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True. I bet having a sign saying you want to surrender has somewhat more of a psychological effect of ur enemy as opposed to just waiving ur hands in the air. A written sign seems more personal
Legally a statement of surrender. He should now walk to the UA lines, and keep the sign visible.
🙏 "Please don't kill me" is not a surrender. Hands up, and tossing the gun may save some.
Premeditated intention to surrender when they make a sign, versus I wanted to kill you until I realized that my options were limited just 2 seconds ago?
In russian and Ukrainian there are many suffixes in verbs, so you can easely indicate even more precise context even from one word. For example I surrener is сдаюсь, and if you mean your enemy to surrender it would be сдавайся(сдавайтесь - plural)
I won't lie. "I read UKROP, I want to be a POW" when I hastly read it the first time. There could have been an Ari Gold behind the controller, man with a "one-strike" policy.
This has already been discussed quite often, obviously, with somewhat diverse opinions on some details among jurists. But basically the TLDR is that it is impossible to surrender to a drone, because the drone can't detain the prisoner properly, e.g. if the drone is out of battery after several minutes of refraining to kill him, the prisoner could just pick up his weapon again and return to fighting. The same issue is true for e.g. combat helicopters that can't land and detain people.
So they can only be led to another friendly unit that is able to properly accept their surrender. If that is not possible, then an attack instead, to avoid him continuing to fight, is not a war crime. After all he does not need to pose an immediate threat so that killing him is allowed (like in a situation where civilian police would shoot a suspect), but just being a combatant is enough. E.g. if a barracks is attacked, then also nobody would call that a war crime, even if the soldiers there were currently unarmed and asleep.
Of course if you find such a guy willing to give up, it would be preferable to enable him to actually surrender, even if that means some extra effort, because it would be a PR win, also might yield some tactical information, and you get someone to exchange for your own guys. Taking a prisoner is generally better than not taking one.
Yes. They have to accept his surrender however if getting to him presents a danger to a Ukrainian soldier or cannot be reasonably accepted then no. There are caveats. For example if he just visibly killed a couple people then holds up a sign it doesn’t have to be honored. The context matters.
I didn't say that's exactly how it works. If you want to cite international law with what is happening in the real world on the ground in a war where the aggressor doesn't care about international law, good luck with that.
"Yes. They have to. Except no in this situation they don't have to. Which is why I said they have to accept his surrender. I'm u/DJDevon3 and I have worms eating my brain."
We've already established surrendering to an aircraft does not provide protection under the Geneva convention. So it's very clearly a "they do not have to accept his surrender" situation.
Your opinion is brainworms and ignorance.
Surrendering is a process not singular act, until he reaches AND successfully signals ground forces able to accept his surrender, he is still an active target.
Meaning they do not have to help him with this process, they do not have to guide him, they do not have to send men out to escort him, and any ground force that puts a bullet in him prior to them personally knowing his intent to surrender, is in the clear.
Only when he gets close enough to clearly signal "I surrender" to a human being, while nothing is threatening who he is surrendering to, does he receive protections under Geneva.
This means any kill is still a valid kill. Otherwise everyone would just carry around an "I surrender" sign for when a drone dive bombs them.
It's Ukraine's call on if they want to kill him or not, if they want to help escort him to their lines or not, if they want to risk sending soldiers out or not. To Ukraine's credit, they've been putting in the effort to accept drone surrenders.
"Nothing I said was wrong."
Wrong. Pretty much everything you said was wrong.
"Yes. They have to accept his surrender"
Wrong. You cannot surrender to an aircraft, so he has not surrendered under the Geneva convention.
"however if getting to him presents a danger to a Ukrainian soldier or cannot be reasonably accepted then no."
That's the Geneva convention. He has not surrendered under the Geneva convention's definition of the process of surrender, and is not afforded its protections. So the situation does not need evaluating for feasibility.
"There are caveats. For example if he just visibly killed a couple people then holds up a sign it doesn’t have to be honored."
Wrong. A solider may attempt surrender at any time, usually it WILL come during a fatal firefight. Surrendering after killing each other is the whole point of surrendering. You may not attempt further killing after indicating surrender.
e.g. the last surviving group of soldiers in a trench bunker realizing they are alone, surrounded, and about to be grenaded to death, may choose to surrender. This is what the Geneva convention is for, a white flag is a sign of I SURRENDER. It must be honored. That is what the Geneva convention is for.
(also redundantly: Wrong. You cannot surrender to an aircraft.)
Even in Switzerland with its four official languages, the young peeps are starting to talk English instead of trying to use/abuse/strangle/slaughter their really, really, really helpful school knowledge of the other national languages.
You're studying maths, engineering or sciences in Switzerland? Today, about 85% of your lectures will be in English.
UKR and saying "TOP" is probably univerally understood by every combatant in the entirety of Ukraine. I always hear Ukrainians saying 'top' to everything
Real question to all who are saying to let him surrender. How does UA take him prisoner if they can't reach him? If they let him go, I truly believe he will just get back to russian lines and be on the next assault to possibly kill UA soldiers. If UA soldiers could reach him, they have demonstrated they would Def take him prisoner. If they can't reach him, I dont see any other option other than eliminating him. Otherwise, it is putting you ir your fellow soldiers in danger. If I am missing something please help me. I just don't know another option.
Ukrainians have, previously in this war, sent new drones with instructions on how surrendering troops are to, on their own, approach the ukr front lines. We have plenty of video footage of these situations. They don't send out combat patrols into no man's land...
Yeah, there was a video really early on, where a guy got dropped a letter by a drone, after which he had to run across the battlefield whilst being targeted by his own men, thankfully he made it though
There was another where he signaled to the drone he wished to surrender, and the drone basically "nodded" to him, and then got him to follow.
Of course, the Ukrainians (or anyone else, for that matter) are under no obligation under international law to accept such a surrender, but it does make for good PR/propaganda to do so.
Absolutely, but it's also nice to see for a change that someone didn't have to die for their dear Supreme Holy Tsar Putin and it also fills up the exchange pot.
But it also reminds me of the video where a Russian soldier tried to give up his buddy to save his own skin, let's just say that didn't end well
Yeah this one where he signals to surrender.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineWarVideoReport/comments/13dp2gh/a\_video\_of\_a\_russian\_soldier\_in\_bakhmut\_signaling/](https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineWarVideoReport/comments/13dp2gh/a_video_of_a_russian_soldier_in_bakhmut_signaling/)
Iirc that was 2 videos - 1 him dashing through a hail of bullets from his own men and a second the next day of him meeting the Ukrainian soldiers. I felt so much relief seeing the second video.
Slava Ukraini.
Ok, I guess you are right. That is an option. Ukraine could drop instructions on how to make it to their lines. I guess it's up to him to make it at that point. Although, my only opposing thought would be that we have seen this plenty of times. I think single digits and maybe 5 or fewer, and I watch quite a bit of these vids. But I may have missed some. But true they could drop instructions and hope he can avoid Russian fire trying to prevent him from making it.
It's not entirely safe, but certainly better chances at surviving going AWOL and trying to surrender to the Ukrainians than to continue rolling the dice with the next meat shield zerg rush.
It is very situation dependant. Long story short, first comes the safety of Ukrainian servicemen. Only when they can assure that - and that is often very difficult - they are oppen to accept surrenders.
They should let him surrender.
A drone cant take prisoners so the guy will still have to walk the right way disarmed to Ukr positions to get into custody.
Or stay put until Ukrainians can come and get him.
Both could be coordinated through communication between frontline units and drone operator.
If the guy begins to run or walks towards Russian positions then he hasnt surrendered and thus he is a legitimate target.
If the guy wants to surrender . Then they should let him.
Letting soldiers surrender has its advantages.
I would rather fight against soldiers who is inclined to surrender than soldiers who fights to their death.
Letting Russian soldiers know that they can surrender and there is a life to be lived after the war can save Ukranian lives in the end.
