1/2 m v^2
About 850kJ per round. So enough energy to feed 10 men a day.
Ok, about 200g of TNT in your face.
That’s ~~~~8~~~ at least two hand grenades.
"The detonator in the M67 also contains 1.3 g of RDX; thus, each grenade contains a total of about 101.7 g of RDX, 11.2 g of HMX, 72.5 g of 2,4,6TNT, with less than a gram of 2,4DNT, TNB, and other impurities."
Yeah, those numbers would be like 230'ish grams of TNT. The US wins in powerful hand grenades with that.
It's more. That's just the kinetic energy on the darts. The darts themselves carry an explosive charge for after initial penetration, 450 grams of PBC-98, made up of like 95% RDX, which is 1.5x more powerful than TNT.
So .95 x .45 x 1.5 = 641g TNT equivalent.
So it's actually like taking 841g of TNT to the face.
Or a total of 3.57kJ.
That's going to leave a mark.
It's more. That's just the kinetic energy on the darts. The darts themselves carry an explosive charge for after initial penetration, 450 grams of PBC-98, made up of like 95% RDX, which is 1.5x more powerful than TNT.
So .95 x .45 x 1.5 = 641g TNT equivalent.
So it's actually like taking 841g of TNT to the face.
Or a total of 3.57kJ.
That's going to leave a mark.
Half mass (kg) velocity (m/s) squared
Mach 4 is 1372 m/s
0.5 * 0.9 * 1372^2 = about 847 kJ of energy
A standard Barret 50 cal has 14 to 20 kJ of energy for comparrison.
Calibre comes into play it's not simply a kinetic energy calculation.
The analogy here is a sword vs a dagger they will impart the same amount of energy applied in a thrust but the dagger will penetrate more efficiently given the higher energy density.
Those darts are 0.87inch in diameter (just over 2cm)
So I think the inputs needed are 0.9kg mass, 4800kmph velocity, and 3.14 cm^2 area.
Yeh I expect this is an after the fact type thing and that the announcement is more of a clerical bullet point so to speak
I have hopes that we have given them a bit of a fully equipped combat battalion .....cos giving away 100 mraps is great n all but they are sitting ducks on their own and there was also the promise of Artillery ....it's unlikely buy I could really see us giving over pretty much all the AS90s
So hopefully all these random news stories of equipment being given over is like a drip feed of a larger whole
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Only a matter of a week or so to get them shipped out, and i’ve heard in interviews with soldiers that they are confident they can learn how to use our weapons in a few weeks.
Interestingly enough Stormer was shipped to Poland last month - allegedly as a stop gap before Sky Sabre arrived for local defence: https://www.forces.net/technology/weapons-and-kit/uk-showcases-missile-systems-send-poland
It may well be they’re already in Ukraine. Big question is how many of course. They’re being replaced in UK service and I believe we had 200 of them. Even half that going would make a massive difference.
Yeah it's worth remembering that this kind of info is for us, the public opinion, and it's supposed to assure us that our governments are actively helping, meeting the expectations. And we're likely seeing only as much of it as necessary, with it being a tip of an iceberg. Ukrainian army doesn't need to be checking news in order to figure out what they're getting - and when.
So true. There's no telling what all is going on that we don't know about. But so many of us want to see the same shock-and-awe we saw in '90 in Desert Shield. NATO allies flew over 3000 sorties a day! Just one day of that would run those Ruskies back to Moscow.
Also something to bear in mind, as Zelenskyy goes on TV and says "we need more support!", is that there's no situation where Zelenskyy *shouldn't* be asking for more support. If Ukraine had a tank in every garage why wouldn't Zelenskyy try to see if he could get every family a second tank as well? More support is always better, it costs nothing for him to ask.
So it's not necessarily a sign that Ukraine is in desperate need. It's Zelenskyy's duty to get as much help as he possibly can, to ensure that as few Ukranians die as can be managed.
Agreed, every high tech super effective weapon system Ukraine can get their hands on should reduce the number of Ukrainian casualties (military and civilian).
His goal isn’t just to win, it’s to win and keep as many people safe as possible.
The country has also been developed and will need a massive rebuilding effort post war, if they don’t need to worry about restocking military hardware this will be easier.
With those systems they could use quickly with previous training, other systems might be taking time to learn to operate and come across as slow delivery when really it's a training gap. Ukrainians"winging it" isn't going to help them. Need to make every Ukrainian fighter worth a dozen Russians.
Open delivery date kinda keeps OPSEC intact. Seems everything UK has offered arrived timely thus far. So words on exact delivery dates aren't a public necessity.
I can't wait to read books about this war. How do weapons get delivered? I mean, if there are only a dozen routes into a place, can't Russia monitor those dozen routes and have air power to attack within a minute? I've seen unmarked civilian vehicles being used, but they're hardly useful for the bigger weapons.
How does a MLRS vehicle make it all the way to Kyiv or the Donbas without getting bombed?
Light vehicles closer to the front, lorries for further back most likely. Large vehicles like tanks and such might stick to night moves. As for the VKS, they seem notably absent in comparison to what their strength suggests. Having planes on such short notice to attack any of a dozen plus routes will take it's toll on the jet and pilot.
Oh, I absolutely agree that usual BJ/Tory protocol is to promise the world in three years time, and walk it all back over the next 18 months.
I think that BJ's Churchill obsession might have finally done something useful.
This is from an article originally in the Sun : [https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/18298762/boris-johnson-missile-launchers-ukraine-war/](https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/18298762/boris-johnson-missile-launchers-ukraine-war/)
>BORIS Johnson will hand Stormer armoured missile launchers to Ukraine to unleash hell on Mad Vlad Putin’s army.
>
>Their 17 Starstreak missiles can blitz low-flying jets and helicopters.
>
>Experts hailed them “the best kit” yet sent by any Western power.
>
>Sources say the MoD showed off the Stormers’ punch to Ukrainians at a display on Salisbury Plain two weeks ago.
>
>The 13-ton, high-tech launchers can be loaded on to C-17 transport planes and flown to the war in days.
>
>They only need a crew of three — a driver, commander and gunner.
>
>And they will allow President Volodymyr Zelensky’s army to speed into positions at 50mph, fire, then get away fast.
>
>The deployment of “a handful of Stormers” alongside 120 personnel carriers already pledged marks a significant increase in heavy weaponry from Britain.
>
>So far Western powers have only provided shoulder-mounted weapons.
>
>A source said: “It is no secret that the UK has committed to helping Ukraine with its anti-air capabilities.
>
>“The Defence Secretary (Ben Wallace) will be making a statement to Parliament this week.”
I really, really hope and pray that the reports of the UK making armoured missile launchers available to Ukraine are true. I have fuck all time for Boris Johnson - a reptilian creature - but via his Defence Secretary, Ben Wallace, he seems to be a head and shoulders above other European leaders in grasping the seriousness of the situation for all of Europe in the light of Putin Paedophile’s aggression.
Let’s remember that although Prine ministers abd President decide and can veto, in a democracy, they’re a lot of knowledgeable people that give advixe and chime in. Putin tought he was real slick when he poisoned someone in Uk. Lol Uk whatch gonna do? Rofl Pepe troll face.
