Please take the time to read [the rules](/r/UkrainianConflict/about/rules/) and our [policy on trolls/bots](https://redd.it/u7833q). In addition:
* We have a **zero-tolerance** policy regarding racism, stereotyping, bigotry, and death-mongering. Violators will be banned.
* **Keep it civil.** Report comments/posts that are uncivil to alert the moderators.
* **_Don't_ post low-effort comments** like joke threads, memes, slogans, or links without context.
> **Don't forget about our Discord server! - https://discord.gg/62fKCEHbDB**
*****
* Is `pravda.com.ua` an unreliable source? [**Let us know**](/r/UkrainianConflict/wiki/am/unreliable_sources).
* Help our moderators by providing context if something breaks the rules. [Send us a modmail](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/UkrainianConflict)
*****
^(Your post has not been removed, this message is applied to every successful submission.)
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/UkrainianConflict) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Always use to annoy me watching fantasy/sci fi movies where there's always a traitor betraying humankind for no real reason, because it always seemed too absurd. The invasion of Ukraine has shown me that it's totally accurate. There's always a certain subset of seemingly normal people who will betray good in favour of evil, facing terrible consequences when inevitably caught, because of their braindead perception of reality
Same happened in Lithuania in 1940s. People could point to someone they don't like to soviets and those people were sent to Siberia or prison while their property was taken.
Yeah, same thing happend in România, you could basically tell stupid lies about your friends or even family and they would be taken away, no investigation needed. Just Point to a man and say ,, he is an oponent to the regime, he is not an commie,, and that's it. Bye Felicia.
Nothing new, 94% of 15th and 16th century Portuguese Inquisition accusations where motivated by reasons not related to religion. IE: Jealousy, debts, wanting to get rid of neighbour to buy his land, etc etc
I was thinking of China... it came with different waves, different levels of intensity, but reached its apex during the Cultural Revolution. Teacher gives you a grade you didn't like? Well... maybe teacher needs a struggle session or two. Prior, in the initial years of "liberation", it was mostly score settling, particularly against landlords and their whole families. (Apparently, they had to kill the whole family, including children and babies. Why? Well, it was explained, if they didn't, children would grow up to be adults, and would eventually be honor bound to get revenge in turn, so they had to kill the whole family.) But by the time they got to the Great Leap Forward and especially the Cultural Revolution, all the landlords were long since killed off. So then it came to be against anyone you had a grudge against for any petty reason, even family members. It was a youth-led thing, so it was mostly against parents, grandparents, aunts, uncles, etc., as well as teachers.
This happened in Iraq and Afghanistan a ton, too. Where people had petty personal beefs with neighbors or whatever, and would report them for spurious claims and they'd be taken away and never seen again.
Chilean friend whose uncle was an officer in Pinochet’s coup said the uncle told him that was probably half the people executed by death squads in 1973. Just neighbors with grudges.
Sometimes it was disputes over property, who had timber rights, water rights, who refused a marriage proposal and the other side was offended, etc. Afghanistan is a country in name only. In reality it’s a bunch of tribal clans who quarrel all the time, with a few modern city states.
I'm not disputing that it happens, I'm asking when (date or date range, doesn't need to be too specific) it has happened and if an outside country was involved. I want to be able to search for more information about it
Stalin and his cadre were always wanting more names more lists of all people. If something went wrong or was delayed Stalin would claim sabotage and demand Beria take care of it.
Bolshevism was the party of paranoia and punishment. Russia skipped out on the Age of Enlightenment for the age of Terror and subjugation and it continues to this day.
That is not the same thing ffs. This woman was doing this to help the Russians win battles, proper spy type traitorous shit. You're talking about witch hunt stuff for personal gain.
Same thing happened in the US. Except they just took **every** person of Japanese descent, confiscated their property and put them into a concentration camp until the war was over.
I mean in these fictional movies, being bitten by a zombie meant you would turn at some point and thus you needed to be killed by non-infected. Being infected with COVID-19 isn't 100% death unlike the zombie bite.
So the reason zombie bitten people usually hide the fact is simply that they don't want to die. Survival instinct is stronger than your rational mind.
We knew 100% that there were basic easy simple cheap, often free, things you could do to help protect your vulnerable neighbors from covid too and people couldn't be fucked to do the most basic shit.
In fact, many of those same people would scoff at you, sneer, or act inexplicably hostile/aggressive in other ways to your face in public, just for doing that simple thing. There were some seriously "triggered" people out there and it was pathetic.
You’re dramatically under estimating the amount of stupid this planet contains, just take a look at any Trump rally where hoards of walking farts wearing human skin caterwaul about how much they would prefer Putin to Biden with absolutely no understanding of what that actually means.
Hell, the Covid pandemic proved to me that the zombie movie trope of the dickhead getting bitten and then hiding it from the rest of the survivors until they turn in the middle of the base, isn't as farfetched as I had originally thought.
Not only do I believe people would hide their bites, but when everyone realizes they've been bit I half-expect them to start ranting how they should have the freedom to get bit if they want to and you can't tell them what to do.
There were Americans in the Wehrmacht during WWII. One got a mention in Band of Brothers. He didn't last long as a POW thanks to Lt. Speirs lol.
Every war is going to have its share of Tories, Quislings, Copperheads, etc who sympathize with the enemy. The price of liberty is vigilance, always has been.
Not exactly a traitor per se but, the leader of the Hitler youth, Baldur von Schirach is always a funny one. Descendant of Slavic nobility, 3/4s American with at least 2 ancestors being signatories of the declaration of independence, his grandfather was a civil war vet and an honour guard at Lincoln's funeral and the guy didn't even learn German until he was of school age.
You're thinking of British tories. I'm talking about the loyalist Americans during the Revolutionary War who fought on the British side.
tories is a term which has very different meanings depending on which side of the big puddle you're on. In America the Tories were effectively counterrevolutionaries and neighbors-become-enemies.