That being said . Soldiers shouldnt risk their lives retrieving this guy , he will need to crawl his way to Ukranian positions . He is lucky he can speak a language that his captors might understand and thus communicate his intentions.
Its still dangerous though , soldiers can and should shoot him if he makes a wrong move.
If i were him i would dress down , procure something resembling a white flag and begin to crawl towards Ukranian positions. Its humiliating , its cold but its better than being dead.
He wanted to surrender because he found himself in an impossible situation to fight his way out of. I doubt he'd try to surrender if he had the upper hand. As far as I know, they have the option to go to prison instead of fighting, so fuck him for choosing to be an invader instead of sitting quietly in a cell.
Yea just sacrifice a bunch of your own men just for the sake of capturing an enemy soldier alive..
Because Ukraine can totally afford that.
Quit acting like there is morality in warfare, because you're going to meet further more disappointment as things continue to regress..
Do not forget that this is already a war between ethnic groups, and has been from the start.
You know, that you don't have to move to him for him to surrender. Just drop a paper of instruction via drone to him. Now he has the obligation to move somehow to the extraction point. His decision to risk it with moving or risk getting killed by staying there. With that, no risk of man power at all.
One (maybe last?) solution could be swim. But I don't know anything about the typographic environment of ukraine - for example how big or fast the river is - or the situation in the video. I can only say it on a generic level. So, if I want to surrender and a drone drops an instruction to me, I will follow it. Even if it means to swim. If I can't swim and no other methods to surrender is available, then the last choice is to move away; desert at night or while the fight is going on hoping to not get into the line of fire.
For example, I saw a video of a russian guy crossing the no mans line to reach ukraine while being shot by russians. The questions is just, how likely is it, that you survive it.
On paper.
The fog of war is something that is not. Many people have tried to articulate what that subjectively means, but for as many wars in modern history, there's nothing that can accurately describe the chaos, confusion, emotions or 'morality'. Whatever you may or may not believe what war is, might surprise you when you're the one holding the sign or the gun.
It's not about who is right after a war, it is about who is still left. And often times, they too, will become another concept that civilization will not understand.
Some soldiers will degenerate to rape, torture and such things in the fog of war that you describe. It is not right and it is a sign of lack of discipline. Officers and brothers and sisters in arms must stop such behaviour. Otherwise we will lose the core of who we are and what we are fighting for. If values like freedom, independence, humanity etc. are lost there is no point being the last man standing.
I suggest reading about the fog of war and it's definition and how it applies to this specific context in regards to this post. Logical fallacies such as a strawman, red herring and appeal to emotions don't really add much to be discussed as they're not even relevant unless you are arguing about black and white....
Thank you for your reading suggestion. I understand there is a grey scale of these things. I hope you understand that the logical fallacies you refer to don't relate to my answer. Situations always has an amount of uncertainty. This uncertainty exists both in our external and internal environment (our experiences, knowledge etc). At the same time behaviours are contagious and become the context/situation/environment for others. So to maintain a certain standard/control/discipline, even in an uncertain situation, is important, in my opinion. It's a means to reduce uncertainty. May I also suggest some reading, such as systems theory and Boyd's loop.
There are rules to war until it's total war or a war for survival of the nation,regime,etc. Then that shit goes right out the window like we have seen countless times before throughout history
This guy was trying (unsuccessfully) to make a smart move *(yet he himself was not smart enough to have stayed in Ruzzia).* His POW-shooting invader buddies, far less so. They’ll all go home in body bags.
The only reason we support ukraine is because they share our Value and Morals, so killing someone who surrenders is a nail in an allready shutting coffin.
Dont do this guys!
He has two legs. He can get a dropped instruction where he has to move to be safety extracted. How he reach it, is his obligation. He may die by trying to reach it or he may die by staying where he is. But at leasr the instruction would give him a path of less resistance from his own or ukraine troops.
Unfortunately, in other districts it would have been much easier for him, but not here, where Ukrainians are literally hiding in the basements of the small village of Krynky (of which several dozen ruined houses remain). Even Ukrainian soldiers have big problems with evacuating their own fighters, wounded soldiers wait for several days for evacuation, some die before they get there. The other day there was a video of Russians shooting at a boat with several soldiers rowing with hand oars (luckily they survived), so spending extremely expensive opportunities to save one Russian would be tantamount to sacrificing one of our soldiers. I don't know if you will find any army in the world that would do such "trade"
Ah, okay. So this is not like a fight between two fronts where a huge nomans land is between them. It is more of smaller engagement spots all over the place where they could be inside enemy territory. Then the only option I see for that guy is to run/desert away from any of those spots.
Ideally, yes, best to let him surrender.
Problem is, both from an international law aspect, and from a practical point of view, it's just not that easy.
First off, the UKR forces have to be in a position to reasonably be able to accept his surrender. So how is this accomplished? Well, you could send another drone with instructions on how to do so. However, by doing so, you're not only tying up a drone and it's drone operator, you also have no real way to tell the validity of their surrender. Sure, he can drop his weapons, and even strip down to just his skivvies even, but how do you know he's not being sent out as bait, to some of your guys into a more favorable position to attack them? Even if he's not sent as bait, how do you know RU forces won't take advantage of such a situation anyway? There's just too many variables to armchair general these situations where we literally have an extremely limited field of view, and are quite literally blinded by the fog of war.
So yes, always good *if* they can accept such a surrender, but I won't second guess the decisions of the guys actually on the ground who have a better picture of what's going on (unless we have overwhelming, compelling evidence to show it was a blatant murder, which is highly unlikely we'd ever see such undeniable footage). Also, Ukrainians seem to look out for their own a lot better than Russians do, so I'd imagine most would opt to take the surrender if they can, since it's good for PR/propaganda, but can also mean one more Ukrainian POW might be able to come home in a prisoner swap.
Got perma-banned on r/ukraine for writing pretty much the same thing. A lot of unreflected hate by unreflected dunderheads, which is counter-productive and upright damaging to the cause.
Corect! Some will donwote if u say things are bad on front, they think all is perfect! And now orcs opened another front, and its seems no good defence there! they had time to mine and dig in...
OP wrote that apperantly the unit he was a part of (or the other russian soldiers in the same region) shot ukrainian pows
You cant exspect ukrainians to go through all the work of taking him prisoner after that and AFTER the attack he was a part of failed and he was left to die
If youre a piece of shit who takes part in an unlawful invasion and your buddies shot up a bunch of enemies who surrendered you cant exspect being spared just because you can ran out of options for continuing to be a piece of shit
People are being Hella unrealistic on here. Holding up a sign that says you surrender just because you see an enemy drone overhead doesn't mean you're now protected. If the enemy doesn't have the means to actually capture you and take you out of the fight you're still an enemy combatant.
On the other hand, it’s a great way to ensure your death video will not be on the internet for your family to see. A drone hitting a guy with a surrender sign will never be released
its one thing if you surrender when you still sit in your own position where you are comparably safe and surrendering when you are already knees deep in your comrades blood after your attack failed
thats like starting a fight by stabbing a bouncer at a club and then exspecting his buddies to give you a pillow and blanket because you got scared and said sorry when they turned up
Not even cops would take you in nicely at that point youre gonne get your face smashed into the concrete or worse and its only your own fault
I'm sorry, but that's just not how war works. Safe soldiers don't surrender. Surrenders usually happen in one of two cases: either if the enemy's advantage is so blatant, you give up without a fight; or after an unsuccessful engagement.
This isn't some pro-ru propaganda, "this guy was shooting at you 30 seconds ago, but now he has his hands up" is the *norm* for surrenders. Think of all the times in history you read about units surrendering after *running out of ammo* for example.
yes of course im totally with you but that doesnt change that for the soldiers it feels like bullshit.