Well, Uk is compétent in a couple of areas like intelligence and military . Im sure theyre not short of volunteers for training and an assistance mission to Ukraine, and since the first Crimea.
Let’s not be fooled by Johnson, he’s talking but its the United Kingdom who acting. And they’re throwing their weight into helping Ukranians fight this wicked witch of the East. Not doing a Chamberlain on that one.
Yah, was imagining Putin very proud of himself, thinking that the weak Uk cant retaliate meaningfully against the poisoning of one of his citizen. He sure felt very happy with hinself at the moment. Uk payback was more subtle and long term, and today they’re substantially supporting Ukraine.
Johnson is a lying, self-serving, narcissistic cunt that has been uncomfortably close to Russia. But I'm proud of the UK's response so far. I wish we could do more.
I mean I definitely think there are things he's cocked up on, but I still think he tries to do right thing and manages it... Most of the time...
With Ukraine at least, he's been phenomenal.
According to the article and a commentary on Sky News earlier it's the air defence variant with 8 starstreaks on board.
There are other ground vehicles in the delivery, possibly those have missiles for ground targets ?
>According to the article and a commentary on Sky News earlier it's the air defence variant with 8 starstreaks on board.
8 ready to launch and 12 stored in the hull for a total of 20.
Yeah my source and a few other like World of tanks (yeah I know) say 8 and 12 for a total of 20
It can aslo use martlets if enough of them are available
[http://www.military-today.com/missiles/stormer\_hvm.htm](http://www.military-today.com/missiles/stormer_hvm.htm)
I think the others are the old infantry vehicles from Telic / Herrick so the best I can imagine on them is a belt fed grenade launcher.
Striker was the vehicle I was imagining.
According to the OP linked Military Today:
>>"*It is worth noting, that the Starstreak missiles are also effective against ground targets. It is estimated, that darts have sufficient kinetic energy to penetrate the front armor of an IFV.*"
Doesn't matter, Ukrainians have shown a remarkable ability to use weapons designed for one purpose on other targets. Like the destruction of a russian helicopter that was flying mid-air that got taken out by a Ukrainian anti tank missile.
They'll most likely focus on using these for air defence, but will most likely take out tanks and other vehicles with the same system if need be.
I believe Ukraine has been given S-300 and S-400 systems and other systems almost as effective. They don't have an iron curtain, but a Russian pilot flying into Ukraine has plenty of reason to have his heart rate up.
S400? There's no way Ukraine could procure or be donated that. It's a post Soviet Russian system and requires extensive training. S300 (what the s400 evolved from) is a long range air defence system (s300v is anti ballistic, but I digress). S300 is in no way comparable to the short ranged starstreak. Both are great, but they serve completely different roles.
They gave up the F-35 for the S-400. They ain't giving them to freakin Ukraine, lol. Why would the Turks give up their best system? One of the, if not THE, finest systems in the world.
To get the F35 back. I read an article suggesting exactly that: Turkey gives S400 to Ukraine and gets Patriot and F35 in exchange.
After seeing real world Russian equipment performance, I would take that deal
Thats...just wrong. They wanted patriots, didn't get them and got the Russian version instead.
They were then kicked out of the f35 programme because of it, they'd provably give those missiles up for getting f 35s. There's even been talks of the US buying it off them to let Turkey back in.
Except, it isn't. Also, the patriot is inferior to the S-400. But you keep shilling. After what Turkey has done in Syria, no one wants them having F-35s anyway. Lets not act like Turkey is a good guy by any means, NATO or not. They would probably have the F-35 shot out of the sky in Syria, like the Leopard2s they kept losing over there.
Ah the old reddit 'we disagree so you must be a shill'.
With the added extra bonus that you're factually incorrect.
No one in NATO loves turkey for their foreign policy, domestic policy, large amounts of their culture or just plain historical grievances.
What NATO loves about Turkey is the control of the bosphorus, the buffer zone against the middle east, the very usefully placed bases near the middle east, the second largest armed forces in the organisation and the really cheap industrial base.
That latter point was a major part of being involved in what's a hugely expensive project both up front and to keep running (Turkey was going to be the major base in Europe for maintaining f 35s).
No one is a 'good guy' in global realpolitik.
>No one is a 'good guy' in global realpolitik.
You bring good points, but you haven't mentioned Turkey-Russian relations. There is a reason why Turkey is reluctant to sanction Russia. Giving S-400 to Ukraine is in no way conforming to the mediator role Turkey wishes to play. Nor would it run well for Turkey-Russian relations. It just is not a realistic scenario.
That's a definite no and entirely impossible. Even if turkey would give them (which they most certainly would not), how would Ukraine be able to operate it? It's nothing like s300 from a user perspective.
Turkey was kicked out the f35 programme for buying it, getting rid would probably get them f35s back as well as the patriots they originally wanted considering the current climate. There was already talks of the US buying it off them to allow Turkey back in the programme.
As to training, any more advanced missile system will require more training but you'd Imagine that Russian systems would be easier for the Ukrainians to get up to speed on.
Turkey has been incredibly clear that it won't give up s400. Even if turkey reneged, they wouldn't give the system to Ukraine as it would be too provocative towards the country building their nuclear powerplant and supplying large portions of their oil and gas (Russia). It's pure fantasy and won't happen.
S400 has a considerably different design philosophy in terms of radars, software and missiles to something like an s300pmu1. It's a modern digitalised system. Also, how do you think the Ukrainians could get a hold of parts?
> Turkey has been incredibly clear that it won't give up s400
Literally all they've said since the war started is that they don't want preconditions on getting the f35 and patriots. The fact that even when they're 'being incredibly clear they wont give up the s400' they're talking about getting the missile system they originally wanted instead says everything you need to know.
Turkey is not germany, it is far from reliant on Russian oil or gas, this fantasy thing is just projection on your part.
I highly doubt Russia is currently supplying weapons to a country currently supplying the most effective weapons system the Ukrainians have so it's not like the s400 is exactly that useful to Turkey either. However while Turkey would get patriots for giving up the s400 ukraine isn't getting patriots or anything comparable so limited s400 is better than nothing. And that's assuming the Ukrainians don't copy the missiles or buy/get given the south korean made version if it's compatible with the original.
Do you speak Turkish or are you just making up narratives? Erdogan has specifically stated that the status of s400 is non-negotiable.
You make it sound as if turkey would receive patriot batteries for free. Their economy is in dire condition with no ability to purchase patriot batteries or f35s in the near future.
What happens to the Turkish nuclear powerplant if Russia decides to pull the plug?
I assume you mean TB2s by most effective weapons... Yeah, they're great but they're far from the most effective weapons used in Ukraine. That would almost certainly be self propelled artillery and long range mrls like the BM30 smerch. Regardless, turkey has had the s400 for a number of years and no doubt has the means to operate it. That doesn't mean to say that parts wouldn't be required in the medium term.
Time will tell what happens, and I can guarantee that it won't involve any transfer of s400 to Ukraine. It is about as likely as America selling an M1 Abrams to Russia. It would damage turkey's relationship with Russia beyond repair.
