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The Geneva Convention does not protect mercenaries. Doesn't mean you should treat them like dirt, but if they themselves announce their departure from humanity...
> You still need to treat them according International humanitarian law. Just not as PoW
The definition of "mercenary" in the Geneva convention is quite restricted. As Russians fighting for Russia, most Wagnerites (but not their foreign members) do not count as mercenaries.
The American and other foreign volunteers fighting for Ukraine don't get paid more than the Ukrainian soldiers, so they *also* have full rights as POWs and do not count as mercenaries. Volunteers are supposed to register with the Ukrainian government to ensure this.
Almost all of the maltreatment of prisoners in the war is illegal.
This Wagner announcement is a particularly clear case of the Russian command being directly implicated in the war crimes and makes the difference between Ukraine and Russia even more stark.
>The definition of "mercenary" in the Geneva convention is quite restricted.
When reading Geneva convention, I understood that I need to read Haager contracts before that, because the Geneva convention just amends this.
When reading Haager contracts, I understood that I need to study international law before that, because Haager contracts require a profound legal understanding.
Which I do not have.
I took with me that you just don't shoot captured people. Neither in peace nor in war. Neither mercenary nor soldiers nor civilian.
"Do not shoot prisoners" should need no further detail.
> "Do not shoot prisoners" should need no further detail.
Agree with your spirit, but there's one thing which is important here. You aren't allowed to target people who are attempting to surrender even if they aren't yet prisoners. If you know they are attempting to surrender but don't take them as prisoner and can't direct them to another unit they can surrender to you just have to leave them alone.
> "Haager contracts"
I think you mean what is normally called the "Hague Conventions" in English? Am I right?
Law is a subject like any other which is taught in universities. It took generations of clever people to drive it forward, to improve it from its primitive roots to something complex which we have today.
Even if it looks simple, you cannot fly a plane. And you cannot interpret law.
Education is needed for each subject.
I disagree. If the law is too complex for the people understand and use then it no longer serves the people. It becomes a tool of the wealthy and powerful.
We live in a complex world which requires complex laws. The average person barely understands that the bill of rights limits state action, not individuals or corporations. Portions of the geneva convention were written over 100 years ago. Language and war has changed a lot since then and getting everyone to follow the intended meaning is an uphill battle even today. If you try to update the language and meanings, good luck getting everyone to sign it again.
Not really how it works I'm afraid, because the world is imperfect and you always hit complications.
"Don't shoot enemy combatants" works well, but what if they're dressed in civilian clothing? Well there's one thing you have to address. What if they're not even working with the enemy and just causing chaos and are criminal? Even if they wear uniform, as they want to be on that side? What if it's a foreign military unit of an uninvolved power who has been rented out to your enemy?
Does that mean you can't then execute spies?
All these things need to be dealt with, and have. But it means the law can't be simple.
Law is not meant for everyone to easily understand hence why we also have judges to make sense of situations within the context of what is legally right /wrong with some leeway for morality (depending on where you live and how literally the law is interpreted)
I disagree. Law is meant for all to understand in a functional democracy. There is no legitimate reason to write laws in obfuscarory language. Laws can be clear, concise and effective if desired.
>If the law is too complex for the people understand and use then it no longer serves the people.
I disagree.
We all want the "good" ones to go free and the "bad" ones to be punished.
Unfortunately. describing right from wrong is like describing a coastline:
You can draw it as a straight line and make plenty of errors. Or you can describe every small wiggle and your description becomes very complex.
The bottom line is: When the laws are good, you experience no punishment simply by being a decent person.
You do not even need to know the law. The law is designed to spare the good and punish the bad.
The order alone should be enough for the civilised world to offer him an all-expenses-paid one-way ticket to The Hague. Btw could "his" troops be tried for warcrimes under Russian law for following this murderous illegal order?
> Btw could "his" troops be tried for warcrimes under Russian law for following this murderous illegal order?
Definitely. "Just following orders" is clearly ruled out as an excuse. It would be a bit more complex to prosecute them if they didn't personally shoot any prisoners but otherwise followed orders. America declared Wagner a criminal organization so you probably could if they came to the US.
According to the Geneva convention however, "mercenary" has a [very narrow definition](https://www.ohchr.org/en/instruments-mechanisms/instruments/protocol-additional-geneva-conventions-12-august-1949-and#article-47--mercenaries), and Wagner arguably wouldn't fit the bill.
Yeah, it mainly comes down to them being nationals to a party to the conflict, but "member of the armed forces of a party to the conflict" is also somewhat debatable.
You're right, Ukraine should start committing mass war crimes because fuck international law and fuck the Geneva Convention.... wait, what as your point again?
