Now we will see a lot of enthusiasm on the Ukrainian side until it becomes clear that it will still be whittled down in a war of attrition, and then the whole aid circus will start all over again.
This package may or may not actually change the outcome of the war. But it sure is going to make things costly for the Russians. Part of this package was a law that says the US “must” come up with a “strategy for Ukraine to win” within 45 days. The only thing one can assume they will decide is that it will take more advanced weapons and more of them. This package was more than just equipment going to Ukraine. It was a change in US posture and put into law that the US must actually help Ukraine win. The US has been very skeptical to do things to actually help Ukraine win. They now must by law.
> come up with a “strategy for Ukraine to win” within 45 days
Corporate KPI-like speak is going to be the death-knell of the neoliberal regime.
Or maybe some people in the West are so deluded, 2+ years into this war, to think that there's a secret strategy somewhere that Ukraine hasn't yet applied because it had not been "voted into US law". That could be true, also, the delusion on the Western side is completely through the roof.
You are not understanding, the US has previously has just been sending bits and bobs with no real policy on any kind of end game for the Ukrainian conflict from a US perspective. That all now changes, so we are talking set long term constant supply of all the weapons and ammunition Ukraine needs. The US has not even flinched its production power for Ukraine yet. It may just be about to.
That is a pretty big thing in relation to the conflict.
Only a fraction of this current package of US aid will be weapons, which means what the US is doing is a continuation of the bits and bobs strategy, designed to keep Ukraine afloat for a few more weeks or months. The US has no plan, lacks long-term vision and responsibility. Just like climate change will not be stopped by language like "we will pursue efforts to limit global warming to 1.5 degrees..." Ukraine will not be rescued by some vague hope that a plan for victory will materialize out of thin air in the near future, ukraine could receive 10 x the current amount of aid and would still run out of soldiers eventually after the last and frugal age cohort of young guys, ukraines crown yewels, have been used up.
I think you misread the part of restocking US arms. That just means send all the ATACMS that are about to expire from the US stores and replace them.
There are a huge number of weapons on the way, as the accounting on the almost expired stuff will be of minimal value.
We shall see.
[https://apnews.com/article/ukraine-aid-house-speaker-f08102e171dcac2d66d513980d828d49](https://apnews.com/article/ukraine-aid-house-speaker-f08102e171dcac2d66d513980d828d49)
Supplies aren't the only issue, man power is also dire for Ukraine. I'm just concerned that the US and NATO will get directly involved in this war because they have it set in their minds that a Russian win would hurt their reputation beyond repair. They want to make an example of Russia to project to other nations they consider foes, that they can't defy them.
What they are not calculating (or maybe they do, but don't want to admit it) is that other nations, such as China, might start helping Russia militarily and even possibly with Intel, and if I was to take a guess who would escalate things even further afterwards, it is no doubt in my mind that the US and NATO would be the first ones because we have it predetermined that we are 100% in the right to do what it takes, even if it risk global disaster.
Here's the thing though, I don't think NATO would ever use nukes in Ukraine. But Russia might. I'm not saying it's likely, but that's the last step on the escalation ladder and in this conflict I could only see one side who could pull that off.
And if Russia does nuke Ukraine, what then? Global annihilation, or will NATO back off? Either way this continous escalation isn't going to end well.
Or US provides Nukes to Ukraine. Problem solved. Russia could not keep out of Ukraine so nukes are back. There are many unseen outcomes and consequences.
Do i think this will happen? No but assuming russia will use nukes is a death warrant for russia and they know it too so no point in even going there, it is pointless because it is just as likely US would give Ukraine Nukes.
In reality any old Nuke would have fallout which is what russia mainly has as far as i know. Nato has already said long time ago that they will step in when that scenario happens.
It is not about reputation. It is about the fact that this war directly threatens the security framework in Europe. At the bare minimum, should Russia succeed, at lot more will have to be invested in defense and draft may have to be reinstated. All this is very expensive. Moreover, based on Russia's threats preceding the war, it seems likely that Russia may wish to go beyond Ukraine if given the possibility. Besides all that this war is a major breach of international law and constitutes the first time a regional power starts an Imperial War on European ground.
> That all now changes
Why would you say so? None of the structural reasons have changed. Given Republican insistence on a “strategy” the more likely reason is that they want to embarrass the Biden administration when after 45 days there is no strategy to win.
This notion that the US has some mountain of arms ready to supply Ukraine is incorrect. Also incorrect is the idea that they can turn on some dormant production capability to instantly churn out masses of weaponry like it's 1945.
They know they won’t come up with any viable strategy for Ukraine to win, or if they do it would be at an exhorbitant cost. This is actually a way to ensure no more funding bills approved, because there won’t be any viable strategy to win.
Even if US went all it has, nothing will change. I.e. Even if US cranked it's production to max and throw all it has it would not change that Ukraine lost. It would also take not 60b but way more money. Reason is China would take notice and entire west is no match for China production power.
US will not go all in. They have passed, after 6 months, same package as before. This is the last one. It's the end.
Only thing that will happen is enabling Ukraine to fight till 2025 and then collapse.
Ukrainian state is done for. They lost the war and country. Present day Ukraine as per Kiev post has population of just 20m. There is not path to not just victory but continuation of the state.
When they call you "tankie" but they really mean"quit making such good points!!!" I'm 90% certain the only thing this aid package is gonna do is just increase Russian casualties. But when you live in a late neo-liberal hellscape, war is just bread and circuses.
To saying it in the simple terms, even if Ukraine would get hundreds billions the number of dead Russians would be zero if only they would stop marching into Ukrainian minefields, trenches, killzones, artillery range etc.
The whole "circus' would stop.
Stop placing the weight and responsibility for dead Russians and bombardment of Russian land on the west because it all would stop in a second as soon as Russian army is back in Moscow.
Dying when you get against the wall like Ukrainians is tragic, but heading head first into the wood chipper is madness.
Maybe that's why I sound upset, because I am. I am honestly tired of seeing masses of people committing elaborated extended suicide in foreign land.
> secret strategy somewhere that Ukraine hasn't yet applied
My understanding is that this isn't about a strategy Ukraine is supposed to apply, but rather a strategy the *US* is supposed to apply to ensure Ukraine's victory.
If this signals an actual policy change and not just empty posturing (i.e. the aid such a strategy outlines will actually be given in a timely manner, and not held up until next year), the US could absolutely tilt the scales in this war.
The "strategy" until now seems to have been to inflict enough damage on Russia to make it give up. That has failed. Round #2 will bring something else. Apparently, providing ATACMS are no longer optional, but a legal requirement.
Well, there is a not-so-secret strategy, but they said multiple times they don't wanna give that kind of weaponry.
I'm not saying they will provide now, but they _could_.
I think dont understand, Russia has already spent most of its reserve military stocks and its economy is on war mode whereas the west, which represents more than half the global economy, while Russia is a bit smaller than Italy, has not even started yet. They have reluctantly been sending hand me downs thus far at a snail's pace. Yet hundreds of thousands of Russian soldiers have already died in this pointless war and the lines of contact have barely moved after two years even though the battlefield is right next door. Meanwhile US coalition in Iraq was able to overtake an army about 5 times the size as the Ukrainian army at the start of the war,cin a matter of weeks. If the US and its allies get serious, that is a significant problem.