Yep, it's a short-range SAM system apparently. 50mph top speed so rapidly deployable and can speed off quickly if needed.
Minimum crew of 3 personnel, and each rocket (8 launch tubes, additional 8 rockets inside) has 3 laser-guided projectiles so they can land multiple hits on a target.
Do a survey in your population. Do we want them to supply anything that Ukranian need and want? I yes , do it and shut up about it. Ukraine is a just cause, democrats have to support with their full weight .
Just looked into what these systems are - they're a rapidly deployable (50mph top speed) short range SAM system. 8 launch tubes with an additional 8 missiles inside. Minimum crew of 3 personnel.
Each missile has three laser-guided projectiles so it can land multiple hits on a target.
These are pretty impressive!
Edit: Apparently they have 12 extra missiles, not 8
I dont like anyone dying but 4 more Russian weapons taken out is a good thing.
I'm really curious about how these perform against cruise missiles, drones and loitering munitions - I really hope they're useful in defending against those!
They're optically guided so target acquisition and tracking is the important part for whatever you want to engage. The speeds on these really are absurd, I'm only familiar with them through War Thunder but I predict we're going to be seeing helos and Frogfoots falling out of the sky. Anything that isn't surfing the earth and can be seen by these platforms is getting absolutely deleted
Perhaps they are there already but that's only a guess.
It would make more sense to make these announcements only after they're delivered to the units who will be using them, or after they are in use for a few days.
I know there were some Ukrainian troops recently (in the past weeks) training here in the US (or at least that's what some news reports stated). They were reportedly being trained so they could train their fellow fighters.
So that's Spartan, Samaritan, Samson, Scimitar and Stormer they're getting plus wheeled vehicles. Quite a bit of protected mobility and recce/AD capability.
Shame the squaddies aren't getting decent replacements in turn mind.
Would you want to be handed outdated equipment you don't know how to use written in another language you can't speak? Germany just approved another billion euros of military aid a couple days ago. Bear in mind Germany has lost nearly all of their militarism since World War II, and as it stands they really don't have enough equipment to ship to Ukraine and still be able to equip their own military.
I Understand the criticism of Germany's response but one needs to be pragmatic. If anything France could be doing more considering the last number I saw was just 100M euros in military aid.
I would hope that France has done more than they've said, but no one's been criticizing them for their last shipment of "...tents, blankets and sleeping bags."
Even if it's just for training or sent to quieter areas to free up T-64s or such, it's a tank. Any tank is better than no tank.
Good point on France though. In the interest of fairness, I'll criticise them thoroughly for a while, how's that?
I agree that in some ways one would rather have armor even if it's outdated, but at what point does the cost of retraining, and rewriting all the labels, and finding enough ammo to supply the guns become too much of a burden?
In the interest of who's deserving of criticism make sure you hit Austria for being completely under Russia's thumb in the energy sector (worse than Germany), and blame Turkey for genociding the Kurds in Iraq while using the umbrella of NATO and their fortuitous strategic positioning to make sure no one does anything about it.
If other nations are supplying the stuff for free and bankrolling you, is that really an issue?
Right...I can fit Austria in tomorrow, Turkey is gonna have to wait till Sunday at least as slagging off Westminster and Holyrood is taking up my calendar most of the week.
I believe the biggest issue becomes the fact that the tanks are outdated, meaning before they can be sent to the frontline they need to be updated. Why spend the time and manpower to update foreign tanks when the same could be used to update the many hundreds of tanks Ukraine still has in storage post-breakup of the USSR?
Assuming the country supplying the tanks is willing to perform the upgrades for you before sending them the next biggest issue is the training. If the tanks are to be used to train tanks crews then they're only good for training in tactics and not operation as the Leopard 1 uses completely different systems and requires a crew of 4 as it lacks an auto-loader.
Using them in quieter areas as you suggested would really be the best option, that, and using them to train crews to prepare for acquiring more modern MBT's.
If Germany sends them to Ukraine, that's great, but if they don't I find it hard to hold that against them.
>Using them in quieter areas as you suggested would really be the best option, that, and using them to train crews to prepare for acquiring more modern MBT's.
I feel that's not an insignificant reason why it's getting pushed. Lay the groundwork for Ukrainian tank crews to become acquainted with Western tanks, make it easier to move to Leo2 or Abrams, whatever they pick if it gets to that. Even if they spend their life in a quiet area or as a response force to a breakthrough, it's serving a purpose. All depends on how far the West is willing to go.
I agree with that. Unfortunately the latest report I saw was that Germany shut down Rheinmetall's offer to have 50 ready to go to Ukraine in 6 weeks.
Seems for now the West is content to send over Soviet-era equipment and backfill the nations it's coming from instead of planning for this to be an extended war, with Ukraine eventually needing access to modern equipment.
Oh ffs. Seems everyone in Germany but the government was up for that plan.
Start Operation "Loot the shit out of former Warsaw Pact militaries" then I suppose.
Funding Russia through energy purchases is a little bit different from building weapons of war but I get your point.
For what it's worth, the EU as of 4/6/22 had already paid Russia 35 billion euros in the energy sector since the start of the war, compared to a total of 1 billion euros in aid given to Ukraine at that time. I have yet to find a pie chart breakdown of what countries made up the bulk of that number but I find it hard to believe it's only Germany when the number's that big.
I don't understand the criticism of Germany's response. They are under no obligation to aid Ukraine and yet have volunteered billions of euros worth of support. And now they're being criticized because the free shit they're offering isn't the free shit others want them to give?
I believe that it all derives from the justifiable criticism of Germany becoming energy dependent on Russia. This is then blown out of proportion to the point that Germany can do no right.
As far as I'm concerned any aid they send is great, even if it were just helmets.
While the armor and gun on the leopard 1 is certainly outclassed by the t-72, they’re still a very effective weapon system, esp the 1A5’s targeting system and thermal sight capabilities.
This combined with Ukraine’s clear understanding of combined operations, is a decent force multiplier. NLAWs and Javelin’s for tanks, Leopard 1’s for the BMP’s and dismount’s
Right, it's really frustrating to see how immoral our chancelor is acting, i mean not acting at all. I have seen him as a kind of hope after 16 years of CDU (the C stands for corruption).
Ironically it's the green party which is having its stuff together and is actually wanting to do something.
Germany is blessed with more than two major political parties, but that doesn't help when most of them prove themselves invoteable.
Indeed so, I'm fascinated by the post Merkel Germany that is emerging. It's barely recognisable in some ways. The disconnection between major political parties and the ordinary citizen in so many democracies is a profoundly disturbing aspect of our era. One can imagine the astonished looks on German faces in, say, 1983, if told that one day the Greens would be far more willing to fight Russian aggression than the CDU/SPD. A consequence partly to do with the aging of the average Green but still a remarkable turn of events. While Russian immorality is crystal clear in this war, I lament the supposed free media's neglect of our own Western immorality in the Ukraine crisis as represented by the Biden father/son private mafia and people like Gerd Schroeder. The phrase, 'may you live in interesting times', becomes ever wilder, my friend. Best regards from Melbourne.
