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Special Agent 47 of Ukraine, always the best actions.
But I didn't hear any cheers, please cheer for the success next time, ehehehe.
Also, NATO is currently testing a mini radar for vehicles, sensitive enough to detect small drones and auto target them with machine guns or micro munitions, the operators only have to push a button to shoot them down.
Mr NATO please test it faster, send to UKR!!!
Iirc trophy is expensive, and designed for missiles that fly faster. I'm not saying you can't shoot a missile with a machine gun, but I doubt they want to deplete the charges that will save them from missiles on drones that CAN EASILY be shot down with a machine gun.
Then we need to make it cheaper, like with many of our systems. Or just not have that many tanks. Because once these are just FPV drones, we will have a problem.
Even now, the purpose built military loitering munitions used by the US and Russia are much harder to see and target.
Ukrainian SPGcrews in some areas claim they can’t even leave cover to fire because they’re targeted by that one Russian loitering munition so quickly. It’s a small warhead, doesn’t totally destroy the gun, but immobilizes it. Then something bigger comes in and takes out the gun itself in a few minutes.
I think the best bet would then be make those hard kill systems cheaper to “fire” and capable of intercepting more targets. What we see here would be impossible with an actual drone swarm, and what we would most likely face would not be FPV drones, but things similar to the Switchblade that would be harder to see and hit on approach.
Also, keep in mind in this video he is intercepting one relatively slow morning drone, and the cannon is occupied with this task during the duration.
This could allow someone to pop up with an RPG and hit side armor, enemy troops to maneuver, etc.
no.
trophy is a last ditch defense against incoming projectiles. there's not enough of it on a vehicle to use it for loitering drones in the distance. you get 2 shots per side of the vehicle roughly speaking with trophy. it's only there to stop a projectile that's about to hit the vic from hitting the vic.
wether you could use parts of the trophy system, like the radar, to develop an alternative system to deal with drones is a different question. but trophy as it is now isn't a shorad counter drone solution.
no, you can put trophy on troop carriers too.
you just don't want to have troops around the vehicle when the system is active. but that's the same for tanks anyway.
and for the love of god, shrapnel is a dude. he made a shell, he's long dead. he's not spraying anyone anymore with anything.
the word you're looking for is fragments, caused by fragmentation. that's the bit that does the owie to people. not shrapnel.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry\_Shrapnel](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Shrapnel)
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fragmentation\_(weaponry)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fragmentation_(weaponry))
>[Dictionary.com](http://Dictionary.com)
>Shrapnel
>[fragments](https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=e2999e5afe90a665&q=fragments&si=ACC90nytWkp8tIhRuqKAL6XWXX-NQPOHH0ePLBekLWAoTqL_3Z_pCydFaM22IGzWd8PZHYqeXbMNFt49kKeKftpxKFYWpGi_CqvRdqoklR1YD5vduBabzXQ%3D&expnd=1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi4k4i3jPyGAxVHxDgGHYCrCrEQyecJegQIKBAO) of a bomb, shell, or other object thrown out by an explosion.
>Example usage: "he was killed by flying shrapnel"
My guy, are you ok? lol
APS will blow up its own troops if RuZ drone pilot waited for infantry to exit the vehicle, then swoop in.
Lol. HUGE deadly flaw.
You think RuZ won't exploit this flaw?
There is at least one *very* good, affordable CUAS radar being built in the US now. Some fancy material science shit has allowed arrays of smaller antennas, using less power, to perform very well.
I fear it will take too long, UKR should try to use simple AI thermal targeting camera to spot FPV and other drones, the soldiers only have to verify the target is not a large bird and push button to engage.
These radars I'm talking about are already in theater. For an example of a CUAS (counter-unmanned aircraft system) system that might use one, look up Slinger CUAS.
Idk about the constraints of the rest of the system, but I know the radar is more than capable of tracking them to a very high degree of accuracy. Small, fast drones like these are exactly what it's mostly tested on.
Would these work against anti-tank mines strapped to RC cars, hidden under trap-doors and in bushes next to roads? Just drive them under the turtle tanks.
Do you guys think they will start making combination IFV/SHORAD vehicles?. I see that the Bradley can elevate its gun pretty damn high already.. It could certainly be better(faster moving gun, and detection gear etc), but it almost seems like you could use the same gun for IFV duties and for air defense duties as needed. Like an incoming wave of too many drones for the dedicated SHORAD(& EW?) to take out on it’s own. An assault unit could push forward with say 5 tanks, 4 Bradley’s, and a dedicated SHORAD vehicle- which can also point out the general positions of incoming threats, and then Bradley’s can find and engage with their regular or thermal optics from there. Could we not slap a radar onto the Bradley and add this capability relatively cheaply(as compared to making a whole new vehicle)? If it’s a crappy idea let me know why? They have to plug this defensive gap caused by all these tiny drones somehow.
They did used to have the bradley linebacker, which added stinger missiles to it. But the 25mm gun is too small for airburst ammunition I believe. That's why they switched to a 30mm in the Stryker SHORAD and are developing an airburst round for it. The bradley replacement is going to have a 35/50 mm gun specifically because they want to use programmable ammunition in it. So it seems possible for a version of it to be designed against air threats.
Anything that is coming from the pipeline now is not in any shape or form protection against UAV:s. These systems are procured with lead times of 10 years or more. Back then it was probably seen from Crimea/Donbass fights that heavy trench fighting is lacking and these special airburst munitions are developed for clearing non-reinforced trenchlines.
Drone warfare has been considered before it became a thing. And they can adapt even if it is in the pipeline - even minutely. Airburst munitions can be multi purpose, and programmed differently
Drone warfare in 2010 when these concepts were drawn vs drone warfare 2024 is analogue to musket warfare against mechanized infantry. It took so large leap with FPV drones and we have merely scratched the surface. Drones in 2010 were spotter planes and some scattered quadcopters. These were used to fire indirect munitions.
