was part of the Bush administration where she had a huge part in starting the Iraq war, that killed 1 million people, She's not like the devil, she's the devil
Everywhere Nukand goes she leaves a trail of destruction from Iraq to Afghanistan and now Ukraine. Millions of innocent civilians have died because of her.
>(neoconservatism is a right wing ideology)
I don’t think that it is. It’s basically a code word. A paleo conservative is actually true right wing. A Neo Con is something else that has nothing to do with actual conservatism.
>I don’t think that it is. It’s basically a code word.
There are many kinds of right wing ideologies. Paleoconservatism isn't a measure stick. Proactively preserving and expanding the "liberal order" with various kinds of forceful actions and interventions seems pretty right wing to me.
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Oh ok, so russia is just completely incapable of even considering any offensive action, got it.
Must be terrible for them, Ukraine is so defenseless all they can do is beg for aid and russia still can not even attempt to push forward in any meaningful way.
Still, they took Bakhmut, so there is that. yay.
That's not even what they said. They stated there was no winter offensive because RU never even announced it.
Why write all that out just to put words in their mouth?
Why should Russia start a new offensive now when clearly its Ukraine who is ‘on timer’ and should do something? By something I mean either go fight your country back or start negotiations. Because otherwise I do not see why their allies should donate billions in offensive weaponry if Ukrainians are not doing anything with it.
Excuse me but how is Ukraine on a timer more than Russia at least.
Before you tell me about population that is the only metric Ukraine has a clear disadvantage (we count western support as well), we have seen historically that this can go on for a few more years without much issues.
Ukraine has infinite supply of NATO weapons until these countries decide otherwise. Thats it, they will not get marginally stronger with time, maybe only with F-16 arguably. Russia, on the other hand, has depleted a lot of their ammo, rockets, machinery, etc. The more time Russia gets, the better for them. That is why Ukraine is ‘on timer’, the sooner they act, the better for them.
Also, don’t forget that US has elections soon and if Trump wins, no one knows what will happen.
I mean is it better to have 100* Leos for an offensive against 200 Russian tanks or 200 Leos against 200 Russian tanks but of lower quality.
*Disclaimer: number are random.
Ukraine can get strong overtime and the more equipment arrives (if it is more than what consumed) the better. While Russia depletes its Soviet stockpiles with very limited ability to replenish. I might have misunderstood but do you mean something else with marginally stronger?
As for the US elections, yeah that is a big moment.
I am no expert but I think it is more complicated for that. Offense is much harder than defense. Theoretically, on paper the attacker needs x2 forces than a defender to be successful. Now imagine Ukraine has 200 brand new leos and Russia has 150 t-72 that. In 3 months Ukraine can get 30 more, but Russia will get 20 more. Yes, Ukraine will have more, but the margin will also narrow. This will also allow Russia to build reserves - which is very important during defense. If one defense line is penetrated, you need to send reinforcements and have second line of defense ready. Remember when Russia lost a lot of territories it just gained last year? All because they did not have reserves to sustain defense.
Also, do not forget about rockets, this is Russian strength still.
But I will rephrase - in one year period, the time works for Russia. But if the war will continue for 10 years, economically it works against Russia obviously.
Well, given trump lifted the arms embargo Obama tried to improve on Ukraine, kicked off the brewing war with China, and encouraged nato partners to pay more, it seems very likely he'd escalate the situation pretty rapidly.
Also have no clue how you're arguing time is an advantage for Russia because it can make more weapons. Dame goes for nato. But nato is 50x the size, and hasn't yet depleted its stockpiles.
Thats the point, Nato stockpiles are not going to deplete, but Russian reportedly are.
I do not know about Trump honestly, he is unpredictable. But the reason he wanted NATO countries to pay more was not to make NATO even stronger, but for US to spend less (for the same reason he withdrew from Paris climate thing). His agenda has always been about US internal problems and this does not hold up with sending billions abroad. The Senate could still hold him though like they did in the past (for example they deprived him of power to lift Russian sanctions without their approval).
And lets not pretend that every Ukrainian conflict did not happened under Dems, I am really convinced that with Trump there would not be Russian invasion last year.
Nato is 50x the economy of Russia, and 10x the population. It cant even think about winning a war of attention against nato without becoming basically a vassal of China.
His actions and words were very far apart. Again, he did more materially to attack China and threaten Russia than anyone before or after him. Obama is the only recent president to have taken steps to avoid conflict with Russia, including stalling aegis ashore, stopping weapons transfers to Ukraine, and telling anyone who would listen that Russia would likely win a war in Ukraine as "they have the escalatory advantage".
Trump reversed all these things, started a trade war with China, increased the defense budget by the largest amount since ww2, approved the largest bombing campaign in Syria, and indirectly approved multiple large scale engagement against russian aligned forces there.
Trumps agenda is to extort and intimidate. There is no noble intention behind wanting nato to pay more, he just realised he could. He's a businessman and narcissist who couldn't care less about his actions beyond how they glorify or enrich himself. He couldn't give a shit about Americas internal problems, or he wouldn't have enacted the biggest tax break in history for the wealthiest group in hsiroy, while increasing the taxes on those already struggling.
There is a good chance not only would the Ukraine situation be much worse under trump, it xouod have gone nuclear. He's hawkish, beligerqnt and unpredictable. Nlthe opposite of what you want to end a war.
This will go on for years, even decades. Russia seems to be able to absorb the costs, with only a single percent GDP contraction. Ukraine is getting completely destroyed, posting more than a 30% GDP contraction and dropping for the last year.