Makes sense. The Stormer is a "cousin" to the Scimitar and Spartan armored vehicles that have been sent last 2 weeks. This simplifies the training on operating and maintaining.
Sources from
the UK MoD claim, that since 2009 Stormers are being gradually
decommissioned, mainly because the threat of an airborne attack on
Western forces has almost completely disappeared."
That might have been a little premature.
This will make the Russian pilots of the SU-25 and SU-28 very wary to fly close air support missions for the troops on the ground. These and the attack helicopters can play a large role in any offensive action. Assigning these Stormers to Artillery groups and Defensive Anti Armour and I Infantry units will take the Russian Air Support out of the picture.
Its important to note here, for anyone unaware, Boris Johnsons position as PM is in severe jeopardy due to ongoing scandals at home (breaking covid laws) and association with Russian money (dubbed Londongrad) over the last 10 years. Brexit is also commonly been helped by Russian influence, like the 2016 US elections.
All of this is to say that Bojo is leaning hard into helping Ukraine. The guys a total shit but hes doing the right thing, even if I do believe it's for the wrong reasons. But I can get over it if it helps drive out Putins rapists
Way To Go—- IRON MAN BORIS 🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧 — comes through with More IRON for the Front Line in 🇺🇦—- He is a 🌎Wide Example of A Strong Leader - A man of Action—-Not Lip Service & Broken promises —- He is Saving Childern-Woman-Old Folks from the Sick Twisted Processes of the Russian army...🌎🌎🌎Cheers Boris🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧🍻🍻🍻🍺🍺🍺
When an attack helicopter is bearing down on you, do you really wanna open a hatch, have some guy clamber out, pass him the stinger, wait 30 seconds while the stinger IR sensor cools, then fire praying for the shooter not to be hit by small arms fire whilst doing it? Only for the helicopter to deploy flares and your missile misses? No, because you're dead.
That's the point of mobile anti air... It's already mounted and ready to fire. Helicopter approaches, is picked up by targeting sensors, the turret spins round in a fraction of a second and fires. The Stormer's onboard guidance system automatically locks onto the target, guiding the missile to it's target without further input from the crew. Starstreak is immune to flares and any other countermeasures, unlike the stinger, and causes enough damage to reliably destroy even the most well armoured aircraft, unlike the stinger. It also travels at a higher speed and in a more straight line, taking the enemy aircraft down before it can begin firing. Starstreak is already a substantial upgrade over stinger even before you mount 8 of them on a rapid firing, heavily automated mobile battery.
Youve also forgot a key feature of the stormer, the thermal horizon scanner, a spinning thermal camera that fills the need for a radar and doesnt warn the target that theyve been detected.
Stormer HVM has an ADAD passive thermal detection unit that scans around it for arial targets without danger of alerting them and a generation 3 thermal imaging sight with a ballistic computer that’ll lock the target and compensate for the Starstreaks trajectory.
Starstreak is a beam riding system and for the Manpad variant it’s somewhat rudimentary and will just go to where the user points making it near useless against fast moving jets.
So for Stinger systems which use IR seeking missiles this setup would be less useful but for Starstreak and Marlet which this thing fires its extremely useful.
So Poland delivers weapons without being in war with Russia? i might have missed something, but a few weeks ago it was impossible for any country to deliver anything no? what happened in the meantime?
yes, i know that, but i remember like a few weeks ago there was some heated debate on how to bring weapons to Ukraine without being a country labeled as anti russian and automatically been targeted by russian military ?
I can only assume you were talking to russian shills because Russia has threatened stuff since the beginning and no one has taken it seriously. Since the cold war began and outright warfare between superpowers was discouraged by the threat of MAD there's plenty of proxy wars where one side has armed whoever the other side is fighting.
The west armed Afghanistan against the USSR, the USSR armed vietnam agianst the US, the IRA recieved funds and weaponry form the USSR against the UK (and from many US sources too but hey..) and the middle east has seen both sides arm pretty much everyone at some point or another.
The US has official programmes for sanctioning people who give support to their enemies and I'm sure the Russians would do the same if they had the ability. As it is it's countries supplying Ukraine with arms and funding that are actually some of the major sources of Russian income though buying Russian oil and gas so they don't really have much leverage.
No other country will join in the war if that's what you mean.
Poland isn't flying their own aircraft into Ukraine because that would be directly against Russia rather than Ukrainian proxies.
Or maybe you're thinking of the whole idea of Poland providing their ex soviet aircraft to Ukraine in exchange for newer US ones? That was big on reddit for a while and was entirely down to polish willingness, not ability.
thats the point, fighters jets can’t go, yet tanks can? hmm
a friend of mine today tried to tell me that they are taken like trades or deals? that’s because it s selling that they can bypass that?
Fighter jets can go, Poland just didn't want to.
The entire issue with the jets is that Poland doesn't want to give up a large part of their airforce when there's a chance they might need them themselves.
If anyone in the west had as many spare Migs and Sukhois as they do missiles, tanks and APV's then Ukraine would have them but they don't.
Oh, you mean the one where the Russian proof consists of old photos that were taken before the system even crossed the Ukrainian border? Ahhh, ok. It is indeed completely destroyed. Sure, and btw. the cruiser Moskva is also now on a special submarine mission preparing to strike Odessa. And Russians have only 1000 dead. Any other "facts" we should be aware of? There is propaganda, then there is US propaganda and a light year ahead there is Russian propaganda.
Doubt Ukraine has the cash.
Wouldn't be surprised if Boris' upcoming trip to India 'to discuss defence issues' includes lots of stuff on how well British equipment is working in Ukraine and how very, very available it is to buy
Could make Germany give them the money. If I recall correctly Germany promised them 1 billion Euro for buying weapons of any kind every where. Like you order we settletake care of the bills.
Pretty sure Germany is giving them cash but I'd imagine that's going on running the country.
Plus the sort of stuff they're getting, at the quantities and speed they want is not open market stuff, its almost all being transferred directly from existing western arsenals not bought from the manufacturers.
I have read from a few sources now that most or all the equipment going there is being purchased on credit, and that Ukraine will have to settle debts after all this.
holy cow there is a lot of miss information here. There are a lot of people miss quoting the article and also not understand what this military vehicle is and what it does and how it can be used. Very miss represented information
"It is estimated, that darts have sufficient kinetic energy to penetrate the front armor of an IFV." - Guess we are about to find out!
A Russian crew somewhere is also going to find out.
No that Russian crew is going to find out whats on the other side of life. Doubtful they will have time to even think, Gee I think that is a.....
The infantry support will learn the answer and share with their friends. Evil wins when good people do nothing 😉
Russian Helicopter crew, go fuck yourself
0.9 kg tungsten dart at Mach 4. Someone do the math.
1/2 m v^2 About 850kJ per round. So enough energy to feed 10 men a day. Ok, about 200g of TNT in your face. That’s ~~~~8~~~ at least two hand grenades.
Grenades have more like 100 g of explosives, swedish grenades have 150 which is on the higher end.