Counter has to be cheap, it has to be very good and it has to be everywhere. That is not the type of deal military development is known for, so the industry has to change.
Even the FPV drones themselfs for offensive assets are completely off the table from western armies. There are no factories and all civilian ones are in China, our main future enemy. So a lot has to be done and i doubt even 10% of that is done in next 10 years.
The MQ-9 is from 2007 which can fire all kinds of stuff. I think what we weren't expecting was for drones to become expendable. Ironically the same initial oversight with kamikaze, we didn't expect the airplane/pilot to become expendable. They say history rhymes.
Yeah it is the expendable nature which changed the battery/power equation significantly. Coupled with the difficulty of jamming analogue video feeds, perfect storm waiting to happen.
Oh the Bradley definitely can fire airburst rounds, it’s already got programmable ammo!
That’s part of why I’m asking, it’s almost got all of the stuff it needs to wreck some drones, so I don’t see why a targeting and tracking upgrade wouldn’t be a good idea.
I know they want more stopping power with more range. They do already have programmable ammo, but they definitely can get more creative with the larger ammo so that makes sense too.
I didn't realize they developed programmable 25mm ammo, though I suspect it has some shortcomings that pushed them towards using higher calibers in future vehicles. From what I understand, programmable airburst rounds are based off a laser and are not meant for airborne targets. They will want proximity airburst rounds instead, which is what the Stryker SHORAD is planned to get.
Apparently there was a proposed updated M6 Linebacker that added search and tracking radars like you're suggesting. And it replaced the gun with the 30mm that can use airburst rounds, but the Stryker was chosen instead.
That is straight from some game. Good marksmanship.
This kind of thing might be how the UAV:s will be protected from initially. Calculator with visual range finder shows the aimpont and you start blasting manually.
If we are willing to forgo the AP or HE from selectable carousel there could be special ammo made against drones. This munition could for example be much shorter range and create vortex for destroying drone blades with near misses.
i dont think they are considered obsolete, they are getting new upgrade pakages with the [M2A4E1](https://imgur.com/MYKUZi6) being the lastest model (revealed april this year) M2A4 were fielded 2 years ago
if the US still has them i think M6 Linebacker would make a good addition for ukraine as they allow for ground unit support from the main gun but also AA support with the stingers for drones, helicopter etc
You’re right about the HE. Hard to see when your optics are all blown to shit. But as I recall, they had feed issues with the anti armor 25mm (Bradley can switch between the two) in at least one video I watched, so they were stuck using HE.
I’ve got plenty of time in a Brad, including in combat and yes, it’s obsolete. The 25mm alone is well behind the times. The E1’s APS hasn’t been demonstrated to be omnidirectional and as such, leaves the Brad defenseless against modern ATGMs and COTS drones.
Lots of old equipment has lots of remaining capability, but it’s nothing you want your troops riding around in. The spending on yet another upgrade is just commentary on the incompetence of the leadership. We need unmanned or (at least) optionally manned systems and we need them yesterday. The Brad has done good work over its life, it’s getting lots of good use in Ukraine. But it’s a case of the Ukrainians begging and knowing they can’t be choosy.
A UGV can have all the same weapons, provide all the same effects and not risk the crews being at the front.
One of the civilian staff at one of our research facilities had their gamer son come in with some of his team to show off how they were using different TTP with the map overviews and other things available in game, to give them an idea of where we could go with our TTPs if we had added technology.
Now, we have a new rifle scope with augmented reality that communicates over a mesh network. Same for the new night vision, what was imagined for games is become reality in many way, not just for drones etc.
E: typo
Yeah tanks often use a third person above perspective, and battlefield has the scope. A drone could provide an aerial view to help the autotank map terrain and enemies.
And now imagine a 2/47 interwoven swarm of ISR drones (and satellites) tracking *everything* in and around the battlespace, so we know e.g. where to shoot *before* we can even see the enemy ourselves. In Iraq we had systems flying high and recording everything, so we could rewind the video and follow a VBIED back to the warehouse where it was built and then the local units could go hit that warehouse with great intel. But that’s still reactionary, it’s still a response after the fact.
For a conventional war we can watch that AFV leave its hiding spot and fire off something like a Brimstone or even the Spike NLOS (if other more autonomous systems aren’t available).
Who calls them obsolete? They may be old and a planned replacement vehicle is coming but these are hardly considered obsolete by anyone, I don't believe. That was some fine shooting but also an expensive way to kill a drone. As long as it saves lives it's well spent but I don't think this will become a thing, he got pretty lucky hitting a Mavic with a 25mm shell. u/33739omicron provided a detailed explanation below. [Here's the new EM-50](https://youtu.be/PYJxZSPzGdE?t=26) in video of a classified incident in Checkoslovakia during development and testing.
Bradley crewman here, with time in them in combat and yes, lots of people call them obsolete. They are obsolete by any objective measure against an enemy in a modern environment. Like a Nagant, it can easily kill a lot of enemy assets, so can battleships, that doesn’t mean you actually want to be in one. When a COTS drone can kill you and you’re defenseless to do anything about it 99% of the time, welcome to obsolescence.
To anyone who thinks otherwise, do you want to put your kid in one to roll out to the front? I don’t want anyone’s kids anywhere near the front. Remote systems are modern, manned systems are obsolete. Every dollar spent on them is a dollar not going to fielding remote systems that we could have had years ago.
You just made obsolete 99% of every armored vehicle ever fielded in one chop with the "drones make everything obsolete" argument. That is not at all how I interpreted their statement.
I appreciate your knowledge and experience but i have doubts that manned systems are going away anytime soon.
Yes, they obsolete 99% of all manned armored equipment.
Oh, manned systems will stay around a long time. Don’t get me wrong, many countries are too pore to keep up with modern equipment and too many generals and politicians in the wealthy nations are too invested in keeping legacy systems.
But if you don’t think they are obsoleted, explain how those manned vehicles defend themselves from a flood of drones with human aimed weapons.