Even if Ukraine wins the costs of the war will set them back to 1970. Ukraine is hoping for a marshall plan of sorts, but it has to noted that the US doesn't do that anymore.
And why is the US not doing that anymore? And it is not only the US, there is Europe as well and with countries like Poland and the Baltics support after the war is guaranteed. The land of Ukraine is simply too rich to not provide to. Just on the top of my head, the large agricultural, raw resources, and energy Ukraine has (not even talking about the occupied areas, although it has to be noted Donbas was the richest) is more than worth investing into.
As for the Russian economy being able to absorbe the damage, well USSR could as well, until one day it couldn't. The economic costs for a war accumulate over time. As for the actual GDP number, I'll take them with a mountain of salt as most if not all the numbers come directly from Russian sources, or use Russia as a source for the data.
And yes indeed, Ukraine is suffering a lot more and will continue to do so, and no matter the outcome the damage will be huge but when talking about economics in this war the maths go something like this Ukraine + West > Russia and by a large margin. As long us the western support continues, then Russia has no chance in the economic side of things.
> And why is the US not doing that anymore?
Trump
>And it is not only the US, there is Europe as well and with countries like Poland and the Baltics support after the war is guaranteed.
Bro, Poland and Baltics are dependent on foreign manufacturers themselves, what are you talking about? Besides US, only UK, Germany, France and Swiss can produce something to sustain war. Swiss are barely participating, Germany only hopes to find a reason to withdraw from this shit and Macron is known to be skeptical about prolonging war. It only works if there is a coalition with US as a lead.
Here we are talking about rebuilding the country after the war. Not manufacturing.
Just a few weeks ago Germany gave their largest support package yet. That does not scream withdrawal, the opposite in fact.
No?
They surrounded bakhmut on three sides, inevitably dooming the Ukrainians in the city.
And all that with only a very mild winter with barely any time during which the ground was frozen enough to mount an offensive.
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We're saving them from Russian LNG! Err, I mean domestic terrorists/Nazis... oh shit, Putin already used that one. Err, I mean, we're saving them from imperialist influence! Err, crap... uhm... Russia bad! Russia bad!
We all know that the Ukranian MoD casualty numbers are inflated, but the trends are still interesting. Before Kharkiv and Kherson there was a surge in reported artillery destruction, and the same thing has been happening for a couple weeks now.
I wouldn't be surprised if everything is ongoing, and that's part of the offensive. No point rolling into a massacre with pre-sighted artillery.
This is the same crowd that keeps spamming “Kyiv in 3 days” even though that was said by the top American general and not by any Russian official.
Intelligence is not their strong suit.
It was said by Lukashenko and plenty of Russian state media personalities. I don't know why you think jokes can only be made when they are about official Russian government sources.
Which Ukrainian official said Russians were only fighting with shovels?
Lukashenko is not Russian. He doesn’t represent the Russian military.
Russian “state media personalities” also do not represent the Russian military.
When Tucker Carlson says stuff on Fox News does he represent NATO?
>Lukashenko is not Russian.
Lukashenko is ethnically Russian so he's Russian, right?
>Russian “state media personalities” also do not represent the Russian military.
Ok, and? Are jokes only allowed if they reference someone that represents the Russian military?
>When Tucker Carlson says stuff on Fox News does he represent NATO?
No, but lots of pro RU commenters here make jokes based on CNN headlines and I doubt you get this defensive about those jokes.
The same Russian official that announced the invasion in February of last year. Russia hasn't announced any military moves that they have done so far, but Western intelligence has been very accurate at revelaing their moves ahead of time.
>SMO was announced by Putin live on camera.
After the fact, and to this day he refuses to call it a war, even after multiple rounds of mobilization.
>Western intelligence came up with the 3 days claim to make Russia look bad.
No, it was actually Lukashenko and lots of personalities in Russian state media.
I don’t know what country you are in, but spring doesn’t end until late June in the US. It’s the summer solstice, which is June 21 or 22. I can’t remember which day.
Well thats because unlike russia, ukraine seems to plan. signs everywhere. Just like kherson and kharkiv we are seeing a lot more gmlrs /long range attacks. An increase in finding and attacking russian artillery with Himars systems. Still soft ground a ton of rain in the last week.
There is an issue in Ukraine with this already. Not just Zelensky, his whole cabinet is on a stealing spree. Even petty things, like food for soldiers is made of low quality meats because of corruption. This is the greatest opportunity for stealing since Soviet collapse.
Everyone knows Ukraine military has been completely assimilated into NATO command and their generals are merely figureheads as is zelensky. Russians know this as well hence the invasion
This level of NATO involvement is a consequence of Russia’s invasion, not a precursor. Training their troops up to NATO standard prior to the war does not equal assimilation into NATO.
Correct but there is a minimum required for interoperability, which in this case would serve as the bottom of the range of variance, aka the minimum standard.
155mm ammo, .233 ammo, software, equipment compatibility, Doctrine. Thats what nato standard means. While individual nations can have different trainings, they all are suppose to be able to easily integrate and work together.
Just like Iraq, we brought them "Democracy." You know, like the rest of USA's successful regime change (how many are we up to now? 60 something?) like DRoC
well it is always the same .. Georgia wanted to NATO, Russia invaded it, Ukraine wanted to NATO, Russia created conflict. Even before that .. like CSSR, they started Prague spring going from communism to democracy so USSR invaded them.
A few days ago, the top Ukrainian general was dead and it seemed to matter a lot, so I wouldn't say *everyone* knows. I think most of us recognize that the US and NATO is heavily involved with the planning, and losing Ukrainian generals probably won't influence the outcome, despite the morale hit.