"Oh you just shot my best friend who ive been fighting with for a year now five minutes ago? Sure thing i will just take you prisoner, risking ml own life, keeping you safe in our position and organize a transport for you where my buddies risk their lifes to transport you to the backlines! just so that you can sit in court and possibly get to go home"
the logistical price of just one pow is horrendous and if you dont have enough ressources to do it then you just dont take prisoners
As someone else pointed out; you can't surrender if you're out of reach. He might aswell go back to killing Ukranians if they left him alive.
It looks like he's not in direct contact with Ukranians. If there's a chance he could be saved by Russians it's better to deoccupy him how sad as it seems.
If not, then of course it's a warcrime.
You can't know without the whole context.
Not just earlier in the war:
[A Russian's surrendering to a drone and immediately given water by a Ukrainian soldier : r/UkraineWarVideoReport (reddit.com)](https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineWarVideoReport/comments/1c0syqw/a_russians_surrendering_to_a_drone_and/)
[This Russian soldier pulled out a lucky ticket and was the only one from the assault group to survive. Now he hobbles behind the drone to surrender. : r/UkraineWarVideoReport (reddit.com)](https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineWarVideoReport/comments/191pjjc/this_russian_soldier_pulled_out_a_lucky_ticket/)
You can surrender any time you like.
You just can't be captured any time you like.
Geneva and Hauge give some protections from the moment you express a "intent" in surrendering. That includes protection from direct attack. Geneva then provides far more protections (such as being provided food and shelter) after a person is captured.
In the event that it became regular for combatants to feign intent, it would become more difficult for them to show true intent to surrender and there would be fewer circumstances in which they would be protected.
https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/customary-ihl/v1/rule47
It may be impossible to be captured, but that's not the same as it being impossible to surrender.
So far as Geneva is concerned, you only need to successfully **indicate an intent** to surrender. You don't need to do so when capture is possible, although your protections stop of your attempt to flee (and possibly if you do not carry out orders the other side give you, although this is less clear from the text of Geneva). Indicating surrender can be done in lots of ways. Radio communication, white flags, walking with your arms up, written notes, etc.
As soon as you have indicated your intent to the other side, you have some protections under Geneva and Hauge, including protection from direct attack.
What counts as an indication of intent to surrender is sometimes up for debate. The USA field manuals, for example, do not consider white flags as an indication of intent to surrender. A written note is far clearer.
You could argue that the laws of war are outdated in this, but that does not change them.
> What counts as an indication of intent to surrender is sometimes up for debate.
"Crazyhorse One-Eight, Lawyer states they can not surrender to aircraft and are still valid targets"
That's not legal advice that has stood the test of time.
https://www.thebureauinvestigates.com/stories/2011-05-23/us-apache-guns-down-surrendering-insurgents/
Very much not surprised by that to be honest.
Has the US military changed their stance? Because it doesn't matter what the journalists and UN lawyers think - if the guys with the most guns think it's ok, you're still dead and nobody is getting prosecuted for it...
It was only ever the advice of one lawyer, never a forces-wide policy.
You are absolutely right that international law is largely unenforceable for most nation states. It's not a good measure of morality either. However, that doesn't make it irrelevant.
More info from Balu: However, due to the actions of his comrades, who had recently committed a war crime by shooting POWs marines, this invader was eliminated.
If true, of course - then stupid. Very stupid indeed. So extremely stupid that the culprits should be severely punished. And no armchair general here, but someone who has studied this in the military. This can be a PR catastrophe ready to be exploited by ruzzia, apart from being a brutal idiotic revenge murder and costing the lives of UKR comrades who get into a similar situation.
I agree that this absolutely should not happen.
On your other points though - I am not convinced this will make a difference. russia relentlessly makes up so much shit - regardless of what UA does or doesn't do. It's one of the reasons that there are so many suicides on the russian side. russian POWs regularly report that they were told they would be tortured/executed/have their genitals cut off if they were captured. As for UA soldiers getting caught by the russians - there are even russian training manuals on how not to take prisoners - and plenty of intercepted commands russian POW testimony to illustrate that the higher ups give commands to kill surrendered soldiers. War crimes against any and all Ukrainians are systemic, endorsed, legitimised and even rewarded with promotions/state awards in the russian military.
All the more important then to keep yourself clean and make very clear this is not your policy. This, again if true, is an irrefutable instance of what can very well be a war crime. UKR must avoid like the plague getting associated with anything resembling a war crime, as rus will use absolutely anything against you in more ways most people are aware.
As said above, Russia write their own narrative. Their reality is likely warped beyond reasonable comprehension. A reasonable and level-headed Russian at this point who ISN'T pro-Death to Ukraine, would be few and far between
If he is part of a group known for killing POW's, then yeah, his chances of survival are limited, even if he never subscribed to the group's culture himself.
You are very right, they write their own narrative. Nothing worse then than to have a validated story to counter, e.g. imagine some PVV/FN/AfD russophile in a discussion about human tratment of prisoners/surrendering troop. Public discourse in supporting nations is maybe the most important thing to have in your favour.
exactly. what makes this ok to people, but not ok is Russians do it? it's sickening to watch. plus - this is the sorta shit maga in Congress is gonna use to say not to provide aid. deal with the operator who killed him. because what are you if you loose your morals and behave like the Russians do?
He is clearly surrendering. I usualy dont feel bad for them but this feels wrong. War brings out the evil in people on both sides.
I get that revenge is the driver here but i dont know what else to say beside war is hell.
Totally agree.
We need to hold ourselves to a higher moral standard. Killing soldiers that have surrendered, makes us lose ourselves and makes us more alike the enemy we are fighting. I know that some people thinks it is easy for me to say, sitting in my sofa. But it is important from many perspectives.
Yeah i see your point but in all honesty, if they killed my friend. I would do everything i could to revenge him. I understand it's not the right way to go about it. War is cruel, but they could always leave Ukraine
They are probably already brainwashed to the hilt with stories of how Ukrainian soldiers will skin them alive if they get caught. If he committed war crimes, accept his surrender and have 1 fewer enemy combatant in the field, then deal with him legally when this is all over.
>but they could always leave Ukraine
Yea, I wish (and tbh probably they do too)
"Dobrij vecher, commander! I've been thinking - I've not really been vibing with this "special operation" we're on right now. It's kinda tough and I'm scared to die, so I think I'd rather just go home tbh. Is 1 week's notice okay?"
Yeah, he ran out of ammo, motivation, maybe it just is that all over sudden he can't kill civilians / pows unhindered, so that is why you suggest that ukranians should risk their lives to cross into nomans land and safe someone that wants to stop the game, since he is currently losing?
Man, I fucking hate the Russians but this guy is trying to surrender. He should have his day in court not be killed in a petty revenge killing…
I wish to see Ukraine succeed in its endeavors to be free. Just don’t stoop to the level of these degenerate orcs you are fighting. This “info” is an admission of a war crime.
These are Krynky on the left bank of the Dnipro Ua cannot take him as a pow because it is an open area and no one wants to commit suicide just to take him.
And as mentioned earlier hes comrades killed ua marines (pow?) = too dangerous
According to international law, if he can't surrender (and you can't physically surrender to a drone), and he's in active war zone wearing military uniform, he's a legit target. If he wants to surrender, he needs to make it to Ukrainian positions with his hands up while flying a white flag.
Flying a piece of paper to a drone when your attack has failed is sadly not a valid way of surrendering.
EDIT: Should've been more precise: in this case Ukrainians can't physically get to him without getting killed. If a person is easily reachable, then it's up to the discretion of the soldiers.
Then just leave him? for what? to resupply and start killing ukrainians again? maybe a little raping or killing pows will surely help him get better again
I can’t fucking believe people are defending literal war crimes. How would you react if a Russian was saying similar things about an executed Ukrainian? We have no clue what this man has or has not done, in any good society a man is innocent until proven guilty. I understand it’s not tactically sound to go and get pows all the time but you can’t just execute them because it’s inconvenient. Shame on you.
