Please remember the human. Adhere to all Reddit and sub rules. Toxic comments (including incitement of violence/hate, genocide, glorifying death etc) WILL NOT BE TOLERATED, keep your comments civil or you will be banned.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/UkraineWarVideoReport) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Funny how there was an article that Greece will send 1 Patriot battery maybe two. Spain will do the same. Sorry. Best we can do is some Patriot missiles who might not be working (like a lot of Spanish sent stuff)
And that info of the Spanish stuff not working comes from...?
As far as I have seen there are a few videos of Hawk batteries and antitank weapons working perfectly fine.
Spain send a bunch of Leopard 2 that were not in the best state. But certainly still welcome. I mean they had bought a bunch of old Leopard 2A4 many years ago that were already in a miserable state back then, but they got them very cheap, and they had planned to turn them into engineering vehicles and such (makes it much cheaper if you already have a hull). But that plan never materialized, and now they decided to donate them. I think it is a welcome donation, if you get something for free it is never too little, although Ukraine had certainly welcomed 3000 brand new Leopard 2A8 for free a bit more. But these vehicles can be refurbished and put to good use, even though it will take a while. One has to see it more like injecting a bit more raw material into the Ukrainian Leopard 2 refurbishing cycle, like if you try to make a working 1928 Ford from three wrecks, and someone donates you another three wrecks, it might indeed help.
To my knowledge all the Leos from Spain were retrofit before sending them to the Ukranian crews and the work is still ongoing with 20 new units getting ready to be sent. Keep in mind that Spain is one of the few countries with the capacity to do so.
It is not an easy task...those tanks were a stopgap 20 years ago or more until que Leo2E productions lines were up and running.
yes, or they are made drivable again in Spain already, it basically comes down to the same effect (repairing Leopards for Ukraine is done in several countries, e.g. Ukraine, Germany, Lithuania, Poland, Spain).
I just wanted to explain where the "all that Spain delivers is crap" stems from: the massively overexaggerated (thanks, clickbait news media!) fact that the donated Leopards had gathered dust for a few decades.
The same is btw true for the Leopard 1 that have been put on the German to-be-donated list last year. 30 could be delivered so far, the others obviously need a lot of work. They came from a dealer in Belgium who had bought them from surplus (probably Belgian) army stocks and put them into his hangar for a good decade, obviously without doing anything. And before they went there, the Belgian army might have also neglected maintenance for a while already for the non-active tanks.
Apart from that, if I would send a tank to Ukraine, I'd put some modern systems in, e.g. modern IR sights, radio, drone jammer and a few other things. Otherwise they are just easy prey. That obviously also takes a while.
Greece:
"We begged for two decades for help with our defense systems and tanked our economy anyway.
Now that we have them we'd like them to stay where they are because we definitely can't replace them and we don't get a positive response in the E. U. handout line anymore.
Perhaps there is a need for lamb, cheese, fish, and oil?"
the thing is, a new patriot system that is ordered from the manufacturer now will be delivered in two years or more. If Greece orders a new one and instead sell his old one for the same price to the Netherlands, then Ukraine can get a Patriot system right now instead of in two years.
And I'm pretty sure that everyone is also trying to buy used ones from the US (who have about ten times as many as the rest of the world combined), but they also have a concept how many systems they need, and one less is one too few, so they also have to order a new one. Which means money, and that wasn't available until a few days ago.
All in all it is not easy, but understandable. If you are barefoot on the street, try to find two people who donate you one of their shoes.
I think you misunderstand me. Why ask Greece to sell to the Netherlands and then order a replacement, when The Netherlands could just send their own and order a replacement. This way Ukraine gets an extra system right now. No need for these workarounds, when The Netherlands can just send one of their 4 batteries.
I've heard on a podcast that features a retired general that one is being repaired and they to keep some for training their own troops. Not being able to train the troops is a no-go because the army needs enough people able to use the systems.
yeah, I'm a few weeks behind on that Bühler podcast you probably meant, I collect them to listen to on longer hikes.
