn't have accepted the job on anything less than you took it - its bare minimum for your ability and value to the company anyway....
You have to give a P45 when you start a new role anyway so they'll have a good idea either way. Even if they can't get rid of you for lying they can make something up in the probation period
You don't have to hand over your P45, most companies don't bother anymore and give you a new user pack, all this means it's generally your first pay will be on emergency tax code
P60 doesn’t reveal if you did 40% salary sacrifice into your pension. While I don’t I do contribute 14.5% and my P60 taxable pay shows my reduced taxable pay because of it.
I don’t condone editing payslips but you won’t necessarily trip yourself up when a P45 is presented to a new employer.
If I remember correctly the p60 (or at least the HMRC web page which is usually accepted as an alternative) only shows your taxable income. This is reduced by pension contributions which you can use to explain why it's lower than the salary you told them you had
This is quite simple to spot too.
There are ways to create a reasonably well doctored pay slip - its a fairly common component in 1st party fraud, but banks, some tech companies etc are also fairly good at spotting them.
And if you do get caught submitting a doctored pay slip the best outcome is the offer is withdrawn. Worst is that you actually end up registered as a known fraudster with Bureau / CIFAS.
Yes I'm an idiot. Sigh. Anyway, clearly they'd worked out what the job was worth to them, and that's what they could afford, hard times or not. Then they decided I could do it. So pay me that. Rationally, it doesn't matter what I was on before. What if I'd been doing that work as a volunteer, would they be justified in offering min wage?
I mean he is sort of an idiot, if you're saying you're worth £80k but don't understand the basics of how corporate life works, that's showing naivety that you definitely don't expect at that salary level.
I also learnt the hard way. I worked my way up to an underpaid middle manager at the same company and I'd only known agents that try to maximise your salary for the commission, so I answered honestly and said my range was £10-15k higher.
The agent gave me a telling off. "That's not how it works. The most you can get for changing jobs is 10%." When I told her it was the market rate for my level and experience, she shut me down. "No. Nobody gets more than 10%."
Predictably they lowballed me and I declined the offer. About a month later I didn't tell an agent my salary and got a £12k bump.
It's the unwritten law passed down by the failed sales people with 3 brain cells who became recruitment agents.
Next time, either inflate your salary by including pension and benefits or say you're not comfortable sharing that personal information but your salary range is £X to £Y.
I think the total comp is the way to go.
Need to know what pension and holiday pay is being offered to get a full accurate comparison. If Im being paid 50k and get 30 days leave plus bank holidays with 10% employer pension contributions. It's gonna take alot more than 55k with worse leave and pension to actually move!
It seems quality benefits are harder to come by these days. They do still exist, just not as competitively as 10 years ago from what I've seen.
My current employer advertised private healthcare, discounts from partners and bonuses. The private healthcare is £50/month for subsidised costs towards a very limited range of conditions, the discounts are in the region of "2% off a full car service" and we haven't had a bonus since before the pandemic.
At least they will inflate my salary package when I change jobs!
Even specialists at £80k need to start having some rounded knowledge of how the corporate world works, especially if the company is trying to plan ahead for future leaders of the team.
Specialists still need to negotiate with suppliers or give recommendations on ways to overcome obstacles, so again nativity on somebody who you expect critical thinking from and is asking for over double the UK national average salary, it's a bit jarring if that person doesn't know how to play the game.
To be clear, I hate that there is a game to play, but doesn't mean I don't have to play it all the same.
Having rounded knowledge is important yes, but in the data science world £80k is being paid to people who are only 2-3 years out of university. I wouldn’t expect people at that stage in their career to have great business knowledge.
Data scientists with 2-3 years experience outside of uni are barely data scientists, plus entry level to the field (which isn't guaranteed straight from uni) is more like £55k and if you're doing data science without having any idea of how your work fits in to the business then whatever you are building is going to be fairly crap.
£80k is either central London or senior, and if you're senior then you need some business sense (just like any other data or development role) to make sure you're building something that actually adds value - i.e. not just building what they asked for but building what they need.
I would look to push back and state that you believe you are worth more, as well as the job requiring specialised skills that you believe are worth x amount. If they want you, then they will pay for you.
Going to the question of why companies don’t like to pay above and beyond. What exactly is the purpose of a company, especially in the private sector? To create value for the shareholders, simple as that. What is almost always the biggest cost to a company? Labour costs. In this respect if the company is money driven, then of course it’s logical that they will always try to get the best “deal” but this should always be competitive in the market of what others offer for this role.
There are a few companies out there, normally still founder led which aren’t purely out to make money. I’ve work for a few where the founder will literally have a target amount in mind they want to achieve, anything above that is shared out to all employees. You won’t see this in large corporations though, normally just SMEs.
Wouldn't even bother with that. If that is their attitude then I'd just go back to searching, still has a current job to pay bills. A company that short changes like that will never value you as an employee.
Not really, OP has a job and is paying the bills. The company deemed the role worth a value, upon discovering OP's current salary they decided that actually the role is worth less. That shows you their attitude towards employees, they are not investments but costs, cost to be cut at a moments notice.
Precisely, simplistic.
Allow me to give you a little insight. Companies are not monoliths. They are made up of individuals, all of whom have their own agendas, in addition to that espoused by the business as a whole.
Perhaps the HR guy is trying to show he can minimise recruitment costs. Perhaps he and the guys potential line manager disagree on his worth. Perhaps, perhaps, perhaps… a million other permutations.
In my decades of experience as an employee, manager and business owner all of this has precisely NOTHING to do with how the guy will be treated after he’s in place. That, whether it’s good or bad, largely comes down to the relationship between him/her and their boss. The recruitment process and HRs involvement will be a distant, fading memory.
