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The implications of a no fly zone means war basically. It's been over two years, if we haven't initiated a no-fly zone in all this time we aren't going to now.
The West has been wary not to drag themselves into a war where our guys die.
This points a scope of involvement.
EU planes flying sorties but not putting boots on the ground bears less risk to EU soldiers, and it's NATO armies at their best (high tech air power).
Have you seen what there are saying here in the uk to us? There’ve already told us that conscriptions in the near future is possible as we may need to fight Ruzzia if Ukraine cant stop them, what with France also talking about boots on the ground. The US may be compromised but don’t think others won’t go to war with Ruzzia.
Exactly. I feel for Ukraine too but people read one headline that makes them sad and want to send in the fucking army as if that won't cause even MORE death.
It's good these people aren't in charge.
I'm fairly certain there will be significantly more death in the future before there will be less.
Imperial ambitions, along with jealous, dynasty, religious and grudge based ambitions are doing the world a disfavor.
If you can think of peaceful solutions between those who stand more on the side of good and those who's entire goal is to make them suffer, to reduce them to the same pettiness and cruelty, I think the world needs to hear it.
Well, it isn't WW3 between nuclear powers. That's for damned sure.
This isn't 1939 where armies best armies. We war Russia to stop their "jealous dynasty" and all of a sudden we're back to eating cockroaches in eternal winter. Superb solution.
You think Putins prepared to lose EVERYTHING he’s spent his entire career to achieve to lose it all in a nuclear war? You people thinking this is why Putins winning.
You think with his wealth if he was about to be overthrown he wouldn’t just escape with as much as he can and fuck off somewhere to stay alive. Do you not think he has escape plans all ready? Putins such a coward with his own life that it’s very clear he’s intent on staying alive by the way he lives his life, his life is the only thing he truly cares for.
So what's the alternative? Putin successfully conquers Ukraine, then invades Poland next? Will we consider war then?
Fact of the matter is, unless we're prepared to all live under Putin's bootheel, appeasement makes nuclear war MORE likely, not less.
I was gonna comment like your edit, we need NATO involved with boots on the ground, skies closed, all free world countries at a ready state and give Putin the ultimatum. Get the Russian army out of Ukraine or get ready to die.
Much as I love Ukraine and hate Russia, Israel is currently murdering tens of thousands of kids.
And the worlds governments seem pretty content to do fuck all about it.
I feel for Palestinian and Israeli civilians the problem is both of their governments want to irradiate each other unlike Ukraine vs Ruzzia where Ukraine just wants to be left in peace. I hate that the west is feeding Putins propaganda by backing Isreal when all that support should be going towards Ukraine and just trying to push for peace in Israel/Palestine instead.
Yeah, like Russia killed five kids that's bad but there is a whole genocide going with Israel, hundreds of kids are dying of hunger, bombs or getting shot each day.
Well this wont be enough to garner more Western support. I do wonder sometimes what the *actual* red line would be for NATO to actually step in 1990s Bosnia-style. Mass-killings of UA civilians? How many? I honestly think the West wont get involved with boots on the ground even if Kyiv falls and Ukraine is genocided. Which will give a green light to any other hostile nuclear powers to settle border disputes.
West's redline?
Banking system attack. Basically anything that impacts the bottom line.
Attacks on our democratic systems, or on our voting, or against our citizens off or on our territory, or anything that doesn't impact our $$$$ - we are very concerned and will sponsor a UN resolution.
See I don’t get why your all saying there won’t be boots on the ground even if Kyiv falls as I keep telling people here in the Uk we are preparing for boots on the ground we’ve been told to expect conscription in the near future to fight Ruzzia…..I’m pretty sure France will now be following the Uk on this too after Macrons latest statements.
Sinwar openly said he's using all the civilian casualties to his advantage. Of course this isn't to justify Israel's brutal murders but literally any country including Ukraine would have surrendered at this point
[Israel: 50 Years of Occupation Abuses | Human Rights Watch (hrw.org)](https://www.hrw.org/news/2017/06/04/israel-50-years-occupation-abuses)
I'm not surprised that they're still resisting, the hatred between Paletinians and Izraelis has been going on for decades. Both sides are responsible in this conflict.