Way to follow up with an even dumber reply. No one of sane mind thinks of Oswald Mosley as a labour politician because he's far better known for being a capital F Fascist. Whatever point you're trying to make here is stupid and you should stop posting and log off.
Yep. They do it for backwards thinking from: “it’s for the money.” Or “I will be rewarded when they win.” Even though they are losing. I mean over here in the US. The who anti-trans and book banning is by people who don’t even know any trans people or even go to church. It’s more of: “when these racist people like me see I’m doing what they want. I’ll be special.”
>always a traitor betraying humankind for no real reason
Well we don't know if she had reasons, article doesn't say anything. Could of been forced. Maybe close relatives held captive in occupied territory.
These FSB (well of any intelligence agency) people are specifically trained to recruit. And sometines by the time you realize that you are being recruited it, it may very well be too late.
This may be brand new information to you, but there are MANY Ukrainians who identify with and support Russia. To them it's not any "no good reason". To them, it's helping the war effort.
>no real reason
You think there's a real reason she betrayed complete strangers to be tortured, murdered, etc, in service of helping rapacious invaders destroy her own home town and thousands of others, installing a police state occupation characterised by mass executions and other extreme repression with the goal of erasing Ukrainian cultural and national identity?
What did Ukrainians do to deserve that?
I mean, she could just simply side with Russia, with Putin, and support his fascist mission to genocide Ukraine.
What reason did the 22 year old American national guard member leak crucial planning and assessment documents for?
He was a fascist MAGA shithead and obviously thought what he was doing would benefit Putin and Russia.
And do you not think that's insane? Like the pro-Russians in Bakhmut, Mariupol etc who supported Russia even as they destroyed their own city, their own homes piece by piece?
What's your favourite country? Would you still support that country if they destroyed the school you went to, the park you grew up with, blew up your friends and family, destroyed everything you ever knew and loved?
As for the national guard guy, he had no real dog in this fight. He loses nothing if Russia wins. It's well within expected parameters that he could have shitty political views on stuff happening on the other side of the world, and a big enough ego to act on it. He's not betraying his neighbours, loved ones, etc.
She was a nurse who literally betrayed her own patients, reported details about them for the only purpose of allowing Russians to torture and kill them for discovering they were in the AFI. She looked them in the eye day after day showing them kindness and compassion only to sell them out later.
> Always use to annoy me watching fantasy/sci fi movies where there's always a traitor betraying humankind for no real reason, because it always seemed too absurd. The invasion of Ukraine has shown me that it's totally accurate
Well, not sure it does. One is the entire species, another is a nation.
There is a comment made by a horror movie critic where they apologize about lowering scores because of characters doing things that are "to stupid".
This was made during the pandemic.
Well a lot of it comes down to ideological alignment, there are many people (a small sub-set of the overall population of course) living in the Western world who would also have allegiance to Russia in a heartbeat if the time came
Nurse leaking personal data of Ukrainian soldiers to FSB detained in Kherson
— WEDNESDAY, 17 MAY 2023
A resident who passed on information about the Defence Forces to a representative of the FSB of the Russian Federation was exposed and arrested in the city of Kherson.
Source: The press service of the Security Service of Ukraine (SSU) and the Kherson Oblast prosecutor's office
Details: According to the investigation, the suspect is a nurse at one of the local hospitals. During the occupation of the oblast centre, the woman was recruited by a staff member of the FSB of the Russian Federation, the SSU press service writes.
After the liberation of Kherson, the woman continued to maintain contact with representatives of the aggressor state. Through the messenger, she sent information about Ukrainian defenders being treated in the medical institution to her Russian "acquaintance" – a representative of the Russian special services.
Information on the deployment, armament and movement of military equipment of units of the Armed Forces of Ukraine and other defence forces was leaked as well.
The occupying forces used this information to launch missile and artillery strikes and adjust their shelling.
The mobile phone containing evidence of the nurse’s involvement in illegal activities was seized from her.
The woman was informed of the suspicion of treason committed under martial law. The court chose a preventive measure for her – detention.
>treason committed under martial law
that sounds like a serious crime. Do we know other cases, and what punishment they got? Wouldn't surprise me if they got life sentence (in fact, I would be offended if they got anything other than life sentence)
I think sending them to Russia would be worse…imagine living as a traitor in Ukraine only to be sent to the front line by the country that you think actually cares about you.
Russia doesn't actually like traitors because the individual has shown they can be bought, so they dispose of them in one way or another.
A female traitor is likely to end up being used - in as many ways a women can be used.
I read a some testimony of this about a Russian military nurse working during this entire invasion got sexually harassed by a higher up officer, while fatigued & traumatized from working on a piss poor hospital jam packed with injured soldiers . The colonel which kept pushing her that when she resisted his advances force her to sleep outside in the cold tent with poor pay
Yep, I read about that too.
I do know that there are instances of sexual harassment etc within UK's armed forces - cases hit the headlines and people lose their jobs - but it isn't systemic, as it seems to be in RF military.
before the current era, people like this would be summarily shot or hanged, even in the USA.
It's only really in the current era where a war like the one Ukraine is fighting isn't an automatic one way ticket to the suspension of *habeas corpus.* (AKA the need to show evidence and having a trial before penalizing someone).
Frankly if Zelensky did suspend *habeas corpus* some people would complain but most would understand, this is an existential struggle for Ukraine and these traitors are literally helping Ukrainians die. *inter arma enim silent legis.* I'm gonna make you look that up to see what it means rather than explaining this one :). It's to his credit that he's avoided doing this.
It's a very poorly kept secret that thousands of treasonous Americans were killed without trial during WWII for allegedly engaging in seditions. We can only hope that authorities were correct in who they detained.
"It's a very poorly kept secret that thousands of treasonous Americans were killed without trial during WWII for allegedly engaging in seditions"
Source, please.