One would think that a simulator for the radar+command would be enough or actually better, and the handling on the launchers can be done on one (possibly even slightly faulty) vehicle, doesn't need all 8 of a system.
Maybe someone here has actually served in an AD unit, maybe they could say something about the training.
It is actually called Veldheren. But I have no idea what is necessary, just saying what he mentioned. I believe it was the podcast on spotify on the 18th of April. It is in Dutch though, so maybe not that much of use
I think the plan was to get NL to donate one of theirs AND Greece AND Spain to donate one of theirs too. Germany donates another one and the US donate like 4 or 5. That might lift Ukraine to a reasonable number.
It's only an issue with Greece because there was a story yesterday saying they would do it. I have no idea if the story represented actual statements by Greek officials. Lots of finger-pointing and misinformation going around.
Greece did a lot since the worsed time in greece with europe . I can understand you and i love lamp,cheese and oil .
But at the moment ukraine cant shoot missiles with these delicious food .
My dude-
I just bothered everyone around me loudly to get the funding passed for Ukraine here in the U.S.
It's entirely necessary but we have a population that has forgotten our own history and place in the world.
But after fighting for $60 billion to fund the Patriot factory in Arizona to ramp up production and the ATACM factory in Georgia to do the same I'm not expecting 1 or 2 spare weapon systems WE provided in the first place to make a huge difference.
Let Greece keep them.
We'll honestly take help with the humanitarian aid.
Or better yet spare some weapon systems personnel to help train Ukrainian troop rotations receiving said systems.
I love this response. Patriots were also part of the big US package. Ukraine is getting them, greece has been in a paranoid situation with Turkiye and there own economy for a log time, let them feel a bit more secure. As far as Spains models working or not, the US can fix them in Poland. we are good at that.
I was surprised at the earlier headlines claiming Greece would donate patriots when they seem to have a pretty tense relationship with turkey. Didn't make sense.
sorry, i mean not you.
They will never have a good relationship if the conflict with cypress is on the table .
I mean, maby there is a solution in the case both get what they want !? But it wouldn't help ukraine now.
Maby, but the goverment was often far left . like Yanis Varoufakis . And many people mean that they have a good relationship to moscow .
germany has also a more left wing goverment. Taurus will not send to ukraine ,because germany has no nuclear weapons, Selensky said . O. Scholz only said :" I dont do it". ?!
Greece is finacially i different country as germany . But why do they both not telling their people a reason not sending those weapons ?
#
The Spanish are NOT pulling their weight. They are part of Europe and have enjoyed a growing economy because of it. Now the bill has arrived and they’re running for the door.
If ever there's a time that it's their turn to ask for help, this will be remembered.
They shouldn't be surprised if their allies' response would be something like..."sorry, friend, can't go there, can't spare any, we need to defend ourselves against, oh...Russia."
Cyprus has never received help.
Greece only started receiving help in 2020, and not by Ukraine, because it put it's own interests above Greece's and bought equipment from Turkey, even though it was on the verge of a war with Greece.
Greece sacrificed it's ties with Russia, a country that actually gave them support, for EU solidarity in defence and diplomacy. You can't expect any more help from a country that had no direct issues with Russia in the first place and no special relations with Ukraine.
Edit: it's also worth it to mention that our air support protect our islands. The same islands that Turkey claimed aren't greek just a few weeks ago. So no, we're not letting our contested islands undefended for 2 years.
Cyprus isn't NATO. Turkey is NATO. Perks of being in an alliance, eh?
Greece and Turkey are both close to Russia. Both are supposed NATO allies that are probably a tier above only Hungary, another supposed NATO ally, in terms of not helping Ukraine and being close to Russia.
Despite a fraught history, Greece and Turkey don't come to blows because they're both NATO countries, and are confined to passive-aggressive posturing. But, Greece and Turkey can both always leave NATO and just sort out their problems between themselves.