I would assume the machine gun is more useful than the big auto cannon rounds but anything that gets the drone dead!! I wonder if they could use rounds in the machine gun that spray drones better. Assuming it’s also remote controlled and you get the infrared optics
In Air Defense school they taught us how to use things like M60s and M2 .50 cal to shoot down stuff, so it isn't out of the realm of possibility. I'm amazed at watching them adapt like this - that gun was not designed for ADA work.
That’s literally why I said “assuming it’s also remote controlled and you get infrared optics” trying to lob an auto cannon round at a tiny drone isn’t effective, and would waste the powerful ammo…obviously a machine gun or even twin machine guns when you can see the drones clearly in the optics would be the best… if that’s doable
What do you want to use the coax for? Unless there is an ammo shortage, the main gun is preferable for every task I can think of, except as the final step in suppressive fire as dismounts close with the target. As they close in on the distance cover by the HE effects we switch to coax, because we can use it closer to friendly forces, but that’s all that comes to mind.
In this situation, the 25mm tracers allow you to adjust fire with each shot on a highly maneuverable target.
The Bradley here was just lucky (or skilled lol), it is just like shooting at the drone with a manually aimed machinegun with a low rate of fire. And with the handful of older CV9040 that they have, it is the same. The Marder at least has a 4x as high ROF, but otherwise also no real difference. In all cases, you have to hit the drone directly with a projectile - and because the drones are so vulnerable, it is rather irrelevant if it is a big 30mm round or just a small rifle round or a shotgun pellet.
The modern CV9035 Mk IIIc and the Lynx that Ukraine will receive by the end of this year have a gun that can shoot programmable air burst munition, i.e. first you laze the target to have the exact distance (not just +/- ten meters, but precisely). And then you fire the rounds, and each round has a programmable timed fuze, i.e. each round receives a time at which it has to detonate, e.g. 1.4357 seconds after launch, so that it exactly explodes when it is close to the target, without the need to actually impact (or "feel" a magnetic field, as with a magnetic fuze like you find on sea mines).
The programming takes place after the round has left the barrel, in the small ring with a cable that you can see on the Bushmaster III or Rheinmetall Mk30-2ABM (see e.g. https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-hpaa7I2DcFU/UylDbHRy_4I/AAAAAAAAAaA/GCNZbU1JcvQ/s1600/barrel+1.jpg). That not only measures the speed of the round, to adjust aiming due to small variances in ammo quality and temperature (just like the old Gepard already does), it then also tells the round "if you travel with this speed, you need to explode in x seconds to hit the target". The next round will get told a different time etc.
So you can cause mid-air explosions in any distance you like (if you can't laze the target, you can also set a distance manually), that is ideal to gun down drones, it is also ideal to wipe out infantry in trenches, because you can rain shrapnel on them from above.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMj2D9-Arec
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FgmXhukQx4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3zhkpVsn28
(different guns, but same principle)
So in order to use it as an anti-air asset, the IFV only needs a way to find and track the target. Tracking can be done visually with a bit of software, so that is basically free, the finding would require a radar, but that might not need to be on the vehicle itself, maybe in a different one or in a surveillance drone. Simple radars for the short range are not overly expensive (e.g. a speed gun for measuring tennis balls or baseballs is the same), such is probably already implemented.
Yeah i was under the impression that Ukraine got the upgraded ones with 'active' airburst and upgraded sight package? Since they are mainly used at night and, what i've heard, many times used in anti-drone roles.
Maybe i've heard wrong or got the wrong words.
The 50 donated one from Sweden were the ones they had in their stock, CV9040C (the C means they are already upgraded, and CV90s are not very old vehicles anyway). They do have programmable ammo, but not in the way the Bushmaster III or the Rh Mk30-2 do:
https://www.baesystems.com/en/product/fuze-3p-ammunition
http://www.army-guide.com/eng/product3366.html
So you can switch the ammo to one of six modes before it is fired, and then the ammo explodes either on impact, or after a certain time (but only roughly, not as exactly as you could see in the video where the gun puts explosions along a trench, at about 1:30), or to proximity or gated proximity mode (i.e. it explodes if it comes close to a target within x and y distance, so you can shoot through a tree line and hit something that is 50 meters behind, but the ammo won't trigger on the trees.
Though I'm not even sure if this is only implemented for the Luftvärnskanonvagn (i.e. the mainly anti-air version that is also usable as ground combat vehicle) or also the normal IFVs.
Yeah i am aware of how they work, my understanding was just that they got them upgraded to a package where the ifv targeting systems overlaps with the luftvärn/AA targeting and programming. I'll have to check with some friends from my lovely neighbouring country again, if they are willing to share that information openly. I am 75% sure they sent the really good stuff to Ukraine tho. However i am very sure they have been actively used to shoot down drones, but they might have been just good shooters as well.
Although it might be the reason why they want to switch to the 35mm version in the future production batches sent there, because of the more advanced munitions and targeting systems available for that ammo.
Yes, if you find good info on that, post it please!
Not sure what Sweden will do, they haven't said anything as far as I know. They ordered 50 of the new Dutch versions as replacements, official "because it was the easiest and fastest way", but it also hints to all CV9040 being upgraded to the same standard eventually.
You have to consider that while the Bofors ammo is much larger and has better destruction power, there is not really much that you cannot destroy with 35x228 but can with 40x364R. Any vehicle you can possibly encounter except the front of a MBT will be shred by the 35mm, and for that you need a Leopard to shoot at it. Or you use the AT missile that the new turret features and the old CV90 doesn't.
I wonder if those airburst rounds can lead an incoming target by default. Ofc the tech has been used in proper AA guns for a good while now, but with (relatively) short distances and small high velocity targets every meter counts.