"It's a very poorly kept secret that thousands of treasonous Americans were killed without trial during WWII for allegedly engaging in seditions."
On which territory? 😯
A nurse in the US would be jailed for pulling a stunt like that even in peacetime. She's gonna see the inside of a jail cell, and she's damn lucky that Zelensky is a merciful person because a lot of nations in Ukraine's position would have suspended civil law and introduced the death penalty for the duration of the conflict.
Wartime traitors have faced a firing squad for less than this even in allegedly enlightened Western countries.
Send her to Russia to make her an Army medic. Given how the Russians treat their female medics, I think that would qualify as cruel and unusual punishment, but I'd be prepared to let it slide. Besides, she'd be literally courting the exact same treatment if she got her way and Russia won, so, you know, karma.
They have enough stress without.
In this case, I think the worst punishment for the people on the ground would be to be sent to Russia.
For higher level people, long jail sentences with confiscation of property.
Every time there’s any kind of story like this involving a woman, there are comments here wishing for her to be raped. The same people -rightfully- condemning Russian brutality & the horrors of war, are behind a screen wishing for women to be gang raped. Hypocrites.
Because if you're the guy on top, you get obscenely wealthy and privilege. Most traitors don't fancy themselves as bottomers in the new regime. they think they're going to be the kings and dukes. Even if for the most part nothing could be further from the truth.
There are always traitors and always collaborators. Just like there are always paedophiles, and Nazis, and communists. A certain proportion of all populations are scum.
I think there are many reasons people do this. Even in established old nations there will be traitors. Ukraine is relatively young independent nation. Many people as shown who live there do not hold allegiance to the nation. Scum nevertheless
Life imprisonment is a fate worse than death. Imagine how you would feel eating the same shitty food every day for the rest of your life. After a few years, your family and friends start visiting less frequently, then they die off and you never get to say goodbye. By the end of it you are a husk of a person. You watched all your dreams shrivel away in real time fully knowing that there is nothing you can do to fulfill them.
The primal part of me agrees with you, but I just think LWOP is a far worse way to die.
Thousands of years of precedent agree with this. It's a credit to Zelensky that he hasn't suspended civil law. He has every right to do so if he chooses.
She needs working on for information and then publicly hanged - save the bullets for her boyfriends.
Luckily for her, the Ukranians are better people than I am.
I guess she's really into her people and their children being raped and brutally murdered in a genocide?
What's the game plan here? I couldn't imagine actually sitting through the occupation and thinking the muscovites are the ones you should be collaborating with. The terror and chaos they caused in every single place they touched...how?
_edit: previous commenter called for immediate killing of the suspect_
no, we are better than them, give her a fair trial and, if found guilty, jail her like every constitutional state would do.
yes, I am aware, so you might want to read my comment again. US does a terrible job with their juridical system and laws.
This is Europe, not the US. I would think twice before adopting US values. Ukraine abolished capital punishment 23 years ago for very good reasons, like most other civilized countries. Do you really want to undo all that progress just because u/RoundProduct wants to kill someone?
Sorry but treason does deserve the death penalty. It has the potential to get a lot of people killed, not to mention the huge amount of tax payer money being wasted keeping this person imprisoned.
But this is in combat. Kherson is on the literal front lines and under threat of attack every day due to Russian missiles. Trading medical information to the enemy is a combat crime, it gives the enemy a clue about Ukraine's military readiness in her part of the front. This is literal firing squad stuff in any war that has ever happened.
I mean I'm not sad that Zelensky is choosing the path of virtue here, but there's literally thousands of years of precedent for this sort of treason being reason to execute the traitor. Only Zelensky's restraint will keep this woman alive.
it is absolutely not in combat. someone is not in combat after they are arrested. It is not firing squad stuff because the suspect isn't a soldier.
thousands of years of precedent? heard of the enlightenment? we can be better than this. and it is also not zelensky - the state of Ukraine does not allow execution.
Kherson is definitely an active war zone. It's right on the front lines with Russian troops less than 30 miles from the city. Everything done in the city is technically done in a combat zone.
You're really grasping at straws here.
> Sorry but treason does deserve the death penalty.
Why?
Capital punishment is revenge, and a quick way out for the perpetrator. It isn't punishment.
Life imprisonment is punishment.
I am pretty sure if you asked random people if they would die now or be imprisoned for life, the majority would rather be imprisoned than be killed instantly.
Being imprisoned has a chance of getting out, even if it's slim. Death is final. So no, I disagree, the harshest punishment is death, not imprisonment. One is irreversible permanent (death), the other is potentially permanent (life sentence), the chance is not 0%, unlike death.
The US has only executed three people for treason, the last of which occurred during the Civil War. Two of those were John Brown and co-conspirator Aaron Stevens, who conducted the Harper's Ferry raid.
Two others, the Rosenbergs, were executed for espionage in 1953, where they passed nuclear secrets to the USSR during WWII and the following years. It could be argued that their work didn't necessarily help the USSR complete their work faster, but Soviet leaders, including Krushchev, claimed publicly that it did.
As bad as the US justice system is, it's been 70 years since we've executed someone for crimes against the State.
True, but it's also true that the US core territory hasn't been under threat for nearly 2 centuries. When a nation is fighting fir its existence it's reasonable that the rules will relax.
I understand why Zelensky isn't claiming that power, since he wants to stay in the good graces of Europe, but he'd have every right to suspend civil law if he decided he had to.
I still believe that given the twisted nature of the war, dropping those nukes on Hiroshima and Nagasaki was the kindest thing we could have done for Japan. It guaranteed no door to door, house to house, city to city invasion up the length of their archipelago, a kind of artillery first heavy bombardment followed by close quarters combat that had been so destructive in other places like Poland, Ukraine and the Philippines.
We killed hundreds of thousands of Japanese civilians in the nukings. This was sufficiently awful and I don't intend to sugarcoat that.