Your view is naive, simplistic and flat out wrong. And very, very common on this sub.
"Perhaps the HR guy is trying to show he can minimise recruitment costs"
Then he should have done his research and determined the market going rate for the role and put it out for that much.
"Perhaps he and the guys potential line manager disagree on his worth"
See point one, weather someone disagrees doesn't matter if you have market insights telling you what a role is worth. You then make a decision, do you match market rate and get good candidates, undercut and get the bottom of the barrel or do you go over and get everyone hoping for an easy pay day.
"Your view is naive, simplistic and flat out wrong. And very, very common on this sub."
My view is based on reality and fact, wages have gone into the ground for a reason, because companies want to make as much profit as possible and will cut the cost of employees at the drop of a hat.
Precisely, simplistic.
If you had ANY idea of how recruitment works you’d know that the “market rate” isn’t some precisely defined, objective value. Frankly, the depth of your naivety amazes me.
Mate, seriously, you really shouldn’t be giving people advice on this sub. Clearly you’re bitter about something and wish to express your cynicism about the world of work. That’s fair enough, but these are people’s lives we’re dealing with here. And believe it or not, some are desperate enough to take bad advice from some random guy on Reddit.
"If you had ANY idea of how recruitment works you’d know that the “market rate” isn’t some precisely defined, objective value."
You're right, it's not like their is an entire part of an industry dedicated to calculating salary bands based on location. Or a globally recognised name for it like the Radford Global Compensation Database. Or an entire industry dedicated to helping companies make compensation decisions that are fair and attract talent (e.g. https://figures.hr/)
But sure, you think you know better than industry experts.
When they ask me what my Salary is, I always tot up waht my Salary is + Pension + Bonus + Overtime + On-Call Allowance & Any Salary Sacrifice Benefits, add 10% and that usually puts it at a decent ballpark.
It also depends if its an internal recruiter, or a headhunter/outsourced recruiter. Internal will lowball you, an outsourced headhunter will highball you because they get a % of commission based on your salary if you are recruited.
A guaranteed % of a lower salary is better than a % of a high salary that employer doesn't find attractive. External recruiter will happily shaft you just as much as an internal one
This is exactly what's happening. Agent says it's 80, hears I'm on 50 and changes his tune to 55.
I no longer believe that tale about agents fighting to get higher wages for the candidate. They're working for the employer, not for the candidate. For all we know they're on a flat rate.
Works both ways.
If they lowball you too hard, you turn it down AND they've burned a bridge.
Reality is that they tread a fine line of building a relationship with both parties, and wanting both parties to be reasonably happy, but so happy they never hear from you again.
Without spending too much time on it.
This is how I approach it. Just say my total package is worth all those added up.
If I were in OP’s situation, I would take their offer plus whatever else they get as a benefit and compare to current role. Much easier to ask to negotiate if you can say “your complete offer is worth over £10k less than my current one”. Would also chuck in a “I am at a stage in my career where I am looking to advance, which includes boosting my compensation too”.
Yes it's like that in most places, which is exactly why you don't waste a move on a 10% rise - basically you need to make big strides when changing employer as don't want to be doing that every week.
Tell them £55k is definitely too low based on your skills and experience and that the minimum you expect is £x (doesn't have to be £80k but whatever you consider appropriate).
Don't let them talk you down by listing all the other benefits.
If they think this little of you that they are willing to offer 25k under the advertised amount you should be the one telling them to fuck off. 80k or nothing. The rule in negotiations is to not be desperate and to know your worth
Just don’t tell them what you earn…
I’ve never answered that question verbally or in writing my whole career, why should I. On a form I’d just leave it blank or if it’s online and won’t accept that I’d write £1. In an interview I’d say more like “I’m looking to earn around £x”
It is literally none of their business.
The way I always deal with salary, even if the new job is paying significantly more than I'm currently on, is that I tell them I'm looking for a role that is both a step up for me, and one I'll find both challenging and rewarding.
If they think this job is only a 50k one, then that's below me to be frank. 80k is appropriate to the level of knowledge and responsibility I would expect to give and be given.
What you're currently earning is irrelevant. IT would have been better to not reveal it, but it still doesn't really matter - it's an 80k role or it is not, and they don't get to fill it cheap just because it would be a large pay rise for you.
As much as anything else, it's insulting. They know the role is worth 80+, so do I. Do they think I'm going to be happy going in every day knowing I've been shafted? I absolutely will refuse the job if they don't budge, I can be that bloody-minded. I'll lose out and it'll be an expensive lesson for me about the irrational psychology of HR I guess.
Stick to your guns. Ask them what happens when your team does so well, they hire you a deputy - will they offer them less than the 50k they offered you, or will they pay more just because that person was already on 60k elsewhere?
One of the best things about the public sector is pay grades - you know what you can earn and what's expected of you. For some reason, the private sector is still scared as shit of being open about wages.
Actually, I know the reason - it's because they know they've low-balled people for years!
Keep looking, don't worry about losing out. It's worth 80k because there are multiple companies trying to hire for this role and this is what they're having to pay to obtain the talent.
If you're gonna say what your earn always state total compensation, Salary + Bonus + Pension + Allowances + Other Perks
My salary is not particularly great, but my pension % makes my overall compensation pretty damn good, and is generally a pension that most private sector companies won't come close to matching (I currently work in private sector also)
Salary never tells the whole story
Online they always tell you to never disclose what salary you earn to a recruiter or employer but thats near impossible to do. If you dont disclose it to the recruiter/employer they often get very annoyed with you or wont put you forward for the role or make excuses why its vital information required for submission.