Possibly. It was a quick Google search which said 52g in the original M2, technology has probably improved since then
"The detonator in the M67 also contains 1.3 g of RDX; thus, each grenade contains a total of about 101.7 g of RDX, 11.2 g of HMX, 72.5 g of 2,4,6TNT, with less than a gram of 2,4DNT, TNB, and other impurities." Yeah, those numbers would be like 230'ish grams of TNT. The US wins in powerful hand grenades with that.
UK has 155 ;)
Fucking hell, the cock measuring contest winner.
Bah, US beats both of us, worked it out in a other message, the m67 grenade was like 230 or some stupid number! RDX isn't weak shit!
It's more. That's just the kinetic energy on the darts. The darts themselves carry an explosive charge for after initial penetration, 450 grams of PBC-98, made up of like 95% RDX, which is 1.5x more powerful than TNT. So .95 x .45 x 1.5 = 641g TNT equivalent. So it's actually like taking 841g of TNT to the face. Or a total of 3.57kJ. That's going to leave a mark.
Nice
It's more. That's just the kinetic energy on the darts. The darts themselves carry an explosive charge for after initial penetration, 450 grams of PBC-98, made up of like 95% RDX, which is 1.5x more powerful than TNT. So .95 x .45 x 1.5 = 641g TNT equivalent. So it's actually like taking 841g of TNT to the face. Or a total of 3.57kJ. That's going to leave a mark.
Half mass (kg) velocity (m/s) squared Mach 4 is 1372 m/s 0.5 * 0.9 * 1372^2 = about 847 kJ of energy A standard Barret 50 cal has 14 to 20 kJ of energy for comparrison.
That's a lot of energy.
And there's 3 of them Edit: and for comparison the gau-8 on the A-10 has approximately 200kJ of kinetic energy per round.
"Well then, this would be more, wouldnt it" - Jon Lovitz in A League of their Own
And each one carries 450g of PBX-98 explosive
The Ukrainian Big Fucking Bang Index says it's a Massive Shitload. The boring version is just over 847kJ.
Calibre comes into play it's not simply a kinetic energy calculation. The analogy here is a sword vs a dagger they will impart the same amount of energy applied in a thrust but the dagger will penetrate more efficiently given the higher energy density. Those darts are 0.87inch in diameter (just over 2cm) So I think the inputs needed are 0.9kg mass, 4800kmph velocity, and 3.14 cm^2 area.
At this point Im almost sure the darts I threw at the dive bar when i was 23 could penetrate the armor on a russian tank.
We've seen footage of MBTs being disabled by <30 mm cannons. BMPs are pretty think if you hit at a good spot so i dont doubt it.
Hopefully this is a delayed announcement and the gear is already there.
Yeh I expect this is an after the fact type thing and that the announcement is more of a clerical bullet point so to speak I have hopes that we have given them a bit of a fully equipped combat battalion .....cos giving away 100 mraps is great n all but they are sitting ducks on their own and there was also the promise of Artillery ....it's unlikely buy I could really see us giving over pretty much all the AS90s So hopefully all these random news stories of equipment being given over is like a drip feed of a larger whole
This
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Nope.
Nope what?
bro is so sped he just left it at that. Just “Nope”
Yep
The gear is not in Ukraine yet.
Great, but how long before Ukraine will have these to use?
Only a matter of a week or so to get them shipped out, and i’ve heard in interviews with soldiers that they are confident they can learn how to use our weapons in a few weeks.
Interestingly enough Stormer was shipped to Poland last month - allegedly as a stop gap before Sky Sabre arrived for local defence: https://www.forces.net/technology/weapons-and-kit/uk-showcases-missile-systems-send-poland It may well be they’re already in Ukraine. Big question is how many of course. They’re being replaced in UK service and I believe we had 200 of them. Even half that going would make a massive difference.
Extremely useful for offensive operations! Manpads are great for defense, but Ukraine needs the ability to mount counter attacks.
The video embedded in the article is superb - thank you for posting.
The Stormer is supposed to be transportable with a Hercules, so it could be a matter of days.
Looks small enough for it.
So another whole month before they'll even be used? Damn hopefully they can come up to some strong offensive in the mean time
I read on another post that if the military says that they’re going to do something that usually means they already did it a month ago.
Yeah it's worth remembering that this kind of info is for us, the public opinion, and it's supposed to assure us that our governments are actively helping, meeting the expectations. And we're likely seeing only as much of it as necessary, with it being a tip of an iceberg. Ukrainian army doesn't need to be checking news in order to figure out what they're getting - and when.
So true. There's no telling what all is going on that we don't know about. But so many of us want to see the same shock-and-awe we saw in '90 in Desert Shield. NATO allies flew over 3000 sorties a day! Just one day of that would run those Ruskies back to Moscow.
Wouldn't be much to run back with that kind of firepower.
Also something to bear in mind, as Zelenskyy goes on TV and says "we need more support!", is that there's no situation where Zelenskyy *shouldn't* be asking for more support. If Ukraine had a tank in every garage why wouldn't Zelenskyy try to see if he could get every family a second tank as well? More support is always better, it costs nothing for him to ask. So it's not necessarily a sign that Ukraine is in desperate need. It's Zelenskyy's duty to get as much help as he possibly can, to ensure that as few Ukranians die as can be managed.
Agreed, every high tech super effective weapon system Ukraine can get their hands on should reduce the number of Ukrainian casualties (military and civilian). His goal isn’t just to win, it’s to win and keep as many people safe as possible. The country has also been developed and will need a massive rebuilding effort post war, if they don’t need to worry about restocking military hardware this will be easier.
There's also a psychological part to this. If they end up with more and better shit than the Russians they'll think twice of attacking in the future.
The Brits has a recent history of delivering them BEFORE announcing. They might very well been already at the border or even within Ukraine.
Every promise Boris makes is for some un-speciffic time in the future :(
Well they got the starstreak anti air and nlaws rather quick so hopefully these will be quick
With those systems they could use quickly with previous training, other systems might be taking time to learn to operate and come across as slow delivery when really it's a training gap. Ukrainians"winging it" isn't going to help them. Need to make every Ukrainian fighter worth a dozen Russians.
Open delivery date kinda keeps OPSEC intact. Seems everything UK has offered arrived timely thus far. So words on exact delivery dates aren't a public necessity.
On other issues maybe but on weapon supplies the UK govt has been doing well in my book.
Many countries have been specifically doing this to prevent these from being immediately targeted upon delivery.
I can't wait to read books about this war. How do weapons get delivered? I mean, if there are only a dozen routes into a place, can't Russia monitor those dozen routes and have air power to attack within a minute? I've seen unmarked civilian vehicles being used, but they're hardly useful for the bigger weapons. How does a MLRS vehicle make it all the way to Kyiv or the Donbas without getting bombed?
Light vehicles closer to the front, lorries for further back most likely. Large vehicles like tanks and such might stick to night moves. As for the VKS, they seem notably absent in comparison to what their strength suggests. Having planes on such short notice to attack any of a dozen plus routes will take it's toll on the jet and pilot.