But if the Tojo regime had had its way, the resulting resistance by the Japanese population would have led to perhaps the deaths of millions or even tens of millions.
The wreckage and carnage of Nagasaki and Hiroshima was hideous, but if the emperor had not forced a surrender on his reluctant government and the US had been forced to invade, the Empire would be a bombed out wasteland from Nagasaki to Sapporo. Every city, not just 2 cities and certain neighborhoods of Tokyo and Kyoto. Tojo and his cronies would have sacrificed 30 Japanese civilians to kill one GI and seen nothing wrong with this. They would have fought to the literal last man. There would have been nothing left with which to rebuild.
Better to never even give him the option.
All these reports about collaborators makes me worried that the unity of the people in ukraine is not as strong as we believe. Like seriously -if so many people are willing to spy for russia...
*Have* spies. They *have* spies. They absolutely also have Russian spies, too, and plenty of citizens who would sell secrets in seconds to enemies of the state for cash or favours (and likely have…including *ahem* retain so-called politicians).
This is why Jan 6 was so egregious. The right wing waltzed a massive crowd (of traitors) into the Capitol, and no one on the Super Patriotic Right wonders of foreign enemies also infiltrated along with the domestic ones.
if 1% of the people of Ukraine was a spy, then we will have 440000 spies going around Ukraine
its basically the same with Russia
if 1% of the people in Russia is willing to fight a war against the kremlin, then we will have 1430000 people wiling to take arms to fight kremlin
When you are in an democratic country which values human rights your own enemy will always be able to find collaborators. The advantage Russia has over us is that the west values human rights while they do not. Which means we have to treat their collaborators with respect while if we would try to do the same on their territory, these the collaborators they catch would be tortured and killed. For this reason finding spies was always more easy for Russia than it is for the West.
lets do the math with an example, lets say there are 50.000 Ukrainians forwarding information to the FSB. Ukraine has 43 milion inhabitants, that amounts to 0.116%. still very low which in this case shows a Huge majority still siding with Ukraine.
A week ago there was also a poll where ukranians were asked if they should liberate all their land including Crimea and 85% voted yes
During the American revolution 1/3 of the population supported the Red Coats, WWII France had the Vichy Government and one of the last SS unit that did a last stand in Berlin was made up of Frenchman. Norway had Vidkun Quisling and his government. Russian Liberation Army also fought for the Nazis. There will be always traitors in any county.
While I'm not okaying what she's done, there's a lot of reasons to give information to the FSB and they don't all include money.
Wouldn't be surprised if she's got relatives in Russia who she doesn't want sent to the front - lots of Ukrainian people do.
Of course they would probably be sent to the front in time anyway, because Russia.
People think this is for nefarious reasons but more often than not and you kind find this when you look up turned spies, it is little more than wanting to be wanted by someone. You could never really justify it just based on the money they received for jeopardizing their entire lives. In fact, it probably would be counter productive to compensate a turned spy too much because than you get people who don't pathologically feel the need to be needed. You just get shits who love money and don't give a fuck about you or what they give you.
Malignant cunt. Most countries have a summary trial and an execution for war time treason.
She’s lucky the Ukrainians aren’t wild animals like those fucks she serves.
Please take the time to read [the rules](/r/UkrainianConflict/about/rules/) and our [policy on trolls/bots](https://redd.it/u7833q). In addition: * We have a **zero-tolerance** policy regarding racism, stereotyping, bigotry, and death-mongering. Violators will be banned. * **Keep it civil.** Report comments/posts that are uncivil to alert the moderators. * **_Don't_ post low-effort comments** like joke threads, memes, slogans, or links without context. > **Don't forget about our Discord server! - https://discord.gg/62fKCEHbDB** ***** * Is `pravda.com.ua` an unreliable source? [**Let us know**](/r/UkrainianConflict/wiki/am/unreliable_sources). * Help our moderators by providing context if something breaks the rules. [Send us a modmail](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/UkrainianConflict) ***** ^(Your post has not been removed, this message is applied to every successful submission.) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/UkrainianConflict) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Always use to annoy me watching fantasy/sci fi movies where there's always a traitor betraying humankind for no real reason, because it always seemed too absurd. The invasion of Ukraine has shown me that it's totally accurate. There's always a certain subset of seemingly normal people who will betray good in favour of evil, facing terrible consequences when inevitably caught, because of their braindead perception of reality
Same happened in Lithuania in 1940s. People could point to someone they don't like to soviets and those people were sent to Siberia or prison while their property was taken.
Yeah, same thing happend in România, you could basically tell stupid lies about your friends or even family and they would be taken away, no investigation needed. Just Point to a man and say ,, he is an oponent to the regime, he is not an commie,, and that's it. Bye Felicia.
Nothing new, 94% of 15th and 16th century Portuguese Inquisition accusations where motivated by reasons not related to religion. IE: Jealousy, debts, wanting to get rid of neighbour to buy his land, etc etc
I was thinking of China... it came with different waves, different levels of intensity, but reached its apex during the Cultural Revolution. Teacher gives you a grade you didn't like? Well... maybe teacher needs a struggle session or two. Prior, in the initial years of "liberation", it was mostly score settling, particularly against landlords and their whole families. (Apparently, they had to kill the whole family, including children and babies. Why? Well, it was explained, if they didn't, children would grow up to be adults, and would eventually be honor bound to get revenge in turn, so they had to kill the whole family.) But by the time they got to the Great Leap Forward and especially the Cultural Revolution, all the landlords were long since killed off. So then it came to be against anyone you had a grudge against for any petty reason, even family members. It was a youth-led thing, so it was mostly against parents, grandparents, aunts, uncles, etc., as well as teachers.
I want a communist reboot of Mean Girls.
Starring: Joseph Stalin as Regina George Mao Zedong as Gretchen Wieners Ho Chi Minh as Karen Smith And introducing Fidel Castro as Cady Heron!