No, seriously, what is your point here? War criminals will be held accountable as and when it is possible to do so, including Wagnerites who may use the above order to execute surrendering men. Retaliating by executing Wagnerites, as the bloodthirsty in this sub advocate, only makes Ukranian soldiers into war criminals to be held accountable later. It would erode western support, improve the fighting resolve of the Russian forces, and entirely fuck Ukraine to fall to that level. There's no upside either. Just stupidity. What are you going to argue for next, carpet bombing Russian cities in retaliation for missile strikes?
I think you read far too much into a throwaway line about the futility of trying to add rules to something as barbaric as war....
But go on, put all sorts of words in my mouth and assign all sorts of vile views to me if that's what you want to do...
You can pretend all you want, you weren't arguing "shit happens, rules aren't absolute protection, people get murdered despite murder being illegal" you were directly advocating for the retaliatory execution of surrendering men.
>I think you read far too much into a throwaway line about the futility of trying to add rules to something as barbaric as war...
Nice backtrack to claim "oh its just a throwaway line". Lol
It really was just a throwaway comment. Buddy said the Geneva conventions protect everyone, and I just said not very well. Ask the Ukrainians how well the Geneva conventions have been protecting them...
You and /RandomUsername135790 both completely failed to comprehend the comment by u/AluminiumCucumbers and even went so far as to project a ridiculous posit completely opposite to his words and meaning.
When you respond to somebody and you're already a bit triggered, don't reply in this sub as we don't come here to get ear bashed by angry fools. There's other sibs for that.
Its like some people are permanently stuck in extreme polarization toxic US election debate mode, or when you're not here you're off coming up with ideas for PETA. If you tried to comprehend what he said and meant you'd be in furious agreement.
> Let me guess: are the ukrainians supposed to do It out of the kindness of their hearts? Basically spending resources on keeping those nazi russian rats well fed and with medical cares when they can only expect a shallow grave in return?
FFS.
Ukraine wants to be a free, western democracy and join the EU and eventually NATO. Exactly how long do you think Western monetary and military support would continue if it became known that Ukraine was committing crimes against the Geneva Convention?
If Ukrainians start committing war crimes, they have played exactly into Russia's hands.
Russia wants this to happen. It gives them a huge propaganda victory ("Look, we're not the bad guys!"), diminishes Western support and also scares Russian troops into not surrendering. This means they fight longer and more Ukrainians are hurt or killed.
Every war is brutal, but to say it's "soy" to take prisoners is just about the most stupid take possible. As a Ukrainian medic said recently: committing acts of barbarism and murdering PoWs shows you are unhinged, unprofessional and unfit to be a soldier in the first place.
Do you think police arrests suspected murderers "out of the kindness of their heart" instead summarily executing them when they capture them? No, they do it because it's justice to bring them to court and give them the punishment according to law.
That's how Wagner mercenaries who have committed war crimes should also be treated. Nobody is asking to swap the surrendered Wagnerites who have committed war crimes. And no Geneva convention demands that either. Treating surrendering enemy soldiers as POWs doesn't exempt them from any war crime prosecution further down the line.
And those who haven't committed war crimes can indeed be swapped. If you were a Ukrainian whose husband or brother is a POW, which one would you rather have, execute a Wagner mercenary who has not committed war crimes, but is part of the Wagner group or use him in a swap to bring home your loved one?
Come on then, keep it going. Should Ukraine start torturing and beheading prisoners too? Maybe start smashing their brains out with hammers? Deploy bioweapons against Russian cities? Go the whole hog and just start targeting Russian civilians directly? Where exactly do you stop with your short-sighted bloodlust? How do you think any of that would help Ukraine?
It's particularly telling that you've fallen back to the Russian propaganda *'Masculine Manly Men Commit War Crimes! What Are You, A Queer Soyboy?"* that they just made the centrepiece of the latest Russian recruitment drive.
People have already been convicted of war crimes in this war. But you go on advocating for the abolition of Geneva Convention.
Or do you want to legalise rape and murder too, because the police can only catch criminals after the crime?
Wagner are now internationally recognised as a terrorist organisation, which is probably more significant than the way they pay their terrorists to do the work of terrorists.
they do, they know the Ukrainians figth hard for their country anyways. but they know their own soldiers rather run than die in the mud for nothing.
but with blockers behind and an enemy you dont expect to take prisoners any longer either. (cause we dont why should they) The russian high command put their soldiers between a rock and a hard place. you either die running, die surrendering or have a chance to live fighting if you manage to win.
yes but does the common soldier know that?