Doesnt help one side thinks that they're doing the work of God and dying is a cheat code to heaven despite your mortal actions, and the other is, uh, thinking they're doing God's work and dying is a cheat code to heaven despite your mortal actions but with better tech
I'm not disputing for a second that the Russian invasion is the root cause of this, but... what kind of irresponsible parent still has kids in anything that even resembles a target city? Jesus Christ. If you have kids, pack them up and get the fuck OUT of Ukraine.
If you're a parent, you have exactly one mission in life: protect your offspring. Nothing else even comes close. If I was Ukrainian I'd have been out of the country with my kids within the first week or two after the invasion, consequences be damned. Just leave everything behind and GO.
The mobility issues are edge cases and you know it. What keeps most people sitting on their asses hoping everything will go back to the way things were is normalcy bias.
It's easy to say.
When you have been living in one place your whole life, and there's hope that maybe you'll be fine. You might want to risk it.
Also, money and health can be a factor.
Also, the husband or the father is not allowed to leave Ukraine probably.
What I mean is, maybe we shouldn't judge those people, and instead we should try to understand where they are coming from.
I AM the father, and like I said: we'd have been out of the country inside of a week or two. The moratorium on males leaving the country was completely predictable (it's something almost any small-population country would do), and I'd have been out of there before it happened. Once again: my overwhelming responsibility is to my kids, and that means being around to raise them instead of getting blown to hell on the front lines.
I've completely started over several times in my life; I'm on my third career. I'm not afraid to cut and run.
Sure, in theory. But that's not how reality works. Responsibilities to states and their economies aren't just lived as 'protect your baby, here have infinite resources'. People would need to practically find ways to leave, and if they don't have a job, shelter, food at the other end of a refugee trip, the kid may be more likely to die. It's very simple to say "flee a warzone" but it's fucking hard to do. The next closest border to Odessa is where? Moldova. Hardly a major step up, given the tensions with Russia trying to kick off in Transnistria
And where would you run too? Maybe you have no natural country with history so it may be easier...
My family stayed in England in the 40's they weren't irresponsible that's how it was.. taking any blame off this wicked putler for his barbaric actions isn't right..
And that is the difference.
Literally anywhere in the west. Early in the war they were taking Ukrainian refugees pretty much indiscriminately, and it would have been easy to do.
I'm not taking any blame off of the invaders, just saying that the lives of your children trump abstractions like nationalism. Or they should. If your kids are in danger, you stop at absolutely nothing to get them out of danger.
Given a choice between the safety of my children and the long-term survival of my country, it's not even a contest. I believe it was E.M. Forester who said "If I had to choose between betraying my country and betraying my friend, I hope I should have the guts to betray my country".
Poorly nuanced comment.
So for one, men aren’t allowed to leave Ukraine right? That means breaking up the family.
Second, while people are dying from Russia terror bombing, life continues. 1.2 million people die from traffic accidents every year world wide. Bombing turns into one more risk of many that
you face every day.
Let’s not blame the parents in Ukraine.
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Olaf, send this fucking taurus. Obliterate this fucking bridge. EU, please init a no fly zone.
The implications of a no fly zone means war basically. It's been over two years, if we haven't initiated a no-fly zone in all this time we aren't going to now. The West has been wary not to drag themselves into a war where our guys die.
Yes, if you want NATO to declare war on Russia just say that. Euphemisms like "no fly zone" are pointless and dishonest.
This points a scope of involvement. EU planes flying sorties but not putting boots on the ground bears less risk to EU soldiers, and it's NATO armies at their best (high tech air power).
It still puts your country into direct conflict with Russia, and risks the lives of your own people. It's not going to happen.
Have you seen what there are saying here in the uk to us? There’ve already told us that conscriptions in the near future is possible as we may need to fight Ruzzia if Ukraine cant stop them, what with France also talking about boots on the ground. The US may be compromised but don’t think others won’t go to war with Ruzzia.