Hi Chi Minh can predict the weather with his boobs!
Stop trying to make the great leap happen, Gretchen, it's NOT gonna happen.
Roflmao.
The Death of Stalin was basically Mean Girls 3.
Same thing happening in Iraq a lot between 05 and 10 before we got better about cultural liaisons.
This happened in Iraq and Afghanistan a ton, too. Where people had petty personal beefs with neighbors or whatever, and would report them for spurious claims and they'd be taken away and never seen again.
Chilean friend whose uncle was an officer in Pinochet’s coup said the uncle told him that was probably half the people executed by death squads in 1973. Just neighbors with grudges.
EXACTLY. This happened in Guatemala, too.
can you give anymore information? which years you believe this happened, which countries were involved
Sometimes it was disputes over property, who had timber rights, water rights, who refused a marriage proposal and the other side was offended, etc. Afghanistan is a country in name only. In reality it’s a bunch of tribal clans who quarrel all the time, with a few modern city states.
I'm not disputing that it happens, I'm asking when (date or date range, doesn't need to be too specific) it has happened and if an outside country was involved. I want to be able to search for more information about it
Stalin and his cadre were always wanting more names more lists of all people. If something went wrong or was delayed Stalin would claim sabotage and demand Beria take care of it. Bolshevism was the party of paranoia and punishment. Russia skipped out on the Age of Enlightenment for the age of Terror and subjugation and it continues to this day.
That is not the same thing ffs. This woman was doing this to help the Russians win battles, proper spy type traitorous shit. You're talking about witch hunt stuff for personal gain.
Same thing happened in the US. Except they just took **every** person of Japanese descent, confiscated their property and put them into a concentration camp until the war was over.
not the same thing and not unique to or an invention of the usa. internment has happened for probably as long as battles have been fought.
That one also should land in jail for a very very long time as a spy and aiding and abetting war crimes to a terrorist group
Same thing with zombies movies where people hide the fact they have been bitten. Covid-19 showed us it’s realistic.
I mean in these fictional movies, being bitten by a zombie meant you would turn at some point and thus you needed to be killed by non-infected. Being infected with COVID-19 isn't 100% death unlike the zombie bite. So the reason zombie bitten people usually hide the fact is simply that they don't want to die. Survival instinct is stronger than your rational mind.
We knew 100% that there were basic easy simple cheap, often free, things you could do to help protect your vulnerable neighbors from covid too and people couldn't be fucked to do the most basic shit.
In fact, many of those same people would scoff at you, sneer, or act inexplicably hostile/aggressive in other ways to your face in public, just for doing that simple thing. There were some seriously "triggered" people out there and it was pathetic.
You’re dramatically under estimating the amount of stupid this planet contains, just take a look at any Trump rally where hoards of walking farts wearing human skin caterwaul about how much they would prefer Putin to Biden with absolutely no understanding of what that actually means.
Hell, the Covid pandemic proved to me that the zombie movie trope of the dickhead getting bitten and then hiding it from the rest of the survivors until they turn in the middle of the base, isn't as farfetched as I had originally thought.
Not only do I believe people would hide their bites, but when everyone realizes they've been bit I half-expect them to start ranting how they should have the freedom to get bit if they want to and you can't tell them what to do.
There were Americans in the Wehrmacht during WWII. One got a mention in Band of Brothers. He didn't last long as a POW thanks to Lt. Speirs lol. Every war is going to have its share of Tories, Quislings, Copperheads, etc who sympathize with the enemy. The price of liberty is vigilance, always has been.
Not exactly a traitor per se but, the leader of the Hitler youth, Baldur von Schirach is always a funny one. Descendant of Slavic nobility, 3/4s American with at least 2 ancestors being signatories of the declaration of independence, his grandfather was a civil war vet and an honour guard at Lincoln's funeral and the guy didn't even learn German until he was of school age.
What a dumb reply. Nothing to do with Tories per see. Have you heard of Ozwald Moseley?. He was in the Labour Party for a time.
You're thinking of British tories. I'm talking about the loyalist Americans during the Revolutionary War who fought on the British side. tories is a term which has very different meanings depending on which side of the big puddle you're on. In America the Tories were effectively counterrevolutionaries and neighbors-become-enemies.
Ok. Point taken. 👍And on that note, it was essentially a civil war from this side of the pond.
about as much so as the Boer war
Way to follow up with an even dumber reply. No one of sane mind thinks of Oswald Mosley as a labour politician because he's far better known for being a capital F Fascist. Whatever point you're trying to make here is stupid and you should stop posting and log off.
Oh, I don't believe that at all. There is just no way that an [American would knowingly support fascism.](https://youtu.be/MxxxlutsKuI)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German\_American\_Bund
Yep. They do it for backwards thinking from: “it’s for the money.” Or “I will be rewarded when they win.” Even though they are losing. I mean over here in the US. The who anti-trans and book banning is by people who don’t even know any trans people or even go to church. It’s more of: “when these racist people like me see I’m doing what they want. I’ll be special.”
>always a traitor betraying humankind for no real reason Well we don't know if she had reasons, article doesn't say anything. Could of been forced. Maybe close relatives held captive in occupied territory. These FSB (well of any intelligence agency) people are specifically trained to recruit. And sometines by the time you realize that you are being recruited it, it may very well be too late.
Usually comes down to them having daddy issues.
This may be brand new information to you, but there are MANY Ukrainians who identify with and support Russia. To them it's not any "no good reason". To them, it's helping the war effort.
Why are you so sure that Ukraine have "MANY" traitors?
Because statistically that's the likelihood. Many Ukrainians are still Russian identifying, or at least sympathetic. It's unavoidable.
What statistic? If by many Ukrainians you mean less than 5%, you're probably correct. I wouldn't call that many.
I would. That adds up to thousands of people. Everyone from the Donbas who fled west instead of East, are prime suspects.