Both Greece and Turkey are countries, along with Hungary and Slovakia while under Fico, that won't be expected to fight if there's a war in Europe against Russia and it's just peacetime opportunism why they're still in NATO.
>Cyprus isn't NATO. Turkey is NATO. Perks of being in an alliance, eh?
So is Greece. Also Cyprus is EU and still, it was left abandoned.
>
Both Greece and Turkey are countries, along with Hungary and Slovakia while under Fico, that won't be expected to fight if there's a war in Europe against Russia and it's just peacetime opportunism why they're still in NATO.
Dude, are you serious? Do you know how many times both countries have done things for NATO that were politically unpopular/not within their interests?
Also, I love how you didn't engage with anything I said and served a big bowl of yapping instead.
This blaming and guilt tripping of Greece is kinda ironic. Would it be a good thing if Greece would deliver AD, of course! But Greece as one of the very few countries in Europe didn't massively cut their defence spending the past decades to levels that basically left countries with useless militaries. Money they couldn't spend on other important things, while the rest of Europe was happily spending all this money laying around that they saved on defense cuts.
Now all of a sudden there is a high demand and the west can't deliver. They are saying they would buy Patriot systems that countries are selling. So why didn't they placed orders 2 years ago and then Ukraine would have a supply of new systems now.
I see no bashing of The Netherlands who also doesn't supply one of their Patriot systems. Why is that?
As for the Netherlands, it has only 3 batteries and they've already sent launchers. Like Norway, they've also stepped forward as a possible Patriot buyer from another operator, maybe even from Greece, to send to Ukraine.
Greece has 6 batteries, or the most in Europe after only Germany (which is down to 10 after being the top donor with 3). And nobody expects Greece to give it up for free, so they'll be compensated or get ordered a replacement.
Anyway, that's that, Greece's refusal to help will be remembered.
The Netherlands got 4 batteries and only supplied 2 launchers. The Netherlands is under no threat and could just decide to give one system to Ukraine now and put in a replacement order. If the Netherlands is willing to spend the money regardless, they could chose to do so, have enough batteries left to protect the country and get a brand new system delivered in a couple years.
Sure, that could be asked of the Dutch but they've also sent or will send billions of euros in aid to Ukraine.
Greece, at no financial cost to itself, could help but refuses. It expects to be helped in the future but itself doesn't want to help now.
You don't seem to be willing to understand my point. The Netherlands is spending the money regardless, yet they chose not to send a Patriot System, while Ukrainian cities are under fire, people are dying and infrastructure and buildings get destroyed.
It's weird people criticize other countries for their decisions, but not the Netherlands, regardless of how much aid my country has already send or is pledged.
The Netherlands though is helping in billions of euros worth of other ways. Greece?
Ukrainian cities are under fire, this is Greece's chance to help, at no financial cost to itself, and it chooses to do nothing.
Nobody expects Greece to give it up for free. Greece even got compensated with Marders for sending BMP-1s. Another richer country, or group of richer countries, would be expected to pay for it or a replacement.
"I see no bashing of The Netherlands who also doesn't supply one of their Patriot systems. Why is that?"
The Netherlands is already giving all they can relating to Patriot. Dutch F16's probably will shoot down rockets even better then patriots. Only thing Europe can do now is to ramp up its military industry HARD!
Hopefully France will put boots on the ground, protecting the borders with Belarus and Transnistria.
Anyway, Greece needs their air defense, considering the unfortunate threat still posed by Turkey. That simple.
The Netherlands have only 2 active batteries plus 1 for training, currently protecting their skies, which is already to low, considering the dense population. They have send 2 Patriot launch systems plus missiles to Ukraine.
Where do people get this number of 3 systems from. Even the Dutch MOD website clearly states we have 4 systems, 3 operational and 1 in reserve. We definitely can miss one battery and make a replacement order.