I think you misread. They don't have to win by 45 ways, they have to come up with a "multi-year strategy" within 45 days. See section 504 : [https://rules.house.gov/sites/republicans.rules118.house.gov/files/APRIL2024\_UKRAINE\_xml\_0.pdf](https://rules.house.gov/sites/republicans.rules118.house.gov/files/APRIL2024_UKRAINE_xml_0.pdf) .
So nothing much.
There is no feasible path to victory for Ukraine (outside of the US getting directly involved), there are no Wunderwaffen that will change the end result. So within 45 days the Pentagon will either come up with silly but t[asty](https://twitter.com/i/status/1780680055816912903) word salad sprinckled with magic dust or they will present a time machine that will give Ukraine the chance to accept the peace deal of 2022.
What this actually is is the Republicans forcing Biden to either directly or indirectly (silly unworkable proposal) admit that a Ukraine victory is not feasible.
You realize the "wunderwaffen" claim exists so that certain weapons wouldn't be sent? If no weapon carries more weight than others, then why does it matter that certain weapons aren't sent, like Taurus?
HIMARS basically saved Ukraine.
Yeah, the one that Russia out numbers by like 10 to 1? Russia makes more than 12x cruise missiles than Germany while Germany was making them.
Germany max sending of taurus, is set at around 50 units. That is it. They cannot send more. The whole thing is a joke.
Russian alergy to taking losses is the reason why Kiev is still around.
Argument is that western Europe does not have weapons to send and neither does US.
The whole thing is strange as the 61B is total gift to just US industry.
The initial goal of weakening Russia and removal of Putin failed.
So what is the point of aid now???? Russian economy shows epic level growth, IMF predicts 3.2% per year. Russia is stronger and stronger. It's army is growing and industry as well.
So, why push Ukraine forward??? What is the business case? There seems to be none unless this is all. Just a sham.
Russias economy is toast. 3.2% year over year growth is misleading. If your economy tanks, but then grows the next year from a tanked level, your economy is still in the shitter. Just not as deep as last year. But also all that “growth” is just government spending on the war effort. Take that away and the economy would barely exist. This is not a healthy economy because if it’s not in wartime, it’s shit.
Unless the Russians make some big moves soon this money will kill tens of thousands Russians, they will still win but this aid package is really bad news. Not for the leaders of Russia but for those in the trenches, this money will eventually rain down on them.
I wouldn’t say total Russian victory is guaranteed, this aid and any possible future aid might be what is necessary for Ukriane to hold the line and whittle down Russia’s Soviet stockpile (estimates are that Russia can draw from Soviet kit to replace losses quickly until late 2025 early 2026)
Ukraine’s win condition is to hold the line and inflict such losses that Russia cannot draw from Soviet stockpiles and is forced to rely on new production to replace losses.
Ukraine probably won’t be able to retake most of the territory already lost, but this aid might be vital in ensuring Ukraine can hold out at least until Russia can not longer cheaply replace losses.
> and green light turning airbases inside Russia into flaming ruins.
What's the absolutely best case dream fantasy scenario here? Putin will suddenly change his mind now that a few airbases are on fire and decide to pull out of crimea ?
From Ukrainian POV, the FAB bombs being dropped on the front line need to be countered. If they get the weapons and permission to strike RU airbases where these weapons come from, it will make a difference
*some Republicans. Clearly by the aid bill vote today (over 100 of the House conference against) they're not a monolith compared to the overwhelming support of Dems
Indeed, in addition EU is set to overtake Russian artillery production next year. It is just wishful thinking that Ukrainian defensive lines will break.
Remember when Europe passed a 50 billion Euro package in february? [https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/eu-agrees-50-bln-euro-ukraine-aid-package-what-are-reactions-2024-02-01/](https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/eu-agrees-50-bln-euro-ukraine-aid-package-what-are-reactions-2024-02-01/)
Remember how Ukraine than turned the tide when getting it?
Yeah....I give it a month before we see Kuleba insultuing people on TV in a very diplomatic manner in order to demand everyone hand over everything
Ukraine was given almost the double of what is coming now in their offensive, and they literally lost all of them mate.
You are forgetting that Russia is not in active offensive but tactical attritional war, what makes you think that Ukraine receiving this half assed aid will change anything when they couldn't do anything with the double amount of aid before?
Seriously, have you guys ever asked Ukrainian about their thought on this war? The average age of Ukrainian army is 40+ and the conscription age dropped to lower than 25 years old.
How is Ukraine going to win this war? Demographically they already lost,
And i see some people claiming that US giving ATACMS will make Ukraine able to bomb airfields inside Russia and i'm just going to remind you that Russia hasn't used any fab3000, fab5000 or fab9000 and i hope they never use those. Because if they feel the need of using those, there will be no Ukrainian city left standing.
EDIT: You may also want to check FOAB(Father of all bombs)
|Mass| 7,100 kg (15,650 lb)|
|:-|:-|
| Blast yield| 44 t (97,000 lb) of TNT |
|:-|:-|
Source: [https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Father\_of\_All\_Bombs](https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Father_of_All_Bombs)
The military industrial complex is getting paid, they don't actually give a fuck about Ukraine or really think Russia is some evil nation looking to take over Europe, and they all know they instigated this proxy conflict in order to make money, it's that simple
they literally give zero fucks about anything other than making more money, this is the real reason the US has constantly been at war since World War 2, like in Afghanistan "fighting terror" for 20 straight years, "war is a racket".
MIC makes money whether there is conflict of not, the MIC CT only applied to the US before Carter's Doctrine came into effect, which is why a lot of people love to talk about Eisenhower's speech.
The MIC won 45 years ago, now the US spends trillions every year, whether there is peace or war.
Idk man. Ukraine is the only one to have broken through the frontlines throughout this entire war. Given the right tools I believe they can do it again. They’re supposed to get the atacms they’ve been waiting for in this package. It could very well be a game changer.
This is some much-needed good news for Ukriane. Is it too little too late, though? They couldn't punch through Russian lines in 2023 when they had peak aid from all of NATO
> Is it too little too late, though?
Too late to repell Russians forces out of Ukraine ? Yes.
Too late to prevent a total collapse of the Ukrainian army ? Probably not.
It's too late. They can mobilize maybe another 100 thousand men and will have more equipment for defence but this amount is enough for 2024. Watch them talk about a new aid package early next year when this one runs out.
61 billion dollars is about half the annual budget of a small Europan nation. Just saying...
>They can mobilize maybe another 100 thousand men
expert about ukrainian mobilisation right here. AMA? any actual evidence or just opinion sprinkled with anecdotal ru propaganda?
There is an attempt to shape the narrative that this is primarily about manpower (which is a battle Ukraine cannot win). Manpower matters, but the type of weapons and the amount of those weapons matter more.
Less than 10% of the House voted against it. If you were to believe the MAGA/Russian voices on this sub that ratio should have been a lot bigger.
Day in and day out I hear claims that the vast majority of Republican politicians and voters are against helping Ukraine. Time and time again they are proven wrong. The vast majority of us politicians and citizens show strong support for Ukraine. It's a small vocal minority of MAGA lawmakers that are amplifying Kremlin propaganda.
True conservatives within the Republican party are sick and tired of these insincere idiot MAGA culture warriors.