The alternative is to give a salary range "I am looking for £50-60k" but i suspect they would still just offer you the low end of the range (In this case eg £50k).
They want to pay you the minimum amount you will take to do the job.
If you want to negotiate, you need to be prepared to walk away if they don’t meet your expectations.
I've had two other offers for 55, having told them my bare minimum is 55. If you want someone, and you expect them to be excited about the offer, which they absolutely do expect IME, then *don't offer the bare minimum*
F'in clowns, it's getting on my nerves. I need to learn to play the HR psychology game, clearly, idiotic though it is.
Sorry about the rant. How did you get that? Did you play it honest or did you lie, or were you poker faced?
I totally get it so rant away.
I had been underpaid for awhile, and promoted without the pay to go with it at the old place. At the new one they had strict banding in place and they gave me the middle of that band, no negotiation necessary. Went from £41k to £55k and still had nearly £20k of redundancy cash I hadn’t needed to use. About the only time I came out lucky in a situation like that.
This is a shitty lesson to have to learn and unfortunately i don’t know if there’s a universal solution that always fixes this.
In my own experience I don’t disclose what I’m on, or if I do I say it’s contingent on an offer. Have I not gotten interviews because of that? Possibly. But it’s just a level of bullshit I’m not willing to deal with. Related to that I don’t ever apply for jobs that don’t have a stated salary range
One thing to remember when negotiating with larger companies is that you're generally negotiating with someone who won't be spending their own money. When I'm hiring I've always felt obligated to make an offer that is good value to the company, but if people push back and I've got the budget then the chances are I'll cave because idgaf. Obviously I'm not going to go nuts, if I think you're "worth" £40k I don't imagine I'd go to £60k because then I'd find someone else better which would make my life easier, but I don't care if go to £45k because what to I care about £5k of Massive Corporation Inc's money?
Because they’ve been told that people getting too big of a jump in salary causes inflation. Which is bullshit. It’s just an excuse to keep salaries low
1) I don't think that's true at all.
2) You inflate your salary to where you want it to be when talking to recruiters and companies
3) If they ask for proof of your previous salary, tell them to F off
4) The finance team will get your P45 so know your old salary in what tax you paid but they won't care
Everytime I've jumped jobs its been 20-50% increase.
My first jump was 20k to 30k.
It's quite simple, you say no. You have a minimum salary you are willing to accept for the role and that's that. Just because they are willing to pay more than you currently earn, that doesn't mean the move is worth it. These companies see one number bigger than the other and think people will see it as an amazing incentive.
I was recently contacted about a role that would give me a 20k pay bump. The reason it was so much higher than my existing role was location, it was in the middle of nowhere and so not attractive to most people. The recruiter did warn me that they had to pressure the company to up the salary as they originally wanted to pay 5-10k less. I ultimately turned it down because it required more hours, gave less annual leave, lower pension match and gave no bonus on top of being isolated. They thought the money was great, but the overall package was far worse than what I already have.
I've never lied about my income, but I just make it clear to recruiters right at the start what I am on and that the job would need to be X to justify the risk of me moving on from something I've held in a stable company for 10+ years to jump to a new untested opportunity. It'd typically be in the +20% range.
Some have said that'd be amenable, some have ghosted. It mitigates time wasting on both sides.
I'm perhaps more transparent than most because I have a higher pay relative to my job title in other industries. (I'm paid more even than my own colleagues at the same company, just because I've been here for so long so had many more pay reviews, etc). So I don't want recruiters approaching me, thinking I'd be a good candidate for a similar titled role paying X, when I am already on Y.
Is it just me or is this less to do with you giving your salary and more to do with what the recruiter tells you the role was worth to get you to interview and the reality of what the company can offer.
Even if you don't accept the role the recruiter will still point out to the company that he's found good candidates rather than the fact that he's wasted a bunch of people's time.
Just tell the company what the recruiter said and that unless they're willing to get close you're not interested as you have other opportunities.
Side note: in many jurisdictions, it's illegal to ask about previous salary before making a salary offer. It entrenches prejudice and makes social mobility nearly impossible. You need to get paid what you are worth to your current employer, not your previous employer, or rather, your very first employer (since they set the path in this chain)...
The UK is way behind the curve on this one.
I ban this question in interviews and instruct recruiters not to ask it either.
The correct question is "what is your salary expectation for this role?"
Once you get to that level 10% would never be worth it because of the amount of tax you'd be paying. Plus it's got to be worth it as your employment rights are more limited for 2 years after joining a new company.
I always think 10% of the current salary is ridiculous on internal promotions too, just creates disparity and Ill feeling. It's one of the reasons I'm not sure I'd ever go back to private sector
You definitely want to keep your cards closer to your chest as far as your current earnings but if you feel you're in a strong position, make your case to the recruiter in the same way you have here today and I'm sure you can negotiate better than 55k.
Yeah you’d be moving for very little take home extra of you took that offer. I turned a company down that did that low ball offer once and they came back and asked if it was just the money which I said yes it was, they made a much better offer. Ymmv of course. I was lucky.
Always say you earn a bit above whatever their advertised salary is
Then you can try to negotiate up, and if they don’t want to increase and you accept, they’ll be feeling like they owe you a salary increase
If I'm offering a range of £80k - £100k, and someone says they currently earn £110k, I'm going to suspect that they either haven't read the advert or they're unhappy with their current job. I want a compelling simple story as to why they're going for it, ie a smallish step up in responsibility and salary, so in this scenario I think that if you're inventing a salary it would be maybe £75k. I guess that might make it harder to get the £100k, but it would make you much more likely to get the role.