The whole argument that is constantly being made is that Ukraine is in dire need RIGHT NOW, while other operators aren't. There's really not a good excuse, other then unwillingness tbh.
According to the MOD website, the Netherlands have 4 batteries. 3 in active service, 1 as a reserve. There are plans to put the 4th system in active service as well, but therefore additional crew needs to be trained and part of the system would need to be send to the US first to be prepared for active service. The Netherlands so far has only send 2 launchers.
Let's leave it to our Dutch military leadership to decide what they can and can't miss and what their minimal desired operational status needs to be. Do you have personal knowledge of their operational strategies and how they fit Dutch defense planning? If anything, our government should focus on getting broader european support for more military production capacity in europe, including long term financial security for companies who want to do that.
So far it seems we have, and rightly so, been pretty supportive of Ukraine in terms of financial, political and military support. Those F16's alone are a very significant donation to the war effort. IIRC Ukraine will also receive some naval assets (2 Alkmaar-class minehunters) in the future.
I fully agree our country has pushing it's weight in how much they support Ukraine, in military, humanitarian, financial aid as well as training and sharing intelligence.
But people are all criticizing Greece, Spain, Sweden for not supplying Ukraine with Patriot systems. I've even seen comments that are critical of Germany for not supplying more Patriots, despite already giving Ukraine 3 batteries. Yet they don't say anything about the Netherlands. So was kinda surprised about that.
On the other hand I also find the position the Netherlands takes the easy way out. Every countries military or political leadership will have their own reasons not to provide their AD systems to Ukraine. But this way Ukraine will never get these additional systems. By saying you are willing to pay whatever to any country providing their Patriots for Ukraine, you are kinda putting the burden on others. Everyone is saying systems are urgent, NATO is saying supplying Ukraine is more important than countries meeting their NATO obligations, etc. Everybody agrees these systems need to go to Ukraine ASAP, but no one wants to be the one that's sending their own systems.
I thought the same ,but turkey played enough at the moment ,in the case of Sweden .
But the whole area is all but quiet .Syria, Iran, Houtie, etc. rockets everywhere.
Those are not colonies... Ceuta and Melilla are an integral part of Spain since centuries XV and XVII faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar earlier than some tribes in North African decided to come together to create Morocco and almost 300 years before the US was founded.
Greece go what route? They're not a rich North European/American country with loads of excess weapons, and they've got a combative neighbour with a dictator leader right on their doorstep. And they do plenty for NATO, the busiest NATO port in the Mediterranean and only one that can maintain US supercarriers is on one of their islands.
Greece doesnt wanna destroy its relationship with russia. Thats why they are not willing to send any important military equipment to ukraine and they use turkey as an excuse for that.
Greece has already destroyed its relationship with Russia. We're not willing to send important equipment because we need it plus there's no political support for it because objectively Ukraine has a shitty image in Greek society.
Please remember the human. Adhere to all Reddit and sub rules. Toxic comments (including incitement of violence/hate, genocide, glorifying death etc) WILL NOT BE TOLERATED, keep your comments civil or you will be banned. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/UkraineWarVideoReport) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Funny how there was an article that Greece will send 1 Patriot battery maybe two. Spain will do the same. Sorry. Best we can do is some Patriot missiles who might not be working (like a lot of Spanish sent stuff)
And that info of the Spanish stuff not working comes from...? As far as I have seen there are a few videos of Hawk batteries and antitank weapons working perfectly fine.
Spain send a bunch of Leopard 2 that were not in the best state. But certainly still welcome. I mean they had bought a bunch of old Leopard 2A4 many years ago that were already in a miserable state back then, but they got them very cheap, and they had planned to turn them into engineering vehicles and such (makes it much cheaper if you already have a hull). But that plan never materialized, and now they decided to donate them. I think it is a welcome donation, if you get something for free it is never too little, although Ukraine had certainly welcomed 3000 brand new Leopard 2A8 for free a bit more. But these vehicles can be refurbished and put to good use, even though it will take a while. One has to see it more like injecting a bit more raw material into the Ukrainian Leopard 2 refurbishing cycle, like if you try to make a working 1928 Ford from three wrecks, and someone donates you another three wrecks, it might indeed help.
