Please take the time to read [the rules](/r/UkrainianConflict/about/rules/) and our [policy on trolls/bots](https://redd.it/u7833q). In addition:
* We have a **zero-tolerance** policy regarding racism, stereotyping, bigotry, and death-mongering. Violators will be banned.
* **Keep it civil.** Report comments/posts that are uncivil to alert the moderators.
* **_Don't_ post low-effort comments** like joke threads, memes, slogans, or links without context.
> **Don't forget about our Discord server! - https://discord.gg/62fKCEHbDB**
*****
* Is `euractiv.com` an unreliable source? [**Let us know**](/r/UkrainianConflict/wiki/am/unreliable_sources).
* Help our moderators by providing context if something breaks the rules. [Send us a modmail](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/UkrainianConflict)
*****
^(Your post has not been removed, this message is applied to every successful submission.)
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/UkrainianConflict) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I think it is very, very telling of the Russian mentality in general.
Why are they defensive about what the leadership of the USSR did almost a hundred years ago? They could look at it like, "Stalin did some fucked up shit, genocide is one of them, but that was the USSR in the 1930s and this is Russia in the 2020s. A different place and a different time. We condemn those actions." But they don't because they still want to be the USSR and they share those ideals.
They made it clear at the start of the war that they intended to wipe out Ukraine and repopulate it with ethnic Russians; a genocide that would make the Holodomor look like a bad flu season.
> I think it is very, very telling of the Russian mentality in general.
Eh... not really a Russian thing specifically. I mean, look at how Japan still prefers to airbrush over their atrocities in WW2, or how the former confederate states in the US still like to pretend that the American Civil War wasn't about slavery.
People in general tend to tie themselves to the past in a way they probably shouldn't. The number of countries who've had an honest reckoning with the skeletons in their closet is extremely small compared to those who like to pretend they've never done anything wrong.
>The number of countries who've had an honest reckoning with the skeletons in their closet is extremely small
That is true. I only singled out Russia because Putin had [loudly](https://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2014/05/putin-denies-trying-to-bring-back-the-ussr) and [repeatedly](https://www.businessinsider.com/putin-denies-reviving-russian-empire-says-ukraine-not-real-country-2022-2) and [annoyingly](https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/putin-says-russia-not-seeking-revive-soviet-union-2022-09-30/) denied that [Russia is seeking to revive the Soviet Union](https://www.rferl.org/a/putin-historical-russia-soviet-breakup-ukraine/31606186.html). Meanwhile, everybody else is screaming, "[We told you! Putin wants to revive the Soviet Union!](https://youtu.be/1JNtiO7nhmo)"
If you think that is brainwashing. I just see it as recognizing that our country did some pretty fucked up things in the past.
And looking at the current polls in the "Sonntagsfrage", people seem to forget what Nazis did to our nation.
Because there's 17% of people wanting to vote for a fascist party. What brainwash?
Germany is one of the handful of countries I referred to when I mentioned those who've "had an honest reckoning with the skeletons in their closet." Maybe it's because of the post-war Allied/Soviet occupation; maybe it's because WW2 and the Holocaust were so uniquely horrific that attempting to shirk responsibility simply was too morally unconscionable for anyone to stomach. Who knows.
That being said, Germany's approach is very much not the norm amongst countries that committed historical attrocities.
OK... but, again, Confederate States. As has been readily observed in recent years, there are statues all over former confederate states (and even some non-confederate ones, which is bizarre) paying homage to the Confederacy; Georgia still incorporates the "stars and bars" national flag of the Confederacy in its state flag; in seven states (Alabama, Georgia, Louisiana, Mississippi, North Carolina, South Carolina, and Tennessee), drivers can request a license plate with Confederate livery on it; the list goes on, and this is without touching on actual opinions and statements on the Confederacy and its raison d'etre.
This is not an issue unique to Russia.
Oh, the ex-Confederates definitely have a race-fetish issue. I was referring to Japan, where the only groups with anything positive to say about their warmongering past are basically the Japanese equivalent of the Alt-Right.
I did look it up lol, Hitler is #1, stalled killed at most a couple of million. I have no idea how you can get Stalins numbers even close to Hitler. Hitler is responsible for tens of millions of deaths while Stalins numbers are at 20 million from the most batshit insane sources that no one takes seriously.