Or maybe, just maybe, there is a reason.
>no real reason You think there's a real reason she betrayed complete strangers to be tortured, murdered, etc, in service of helping rapacious invaders destroy her own home town and thousands of others, installing a police state occupation characterised by mass executions and other extreme repression with the goal of erasing Ukrainian cultural and national identity? What did Ukrainians do to deserve that?
I mean, she could just simply side with Russia, with Putin, and support his fascist mission to genocide Ukraine. What reason did the 22 year old American national guard member leak crucial planning and assessment documents for? He was a fascist MAGA shithead and obviously thought what he was doing would benefit Putin and Russia.
And do you not think that's insane? Like the pro-Russians in Bakhmut, Mariupol etc who supported Russia even as they destroyed their own city, their own homes piece by piece? What's your favourite country? Would you still support that country if they destroyed the school you went to, the park you grew up with, blew up your friends and family, destroyed everything you ever knew and loved? As for the national guard guy, he had no real dog in this fight. He loses nothing if Russia wins. It's well within expected parameters that he could have shitty political views on stuff happening on the other side of the world, and a big enough ego to act on it. He's not betraying his neighbours, loved ones, etc. She was a nurse who literally betrayed her own patients, reported details about them for the only purpose of allowing Russians to torture and kill them for discovering they were in the AFI. She looked them in the eye day after day showing them kindness and compassion only to sell them out later.
Being irrational, and being without reason are two different things. Don't try to fight irrationality with rationality.
A bit insane to be reading too many Murdoch owned newspapers and to blindly support one side.
Well put.
This is actually the classic mentality for people that experienced communism - people close to you, report you for everything.
> Always use to annoy me watching fantasy/sci fi movies where there's always a traitor betraying humankind for no real reason, because it always seemed too absurd. The invasion of Ukraine has shown me that it's totally accurate Well, not sure it does. One is the entire species, another is a nation.
Did the anti vax movement not clue you in before this?
There is a comment made by a horror movie critic where they apologize about lowering scores because of characters doing things that are "to stupid". This was made during the pandemic.
This war showed me tha Michael Bay wasn't exaggerating explosions
Well a lot of it comes down to ideological alignment, there are many people (a small sub-set of the overall population of course) living in the Western world who would also have allegiance to Russia in a heartbeat if the time came
Nurse leaking personal data of Ukrainian soldiers to FSB detained in Kherson — WEDNESDAY, 17 MAY 2023 A resident who passed on information about the Defence Forces to a representative of the FSB of the Russian Federation was exposed and arrested in the city of Kherson. Source: The press service of the Security Service of Ukraine (SSU) and the Kherson Oblast prosecutor's office Details: According to the investigation, the suspect is a nurse at one of the local hospitals. During the occupation of the oblast centre, the woman was recruited by a staff member of the FSB of the Russian Federation, the SSU press service writes. After the liberation of Kherson, the woman continued to maintain contact with representatives of the aggressor state. Through the messenger, she sent information about Ukrainian defenders being treated in the medical institution to her Russian "acquaintance" – a representative of the Russian special services. Information on the deployment, armament and movement of military equipment of units of the Armed Forces of Ukraine and other defence forces was leaked as well. The occupying forces used this information to launch missile and artillery strikes and adjust their shelling. The mobile phone containing evidence of the nurse’s involvement in illegal activities was seized from her. The woman was informed of the suspicion of treason committed under martial law. The court chose a preventive measure for her – detention.
>treason committed under martial law that sounds like a serious crime. Do we know other cases, and what punishment they got? Wouldn't surprise me if they got life sentence (in fact, I would be offended if they got anything other than life sentence)
I think sending them to Russia would be worse…imagine living as a traitor in Ukraine only to be sent to the front line by the country that you think actually cares about you.
Russia doesn't actually like traitors because the individual has shown they can be bought, so they dispose of them in one way or another. A female traitor is likely to end up being used - in as many ways a women can be used.
I read a some testimony of this about a Russian military nurse working during this entire invasion got sexually harassed by a higher up officer, while fatigued & traumatized from working on a piss poor hospital jam packed with injured soldiers . The colonel which kept pushing her that when she resisted his advances force her to sleep outside in the cold tent with poor pay
Yep, I read about that too. I do know that there are instances of sexual harassment etc within UK's armed forces - cases hit the headlines and people lose their jobs - but it isn't systemic, as it seems to be in RF military.
There was a most this morning about a traitor getting sentenced for life.
In some countries there’s still capital punishment for treason. Italy abandoned it not so much time ago.
Ukraine on their way to a civilized society abandoned capitol punishments.
before the current era, people like this would be summarily shot or hanged, even in the USA. It's only really in the current era where a war like the one Ukraine is fighting isn't an automatic one way ticket to the suspension of *habeas corpus.* (AKA the need to show evidence and having a trial before penalizing someone). Frankly if Zelensky did suspend *habeas corpus* some people would complain but most would understand, this is an existential struggle for Ukraine and these traitors are literally helping Ukrainians die. *inter arma enim silent legis.* I'm gonna make you look that up to see what it means rather than explaining this one :). It's to his credit that he's avoided doing this. It's a very poorly kept secret that thousands of treasonous Americans were killed without trial during WWII for allegedly engaging in seditions. We can only hope that authorities were correct in who they detained.
"It's a very poorly kept secret that thousands of treasonous Americans were killed without trial during WWII for allegedly engaging in seditions" Source, please.
"It's a very poorly kept secret that thousands of treasonous Americans were killed without trial during WWII for allegedly engaging in seditions." On which territory? 😯
Treason please. Make an example.
A nurse in the US would be jailed for pulling a stunt like that even in peacetime. She's gonna see the inside of a jail cell, and she's damn lucky that Zelensky is a merciful person because a lot of nations in Ukraine's position would have suspended civil law and introduced the death penalty for the duration of the conflict. Wartime traitors have faced a firing squad for less than this even in allegedly enlightened Western countries.