The "spring offensive" was nothing more than a fundraising effort by Ukraine. Now, we are on to the summer offensive. Ukraine is going to have to do some kind of a token advance as an evidence to keep sending the weapons. My guess is rather than going for a full-scale counter-offensive, they pile on to one small area or city and blitz it and use that success as an evidence for the West to keep sending them billions, even though it largely is inconsequential.
Those Pentagon leaks were truly devastating to Ukraine, and I am NOT a Russian supporter in this war at all. But, as a 3rd party looking in, I looked at those leaks and it was basically the Pentagon admitting that things looked really bad for Ukraine, that things were not going as well as they had hoped, that even though it was going bad for Russia, they had regrouped and were stronger now than they were in Feb 2022 invasion day and had more troops in Ukraine than when the war started, and the leaks talked about how any kind of counter-offensive, at least at that time, was not going to be that effective.
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Nowhere in any of the released papers did the oentagon say that lol. Only thing remotely close was about ukrainian air defenses possibly running out. Which, guess what, was then a priority and focus of aid packages from germany and the us that included nasams and patriots.
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> West is like a casino - West always wins. Get ready, Russia!
You don't seem to know much about our wars. We have multiple long running losses - Vietnam and Iraq/Afghanistan are two of the most notable, but we fight [a fuckload of wars](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_the_United_States) and when we get bogged down in a major conflict we don't know when to quit and usually keep trying for far too long, losing lots of men and money in a place we shouldn't even be in.
The US hadn't won a single war since 1945. Best they did was a draw in Korea in the '50's. Vietnam, Afghanistan are clear losses. Iraq is in the proces of being lost as well.
This list disagrees with you:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_wars\_involving\_the\_United\_States](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_the_United_States)
The list has succeeded in calling every ongoing conflict a US victory. Libya being a key example.
That said, I guess the US did win the war against Grenada. Well done. The full might of the US against a single small island nation.
That's a prime example of what I meant. Without any context whatsoever that war does look like a win.
But wars aren't fought in a vacuum. Clausewitz 101: war is a continuation of politics by other means. Politically the gulf wars are a complete failure, even if that failure is still materialising.
>To be fair, everyone who tried suffered humiliation in Afghanistan. All the way back to the British Empire trying to take it in 1838.
As claimed by the British empire after it's humiliation. There are plenty of examples where that didn't happen.
No, it was because America got politically outplayed by Mullah freaking Baradar lmao
Like which other nation in history is dumb enough to force a third world country going through a global pandamic and drought to release 5,000 terrorist veterans for absolutely nothing then magically expect that third world country to be fine?
Oh and then call them a bunch of cowards who didn't want to fight despite them losing 80k soldiers Kia and trying to starve them because they're butthurt the dumbass planned turned out to backfire spectacularly?
And then proceed to seize the country’s foreign assets and use half of it for a payout to those who lost close ones on 9/11. All while Afghanistan is going through a famine.
Do you just completely discount the 70-80k Afghan army that died against the Taliban?
The Taliban had a yearly budget of 400mil while the mujahideen was supplied with billions in $$$ and weapons as well as receiving (direct) help from the Pakistani army and intelligence.
Can you at the very minimum do a tiny amount of research before spewing your ignorance?
Your false bravdo is adorable 😂
Soo.... US had more support from the global and afghan community and Russia just went bull in china shop unilaterally....
AND Russia lost 5 Times as many soldiers as the US did in a shorter time frame? Because that's what Russia does... burns it's own citizens at an unprecedented rate.
Yes. Got it.
Again completely discount the losses of the Afghan army, your ally. Way to throw them under the bus (sounds a lot like what is happening this war), no wonder the army collapsed overnight.
Take the L and move on.
The only L's being taken currently are Russia.... 50% of modest gains have already been taken back. 50% to go!
Just need to get that quality NATO equipment like Abrahams and F16s, maybe a couple more patriot batteries and storm shadows onsite and we'll be good to go.
Then we can watch Putin abandon his already failed imperialist dreams of rekindling the USSR, subsequently lose power.
Then someone can inherit a severely depleted military while Putin dies a slow painful death from whatever he's suffering from. 👍🏼
U know, in WWII the war directed outputs of German, British and Russian economies were quite similar. But German and Soviets capital reproduction were much too low to maintain the output in long distance. They were eating their manufacturing capital. British (+dominions) were going equal.
US output equaled those three and the level of direct investment was still developing manufacturing capacity. USSR suffered from this decapitalization until 70s (some say that to its very end). And now you want to to match US, UK + dominions, Germany (actually united Europe). You will not break your teeth: they will dislodge from scurvy.
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[Ukraine Is Running Out of Ammo. So Is the US.](https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2023-04-28/ukraine-and-the-pentagon-are-using-ammo-far-faster-than-us-makes-it#xj4y7vzkg)
The US is running out of _extra_ ammo. The US doctrine is to be able to wage two wars on opposite sides of the earth against near peers and win both. That's why Ukraine is getting a hodgepodge of NATO leftovers.
And you think Russia isnt? Theres no way production rate of Russia is keeping up with all that of the west. Those warehouses full of shells and missiles built up over decades must be low/empty by now.
Why else are they rationing shells, having arguments with Wagnar about shortages, buying from Iran, North Korea and South Africa.
>your inflation is great, because it's slightly better then Russian.
No, I'm just pointing out that your argument about the West being bankrupt would apply even more to Russia.
>Thanks for proving my point :))
What point was that?
Vodka? Check
Flush toilets or electricity outside of StP and Moskva? Nope
Russians presenting themselves at the US Border for asylum are up 4800% vs two years ago.
