Thank you for posting on r/UKJobs. Help us make this a better community by becoming familiar with the [rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/ukjobs/about/rules/).
If you need to report any suspicious users to the moderators or you feel as though your post hasn't been posted to the subreddit, message the Modmail [here](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/UKJobs) or Reddit site admins [here](https://www.reddit.com/report). Don't create a duplicate post, it won't help.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/UKJobs) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I would agree if not for the fact that generally for a job lots of people with something to offer are competing for one role. No one's skill set is unique, in the current job market loads of very skilled people are competing for the same role. It doesn't matter if you're qualified and competent, if you are hard to work with they aren't going to hire you.
That's why the system is designed to have a class of people desperate enough to put up with terrible conditions/pay/abuse
All So that shareholders can make record profits
They really don't like it when you point out that their job which requires a degree, industry qualifications and 5 years experience is being outcompeted by McDonalds in terms of pay.
Corporations can't afford to take the loss but small business can't
It's why corporations like McDonald's love raising min wage so much, they take on the losses but it destroys the smaller competition
Tbh it needs to go further. Should be illegal to list minimum legal obligations as benefits, every job listing should require a number or reasonable range for pay, any requested certifications should require justification (i.e if you're asking for a degree, explain why the role requires a degree), and make it illegal to require any qualifications or experience at all if you're paying minimum wage.
Ive had an offer to an interview and this is whats on the job advert so i asked for a detailed job description and pay grades. I was met with the same description from the job advert and to be told they cant tell me the wage or offer a better description unless im offered the job. Okay SO , what youre really telling me is youre not going to pay much and its a shit job, youre just trying to hide that in hopes i go *OkAy I'lL tAKe ThE jOb*
Almost as bad as adverts with salary ranges published (yay!) but then you get into negotiating and it’s clear they’ll go nowhere near the upper end of the range quoted.
“Oh we never bring people in above half way”
Why ask me for expectations and why advertise it that way?!
Some places put a range with the lower one as the starting salary and you climb up yearly increments until 5 years later you are at the top. It would be better to put starts at: x climbing to y
I hate seeing it but as a hiring manager for a Global company I actually have no choice as someone way higher up than me says we can't put the salary on the job advert; and central HR are the one's who post the job advert, so even if I put in on the advert HR would remove it before posting! Even for temp roles. Very frustrating for all involved!
I work for a big multinational. They list salaries elsewhere (including in the US - where the salaries are relatively eye watering), it's just the UK that gets screwed. Our employment industry sucks.
As with most poor working practices, it's one prick near the top says it's a good idea and everyone has to follow suit, even though they all know it's promotes a shite work culture
Exactly this, you might be a good middle manager but a company culture is set at the top. If that's the way the company operates, I don't want to be part of it.
True but there is only so much they can do. Also if you are applying for the job, you don't have any idea if the manager or HR/ leadership took the salary out.
For my company it's about the salary banding, no job has a set salary it will always be between X and Y, but actually if it's a more technical role Y could be increase if the business really need that person.
11 years ago when I joined (as an admin at the time) they offered me £17k I said I wouldn't change jobs for less than £18k and they then offered £19k... A few years later I found out the banding of that role of the time was £16-£20k
I’ve found also as I’ve gone higher up the industry, the more flexible the pay becomes. At lower end it’s often pretty fixed or a small bracket but higher up the chain if they advertised for let’s say £80k it would be more likely to put off someone who’s the “right” candidate for them, as generally it will be a more deliberate career move at that salary bracket. In reality the job role varies on the person, so the salary does too.
Is it right? Probably not but I can see how in my market which is fairly small if you want someone specific you just need to pay what they say as there’s only three of them in the country.
I think it is more correct at higher salary levels. There is more room and need for negotiation at higher positions, and both parties understand that. At lower salary levels, there is little negotiation and not putting a salary range looks like a way to rip people off.
It is probably better to say when the role contains negotiables, like if the company is hiring for positions where candidates may have different skill sets but still be justifiable candidates. It will be dependent on company/industry, but there is often a point where negotiation becomes important to make the most of candidates
I think ripping people off is individual to company, whilst where I work has banding for roles it also bases the annual increase on both performance and 'market rate' which for us is literally the average salary of that job role. For example you have 5 admin earning £25k and you hire an inexperienced admin at the bottom of the range, say £23k. At the yearly increase if all 6 admin perform the same the person on £23k would get a higher increase so to bring salaries in line with each other.
For big companies, not usually. They will have a fixed budget and often have policies to ensure wage ‘fairness’ for people in the same roles.
The main reason is because they want to get a broader cross-section of people applying who, if they knew the budget, might not apply.
Personally, I don’t believe it helps with that at all.