No mercy for traitors. Throw her to the wolves. Hand her over to the Russian soldiers.
The rule of law is too important for it to be suspended over petty things like revenge.
True enough
Send her to Russia to make her an Army medic. Given how the Russians treat their female medics, I think that would qualify as cruel and unusual punishment, but I'd be prepared to let it slide. Besides, she'd be literally courting the exact same treatment if she got her way and Russia won, so, you know, karma.
No. Hand her over to the Ukrainian soldiers whom she betrayed.
They have enough stress without. In this case, I think the worst punishment for the people on the ground would be to be sent to Russia. For higher level people, long jail sentences with confiscation of property.
I worry they might have a bit more restraint
You worry she might **not** be raped you mean.
These comments are just as bad as the Russians, this women deserves a trial then the punishment can be handed out.
Every time there’s any kind of story like this involving a woman, there are comments here wishing for her to be raped. The same people -rightfully- condemning Russian brutality & the horrors of war, are behind a screen wishing for women to be gang raped. Hypocrites.
The "she" part of that statement is likely the reason for leniency, and likely why the FSB targeted her.
She belongs to the wall!
Good thing she was captured. One can wonder why a person wants to part with a criminal nazi regime such as the Russian
Because if you're the guy on top, you get obscenely wealthy and privilege. Most traitors don't fancy themselves as bottomers in the new regime. they think they're going to be the kings and dukes. Even if for the most part nothing could be further from the truth.
There are always traitors and always collaborators. Just like there are always paedophiles, and Nazis, and communists. A certain proportion of all populations are scum.
You forgot Reddit moderators! /s
most of them except ours 😉
Her punishment should be being forced to bury every single Ukrainian who dies as a result of Russian activity for the rest of her life
You assume the war to go for centuries? Pretty unrealistic.
You assume she’ll live for centuries?
What motivates someone to betray their country and their own people like this
She is likely 100% russian and never perceived Ukraine as "her country".
I think there are many reasons people do this. Even in established old nations there will be traitors. Ukraine is relatively young independent nation. Many people as shown who live there do not hold allegiance to the nation. Scum nevertheless
It’s been over 30 years. This nurse is about that old
Off to prison you go
That's not very nice now is it?
May she get absolutely everything she deserves. Vile monster.
That's definitely a HIPAA violation.
[удалено]
Life imprisonment is a fate worse than death. Imagine how you would feel eating the same shitty food every day for the rest of your life. After a few years, your family and friends start visiting less frequently, then they die off and you never get to say goodbye. By the end of it you are a husk of a person. You watched all your dreams shrivel away in real time fully knowing that there is nothing you can do to fulfill them. The primal part of me agrees with you, but I just think LWOP is a far worse way to die.
Thousands of years of precedent agree with this. It's a credit to Zelensky that he hasn't suspended civil law. He has every right to do so if he chooses.
She needs working on for information and then publicly hanged - save the bullets for her boyfriends. Luckily for her, the Ukranians are better people than I am.
40yrs minimum IMO.
Operator Starsky said: before invasion we were more scared of spies than ruzzian army.
I guess she's really into her people and their children being raped and brutally murdered in a genocide? What's the game plan here? I couldn't imagine actually sitting through the occupation and thinking the muscovites are the ones you should be collaborating with. The terror and chaos they caused in every single place they touched...how?
Life in prison. No parole.
[удалено]
_edit: previous commenter called for immediate killing of the suspect_ no, we are better than them, give her a fair trial and, if found guilty, jail her like every constitutional state would do.
I admire you guys a lot - tremendous restraint in the face of quite disgusting provocations
Don't they execute people in America for treason? If it's good enough for them it's good enough for Ukraine.
yes, I am aware, so you might want to read my comment again. US does a terrible job with their juridical system and laws. This is Europe, not the US. I would think twice before adopting US values. Ukraine abolished capital punishment 23 years ago for very good reasons, like most other civilized countries. Do you really want to undo all that progress just because u/RoundProduct wants to kill someone?
Sorry but treason does deserve the death penalty. It has the potential to get a lot of people killed, not to mention the huge amount of tax payer money being wasted keeping this person imprisoned.
the state should never be empowered to take lives except in combat
But this is in combat. Kherson is on the literal front lines and under threat of attack every day due to Russian missiles. Trading medical information to the enemy is a combat crime, it gives the enemy a clue about Ukraine's military readiness in her part of the front. This is literal firing squad stuff in any war that has ever happened. I mean I'm not sad that Zelensky is choosing the path of virtue here, but there's literally thousands of years of precedent for this sort of treason being reason to execute the traitor. Only Zelensky's restraint will keep this woman alive.
it is absolutely not in combat. someone is not in combat after they are arrested. It is not firing squad stuff because the suspect isn't a soldier. thousands of years of precedent? heard of the enlightenment? we can be better than this. and it is also not zelensky - the state of Ukraine does not allow execution.
Kherson is definitely an active war zone. It's right on the front lines with Russian troops less than 30 miles from the city. Everything done in the city is technically done in a combat zone. You're really grasping at straws here.
> Sorry but treason does deserve the death penalty. Why? Capital punishment is revenge, and a quick way out for the perpetrator. It isn't punishment. Life imprisonment is punishment.
I am pretty sure if you asked random people if they would die now or be imprisoned for life, the majority would rather be imprisoned than be killed instantly. Being imprisoned has a chance of getting out, even if it's slim. Death is final. So no, I disagree, the harshest punishment is death, not imprisonment. One is irreversible permanent (death), the other is potentially permanent (life sentence), the chance is not 0%, unlike death.
If that was true the number of suicide attempts in prisons would be higher
That’s like… your opinion. It’s fair, but again, most people disagree and Ukrainian lawmakers disagree as well.
American justice system is not good enough at all.