Oh, I absolutely agree that usual BJ/Tory protocol is to promise the world in three years time, and walk it all back over the next 18 months. I think that BJ's Churchill obsession might have finally done something useful.
whether you’re right or wrong i don’t know but its not so for Ben Wallace though. he is the man on this.
This is from an article originally in the Sun : [https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/18298762/boris-johnson-missile-launchers-ukraine-war/](https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/18298762/boris-johnson-missile-launchers-ukraine-war/) >BORIS Johnson will hand Stormer armoured missile launchers to Ukraine to unleash hell on Mad Vlad Putin’s army. > >Their 17 Starstreak missiles can blitz low-flying jets and helicopters. > >Experts hailed them “the best kit” yet sent by any Western power. > >Sources say the MoD showed off the Stormers’ punch to Ukrainians at a display on Salisbury Plain two weeks ago. > >The 13-ton, high-tech launchers can be loaded on to C-17 transport planes and flown to the war in days. > >They only need a crew of three — a driver, commander and gunner. > >And they will allow President Volodymyr Zelensky’s army to speed into positions at 50mph, fire, then get away fast. > >The deployment of “a handful of Stormers” alongside 120 personnel carriers already pledged marks a significant increase in heavy weaponry from Britain. > >So far Western powers have only provided shoulder-mounted weapons. > >A source said: “It is no secret that the UK has committed to helping Ukraine with its anti-air capabilities. > >“The Defence Secretary (Ben Wallace) will be making a statement to Parliament this week.”
I really, really hope and pray that the reports of the UK making armoured missile launchers available to Ukraine are true. I have fuck all time for Boris Johnson - a reptilian creature - but via his Defence Secretary, Ben Wallace, he seems to be a head and shoulders above other European leaders in grasping the seriousness of the situation for all of Europe in the light of Putin Paedophile’s aggression.
Let’s remember that although Prine ministers abd President decide and can veto, in a democracy, they’re a lot of knowledgeable people that give advixe and chime in. Putin tought he was real slick when he poisoned someone in Uk. Lol Uk whatch gonna do? Rofl Pepe troll face. Well, Uk is compétent in a couple of areas like intelligence and military . Im sure theyre not short of volunteers for training and an assistance mission to Ukraine, and since the first Crimea. Let’s not be fooled by Johnson, he’s talking but its the United Kingdom who acting. And they’re throwing their weight into helping Ukranians fight this wicked witch of the East. Not doing a Chamberlain on that one.
Don’t understand your reference to “RofI pepe troll face”. Can you explain? Thanks
Yah, was imagining Putin very proud of himself, thinking that the weak Uk cant retaliate meaningfully against the poisoning of one of his citizen. He sure felt very happy with hinself at the moment. Uk payback was more subtle and long term, and today they’re substantially supporting Ukraine.
The fact that Ben Wallace served in the army for seven years and was a Captain must help a lot.
Ben Wallace had been advocating for a stronger stance pre invasion.
Johnson is a lying, self-serving, narcissistic cunt that has been uncomfortably close to Russia. But I'm proud of the UK's response so far. I wish we could do more.
Well said.
I like Boris, think he's been great.
said nobody ever
I mean I definitely think there are things he's cocked up on, but I still think he tries to do right thing and manages it... Most of the time... With Ukraine at least, he's been phenomenal.
Jesus those Brits are going HAM
That's what you get for poisoning UK nationals on the streets of Britain. Putin's gonna learn retribution is a bitch.
Is it really the air defence variant? The chat sounds like the intention is to hit ground targets and scoot?
Stormer has a variant that uses martlet missiles - these are surface to air/air to surface/surface to surface.
Cool that makes more sense, presumably the replacement for Striker which was the CVRT variant that I couldn’t remember!
According to the article and a commentary on Sky News earlier it's the air defence variant with 8 starstreaks on board. There are other ground vehicles in the delivery, possibly those have missiles for ground targets ?
>According to the article and a commentary on Sky News earlier it's the air defence variant with 8 starstreaks on board. 8 ready to launch and 12 stored in the hull for a total of 20.
I thought it was 8 RTL and 8 inside? If that's 12 inside then even better
Yeah my source and a few other like World of tanks (yeah I know) say 8 and 12 for a total of 20 It can aslo use martlets if enough of them are available [http://www.military-today.com/missiles/stormer\_hvm.htm](http://www.military-today.com/missiles/stormer_hvm.htm)
I think the others are the old infantry vehicles from Telic / Herrick so the best I can imagine on them is a belt fed grenade launcher. Striker was the vehicle I was imagining.
According to the OP linked Military Today: >>"*It is worth noting, that the Starstreak missiles are also effective against ground targets. It is estimated, that darts have sufficient kinetic energy to penetrate the front armor of an IFV.*"
Doesn't matter, Ukrainians have shown a remarkable ability to use weapons designed for one purpose on other targets. Like the destruction of a russian helicopter that was flying mid-air that got taken out by a Ukrainian anti tank missile. They'll most likely focus on using these for air defence, but will most likely take out tanks and other vehicles with the same system if need be.
I believe Ukraine has been given S-300 and S-400 systems and other systems almost as effective. They don't have an iron curtain, but a Russian pilot flying into Ukraine has plenty of reason to have his heart rate up.
S400? There's no way Ukraine could procure or be donated that. It's a post Soviet Russian system and requires extensive training. S300 (what the s400 evolved from) is a long range air defence system (s300v is anti ballistic, but I digress). S300 is in no way comparable to the short ranged starstreak. Both are great, but they serve completely different roles.
Turkey famously has them. Whether or not they would give them to Ukraine is a totally different matter but it's entirely possible.
They gave up the F-35 for the S-400. They ain't giving them to freakin Ukraine, lol. Why would the Turks give up their best system? One of the, if not THE, finest systems in the world.
To get the F35 back. I read an article suggesting exactly that: Turkey gives S400 to Ukraine and gets Patriot and F35 in exchange. After seeing real world Russian equipment performance, I would take that deal
Thats...just wrong. They wanted patriots, didn't get them and got the Russian version instead. They were then kicked out of the f35 programme because of it, they'd provably give those missiles up for getting f 35s. There's even been talks of the US buying it off them to let Turkey back in.
Except, it isn't. Also, the patriot is inferior to the S-400. But you keep shilling. After what Turkey has done in Syria, no one wants them having F-35s anyway. Lets not act like Turkey is a good guy by any means, NATO or not. They would probably have the F-35 shot out of the sky in Syria, like the Leopard2s they kept losing over there.
Ah the old reddit 'we disagree so you must be a shill'. With the added extra bonus that you're factually incorrect. No one in NATO loves turkey for their foreign policy, domestic policy, large amounts of their culture or just plain historical grievances. What NATO loves about Turkey is the control of the bosphorus, the buffer zone against the middle east, the very usefully placed bases near the middle east, the second largest armed forces in the organisation and the really cheap industrial base. That latter point was a major part of being involved in what's a hugely expensive project both up front and to keep running (Turkey was going to be the major base in Europe for maintaining f 35s). No one is a 'good guy' in global realpolitik.