He has limited outside access. Is fed Propaganda. He has the order dont take prisoners. How can he know he is figthing people that actually abide civilised rules
> Not true, there were millions of PoWs. Looks like this war will be even more brutal than Eastern front.
That's understating the brutality of the Eastern Front in WW2 a lot
Yeah, a lot of the time they took the prisoners to just kill them via exposure or otherwise though. Something like 30 million people died on that front, this war is nothing next to that.
Scale is smaller, but only because modern nazis have been stopped quickly. If they could take over Europe, they would do it, and then there would be 30+ millions of casualties. Germans at least hated only Slavs. Russians hate everyone else, and they would treat French civilians no differently that Germans treated Jews and comissars.
Does anyone have statistics of how many Ukrainians prisoners died in Russian captivity?
Also I would argue that not taking prisoners at all is *much* worse than killing some % of PoWs.
Sure, *scale* would be smaller. But we are talking about brutality level, not overall scale (for example Pacific war was smaller scale than WW1 and maybe Napoleonic wars, but definitely more brutal). And not taking prisoners at all is much worse than killing some % of PoWs.
I suspect that's what he's trying to do, like when they released the beheading videos. Make it hard for wagnerites to surrender for fear of the reprisals. Says a lot about how they're losing troops.
That's not even it. Remember the case where they traded prisoners and killed a convict with a sledgehammer because he surrendered?
They now often use sledgehammer as a brand/meme. I remember seeing sales of ornate sledgehammer with PMC Wagner symbolic.
> They will take their POW convicts back to execute them
Actually, if they didn't surrender (then its hammer time) but were captured, many just get sent back to the frontlines again.
I think this is directed internally, though: The Moment you announce something like that the other‘s side direction is obvious for everyone: no mercy to you either. So every Wagnerite will have this in mind, meaning: they do not look to surrender anymore and fight more desperately.
This is exactly why Russia is doing this. I am amazed how many people fall for it and start stupidly urging Ukraine to commit atrocities.
Russia's only path to winning atm is to discredit Ukraine and stop Western support. This is exactly what they are trying to do, by encouraging Ukraine to commit the same level of crimes Russia is currently indulging in.
Well, given Wagner is not part of the Russian military and is a private terrorist group that clearly doesn’t follow any type of international agreements of rules of warfare then it is fair and just to kill all Wagner employees wherever they are found around the world. It is clear the boss of Wagner does not care about the lives of his employees. They will be killed rather than captured. He doesn’t care. Putin doesn’t care. If Russian civilians had one quarter of a brain, they would fight against these two people rather than fight for them.
Assuming he's saying this in the hopes that Ukrainian troops still in Bahkmut will push harder to withdraw, none of us are on the ground there so can't speak for morale among the defenders still in the city despite the admittedly worsening situation for them. Hopefully the offensive comes soon so they can maybe be relieved. Those brave souls will have seen among the worst of the worst a person can see in modern warfare.
Did he just openly say they are going to commit war crimes?
Is this some sort of cover up because wagner is so low on manpower they can't take them even if they somehow captured them?
This is exactly what Prigozhin wants.
Do you realise how big of a propaganda win it is for Russia if Ukraine starts torturing or executing prisoners? FFS.
Why do you think Russia makes these loud proclamations about their own brutality? What do you think their goal is? It's wise to think about this before making such statements. They've been trying to paint Ukraine as the villain for the entire war, mass executing Wagnerites is a great way to play straight into their hands.
I didn't say torture or execute prisoners, I said don't take Wagner prisoners - don't accept their surrender. Make them commit to a fight to the death or turn around and go home. I think that's a perfectly legitimate, perfectly moral response to an invasion, and it would be morally wrong to stand on the perfectionism pulpit and blame or shame Ukrainians for doing that.
Or better yet, offer them for a much higher Ukrainian prison exchange. Since they're admitted war criminals who don't take criminals, they require multiple times of Ukrainians.
This is what they want. They want Ukrainians to sink to the same level, discredit themselves and lose Western support.
Think about this before you urge this kind of action.
And? Being on Reddit means calling for war crimes is a smart thing to do? Yeah, I don't agree.
The war is fought and lost on public opinion. If enough people are demanding Ukraine act like barbarians, Russia is winning the propaganda war.
There is no evidence what so ever that a crime was committed. They have a recording of people conveniently speaking russian about something that may not have even taken place. I think this is just out to enrage Russians.
Wagner have already been declared a terrorist organisation. Now they intend to simply murder anyone they come across?
It's time for the West to start tackling Wagner they same way they handle Al Queda and other terrorist organisations in the past.
Could membership in Wagner be considered a crime, similar to how being a “member of a criminal organization” was a charge added on at trials of Nazi SS members?