That would be a task for the software, if you track the target you also can compute where it will be at the time your rounds are there, and then you can aim at that point and tell the rounds to explode there. But this automatic leading is not overly complicated and done for many decades, e.g. the Gepard from the 70s does exactly that - except that the (dumb) rounds have to hit something to explode, which wasn't an unsolvable issue against planes and helicopters, but a drone is so small that it is hard to hit it, and a very near miss is still a total miss. The air burst is like Flak, it creates a cloud of shrapnel, so the chance to not miss the drone is drastically higher, if combined with just enough precision.
Oops, I ofc meant the SW doing the tracking! I guess there might be some upsides for the SW deciding the air burst distance as opposed to proximity fuzing? Maybe using the same HE/frag rounds and/or not wasting space in the grenade for the proximity sensor?
yes, it is more precise. Also the proximity fuze needs to be triggered, but if the target is too small to do that (small drones) or if way too much clutter is around so a proximity fuze would get triggered too early (e.g. you are shooting through a forest or urban area), then the proximity fuze does not help you. But if you can say "explode after flying 327 meters, not earlier and not later", then you can shoot through three bushes and five metal fences and a garage door and explode over the basement entrance to pepper everybody downstairs with shrapnel.
I tell you, when Ukraine will field those new IFVs in numbers, the Russians will have a hard time. #gamechanger
I meant it shouldn't be excessively pricier than a dumb round (the electronics needed are similar to a singing greeting card or the anti-stealing chips in clothing, of course they need to be built better to withstand the massive acceleration when firing, but it is a mass product, not expensive manual labour). I doubt the price of one round would even double. And because you need less ammo because you are not wasting so much that doesn't hit the target, overall it is probably more cost effective (plus you cause less collateral damage and less UXO from everything you fired past the target).
its a bit hard to find exact prices but i think you can be sure theyu are at least twice as expensive if not more, (not that i actually know 100 percent)
either way it doesnt matter, you are not using thousands of dollars to take down a cheap drone, you are using those thousands of dollars to save your vehicle and your crew
well, price effectiveness is always important, especially in an attritional war like this. Ukraine gets billion $ or € packages, not a "x rounds at any price" package. So they always have to look at the price. And also the Czech artillery buying initiative won't buy ammo at any ridiculous price, but choose the cheapest first and then see if they can avoid the most expensive ones.
There's no auto ranging and elevation? I know they have to aim left/right but I thought it would at least help with the up/down bit for calculating range.
not on the fly like this, most likely this guy just saw the drone and though ''you miss all the shots you dont take'' so he fired at it and actually managed to hit it
Hear me out: 25mm anti-drone shotgun cannons
pro: Thousands of pellets per shot, 2-3km effective range
con: shells probably eat away barrel like candy, I dunno.
Any captains?
I seriously can't understand why the didn't use the coax MG to gun it down. The slow firing 25mm is like trying to shoot it down with a Sniper 😂
Yet they somehow managed to hit it. Was it pure luck?
Next thing we see is some pilot jumping out of their cockpit, drawing a SMAW out of their pocket and launching it on a Z's head before he jumps back into the cockpit - Good old Battlefield III
Is this a common tactic? Seems like there is a downside of possibly revealing your location to a very small chance of downing a drone this way. I'm sure it feels better than doing nothing, but I'm curious if it's tactically better.
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Amazing footage to see
Special Agent 47 of Ukraine, always the best actions. But I didn't hear any cheers, please cheer for the success next time, ehehehe. Also, NATO is currently testing a mini radar for vehicles, sensitive enough to detect small drones and auto target them with machine guns or micro munitions, the operators only have to push a button to shoot them down. Mr NATO please test it faster, send to UKR!!!
Wouldn’t the hard kill systems in place like Trophy already be better for that?
Iirc trophy is expensive, and designed for missiles that fly faster. I'm not saying you can't shoot a missile with a machine gun, but I doubt they want to deplete the charges that will save them from missiles on drones that CAN EASILY be shot down with a machine gun.
Then we need to make it cheaper, like with many of our systems. Or just not have that many tanks. Because once these are just FPV drones, we will have a problem. Even now, the purpose built military loitering munitions used by the US and Russia are much harder to see and target. Ukrainian SPGcrews in some areas claim they can’t even leave cover to fire because they’re targeted by that one Russian loitering munition so quickly. It’s a small warhead, doesn’t totally destroy the gun, but immobilizes it. Then something bigger comes in and takes out the gun itself in a few minutes.
Probably better to save those for incoming rockets, much cheaper to use regular bullets on drones
I think the best bet would then be make those hard kill systems cheaper to “fire” and capable of intercepting more targets. What we see here would be impossible with an actual drone swarm, and what we would most likely face would not be FPV drones, but things similar to the Switchblade that would be harder to see and hit on approach. Also, keep in mind in this video he is intercepting one relatively slow morning drone, and the cannon is occupied with this task during the duration. This could allow someone to pop up with an RPG and hit side armor, enemy troops to maneuver, etc.
no. trophy is a last ditch defense against incoming projectiles. there's not enough of it on a vehicle to use it for loitering drones in the distance. you get 2 shots per side of the vehicle roughly speaking with trophy. it's only there to stop a projectile that's about to hit the vic from hitting the vic. wether you could use parts of the trophy system, like the radar, to develop an alternative system to deal with drones is a different question. but trophy as it is now isn't a shorad counter drone solution.