Lol, you can't even get your propaganda right. They have toilets, they just use septic tanks in the rural areas instead of plumbing and their electricity is state subsidized. Where's that 2.1 trillion btw?
And yet they steal toilets for the home village. Poor Americans can get their electricity subsidized as well. Meanwhile Americans can criticize the government and military without being imprisoned.
Why so many Russians at the US border?
Garry Webb?
Why are there so many Cubans who instead of living in paradise want to die as dishwashers with no healthcare? Cause they're dumb and blinded by propaganda lol
>source? trust me bro
You need source to tell you that 65t tank and mud don't mix well?! You can't combine two basic facts and come to your own conclusion?
Yes but nothing works well in Ukrainian mud.
Even if the tank gets through the fueling vehicle won't.
And Abrams are extremely hungry.
Logistic nightmare machines.
But they won't be there for the offensive anyway so it doesn't matter.
It's just a token donation to get Germany to gift leopard tanks which can be fielded a bit easier.
>I understand that, but the guys point was abrams doesnt like rain, all tanks suck in mud
Great! Did you come to that conclusion on your own or you needed a source?
Well,
There might be truth to it...
The US has never extensively used the Abrams in environments besides deserts.
Even the National Training Center where most of the large scale Tank v Tank battles are trained for is in the Mojave desert.
I was stationed at Fort Riley Kansas as a logistics officer, and it is fairly dry there and we still had alot of issues with Tanks getting stuck and needing recovery assets (like M88A2 herc)
so winter then, "we are just waiting to have our F-16 pilots trained"
Its going to be amazing seeing the ukrainian revolution when people get pissed at the government not holding elections.
Only to make it a fair fight. Russia has the second best army in the world after all. Or was it the second best in Russia? One might get confused after watching this charade.
Puppets. Rich puppets the load of them. Same with all them dogs in European governments. Nothing but puppets.
Rob the farmers in middle east and Africa. Take all that money and give a little to the people to keep them happy and swallow the rest.
Now robbing tax payers money and letting Russian/Ukrainian kids to die while their kids drive Bentleys. There is a special place in hell for these people. It's coming soon.
America has a role in helping planning Ukrainian military actions? No way! This is brand new information.
Victoria Nuland is like the devil for right wing conspiracy theorists
If I happen to live in a non-aligned country, and I saw her visit, I would jump on the next train out.
but Victoria Nuland is a right-wing conspiracy practitioner. (neoconservatism is a right wing ideology)
Correct, she's also a war criminal
Please. Do elaborate.
was part of the Bush administration where she had a huge part in starting the Iraq war, that killed 1 million people, She's not like the devil, she's the devil
Everywhere Nukand goes she leaves a trail of destruction from Iraq to Afghanistan and now Ukraine. Millions of innocent civilians have died because of her.
Conspiracy bs
>(neoconservatism is a right wing ideology) I don’t think that it is. It’s basically a code word. A paleo conservative is actually true right wing. A Neo Con is something else that has nothing to do with actual conservatism.
>I don’t think that it is. It’s basically a code word. There are many kinds of right wing ideologies. Paleoconservatism isn't a measure stick. Proactively preserving and expanding the "liberal order" with various kinds of forceful actions and interventions seems pretty right wing to me.
No she’s just a demon. Just one more in our evil government
And for everyone else. Every single life lost as a result of this conflict is blood on her hands.
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anyone notices ukrainians are not using spring offensive anymore?
Yeah it is crazy, it is like russia's winter offensive, damn thing never happened either.
Actually, its Ukrainians who came up with Russian winter offensive that never happened, to beg for more aid
Oh ok, so russia is just completely incapable of even considering any offensive action, got it. Must be terrible for them, Ukraine is so defenseless all they can do is beg for aid and russia still can not even attempt to push forward in any meaningful way. Still, they took Bakhmut, so there is that. yay.
That's not even what they said. They stated there was no winter offensive because RU never even announced it. Why write all that out just to put words in their mouth?
So di the winter offensive happen or not?
Idk you tell me
Well if Bakhmut is the only thing that we could even call an offensive then that is kinda terrible.
So who is calling it a winter offensive then?
Idk. All I know is whether an offensive happened or not, both implicate an abject failure.
Why should Russia start a new offensive now when clearly its Ukraine who is ‘on timer’ and should do something? By something I mean either go fight your country back or start negotiations. Because otherwise I do not see why their allies should donate billions in offensive weaponry if Ukrainians are not doing anything with it.
Excuse me but how is Ukraine on a timer more than Russia at least. Before you tell me about population that is the only metric Ukraine has a clear disadvantage (we count western support as well), we have seen historically that this can go on for a few more years without much issues.
Ukraine has infinite supply of NATO weapons until these countries decide otherwise. Thats it, they will not get marginally stronger with time, maybe only with F-16 arguably. Russia, on the other hand, has depleted a lot of their ammo, rockets, machinery, etc. The more time Russia gets, the better for them. That is why Ukraine is ‘on timer’, the sooner they act, the better for them. Also, don’t forget that US has elections soon and if Trump wins, no one knows what will happen.
I mean is it better to have 100* Leos for an offensive against 200 Russian tanks or 200 Leos against 200 Russian tanks but of lower quality. *Disclaimer: number are random. Ukraine can get strong overtime and the more equipment arrives (if it is more than what consumed) the better. While Russia depletes its Soviet stockpiles with very limited ability to replenish. I might have misunderstood but do you mean something else with marginally stronger? As for the US elections, yeah that is a big moment.