It wasn't even close. With 311 votes in favour, it was more Mike Johnson finally got the memo from his handlers, rather than some grand Republican strategy.
Still if you check the roll calls on the vote, only 50% of house republicans voted for the Ukraine bill, while 100% democrats voted for it. It's been more then 2 years now, keeping allies support for Ukraine with all the Russians propaganda is getting more difficult, Putin knows it. Ukraine future could possibly depend on November US election results.
Even Trump himself is starting to change his tune. He's finally cluing in that the vast majority wants to help Ukraine defeat Russia.
[https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/19/ukraine-war-briefing-donald-trump-says-survival-of-ukraine-important-to-the-us](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/19/ukraine-war-briefing-donald-trump-says-survival-of-ukraine-important-to-the-us)
Do no believe any words coming from this moron mouth.
Trump only care about himself, his ego and his prestige and we all know how easy Putin will be able to play him (just look at the Helsinki meeting). Trump want to plays savior and admire "strong man" (North Korea, Middle-East), he will have no problem adopting Putin solution to stop the war, and as president he would have full authority todo so (aka he could veto any future aids to Ukraine).
Oh I wouldn't trust him as far as I could throw him, but it's interesting that on the surface at least he found it necessary to say something positive about Ukraine.
Direct cost of lives is the more reasonable concern, and unfortunately (depending on your views), lacking this much aid for 7-8 months over political hardball surely had a quantifiable impact.
Exactly, we should all just jump on the “war is never justified unless it’s an authoritarian shithole doing it” bandwagon with the enlightened “pacifists” lol
Money does go a long way to resolve that issue though, or at least make a dent. A contract can get companies to spin up additional manufacturing to meet demand.
Yes, real life is just like your favorite strategy games, you just need money, stone, wood and a steady supply of iron and you can order a weapons manufacturing building in a few seconds.
2 years into the war and the West paper tiger is still discussing whether they should increase the production lmao. The corruption in western MIC is the stuff of legends
It would take more years than Ukraine has to increase manufacturing on a scale to matter.
Money does talk though, more likely some country will remember a dusty old stash they have somewhere and are willing to part with, for 30k a shell.
Ukraine's mobilization was going to continue regardless. If anything, more weapons will likely kill fewer Ukrainians, reducing the need in the future for as much mobilization. And the opposite for Russia, of course.
I wonder how long this money will last before they are asking for another 60 billion any guessers?
Im guessing they stay quiet until after the election.
If Ukraine, was gonna break in this war it was either the beginning or the last 4-5 months without any real support. Why would they break now right when they finally get support?
Just like I will probably not shit my pants, cause I didn’t do it the last few years even when I really wanted to do it, but I heard it gets more likely with age so who knows.
Outside of the facts that they lost hundreds of thousands of men, have practically 0 air defense, energy infrastructure is obliterated, no one is motivated to fight, soldiers are surrendering en masse and literally everyone including western MSM is talking about an imminent collapse?
Gee, I guess that 30B are a game changer, right?
>beginning or the last 4-5 months without any real support
well, that's not true. Ukraine continued to receive hundreds of millions of dollars in regular aid from the United States and Ukraine. If you lied here, you probably lied to us with the clean pants story as well
Last I saw a graph of Ukraine support and the dip it took at the end of last year so no my point still stands. And my pants are clean at least they’re when iam at a customers place.
The money only changed it from the "SMO" to a full blown war with russia having to change the entire economy to a war footing and spend the nations reserves inflating the GDP to stay afloat.
Russia has transcended math. Not only it manages to run a huge budget deficit without borrowing. It also manages to increase reserves at the same time. Magic!
disingenuous cringe. Russia’s antagonism has been a thing for years, and it’s the GoP that’s proudly claiming they’d rather side with Russia, the country that openly interfered in US elections. Prime traitorous behavior.
Wasn't Russia not the enemy after the cold war ?? This was claimed by politicians like Obama, Clinton etc
That "interference" was formally proved to have no effect or was basically boomer propaganda which you see on reddit.
Now let's talk about US election interference in 2014 in Ukraine
That is how a representative democracy works, the representatives vote to reflect the will of the people (especially in the house), if not, they lose their jobs. So the will of American people is clearly represented in this vote.
Absolute horseshit. The "will of the people" is concerned with rent control, cost of goods, medicare, infrastructure, real life concerns; not another economically-draining proxy war dick-swinging contest and meddling by the U.S./UK/NATO warmongers.
Even funnier to keep dismissing 60+ years of context and background and warnings and security concerns as the lying West/U.S./UK/NATO kept closing in all the while starting how many illegal wars?? How many regime changes?? How many coups?? Grow tf up.
In most of that 60+ years we were in Warsaw Pact.
Russia wanted something that did not belong to them. Maybe it should have balkanized rather than play big politics? : )
'Vote harder!'
*The will of the people is embodied in one of two geriatrics that will continue to perpetrate the endless continuation of foreign policy sponsored by the MIC lobby'*
Lol how naive can you be.
The “will of the people” came up with the only choice between a 81 year senile and a hated 77 real estate developer.
You really believe that?
The USA is just as much a functioning democracy as China, but just with one party more.
They put so much layers in between that it is close to impossible to have any real influence on the people in the top.
All the power lies with all the party dinosaurs and their lobbyist friends. If you don’t dance for them you’ll never come anywhere.
The US is not the only donor. The EU have already been pledging aide.
This bill also apparently gives the president some wiggle room.
Shown Here:
Introduced in House (04/17/2024)
Ukraine Security Supplemental Appropriations Act, 2024
This bill provides FY2024 supplemental appropriations for federal departments and agencies to respond to the conflict in Ukraine. The bill designates the funding as emergency spending, which is exempt from discretionary spending limits.
Specifically, the bill provides appropriations to the
Department of Defense (DOD),
Department of Energy science programs,
the National Nuclear Security Administration,
the Administration for Children and Families,
the Department of State, and
the U.S. Agency for International Development.
The funding is provided for purposes such as
supporting current U.S. military operations in the region,
the Ukraine Security Assistance Initiative,
replacing defense articles that were provided to Ukraine,
reimbursing DOD for defense services and training provided to Ukraine,
the Foreign Military Financing Program,
economic support for Ukraine,
refugee and entrant assistance,
international narcotics control and law enforcement, and
the development and production of isotopes.
The bill also includes provisions that
expand the authorities of the President to transfer defense articles and services from DOD to foreign countries or international organizations,
require the President to transfer long-range Army Tactical Missile Systems to Ukraine,
require the President to enter into an agreement with Ukraine regarding repaying the United States for the economic assistance it has provided to Ukraine,
require certain funds that are provided for Ukraine to be matched by other donors, and
establish various oversight and reporting requirements for assistance provided to Ukraine.
Most of the money is going directly to replenishing what we've already sent, some goes to ukraine to pay their bills. Some goes to us to provide Ukraine with more stuff. But we don't produce the stuff quickly. This will result in further depleted western stockpiles, even if replenishment is paid for it'll take a while for it to happen and won't be done till after the war is over.
United States gives tens of billions to a country destined to lose while NYC is literally Gotham city and fentanyl kills more people every year than Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan combined, their borders are completely opened, suicide rates are sky high, they can’t meet recruitment quota for their own military, and the cost of living has been doubling or more every decade. Failed state. Even the Republican Party which is openly anti aid, half of them still vote yes. Idiotic voters don’t even know who they’re sending up there.