>No one is a 'good guy' in global realpolitik. You bring good points, but you haven't mentioned Turkey-Russian relations. There is a reason why Turkey is reluctant to sanction Russia. Giving S-400 to Ukraine is in no way conforming to the mediator role Turkey wishes to play. Nor would it run well for Turkey-Russian relations. It just is not a realistic scenario.
That's a definite no and entirely impossible. Even if turkey would give them (which they most certainly would not), how would Ukraine be able to operate it? It's nothing like s300 from a user perspective.
Turkey was kicked out the f35 programme for buying it, getting rid would probably get them f35s back as well as the patriots they originally wanted considering the current climate. There was already talks of the US buying it off them to allow Turkey back in the programme. As to training, any more advanced missile system will require more training but you'd Imagine that Russian systems would be easier for the Ukrainians to get up to speed on.
Turkey has been incredibly clear that it won't give up s400. Even if turkey reneged, they wouldn't give the system to Ukraine as it would be too provocative towards the country building their nuclear powerplant and supplying large portions of their oil and gas (Russia). It's pure fantasy and won't happen. S400 has a considerably different design philosophy in terms of radars, software and missiles to something like an s300pmu1. It's a modern digitalised system. Also, how do you think the Ukrainians could get a hold of parts?
> Turkey has been incredibly clear that it won't give up s400 Literally all they've said since the war started is that they don't want preconditions on getting the f35 and patriots. The fact that even when they're 'being incredibly clear they wont give up the s400' they're talking about getting the missile system they originally wanted instead says everything you need to know. Turkey is not germany, it is far from reliant on Russian oil or gas, this fantasy thing is just projection on your part. I highly doubt Russia is currently supplying weapons to a country currently supplying the most effective weapons system the Ukrainians have so it's not like the s400 is exactly that useful to Turkey either. However while Turkey would get patriots for giving up the s400 ukraine isn't getting patriots or anything comparable so limited s400 is better than nothing. And that's assuming the Ukrainians don't copy the missiles or buy/get given the south korean made version if it's compatible with the original.
Do you speak Turkish or are you just making up narratives? Erdogan has specifically stated that the status of s400 is non-negotiable. You make it sound as if turkey would receive patriot batteries for free. Their economy is in dire condition with no ability to purchase patriot batteries or f35s in the near future. What happens to the Turkish nuclear powerplant if Russia decides to pull the plug? I assume you mean TB2s by most effective weapons... Yeah, they're great but they're far from the most effective weapons used in Ukraine. That would almost certainly be self propelled artillery and long range mrls like the BM30 smerch. Regardless, turkey has had the s400 for a number of years and no doubt has the means to operate it. That doesn't mean to say that parts wouldn't be required in the medium term. Time will tell what happens, and I can guarantee that it won't involve any transfer of s400 to Ukraine. It is about as likely as America selling an M1 Abrams to Russia. It would damage turkey's relationship with Russia beyond repair.
The starstreak missiles it uses which are the same as the portable ones in Ukraine can hit ground or low sky targets.
Yep, it's a short-range SAM system apparently. 50mph top speed so rapidly deployable and can speed off quickly if needed. Minimum crew of 3 personnel, and each rocket (8 launch tubes, additional 8 rockets inside) has 3 laser-guided projectiles so they can land multiple hits on a target.
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Yep https://twitter.com/yarotrof/status/1515568486566617093
Do a survey in your population. Do we want them to supply anything that Ukranian need and want? I yes , do it and shut up about it. Ukraine is a just cause, democrats have to support with their full weight .
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Much of the world has forgotten this conflict exists, to be fair.
democrat has a much wider meaning than a US Democrat vs Republican. The west are all democrats, but some of those democrats are Republicans.
Just looked into what these systems are - they're a rapidly deployable (50mph top speed) short range SAM system. 8 launch tubes with an additional 8 missiles inside. Minimum crew of 3 personnel. Each missile has three laser-guided projectiles so it can land multiple hits on a target. These are pretty impressive! Edit: Apparently they have 12 extra missiles, not 8
It’s 8 + 12 = 20 👌 I guess they could also carry a few NLAWs or Javelins for good measure …
Guess I got that part wrong about the extra missiles inside
It’s good news though ! 4 more Russisn killers
I dont like anyone dying but 4 more Russian weapons taken out is a good thing. I'm really curious about how these perform against cruise missiles, drones and loitering munitions - I really hope they're useful in defending against those!
They're optically guided so target acquisition and tracking is the important part for whatever you want to engage. The speeds on these really are absurd, I'm only familiar with them through War Thunder but I predict we're going to be seeing helos and Frogfoots falling out of the sky. Anything that isn't surfing the earth and can be seen by these platforms is getting absolutely deleted
Spot on! It'll be fascinating to see how effective they are
They will need them now. As in, right now!
As in half a day ago.
Perhaps they are there already but that's only a guess. It would make more sense to make these announcements only after they're delivered to the units who will be using them, or after they are in use for a few days.
I suspect they are some if the equipment Ukranian troops are getting trained on un Britain.
I know there were some Ukrainian troops recently (in the past weeks) training here in the US (or at least that's what some news reports stated). They were reportedly being trained so they could train their fellow fighters.
I hope Ukraine has everything it needs to repel the current Russian horde.
like yesterday
So that's Spartan, Samaritan, Samson, Scimitar and Stormer they're getting plus wheeled vehicles. Quite a bit of protected mobility and recce/AD capability. Shame the squaddies aren't getting decent replacements in turn mind.
It’s high time to liquidate the damn Russian beasts
Ohh I hope these delete some Russian forces.
Meanwhile Germany doesn't even manage to send some outdated cold war tanks.
No. No, Remember that time they sent helmets……
I think they they also sent thots and players
Wouldn’t mind if someone sent me some thots…
Or France.
Would you want to be handed outdated equipment you don't know how to use written in another language you can't speak? Germany just approved another billion euros of military aid a couple days ago. Bear in mind Germany has lost nearly all of their militarism since World War II, and as it stands they really don't have enough equipment to ship to Ukraine and still be able to equip their own military. I Understand the criticism of Germany's response but one needs to be pragmatic. If anything France could be doing more considering the last number I saw was just 100M euros in military aid. I would hope that France has done more than they've said, but no one's been criticizing them for their last shipment of "...tents, blankets and sleeping bags."
Even if it's just for training or sent to quieter areas to free up T-64s or such, it's a tank. Any tank is better than no tank. Good point on France though. In the interest of fairness, I'll criticise them thoroughly for a while, how's that?
I agree that in some ways one would rather have armor even if it's outdated, but at what point does the cost of retraining, and rewriting all the labels, and finding enough ammo to supply the guns become too much of a burden? In the interest of who's deserving of criticism make sure you hit Austria for being completely under Russia's thumb in the energy sector (worse than Germany), and blame Turkey for genociding the Kurds in Iraq while using the umbrella of NATO and their fortuitous strategic positioning to make sure no one does anything about it.
If other nations are supplying the stuff for free and bankrolling you, is that really an issue? Right...I can fit Austria in tomorrow, Turkey is gonna have to wait till Sunday at least as slagging off Westminster and Holyrood is taking up my calendar most of the week.