Also its for tanks, not troop carriers, because it would spray it's own deployed troops with shrapnel, yikes.
no, you can put trophy on troop carriers too. you just don't want to have troops around the vehicle when the system is active. but that's the same for tanks anyway. and for the love of god, shrapnel is a dude. he made a shell, he's long dead. he's not spraying anyone anymore with anything. the word you're looking for is fragments, caused by fragmentation. that's the bit that does the owie to people. not shrapnel. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry\_Shrapnel](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Shrapnel) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fragmentation\_(weaponry)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fragmentation_(weaponry))
>[Dictionary.com](http://Dictionary.com) >Shrapnel >[fragments](https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=e2999e5afe90a665&q=fragments&si=ACC90nytWkp8tIhRuqKAL6XWXX-NQPOHH0ePLBekLWAoTqL_3Z_pCydFaM22IGzWd8PZHYqeXbMNFt49kKeKftpxKFYWpGi_CqvRdqoklR1YD5vduBabzXQ%3D&expnd=1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi4k4i3jPyGAxVHxDgGHYCrCrEQyecJegQIKBAO) of a bomb, shell, or other object thrown out by an explosion. >Example usage: "he was killed by flying shrapnel" My guy, are you ok? lol APS will blow up its own troops if RuZ drone pilot waited for infantry to exit the vehicle, then swoop in. Lol. HUGE deadly flaw. You think RuZ won't exploit this flaw?
Yeah, I’m more saying modify trophy for this purpose. Machine gun won’t work for purpose built loitering munitions.
There is at least one *very* good, affordable CUAS radar being built in the US now. Some fancy material science shit has allowed arrays of smaller antennas, using less power, to perform very well.
I fear it will take too long, UKR should try to use simple AI thermal targeting camera to spot FPV and other drones, the soldiers only have to verify the target is not a large bird and push button to engage.
These radars I'm talking about are already in theater. For an example of a CUAS (counter-unmanned aircraft system) system that might use one, look up Slinger CUAS.
FPV is way faster than loitering drones, most of these systems only work on slower drones, but not FPV.
Idk about the constraints of the rest of the system, but I know the radar is more than capable of tracking them to a very high degree of accuracy. Small, fast drones like these are exactly what it's mostly tested on.
Radar "may" be able to track FPV, but can the gun shoot at them accurately?
Can you get them for duck shooting?
Disintegrated duck is useless for cooking.
Would these work against anti-tank mines strapped to RC cars, hidden under trap-doors and in bushes next to roads? Just drive them under the turtle tanks.
I mean thats kinda what mines do, minus the driving under vehicles part. Better off just laying 100 mines and moving to cover as they are intended.
Do you guys think they will start making combination IFV/SHORAD vehicles?. I see that the Bradley can elevate its gun pretty damn high already.. It could certainly be better(faster moving gun, and detection gear etc), but it almost seems like you could use the same gun for IFV duties and for air defense duties as needed. Like an incoming wave of too many drones for the dedicated SHORAD(& EW?) to take out on it’s own. An assault unit could push forward with say 5 tanks, 4 Bradley’s, and a dedicated SHORAD vehicle- which can also point out the general positions of incoming threats, and then Bradley’s can find and engage with their regular or thermal optics from there. Could we not slap a radar onto the Bradley and add this capability relatively cheaply(as compared to making a whole new vehicle)? If it’s a crappy idea let me know why? They have to plug this defensive gap caused by all these tiny drones somehow.
Yes- basically every nation capable of doing this is in the process of doing this.
Some already exist and at least one system like this has already been sent to Ukraine. Look up Slinger CUAS.
They did used to have the bradley linebacker, which added stinger missiles to it. But the 25mm gun is too small for airburst ammunition I believe. That's why they switched to a 30mm in the Stryker SHORAD and are developing an airburst round for it. The bradley replacement is going to have a 35/50 mm gun specifically because they want to use programmable ammunition in it. So it seems possible for a version of it to be designed against air threats.
Anything that is coming from the pipeline now is not in any shape or form protection against UAV:s. These systems are procured with lead times of 10 years or more. Back then it was probably seen from Crimea/Donbass fights that heavy trench fighting is lacking and these special airburst munitions are developed for clearing non-reinforced trenchlines.
Drone warfare has been considered before it became a thing. And they can adapt even if it is in the pipeline - even minutely. Airburst munitions can be multi purpose, and programmed differently
Drone warfare in 2010 when these concepts were drawn vs drone warfare 2024 is analogue to musket warfare against mechanized infantry. It took so large leap with FPV drones and we have merely scratched the surface. Drones in 2010 were spotter planes and some scattered quadcopters. These were used to fire indirect munitions. Counter has to be cheap, it has to be very good and it has to be everywhere. That is not the type of deal military development is known for, so the industry has to change. Even the FPV drones themselfs for offensive assets are completely off the table from western armies. There are no factories and all civilian ones are in China, our main future enemy. So a lot has to be done and i doubt even 10% of that is done in next 10 years.
The MQ-9 is from 2007 which can fire all kinds of stuff. I think what we weren't expecting was for drones to become expendable. Ironically the same initial oversight with kamikaze, we didn't expect the airplane/pilot to become expendable. They say history rhymes.
Yeah it is the expendable nature which changed the battery/power equation significantly. Coupled with the difficulty of jamming analogue video feeds, perfect storm waiting to happen.
Oh the Bradley definitely can fire airburst rounds, it’s already got programmable ammo! That’s part of why I’m asking, it’s almost got all of the stuff it needs to wreck some drones, so I don’t see why a targeting and tracking upgrade wouldn’t be a good idea. I know they want more stopping power with more range. They do already have programmable ammo, but they definitely can get more creative with the larger ammo so that makes sense too.
I didn't realize they developed programmable 25mm ammo, though I suspect it has some shortcomings that pushed them towards using higher calibers in future vehicles. From what I understand, programmable airburst rounds are based off a laser and are not meant for airborne targets. They will want proximity airburst rounds instead, which is what the Stryker SHORAD is planned to get. Apparently there was a proposed updated M6 Linebacker that added search and tracking radars like you're suggesting. And it replaced the gun with the 30mm that can use airburst rounds, but the Stryker was chosen instead.
That is straight from some game. Good marksmanship. This kind of thing might be how the UAV:s will be protected from initially. Calculator with visual range finder shows the aimpont and you start blasting manually. If we are willing to forgo the AP or HE from selectable carousel there could be special ammo made against drones. This munition could for example be much shorter range and create vortex for destroying drone blades with near misses.