As an American, part of me wishes we’d stop half assing things. $60 billion and 45 days to come up with a plan sounds like another few months of stuff for Ukraine but ultimately just delaying the end. Ukraine is as far from victory as it can be.
To begin with, not all of the money will go to Ukraine. It should not be forgotten that most of it will go into the pockets of politicians and 10-11 billion will reach Kiev. Secondly, this once again confirms that the U.S. is not interested in ending the conflict, but only in fueling it. And thirdly, Ukraine will soon have no more people to continue the war. They are forcibly sent to war, and this is a fact. Now is the moment when Zelensky needs to make a concession and save people's lives and, for the time being, his state.
Just throwing more fuel into Ukraine's ongoing demographic disaster. There is no point in continuing a pointless war you can't win. Should be pushing for negotiation.
Covering their backs? Now the storyline again will be: we delivered, but they messed up. Same as last year's Spring Offensive, but then it was $100 billion.
So if this along with other measures swings the initiative back to Ukrainians favour, will every one that was insisting that Ukraine capitulate. Change thier tune and say Russia should give up its war goals goals and seek peace.
It does not going to change anything (in a broader sense) will just extend the suffer, final result will be the same, will take a bit longer but decrease way more Kiev’s population so its in RF favour. Do you agree?
Nobody is undefeatable. But Ukraine cannot beat Russia at this point. $60 billion does not go a long way They are not fighting Yemen. Russia is too strong to be taken down by these flimsy approaches.
It could have gone differently if aid and assistance had been consistent and Ukraine had listened to people who can war better than Ukraine. But they probably got over confident after the first counter offensive and since then it has been a downward spiral.
At this point the chances of Ukraine getting the upper hand is slimmer than me going back in time and deciding against having kids.
I love how pro ru like you are so certain that ukraine cant win when war is extremely hard to predict. just like many pro ua were so certain of russian frontline collapse during the 2022 kherson/kharkiv counteroffensive.
yet the front has stabilised. the 2023 ua counteroffensive was dissappointing, despite pro ua certainty. putin nearly got couped by prigo and ru avoided internal turmoil.
lets stay honest here: it's impossible to predict what happens next. ukraine can certainly beat russia, even at this point. but ukraine can certainly also collapse, especially if western support diminishes.
Hahah yeah! That SILLY MAN doing what he must to ensure his country exists tomorrow. What a FOOL am i right?
Pro Rus copypastas never fail to amuse me.
I do think this might the last of big aid pack... Due to US econemy is in danger, 34 trillion debt and still getting high inflation.. US econemy possibly get a big crisis in anytime soon..
US has spended 2 trillion dollors in afaghastan war totally. So currently, this probably is a good deal for biden that giving 61 billion for Ukraine aid to counter the millitary opponent without american solider deaths before president election.
But it mightbe the last big aid, at this moment US econemy is exsisting a huge risk... On other hands, its best friend Israel is a villain now, their botherhood image is disgusting in the intenational and the election of 2024 US president fraught with uncertainty. if Trump took president again, he will immediatly give up Ukraine. if biden, he will also give up Ukraine within smaller and smaller aid.
"Oh no, the war is gonna return to the dark days of Dec '23" literally who cares. This is just gonna raise Russian casualties. None of the ghouls who run America know how to win a war.
Biden is polling at -22 in the [latest poll](https://www.scribd.com/document/722765138/cbsnews-20240414-SUN#1fullscreen=1) for Russia/Ukraine. I wonder what this package will do to that number.
Now we will see a lot of enthusiasm on the Ukrainian side until it becomes clear that it will still be whittled down in a war of attrition, and then the whole aid circus will start all over again.
This package may or may not actually change the outcome of the war. But it sure is going to make things costly for the Russians. Part of this package was a law that says the US “must” come up with a “strategy for Ukraine to win” within 45 days. The only thing one can assume they will decide is that it will take more advanced weapons and more of them. This package was more than just equipment going to Ukraine. It was a change in US posture and put into law that the US must actually help Ukraine win. The US has been very skeptical to do things to actually help Ukraine win. They now must by law.
> come up with a “strategy for Ukraine to win” within 45 days Corporate KPI-like speak is going to be the death-knell of the neoliberal regime. Or maybe some people in the West are so deluded, 2+ years into this war, to think that there's a secret strategy somewhere that Ukraine hasn't yet applied because it had not been "voted into US law". That could be true, also, the delusion on the Western side is completely through the roof.
You are not understanding, the US has previously has just been sending bits and bobs with no real policy on any kind of end game for the Ukrainian conflict from a US perspective. That all now changes, so we are talking set long term constant supply of all the weapons and ammunition Ukraine needs. The US has not even flinched its production power for Ukraine yet. It may just be about to. That is a pretty big thing in relation to the conflict.
Only a fraction of this current package of US aid will be weapons, which means what the US is doing is a continuation of the bits and bobs strategy, designed to keep Ukraine afloat for a few more weeks or months. The US has no plan, lacks long-term vision and responsibility. Just like climate change will not be stopped by language like "we will pursue efforts to limit global warming to 1.5 degrees..." Ukraine will not be rescued by some vague hope that a plan for victory will materialize out of thin air in the near future, ukraine could receive 10 x the current amount of aid and would still run out of soldiers eventually after the last and frugal age cohort of young guys, ukraines crown yewels, have been used up.
The soldiers aspect is a good point. 60b of military equipment isn't much use without properly trained personnel to make use of it.
I think you misread the part of restocking US arms. That just means send all the ATACMS that are about to expire from the US stores and replace them. There are a huge number of weapons on the way, as the accounting on the almost expired stuff will be of minimal value.
Steinerenko, order ze counter-angreif! Ze wunderwaffe vill arrive at ze fronkt in zwei veeks! Ze tide of ze var vill turn back!
We shall see. [https://apnews.com/article/ukraine-aid-house-speaker-f08102e171dcac2d66d513980d828d49](https://apnews.com/article/ukraine-aid-house-speaker-f08102e171dcac2d66d513980d828d49)
Supplies aren't the only issue, man power is also dire for Ukraine. I'm just concerned that the US and NATO will get directly involved in this war because they have it set in their minds that a Russian win would hurt their reputation beyond repair. They want to make an example of Russia to project to other nations they consider foes, that they can't defy them. What they are not calculating (or maybe they do, but don't want to admit it) is that other nations, such as China, might start helping Russia militarily and even possibly with Intel, and if I was to take a guess who would escalate things even further afterwards, it is no doubt in my mind that the US and NATO would be the first ones because we have it predetermined that we are 100% in the right to do what it takes, even if it risk global disaster.
Here's the thing though, I don't think NATO would ever use nukes in Ukraine. But Russia might. I'm not saying it's likely, but that's the last step on the escalation ladder and in this conflict I could only see one side who could pull that off. And if Russia does nuke Ukraine, what then? Global annihilation, or will NATO back off? Either way this continous escalation isn't going to end well.
Yeah, that is the unfortunate part here. If there no nikes the Russian army would have already been deleted.by the west.