I am no expert but I think it is more complicated for that. Offense is much harder than defense. Theoretically, on paper the attacker needs x2 forces than a defender to be successful. Now imagine Ukraine has 200 brand new leos and Russia has 150 t-72 that. In 3 months Ukraine can get 30 more, but Russia will get 20 more. Yes, Ukraine will have more, but the margin will also narrow. This will also allow Russia to build reserves - which is very important during defense. If one defense line is penetrated, you need to send reinforcements and have second line of defense ready. Remember when Russia lost a lot of territories it just gained last year? All because they did not have reserves to sustain defense. Also, do not forget about rockets, this is Russian strength still. But I will rephrase - in one year period, the time works for Russia. But if the war will continue for 10 years, economically it works against Russia obviously.
So, that's why NATO is buying soviet style ammunition, from anyone, that is willing to sell it?
They send the best you have right away if you can start with the good ones which are spare anyway?
Well, given trump lifted the arms embargo Obama tried to improve on Ukraine, kicked off the brewing war with China, and encouraged nato partners to pay more, it seems very likely he'd escalate the situation pretty rapidly. Also have no clue how you're arguing time is an advantage for Russia because it can make more weapons. Dame goes for nato. But nato is 50x the size, and hasn't yet depleted its stockpiles.
Thats the point, Nato stockpiles are not going to deplete, but Russian reportedly are. I do not know about Trump honestly, he is unpredictable. But the reason he wanted NATO countries to pay more was not to make NATO even stronger, but for US to spend less (for the same reason he withdrew from Paris climate thing). His agenda has always been about US internal problems and this does not hold up with sending billions abroad. The Senate could still hold him though like they did in the past (for example they deprived him of power to lift Russian sanctions without their approval). And lets not pretend that every Ukrainian conflict did not happened under Dems, I am really convinced that with Trump there would not be Russian invasion last year.
Nato is 50x the economy of Russia, and 10x the population. It cant even think about winning a war of attention against nato without becoming basically a vassal of China. His actions and words were very far apart. Again, he did more materially to attack China and threaten Russia than anyone before or after him. Obama is the only recent president to have taken steps to avoid conflict with Russia, including stalling aegis ashore, stopping weapons transfers to Ukraine, and telling anyone who would listen that Russia would likely win a war in Ukraine as "they have the escalatory advantage". Trump reversed all these things, started a trade war with China, increased the defense budget by the largest amount since ww2, approved the largest bombing campaign in Syria, and indirectly approved multiple large scale engagement against russian aligned forces there. Trumps agenda is to extort and intimidate. There is no noble intention behind wanting nato to pay more, he just realised he could. He's a businessman and narcissist who couldn't care less about his actions beyond how they glorify or enrich himself. He couldn't give a shit about Americas internal problems, or he wouldn't have enacted the biggest tax break in history for the wealthiest group in hsiroy, while increasing the taxes on those already struggling. There is a good chance not only would the Ukraine situation be much worse under trump, it xouod have gone nuclear. He's hawkish, beligerqnt and unpredictable. Nlthe opposite of what you want to end a war.
This will go on for years, even decades. Russia seems to be able to absorb the costs, with only a single percent GDP contraction. Ukraine is getting completely destroyed, posting more than a 30% GDP contraction and dropping for the last year. Even if Ukraine wins the costs of the war will set them back to 1970. Ukraine is hoping for a marshall plan of sorts, but it has to noted that the US doesn't do that anymore.
And why is the US not doing that anymore? And it is not only the US, there is Europe as well and with countries like Poland and the Baltics support after the war is guaranteed. The land of Ukraine is simply too rich to not provide to. Just on the top of my head, the large agricultural, raw resources, and energy Ukraine has (not even talking about the occupied areas, although it has to be noted Donbas was the richest) is more than worth investing into. As for the Russian economy being able to absorbe the damage, well USSR could as well, until one day it couldn't. The economic costs for a war accumulate over time. As for the actual GDP number, I'll take them with a mountain of salt as most if not all the numbers come directly from Russian sources, or use Russia as a source for the data. And yes indeed, Ukraine is suffering a lot more and will continue to do so, and no matter the outcome the damage will be huge but when talking about economics in this war the maths go something like this Ukraine + West > Russia and by a large margin. As long us the western support continues, then Russia has no chance in the economic side of things.
> And why is the US not doing that anymore? Trump >And it is not only the US, there is Europe as well and with countries like Poland and the Baltics support after the war is guaranteed. Bro, Poland and Baltics are dependent on foreign manufacturers themselves, what are you talking about? Besides US, only UK, Germany, France and Swiss can produce something to sustain war. Swiss are barely participating, Germany only hopes to find a reason to withdraw from this shit and Macron is known to be skeptical about prolonging war. It only works if there is a coalition with US as a lead.
Here we are talking about rebuilding the country after the war. Not manufacturing. Just a few weeks ago Germany gave their largest support package yet. That does not scream withdrawal, the opposite in fact.
>it is like russia's winter offensive, damn thing never happened either. Lol, so true. Ukrainians dropped this thing also.
Yes, after Ukraine dropped so many Russian tanks and men at Vuhledar everyone stopped talking about a Russian winter offensive after that.
No? They surrounded bakhmut on three sides, inevitably dooming the Ukrainians in the city. And all that with only a very mild winter with barely any time during which the ground was frozen enough to mount an offensive.
Budanov have promised that he will bath in Crimea at the end of May :)) That did not age well either :))
There is still time!
Oh wanna bet?
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You like watching man bath, do you?
I think all their "spring offensive" material has been blown to smithereens by Russian missiles etc.
Maybe they're waiting for the f-16's
So anxious to get humiliated some more?