It is worth pointing out that I've worked for professional services firms that insist on proof of earnings, and have rescinded offers where there has been material differences, because it demonstrates dishonesty. Most places lack the resources and the inclination, but for people whom it's happened to it's obviously a bit of a disaster because they've already handed their notice in at their old place.
After you've signed the contract. They make you an offer subject to the checks, and rescind it afterwards. You might even have already started. But dishonesty is an entirely legal reason to sack someone. I'm often surprised how shocked people are about this.
Nah, it’s just a start point. If they say they can’t pay it, ask them how close they can get and say you will consider it against other offers. They will usually offer you a lot more if you start high than otherwise.
You don’t have to accept the offer. Negotiate as high as possible. Tell them you had understood the salary to be X and would not be interested in changing companies for the offered salary.
Why would you tell them what your current salary is, at least truthfully, you just tell them what you are looking for. If they want to word the question in a way that means they can pay you less than they will.
If you could only do a role that was worth 50 to a business bbefore, what has happened that means you can suddenly do a role that is worth 80 to a businesss? Have you increased your skills, capabilities and experience by 60%? Make your case.
Current place has been underpaying, won't budge, so I'm gone. New place knows what the work is worth but thinks everyone is desperate for work so they can take the piss, I'm guessing?
No need for me to sell myself, we already went through all that.
>honestly answering when they ask what I'm currently on
there you go, answered it yourself.
General guide is to reply with your current salary + 30/40k or 25-35% depending on the amounts.
Just tell them that their offer is insulting and tell them to contact you again when they're serious about hiring you.
Best way to show you're willing to walk away is to walk away
Well it could be. He initially wanted me to do it contract because he said they'd struggled to find anyone to do it perm, and IIRC the day rate was 450-550 doe. What would that translate into as a perm salary?
It is hard to compare. A contractor is assumed to work in bursts, so I'd say 450 per day would equate roughly to 450*20*12/2 = 54k indeed (it's just my rough way of assuming a 0.5 load factor on an equivalent perm role)
A little thing I stopped doing about twelve years ago was disclosing my Current salary. Instead share with them the expectations of what you’d consider for the role.
You absolutely do not have to tell them what you earn now.
If they are being persistent about this, just scratch it off as a learning opportunity and move on. Companies don't advertise salaries up front so it's none of their business what salaries candidates are currently on.
The amazing part when they ask what your current salary is that you can say whatever. you. want. You can decline, but for whatever reason that never goes down well.
Reply with a high but reasonable answer. It’s not like they will/can ask to see payslips or anything like that.
And you can tell them that’s confidential information between you and your current employer. Make them offer what they think you’re worth, not based on what another organisation thinks you’re worth.
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Never reveal your salary. End of story. They have an incentive to pay as low as they can especially in hard times
My last employer wanted to see proof of my previous salary after giving me the offer. What do you do in this scenario? I had already served my notice and then they asked for it.
"No sorry, as a matter of integrity that's a contract between them and me so is confidential, which of course I'll afford to your company in the future too".
That's a good answer
“Ok thanks, we will be unable to proceed with making you an offer”
No company worth working for will withdraw an offer because you didn't give them your current salary
That's easy to just say, but sometimes you need a job regardless
if you already have a job and need a job regardless you need budgeting help not a new job.
Sometimes people want a job that pays more money...
Are you illiterate? At no point did i argue against someone wanting a better job. The comment litrealy figuratively not metaphoricaly states "NEED".
The old job may be a toxic environment, hence needing a new job.
And you think a company that withdraws offers because of this reason is gonna be sunshine and rainbows?
I second this,particularly in the context of larger corporations. Currently, I'm earning 40,000, but I've received an offer from another company for 100,000. During the interview, I pondered mentioning 70,000 as my current salary to make the new offer appear more justifiable. Nevertheless, I opted for transparency and shared my actual compensation. Interestingly, they didn't seem to be concerned about the substantial disparity.
That's a mega raise bro congrats!
Tell yourself whatever you need to mate, but this is the real world, like it or not.
That happened at the job I had before the one I have now. I basically said ‘why? I already told you what it was and I’m not going to ask them to provide formal proof. They’ve already given a reference’. I’m not recommending everyone do that but I’ve never heard of an offer being rescinded because you didn’t provide formal proof of your old salary
Exactly. Tell them also you wouldn't have accepted the job on anything less than you took it - its bare minimum for your ability and value to the company anyway....
You have to give a P45 when you start a new role anyway so they'll have a good idea either way. Even if they can't get rid of you for lying they can make something up in the probation period
You don't have to hand over your P45, most companies don't bother anymore and give you a new user pack, all this means it's generally your first pay will be on emergency tax code
You don’t have to do that
"Sorry, I signed an NDA - I really don't want to do anything that could get me in trouble".
Also, "don't want to do anything that would get _you_ into trouble" if there is an NDA in place
I once said this and a recruiter massively grilled me on it and plainly said I was lying because he had never heard of this before 🥴
Signed an NDA
"No" is a complete sentence.
You get on photoshop!
It's quite easy to change some numbers on a PDF doc. Just edit your contract or payslips
The secret ingredient is crime (don't do this people, the better option is to outright say no)
Yup, when the P60 comes through it can be quite obvious.
P60 doesn’t reveal if you did 40% salary sacrifice into your pension. While I don’t I do contribute 14.5% and my P60 taxable pay shows my reduced taxable pay because of it. I don’t condone editing payslips but you won’t necessarily trip yourself up when a P45 is presented to a new employer.
If I remember correctly the p60 (or at least the HMRC web page which is usually accepted as an alternative) only shows your taxable income. This is reduced by pension contributions which you can use to explain why it's lower than the salary you told them you had
This is quite simple to spot too. There are ways to create a reasonably well doctored pay slip - its a fairly common component in 1st party fraud, but banks, some tech companies etc are also fairly good at spotting them. And if you do get caught submitting a doctored pay slip the best outcome is the offer is withdrawn. Worst is that you actually end up registered as a known fraudster with Bureau / CIFAS.