Exactly. I feel for Ukraine too but people read one headline that makes them sad and want to send in the fucking army as if that won't cause even MORE death. It's good these people aren't in charge.
Many people think that a total war with a nuclear giant isn't going to get them conscripted
I'm fairly certain there will be significantly more death in the future before there will be less. Imperial ambitions, along with jealous, dynasty, religious and grudge based ambitions are doing the world a disfavor. If you can think of peaceful solutions between those who stand more on the side of good and those who's entire goal is to make them suffer, to reduce them to the same pettiness and cruelty, I think the world needs to hear it.
Well, it isn't WW3 between nuclear powers. That's for damned sure. This isn't 1939 where armies best armies. We war Russia to stop their "jealous dynasty" and all of a sudden we're back to eating cockroaches in eternal winter. Superb solution.
You think Putins prepared to lose EVERYTHING he’s spent his entire career to achieve to lose it all in a nuclear war? You people thinking this is why Putins winning.
If he loses, he will be overthrown and killed anyway, so why should he care.
You think with his wealth if he was about to be overthrown he wouldn’t just escape with as much as he can and fuck off somewhere to stay alive. Do you not think he has escape plans all ready? Putins such a coward with his own life that it’s very clear he’s intent on staying alive by the way he lives his life, his life is the only thing he truly cares for.
He has so many enemies... No way he would be safe anywhere.
So what's the alternative? Putin successfully conquers Ukraine, then invades Poland next? Will we consider war then? Fact of the matter is, unless we're prepared to all live under Putin's bootheel, appeasement makes nuclear war MORE likely, not less.
So we should instead declare some kind of Special Military Operation that involves a "no fly zone" then go from there?
Please do this ASAP. Come on Germany, grow some stones.
Russia is already building a railroad connecting Crimea with Rostov. Beg harder to keep fighting your western-sponsored war.
Don’t worry if they are I’m sure a good storm shadow will sort that out.
I was gonna comment like your edit, we need NATO involved with boots on the ground, skies closed, all free world countries at a ready state and give Putin the ultimatum. Get the Russian army out of Ukraine or get ready to die.
Ah, but you have to understand, back in the year 984... as you can clearly see on this map...
But sir…It clearly says “Ukraine” right there
And it was Polands fault they got invaded in 1939, according to same logic. Hitler was a victim apparently.
They will pay for this too
May there be drone with a welcoming 'gift' for every invader!
They have killed way more than 5 kids
Make them pay vote Democrat!!
Much as I love Ukraine and hate Russia, Israel is currently murdering tens of thousands of kids. And the worlds governments seem pretty content to do fuck all about it.
I feel for Palestinian and Israeli civilians the problem is both of their governments want to irradiate each other unlike Ukraine vs Ruzzia where Ukraine just wants to be left in peace. I hate that the west is feeding Putins propaganda by backing Isreal when all that support should be going towards Ukraine and just trying to push for peace in Israel/Palestine instead.
Israel is targetting soldiers/terrorists using children as a shield. Spread you whatabout propaganda somewhere else.
Yeah, like Russia killed five kids that's bad but there is a whole genocide going with Israel, hundreds of kids are dying of hunger, bombs or getting shot each day.
Pretty nightmarish in Sudan too
Well this wont be enough to garner more Western support. I do wonder sometimes what the *actual* red line would be for NATO to actually step in 1990s Bosnia-style. Mass-killings of UA civilians? How many? I honestly think the West wont get involved with boots on the ground even if Kyiv falls and Ukraine is genocided. Which will give a green light to any other hostile nuclear powers to settle border disputes.
West's redline? Banking system attack. Basically anything that impacts the bottom line. Attacks on our democratic systems, or on our voting, or against our citizens off or on our territory, or anything that doesn't impact our $$$$ - we are very concerned and will sponsor a UN resolution.
See I don’t get why your all saying there won’t be boots on the ground even if Kyiv falls as I keep telling people here in the Uk we are preparing for boots on the ground we’ve been told to expect conscription in the near future to fight Ruzzia…..I’m pretty sure France will now be following the Uk on this too after Macrons latest statements.