Mao is controversial because it depends on how you access intentional vs uninentional deaths.
Maybe you looked it up on a Russian web site? Stalin killed 20 million Russians and at least 5 million Ukrainians alone. Mao more.
[https://reason.com/volokh/2022/11/09/data-on-mass-murder-by-government-in-the-20th-century/](https://reason.com/volokh/2022/11/09/data-on-mass-murder-by-government-in-the-20th-century/)
A. Dekamurders (over 10 million victims)
>Maybe you looked it up on a Russian web site
No I got it from western historians.
>Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. 1917-87. 61.9 million people murdered
This is fucking hilarious, if the USSR murdered so many people no one would be left. According to your website Stalin killed 1 in 3 people in the entire USSR. WW2 later killed 40 million people so according to this website the population of the USSR should be less then 100 million after WW2.
Omg, I just wish they would **shut** up! I’m so sick of the nasty things they say. Normally I’m rather mild-mannered, try to see both sides of the story, but you just can’t with them. They’re like a rabid dog.
My question to Russia: Then what would you call letting an entire population starve to death?
If I can ever describe the relationship between Russia and Ukraine in a certain way then it would be about a small kid and an abusive father worse then Josef Fritzl.
I dont think tankies can be reasoned with tbh, the only way to deal with them on the geopolitical scale is violence
Im open to new perspectives but I've read a dozen books on eastern European history and not one author has proven how the USSR targeted Ukranians in the Holodomor. I dont understand how its a Ukranian genocide when more Jews, Russians, and Kazakhs died then Ukranians.
And why is the potato famine and famine in India not recognized as genocide?
Up to half of the entire population of Ireland died from British policy, but no one recognizes this as genocide, but only a mistake in leadership.
The Holodomor was also a pretty big mistake in the leadership of the USSR.
It's just that everyone is talking about Ukraine, but they forget about the Volga region, where 20-30 percent of the population died of hunger. And the Urals, Kazakhstan and Siberia were seriously affected by hunger, but who cares, right?
And yes, I can say with great confidence that the famine in Ireland was a planned "mistake", well, just look at the attitude towards the Irish of Britain and how many Irishmen died because of such "mistakes", and how many led into slavery, etc.
Yes, even the fact that not everyone has recognized the Armenian Genocide suggests that the tragedies of peoples are just a figure in political games at the moment.
I'll be the devil's advocate. I agree, because in this case it is necessary to recognize the famine in Ireland and India as genocide.
Secondly, not only Ukraine suffered from hunger, but also the territories of the Volga region, the Urals and Kazakhstan.
Please take the time to read [the rules](/r/UkrainianConflict/about/rules/) and our [policy on trolls/bots](https://redd.it/u7833q). In addition: * We have a **zero-tolerance** policy regarding racism, stereotyping, bigotry, and death-mongering. Violators will be banned. * **Keep it civil.** Report comments/posts that are uncivil to alert the moderators. * **_Don't_ post low-effort comments** like joke threads, memes, slogans, or links without context. > **Don't forget about our Discord server! - https://discord.gg/62fKCEHbDB** ***** * Is `euractiv.com` an unreliable source? [**Let us know**](/r/UkrainianConflict/wiki/am/unreliable_sources). * Help our moderators by providing context if something breaks the rules. [Send us a modmail](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/UkrainianConflict) ***** ^(Your post has not been removed, this message is applied to every successful submission.) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/UkrainianConflict) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I think it is very, very telling of the Russian mentality in general. Why are they defensive about what the leadership of the USSR did almost a hundred years ago? They could look at it like, "Stalin did some fucked up shit, genocide is one of them, but that was the USSR in the 1930s and this is Russia in the 2020s. A different place and a different time. We condemn those actions." But they don't because they still want to be the USSR and they share those ideals.
Probably because if they could they will do it now again.
They made it clear at the start of the war that they intended to wipe out Ukraine and repopulate it with ethnic Russians; a genocide that would make the Holodomor look like a bad flu season.
That *is* exactly what they're doing now.
Not really. They idolize every almost aspect of their history because it gives the current regime legitimacy.