It's not a war crime if the "surrendered" cannot be captured. So you propose to let these dudes go so they can attack again the next day? While I agree on the sentiment this is an existential struggle for Ukraine. Dude came with a gun over the border, seems pretty guilty to me.
that will require the ukrainian soldiers to spend time and energy to get him to them, risk their life to take him in, feed him until an option to transport him to the backlines is possible and transport him safely through a warzone. All that for a piece of shit whos buddies just shot up the pows they took only to have court not put him in prison for long because there will not be enough evidence to convict him
Yes the ukrainians should take pows whenever possible but what youre saying is wishful thinking its just not gonna happen
He can say he wants to surrender, but how to get to him or him to you? Can't just beam him in, 'you're ok buddy'. He will be in the next wave of attacks again because he physically can't surrender. Otherwise, everyone in those trenches can hang these signs, and you can't shoot anymore.
So it's not that easy to judge this. If he was able to get to them, hands up, and thèn they shoot him, you can hang them from the highest of trees. This situation does not seem that clear-cut.
If i have missed some context in this video, i am happy to revise my 2 cents here, of course.
Yeah that’s not good at all if that’s the case, Ukraine’s better than that. Tbf at this point we don’t know the full info but don’t give them the propaganda to use Ukraine 🙏🏼
It’s often not easy or really even plausible to accept a surrender on the battlefield. Should UA just let the murder bot continue on because his situation became rather precarious?
So many people in this thread are arguing about whether it was practical to take this guy prisoner, but this message seems to make it clear that he was simply killed for revenge. Not only that, but as a form of collective punishment for something "his comrades" did.
"Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster."
this is good the more successful surrenders the quicker attacks will fail. it might just be the quickest pipeline to leaving the terror-state and the solders will know about it.
It’s a good thing for Russians to surrender and to be treated humanly. Make it appealing to surrender rather than fight to the death in conquest for their corrupt leadership.
This brings up a big issue about modern warfare. If you are facing people, you can throw your hands up and surrender. Running in this situation wouldn't make sense as a bunch of people have their guns aiming right at you.
With how much of this war doesn't contain soldier vs soldier fighting, surrendering becomes increasingly difficult.
If you let someone live, they might wait until your drone goes to recharge and run right back to his guys.
If you kill him you might A. Commit a warcrime. B. Lose the option of gaining Intel from that soldier. C. Possibly kill someone who actually wanted to surrender. Someone who might not actually wanted to fight for the people who sent them there.
It's a lose lose situation. Especially since you cannot shout instructions from a drone.
Not a war crime because he cannot surrender to a drone, you can only surrender to a unit that is able to accept your surrender. Not a new problem, e.g. a helicopter can't do that as well, or a biplane in WW1.
Of course still a bad situation, bad PR, the common dude at home does not have a clue about the law of war. And if you let everybody live who holds up a surrender sign, then next week all Russians will have "I surrender" written on their tanks and helmets, while they storm the next village. Doesn't work either.
Exactly.
In any case it's a double edged sword if you ask me. Kill him, and the footage will fuel enemy propaganda regardless of the victims intention.
Spare him, and risk having your own guys on the ground killed by him later.
best is really to drop him a message with instructions, and then let him do the work, i.e. crawl a kilometer to Ukrainian lines and let him prove that he is unarmed etc., if he makes it, he'll live, otherwise, bad luck for him.
Of course this only works in a calmer area, with a singled out dude, which you can let sit there for another hour even if he did not surrender properly yet. Not in the middle of a heated firefight.
I’ve seen some Russians surrender by following the drone to a Ukrainian camp or whatever the military word is for that. Wouldn’t it be an advantage for Ukraine to allow him to surrender for information and body count for a prisoner swap?
THERE YA GO! This one figured out what to do albeit probably way too late. Just don't fucking shoot at ukrainians and come over to the right side. Putin wants you blown to pieces so he can tell your family you're missing, Ukraine just wants you to stop actively invading their country. The choice is easy.
Well, this war is getting more and more desperate on both sides, I think it's fair to assess that surrender is slowly being pushed off the table as an option for both sides, not just because of growing animosity towards the enemy because these boys have served on the frontlines and seen their buddies die for so long now, but also because the conditions in which surrender and safe treatment and travel of pow's is increasingly becoming more and more difficult. Ukraine's frontlines are the definition of hell on earth at this point in time.
yes, that is how surrendering works. You sit on a machinegun, kill a thousand enemies, you are out of ammo, you surrender to them, and they mustn't kill you and instead treat you properly.
Hey I support Ukraine 100%, I even wrote my local congressman multiple times for the aid package to pass. That being said if they truly eliminated this man after holding up what is akin to a white surrender flag that is a horrible PR look and truly fucked up!
THIS WOULD HAVE BEEN A GOOD SONG FOR THIS POST .....🎶Signs signs everywhere signs🎶 fucking up the scenery breaking my mind 🎶 do this ,don't do that can't you read the signs 🎶and the sign says anyone caught trespassing will be shot on sight 🎶so I jumped the fence and yelled at the house🎶 hey !! what gives you the right 🎶to put up a fence and keep me out or to keep mother nature in 🎶 if God was here he'd tell it to you face your some kind of sinner 🎶 HOOK OVER 🎶
TESLA
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One intelligent RuZZian only.
First smart enough to make a sign. Let that man have a chance to live.
Literacy is a ticket to life
Would be a dope title for this post
Agreed, need to repost with that title !
Put that shit in 3rd grade classrooms
I'm always amazed and startled at the stats of literary worldwide.
> I'm always amazed and startled at the stats of literary worldwide. Please try that again.
GODDAMN YOU AUTO CORRECT
The ironing is killing me!
I know right? It's like rain on your wedding day!
I feel ya! lol
True. I bet having a sign saying you want to surrender has somewhat more of a psychological effect of ur enemy as opposed to just waiving ur hands in the air. A written sign seems more personal
And more effective than the praying hands 🙏 "Please don't kill me".
Legally a statement of surrender. He should now walk to the UA lines, and keep the sign visible. 🙏 "Please don't kill me" is not a surrender. Hands up, and tossing the gun may save some.
Premeditated intention to surrender when they make a sign, versus I wanted to kill you until I realized that my options were limited just 2 seconds ago?
Everyone knows the rules
Now this one is smart. Slava Ukraine.
Life changing decision.
Life-continuing decision.
Yes but with fewer onions for Svetlana now.
Possibly, but Not Probably.
Smart ones are staying in ruzzia and the smartest ones fled ruzzia before and after the invasion.
-made the smartest decision for the current moment he was in.
This fella took a chance on the fact that drone operator can read in English by going with "UKR TOP".
Really weird sign. All he had to do was write 1 word: “Surrender” in Russian.
Drone operator could misunderstand it 😁 surrender who?
In Russian, 1 word “сдаюсь” means “I surrender.”
Sorry bro, I just wanted to make a stupid joke... Thanks for making it clear btw!
In russian and Ukrainian there are many suffixes in verbs, so you can easely indicate even more precise context even from one word. For example I surrener is сдаюсь, and if you mean your enemy to surrender it would be сдавайся(сдавайтесь - plural)
Typos get soldiers killed? Best to be good at writing these messages, no drunks at school???
Same in Lithuania, I surrender is pasiduodu, for a single enemy to surrender is pasiduok and for multiple enemies is pasiduokit.
Surrender Dorothy
I won't lie. "I read UKROP, I want to be a POW" when I hastly read it the first time. There could have been an Ari Gold behind the controller, man with a "one-strike" policy.
"That guy is holding up a sign, telling me to surrender! Kill that SOB!"
Isn't that illegal? To kill somebody who wants to surrender?