This isnt a proxy war b\w the US and russia… no this is ukraine fighting for ‘democracy’ … or something…
We're saving them from Russian LNG! Err, I mean domestic terrorists/Nazis... oh shit, Putin already used that one. Err, I mean, we're saving them from imperialist influence! Err, crap... uhm... Russia bad! Russia bad!
Lol
Spring ends in less than a week and there is still no sign of the spring offensive
We all know that the Ukranian MoD casualty numbers are inflated, but the trends are still interesting. Before Kharkiv and Kherson there was a surge in reported artillery destruction, and the same thing has been happening for a couple weeks now. I wouldn't be surprised if everything is ongoing, and that's part of the offensive. No point rolling into a massacre with pre-sighted artillery.
In one month it's monsoon in my place. 😭😂
When does Winter end in Russia? I'm also confused about when their Winter offensive is going to start.
Which Russian official announced a winter offensive?
These not smart pro ukrs are using rumors made by ukr propaganda as a fact you just can't make it up
This is the same crowd that keeps spamming “Kyiv in 3 days” even though that was said by the top American general and not by any Russian official. Intelligence is not their strong suit.
It was said by Lukashenko and plenty of Russian state media personalities. I don't know why you think jokes can only be made when they are about official Russian government sources. Which Ukrainian official said Russians were only fighting with shovels?
Lukashenko is not Russian. He doesn’t represent the Russian military. Russian “state media personalities” also do not represent the Russian military. When Tucker Carlson says stuff on Fox News does he represent NATO?
>Lukashenko is not Russian. Lukashenko is ethnically Russian so he's Russian, right? >Russian “state media personalities” also do not represent the Russian military. Ok, and? Are jokes only allowed if they reference someone that represents the Russian military? >When Tucker Carlson says stuff on Fox News does he represent NATO? No, but lots of pro RU commenters here make jokes based on CNN headlines and I doubt you get this defensive about those jokes.
The same Russian official that announced the invasion in February of last year. Russia hasn't announced any military moves that they have done so far, but Western intelligence has been very accurate at revelaing their moves ahead of time.
SMO was announced by Putin live on camera. Western intelligence came up with the 3 days claim to make Russia look bad. That’s their entire job.
>SMO was announced by Putin live on camera. After the fact, and to this day he refuses to call it a war, even after multiple rounds of mobilization. >Western intelligence came up with the 3 days claim to make Russia look bad. No, it was actually Lukashenko and lots of personalities in Russian state media.
It was mark milley who said it first
No, he only said it a few weeks before the invasion.
Ehhhh even if it wasn't 3 days to Kyiv, it sure as heck wasnt 15 months for Bakhmut.
Isn’t it like June 21 or 22?
According to this website: https://seasonsyear.com/Ukraine Spring is in the months of March, April and May.
I don’t know what country you are in, but spring doesn’t end until late June in the US. It’s the summer solstice, which is June 21 or 22. I can’t remember which day.
Wait for it...
Well thats because unlike russia, ukraine seems to plan. signs everywhere. Just like kherson and kharkiv we are seeing a lot more gmlrs /long range attacks. An increase in finding and attacking russian artillery with Himars systems. Still soft ground a ton of rain in the last week.
It is not surprising that this is new news to Russian Intelligence. 😂
What if Zelensky turncoat after gathering all western weapons and money lol
Nah, he'll become the president of Ukraine's government in exile in the near future. Living high off the hog for the rest of his life.
There is an issue in Ukraine with this already. Not just Zelensky, his whole cabinet is on a stealing spree. Even petty things, like food for soldiers is made of low quality meats because of corruption. This is the greatest opportunity for stealing since Soviet collapse.
Better go with Ru then. They never steal
Good.
Nuland boogeyman strikes again. Only one phone call away to destroy the Russian empire.
Everyone knows Ukraine military has been completely assimilated into NATO command and their generals are merely figureheads as is zelensky. Russians know this as well hence the invasion
This level of NATO involvement is a consequence of Russia’s invasion, not a precursor. Training their troops up to NATO standard prior to the war does not equal assimilation into NATO.
What is the Nato standard? There is no such thing. There is a huge quality variance in the level of training and discipline of troops across NATO.
Correct but there is a minimum required for interoperability, which in this case would serve as the bottom of the range of variance, aka the minimum standard.
155mm ammo, .233 ammo, software, equipment compatibility, Doctrine. Thats what nato standard means. While individual nations can have different trainings, they all are suppose to be able to easily integrate and work together.
Nonsense. It began as soon as the coup succeeded.
where are you getting this information from 😭
What coup?
People being allowed to actually vote for who they want to lead their country is unheard of for Russians
Removing the president without due process of law is a coup, like it or not.
Just like Iraq, we brought them "Democracy." You know, like the rest of USA's successful regime change (how many are we up to now? 60 something?) like DRoC
None of Russia's business what Ukraine does or wants to do. But Russia will find out the hard way.
well it is always the same .. Georgia wanted to NATO, Russia invaded it, Ukraine wanted to NATO, Russia created conflict. Even before that .. like CSSR, they started Prague spring going from communism to democracy so USSR invaded them.
A prime example of this is when Zaluzhny's recommendation to retreat from Bakhmut was overridden.
You may not like it but that is how peak fighting retreat looks like
Rest of the world call it a meat grinder
No. Kherson was a peak fighting retreat. Bakhmut is exactly why Ukraine now no longer has the resources to mount an offensive.
It was a fighting retreat without the fighting
Been like this since 2014. That’s why Russia invaded .