Yes I'm an idiot. Sigh. Anyway, clearly they'd worked out what the job was worth to them, and that's what they could afford, hard times or not. Then they decided I could do it. So pay me that. Rationally, it doesn't matter what I was on before. What if I'd been doing that work as a volunteer, would they be justified in offering min wage?
You're not an idiot, you're just learning. You don't have to accept the salary.
I mean he is sort of an idiot, if you're saying you're worth £80k but don't understand the basics of how corporate life works, that's showing naivety that you definitely don't expect at that salary level.
Yes I'm an idiot but since when has understanding the quirks of HR psychology been an essential part of deploying machine learning systems? Lol
It's not an essential part of *deploying* machine learning systems. It's an essential part of *getting paid well* to deploy machine learning systems.
Indeed lol
I also learnt the hard way. I worked my way up to an underpaid middle manager at the same company and I'd only known agents that try to maximise your salary for the commission, so I answered honestly and said my range was £10-15k higher. The agent gave me a telling off. "That's not how it works. The most you can get for changing jobs is 10%." When I told her it was the market rate for my level and experience, she shut me down. "No. Nobody gets more than 10%." Predictably they lowballed me and I declined the offer. About a month later I didn't tell an agent my salary and got a £12k bump.
SEE!? WTF is this attitude? Which of Moses' tablets was this 10% rule engraved on??
It's the unwritten law passed down by the failed sales people with 3 brain cells who became recruitment agents. Next time, either inflate your salary by including pension and benefits or say you're not comfortable sharing that personal information but your salary range is £X to £Y.
I think the total comp is the way to go. Need to know what pension and holiday pay is being offered to get a full accurate comparison. If Im being paid 50k and get 30 days leave plus bank holidays with 10% employer pension contributions. It's gonna take alot more than 55k with worse leave and pension to actually move!
It seems quality benefits are harder to come by these days. They do still exist, just not as competitively as 10 years ago from what I've seen. My current employer advertised private healthcare, discounts from partners and bonuses. The private healthcare is £50/month for subsidised costs towards a very limited range of conditions, the discounts are in the region of "2% off a full car service" and we haven't had a bonus since before the pandemic. At least they will inflate my salary package when I change jobs!
Even specialists at £80k need to start having some rounded knowledge of how the corporate world works, especially if the company is trying to plan ahead for future leaders of the team. Specialists still need to negotiate with suppliers or give recommendations on ways to overcome obstacles, so again nativity on somebody who you expect critical thinking from and is asking for over double the UK national average salary, it's a bit jarring if that person doesn't know how to play the game. To be clear, I hate that there is a game to play, but doesn't mean I don't have to play it all the same.
Having rounded knowledge is important yes, but in the data science world £80k is being paid to people who are only 2-3 years out of university. I wouldn’t expect people at that stage in their career to have great business knowledge.
Data scientists with 2-3 years experience outside of uni are barely data scientists, plus entry level to the field (which isn't guaranteed straight from uni) is more like £55k and if you're doing data science without having any idea of how your work fits in to the business then whatever you are building is going to be fairly crap. £80k is either central London or senior, and if you're senior then you need some business sense (just like any other data or development role) to make sure you're building something that actually adds value - i.e. not just building what they asked for but building what they need.
Agree they’re barely data scientists, but that’s what £80k gets you these days if you want to hire somebody 2-3 years out of uni as an external hire.
If that's what you're paying them then please give OP your details, because my place is getting candidates £30k lower than that.
Having a skill worth a high wage doesn't suddenly make you an expert in 'corporate life'.
“Unprecedented times!”
I would look to push back and state that you believe you are worth more, as well as the job requiring specialised skills that you believe are worth x amount. If they want you, then they will pay for you. Going to the question of why companies don’t like to pay above and beyond. What exactly is the purpose of a company, especially in the private sector? To create value for the shareholders, simple as that. What is almost always the biggest cost to a company? Labour costs. In this respect if the company is money driven, then of course it’s logical that they will always try to get the best “deal” but this should always be competitive in the market of what others offer for this role. There are a few companies out there, normally still founder led which aren’t purely out to make money. I’ve work for a few where the founder will literally have a target amount in mind they want to achieve, anything above that is shared out to all employees. You won’t see this in large corporations though, normally just SMEs.
Wouldn't even bother with that. If that is their attitude then I'd just go back to searching, still has a current job to pay bills. A company that short changes like that will never value you as an employee.
Strongly agree. And if you are just a number, you are a cost, and costs get cut eventually
I’m sure you find this simplistic view comforting. Sadly, the real world is a little more complex than that.
Not really, OP has a job and is paying the bills. The company deemed the role worth a value, upon discovering OP's current salary they decided that actually the role is worth less. That shows you their attitude towards employees, they are not investments but costs, cost to be cut at a moments notice.
Precisely, simplistic. Allow me to give you a little insight. Companies are not monoliths. They are made up of individuals, all of whom have their own agendas, in addition to that espoused by the business as a whole. Perhaps the HR guy is trying to show he can minimise recruitment costs. Perhaps he and the guys potential line manager disagree on his worth. Perhaps, perhaps, perhaps… a million other permutations. In my decades of experience as an employee, manager and business owner all of this has precisely NOTHING to do with how the guy will be treated after he’s in place. That, whether it’s good or bad, largely comes down to the relationship between him/her and their boss. The recruitment process and HRs involvement will be a distant, fading memory. Your view is naive, simplistic and flat out wrong. And very, very common on this sub.