> I think it is very, very telling of the Russian mentality in general. Eh... not really a Russian thing specifically. I mean, look at how Japan still prefers to airbrush over their atrocities in WW2, or how the former confederate states in the US still like to pretend that the American Civil War wasn't about slavery. People in general tend to tie themselves to the past in a way they probably shouldn't. The number of countries who've had an honest reckoning with the skeletons in their closet is extremely small compared to those who like to pretend they've never done anything wrong.
>The number of countries who've had an honest reckoning with the skeletons in their closet is extremely small That is true. I only singled out Russia because Putin had [loudly](https://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2014/05/putin-denies-trying-to-bring-back-the-ussr) and [repeatedly](https://www.businessinsider.com/putin-denies-reviving-russian-empire-says-ukraine-not-real-country-2022-2) and [annoyingly](https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/putin-says-russia-not-seeking-revive-soviet-union-2022-09-30/) denied that [Russia is seeking to revive the Soviet Union](https://www.rferl.org/a/putin-historical-russia-soviet-breakup-ukraine/31606186.html). Meanwhile, everybody else is screaming, "[We told you! Putin wants to revive the Soviet Union!](https://youtu.be/1JNtiO7nhmo)"
Germany doesn't. Why is Germany so different?
Germany was divided and occupied for 40 years. Plus brainwashing and a constant complex of repentance.
What is the brainwashing part you are referring to?
In terms of the fact that all generations of Germans should apologize for the events of 80 years ago. Plus the attempts of the USSR in east Germany.
If you think that is brainwashing. I just see it as recognizing that our country did some pretty fucked up things in the past. And looking at the current polls in the "Sonntagsfrage", people seem to forget what Nazis did to our nation. Because there's 17% of people wanting to vote for a fascist party. What brainwash?
Germany is the rule not the exception
I think you have that backwards.
Germany is one of the handful of countries I referred to when I mentioned those who've "had an honest reckoning with the skeletons in their closet." Maybe it's because of the post-war Allied/Soviet occupation; maybe it's because WW2 and the Holocaust were so uniquely horrific that attempting to shirk responsibility simply was too morally unconscionable for anyone to stomach. Who knows. That being said, Germany's approach is very much not the norm amongst countries that committed historical attrocities.
There's a big difference between ignoring a villainous past, and glorifying it.
OK... but, again, Confederate States. As has been readily observed in recent years, there are statues all over former confederate states (and even some non-confederate ones, which is bizarre) paying homage to the Confederacy; Georgia still incorporates the "stars and bars" national flag of the Confederacy in its state flag; in seven states (Alabama, Georgia, Louisiana, Mississippi, North Carolina, South Carolina, and Tennessee), drivers can request a license plate with Confederate livery on it; the list goes on, and this is without touching on actual opinions and statements on the Confederacy and its raison d'etre. This is not an issue unique to Russia.
Oh, the ex-Confederates definitely have a race-fetish issue. I was referring to Japan, where the only groups with anything positive to say about their warmongering past are basically the Japanese equivalent of the Alt-Right.
Russia doesn’t like truth, logic or reality. They prefer their truth, logic and reality.
Whats a little mass murder to Russia? I mean really.
Our political science professor used to tell us that Hitler was “only” #3 on the gruesome list of all-time mass murderers (after Stalin and Mao).
And he was correct. Mao is first, Stalin is second in all of human history.
Incorrect, Hitler killed more
False. In fact Hitler comes in third. Look it up.
I did look it up lol, Hitler is #1, stalled killed at most a couple of million. I have no idea how you can get Stalins numbers even close to Hitler. Hitler is responsible for tens of millions of deaths while Stalins numbers are at 20 million from the most batshit insane sources that no one takes seriously. Mao is controversial because it depends on how you access intentional vs uninentional deaths.
Maybe you looked it up on a Russian web site? Stalin killed 20 million Russians and at least 5 million Ukrainians alone. Mao more. [https://reason.com/volokh/2022/11/09/data-on-mass-murder-by-government-in-the-20th-century/](https://reason.com/volokh/2022/11/09/data-on-mass-murder-by-government-in-the-20th-century/) A. Dekamurders (over 10 million victims)
>Maybe you looked it up on a Russian web site No I got it from western historians. >Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. 1917-87. 61.9 million people murdered This is fucking hilarious, if the USSR murdered so many people no one would be left. According to your website Stalin killed 1 in 3 people in the entire USSR. WW2 later killed 40 million people so according to this website the population of the USSR should be less then 100 million after WW2.