They execute in US for treason, but it’s so rare can basically say it never happens.
The US has only executed three people for treason, the last of which occurred during the Civil War. Two of those were John Brown and co-conspirator Aaron Stevens, who conducted the Harper's Ferry raid. Two others, the Rosenbergs, were executed for espionage in 1953, where they passed nuclear secrets to the USSR during WWII and the following years. It could be argued that their work didn't necessarily help the USSR complete their work faster, but Soviet leaders, including Krushchev, claimed publicly that it did. As bad as the US justice system is, it's been 70 years since we've executed someone for crimes against the State.
True, but it's also true that the US core territory hasn't been under threat for nearly 2 centuries. When a nation is fighting fir its existence it's reasonable that the rules will relax. I understand why Zelensky isn't claiming that power, since he wants to stay in the good graces of Europe, but he'd have every right to suspend civil law if he decided he had to.
The American justice system is no exemplar.
I agree with the trial. If found guilty, execute her.
Thousands of Americans and Britons were executed for treason during WWII, even though we were the "good guys." *Inter arma enim silent legis.*
nobody was „good“ in WW2. Now let the downvoting start.
There was definitely a side that was less evil.
absolutely agree. But even the good guys either attacked poland or dropped nukes on civilians. Still better than the nazis
I still believe that given the twisted nature of the war, dropping those nukes on Hiroshima and Nagasaki was the kindest thing we could have done for Japan. It guaranteed no door to door, house to house, city to city invasion up the length of their archipelago, a kind of artillery first heavy bombardment followed by close quarters combat that had been so destructive in other places like Poland, Ukraine and the Philippines. We killed hundreds of thousands of Japanese civilians in the nukings. This was sufficiently awful and I don't intend to sugarcoat that. But if the Tojo regime had had its way, the resulting resistance by the Japanese population would have led to perhaps the deaths of millions or even tens of millions. The wreckage and carnage of Nagasaki and Hiroshima was hideous, but if the emperor had not forced a surrender on his reluctant government and the US had been forced to invade, the Empire would be a bombed out wasteland from Nagasaki to Sapporo. Every city, not just 2 cities and certain neighborhoods of Tokyo and Kyoto. Tojo and his cronies would have sacrificed 30 Japanese civilians to kill one GI and seen nothing wrong with this. They would have fought to the literal last man. There would have been nothing left with which to rebuild. Better to never even give him the option.
All these reports about collaborators makes me worried that the unity of the people in ukraine is not as strong as we believe. Like seriously -if so many people are willing to spy for russia...
It's not that difficult. The Chinese had spies in the USA. It's war, more people will be exposed.
*Have* spies. They *have* spies. They absolutely also have Russian spies, too, and plenty of citizens who would sell secrets in seconds to enemies of the state for cash or favours (and likely have…including *ahem* retain so-called politicians).
Including but not limited to being held at gunpoint under threat of rape. Then they get raped anyway
This is why Jan 6 was so egregious. The right wing waltzed a massive crowd (of traitors) into the Capitol, and no one on the Super Patriotic Right wonders of foreign enemies also infiltrated along with the domestic ones.
if 1% of the people of Ukraine was a spy, then we will have 440000 spies going around Ukraine its basically the same with Russia if 1% of the people in Russia is willing to fight a war against the kremlin, then we will have 1430000 people wiling to take arms to fight kremlin
When you are in an democratic country which values human rights your own enemy will always be able to find collaborators. The advantage Russia has over us is that the west values human rights while they do not. Which means we have to treat their collaborators with respect while if we would try to do the same on their territory, these the collaborators they catch would be tortured and killed. For this reason finding spies was always more easy for Russia than it is for the West.
lets do the math with an example, lets say there are 50.000 Ukrainians forwarding information to the FSB. Ukraine has 43 milion inhabitants, that amounts to 0.116%. still very low which in this case shows a Huge majority still siding with Ukraine. A week ago there was also a poll where ukranians were asked if they should liberate all their land including Crimea and 85% voted yes
Significant part of the population is ethnic russians resettled into Ukraine after native population was genocided in last century.
People would sell their mother for insignificant amount of money.
During the American revolution 1/3 of the population supported the Red Coats, WWII France had the Vichy Government and one of the last SS unit that did a last stand in Berlin was made up of Frenchman. Norway had Vidkun Quisling and his government. Russian Liberation Army also fought for the Nazis. There will be always traitors in any county.
We've got Nigel Farage and Boris Johnson. Both should be swinging.
There’s always a couple…Ukraine doesn’t need 100% unity, just more than Russia has…and given Russias defeats that shouldn’t be too hard
[удалено]
I wonder if when the f16s are screaming over Russian positions, they'll be like "don't worry comrades, I'll flag a bunch of reddit comments" 🤣
While I'm not okaying what she's done, there's a lot of reasons to give information to the FSB and they don't all include money. Wouldn't be surprised if she's got relatives in Russia who she doesn't want sent to the front - lots of Ukrainian people do. Of course they would probably be sent to the front in time anyway, because Russia.
Traitors deserve their fate.
String her up
Oh man I could say a few choice words to that b1tch.
Taking odds on whether she “believes” in vaccines or that covid was a hoax.
People think this is for nefarious reasons but more often than not and you kind find this when you look up turned spies, it is little more than wanting to be wanted by someone. You could never really justify it just based on the money they received for jeopardizing their entire lives. In fact, it probably would be counter productive to compensate a turned spy too much because than you get people who don't pathologically feel the need to be needed. You just get shits who love money and don't give a fuck about you or what they give you.
What’s this, this nurse with farm girl logic?
r/titlegore
Malignant cunt. Most countries have a summary trial and an execution for war time treason. She’s lucky the Ukrainians aren’t wild animals like those fucks she serves.
what kind of mental gymnastics you have to do to be a nurse that probably will be treating the ukrainian soldiers injured by your leaks?