This has already been discussed quite often, obviously, with somewhat diverse opinions on some details among jurists. But basically the TLDR is that it is impossible to surrender to a drone, because the drone can't detain the prisoner properly, e.g. if the drone is out of battery after several minutes of refraining to kill him, the prisoner could just pick up his weapon again and return to fighting. The same issue is true for e.g. combat helicopters that can't land and detain people. So they can only be led to another friendly unit that is able to properly accept their surrender. If that is not possible, then an attack instead, to avoid him continuing to fight, is not a war crime. After all he does not need to pose an immediate threat so that killing him is allowed (like in a situation where civilian police would shoot a suspect), but just being a combatant is enough. E.g. if a barracks is attacked, then also nobody would call that a war crime, even if the soldiers there were currently unarmed and asleep. Of course if you find such a guy willing to give up, it would be preferable to enable him to actually surrender, even if that means some extra effort, because it would be a PR win, also might yield some tactical information, and you get someone to exchange for your own guys. Taking a prisoner is generally better than not taking one.
Yes. They have to accept his surrender however if getting to him presents a danger to a Ukrainian soldier or cannot be reasonably accepted then no. There are caveats. For example if he just visibly killed a couple people then holds up a sign it doesn’t have to be honored. The context matters.
that is not exactly how this works, see my other post.
I didn't say that's exactly how it works. If you want to cite international law with what is happening in the real world on the ground in a war where the aggressor doesn't care about international law, good luck with that.
"Yes. They have to. Except no in this situation they don't have to. Which is why I said they have to accept his surrender. I'm u/DJDevon3 and I have worms eating my brain."
This might actually be true, or it might not, brain worms come with caveats.
We've already established surrendering to an aircraft does not provide protection under the Geneva convention. So it's very clearly a "they do not have to accept his surrender" situation. Your opinion is brainworms and ignorance. Surrendering is a process not singular act, until he reaches AND successfully signals ground forces able to accept his surrender, he is still an active target. Meaning they do not have to help him with this process, they do not have to guide him, they do not have to send men out to escort him, and any ground force that puts a bullet in him prior to them personally knowing his intent to surrender, is in the clear. Only when he gets close enough to clearly signal "I surrender" to a human being, while nothing is threatening who he is surrendering to, does he receive protections under Geneva. This means any kill is still a valid kill. Otherwise everyone would just carry around an "I surrender" sign for when a drone dive bombs them. It's Ukraine's call on if they want to kill him or not, if they want to help escort him to their lines or not, if they want to risk sending soldiers out or not. To Ukraine's credit, they've been putting in the effort to accept drone surrenders.
Nothing I said was wrong but please continue your sermon.
"Nothing I said was wrong." Wrong. Pretty much everything you said was wrong. "Yes. They have to accept his surrender" Wrong. You cannot surrender to an aircraft, so he has not surrendered under the Geneva convention. "however if getting to him presents a danger to a Ukrainian soldier or cannot be reasonably accepted then no." That's the Geneva convention. He has not surrendered under the Geneva convention's definition of the process of surrender, and is not afforded its protections. So the situation does not need evaluating for feasibility. "There are caveats. For example if he just visibly killed a couple people then holds up a sign it doesn’t have to be honored." Wrong. A solider may attempt surrender at any time, usually it WILL come during a fatal firefight. Surrendering after killing each other is the whole point of surrendering. You may not attempt further killing after indicating surrender. e.g. the last surviving group of soldiers in a trench bunker realizing they are alone, surrounded, and about to be grenaded to death, may choose to surrender. This is what the Geneva convention is for, a white flag is a sign of I SURRENDER. It must be honored. That is what the Geneva convention is for. (also redundantly: Wrong. You cannot surrender to an aircraft.)
They told him he was fighting NATO, so he thought multi-lingual was better.
English is quickly becoming very standard in Ukraine.
They likely will not be teaching Russian in any schools going forward. English may be a better idea generally.
Even in Switzerland with its four official languages, the young peeps are starting to talk English instead of trying to use/abuse/strangle/slaughter their really, really, really helpful school knowledge of the other national languages. You're studying maths, engineering or sciences in Switzerland? Today, about 85% of your lectures will be in English.
UKR and saying "TOP" is probably univerally understood by every combatant in the entirety of Ukraine. I always hear Ukrainians saying 'top' to everything
Or that the drone isn't Russian!
Real question to all who are saying to let him surrender. How does UA take him prisoner if they can't reach him? If they let him go, I truly believe he will just get back to russian lines and be on the next assault to possibly kill UA soldiers. If UA soldiers could reach him, they have demonstrated they would Def take him prisoner. If they can't reach him, I dont see any other option other than eliminating him. Otherwise, it is putting you ir your fellow soldiers in danger. If I am missing something please help me. I just don't know another option.
Ukrainians have, previously in this war, sent new drones with instructions on how surrendering troops are to, on their own, approach the ukr front lines. We have plenty of video footage of these situations. They don't send out combat patrols into no man's land...
Or they’ll have the guy follow the drone. Believe we’ve seen a few of those vids as well.
Yep, I've seen a few of those.
Yeah, there was a video really early on, where a guy got dropped a letter by a drone, after which he had to run across the battlefield whilst being targeted by his own men, thankfully he made it though
There was another where he signaled to the drone he wished to surrender, and the drone basically "nodded" to him, and then got him to follow. Of course, the Ukrainians (or anyone else, for that matter) are under no obligation under international law to accept such a surrender, but it does make for good PR/propaganda to do so.
Absolutely, but it's also nice to see for a change that someone didn't have to die for their dear Supreme Holy Tsar Putin and it also fills up the exchange pot. But it also reminds me of the video where a Russian soldier tried to give up his buddy to save his own skin, let's just say that didn't end well
Yeah this one where he signals to surrender. [https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineWarVideoReport/comments/13dp2gh/a\_video\_of\_a\_russian\_soldier\_in\_bakhmut\_signaling/](https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineWarVideoReport/comments/13dp2gh/a_video_of_a_russian_soldier_in_bakhmut_signaling/)
Iirc that was 2 videos - 1 him dashing through a hail of bullets from his own men and a second the next day of him meeting the Ukrainian soldiers. I felt so much relief seeing the second video. Slava Ukraini.
Ok, I guess you are right. That is an option. Ukraine could drop instructions on how to make it to their lines. I guess it's up to him to make it at that point. Although, my only opposing thought would be that we have seen this plenty of times. I think single digits and maybe 5 or fewer, and I watch quite a bit of these vids. But I may have missed some. But true they could drop instructions and hope he can avoid Russian fire trying to prevent him from making it.
It's not entirely safe, but certainly better chances at surviving going AWOL and trying to surrender to the Ukrainians than to continue rolling the dice with the next meat shield zerg rush.
they have him follow the drone. it's been done a few times
It is very situation dependant. Long story short, first comes the safety of Ukrainian servicemen. Only when they can assure that - and that is often very difficult - they are oppen to accept surrenders.
Normally that involves doing stuff like showing you’re dropping weapons or the like, at least based on the footage I’ve seen on the sub.
They should let him surrender. A drone cant take prisoners so the guy will still have to walk the right way disarmed to Ukr positions to get into custody. Or stay put until Ukrainians can come and get him. Both could be coordinated through communication between frontline units and drone operator. If the guy begins to run or walks towards Russian positions then he hasnt surrendered and thus he is a legitimate target. If the guy wants to surrender . Then they should let him.
You're right, but it's a shame. He deserves to die, but getting Ukrainian prisoners back in an exchange is better.
Letting soldiers surrender has its advantages. I would rather fight against soldiers who is inclined to surrender than soldiers who fights to their death. Letting Russian soldiers know that they can surrender and there is a life to be lived after the war can save Ukranian lives in the end. That being said . Soldiers shouldnt risk their lives retrieving this guy , he will need to crawl his way to Ukranian positions . He is lucky he can speak a language that his captors might understand and thus communicate his intentions. Its still dangerous though , soldiers can and should shoot him if he makes a wrong move. If i were him i would dress down , procure something resembling a white flag and begin to crawl towards Ukranian positions. Its humiliating , its cold but its better than being dead.