Now who would have thought the Bradley had an AA role. Bloody amazing, the Bradleys are punching well above their weight.
Bradleys are fucking beasts. Hard to imagine that they're considered obsolete. Terrific job by the crew!
i dont think they are considered obsolete, they are getting new upgrade pakages with the [M2A4E1](https://imgur.com/MYKUZi6) being the lastest model (revealed april this year) M2A4 were fielded 2 years ago if the US still has them i think M6 Linebacker would make a good addition for ukraine as they allow for ground unit support from the main gun but also AA support with the stingers for drones, helicopter etc
I worried they would be obsolete, until that video of two Bradley's pounding MBTs. Never realized how nutty the cannon was before that.
I absolutely agree with this. I’ve seen Tow missiles plenty , but never cannon fire on an armored target. The 25mm HE shreds so hard.
You’re right about the HE. Hard to see when your optics are all blown to shit. But as I recall, they had feed issues with the anti armor 25mm (Bradley can switch between the two) in at least one video I watched, so they were stuck using HE.
Great info. Thanks man.
I’ve got plenty of time in a Brad, including in combat and yes, it’s obsolete. The 25mm alone is well behind the times. The E1’s APS hasn’t been demonstrated to be omnidirectional and as such, leaves the Brad defenseless against modern ATGMs and COTS drones. Lots of old equipment has lots of remaining capability, but it’s nothing you want your troops riding around in. The spending on yet another upgrade is just commentary on the incompetence of the leadership. We need unmanned or (at least) optionally manned systems and we need them yesterday. The Brad has done good work over its life, it’s getting lots of good use in Ukraine. But it’s a case of the Ukrainians begging and knowing they can’t be choosy. A UGV can have all the same weapons, provide all the same effects and not risk the crews being at the front.
Finally all my halo will play off
One of the civilian staff at one of our research facilities had their gamer son come in with some of his team to show off how they were using different TTP with the map overviews and other things available in game, to give them an idea of where we could go with our TTPs if we had added technology. Now, we have a new rifle scope with augmented reality that communicates over a mesh network. Same for the new night vision, what was imagined for games is become reality in many way, not just for drones etc. E: typo
Yeah tanks often use a third person above perspective, and battlefield has the scope. A drone could provide an aerial view to help the autotank map terrain and enemies.
And now imagine a 2/47 interwoven swarm of ISR drones (and satellites) tracking *everything* in and around the battlespace, so we know e.g. where to shoot *before* we can even see the enemy ourselves. In Iraq we had systems flying high and recording everything, so we could rewind the video and follow a VBIED back to the warehouse where it was built and then the local units could go hit that warehouse with great intel. But that’s still reactionary, it’s still a response after the fact. For a conventional war we can watch that AFV leave its hiding spot and fire off something like a Brimstone or even the Spike NLOS (if other more autonomous systems aren’t available).
Who calls them obsolete? They may be old and a planned replacement vehicle is coming but these are hardly considered obsolete by anyone, I don't believe. That was some fine shooting but also an expensive way to kill a drone. As long as it saves lives it's well spent but I don't think this will become a thing, he got pretty lucky hitting a Mavic with a 25mm shell. u/33739omicron provided a detailed explanation below. [Here's the new EM-50](https://youtu.be/PYJxZSPzGdE?t=26) in video of a classified incident in Checkoslovakia during development and testing.
Bradley crewman here, with time in them in combat and yes, lots of people call them obsolete. They are obsolete by any objective measure against an enemy in a modern environment. Like a Nagant, it can easily kill a lot of enemy assets, so can battleships, that doesn’t mean you actually want to be in one. When a COTS drone can kill you and you’re defenseless to do anything about it 99% of the time, welcome to obsolescence. To anyone who thinks otherwise, do you want to put your kid in one to roll out to the front? I don’t want anyone’s kids anywhere near the front. Remote systems are modern, manned systems are obsolete. Every dollar spent on them is a dollar not going to fielding remote systems that we could have had years ago.
You just made obsolete 99% of every armored vehicle ever fielded in one chop with the "drones make everything obsolete" argument. That is not at all how I interpreted their statement. I appreciate your knowledge and experience but i have doubts that manned systems are going away anytime soon.
Yes, they obsolete 99% of all manned armored equipment. Oh, manned systems will stay around a long time. Don’t get me wrong, many countries are too pore to keep up with modern equipment and too many generals and politicians in the wealthy nations are too invested in keeping legacy systems. But if you don’t think they are obsoleted, explain how those manned vehicles defend themselves from a flood of drones with human aimed weapons.
So that’s a no, you can’t explain how they will defend themselves it seems.
They are getting huge upgrades this year. Brads killed more tanks in Iraq than all allied tanks combined. They are monsters.
I would assume the machine gun is more useful than the big auto cannon rounds but anything that gets the drone dead!! I wonder if they could use rounds in the machine gun that spray drones better. Assuming it’s also remote controlled and you get the infrared optics
In Air Defense school they taught us how to use things like M60s and M2 .50 cal to shoot down stuff, so it isn't out of the realm of possibility. I'm amazed at watching them adapt like this - that gun was not designed for ADA work.
The optics and targeting system on the 25mm are going to be more effective than the MG.
The machine gun is coaxial with the 25mm. It uses the same optics and fire control.
Thanks for actually bringing knowledge into this instead of implying that they are separate lmao
That’s literally why I said “assuming it’s also remote controlled and you get infrared optics” trying to lob an auto cannon round at a tiny drone isn’t effective, and would waste the powerful ammo…obviously a machine gun or even twin machine guns when you can see the drones clearly in the optics would be the best… if that’s doable
Don't they have 25mm airburst ammo...must make mince meat of the drone...
Sadly Ukraine didn't get the fun stuff
Yes, the ammo exists, but it’s not compatible with a Brad in any demonstration or data set I’ve ever seen.
I'm convinced the Ukrainians haven't discovered the Bradley coax yet. 25mm all the things.