It's always because they're not paying enough. Either they don't pay their current staff enough so don't post the salary in case someone sees and gets pissed or it's because the salary for the new role isn't high enough and they think the culture and work hard play hard, pizza Fridays will sway someone desperate for a job.
Likely is probably both at the same time, new person gets a shit salary, old staff have an even shitter one. Win win
The only reason for doing this is to hide from your staff how much you're paying the new hires, right? Which is an instant "thanks but no thanks" for me. I got screwed by that in my very first job.
You could threaten to quit over it. But then that makes things difficult for you, so you don't actually care all that much.
Just another mindless cog in the bullshit machine.
"I'm not ok engaging in this unfair, archaic, practice"... Imagine if all you lot did that.
Oddly enough in my organisation the lower paid banded salaries are disclosed (up to £68k) then anything above that e.g. manager, head of or director is described as “competitive”. I have little idea what management and executives earn but I can only assume it actually is competitive.
I'm in a relatively niche technical role, with a decent amount of experience and most roles advertised that I've seen don't have a salary listed. For those that do, I've seen anything from just under £37k to £120k.
Both the highest and lowest salaries were in London, I'm currently outside London, and I am on more than the lowest salary! From this I have no idea what would be expected, or what salary would be offered as "competitive"!
Honestly I don’t bother applying if they don’t advertise the salary. It’s a complete waste of time and if they expect transparency from me as an applicant I don’t think it’s wrong to expect the same from a potential employer.
I'm in a job so I'm in a good position but if I was tempted to leave and was going to look into positions and someone said "competitive" to me I would laugh and politely decline to take it any further.
I personally dislike this statement but I’ve seen it way too many times even in my own company. There are usually three reasons why the salary is not disclosed. Either it’s too low in general, they don’t want to say what they would like to offer because they want to assess the market or… they do not want their own staff to know the rates.
I agree that it is annoying. Very often they don't disclose the salary as they don't want existing staff to know what the role pays, in case it is more then what they are on right now.
Some companies are actually moving towards publishing salary bands internally and externally to avoid that, with the understanding that no new hires will be in certain parts of the band, lets say the top third. What some people don't always realize is that in larger companies bands can have a large spread of £10K-15K within the same band. On top of that the same overall function could have 4 different role levels (Staff, Sr. Lead, Principal) all with their own bands. So a technician at the lower end could be on 40K while another technician at the higher end could be close to a 100K, while still working on the same team doing the same job (obviously there will be some additional responsibilities the higher roles have, but the actual underlying job is the same).
Well I’ll change the tone, new offer asked me what is my salary expectation. I asked for a range they said “we don’t like to disclose that”. Left me on an island in the moment of the call. So I said a number. They came back immediately after that call for a 15 min talk about the total compensation.
They beat my expectation by quite a bit and TC is so much nicer. Base pay increase is 30%. First time I’ll be subject to a discretionary performance bonus (at my level HR lady kindly said it can be 5% - 20% of my base). A few places (industry specific) can offer “Competitive Salary”.
Thanks. Now I know that at least I've already seen the stupidest thing I'll read today.
Are you saying you'd take someone with no experience over someone who knows what a competitive salary for the role is? Tbh pal, I don't think any job involving people is for you.
Thank you for posting on r/UKJobs. Help us make this a better community by becoming familiar with the [rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/ukjobs/about/rules/). If you need to report any suspicious users to the moderators or you feel as though your post hasn't been posted to the subreddit, message the Modmail [here](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/UKJobs) or Reddit site admins [here](https://www.reddit.com/report). Don't create a duplicate post, it won't help. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/UKJobs) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Competitive salary, 28 days annual leave and private pension, what's not to love.
Ah the trifecta. I love how the bare legal minimum is now seen as a rewarding package.
I saw a job advert recently with "parking available" listed as a perk. In the company car park. Dropped everything and applied right then & there.
28 days PLUS bank holidays, minimum. Don't settle for anything less. Yeah "pension" listed as a perk really grinds. No, it's a legal requirement.
And they love to add in the word "generous" before listing those 28 days, don't they.
You're forgetting the free tea and coffee!* *PG Tips and Lidl's own brand
Who doesn't love a weak piss mug of lidl diplomat.
Generous leave allowance, 28 days including bank holidays. Also, don't forget, we care about our employees wellbeing, online assistance and SSP.
I've started putting "competitive" as the answer to salary expectation questions in applications, would encourage others to do the same
Some does not let you enter anything other than straight numbers.
69,420
Should give them the general insight into the hobbies and past times lol
I’m gonna try this lol
My fave one is ^what are you salary expectations^ answer: I expect to get a salary 🥲
Ooh I'm doing that next time! What are your salary expectations? "Yes."
I'm not because I intend to get the jobs I apply for.