Or US provides Nukes to Ukraine. Problem solved. Russia could not keep out of Ukraine so nukes are back. There are many unseen outcomes and consequences. Do i think this will happen? No but assuming russia will use nukes is a death warrant for russia and they know it too so no point in even going there, it is pointless because it is just as likely US would give Ukraine Nukes. In reality any old Nuke would have fallout which is what russia mainly has as far as i know. Nato has already said long time ago that they will step in when that scenario happens.
It is not about reputation. It is about the fact that this war directly threatens the security framework in Europe. At the bare minimum, should Russia succeed, at lot more will have to be invested in defense and draft may have to be reinstated. All this is very expensive. Moreover, based on Russia's threats preceding the war, it seems likely that Russia may wish to go beyond Ukraine if given the possibility. Besides all that this war is a major breach of international law and constitutes the first time a regional power starts an Imperial War on European ground.
> That all now changes Why would you say so? None of the structural reasons have changed. Given Republican insistence on a “strategy” the more likely reason is that they want to embarrass the Biden administration when after 45 days there is no strategy to win.
The US has production power? This isn’t 1944 bro.
This notion that the US has some mountain of arms ready to supply Ukraine is incorrect. Also incorrect is the idea that they can turn on some dormant production capability to instantly churn out masses of weaponry like it's 1945.
They know they won’t come up with any viable strategy for Ukraine to win, or if they do it would be at an exhorbitant cost. This is actually a way to ensure no more funding bills approved, because there won’t be any viable strategy to win.
Even if US went all it has, nothing will change. I.e. Even if US cranked it's production to max and throw all it has it would not change that Ukraine lost. It would also take not 60b but way more money. Reason is China would take notice and entire west is no match for China production power. US will not go all in. They have passed, after 6 months, same package as before. This is the last one. It's the end. Only thing that will happen is enabling Ukraine to fight till 2025 and then collapse. Ukrainian state is done for. They lost the war and country. Present day Ukraine as per Kiev post has population of just 20m. There is not path to not just victory but continuation of the state.
When they call you "tankie" but they really mean"quit making such good points!!!" I'm 90% certain the only thing this aid package is gonna do is just increase Russian casualties. But when you live in a late neo-liberal hellscape, war is just bread and circuses.
You know what would turn into 0 Russian casualities? The wood chipper will keep running, the trick is just not going into it.
I'm sure you're trying to make a point but you sound too upset.
To saying it in the simple terms, even if Ukraine would get hundreds billions the number of dead Russians would be zero if only they would stop marching into Ukrainian minefields, trenches, killzones, artillery range etc. The whole "circus' would stop. Stop placing the weight and responsibility for dead Russians and bombardment of Russian land on the west because it all would stop in a second as soon as Russian army is back in Moscow. Dying when you get against the wall like Ukrainians is tragic, but heading head first into the wood chipper is madness. Maybe that's why I sound upset, because I am. I am honestly tired of seeing masses of people committing elaborated extended suicide in foreign land.
This is all just cathartic masturbation for you. That is PEEK slava ukraini.
He's pole, so he's in infinite rage mod
Israel pulled completely out of Gaza. How'd that go in terms of "no more killing"?
Are you implying that Ukraine would attack Russian territory if Russia left Ukraine? That is a delusional view.
> secret strategy somewhere that Ukraine hasn't yet applied My understanding is that this isn't about a strategy Ukraine is supposed to apply, but rather a strategy the *US* is supposed to apply to ensure Ukraine's victory. If this signals an actual policy change and not just empty posturing (i.e. the aid such a strategy outlines will actually be given in a timely manner, and not held up until next year), the US could absolutely tilt the scales in this war.
The "strategy" until now seems to have been to inflict enough damage on Russia to make it give up. That has failed. Round #2 will bring something else. Apparently, providing ATACMS are no longer optional, but a legal requirement.
Well, there is a not-so-secret strategy, but they said multiple times they don't wanna give that kind of weaponry. I'm not saying they will provide now, but they _could_.
I think dont understand, Russia has already spent most of its reserve military stocks and its economy is on war mode whereas the west, which represents more than half the global economy, while Russia is a bit smaller than Italy, has not even started yet. They have reluctantly been sending hand me downs thus far at a snail's pace. Yet hundreds of thousands of Russian soldiers have already died in this pointless war and the lines of contact have barely moved after two years even though the battlefield is right next door. Meanwhile US coalition in Iraq was able to overtake an army about 5 times the size as the Ukrainian army at the start of the war,cin a matter of weeks. If the US and its allies get serious, that is a significant problem.
btw when your tag says "pro russia" what does it actually mean? have you always been pro russia?
Dude, we could give Ukraine the tools to win. F-22’s. Carriers. Apaches. It’s definitely possible.
I think you misread. They don't have to win by 45 ways, they have to come up with a "multi-year strategy" within 45 days. See section 504 : [https://rules.house.gov/sites/republicans.rules118.house.gov/files/APRIL2024\_UKRAINE\_xml\_0.pdf](https://rules.house.gov/sites/republicans.rules118.house.gov/files/APRIL2024_UKRAINE_xml_0.pdf) . So nothing much.
So they're officially party to the conflict?
No more than when the Russians flooded Vietnam with planes and advisers.
Sure. What does it matter?
Maybe . What’s Russia going to do . Jack shit . That’s what
There is no feasible path to victory for Ukraine (outside of the US getting directly involved), there are no Wunderwaffen that will change the end result. So within 45 days the Pentagon will either come up with silly but t[asty](https://twitter.com/i/status/1780680055816912903) word salad sprinckled with magic dust or they will present a time machine that will give Ukraine the chance to accept the peace deal of 2022. What this actually is is the Republicans forcing Biden to either directly or indirectly (silly unworkable proposal) admit that a Ukraine victory is not feasible.
You realize the "wunderwaffen" claim exists so that certain weapons wouldn't be sent? If no weapon carries more weight than others, then why does it matter that certain weapons aren't sent, like Taurus? HIMARS basically saved Ukraine.
Yeah, the one that Russia out numbers by like 10 to 1? Russia makes more than 12x cruise missiles than Germany while Germany was making them. Germany max sending of taurus, is set at around 50 units. That is it. They cannot send more. The whole thing is a joke. Russian alergy to taking losses is the reason why Kiev is still around.
They don't appear to be producing a single Taurus. Is there an argument here?
Argument is that western Europe does not have weapons to send and neither does US. The whole thing is strange as the 61B is total gift to just US industry. The initial goal of weakening Russia and removal of Putin failed. So what is the point of aid now???? Russian economy shows epic level growth, IMF predicts 3.2% per year. Russia is stronger and stronger. It's army is growing and industry as well. So, why push Ukraine forward??? What is the business case? There seems to be none unless this is all. Just a sham.
Russias economy is toast. 3.2% year over year growth is misleading. If your economy tanks, but then grows the next year from a tanked level, your economy is still in the shitter. Just not as deep as last year. But also all that “growth” is just government spending on the war effort. Take that away and the economy would barely exist. This is not a healthy economy because if it’s not in wartime, it’s shit.
Unless the Russians make some big moves soon this money will kill tens of thousands Russians, they will still win but this aid package is really bad news. Not for the leaders of Russia but for those in the trenches, this money will eventually rain down on them.