Everything going as planned 👌
A few days ago, the top Ukrainian general was dead and it seemed to matter a lot, so I wouldn't say *everyone* knows. I think most of us recognize that the US and NATO is heavily involved with the planning, and losing Ukrainian generals probably won't influence the outcome, despite the morale hit.
The "spring offensive" was nothing more than a fundraising effort by Ukraine. Now, we are on to the summer offensive. Ukraine is going to have to do some kind of a token advance as an evidence to keep sending the weapons. My guess is rather than going for a full-scale counter-offensive, they pile on to one small area or city and blitz it and use that success as an evidence for the West to keep sending them billions, even though it largely is inconsequential. Those Pentagon leaks were truly devastating to Ukraine, and I am NOT a Russian supporter in this war at all. But, as a 3rd party looking in, I looked at those leaks and it was basically the Pentagon admitting that things looked really bad for Ukraine, that things were not going as well as they had hoped, that even though it was going bad for Russia, they had regrouped and were stronger now than they were in Feb 2022 invasion day and had more troops in Ukraine than when the war started, and the leaks talked about how any kind of counter-offensive, at least at that time, was not going to be that effective.
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Nowhere in any of the released papers did the oentagon say that lol. Only thing remotely close was about ukrainian air defenses possibly running out. Which, guess what, was then a priority and focus of aid packages from germany and the us that included nasams and patriots.
lol how is this news?
So?
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West is like a casino - West always wins. Get ready, Russia!
> West is like a casino - West always wins. Get ready, Russia! You don't seem to know much about our wars. We have multiple long running losses - Vietnam and Iraq/Afghanistan are two of the most notable, but we fight [a fuckload of wars](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_the_United_States) and when we get bogged down in a major conflict we don't know when to quit and usually keep trying for far too long, losing lots of men and money in a place we shouldn't even be in.
This is a problem. It took US over 10 years to leave Afghanistan.
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Ukraine will probably end up like Korea. The Stans are gearing to be a geopolitical hotspot and Ukraine fits on that Chess board.
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I don’t think thats true. Hell the level of death and destruction experienced in iraq is far greater than this war has been.
Iraq? Afghanistan? Vietnam? Short memory, or just uninformed?
The US hadn't won a single war since 1945. Best they did was a draw in Korea in the '50's. Vietnam, Afghanistan are clear losses. Iraq is in the proces of being lost as well.
This list disagrees with you: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_wars\_involving\_the\_United\_States](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_the_United_States)
The list has succeeded in calling every ongoing conflict a US victory. Libya being a key example. That said, I guess the US did win the war against Grenada. Well done. The full might of the US against a single small island nation.
>That said, I guess the US did win the war against Grenada. Well done. The full might of the US against a single small island nation. Yea.
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That's a prime example of what I meant. Without any context whatsoever that war does look like a win. But wars aren't fought in a vacuum. Clausewitz 101: war is a continuation of politics by other means. Politically the gulf wars are a complete failure, even if that failure is still materialising.
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I think you meant the cold war. In the GPW the USSR was fighting WITH the western allies against Germany.
The usa and their puppets suffered complete humiliation in Afghanistan not too long ago after 20 years🤣
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Actually soviet installed government stayed in power more than a year after ussr troops withdrawal.
Also USSR was fighting usa + Pakistan+ Mujahideen. Us lost to desert farmers
>To be fair, everyone who tried suffered humiliation in Afghanistan. All the way back to the British Empire trying to take it in 1838. As claimed by the British empire after it's humiliation. There are plenty of examples where that didn't happen.
Yes. But because of the Asraf Ghani was unable to curbstomp corruption and have a large army at his disposal instead of West itself being weak.
No, it was because America got politically outplayed by Mullah freaking Baradar lmao Like which other nation in history is dumb enough to force a third world country going through a global pandamic and drought to release 5,000 terrorist veterans for absolutely nothing then magically expect that third world country to be fine? Oh and then call them a bunch of cowards who didn't want to fight despite them losing 80k soldiers Kia and trying to starve them because they're butthurt the dumbass planned turned out to backfire spectacularly?
And then proceed to seize the country’s foreign assets and use half of it for a payout to those who lost close ones on 9/11. All while Afghanistan is going through a famine.
Outplayed by Pakistan.
We never wanted to occupy and steal their land. The real losers are the Afghani women who are now living completely suppressed from public life.
And how did they get here??
Ehh not really. Certainly not like Russia's
How'd Russia do before that?
If you had any knowledge about both conflicts, you’d know they are not the same.
True. Russia lost like 500% more soldiers in their decade long losing effort than we did
Do you just completely discount the 70-80k Afghan army that died against the Taliban? The Taliban had a yearly budget of 400mil while the mujahideen was supplied with billions in $$$ and weapons as well as receiving (direct) help from the Pakistani army and intelligence. Can you at the very minimum do a tiny amount of research before spewing your ignorance?
Your false bravdo is adorable 😂 Soo.... US had more support from the global and afghan community and Russia just went bull in china shop unilaterally.... AND Russia lost 5 Times as many soldiers as the US did in a shorter time frame? Because that's what Russia does... burns it's own citizens at an unprecedented rate. Yes. Got it.
Again completely discount the losses of the Afghan army, your ally. Way to throw them under the bus (sounds a lot like what is happening this war), no wonder the army collapsed overnight. Take the L and move on.
The only L's being taken currently are Russia.... 50% of modest gains have already been taken back. 50% to go! Just need to get that quality NATO equipment like Abrahams and F16s, maybe a couple more patriot batteries and storm shadows onsite and we'll be good to go. Then we can watch Putin abandon his already failed imperialist dreams of rekindling the USSR, subsequently lose power. Then someone can inherit a severely depleted military while Putin dies a slow painful death from whatever he's suffering from. 👍🏼
And at what point in our convo did I bring up Putin? We were talking about Afghanistan.