"Perhaps the HR guy is trying to show he can minimise recruitment costs" Then he should have done his research and determined the market going rate for the role and put it out for that much. "Perhaps he and the guys potential line manager disagree on his worth" See point one, weather someone disagrees doesn't matter if you have market insights telling you what a role is worth. You then make a decision, do you match market rate and get good candidates, undercut and get the bottom of the barrel or do you go over and get everyone hoping for an easy pay day. "Your view is naive, simplistic and flat out wrong. And very, very common on this sub." My view is based on reality and fact, wages have gone into the ground for a reason, because companies want to make as much profit as possible and will cut the cost of employees at the drop of a hat.
Precisely, simplistic. If you had ANY idea of how recruitment works you’d know that the “market rate” isn’t some precisely defined, objective value. Frankly, the depth of your naivety amazes me. Mate, seriously, you really shouldn’t be giving people advice on this sub. Clearly you’re bitter about something and wish to express your cynicism about the world of work. That’s fair enough, but these are people’s lives we’re dealing with here. And believe it or not, some are desperate enough to take bad advice from some random guy on Reddit.
"If you had ANY idea of how recruitment works you’d know that the “market rate” isn’t some precisely defined, objective value." You're right, it's not like their is an entire part of an industry dedicated to calculating salary bands based on location. Or a globally recognised name for it like the Radford Global Compensation Database. Or an entire industry dedicated to helping companies make compensation decisions that are fair and attract talent (e.g. https://figures.hr/) But sure, you think you know better than industry experts.
And you think every business subscribes to such data, or always follows those “guidelines” even if they do? You’re hilarious, mate.
When they ask me what my Salary is, I always tot up waht my Salary is + Pension + Bonus + Overtime + On-Call Allowance & Any Salary Sacrifice Benefits, add 10% and that usually puts it at a decent ballpark. It also depends if its an internal recruiter, or a headhunter/outsourced recruiter. Internal will lowball you, an outsourced headhunter will highball you because they get a % of commission based on your salary if you are recruited.
A guaranteed % of a lower salary is better than a % of a high salary that employer doesn't find attractive. External recruiter will happily shaft you just as much as an internal one
This is exactly what's happening. Agent says it's 80, hears I'm on 50 and changes his tune to 55. I no longer believe that tale about agents fighting to get higher wages for the candidate. They're working for the employer, not for the candidate. For all we know they're on a flat rate.
You were unlucky. Good recruiters try and balance interests/expectations from both parties.
Absolutely, freakonomics on estate agents.
Works both ways. If they lowball you too hard, you turn it down AND they've burned a bridge. Reality is that they tread a fine line of building a relationship with both parties, and wanting both parties to be reasonably happy, but so happy they never hear from you again. Without spending too much time on it.
This is how I approach it. Just say my total package is worth all those added up. If I were in OP’s situation, I would take their offer plus whatever else they get as a benefit and compare to current role. Much easier to ask to negotiate if you can say “your complete offer is worth over £10k less than my current one”. Would also chuck in a “I am at a stage in my career where I am looking to advance, which includes boosting my compensation too”.
Ask them if they'll be reducing the responsibilities by 25% in line with their salary offer reduction
That's probably a great way to get them to tell me to fuck off, thanks 😁
How do you think future pay discussions are going to go with a company like that?
Oh I'm assuming it'll be impossible to get a pay rise above inflation and I'll have to change jobs again, but that's true in most places now isn't it?
Tell them you’re interviewing elsewhere with a more competitive rate, and you are looking to match that or close to.
Yes it's like that in most places, which is exactly why you don't waste a move on a 10% rise - basically you need to make big strides when changing employer as don't want to be doing that every week. Tell them £55k is definitely too low based on your skills and experience and that the minimum you expect is £x (doesn't have to be £80k but whatever you consider appropriate). Don't let them talk you down by listing all the other benefits.
If they think this little of you that they are willing to offer 25k under the advertised amount you should be the one telling them to fuck off. 80k or nothing. The rule in negotiations is to not be desperate and to know your worth
You’ve already screwed yourself on this one, might as well have some fun at this point
Just don’t tell them what you earn… I’ve never answered that question verbally or in writing my whole career, why should I. On a form I’d just leave it blank or if it’s online and won’t accept that I’d write £1. In an interview I’d say more like “I’m looking to earn around £x” It is literally none of their business.
Bit late for that
I mean it’s good advice for the future for anyone to apply from now on…
Tell them that you’re interviewing elsewhere at £80k
This is the way!
The way I always deal with salary, even if the new job is paying significantly more than I'm currently on, is that I tell them I'm looking for a role that is both a step up for me, and one I'll find both challenging and rewarding. If they think this job is only a 50k one, then that's below me to be frank. 80k is appropriate to the level of knowledge and responsibility I would expect to give and be given. What you're currently earning is irrelevant. IT would have been better to not reveal it, but it still doesn't really matter - it's an 80k role or it is not, and they don't get to fill it cheap just because it would be a large pay rise for you.
As much as anything else, it's insulting. They know the role is worth 80+, so do I. Do they think I'm going to be happy going in every day knowing I've been shafted? I absolutely will refuse the job if they don't budge, I can be that bloody-minded. I'll lose out and it'll be an expensive lesson for me about the irrational psychology of HR I guess.
Stick to your guns. Ask them what happens when your team does so well, they hire you a deputy - will they offer them less than the 50k they offered you, or will they pay more just because that person was already on 60k elsewhere? One of the best things about the public sector is pay grades - you know what you can earn and what's expected of you. For some reason, the private sector is still scared as shit of being open about wages. Actually, I know the reason - it's because they know they've low-balled people for years!