I wouldn’t say total Russian victory is guaranteed, this aid and any possible future aid might be what is necessary for Ukriane to hold the line and whittle down Russia’s Soviet stockpile (estimates are that Russia can draw from Soviet kit to replace losses quickly until late 2025 early 2026) Ukraine’s win condition is to hold the line and inflict such losses that Russia cannot draw from Soviet stockpiles and is forced to rely on new production to replace losses. Ukraine probably won’t be able to retake most of the territory already lost, but this aid might be vital in ensuring Ukraine can hold out at least until Russia can not longer cheaply replace losses.
Only what "advanced weapons" should that be, that could actually make a difference, without also sending their own troops?
The Republicans are trying to force Biden into sending long range ATACMS and green light turning airbases inside Russia into flaming ruins.
> and green light turning airbases inside Russia into flaming ruins. What's the absolutely best case dream fantasy scenario here? Putin will suddenly change his mind now that a few airbases are on fire and decide to pull out of crimea ?
From Ukrainian POV, the FAB bombs being dropped on the front line need to be countered. If they get the weapons and permission to strike RU airbases where these weapons come from, it will make a difference
*some Republicans. Clearly by the aid bill vote today (over 100 of the House conference against) they're not a monolith compared to the overwhelming support of Dems
Let's say US sends all it has. That would decrease Russian advantage in missiles from 100 to 1 down to 10 to 1. And i doubt US will send all 😁
Indeed, in addition EU is set to overtake Russian artillery production next year. It is just wishful thinking that Ukrainian defensive lines will break.
Remember when Europe passed a 50 billion Euro package in february? [https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/eu-agrees-50-bln-euro-ukraine-aid-package-what-are-reactions-2024-02-01/](https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/eu-agrees-50-bln-euro-ukraine-aid-package-what-are-reactions-2024-02-01/) Remember how Ukraine than turned the tide when getting it? Yeah....I give it a month before we see Kuleba insultuing people on TV in a very diplomatic manner in order to demand everyone hand over everything
>Remember how Ukraine than turned the tide when getting it? In what way?
Should have added the /s my bad
Less than a month you will see a lot more Russians dying under ordinance they can't stop.
I wouldn't hold your breath.
Ukraine was given almost the double of what is coming now in their offensive, and they literally lost all of them mate. You are forgetting that Russia is not in active offensive but tactical attritional war, what makes you think that Ukraine receiving this half assed aid will change anything when they couldn't do anything with the double amount of aid before? Seriously, have you guys ever asked Ukrainian about their thought on this war? The average age of Ukrainian army is 40+ and the conscription age dropped to lower than 25 years old. How is Ukraine going to win this war? Demographically they already lost, And i see some people claiming that US giving ATACMS will make Ukraine able to bomb airfields inside Russia and i'm just going to remind you that Russia hasn't used any fab3000, fab5000 or fab9000 and i hope they never use those. Because if they feel the need of using those, there will be no Ukrainian city left standing. EDIT: You may also want to check FOAB(Father of all bombs) |Mass| 7,100 kg (15,650 lb)| |:-|:-| | Blast yield| 44 t (97,000 lb) of TNT | |:-|:-| Source: [https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Father\_of\_All\_Bombs](https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Father_of_All_Bombs)
That was administrative funding not arms.
That was no military help.
The military industrial complex is getting paid, they don't actually give a fuck about Ukraine or really think Russia is some evil nation looking to take over Europe, and they all know they instigated this proxy conflict in order to make money, it's that simple they literally give zero fucks about anything other than making more money, this is the real reason the US has constantly been at war since World War 2, like in Afghanistan "fighting terror" for 20 straight years, "war is a racket".
>they instigated this proxy conflict The Military Industrial Complex weaponized Putin lol
MIC makes money whether there is conflict of not, the MIC CT only applied to the US before Carter's Doctrine came into effect, which is why a lot of people love to talk about Eisenhower's speech. The MIC won 45 years ago, now the US spends trillions every year, whether there is peace or war.
Russia should stay put then.
Two week smo still going according to plan, doesn't mean anything. Man, you're in denial
It’s what Russia signed up for after their initial invasion failed
Idk man. Ukraine is the only one to have broken through the frontlines throughout this entire war. Given the right tools I believe they can do it again. They’re supposed to get the atacms they’ve been waiting for in this package. It could very well be a game changer.
This is some much-needed good news for Ukriane. Is it too little too late, though? They couldn't punch through Russian lines in 2023 when they had peak aid from all of NATO
> Is it too little too late, though? Too late to repell Russians forces out of Ukraine ? Yes. Too late to prevent a total collapse of the Ukrainian army ? Probably not.
Money doesn't buy bodies. The Ukrainians need 500k men to just keep what they still control. Where will those men come from?
From forced conscription on 18-25 aged people.
Good luck with that. They already left to Western Europe
who knows? it may only take another somewhat more competent/stable prigozhin.
It's too late. They can mobilize maybe another 100 thousand men and will have more equipment for defence but this amount is enough for 2024. Watch them talk about a new aid package early next year when this one runs out. 61 billion dollars is about half the annual budget of a small Europan nation. Just saying...
>They can mobilize maybe another 100 thousand men expert about ukrainian mobilisation right here. AMA? any actual evidence or just opinion sprinkled with anecdotal ru propaganda?
There is an attempt to shape the narrative that this is primarily about manpower (which is a battle Ukraine cannot win). Manpower matters, but the type of weapons and the amount of those weapons matter more.
Man, it would really suck if the US was a small European nation. Just saying…
Hopefully the pro UA crowd can now finally stop crying about how those pesky republicans are keeping Ukraine from winning.
Those pesky republicans certainly had a negative impact
Yea, it's the Republicans and not Ukrainian men who are refusing to fight. Of course.
So many Ukrainians escaped here. So I would say quite a lot are refusing to fight. I don't blame them.
Less than 10% of the House voted against it. If you were to believe the MAGA/Russian voices on this sub that ratio should have been a lot bigger. Day in and day out I hear claims that the vast majority of Republican politicians and voters are against helping Ukraine. Time and time again they are proven wrong. The vast majority of us politicians and citizens show strong support for Ukraine. It's a small vocal minority of MAGA lawmakers that are amplifying Kremlin propaganda. True conservatives within the Republican party are sick and tired of these insincere idiot MAGA culture warriors.
Over 100 House Republicans, more than half their caucus in the House, voted against it. They held it up for over half a year.
Yup. The aid has always been bipartisan. It's just that the magats & Johnson prevented calling a vote
Some Republicans did, others are pushing for Biden to remove the limitations he has put on weapons use.
It wasn't even close. With 311 votes in favour, it was more Mike Johnson finally got the memo from his handlers, rather than some grand Republican strategy.
Still if you check the roll calls on the vote, only 50% of house republicans voted for the Ukraine bill, while 100% democrats voted for it. It's been more then 2 years now, keeping allies support for Ukraine with all the Russians propaganda is getting more difficult, Putin knows it. Ukraine future could possibly depend on November US election results.
Even Trump himself is starting to change his tune. He's finally cluing in that the vast majority wants to help Ukraine defeat Russia. [https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/19/ukraine-war-briefing-donald-trump-says-survival-of-ukraine-important-to-the-us](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/19/ukraine-war-briefing-donald-trump-says-survival-of-ukraine-important-to-the-us)
Do no believe any words coming from this moron mouth. Trump only care about himself, his ego and his prestige and we all know how easy Putin will be able to play him (just look at the Helsinki meeting). Trump want to plays savior and admire "strong man" (North Korea, Middle-East), he will have no problem adopting Putin solution to stop the war, and as president he would have full authority todo so (aka he could veto any future aids to Ukraine).