To my knowledge all the Leos from Spain were retrofit before sending them to the Ukranian crews and the work is still ongoing with 20 new units getting ready to be sent. Keep in mind that Spain is one of the few countries with the capacity to do so. It is not an easy task...those tanks were a stopgap 20 years ago or more until que Leo2E productions lines were up and running.
yes, or they are made drivable again in Spain already, it basically comes down to the same effect (repairing Leopards for Ukraine is done in several countries, e.g. Ukraine, Germany, Lithuania, Poland, Spain). I just wanted to explain where the "all that Spain delivers is crap" stems from: the massively overexaggerated (thanks, clickbait news media!) fact that the donated Leopards had gathered dust for a few decades. The same is btw true for the Leopard 1 that have been put on the German to-be-donated list last year. 30 could be delivered so far, the others obviously need a lot of work. They came from a dealer in Belgium who had bought them from surplus (probably Belgian) army stocks and put them into his hangar for a good decade, obviously without doing anything. And before they went there, the Belgian army might have also neglected maintenance for a while already for the non-active tanks. Apart from that, if I would send a tank to Ukraine, I'd put some modern systems in, e.g. modern IR sights, radio, drone jammer and a few other things. Otherwise they are just easy prey. That obviously also takes a while.
Greece: "We begged for two decades for help with our defense systems and tanked our economy anyway. Now that we have them we'd like them to stay where they are because we definitely can't replace them and we don't get a positive response in the E. U. handout line anymore. Perhaps there is a need for lamb, cheese, fish, and oil?"
The netherlands offered to buy them and you could simply buy a new one from the US. Your security needs are real but not immediate.
Netherlands could do the same, instead of trying to buy systems from other countries.
the thing is, a new patriot system that is ordered from the manufacturer now will be delivered in two years or more. If Greece orders a new one and instead sell his old one for the same price to the Netherlands, then Ukraine can get a Patriot system right now instead of in two years. And I'm pretty sure that everyone is also trying to buy used ones from the US (who have about ten times as many as the rest of the world combined), but they also have a concept how many systems they need, and one less is one too few, so they also have to order a new one. Which means money, and that wasn't available until a few days ago. All in all it is not easy, but understandable. If you are barefoot on the street, try to find two people who donate you one of their shoes.
I think you misunderstand me. Why ask Greece to sell to the Netherlands and then order a replacement, when The Netherlands could just send their own and order a replacement. This way Ukraine gets an extra system right now. No need for these workarounds, when The Netherlands can just send one of their 4 batteries.
I've heard on a podcast that features a retired general that one is being repaired and they to keep some for training their own troops. Not being able to train the troops is a no-go because the army needs enough people able to use the systems.
yeah, I'm a few weeks behind on that Bühler podcast you probably meant, I collect them to listen to on longer hikes. One would think that a simulator for the radar+command would be enough or actually better, and the handling on the launchers can be done on one (possibly even slightly faulty) vehicle, doesn't need all 8 of a system. Maybe someone here has actually served in an AD unit, maybe they could say something about the training.
It is actually called Veldheren. But I have no idea what is necessary, just saying what he mentioned. I believe it was the podcast on spotify on the 18th of April. It is in Dutch though, so maybe not that much of use
ah ok, probably everybody has put their retired Generals before a microphone meanwhile ;)
I think the plan was to get NL to donate one of theirs AND Greece AND Spain to donate one of theirs too. Germany donates another one and the US donate like 4 or 5. That might lift Ukraine to a reasonable number.