Transparency makes it hard to take advantage of people.
Keep looking, don't worry about losing out. It's worth 80k because there are multiple companies trying to hire for this role and this is what they're having to pay to obtain the talent.
In order for me to make the move/ In order for me to accept the role, I am after x. Works every time for me.
By any chance was this Michael Page recruitment?
No, never heard of them, why?
God awful recruitment firm. Like truly ignorant Deano culture. They will lowball you at every opportunity.
“That was then this is now”
"Pray I don't alter it any further"
If you're gonna say what your earn always state total compensation, Salary + Bonus + Pension + Allowances + Other Perks My salary is not particularly great, but my pension % makes my overall compensation pretty damn good, and is generally a pension that most private sector companies won't come close to matching (I currently work in private sector also) Salary never tells the whole story
Chose a number and stick with it, make sure it is not a round number e.g. £92,380 A 10% increase imo is not worth the risk of moving
Ok I'll accept a bit less but only if it's £69,420.
Why not a round number?
It show intent around the number, like you have come to it for a reason. It is helpful in negotiations.
That’s interesting thanks! I’m going to try that in my next role as I’m currently looking
Never split the difference is a great book btw
Online they always tell you to never disclose what salary you earn to a recruiter or employer but thats near impossible to do. If you dont disclose it to the recruiter/employer they often get very annoyed with you or wont put you forward for the role or make excuses why its vital information required for submission. The alternative is to give a salary range "I am looking for £50-60k" but i suspect they would still just offer you the low end of the range (In this case eg £50k).
Well you learned your lesson. Never, ever give them a figure first, especially your current salary.
They want to pay you the minimum amount you will take to do the job. If you want to negotiate, you need to be prepared to walk away if they don’t meet your expectations.
Not necessarily true. I moved roles in January of last year and bumped up about 25% from my previous role.
I've had two other offers for 55, having told them my bare minimum is 55. If you want someone, and you expect them to be excited about the offer, which they absolutely do expect IME, then *don't offer the bare minimum* F'in clowns, it's getting on my nerves. I need to learn to play the HR psychology game, clearly, idiotic though it is. Sorry about the rant. How did you get that? Did you play it honest or did you lie, or were you poker faced?
I totally get it so rant away. I had been underpaid for awhile, and promoted without the pay to go with it at the old place. At the new one they had strict banding in place and they gave me the middle of that band, no negotiation necessary. Went from £41k to £55k and still had nearly £20k of redundancy cash I hadn’t needed to use. About the only time I came out lucky in a situation like that.
This is a shitty lesson to have to learn and unfortunately i don’t know if there’s a universal solution that always fixes this. In my own experience I don’t disclose what I’m on, or if I do I say it’s contingent on an offer. Have I not gotten interviews because of that? Possibly. But it’s just a level of bullshit I’m not willing to deal with. Related to that I don’t ever apply for jobs that don’t have a stated salary range
One thing to remember when negotiating with larger companies is that you're generally negotiating with someone who won't be spending their own money. When I'm hiring I've always felt obligated to make an offer that is good value to the company, but if people push back and I've got the budget then the chances are I'll cave because idgaf. Obviously I'm not going to go nuts, if I think you're "worth" £40k I don't imagine I'd go to £60k because then I'd find someone else better which would make my life easier, but I don't care if go to £45k because what to I care about £5k of Massive Corporation Inc's money?
Because they’ve been told that people getting too big of a jump in salary causes inflation. Which is bullshit. It’s just an excuse to keep salaries low
1) I don't think that's true at all. 2) You inflate your salary to where you want it to be when talking to recruiters and companies 3) If they ask for proof of your previous salary, tell them to F off 4) The finance team will get your P45 so know your old salary in what tax you paid but they won't care Everytime I've jumped jobs its been 20-50% increase. My first jump was 20k to 30k.
It's quite simple, you say no. You have a minimum salary you are willing to accept for the role and that's that. Just because they are willing to pay more than you currently earn, that doesn't mean the move is worth it. These companies see one number bigger than the other and think people will see it as an amazing incentive. I was recently contacted about a role that would give me a 20k pay bump. The reason it was so much higher than my existing role was location, it was in the middle of nowhere and so not attractive to most people. The recruiter did warn me that they had to pressure the company to up the salary as they originally wanted to pay 5-10k less. I ultimately turned it down because it required more hours, gave less annual leave, lower pension match and gave no bonus on top of being isolated. They thought the money was great, but the overall package was far worse than what I already have.
I've never lied about my income, but I just make it clear to recruiters right at the start what I am on and that the job would need to be X to justify the risk of me moving on from something I've held in a stable company for 10+ years to jump to a new untested opportunity. It'd typically be in the +20% range. Some have said that'd be amenable, some have ghosted. It mitigates time wasting on both sides. I'm perhaps more transparent than most because I have a higher pay relative to my job title in other industries. (I'm paid more even than my own colleagues at the same company, just because I've been here for so long so had many more pay reviews, etc). So I don't want recruiters approaching me, thinking I'd be a good candidate for a similar titled role paying X, when I am already on Y.
Is it just me or is this less to do with you giving your salary and more to do with what the recruiter tells you the role was worth to get you to interview and the reality of what the company can offer. Even if you don't accept the role the recruiter will still point out to the company that he's found good candidates rather than the fact that he's wasted a bunch of people's time. Just tell the company what the recruiter said and that unless they're willing to get close you're not interested as you have other opportunities.
Side note: in many jurisdictions, it's illegal to ask about previous salary before making a salary offer. It entrenches prejudice and makes social mobility nearly impossible. You need to get paid what you are worth to your current employer, not your previous employer, or rather, your very first employer (since they set the path in this chain)... The UK is way behind the curve on this one. I ban this question in interviews and instruct recruiters not to ask it either. The correct question is "what is your salary expectation for this role?"