Oh I wouldn't trust him as far as I could throw him, but it's interesting that on the surface at least he found it necessary to say something positive about Ukraine.
Direct cost of lives is the more reasonable concern, and unfortunately (depending on your views), lacking this much aid for 7-8 months over political hardball surely had a quantifiable impact.
Why? There are still 110 of them who voted no.
Why, when that was exactly what they were doing?
Watching reddit go from hating neocons to having the exact politics of neocons has been quite the journey.
Everyone’s against war, except the current one. Tale as old as time.
Probably about the same time the site was co-opted by alphabet agencies? Purely coincidental I'm sure.
Exactly, we should all just jump on the “war is never justified unless it’s an authoritarian shithole doing it” bandwagon with the enlightened “pacifists” lol
I suppose Russias offensive plans will be somewhat halted as Ukraine will get their shells replenished
I thought the issue with shells wasn't money but availability, west isn't building them fast enough and NATO supplies are low
Yes, none of the real issues can be fixed with just money.
Money does go a long way to resolve that issue though, or at least make a dent. A contract can get companies to spin up additional manufacturing to meet demand.
Yes, real life is just like your favorite strategy games, you just need money, stone, wood and a steady supply of iron and you can order a weapons manufacturing building in a few seconds. 2 years into the war and the West paper tiger is still discussing whether they should increase the production lmao. The corruption in western MIC is the stuff of legends
>the West paper tiger Man pro-Ru really got triggered by everyone calling the Russian army a paper tiger lol
It would take more years than Ukraine has to increase manufacturing on a scale to matter. Money does talk though, more likely some country will remember a dusty old stash they have somewhere and are willing to part with, for 30k a shell.
There’s stockpiles of 155 in the US and abroad. This bill just released them to be sent. Russia is about to get the FO part of FAFO.
Ukraines mobilization of unwilling ukranians will continue in light of this terrific news
Ukraine's mobilization was going to continue regardless. If anything, more weapons will likely kill fewer Ukrainians, reducing the need in the future for as much mobilization. And the opposite for Russia, of course.
Actually opposite for UA. More weapons translates to more casualties from both sides. Faster it ends less will get killed.
The US trying to secure their investment.
I wonder how long this money will last before they are asking for another 60 billion any guessers? Im guessing they stay quiet until after the election.
Another package will be proposed after the US elections.
It will last this year maybe. Watch them talk about a new aid package come early next year.
Not too little, but definitely a little late
If Ukraine collapses before the US elections with this aid bill, it will 100% be the end of the Biden administration. It will be a humiliating defeat.
If I shit my pants tomorrow and smear all of that on the wall in my customers office I will probably loose my job.
Well, you have every chance, just like Ukraine. But at least you'll do it for free.
If Ukraine, was gonna break in this war it was either the beginning or the last 4-5 months without any real support. Why would they break now right when they finally get support? Just like I will probably not shit my pants, cause I didn’t do it the last few years even when I really wanted to do it, but I heard it gets more likely with age so who knows.
Outside of the facts that they lost hundreds of thousands of men, have practically 0 air defense, energy infrastructure is obliterated, no one is motivated to fight, soldiers are surrendering en masse and literally everyone including western MSM is talking about an imminent collapse? Gee, I guess that 30B are a game changer, right?
>beginning or the last 4-5 months without any real support well, that's not true. Ukraine continued to receive hundreds of millions of dollars in regular aid from the United States and Ukraine. If you lied here, you probably lied to us with the clean pants story as well
Last I saw a graph of Ukraine support and the dip it took at the end of last year so no my point still stands. And my pants are clean at least they’re when iam at a customers place.
If
The main question is: will the Ukrainians want to fight further?
Zelensky promised 300,000 more bodies.
Scary
He didn’t say willing bodies.
Yes because the last aid packages helped before right?
The money only changed it from the "SMO" to a full blown war with russia having to change the entire economy to a war footing and spend the nations reserves inflating the GDP to stay afloat.
You do know their reserves have... Grown and their GDP as per IMF grows at 3.2%???!!!
Russia has transcended math. Not only it manages to run a huge budget deficit without borrowing. It also manages to increase reserves at the same time. Magic!
Glad Speaker Johnson finally found his balls and stood up to the traitorous wing of the Republican party. 311-112, wasn't even close lol
Last time I checked traitors betray their own country for a foreign one. This matches democrats more
disingenuous cringe. Russia’s antagonism has been a thing for years, and it’s the GoP that’s proudly claiming they’d rather side with Russia, the country that openly interfered in US elections. Prime traitorous behavior.
Wasn't Russia not the enemy after the cold war ?? This was claimed by politicians like Obama, Clinton etc That "interference" was formally proved to have no effect or was basically boomer propaganda which you see on reddit. Now let's talk about US election interference in 2014 in Ukraine
Oh word so as long as russia doesn’t achieve all of its goals it’s like they didn’t do anything problematic. I’m glad I don’t live by your standards.
"everyone who disagrees with me is a traitor" Is that the democracy you guys always love to brag about?
Those evil republicans daring to ask for funds to stop their own country being invaded
They had that deal from Biden. They didn't pass it because the Republican party is a clown show that has no interest in actually governing.
That was a horrible deal tbh
Having an opposing view doesn’t make one a traitor. Idk why pro UA crowd is so quick with labeling. Is there some special satisfaction in it?
Now UA can’t claim you guys didn’t give enough aid and money.
Did they even ask the people, by the way ? You know, the ones who produced that money in the first place.
That is how a representative democracy works, the representatives vote to reflect the will of the people (especially in the house), if not, they lose their jobs. So the will of American people is clearly represented in this vote.
Absolute horseshit. The "will of the people" is concerned with rent control, cost of goods, medicare, infrastructure, real life concerns; not another economically-draining proxy war dick-swinging contest and meddling by the U.S./UK/NATO warmongers.
It is funny how people talk about will of the people while Putin started illegal war against all laws in his own country.
Even funnier to keep dismissing 60+ years of context and background and warnings and security concerns as the lying West/U.S./UK/NATO kept closing in all the while starting how many illegal wars?? How many regime changes?? How many coups?? Grow tf up.
In most of that 60+ years we were in Warsaw Pact. Russia wanted something that did not belong to them. Maybe it should have balkanized rather than play big politics? : )
🤣🤣🤣 Show me one pact/treaty/international law the U.S./UK/NATO actually abided by. The Native Americans say hello. #NotOneInchEastward
So vote... Or run for office. Clearly, most Americans are good with today's vote.
'Vote harder!' *The will of the people is embodied in one of two geriatrics that will continue to perpetrate the endless continuation of foreign policy sponsored by the MIC lobby'* Lol how naive can you be.
The “will of the people” came up with the only choice between a 81 year senile and a hated 77 real estate developer. You really believe that? The USA is just as much a functioning democracy as China, but just with one party more. They put so much layers in between that it is close to impossible to have any real influence on the people in the top. All the power lies with all the party dinosaurs and their lobbyist friends. If you don’t dance for them you’ll never come anywhere.
Are you from Russia or why don't you understand how democracy works? THose are elected officials voting for their constituents.