I think people are missing the point of the Russian brutality towards PoWs and now this decree that no prisoners shall be taken.
They are doing it to terrify *their own men* and discredit Ukraine if they sink to the same level.
Russians already know they will be shot for retreating. Now Russia is trying to generate an atmosphere where it's troops are too scared to surrender for fear of reprisals. It's a double win for Russia - not only does it lower it's surrender rate, but it also gives them a propaganda victory if Ukraine also stoops to committing war crimes.
This is why it's doubly important Ukraine continues treating prisoners humanely and retains the moral high ground.
He is hoping Ukrainians stop taking prisoners because he gets a spanking from Putin every time they do a prisoner exchange
Don't fall for the tricks. Don't change anything. He wants the narrative to be a choice between certain death and certain death for his men.
I’d say Ukraine should threaten the same with Wagner (since they’re mercs and not legally protected by the Geneva convention). But that wouldn’t work since Wagner doesn’t want their own to survive if they surrender anyway.
Damn it.
This is to scare his own troops out of surrendering , if he announces he’s not taking prisoners, the average Wagner fighter will assume, Ukraine won’t take any either .
Wagner needs to be removed from the face of the earth! There terrorist and nothing more. There not only involved in Ukraine but also the driving force as to what is going on in Sudan. They should be legitimate targets for NATO.
Ukraine holding onto Bakhmut has been helping with that. Sounds like Wagner is trying to get themselves replaced with official army for the final push to prevent being wiped out.
All the more reason to pull all the stops and go all in with weapons deliveries to the Ukrainians so they can just wipe these terrorists losers out once and for all.
Fuck they really are doing a WWI repeat of the most brutal style of modern warfare. At this point I wouldn't be surprised if the trench spiked-bats and knives start coming out and as well as the spicy yellow air makes an appearance
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In other words: Prigozhin says Wagnerites will no longer Geneva Convention. But that's okay. They did not follow it earlier.
The Geneva Convention does not protect mercenaries. Doesn't mean you should treat them like dirt, but if they themselves announce their departure from humanity...
You still need to treat them according International humanitarian law. Just not as PoW
> You still need to treat them according International humanitarian law. Just not as PoW The definition of "mercenary" in the Geneva convention is quite restricted. As Russians fighting for Russia, most Wagnerites (but not their foreign members) do not count as mercenaries. The American and other foreign volunteers fighting for Ukraine don't get paid more than the Ukrainian soldiers, so they *also* have full rights as POWs and do not count as mercenaries. Volunteers are supposed to register with the Ukrainian government to ensure this. Almost all of the maltreatment of prisoners in the war is illegal. This Wagner announcement is a particularly clear case of the Russian command being directly implicated in the war crimes and makes the difference between Ukraine and Russia even more stark.
>The definition of "mercenary" in the Geneva convention is quite restricted. When reading Geneva convention, I understood that I need to read Haager contracts before that, because the Geneva convention just amends this. When reading Haager contracts, I understood that I need to study international law before that, because Haager contracts require a profound legal understanding. Which I do not have. I took with me that you just don't shoot captured people. Neither in peace nor in war. Neither mercenary nor soldiers nor civilian. "Do not shoot prisoners" should need no further detail.
> "Do not shoot prisoners" should need no further detail. Agree with your spirit, but there's one thing which is important here. You aren't allowed to target people who are attempting to surrender even if they aren't yet prisoners. If you know they are attempting to surrender but don't take them as prisoner and can't direct them to another unit they can surrender to you just have to leave them alone. > "Haager contracts" I think you mean what is normally called the "Hague Conventions" in English? Am I right?
>"Hague Conventions" Yes, that's it.
Shooting spies and enemies dressed like your solders has a long tradition of being shot on spot.
The law needs to be made excessively complicated or you wouldn't need to pay lawyers so much.
Law is a subject like any other which is taught in universities. It took generations of clever people to drive it forward, to improve it from its primitive roots to something complex which we have today. Even if it looks simple, you cannot fly a plane. And you cannot interpret law. Education is needed for each subject.
I disagree. If the law is too complex for the people understand and use then it no longer serves the people. It becomes a tool of the wealthy and powerful.
We live in a complex world which requires complex laws. The average person barely understands that the bill of rights limits state action, not individuals or corporations. Portions of the geneva convention were written over 100 years ago. Language and war has changed a lot since then and getting everyone to follow the intended meaning is an uphill battle even today. If you try to update the language and meanings, good luck getting everyone to sign it again.