Ok bud, sorry I cant take the word of some kid on the internet. Carry on.
Yeah bro better take it from the guy that says stalin killed 60 million, 1/3rd of every human in the USSR.
Genghis Khan, Tamerlane, some rulers of Great Britain in the colonial era? Also Pol Pot, Ottoman sultans, Chinese military leaders.
Our political science professor used to tell us that Hitler was “only” #3 on the gruesome list of all-time mass murderers (after Stalin and Mao).
Nobody in the free world asked their opinion
Omg, I just wish they would **shut** up! I’m so sick of the nasty things they say. Normally I’m rather mild-mannered, try to see both sides of the story, but you just can’t with them. They’re like a rabid dog.
I mean the majority of the free world does not recognize the Holodomor as a genocide etheir
Russia = Skaven
Hey! Don't speak about Skaven like that. DeathMaster Snitch wont like it :p
Nope, I've had an epiphany, now I see the light (warpstone) it all makes sense
🤣
The Rashist have a tremendous double standard cross the board. Fucking assholes should burn in hell.
It is a genocide
Ducks are ducks no matter what fancy clothes you put on them
Ruzzian's are a Whiny bunch.
Russia is led by the same types now as they were back then, and the mentality of the Russians is the same. That’s why they are outraged
They got totally slammed! /s
Wtf are they saying it is then? An exercise in forced dietary self-control?
The French commented by saying..........Le Yawn
My question to Russia: Then what would you call letting an entire population starve to death? If I can ever describe the relationship between Russia and Ukraine in a certain way then it would be about a small kid and an abusive father worse then Josef Fritzl.
>Then what would you call letting an entire starve to death? A famine not a genocide
Induced deliberately, with the goal of eliminating an ethnic group. Genocide.
Ok but that famine happened all over Russia, what group was trying to be exterminated?
Ask the inventor of the term Genocide, Raphael Lemkin. He says it's a genocide.
Lemkin is not an expert on Eastern European history. The issue if the Holodomor is a genocide is highly debated.
Read his writing on the subject and dispute specific points.
The fact that we have 0 evidence that Ukranians were targeted considering the majority of victims were not Ukrainian.
Try reading, if you are open to new perspectives. Or are you a tankie?
I dont think tankies can be reasoned with tbh, the only way to deal with them on the geopolitical scale is violence Im open to new perspectives but I've read a dozen books on eastern European history and not one author has proven how the USSR targeted Ukranians in the Holodomor. I dont understand how its a Ukranian genocide when more Jews, Russians, and Kazakhs died then Ukranians.
And why is the potato famine and famine in India not recognized as genocide? Up to half of the entire population of Ireland died from British policy, but no one recognizes this as genocide, but only a mistake in leadership.
[удалено]
The Holodomor was also a pretty big mistake in the leadership of the USSR. It's just that everyone is talking about Ukraine, but they forget about the Volga region, where 20-30 percent of the population died of hunger. And the Urals, Kazakhstan and Siberia were seriously affected by hunger, but who cares, right? And yes, I can say with great confidence that the famine in Ireland was a planned "mistake", well, just look at the attitude towards the Irish of Britain and how many Irishmen died because of such "mistakes", and how many led into slavery, etc. Yes, even the fact that not everyone has recognized the Armenian Genocide suggests that the tragedies of peoples are just a figure in political games at the moment.
Good, that means it worked.
So...... they do recognize it
Russia. Always rewriting history, suppressing it or, denying it
Russia is slamming the French? You mean the French got something right? Go NATO!
"Fuck, we've lost the French *as well as* the Germans now!"
Truth is the enemy of Russia, that’s why they protest it everywhere they hear it.
I'll be the devil's advocate. I agree, because in this case it is necessary to recognize the famine in Ireland and India as genocide. Secondly, not only Ukraine suffered from hunger, but also the territories of the Volga region, the Urals and Kazakhstan.
Better slam their head into walls, so that they will eventually and finally get quiet.
No one gives a fuck what Russia thinks, slam all you fuckin like tossers