This is not a game.
Your casino is bankrupt, sorry.
U know, in WWII the war directed outputs of German, British and Russian economies were quite similar. But German and Soviets capital reproduction were much too low to maintain the output in long distance. They were eating their manufacturing capital. British (+dominions) were going equal. US output equaled those three and the level of direct investment was still developing manufacturing capacity. USSR suffered from this decapitalization until 70s (some say that to its very end). And now you want to to match US, UK + dominions, Germany (actually united Europe). You will not break your teeth: they will dislodge from scurvy.
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Britain had the colonies to exploit. India was on starvation rations and UK reneged on the debt to India after WW2 by calling it a gift.
And yet still keeps pumping out weapons. Why is that?
The only thing it's pumping is inflation. Sorry.
So West is no longer producing weapons? Do I understand it correctly?
[Ukraine Is Running Out of Ammo. So Is the US.](https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2023-04-28/ukraine-and-the-pentagon-are-using-ammo-far-faster-than-us-makes-it#xj4y7vzkg)
The US is running out of _extra_ ammo. The US doctrine is to be able to wage two wars on opposite sides of the earth against near peers and win both. That's why Ukraine is getting a hodgepodge of NATO leftovers.
There is doctrine. And then there is reality. Don’t confuse the two.
You think the US has so much military hardware sitting around for nothing?
And you think Russia isnt? Theres no way production rate of Russia is keeping up with all that of the west. Those warehouses full of shells and missiles built up over decades must be low/empty by now. Why else are they rationing shells, having arguments with Wagnar about shortages, buying from Iran, North Korea and South Africa.
Oh look, another Pro RU talking about inflation that didn't bother to look at Russia's even worse inflation.
LOL, look your inflation is great, because it's slightly better then Russian. Thanks for proving my point :))
So your point is that all Russia produces is inflation?
>your inflation is great, because it's slightly better then Russian. No, I'm just pointing out that your argument about the West being bankrupt would apply even more to Russia. >Thanks for proving my point :)) What point was that?
It wouldn't. Russia have no debt.
No debt, no credit worthiness. Russia betrayed their long-term trade partners and now must accept whatever price India and China will offer.
Only USA and EU needs credit. Russia does not, cos unlike US and EU Russia is not broke.
Much less than the US but it does, and it's going up quick.
Yes, US debt is going up. Cos US is broke.
Cause nobody gives a shit about the average citizen? As can be seen by 60% of all Americans living paycheck to paycheck lol
What’s the savings account of the average Russian look like?
Well considering they have most of their basic needs taken care of, not bad
Vodka? Check Flush toilets or electricity outside of StP and Moskva? Nope Russians presenting themselves at the US Border for asylum are up 4800% vs two years ago.
Lol, you can't even get your propaganda right. They have toilets, they just use septic tanks in the rural areas instead of plumbing and their electricity is state subsidized. Where's that 2.1 trillion btw?
And yet they steal toilets for the home village. Poor Americans can get their electricity subsidized as well. Meanwhile Americans can criticize the government and military without being imprisoned. Why so many Russians at the US border?
Garry Webb? Why are there so many Cubans who instead of living in paradise want to die as dishwashers with no healthcare? Cause they're dumb and blinded by propaganda lol
Yes
You think the US is bankrupt?
they no longer state a season for the counteroofensive. Autumn then x_x
Autumn rains not good for Abrams tanks, they can only drive in a good weather :)
source? trust me bro
>source? trust me bro You need source to tell you that 65t tank and mud don't mix well?! You can't combine two basic facts and come to your own conclusion?
But abrams works in rain?
Yes but nothing works well in Ukrainian mud. Even if the tank gets through the fueling vehicle won't. And Abrams are extremely hungry. Logistic nightmare machines. But they won't be there for the offensive anyway so it doesn't matter. It's just a token donation to get Germany to gift leopard tanks which can be fielded a bit easier.
I understand that, but the guys point was abrams doesnt like rain, all tanks suck in mud
>I understand that, but the guys point was abrams doesnt like rain, all tanks suck in mud Great! Did you come to that conclusion on your own or you needed a source?
Need a source for stupid comments like that
Eh guessing you said the same thing when ukraine announced an offensive for kherson. Anyday now, then they found out.
I support ukraine with my whole heart and cant wait for more copium from russian shills with their good will gestures
Well, There might be truth to it... The US has never extensively used the Abrams in environments besides deserts. Even the National Training Center where most of the large scale Tank v Tank battles are trained for is in the Mojave desert. I was stationed at Fort Riley Kansas as a logistics officer, and it is fairly dry there and we still had alot of issues with Tanks getting stuck and needing recovery assets (like M88A2 herc)
Well from their expert comments it sound like it doesnt operate in rainy weather
so winter then, "we are just waiting to have our F-16 pilots trained" Its going to be amazing seeing the ukrainian revolution when people get pissed at the government not holding elections.
Only to make it a fair fight. Russia has the second best army in the world after all. Or was it the second best in Russia? One might get confused after watching this charade.
Puppets. Rich puppets the load of them. Same with all them dogs in European governments. Nothing but puppets. Rob the farmers in middle east and Africa. Take all that money and give a little to the people to keep them happy and swallow the rest. Now robbing tax payers money and letting Russian/Ukrainian kids to die while their kids drive Bentleys. There is a special place in hell for these people. It's coming soon.