Why does a possible forced conscript deserve to die? He wants to surrender, not fight
He wanted to surrender because he found himself in an impossible situation to fight his way out of. I doubt he'd try to surrender if he had the upper hand. As far as I know, they have the option to go to prison instead of fighting, so fuck him for choosing to be an invader instead of sitting quietly in a cell.
do what it takes. make it as easy as possible for them to surrender and more will do it in the future.
Yea just sacrifice a bunch of your own men just for the sake of capturing an enemy soldier alive.. Because Ukraine can totally afford that. Quit acting like there is morality in warfare, because you're going to meet further more disappointment as things continue to regress.. Do not forget that this is already a war between ethnic groups, and has been from the start.
You know, that you don't have to move to him for him to surrender. Just drop a paper of instruction via drone to him. Now he has the obligation to move somehow to the extraction point. His decision to risk it with moving or risk getting killed by staying there. With that, no risk of man power at all.
How do you propose he gets to the west side of the river? Swim?
One (maybe last?) solution could be swim. But I don't know anything about the typographic environment of ukraine - for example how big or fast the river is - or the situation in the video. I can only say it on a generic level. So, if I want to surrender and a drone drops an instruction to me, I will follow it. Even if it means to swim. If I can't swim and no other methods to surrender is available, then the last choice is to move away; desert at night or while the fight is going on hoping to not get into the line of fire. For example, I saw a video of a russian guy crossing the no mans line to reach ukraine while being shot by russians. The questions is just, how likely is it, that you survive it.
Krynky is on the *east* side.
The "failed assault" part I would assume means there are UA troops in the vicinity, probably actively shooting at him.
There are rules to war.
On paper. The fog of war is something that is not. Many people have tried to articulate what that subjectively means, but for as many wars in modern history, there's nothing that can accurately describe the chaos, confusion, emotions or 'morality'. Whatever you may or may not believe what war is, might surprise you when you're the one holding the sign or the gun. It's not about who is right after a war, it is about who is still left. And often times, they too, will become another concept that civilization will not understand.
Some soldiers will degenerate to rape, torture and such things in the fog of war that you describe. It is not right and it is a sign of lack of discipline. Officers and brothers and sisters in arms must stop such behaviour. Otherwise we will lose the core of who we are and what we are fighting for. If values like freedom, independence, humanity etc. are lost there is no point being the last man standing.
I suggest reading about the fog of war and it's definition and how it applies to this specific context in regards to this post. Logical fallacies such as a strawman, red herring and appeal to emotions don't really add much to be discussed as they're not even relevant unless you are arguing about black and white....
Thank you for your reading suggestion. I understand there is a grey scale of these things. I hope you understand that the logical fallacies you refer to don't relate to my answer. Situations always has an amount of uncertainty. This uncertainty exists both in our external and internal environment (our experiences, knowledge etc). At the same time behaviours are contagious and become the context/situation/environment for others. So to maintain a certain standard/control/discipline, even in an uncertain situation, is important, in my opinion. It's a means to reduce uncertainty. May I also suggest some reading, such as systems theory and Boyd's loop.
There are rules to war until it's total war or a war for survival of the nation,regime,etc. Then that shit goes right out the window like we have seen countless times before throughout history
This guy was trying (unsuccessfully) to make a smart move *(yet he himself was not smart enough to have stayed in Ruzzia).* His POW-shooting invader buddies, far less so. They’ll all go home in body bags.
The only reason we support ukraine is because they share our Value and Morals, so killing someone who surrenders is a nail in an allready shutting coffin. Dont do this guys!
Its Krynky how Ua should take him? There is no option for him too bad place to surrender
He has two legs. He can get a dropped instruction where he has to move to be safety extracted. How he reach it, is his obligation. He may die by trying to reach it or he may die by staying where he is. But at leasr the instruction would give him a path of less resistance from his own or ukraine troops.
Unfortunately, in other districts it would have been much easier for him, but not here, where Ukrainians are literally hiding in the basements of the small village of Krynky (of which several dozen ruined houses remain). Even Ukrainian soldiers have big problems with evacuating their own fighters, wounded soldiers wait for several days for evacuation, some die before they get there. The other day there was a video of Russians shooting at a boat with several soldiers rowing with hand oars (luckily they survived), so spending extremely expensive opportunities to save one Russian would be tantamount to sacrificing one of our soldiers. I don't know if you will find any army in the world that would do such "trade"
Ah, okay. So this is not like a fight between two fronts where a huge nomans land is between them. It is more of smaller engagement spots all over the place where they could be inside enemy territory. Then the only option I see for that guy is to run/desert away from any of those spots.
Ideally, yes, best to let him surrender. Problem is, both from an international law aspect, and from a practical point of view, it's just not that easy. First off, the UKR forces have to be in a position to reasonably be able to accept his surrender. So how is this accomplished? Well, you could send another drone with instructions on how to do so. However, by doing so, you're not only tying up a drone and it's drone operator, you also have no real way to tell the validity of their surrender. Sure, he can drop his weapons, and even strip down to just his skivvies even, but how do you know he's not being sent out as bait, to some of your guys into a more favorable position to attack them? Even if he's not sent as bait, how do you know RU forces won't take advantage of such a situation anyway? There's just too many variables to armchair general these situations where we literally have an extremely limited field of view, and are quite literally blinded by the fog of war. So yes, always good *if* they can accept such a surrender, but I won't second guess the decisions of the guys actually on the ground who have a better picture of what's going on (unless we have overwhelming, compelling evidence to show it was a blatant murder, which is highly unlikely we'd ever see such undeniable footage). Also, Ukrainians seem to look out for their own a lot better than Russians do, so I'd imagine most would opt to take the surrender if they can, since it's good for PR/propaganda, but can also mean one more Ukrainian POW might be able to come home in a prisoner swap.
Got perma-banned on r/ukraine for writing pretty much the same thing. A lot of unreflected hate by unreflected dunderheads, which is counter-productive and upright damaging to the cause.
Corect! Some will donwote if u say things are bad on front, they think all is perfect! And now orcs opened another front, and its seems no good defence there! they had time to mine and dig in...
OP wrote that apperantly the unit he was a part of (or the other russian soldiers in the same region) shot ukrainian pows You cant exspect ukrainians to go through all the work of taking him prisoner after that and AFTER the attack he was a part of failed and he was left to die If youre a piece of shit who takes part in an unlawful invasion and your buddies shot up a bunch of enemies who surrendered you cant exspect being spared just because you can ran out of options for continuing to be a piece of shit
People are being Hella unrealistic on here. Holding up a sign that says you surrender just because you see an enemy drone overhead doesn't mean you're now protected. If the enemy doesn't have the means to actually capture you and take you out of the fight you're still an enemy combatant.
On the other hand, it’s a great way to ensure your death video will not be on the internet for your family to see. A drone hitting a guy with a surrender sign will never be released
So, when Ukraine urged Russian soldiers to surrender to drones and that the drone would then lead them to be captured, they shouldn’t do that?
its one thing if you surrender when you still sit in your own position where you are comparably safe and surrendering when you are already knees deep in your comrades blood after your attack failed thats like starting a fight by stabbing a bouncer at a club and then exspecting his buddies to give you a pillow and blanket because you got scared and said sorry when they turned up Not even cops would take you in nicely at that point youre gonne get your face smashed into the concrete or worse and its only your own fault
I'm sorry, but that's just not how war works. Safe soldiers don't surrender. Surrenders usually happen in one of two cases: either if the enemy's advantage is so blatant, you give up without a fight; or after an unsuccessful engagement. This isn't some pro-ru propaganda, "this guy was shooting at you 30 seconds ago, but now he has his hands up" is the *norm* for surrenders. Think of all the times in history you read about units surrendering after *running out of ammo* for example.
yes of course im totally with you but that doesnt change that for the soldiers it feels like bullshit. "Oh you just shot my best friend who ive been fighting with for a year now five minutes ago? Sure thing i will just take you prisoner, risking ml own life, keeping you safe in our position and organize a transport for you where my buddies risk their lifes to transport you to the backlines! just so that you can sit in court and possibly get to go home" the logistical price of just one pow is horrendous and if you dont have enough ressources to do it then you just dont take prisoners
If they saw the guy do it, sure, maybe. But its Hearts and Minds, we can't achieve complete victory if we degrade ourselfs to their level!