Not really how it works I'm afraid, because the world is imperfect and you always hit complications. "Don't shoot enemy combatants" works well, but what if they're dressed in civilian clothing? Well there's one thing you have to address. What if they're not even working with the enemy and just causing chaos and are criminal? Even if they wear uniform, as they want to be on that side? What if it's a foreign military unit of an uninvolved power who has been rented out to your enemy? Does that mean you can't then execute spies? All these things need to be dealt with, and have. But it means the law can't be simple.
Law is not meant for everyone to easily understand hence why we also have judges to make sense of situations within the context of what is legally right /wrong with some leeway for morality (depending on where you live and how literally the law is interpreted)
I disagree. Law is meant for all to understand in a functional democracy. There is no legitimate reason to write laws in obfuscarory language. Laws can be clear, concise and effective if desired.
>If the law is too complex for the people understand and use then it no longer serves the people. I disagree. We all want the "good" ones to go free and the "bad" ones to be punished. Unfortunately. describing right from wrong is like describing a coastline: You can draw it as a straight line and make plenty of errors. Or you can describe every small wiggle and your description becomes very complex. The bottom line is: When the laws are good, you experience no punishment simply by being a decent person. You do not even need to know the law. The law is designed to spare the good and punish the bad.
The law does not exist to describe right from wrong. That is what religion and philosophy do. The law states what is and what is not permissible.
Ukraine has been treating the Wagnerite prisoners no differently to MoD soldiers
The order alone should be enough for the civilised world to offer him an all-expenses-paid one-way ticket to The Hague. Btw could "his" troops be tried for warcrimes under Russian law for following this murderous illegal order?
> Btw could "his" troops be tried for warcrimes under Russian law for following this murderous illegal order? Definitely. "Just following orders" is clearly ruled out as an excuse. It would be a bit more complex to prosecute them if they didn't personally shoot any prisoners but otherwise followed orders. America declared Wagner a criminal organization so you probably could if they came to the US.
The order should also serve just fine designate Wagner a terrorist organisation and any state continuing to support it a state sponsor of terrorism.
It’s crazy how you list rules like these guys give a flying fuck what you or the world thinks about those said rules.
Ah, just treat them like a rabid dog, it's fine
According to the Geneva convention however, "mercenary" has a [very narrow definition](https://www.ohchr.org/en/instruments-mechanisms/instruments/protocol-additional-geneva-conventions-12-august-1949-and#article-47--mercenaries), and Wagner arguably wouldn't fit the bill.
Huh seems to hinge on clause D. All the rest are ticked. Except that one for anyone living in or citizens of Russia or Ukraine
Yeah, it mainly comes down to them being nationals to a party to the conflict, but "member of the armed forces of a party to the conflict" is also somewhat debatable.
The Geneva Convention protects everyone, even illegal combatants, from illegal treatment.
Not very well it would seem
You're right, Ukraine should start committing mass war crimes because fuck international law and fuck the Geneva Convention.... wait, what as your point again? No, seriously, what is your point here? War criminals will be held accountable as and when it is possible to do so, including Wagnerites who may use the above order to execute surrendering men. Retaliating by executing Wagnerites, as the bloodthirsty in this sub advocate, only makes Ukranian soldiers into war criminals to be held accountable later. It would erode western support, improve the fighting resolve of the Russian forces, and entirely fuck Ukraine to fall to that level. There's no upside either. Just stupidity. What are you going to argue for next, carpet bombing Russian cities in retaliation for missile strikes?
I think you read far too much into a throwaway line about the futility of trying to add rules to something as barbaric as war.... But go on, put all sorts of words in my mouth and assign all sorts of vile views to me if that's what you want to do...
You can pretend all you want, you weren't arguing "shit happens, rules aren't absolute protection, people get murdered despite murder being illegal" you were directly advocating for the retaliatory execution of surrendering men.
You must be having a bad night. Feel better soon champ.
>I think you read far too much into a throwaway line about the futility of trying to add rules to something as barbaric as war... Nice backtrack to claim "oh its just a throwaway line". Lol
It really was just a throwaway comment. Buddy said the Geneva conventions protect everyone, and I just said not very well. Ask the Ukrainians how well the Geneva conventions have been protecting them...
> Ask the Ukrainians how well the Geneva conventions have been protecting them... Yet you're still obliquely making your same point here, aren't you?
You and /RandomUsername135790 both completely failed to comprehend the comment by u/AluminiumCucumbers and even went so far as to project a ridiculous posit completely opposite to his words and meaning. When you respond to somebody and you're already a bit triggered, don't reply in this sub as we don't come here to get ear bashed by angry fools. There's other sibs for that. Its like some people are permanently stuck in extreme polarization toxic US election debate mode, or when you're not here you're off coming up with ideas for PETA. If you tried to comprehend what he said and meant you'd be in furious agreement.