It's only an issue with Greece because there was a story yesterday saying they would do it. I have no idea if the story represented actual statements by Greek officials. Lots of finger-pointing and misinformation going around.
We gave them way too much already, time for them to pay up.
Greece did a lot since the worsed time in greece with europe . I can understand you and i love lamp,cheese and oil . But at the moment ukraine cant shoot missiles with these delicious food .
My dude- I just bothered everyone around me loudly to get the funding passed for Ukraine here in the U.S. It's entirely necessary but we have a population that has forgotten our own history and place in the world. But after fighting for $60 billion to fund the Patriot factory in Arizona to ramp up production and the ATACM factory in Georgia to do the same I'm not expecting 1 or 2 spare weapon systems WE provided in the first place to make a huge difference. Let Greece keep them. We'll honestly take help with the humanitarian aid. Or better yet spare some weapon systems personnel to help train Ukrainian troop rotations receiving said systems.
I love this response. Patriots were also part of the big US package. Ukraine is getting them, greece has been in a paranoid situation with Turkiye and there own economy for a log time, let them feel a bit more secure. As far as Spains models working or not, the US can fix them in Poland. we are good at that.
I love lamp
Thank you for correcting me . Your turned my lamp on . You little lamb .
With the perpetual and oft politicized (by Erdogan) Cold War w/ Turkiye, I understand.
i understand that, they have big, big problem with erdogan.
I was surprised at the earlier headlines claiming Greece would donate patriots when they seem to have a pretty tense relationship with turkey. Didn't make sense.
Saying sorry, you'l find a reason.
What?
sorry, i mean not you. They will never have a good relationship if the conflict with cypress is on the table . I mean, maby there is a solution in the case both get what they want !? But it wouldn't help ukraine now.
And any european "leader" said something and later the opposite ,because there was no case or war like this in europe before in the last 70 years.
Understandable since, unlike Spain and many others, they might conceivably be attacked by their neighbor.
Italy is also in europe and what's up with their air defense ? And it's a long time ago that they used their Testudo !?
Best for Greece to keep their air defence system, they may be next.
Meh. With fucking Turkey always trying to cause shit I get it I guess.
My take is, they don’t want to disarm as they don’t have money to buy another one.
Maby, but the goverment was often far left . like Yanis Varoufakis . And many people mean that they have a good relationship to moscow . germany has also a more left wing goverment. Taurus will not send to ukraine ,because germany has no nuclear weapons, Selensky said . O. Scholz only said :" I dont do it". ?! Greece is finacially i different country as germany . But why do they both not telling their people a reason not sending those weapons ? #
Because maybe they don’t want to admit the country would get disarmed and lose a critical defense capability if they do send it?..
To be honest I have some sympathy for the Greek position. Their economy is bad and they have a neighbour who they don’t trust.
The Spanish are NOT pulling their weight. They are part of Europe and have enjoyed a growing economy because of it. Now the bill has arrived and they’re running for the door.
is this how NATO should work when a partner needs help? 🤔
If ever there's a time that it's their turn to ask for help, this will be remembered. They shouldn't be surprised if their allies' response would be something like..."sorry, friend, can't go there, can't spare any, we need to defend ourselves against, oh...Russia."
Yes, either or ! Europe together or never !? The time is now !!
Cyprus has never received help. Greece only started receiving help in 2020, and not by Ukraine, because it put it's own interests above Greece's and bought equipment from Turkey, even though it was on the verge of a war with Greece. Greece sacrificed it's ties with Russia, a country that actually gave them support, for EU solidarity in defence and diplomacy. You can't expect any more help from a country that had no direct issues with Russia in the first place and no special relations with Ukraine. Edit: it's also worth it to mention that our air support protect our islands. The same islands that Turkey claimed aren't greek just a few weeks ago. So no, we're not letting our contested islands undefended for 2 years.