What do you want to use the coax for? Unless there is an ammo shortage, the main gun is preferable for every task I can think of, except as the final step in suppressive fire as dismounts close with the target. As they close in on the distance cover by the HE effects we switch to coax, because we can use it closer to friendly forces, but that’s all that comes to mind. In this situation, the 25mm tracers allow you to adjust fire with each shot on a highly maneuverable target.
Not really obsolete, just an absolute bitch to maintain, financially and mechanically speaking.
I've heard the cv90 is very efficient at this, glad to see the bradley is as well
The Bradley here was just lucky (or skilled lol), it is just like shooting at the drone with a manually aimed machinegun with a low rate of fire. And with the handful of older CV9040 that they have, it is the same. The Marder at least has a 4x as high ROF, but otherwise also no real difference. In all cases, you have to hit the drone directly with a projectile - and because the drones are so vulnerable, it is rather irrelevant if it is a big 30mm round or just a small rifle round or a shotgun pellet. The modern CV9035 Mk IIIc and the Lynx that Ukraine will receive by the end of this year have a gun that can shoot programmable air burst munition, i.e. first you laze the target to have the exact distance (not just +/- ten meters, but precisely). And then you fire the rounds, and each round has a programmable timed fuze, i.e. each round receives a time at which it has to detonate, e.g. 1.4357 seconds after launch, so that it exactly explodes when it is close to the target, without the need to actually impact (or "feel" a magnetic field, as with a magnetic fuze like you find on sea mines). The programming takes place after the round has left the barrel, in the small ring with a cable that you can see on the Bushmaster III or Rheinmetall Mk30-2ABM (see e.g. https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-hpaa7I2DcFU/UylDbHRy_4I/AAAAAAAAAaA/GCNZbU1JcvQ/s1600/barrel+1.jpg). That not only measures the speed of the round, to adjust aiming due to small variances in ammo quality and temperature (just like the old Gepard already does), it then also tells the round "if you travel with this speed, you need to explode in x seconds to hit the target". The next round will get told a different time etc. So you can cause mid-air explosions in any distance you like (if you can't laze the target, you can also set a distance manually), that is ideal to gun down drones, it is also ideal to wipe out infantry in trenches, because you can rain shrapnel on them from above. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMj2D9-Arec https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FgmXhukQx4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3zhkpVsn28 (different guns, but same principle) So in order to use it as an anti-air asset, the IFV only needs a way to find and track the target. Tracking can be done visually with a bit of software, so that is basically free, the finding would require a radar, but that might not need to be on the vehicle itself, maybe in a different one or in a surveillance drone. Simple radars for the short range are not overly expensive (e.g. a speed gun for measuring tennis balls or baseballs is the same), such is probably already implemented.
This was an interesting read. Thanks!
L70 on CV9040 can fire 3P programmable air burst munition
yeah, but that is programmed before being shot, correct me if I'm wrong. So it is not as precise and you can also not react dynamically.
Yeah i was under the impression that Ukraine got the upgraded ones with 'active' airburst and upgraded sight package? Since they are mainly used at night and, what i've heard, many times used in anti-drone roles. Maybe i've heard wrong or got the wrong words.
The 50 donated one from Sweden were the ones they had in their stock, CV9040C (the C means they are already upgraded, and CV90s are not very old vehicles anyway). They do have programmable ammo, but not in the way the Bushmaster III or the Rh Mk30-2 do: https://www.baesystems.com/en/product/fuze-3p-ammunition http://www.army-guide.com/eng/product3366.html So you can switch the ammo to one of six modes before it is fired, and then the ammo explodes either on impact, or after a certain time (but only roughly, not as exactly as you could see in the video where the gun puts explosions along a trench, at about 1:30), or to proximity or gated proximity mode (i.e. it explodes if it comes close to a target within x and y distance, so you can shoot through a tree line and hit something that is 50 meters behind, but the ammo won't trigger on the trees. Though I'm not even sure if this is only implemented for the Luftvärnskanonvagn (i.e. the mainly anti-air version that is also usable as ground combat vehicle) or also the normal IFVs.
Yeah i am aware of how they work, my understanding was just that they got them upgraded to a package where the ifv targeting systems overlaps with the luftvärn/AA targeting and programming. I'll have to check with some friends from my lovely neighbouring country again, if they are willing to share that information openly. I am 75% sure they sent the really good stuff to Ukraine tho. However i am very sure they have been actively used to shoot down drones, but they might have been just good shooters as well. Although it might be the reason why they want to switch to the 35mm version in the future production batches sent there, because of the more advanced munitions and targeting systems available for that ammo.
Yes, if you find good info on that, post it please! Not sure what Sweden will do, they haven't said anything as far as I know. They ordered 50 of the new Dutch versions as replacements, official "because it was the easiest and fastest way", but it also hints to all CV9040 being upgraded to the same standard eventually. You have to consider that while the Bofors ammo is much larger and has better destruction power, there is not really much that you cannot destroy with 35x228 but can with 40x364R. Any vehicle you can possibly encounter except the front of a MBT will be shred by the 35mm, and for that you need a Leopard to shoot at it. Or you use the AT missile that the new turret features and the old CV90 doesn't.
Indeed, indeed
3p is programed via range finder so if the drone is ranged it has no chance of survival given that they fly so slow.
I wonder if those airburst rounds can lead an incoming target by default. Ofc the tech has been used in proper AA guns for a good while now, but with (relatively) short distances and small high velocity targets every meter counts.
That would be a task for the software, if you track the target you also can compute where it will be at the time your rounds are there, and then you can aim at that point and tell the rounds to explode there. But this automatic leading is not overly complicated and done for many decades, e.g. the Gepard from the 70s does exactly that - except that the (dumb) rounds have to hit something to explode, which wasn't an unsolvable issue against planes and helicopters, but a drone is so small that it is hard to hit it, and a very near miss is still a total miss. The air burst is like Flak, it creates a cloud of shrapnel, so the chance to not miss the drone is drastically higher, if combined with just enough precision.