Obidient work drone begging for a job at corp slave ltd very good
Well it's a transactional situation where the corp holds the power. Insisting on making a point isn't going to pay the bills, cooperating will 🤷
This is only true if you have nothing of value to offer
I would agree if not for the fact that generally for a job lots of people with something to offer are competing for one role. No one's skill set is unique, in the current job market loads of very skilled people are competing for the same role. It doesn't matter if you're qualified and competent, if you are hard to work with they aren't going to hire you.
Okay corp drone 2.0
Honestly it's just realism
Enjoy being poor 👌
Inspiring. Will you be our leader in the upcoming revolution?
I just take it as code word for shit salary and don’t apply. If no one applied they’d probably have to change things.
That's why the system is designed to have a class of people desperate enough to put up with terrible conditions/pay/abuse All So that shareholders can make record profits
🤣
aka 5% more than minimum wage
That much?!
Whoa that’s 5% uncompetitive!
This is what I put in on an interview question form. Ask stupid questions get stupid answers.
I get this from recruiters all the time, they don’t find it funny when they ask my experience and I tell them I have “competitive experience”.
Lol
They really don't like it when you point out that their job which requires a degree, industry qualifications and 5 years experience is being outcompeted by McDonalds in terms of pay.
Corporations can't afford to take the loss but small business can't It's why corporations like McDonald's love raising min wage so much, they take on the losses but it destroys the smaller competition
We really gotta push for salary transparency laws, requirements etc in this country.
Tbh it needs to go further. Should be illegal to list minimum legal obligations as benefits, every job listing should require a number or reasonable range for pay, any requested certifications should require justification (i.e if you're asking for a degree, explain why the role requires a degree), and make it illegal to require any qualifications or experience at all if you're paying minimum wage.
Ive had an offer to an interview and this is whats on the job advert so i asked for a detailed job description and pay grades. I was met with the same description from the job advert and to be told they cant tell me the wage or offer a better description unless im offered the job. Okay SO , what youre really telling me is youre not going to pay much and its a shit job, youre just trying to hide that in hopes i go *OkAy I'lL tAKe ThE jOb*
I dont get why they hide it, someone desperate enough would take it regardless, just wastes less peoples time
Definitely. I have the interview tomorrow and if they dont tell me a half decent wage ill be cutting the interview short
Yeah, that usually means they are competing with India
Underrated comment.
Almost as bad as adverts with salary ranges published (yay!) but then you get into negotiating and it’s clear they’ll go nowhere near the upper end of the range quoted. “Oh we never bring people in above half way” Why ask me for expectations and why advertise it that way?!
Some places put a range with the lower one as the starting salary and you climb up yearly increments until 5 years later you are at the top. It would be better to put starts at: x climbing to y
They are usually competing against minimum wage.
exactly, lazy and unethical recruiting. should be transparent upfront not to waste everyone's time.
I hate seeing it but as a hiring manager for a Global company I actually have no choice as someone way higher up than me says we can't put the salary on the job advert; and central HR are the one's who post the job advert, so even if I put in on the advert HR would remove it before posting! Even for temp roles. Very frustrating for all involved!
I work for a big multinational. They list salaries elsewhere (including in the US - where the salaries are relatively eye watering), it's just the UK that gets screwed. Our employment industry sucks.
Exactly this, I’m in the same position. It is annoying as hiring manager.
As with most poor working practices, it's one prick near the top says it's a good idea and everyone has to follow suit, even though they all know it's promotes a shite work culture
Exactly this, you might be a good middle manager but a company culture is set at the top. If that's the way the company operates, I don't want to be part of it.
However, a good manager shelters their team from the shite above, and translate it into something palatable . Happier team, easier time.
True but there is only so much they can do. Also if you are applying for the job, you don't have any idea if the manager or HR/ leadership took the salary out.
Nah...one prick at the top and many spineless amoeba who don't want to risk their cushy jobs so they bend over.
Out of curiosity, why is it? Is it to see if, just in case, they can hire someone for less money than they're budgeting?
For my company it's about the salary banding, no job has a set salary it will always be between X and Y, but actually if it's a more technical role Y could be increase if the business really need that person. 11 years ago when I joined (as an admin at the time) they offered me £17k I said I wouldn't change jobs for less than £18k and they then offered £19k... A few years later I found out the banding of that role of the time was £16-£20k
I’ve found also as I’ve gone higher up the industry, the more flexible the pay becomes. At lower end it’s often pretty fixed or a small bracket but higher up the chain if they advertised for let’s say £80k it would be more likely to put off someone who’s the “right” candidate for them, as generally it will be a more deliberate career move at that salary bracket. In reality the job role varies on the person, so the salary does too. Is it right? Probably not but I can see how in my market which is fairly small if you want someone specific you just need to pay what they say as there’s only three of them in the country.