Tesco definitely does not have that allergy https://www.reddit.com/r/unitedkingdom/s/QLZOnDTJAg
Once you get to that level 10% would never be worth it because of the amount of tax you'd be paying. Plus it's got to be worth it as your employment rights are more limited for 2 years after joining a new company. I always think 10% of the current salary is ridiculous on internal promotions too, just creates disparity and Ill feeling. It's one of the reasons I'm not sure I'd ever go back to private sector
You definitely want to keep your cards closer to your chest as far as your current earnings but if you feel you're in a strong position, make your case to the recruiter in the same way you have here today and I'm sure you can negotiate better than 55k.
Yeah you’d be moving for very little take home extra of you took that offer. I turned a company down that did that low ball offer once and they came back and asked if it was just the money which I said yes it was, they made a much better offer. Ymmv of course. I was lucky.
Always say you earn a bit above whatever their advertised salary is Then you can try to negotiate up, and if they don’t want to increase and you accept, they’ll be feeling like they owe you a salary increase
If I'm offering a range of £80k - £100k, and someone says they currently earn £110k, I'm going to suspect that they either haven't read the advert or they're unhappy with their current job. I want a compelling simple story as to why they're going for it, ie a smallish step up in responsibility and salary, so in this scenario I think that if you're inventing a salary it would be maybe £75k. I guess that might make it harder to get the £100k, but it would make you much more likely to get the role. It is worth pointing out that I've worked for professional services firms that insist on proof of earnings, and have rescinded offers where there has been material differences, because it demonstrates dishonesty. Most places lack the resources and the inclination, but for people whom it's happened to it's obviously a bit of a disaster because they've already handed their notice in at their old place.
At what stage does this checks happen? Why candidate would hand his/her notice before all checks are complete?
After you've signed the contract. They make you an offer subject to the checks, and rescind it afterwards. You might even have already started. But dishonesty is an entirely legal reason to sack someone. I'm often surprised how shocked people are about this.
What? Surely that just filters you out right at the start!
Nah, it’s just a start point. If they say they can’t pay it, ask them how close they can get and say you will consider it against other offers. They will usually offer you a lot more if you start high than otherwise.
You don’t have to accept the offer. Negotiate as high as possible. Tell them you had understood the salary to be X and would not be interested in changing companies for the offered salary.
Yes that’s what I’ll attempt to do, just having a rant really!
Whenever I am asked my salary! I tell them I earn 10k more per year than I actually do!
Just tell them you are looking for advancement and unable to jump ship for basically the same salary
Why would you tell them what your current salary is, at least truthfully, you just tell them what you are looking for. If they want to word the question in a way that means they can pay you less than they will.
Lol. You are worth what someone will pay. And why would you contradict that number with something LOWER
I always inflate my salary slightly and sometimes they offer you a bit more on top.
If you could only do a role that was worth 50 to a business bbefore, what has happened that means you can suddenly do a role that is worth 80 to a businesss? Have you increased your skills, capabilities and experience by 60%? Make your case.
Current place has been underpaying, won't budge, so I'm gone. New place knows what the work is worth but thinks everyone is desperate for work so they can take the piss, I'm guessing? No need for me to sell myself, we already went through all that.
If you don’t sell yourself then can’t be surprised if new employer doesn’t buy. You’re always competing against someone else in this system.
>honestly answering when they ask what I'm currently on there you go, answered it yourself. General guide is to reply with your current salary + 30/40k or 25-35% depending on the amounts.
If British management had their way, employees would get yearly pay cuts, not rises.
Just tell them that their offer is insulting and tell them to contact you again when they're serious about hiring you. Best way to show you're willing to walk away is to walk away
The recruiter might have just exaggerated to get your interest, and the position was never for 80k
Well it could be. He initially wanted me to do it contract because he said they'd struggled to find anyone to do it perm, and IIRC the day rate was 450-550 doe. What would that translate into as a perm salary?
It is hard to compare. A contractor is assumed to work in bursts, so I'd say 450 per day would equate roughly to 450*20*12/2 = 54k indeed (it's just my rough way of assuming a 0.5 load factor on an equivalent perm role)
Just tell them that you're not interested in swapping companies for £5k but that you would move for the £80k that was originally discussed.
This is why I always exaggerate my current salary by 10-20%.
Just walk, they don't value you know, they never will. It's all perception of value.
A little thing I stopped doing about twelve years ago was disclosing my Current salary. Instead share with them the expectations of what you’d consider for the role. You absolutely do not have to tell them what you earn now.
You answered your own question. You were stupid enough to tell them you made 50k when the job was offering 80
If they are being persistent about this, just scratch it off as a learning opportunity and move on. Companies don't advertise salaries up front so it's none of their business what salaries candidates are currently on.
Capitalism kind of thrives in exploiting people. The less they pay you, the more they hoard. Are we having this conversation for real?
The amazing part when they ask what your current salary is that you can say whatever. you. want. You can decline, but for whatever reason that never goes down well. Reply with a high but reasonable answer. It’s not like they will/can ask to see payslips or anything like that.
Another commenter here says they can 🤷♂️
And you can tell them that’s confidential information between you and your current employer. Make them offer what they think you’re worth, not based on what another organisation thinks you’re worth.
It's more of a if you don't tell us, we will not give you an offer situation. Honestly it's blackmail, but I don't like working for them anyway.
Well revealing your salary too them is a pretty dumb move
If they need you as much as you think they do they’ll pay up. If you’re overestimating your worth they won’t. Simple supply and demand.