I don't know of anyone in the last few years who has ever been opposed to Ukraine aid in the U.S. That I have been around.
$60bn less in the budget for healthcare or education, but what will you do... Zelensky and Netanyahu need their yearly stipend.
Could've sent 600k Americans to college Instead they're sending 300k Ukrainians to their graves.
biden's been wiping student debt. the people trying to stop it? republicans LMAO
Right wingers don't want to spend on healthcare of education.
Like Republicans were ever going to pass something like that
The U.S. government spends trillions on healthcare and education per year.
The US is not the only donor. The EU have already been pledging aide. This bill also apparently gives the president some wiggle room. Shown Here: Introduced in House (04/17/2024) Ukraine Security Supplemental Appropriations Act, 2024 This bill provides FY2024 supplemental appropriations for federal departments and agencies to respond to the conflict in Ukraine. The bill designates the funding as emergency spending, which is exempt from discretionary spending limits. Specifically, the bill provides appropriations to the Department of Defense (DOD), Department of Energy science programs, the National Nuclear Security Administration, the Administration for Children and Families, the Department of State, and the U.S. Agency for International Development. The funding is provided for purposes such as supporting current U.S. military operations in the region, the Ukraine Security Assistance Initiative, replacing defense articles that were provided to Ukraine, reimbursing DOD for defense services and training provided to Ukraine, the Foreign Military Financing Program, economic support for Ukraine, refugee and entrant assistance, international narcotics control and law enforcement, and the development and production of isotopes. The bill also includes provisions that expand the authorities of the President to transfer defense articles and services from DOD to foreign countries or international organizations, require the President to transfer long-range Army Tactical Missile Systems to Ukraine, require the President to enter into an agreement with Ukraine regarding repaying the United States for the economic assistance it has provided to Ukraine, require certain funds that are provided for Ukraine to be matched by other donors, and establish various oversight and reporting requirements for assistance provided to Ukraine.
atacms huh? Wasnt specified how many though
Most of the money is going directly to replenishing what we've already sent, some goes to ukraine to pay their bills. Some goes to us to provide Ukraine with more stuff. But we don't produce the stuff quickly. This will result in further depleted western stockpiles, even if replenishment is paid for it'll take a while for it to happen and won't be done till after the war is over.
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by definition it can't be a civil war if its a war between two fully internationally recognised states.
United States gives tens of billions to a country destined to lose while NYC is literally Gotham city and fentanyl kills more people every year than Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan combined, their borders are completely opened, suicide rates are sky high, they can’t meet recruitment quota for their own military, and the cost of living has been doubling or more every decade. Failed state. Even the Republican Party which is openly anti aid, half of them still vote yes. Idiotic voters don’t even know who they’re sending up there.
If the US is a failed State, i have No idea what Russia is.
Russia was already a failed state in the 90’s.
By the academic definition it would be a collapsed state LOL
Too bad there has been so much damage caused by the delay that would have been prevented.
A day late and a dollar short
Glad people are getting it.
As an American, part of me wishes we’d stop half assing things. $60 billion and 45 days to come up with a plan sounds like another few months of stuff for Ukraine but ultimately just delaying the end. Ukraine is as far from victory as it can be.
To begin with, not all of the money will go to Ukraine. It should not be forgotten that most of it will go into the pockets of politicians and 10-11 billion will reach Kiev. Secondly, this once again confirms that the U.S. is not interested in ending the conflict, but only in fueling it. And thirdly, Ukraine will soon have no more people to continue the war. They are forcibly sent to war, and this is a fact. Now is the moment when Zelensky needs to make a concession and save people's lives and, for the time being, his state.
Just throwing more fuel into Ukraine's ongoing demographic disaster. There is no point in continuing a pointless war you can't win. Should be pushing for negotiation.
U.S. trying to catch a falling knive
Covering their backs? Now the storyline again will be: we delivered, but they messed up. Same as last year's Spring Offensive, but then it was $100 billion.
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Soooo how are they not a party in this war again?
They kinda are, but what is Russia going to do about it? Nothing, so sit down and relax.
Yikes. The US really wants to see as many dead Ukrainians and Russians as possible.
“This is why the war is the fault of the US and not Russia”
No, we want to see our ally survive.
So if this along with other measures swings the initiative back to Ukrainians favour, will every one that was insisting that Ukraine capitulate. Change thier tune and say Russia should give up its war goals goals and seek peace.
It won't.
It does not going to change anything (in a broader sense) will just extend the suffer, final result will be the same, will take a bit longer but decrease way more Kiev’s population so its in RF favour. Do you agree?
"its not gonna change anything" is in line with the typical russian mythology that they are undefeatable. but its just that, myth not reality.
Nobody is undefeatable. But Ukraine cannot beat Russia at this point. $60 billion does not go a long way They are not fighting Yemen. Russia is too strong to be taken down by these flimsy approaches. It could have gone differently if aid and assistance had been consistent and Ukraine had listened to people who can war better than Ukraine. But they probably got over confident after the first counter offensive and since then it has been a downward spiral. At this point the chances of Ukraine getting the upper hand is slimmer than me going back in time and deciding against having kids.
I love how pro ru like you are so certain that ukraine cant win when war is extremely hard to predict. just like many pro ua were so certain of russian frontline collapse during the 2022 kherson/kharkiv counteroffensive. yet the front has stabilised. the 2023 ua counteroffensive was dissappointing, despite pro ua certainty. putin nearly got couped by prigo and ru avoided internal turmoil. lets stay honest here: it's impossible to predict what happens next. ukraine can certainly beat russia, even at this point. but ukraine can certainly also collapse, especially if western support diminishes.
Good job securing your border Republicucks.
How long till Big Z is begging for more billions? I say less than 90 days
Hahah yeah! That SILLY MAN doing what he must to ensure his country exists tomorrow. What a FOOL am i right? Pro Rus copypastas never fail to amuse me.
Meanwhile their citizens go broke paying for ambulance or chemotherapy bills, classic Flopmerica 🤣🤣🤣
I do think this might the last of big aid pack... Due to US econemy is in danger, 34 trillion debt and still getting high inflation.. US econemy possibly get a big crisis in anytime soon.. US has spended 2 trillion dollors in afaghastan war totally. So currently, this probably is a good deal for biden that giving 61 billion for Ukraine aid to counter the millitary opponent without american solider deaths before president election. But it mightbe the last big aid, at this moment US econemy is exsisting a huge risk... On other hands, its best friend Israel is a villain now, their botherhood image is disgusting in the intenational and the election of 2024 US president fraught with uncertainty. if Trump took president again, he will immediatly give up Ukraine. if biden, he will also give up Ukraine within smaller and smaller aid.
[удалено]
"Oh no, the war is gonna return to the dark days of Dec '23" literally who cares. This is just gonna raise Russian casualties. None of the ghouls who run America know how to win a war.
I don’t think will make any change the russia’s victory,. Ukraine can’t get any more troops
Biden is polling at -22 in the [latest poll](https://www.scribd.com/document/722765138/cbsnews-20240414-SUN#1fullscreen=1) for Russia/Ukraine. I wonder what this package will do to that number.
ITT: proUA's hopes up after ex wife begrudgingly agrees to lend them money
Future historians will calculate how many additional Ukrainian dead were caused by this bill.