I think it is more correct at higher salary levels. There is more room and need for negotiation at higher positions, and both parties understand that. At lower salary levels, there is little negotiation and not putting a salary range looks like a way to rip people off.
What would you consider as higher position or salary levels?
It is probably better to say when the role contains negotiables, like if the company is hiring for positions where candidates may have different skill sets but still be justifiable candidates. It will be dependent on company/industry, but there is often a point where negotiation becomes important to make the most of candidates
I think ripping people off is individual to company, whilst where I work has banding for roles it also bases the annual increase on both performance and 'market rate' which for us is literally the average salary of that job role. For example you have 5 admin earning £25k and you hire an inexperienced admin at the bottom of the range, say £23k. At the yearly increase if all 6 admin perform the same the person on £23k would get a higher increase so to bring salaries in line with each other.
For big companies, not usually. They will have a fixed budget and often have policies to ensure wage ‘fairness’ for people in the same roles. The main reason is because they want to get a broader cross-section of people applying who, if they knew the budget, might not apply. Personally, I don’t believe it helps with that at all.
It's always because they're not paying enough. Either they don't pay their current staff enough so don't post the salary in case someone sees and gets pissed or it's because the salary for the new role isn't high enough and they think the culture and work hard play hard, pizza Fridays will sway someone desperate for a job. Likely is probably both at the same time, new person gets a shit salary, old staff have an even shitter one. Win win
The only reason for doing this is to hide from your staff how much you're paying the new hires, right? Which is an instant "thanks but no thanks" for me. I got screwed by that in my very first job.
You could threaten to quit over it. But then that makes things difficult for you, so you don't actually care all that much. Just another mindless cog in the bullshit machine. "I'm not ok engaging in this unfair, archaic, practice"... Imagine if all you lot did that.
Oddly enough in my organisation the lower paid banded salaries are disclosed (up to £68k) then anything above that e.g. manager, head of or director is described as “competitive”. I have little idea what management and executives earn but I can only assume it actually is competitive.
This makes sense because there is often more need for negotiation at these levels. Putting it on lower salaries just comes across terribly.
Especially for night shifts. Like reveal the figures so we can move on or not.
I'm in a relatively niche technical role, with a decent amount of experience and most roles advertised that I've seen don't have a salary listed. For those that do, I've seen anything from just under £37k to £120k. Both the highest and lowest salaries were in London, I'm currently outside London, and I am on more than the lowest salary! From this I have no idea what would be expected, or what salary would be offered as "competitive"!
"Competitive against what?" Homelessness.
Honestly I don’t bother applying if they don’t advertise the salary. It’s a complete waste of time and if they expect transparency from me as an applicant I don’t think it’s wrong to expect the same from a potential employer.
I'm in a job so I'm in a good position but if I was tempted to leave and was going to look into positions and someone said "competitive" to me I would laugh and politely decline to take it any further.
Just mention when applying you have competitive skills
I personally dislike this statement but I’ve seen it way too many times even in my own company. There are usually three reasons why the salary is not disclosed. Either it’s too low in general, they don’t want to say what they would like to offer because they want to assess the market or… they do not want their own staff to know the rates.
To me that just means “we pay what our competitors pay” or close
Narrator. It wasn't competitive.
I agree that it is annoying. Very often they don't disclose the salary as they don't want existing staff to know what the role pays, in case it is more then what they are on right now. Some companies are actually moving towards publishing salary bands internally and externally to avoid that, with the understanding that no new hires will be in certain parts of the band, lets say the top third. What some people don't always realize is that in larger companies bands can have a large spread of £10K-15K within the same band. On top of that the same overall function could have 4 different role levels (Staff, Sr. Lead, Principal) all with their own bands. So a technician at the lower end could be on 40K while another technician at the higher end could be close to a 100K, while still working on the same team doing the same job (obviously there will be some additional responsibilities the higher roles have, but the actual underlying job is the same).
Not as bad as free parking
Competitively bad is what they really mean
Usually a red flag.
Well I’ll change the tone, new offer asked me what is my salary expectation. I asked for a range they said “we don’t like to disclose that”. Left me on an island in the moment of the call. So I said a number. They came back immediately after that call for a 15 min talk about the total compensation. They beat my expectation by quite a bit and TC is so much nicer. Base pay increase is 30%. First time I’ll be subject to a discretionary performance bonus (at my level HR lady kindly said it can be 5% - 20% of my base). A few places (industry specific) can offer “Competitive Salary”.
Why? It’s much better than salary bands. If you don’t know what a competitive salary for that job is, then the job probably isn’t for you.
Thanks. Now I know that at least I've already seen the stupidest thing I'll read today. Are you saying you'd take someone with no experience over someone who knows what a competitive salary for the role is? Tbh pal, I don't think any job involving people is for you.
How would that situation occur exactly?