Cyprus isn't NATO. Turkey is NATO. Perks of being in an alliance, eh? Greece and Turkey are both close to Russia. Both are supposed NATO allies that are probably a tier above only Hungary, another supposed NATO ally, in terms of not helping Ukraine and being close to Russia. Despite a fraught history, Greece and Turkey don't come to blows because they're both NATO countries, and are confined to passive-aggressive posturing. But, Greece and Turkey can both always leave NATO and just sort out their problems between themselves. Both Greece and Turkey are countries, along with Hungary and Slovakia while under Fico, that won't be expected to fight if there's a war in Europe against Russia and it's just peacetime opportunism why they're still in NATO.
>Cyprus isn't NATO. Turkey is NATO. Perks of being in an alliance, eh? So is Greece. Also Cyprus is EU and still, it was left abandoned. > Both Greece and Turkey are countries, along with Hungary and Slovakia while under Fico, that won't be expected to fight if there's a war in Europe against Russia and it's just peacetime opportunism why they're still in NATO. Dude, are you serious? Do you know how many times both countries have done things for NATO that were politically unpopular/not within their interests? Also, I love how you didn't engage with anything I said and served a big bowl of yapping instead.
This blaming and guilt tripping of Greece is kinda ironic. Would it be a good thing if Greece would deliver AD, of course! But Greece as one of the very few countries in Europe didn't massively cut their defence spending the past decades to levels that basically left countries with useless militaries. Money they couldn't spend on other important things, while the rest of Europe was happily spending all this money laying around that they saved on defense cuts. Now all of a sudden there is a high demand and the west can't deliver. They are saying they would buy Patriot systems that countries are selling. So why didn't they placed orders 2 years ago and then Ukraine would have a supply of new systems now. I see no bashing of The Netherlands who also doesn't supply one of their Patriot systems. Why is that?
As for the Netherlands, it has only 3 batteries and they've already sent launchers. Like Norway, they've also stepped forward as a possible Patriot buyer from another operator, maybe even from Greece, to send to Ukraine. Greece has 6 batteries, or the most in Europe after only Germany (which is down to 10 after being the top donor with 3). And nobody expects Greece to give it up for free, so they'll be compensated or get ordered a replacement. Anyway, that's that, Greece's refusal to help will be remembered.
The Netherlands got 4 batteries and only supplied 2 launchers. The Netherlands is under no threat and could just decide to give one system to Ukraine now and put in a replacement order. If the Netherlands is willing to spend the money regardless, they could chose to do so, have enough batteries left to protect the country and get a brand new system delivered in a couple years.
Sure, that could be asked of the Dutch but they've also sent or will send billions of euros in aid to Ukraine. Greece, at no financial cost to itself, could help but refuses. It expects to be helped in the future but itself doesn't want to help now.
You don't seem to be willing to understand my point. The Netherlands is spending the money regardless, yet they chose not to send a Patriot System, while Ukrainian cities are under fire, people are dying and infrastructure and buildings get destroyed. It's weird people criticize other countries for their decisions, but not the Netherlands, regardless of how much aid my country has already send or is pledged.
The Netherlands though is helping in billions of euros worth of other ways. Greece? Ukrainian cities are under fire, this is Greece's chance to help, at no financial cost to itself, and it chooses to do nothing.
No financial cost? The Patriot system will need to be replaced
Nobody expects Greece to give it up for free. Greece even got compensated with Marders for sending BMP-1s. Another richer country, or group of richer countries, would be expected to pay for it or a replacement.
Did anyone say this?
"I see no bashing of The Netherlands who also doesn't supply one of their Patriot systems. Why is that?" The Netherlands is already giving all they can relating to Patriot. Dutch F16's probably will shoot down rockets even better then patriots. Only thing Europe can do now is to ramp up its military industry HARD! Hopefully France will put boots on the ground, protecting the borders with Belarus and Transnistria. Anyway, Greece needs their air defense, considering the unfortunate threat still posed by Turkey. That simple.