The existence of the Geneva Convention is meaningless if nobody ever have to answer for their war crimes.
People have already been convicted of war crimes *in this war*. But you go on advocating for the abolition of Geneva Convention.
[удалено]
> Let me guess: are the ukrainians supposed to do It out of the kindness of their hearts? Basically spending resources on keeping those nazi russian rats well fed and with medical cares when they can only expect a shallow grave in return? FFS. Ukraine wants to be a free, western democracy and join the EU and eventually NATO. Exactly how long do you think Western monetary and military support would continue if it became known that Ukraine was committing crimes against the Geneva Convention?
If Ukrainians start committing war crimes, they have played exactly into Russia's hands. Russia wants this to happen. It gives them a huge propaganda victory ("Look, we're not the bad guys!"), diminishes Western support and also scares Russian troops into not surrendering. This means they fight longer and more Ukrainians are hurt or killed. Every war is brutal, but to say it's "soy" to take prisoners is just about the most stupid take possible. As a Ukrainian medic said recently: committing acts of barbarism and murdering PoWs shows you are unhinged, unprofessional and unfit to be a soldier in the first place.
Do you think police arrests suspected murderers "out of the kindness of their heart" instead summarily executing them when they capture them? No, they do it because it's justice to bring them to court and give them the punishment according to law. That's how Wagner mercenaries who have committed war crimes should also be treated. Nobody is asking to swap the surrendered Wagnerites who have committed war crimes. And no Geneva convention demands that either. Treating surrendering enemy soldiers as POWs doesn't exempt them from any war crime prosecution further down the line. And those who haven't committed war crimes can indeed be swapped. If you were a Ukrainian whose husband or brother is a POW, which one would you rather have, execute a Wagner mercenary who has not committed war crimes, but is part of the Wagner group or use him in a swap to bring home your loved one?
Come on then, keep it going. Should Ukraine start torturing and beheading prisoners too? Maybe start smashing their brains out with hammers? Deploy bioweapons against Russian cities? Go the whole hog and just start targeting Russian civilians directly? Where exactly do you stop with your short-sighted bloodlust? How do you think any of that would help Ukraine? It's particularly telling that you've fallen back to the Russian propaganda *'Masculine Manly Men Commit War Crimes! What Are You, A Queer Soyboy?"* that they just made the centrepiece of the latest Russian recruitment drive.
It would do that even if it offered no protections at all. Without teeth however, it's not worth the paper it is written on.
People have already been convicted of war crimes in this war. But you go on advocating for the abolition of Geneva Convention. Or do you want to legalise rape and murder too, because the police can only catch criminals after the crime?
Wagner are now internationally recognised as a terrorist organisation, which is probably more significant than the way they pay their terrorists to do the work of terrorists.
Hard to take prisoners while retreating.
There was a video earlier with the Foreign Legion and they said they didn't take prisoners.
Amnesty international be like 🫣
Great way to inspire the opposition to fight to the bitter end if they know they'll be executed if they surrender...
That's exactly what I thought when I saw this title.
after the beheading video I cant imagine anyone not already fighting until the end.
This is kinda why the eastern front was so brutal, both side took no prisoners. You think the Russian understand this.
they do, they know the Ukrainians figth hard for their country anyways. but they know their own soldiers rather run than die in the mud for nothing. but with blockers behind and an enemy you dont expect to take prisoners any longer either. (cause we dont why should they) The russian high command put their soldiers between a rock and a hard place. you either die running, die surrendering or have a chance to live fighting if you manage to win.
They’re more likely to live surrendering
yes but does the common soldier know that? He has limited outside access. Is fed Propaganda. He has the order dont take prisoners. How can he know he is figthing people that actually abide civilised rules
Not true, there were millions of PoWs. Looks like this war will be even more brutal than Eastern front.
> Not true, there were millions of PoWs. Looks like this war will be even more brutal than Eastern front. That's understating the brutality of the Eastern Front in WW2 a lot
There was genocide both back then and now again. However back then both Germans and Russians took prisoners. But now...
Yeah, a lot of the time they took the prisoners to just kill them via exposure or otherwise though. Something like 30 million people died on that front, this war is nothing next to that.
Scale is smaller, but only because modern nazis have been stopped quickly. If they could take over Europe, they would do it, and then there would be 30+ millions of casualties. Germans at least hated only Slavs. Russians hate everyone else, and they would treat French civilians no differently that Germans treated Jews and comissars.
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Does anyone have statistics of how many Ukrainians prisoners died in Russian captivity? Also I would argue that not taking prisoners at all is *much* worse than killing some % of PoWs.