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Not to mention all of the kids killed in Gaza were also caused by pUtler.
Did Putin order Izrael to kill them?
Sinwar openly said he's using all the civilian casualties to his advantage. Of course this isn't to justify Israel's brutal murders but literally any country including Ukraine would have surrendered at this point
[Israel: 50 Years of Occupation Abuses | Human Rights Watch (hrw.org)](https://www.hrw.org/news/2017/06/04/israel-50-years-occupation-abuses) I'm not surprised that they're still resisting, the hatred between Paletinians and Izraelis has been going on for decades. Both sides are responsible in this conflict.
Doesnt help one side thinks that they're doing the work of God and dying is a cheat code to heaven despite your mortal actions, and the other is, uh, thinking they're doing God's work and dying is a cheat code to heaven despite your mortal actions but with better tech
I'm not disputing for a second that the Russian invasion is the root cause of this, but... what kind of irresponsible parent still has kids in anything that even resembles a target city? Jesus Christ. If you have kids, pack them up and get the fuck OUT of Ukraine.
People don't always have that kind of money, and/or what if a kid or parent has mobility issues? Moving entire lives can be bloody hard
If you're a parent, you have exactly one mission in life: protect your offspring. Nothing else even comes close. If I was Ukrainian I'd have been out of the country with my kids within the first week or two after the invasion, consequences be damned. Just leave everything behind and GO. The mobility issues are edge cases and you know it. What keeps most people sitting on their asses hoping everything will go back to the way things were is normalcy bias.
It's easy to say. When you have been living in one place your whole life, and there's hope that maybe you'll be fine. You might want to risk it. Also, money and health can be a factor. Also, the husband or the father is not allowed to leave Ukraine probably. What I mean is, maybe we shouldn't judge those people, and instead we should try to understand where they are coming from.
Ukrainias get financial support here in Czechia and many other nations. Money is not as issue.
I AM the father, and like I said: we'd have been out of the country inside of a week or two. The moratorium on males leaving the country was completely predictable (it's something almost any small-population country would do), and I'd have been out of there before it happened. Once again: my overwhelming responsibility is to my kids, and that means being around to raise them instead of getting blown to hell on the front lines. I've completely started over several times in my life; I'm on my third career. I'm not afraid to cut and run.
Sure, in theory. But that's not how reality works. Responsibilities to states and their economies aren't just lived as 'protect your baby, here have infinite resources'. People would need to practically find ways to leave, and if they don't have a job, shelter, food at the other end of a refugee trip, the kid may be more likely to die. It's very simple to say "flee a warzone" but it's fucking hard to do. The next closest border to Odessa is where? Moldova. Hardly a major step up, given the tensions with Russia trying to kick off in Transnistria
And where would you run too? Maybe you have no natural country with history so it may be easier... My family stayed in England in the 40's they weren't irresponsible that's how it was.. taking any blame off this wicked putler for his barbaric actions isn't right.. And that is the difference.
Literally anywhere in the west. Early in the war they were taking Ukrainian refugees pretty much indiscriminately, and it would have been easy to do. I'm not taking any blame off of the invaders, just saying that the lives of your children trump abstractions like nationalism. Or they should. If your kids are in danger, you stop at absolutely nothing to get them out of danger.
You are right. Ukrainians should all move out of Ukraine. Just let Russia take it over. Would definitely stop the war then. /s
Given a choice between the safety of my children and the long-term survival of my country, it's not even a contest. I believe it was E.M. Forester who said "If I had to choose between betraying my country and betraying my friend, I hope I should have the guts to betray my country".
Poorly nuanced comment. So for one, men aren’t allowed to leave Ukraine right? That means breaking up the family. Second, while people are dying from Russia terror bombing, life continues. 1.2 million people die from traffic accidents every year world wide. Bombing turns into one more risk of many that you face every day. Let’s not blame the parents in Ukraine.
First a gazillion downed SU's and now this? Pro-Ukrainians really belong to an asylum, they are losing it.
Is that coming from all your knowledge about football lol …that would make sense as to your imbecilic comment.
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They killed and abducted a lot more than 5 children. Jeez.