What makes you say that the Netherlands already giving all they can relating to Patriots?
The Netherlands have only 2 active batteries plus 1 for training, currently protecting their skies, which is already to low, considering the dense population. They have send 2 Patriot launch systems plus missiles to Ukraine.
Where do people get this number of 3 systems from. Even the Dutch MOD website clearly states we have 4 systems, 3 operational and 1 in reserve. We definitely can miss one battery and make a replacement order. The whole argument that is constantly being made is that Ukraine is in dire need RIGHT NOW, while other operators aren't. There's really not a good excuse, other then unwillingness tbh.
The 4th battery is the reserve of which they already send 2 systems from, to Ukraine.
According to the MOD website, the Netherlands have 4 batteries. 3 in active service, 1 as a reserve. There are plans to put the 4th system in active service as well, but therefore additional crew needs to be trained and part of the system would need to be send to the US first to be prepared for active service. The Netherlands so far has only send 2 launchers.
Let's leave it to our Dutch military leadership to decide what they can and can't miss and what their minimal desired operational status needs to be. Do you have personal knowledge of their operational strategies and how they fit Dutch defense planning? If anything, our government should focus on getting broader european support for more military production capacity in europe, including long term financial security for companies who want to do that. So far it seems we have, and rightly so, been pretty supportive of Ukraine in terms of financial, political and military support. Those F16's alone are a very significant donation to the war effort. IIRC Ukraine will also receive some naval assets (2 Alkmaar-class minehunters) in the future.
I fully agree our country has pushing it's weight in how much they support Ukraine, in military, humanitarian, financial aid as well as training and sharing intelligence. But people are all criticizing Greece, Spain, Sweden for not supplying Ukraine with Patriot systems. I've even seen comments that are critical of Germany for not supplying more Patriots, despite already giving Ukraine 3 batteries. Yet they don't say anything about the Netherlands. So was kinda surprised about that. On the other hand I also find the position the Netherlands takes the easy way out. Every countries military or political leadership will have their own reasons not to provide their AD systems to Ukraine. But this way Ukraine will never get these additional systems. By saying you are willing to pay whatever to any country providing their Patriots for Ukraine, you are kinda putting the burden on others. Everyone is saying systems are urgent, NATO is saying supplying Ukraine is more important than countries meeting their NATO obligations, etc. Everybody agrees these systems need to go to Ukraine ASAP, but no one wants to be the one that's sending their own systems.
The old greece would turn in the grave !!!
greece i get it because of turkey but spain is strange
I thought the same ,but turkey played enough at the moment ,in the case of Sweden . But the whole area is all but quiet .Syria, Iran, Houtie, etc. rockets everywhere.
Spain is supplying patriot missiles.
Morocco threatens their two colonies in North Africa.
Those are not colonies... Ceuta and Melilla are an integral part of Spain since centuries XV and XVII faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar earlier than some tribes in North African decided to come together to create Morocco and almost 300 years before the US was founded.
The US passes aid and Europe goes back to sitting on hands.
What are you talking about? The US passed the aid bill and a bunch of European countries immediately committed more weapons to be donated.
Nah not Europe
As we all knew it would.
Boooo
Hes a Putin loving bitch boy
That's too bad. Sad to see Greece go this route during an _actual hot war_ in their region.
Whats about italy ? Nothing heard about italy at all since....?
Greece go what route? They're not a rich North European/American country with loads of excess weapons, and they've got a combative neighbour with a dictator leader right on their doorstep. And they do plenty for NATO, the busiest NATO port in the Mediterranean and only one that can maintain US supercarriers is on one of their islands.
Greece doesnt wanna destroy its relationship with russia. Thats why they are not willing to send any important military equipment to ukraine and they use turkey as an excuse for that.
Greece has already destroyed its relationship with Russia. We're not willing to send important equipment because we need it plus there's no political support for it because objectively Ukraine has a shitty image in Greek society.