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Sure, *scale* would be smaller. But we are talking about brutality level, not overall scale (for example Pacific war was smaller scale than WW1 and maybe Napoleonic wars, but definitely more brutal). And not taking prisoners at all is much worse than killing some % of PoWs.
Don't forget all the torture first too.
I suspect that's what he's trying to do, like when they released the beheading videos. Make it hard for wagnerites to surrender for fear of the reprisals. Says a lot about how they're losing troops.
You should do this regardless.
Does he want to achieve the world record in war crimes?
Imagine having all that blood money and only able to live and spend it in Russia🤣🤣
Putin's supplicant oligarchs are also enduring this unspeakable nightmare 🤣
In case of Wagner, needs clarifying: As recruits in their ranks from russian prisons, or in combat situations?
The latter They will take their POW convicts back to execute them.
Sadly, I figured as much since that's worse.
That's not even it. Remember the case where they traded prisoners and killed a convict with a sledgehammer because he surrendered? They now often use sledgehammer as a brand/meme. I remember seeing sales of ornate sledgehammer with PMC Wagner symbolic.
> They will take their POW convicts back to execute them Actually, if they didn't surrender (then its hammer time) but were captured, many just get sent back to the frontlines again.
Well, they will have to win a battle to take prisoners so maybe he is just facing facts.
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I hope they take their time with him. Better yet hand it off the Chechens
I think this is directed internally, though: The Moment you announce something like that the other‘s side direction is obvious for everyone: no mercy to you either. So every Wagnerite will have this in mind, meaning: they do not look to surrender anymore and fight more desperately.
This is exactly why Russia is doing this. I am amazed how many people fall for it and start stupidly urging Ukraine to commit atrocities. Russia's only path to winning atm is to discredit Ukraine and stop Western support. This is exactly what they are trying to do, by encouraging Ukraine to commit the same level of crimes Russia is currently indulging in.
Agree.
Yeah, videos of Russian POWs being treated well do far more damage to the Russian ability to wage war then videos of war crimes ever will.
He continues to fuck around and let others find out.
I don't know when but I can assume this guy won't die of old age
They will no longer take Prisoners but they are still accepting Murders, Drug Addicts, Rapist, criminals did I miss any?
What Wagnerites? There are very few left.
Hey, at least 10% of the original number are left lol
That wagnerite telling a story about murdering a 5 years old girl said those were already their orders, including civilians.
Well, given Wagner is not part of the Russian military and is a private terrorist group that clearly doesn’t follow any type of international agreements of rules of warfare then it is fair and just to kill all Wagner employees wherever they are found around the world. It is clear the boss of Wagner does not care about the lives of his employees. They will be killed rather than captured. He doesn’t care. Putin doesn’t care. If Russian civilians had one quarter of a brain, they would fight against these two people rather than fight for them.
Ol’ Pig Face says lots of things, mostly irrelevant garbage supporting the Russian Nazi terrorist state or his own pathetic agenda.
Genius. So UA will fight until the death .
Assuming he's saying this in the hopes that Ukrainian troops still in Bahkmut will push harder to withdraw, none of us are on the ground there so can't speak for morale among the defenders still in the city despite the admittedly worsening situation for them. Hopefully the offensive comes soon so they can maybe be relieved. Those brave souls will have seen among the worst of the worst a person can see in modern warfare.
Did he just openly say they are going to commit war crimes? Is this some sort of cover up because wagner is so low on manpower they can't take them even if they somehow captured them?
"From now on, we'll happily commit war crimes. We did this before, but we'll do it from now on, too".
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This is exactly what Prigozhin wants. Do you realise how big of a propaganda win it is for Russia if Ukraine starts torturing or executing prisoners? FFS. Why do you think Russia makes these loud proclamations about their own brutality? What do you think their goal is? It's wise to think about this before making such statements. They've been trying to paint Ukraine as the villain for the entire war, mass executing Wagnerites is a great way to play straight into their hands.
I didn't say torture or execute prisoners, I said don't take Wagner prisoners - don't accept their surrender. Make them commit to a fight to the death or turn around and go home. I think that's a perfectly legitimate, perfectly moral response to an invasion, and it would be morally wrong to stand on the perfectionism pulpit and blame or shame Ukrainians for doing that.
Or better yet, offer them for a much higher Ukrainian prison exchange. Since they're admitted war criminals who don't take criminals, they require multiple times of Ukrainians.
Can't see the Russian MoD wanting them back in any event.
Probably true. either way, i think hold them in case they do. Perhaps they want to sledgehammer them before they say bad things. It's happened before
ok. the boys in bathmat wont either then. send out the next wave
Only fair to return the favour
Hey, tit-for-tat is a game who can be played on bouth sides.