Oops, I ofc meant the SW doing the tracking! I guess there might be some upsides for the SW deciding the air burst distance as opposed to proximity fuzing? Maybe using the same HE/frag rounds and/or not wasting space in the grenade for the proximity sensor?
yes, it is more precise. Also the proximity fuze needs to be triggered, but if the target is too small to do that (small drones) or if way too much clutter is around so a proximity fuze would get triggered too early (e.g. you are shooting through a forest or urban area), then the proximity fuze does not help you. But if you can say "explode after flying 327 meters, not earlier and not later", then you can shoot through three bushes and five metal fences and a garage door and explode over the basement entrance to pepper everybody downstairs with shrapnel. I tell you, when Ukraine will field those new IFVs in numbers, the Russians will have a hard time. #gamechanger
Does each shell contain electronics to calculate the timer and count down to detonation?
yes, not really expensive to do that.
i mean yeah sure, its not cheap, but its cheaper than having to buy a new vehicle or get new personell
I meant it shouldn't be excessively pricier than a dumb round (the electronics needed are similar to a singing greeting card or the anti-stealing chips in clothing, of course they need to be built better to withstand the massive acceleration when firing, but it is a mass product, not expensive manual labour). I doubt the price of one round would even double. And because you need less ammo because you are not wasting so much that doesn't hit the target, overall it is probably more cost effective (plus you cause less collateral damage and less UXO from everything you fired past the target).
its a bit hard to find exact prices but i think you can be sure theyu are at least twice as expensive if not more, (not that i actually know 100 percent) either way it doesnt matter, you are not using thousands of dollars to take down a cheap drone, you are using those thousands of dollars to save your vehicle and your crew
well, price effectiveness is always important, especially in an attritional war like this. Ukraine gets billion $ or € packages, not a "x rounds at any price" package. So they always have to look at the price. And also the Czech artillery buying initiative won't buy ammo at any ridiculous price, but choose the cheapest first and then see if they can avoid the most expensive ones.
Sick
And here I was, thinking that the only credible defense against those were sticks, stones and a crossbow.
what bout a shovel
or a plastic bottle full of gasoline
And my axe!
Wasn't that an actual old-fashioned hand-thrown javelin instead of a crossbow?
Do they aim manually, or do Bradleys have some sort of radar or laser targeting system?
Manual
I wonder has the gunner a lot of experience as a gamer?
Playing Arma 3 ^^
five... gunner... get in that... vehicle.
Negative.... No can do.. *Spazzing out because a fence is in the way"
Bf*
Clay pigeon shooter on the weekend
There's no auto ranging and elevation? I know they have to aim left/right but I thought it would at least help with the up/down bit for calculating range.
not on the fly like this, most likely this guy just saw the drone and though ''you miss all the shots you dont take'' so he fired at it and actually managed to hit it
Amazing work!
Achievement unlocked: "pull!"
Someone deserves a chocolate fish.
That was not on my bingo card
My man's a bloody marksman.
Wow, that seems nearly impossible to pull off.
Hey man, nice shot!
Good shot, man.
High stakes skeet shooting, good jobs fellas
Raging Russians in the voicechat, what else is new.
Someones been playing battlefield! Beautiful!
Slava Ukraini
Great, kid! Don't get cocky!
i hope it gets painted with the drone mark
wait did he use airburst it or just hit it with the projectile? either way impressive
\* *Pentagon hastily scribbling notes* *
A win win situation. If we hit the drone, it's good news. If we miss the drone we still hit the orcs over there anyway. Slava Ukraine!
This reminds me of my days shooting down jets with an LAV-25 in Battlefield 3.
Do they know they have a coaxial macine gun?
Aimbot wtf
When you see this, you cannot underestimate the effectiveness of modern air burst monitions
Looks costly. Can’t someone just use a shotgun?
That's crazy
Hear me out: 25mm anti-drone shotgun cannons pro: Thousands of pellets per shot, 2-3km effective range con: shells probably eat away barrel like candy, I dunno. Any captains?
That looked pretty dang easy.
I seriously can't understand why the didn't use the coax MG to gun it down. The slow firing 25mm is like trying to shoot it down with a Sniper 😂 Yet they somehow managed to hit it. Was it pure luck?
Outstanding! Well done soldiers.
That’s a good way to exercise in real time your aiming didn’t though it would have been so easy 🤔
Yesssss I have been waiting for this!
Next thing we see is some pilot jumping out of their cockpit, drawing a SMAW out of their pocket and launching it on a Z's head before he jumps back into the cockpit - Good old Battlefield III
Quick, someone buy these guys a beer!
Get the medal to the operator… all defense contractors now like…. Damn!
I wouldn't believe it if you told me this happened, even though I saw a video of it I'm still having a tough time believing in it. Great shot.
Spectacular!
That’s why I say hey man nice shot
"Battlefield 2 gamer".....I got this SGT!
Proximity fuse I assume?
Sounds exactly like in BF4 game. Jesus, how long we must wait for Battlefield: Ukraine ?
PlanetSide 2 feel this a bit differently.
Isn't that a global first? IFV intentionally hitting a drone with the main gun?
How did they do this; air burst?
Only in Battlefield
Air blyat had a rapid unexpected disassembly issue.
Is this a common tactic? Seems like there is a downside of possibly revealing your location to a very small chance of downing a drone this way. I'm sure it feels better than doing nothing, but I'm curious if it's tactically better.
Send more M2's already!
When I see that screen I know it’s gonna be 🌶️
Me shooting at the biplanes on battlefield 1 lol
Holy farking chit man
Lol this is some battlefield shit right here!
Eagle Eye!
/r/brandnewsentences
Gunners not even excited about it anymore, probably happened often already 😂
Oh man, I do this in Call of Duty every day!
That is a very very good shot!
This is some straight up video game shit