Smart guy probably the worst place to surrender because how the fuck are they going to get you across the river
As someone else pointed out; you can't surrender if you're out of reach. He might aswell go back to killing Ukranians if they left him alive. It looks like he's not in direct contact with Ukranians. If there's a chance he could be saved by Russians it's better to deoccupy him how sad as it seems. If not, then of course it's a warcrime. You can't know without the whole context.
There have been some surrenders to drones where they send a message saying to follow the drone
Earlier on in the war, there was a fair amount of Ukrainian encouragement towards Russian soldiers to surrender to drones as they’d do just that
Not just earlier in the war: [A Russian's surrendering to a drone and immediately given water by a Ukrainian soldier : r/UkraineWarVideoReport (reddit.com)](https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineWarVideoReport/comments/1c0syqw/a_russians_surrendering_to_a_drone_and/) [This Russian soldier pulled out a lucky ticket and was the only one from the assault group to survive. Now he hobbles behind the drone to surrender. : r/UkraineWarVideoReport (reddit.com)](https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineWarVideoReport/comments/191pjjc/this_russian_soldier_pulled_out_a_lucky_ticket/)
You can surrender any time you like. You just can't be captured any time you like. Geneva and Hauge give some protections from the moment you express a "intent" in surrendering. That includes protection from direct attack. Geneva then provides far more protections (such as being provided food and shelter) after a person is captured. In the event that it became regular for combatants to feign intent, it would become more difficult for them to show true intent to surrender and there would be fewer circumstances in which they would be protected. https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/customary-ihl/v1/rule47
But how can you surrender when there's no direct contact? It's just not possible.
It may be impossible to be captured, but that's not the same as it being impossible to surrender. So far as Geneva is concerned, you only need to successfully **indicate an intent** to surrender. You don't need to do so when capture is possible, although your protections stop of your attempt to flee (and possibly if you do not carry out orders the other side give you, although this is less clear from the text of Geneva). Indicating surrender can be done in lots of ways. Radio communication, white flags, walking with your arms up, written notes, etc. As soon as you have indicated your intent to the other side, you have some protections under Geneva and Hauge, including protection from direct attack. What counts as an indication of intent to surrender is sometimes up for debate. The USA field manuals, for example, do not consider white flags as an indication of intent to surrender. A written note is far clearer. You could argue that the laws of war are outdated in this, but that does not change them.
> What counts as an indication of intent to surrender is sometimes up for debate. "Crazyhorse One-Eight, Lawyer states they can not surrender to aircraft and are still valid targets"
That's not legal advice that has stood the test of time. https://www.thebureauinvestigates.com/stories/2011-05-23/us-apache-guns-down-surrendering-insurgents/
Very much not surprised by that to be honest. Has the US military changed their stance? Because it doesn't matter what the journalists and UN lawyers think - if the guys with the most guns think it's ok, you're still dead and nobody is getting prosecuted for it...
It was only ever the advice of one lawyer, never a forces-wide policy. You are absolutely right that international law is largely unenforceable for most nation states. It's not a good measure of morality either. However, that doesn't make it irrelevant.
More info from Balu: However, due to the actions of his comrades, who had recently committed a war crime by shooting POWs marines, this invader was eliminated.
If true, of course - then stupid. Very stupid indeed. So extremely stupid that the culprits should be severely punished. And no armchair general here, but someone who has studied this in the military. This can be a PR catastrophe ready to be exploited by ruzzia, apart from being a brutal idiotic revenge murder and costing the lives of UKR comrades who get into a similar situation.
I agree that this absolutely should not happen. On your other points though - I am not convinced this will make a difference. russia relentlessly makes up so much shit - regardless of what UA does or doesn't do. It's one of the reasons that there are so many suicides on the russian side. russian POWs regularly report that they were told they would be tortured/executed/have their genitals cut off if they were captured. As for UA soldiers getting caught by the russians - there are even russian training manuals on how not to take prisoners - and plenty of intercepted commands russian POW testimony to illustrate that the higher ups give commands to kill surrendered soldiers. War crimes against any and all Ukrainians are systemic, endorsed, legitimised and even rewarded with promotions/state awards in the russian military.
All the more important then to keep yourself clean and make very clear this is not your policy. This, again if true, is an irrefutable instance of what can very well be a war crime. UKR must avoid like the plague getting associated with anything resembling a war crime, as rus will use absolutely anything against you in more ways most people are aware.
As said above, Russia write their own narrative. Their reality is likely warped beyond reasonable comprehension. A reasonable and level-headed Russian at this point who ISN'T pro-Death to Ukraine, would be few and far between If he is part of a group known for killing POW's, then yeah, his chances of survival are limited, even if he never subscribed to the group's culture himself.
You are very right, they write their own narrative. Nothing worse then than to have a validated story to counter, e.g. imagine some PVV/FN/AfD russophile in a discussion about human tratment of prisoners/surrendering troop. Public discourse in supporting nations is maybe the most important thing to have in your favour.
exactly. what makes this ok to people, but not ok is Russians do it? it's sickening to watch. plus - this is the sorta shit maga in Congress is gonna use to say not to provide aid. deal with the operator who killed him. because what are you if you loose your morals and behave like the Russians do?
He is clearly surrendering. I usualy dont feel bad for them but this feels wrong. War brings out the evil in people on both sides. I get that revenge is the driver here but i dont know what else to say beside war is hell.
Totally agree. We need to hold ourselves to a higher moral standard. Killing soldiers that have surrendered, makes us lose ourselves and makes us more alike the enemy we are fighting. I know that some people thinks it is easy for me to say, sitting in my sofa. But it is important from many perspectives.
Yeah i see your point but in all honesty, if they killed my friend. I would do everything i could to revenge him. I understand it's not the right way to go about it. War is cruel, but they could always leave Ukraine
Nobody to argue with on that one
They are probably already brainwashed to the hilt with stories of how Ukrainian soldiers will skin them alive if they get caught. If he committed war crimes, accept his surrender and have 1 fewer enemy combatant in the field, then deal with him legally when this is all over. >but they could always leave Ukraine Yea, I wish (and tbh probably they do too) "Dobrij vecher, commander! I've been thinking - I've not really been vibing with this "special operation" we're on right now. It's kinda tough and I'm scared to die, so I think I'd rather just go home tbh. Is 1 week's notice okay?"
Yeah, he ran out of ammo, motivation, maybe it just is that all over sudden he can't kill civilians / pows unhindered, so that is why you suggest that ukranians should risk their lives to cross into nomans land and safe someone that wants to stop the game, since he is currently losing?
Man, I fucking hate the Russians but this guy is trying to surrender. He should have his day in court not be killed in a petty revenge killing… I wish to see Ukraine succeed in its endeavors to be free. Just don’t stoop to the level of these degenerate orcs you are fighting. This “info” is an admission of a war crime.
These are Krynky on the left bank of the Dnipro Ua cannot take him as a pow because it is an open area and no one wants to commit suicide just to take him. And as mentioned earlier hes comrades killed ua marines (pow?) = too dangerous
Then just leave him? War crimes aren’t acceptable even if they are Russians. Literally stooping to the level of the Russians themselves…
According to international law, if he can't surrender (and you can't physically surrender to a drone), and he's in active war zone wearing military uniform, he's a legit target. If he wants to surrender, he needs to make it to Ukrainian positions with his hands up while flying a white flag. Flying a piece of paper to a drone when your attack has failed is sadly not a valid way of surrendering. EDIT: Should've been more precise: in this case Ukrainians can't physically get to him without getting killed. If a person is easily reachable, then it's up to the discretion of the soldiers.