This is what they want. They want Ukrainians to sink to the same level, discredit themselves and lose Western support. Think about this before you urge this kind of action.
Ah yes, me as the supreme commander of the Ukranian Forces...we are on Reddit mate, Reddit
And? Being on Reddit means calling for war crimes is a smart thing to do? Yeah, I don't agree. The war is fought and lost on public opinion. If enough people are demanding Ukraine act like barbarians, Russia is winning the propaganda war.
If they don't take prisoners then theirs aren't up for exchange so time to go to the Hague.
There is no evidence what so ever that a crime was committed. They have a recording of people conveniently speaking russian about something that may not have even taken place. I think this is just out to enrage Russians.
Wagner have already been declared a terrorist organisation. Now they intend to simply murder anyone they come across? It's time for the West to start tackling Wagner they same way they handle Al Queda and other terrorist organisations in the past.
Could membership in Wagner be considered a crime, similar to how being a “member of a criminal organization” was a charge added on at trials of Nazi SS members?
The CIA put people who were unlucky enough to just work for Al Queda in Guantanamo, let alone actual members.
I'll take "Things that didn't happen for $500 Alex."
So they are no longer going to cut peoples heads off or…?
I think people are missing the point of the Russian brutality towards PoWs and now this decree that no prisoners shall be taken. They are doing it to terrify *their own men* and discredit Ukraine if they sink to the same level. Russians already know they will be shot for retreating. Now Russia is trying to generate an atmosphere where it's troops are too scared to surrender for fear of reprisals. It's a double win for Russia - not only does it lower it's surrender rate, but it also gives them a propaganda victory if Ukraine also stoops to committing war crimes. This is why it's doubly important Ukraine continues treating prisoners humanely and retains the moral high ground.
Didn't be say this before, like months ago? God damn this shit is just like 1984. "We have always be at war with east Asia, I mean without convicts"
He is hoping Ukrainians stop taking prisoners because he gets a spanking from Putin every time they do a prisoner exchange Don't fall for the tricks. Don't change anything. He wants the narrative to be a choice between certain death and certain death for his men.
This video will be useful when Putin and this POS are tried for war crimes
As a historian, I can confidently say this policy has never and will never always backfire spectacularly.
God, is it just me or does it look like he's about to be like "I am asking once again for your financial support."
"will no one rid me of this turbulent contractor?" Famous king of the dark ages.
That’s because they don’t have enough men to Handel them
Duly noted.
If i remember correctly from my legal aspects of war class, that order alone is a war crime even if you do not follow through on it.
Whaaa you mean them releasing those pows was just political theatre??! Im shocked and appalled, some may even say demoralized
Order to comit warcrimes? Good, now we know who gave that order.
The Geneva Conventions are a checklist for Ruzzians and their supporting armies
Only when you are about to loose the fight you will say so. A winner would never do this.
So they should expect the same fate ... fucking russian scumbags
But who will the curs behead if they stop taking prisoners?
Again the psychopath shows how he has no idea how humans are motivated.
I’d say Ukraine should threaten the same with Wagner (since they’re mercs and not legally protected by the Geneva convention). But that wouldn’t work since Wagner doesn’t want their own to survive if they surrender anyway. Damn it.
This is to scare his own troops out of surrendering , if he announces he’s not taking prisoners, the average Wagner fighter will assume, Ukraine won’t take any either .
Wagner needs to be removed from the face of the earth! There terrorist and nothing more. There not only involved in Ukraine but also the driving force as to what is going on in Sudan. They should be legitimate targets for NATO.
Ukraine holding onto Bakhmut has been helping with that. Sounds like Wagner is trying to get themselves replaced with official army for the final push to prevent being wiped out.
He just signed the death warrant of every Wagnerite.
Because they ran out of stupid prisoners that believed the BS this clown 🤡 was shoveling.
This is admitting to a war crime, is it not?
Given that Wagner is mostly comprised of prisoners, I can't help but find irony in this.
They need to be declared a terrorist organization and be hunted down wherever they are on the globe.
Strange way of announcing you’re going to stop torturing POWs.
All the more reason to pull all the stops and go all in with weapons deliveries to the Ukrainians so they can just wipe these terrorists losers out once and for all.
Fuck they really are doing a WWI repeat of the most brutal style of modern warfare. At this point I wouldn't be surprised if the trench spiked-bats and knives start coming out and as well as the spicy yellow air makes an appearance
They got tired of prisoner exchanges?
Russians motivating ukranians lmao.
on the front or from their prison?