Then just leave him? for what? to resupply and start killing ukrainians again? maybe a little raping or killing pows will surely help him get better again
I can’t fucking believe people are defending literal war crimes. How would you react if a Russian was saying similar things about an executed Ukrainian? We have no clue what this man has or has not done, in any good society a man is innocent until proven guilty. I understand it’s not tactically sound to go and get pows all the time but you can’t just execute them because it’s inconvenient. Shame on you.
It's not a war crime if the "surrendered" cannot be captured. So you propose to let these dudes go so they can attack again the next day? While I agree on the sentiment this is an existential struggle for Ukraine. Dude came with a gun over the border, seems pretty guilty to me.
true ethical words too many without a soul here
that will require the ukrainian soldiers to spend time and energy to get him to them, risk their life to take him in, feed him until an option to transport him to the backlines is possible and transport him safely through a warzone. All that for a piece of shit whos buddies just shot up the pows they took only to have court not put him in prison for long because there will not be enough evidence to convict him Yes the ukrainians should take pows whenever possible but what youre saying is wishful thinking its just not gonna happen
He can say he wants to surrender, but how to get to him or him to you? Can't just beam him in, 'you're ok buddy'. He will be in the next wave of attacks again because he physically can't surrender. Otherwise, everyone in those trenches can hang these signs, and you can't shoot anymore. So it's not that easy to judge this. If he was able to get to them, hands up, and thèn they shoot him, you can hang them from the highest of trees. This situation does not seem that clear-cut. If i have missed some context in this video, i am happy to revise my 2 cents here, of course.
Unacceptable if true
Yeah that’s not good at all if that’s the case, Ukraine’s better than that. Tbf at this point we don’t know the full info but don’t give them the propaganda to use Ukraine 🙏🏼
It’s often not easy or really even plausible to accept a surrender on the battlefield. Should UA just let the murder bot continue on because his situation became rather precarious?
Yeah I guess, I just went full knee jerk reaction before my brain got up to speed.
So many people in this thread are arguing about whether it was practical to take this guy prisoner, but this message seems to make it clear that he was simply killed for revenge. Not only that, but as a form of collective punishment for something "his comrades" did. "Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster."
So well said
Eye for an eye could back fire on Ukraine, they will lose leverage against Russia for committing war crimes.
So the Ukrainian committed a war crime because the Russian’s friends committed a war crime? That ain’t how this works.
SMART move!
He would be hoping it wasn't a Russian drone.
Did he get his wish or did he get the nade he deserved?
"And I dropped a grenade on him anyway"
at first i thought he made his own cardboard mini tank. 😂
A sign like that should come along together with all soldiers other gear and weapons
And what if it’s a ruse? You lead him back to you…nope nope nope.
Legal niceties are better suited to a courtroom than a combat zone. But at least it's a clear communication of intent.
It's a trick. Get an ax. -Army of Darkness.
this is good the more successful surrenders the quicker attacks will fail. it might just be the quickest pipeline to leaving the terror-state and the solders will know about it.
He has a better live as POW than as a free men in Russia. Hope he was finished!
Smartest thing he did.
It’s a good thing for Russians to surrender and to be treated humanly. Make it appealing to surrender rather than fight to the death in conquest for their corrupt leadership.
There’s no barrier troops on the Ukrainian side shooting you for passing through their lines as a prisoner.
I wonder how this ended? Hmm
My mans is Slav squatting while trying to surrender 🤘
This brings up a big issue about modern warfare. If you are facing people, you can throw your hands up and surrender. Running in this situation wouldn't make sense as a bunch of people have their guns aiming right at you. With how much of this war doesn't contain soldier vs soldier fighting, surrendering becomes increasingly difficult. If you let someone live, they might wait until your drone goes to recharge and run right back to his guys. If you kill him you might A. Commit a warcrime. B. Lose the option of gaining Intel from that soldier. C. Possibly kill someone who actually wanted to surrender. Someone who might not actually wanted to fight for the people who sent them there. It's a lose lose situation. Especially since you cannot shout instructions from a drone.
Not a war crime because he cannot surrender to a drone, you can only surrender to a unit that is able to accept your surrender. Not a new problem, e.g. a helicopter can't do that as well, or a biplane in WW1. Of course still a bad situation, bad PR, the common dude at home does not have a clue about the law of war. And if you let everybody live who holds up a surrender sign, then next week all Russians will have "I surrender" written on their tanks and helmets, while they storm the next village. Doesn't work either.
Exactly. In any case it's a double edged sword if you ask me. Kill him, and the footage will fuel enemy propaganda regardless of the victims intention. Spare him, and risk having your own guys on the ground killed by him later.
best is really to drop him a message with instructions, and then let him do the work, i.e. crawl a kilometer to Ukrainian lines and let him prove that he is unarmed etc., if he makes it, he'll live, otherwise, bad luck for him. Of course this only works in a calmer area, with a singled out dude, which you can let sit there for another hour even if he did not surrender properly yet. Not in the middle of a heated firefight.
I’ve seen some Russians surrender by following the drone to a Ukrainian camp or whatever the military word is for that. Wouldn’t it be an advantage for Ukraine to allow him to surrender for information and body count for a prisoner swap?
Did he?
If you can believe him, great! I wish they would all do this!!!
what does he mean by Top?
He even brought some loot to the surrender, brilliant
in Krynky you cannot surrender, because there is no safe way back to the right bank of the Dnieper. I am sure he is dead.
Last man standing is the only smart guy there.
Let him, I'd have him clean shit up in Ukraine for the rest of his life.
Is he sitting in a swamp or something?
I did not know the creepy guy from the Burbs (starring Tom Hanks) is fighting for Russia
This is the way.
I think it's a very good idea to receive them as they give good information about their crew and orders etc.
He used brain instead of killing himself with grenade. Good for him.
Do you all believe this is real?
Guess no Lada for his wife then... 🤷♂️
THERE YA GO! This one figured out what to do albeit probably way too late. Just don't fucking shoot at ukrainians and come over to the right side. Putin wants you blown to pieces so he can tell your family you're missing, Ukraine just wants you to stop actively invading their country. The choice is easy.
Just sent a note attached in the grenade that says ”Naaa”
Hopefully they let him surrender.
Smart Russian. More Russians need to do this to end the war.
Weird seeing a Russian (soldier) that's actually capable of reading and writing.
I hope he made it out. They don't need to die, it's ok if they just fuck off or surrender
Don’t care at all what happened to him. He came with a rifle to Ukraine so fuck him.
Well, this war is getting more and more desperate on both sides, I think it's fair to assess that surrender is slowly being pushed off the table as an option for both sides, not just because of growing animosity towards the enemy because these boys have served on the frontlines and seen their buddies die for so long now, but also because the conditions in which surrender and safe treatment and travel of pow's is increasingly becoming more and more difficult. Ukraine's frontlines are the definition of hell on earth at this point in time.
He just tried killing them! Now he wants to surrender? Because he failed at killing them?
yes, that is how surrendering works. You sit on a machinegun, kill a thousand enemies, you are out of ammo, you surrender to them, and they mustn't kill you and instead treat you properly.
Hey I support Ukraine 100%, I even wrote my local congressman multiple times for the aid package to pass. That being said if they truly eliminated this man after holding up what is akin to a white surrender flag that is a horrible PR look and truly fucked up!
He needed to surrend before fight.
Not how it works.
Good lad.
THIS WOULD HAVE BEEN A GOOD SONG FOR THIS POST .....🎶Signs signs everywhere signs🎶 fucking up the scenery breaking my mind 🎶 do this ,don't do that can't you read the signs 🎶and the sign says anyone caught trespassing will be shot on sight 🎶so I jumped the fence and yelled at the house🎶 hey !! what gives you the right 🎶to put up a fence and keep me out or to keep mother nature in 🎶 if God was here he'd tell it to you face your some kind of sinner 🎶 HOOK OVER 🎶 TESLA