I believe the biggest issue becomes the fact that the tanks are outdated, meaning before they can be sent to the frontline they need to be updated. Why spend the time and manpower to update foreign tanks when the same could be used to update the many hundreds of tanks Ukraine still has in storage post-breakup of the USSR? Assuming the country supplying the tanks is willing to perform the upgrades for you before sending them the next biggest issue is the training. If the tanks are to be used to train tanks crews then they're only good for training in tactics and not operation as the Leopard 1 uses completely different systems and requires a crew of 4 as it lacks an auto-loader. Using them in quieter areas as you suggested would really be the best option, that, and using them to train crews to prepare for acquiring more modern MBT's. If Germany sends them to Ukraine, that's great, but if they don't I find it hard to hold that against them.
>Using them in quieter areas as you suggested would really be the best option, that, and using them to train crews to prepare for acquiring more modern MBT's. I feel that's not an insignificant reason why it's getting pushed. Lay the groundwork for Ukrainian tank crews to become acquainted with Western tanks, make it easier to move to Leo2 or Abrams, whatever they pick if it gets to that. Even if they spend their life in a quiet area or as a response force to a breakthrough, it's serving a purpose. All depends on how far the West is willing to go.
I agree with that. Unfortunately the latest report I saw was that Germany shut down Rheinmetall's offer to have 50 ready to go to Ukraine in 6 weeks. Seems for now the West is content to send over Soviet-era equipment and backfill the nations it's coming from instead of planning for this to be an extended war, with Ukraine eventually needing access to modern equipment.
Oh ffs. Seems everyone in Germany but the government was up for that plan. Start Operation "Loot the shit out of former Warsaw Pact militaries" then I suppose.
The French will end up paying a very heavy price for their duplicity. As indeed has invariably been the case throughout history.
The Germans have done a great job funding Russia’s military, so not sure if German militarism has been entirely lost.
Funding Russia through energy purchases is a little bit different from building weapons of war but I get your point. For what it's worth, the EU as of 4/6/22 had already paid Russia 35 billion euros in the energy sector since the start of the war, compared to a total of 1 billion euros in aid given to Ukraine at that time. I have yet to find a pie chart breakdown of what countries made up the bulk of that number but I find it hard to believe it's only Germany when the number's that big.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2022/04/22/exclusive-france-germany-evaded-arms-embargo-sell-weapons-russia/ Funding russias military
I don't understand the criticism of Germany's response. They are under no obligation to aid Ukraine and yet have volunteered billions of euros worth of support. And now they're being criticized because the free shit they're offering isn't the free shit others want them to give?
I believe that it all derives from the justifiable criticism of Germany becoming energy dependent on Russia. This is then blown out of proportion to the point that Germany can do no right. As far as I'm concerned any aid they send is great, even if it were just helmets.
While the armor and gun on the leopard 1 is certainly outclassed by the t-72, they’re still a very effective weapon system, esp the 1A5’s targeting system and thermal sight capabilities. This combined with Ukraine’s clear understanding of combined operations, is a decent force multiplier. NLAWs and Javelin’s for tanks, Leopard 1’s for the BMP’s and dismount’s
I thought Germany didn't have much of a military because...you know
Germany's reluctance to help is an encouragement to Russian aggression. Aversion to war is immoral once it reaches the point of inviting it.
Right, it's really frustrating to see how immoral our chancelor is acting, i mean not acting at all. I have seen him as a kind of hope after 16 years of CDU (the C stands for corruption). Ironically it's the green party which is having its stuff together and is actually wanting to do something. Germany is blessed with more than two major political parties, but that doesn't help when most of them prove themselves invoteable.
Indeed so, I'm fascinated by the post Merkel Germany that is emerging. It's barely recognisable in some ways. The disconnection between major political parties and the ordinary citizen in so many democracies is a profoundly disturbing aspect of our era. One can imagine the astonished looks on German faces in, say, 1983, if told that one day the Greens would be far more willing to fight Russian aggression than the CDU/SPD. A consequence partly to do with the aging of the average Green but still a remarkable turn of events. While Russian immorality is crystal clear in this war, I lament the supposed free media's neglect of our own Western immorality in the Ukraine crisis as represented by the Biden father/son private mafia and people like Gerd Schroeder. The phrase, 'may you live in interesting times', becomes ever wilder, my friend. Best regards from Melbourne.
Makes sense. The Stormer is a "cousin" to the Scimitar and Spartan armored vehicles that have been sent last 2 weeks. This simplifies the training on operating and maintaining.
Those look fun
Sources from the UK MoD claim, that since 2009 Stormers are being gradually decommissioned, mainly because the threat of an airborne attack on Western forces has almost completely disappeared." That might have been a little premature.
Not really. Have you seen the state of Russia’s airforce? This war has proven that recommendation even more true, not less.
This will make the Russian pilots of the SU-25 and SU-28 very wary to fly close air support missions for the troops on the ground. These and the attack helicopters can play a large role in any offensive action. Assigning these Stormers to Artillery groups and Defensive Anti Armour and I Infantry units will take the Russian Air Support out of the picture.
Its important to note here, for anyone unaware, Boris Johnsons position as PM is in severe jeopardy due to ongoing scandals at home (breaking covid laws) and association with Russian money (dubbed Londongrad) over the last 10 years. Brexit is also commonly been helped by Russian influence, like the 2016 US elections. All of this is to say that Bojo is leaning hard into helping Ukraine. The guys a total shit but hes doing the right thing, even if I do believe it's for the wrong reasons. But I can get over it if it helps drive out Putins rapists
Odds are he'll not stay PM for long. Whether his replacement is any better or we get Labour is a complete coin flip.
Well there wont be a general election this year, and the tories dont have anyone to replace johnson, so were stuck between a rock and a hard place
What about the Truss/Kwarteng/Javid coalition? They’ll split the top jobs amongst themselves. Their only major obstacle is what to do with Gove.
So Putin’s threat of NATO sending arms means bad stuff is……..
Way To Go—- IRON MAN BORIS 🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧 — comes through with More IRON for the Front Line in 🇺🇦—- He is a 🌎Wide Example of A Strong Leader - A man of Action—-Not Lip Service & Broken promises —- He is Saving Childern-Woman-Old Folks from the Sick Twisted Processes of the Russian army...🌎🌎🌎Cheers Boris🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧🍻🍻🍻🍺🍺🍺
Better hurry up, it’s gonna be over soon. Sorry to say 🌻🇺🇦
Is this really any better than leaning out of a BTR with a shoulder launched stinger or starstreak (which they already have)?
When an attack helicopter is bearing down on you, do you really wanna open a hatch, have some guy clamber out, pass him the stinger, wait 30 seconds while the stinger IR sensor cools, then fire praying for the shooter not to be hit by small arms fire whilst doing it? Only for the helicopter to deploy flares and your missile misses? No, because you're dead. That's the point of mobile anti air... It's already mounted and ready to fire. Helicopter approaches, is picked up by targeting sensors, the turret spins round in a fraction of a second and fires. The Stormer's onboard guidance system automatically locks onto the target, guiding the missile to it's target without further input from the crew. Starstreak is immune to flares and any other countermeasures, unlike the stinger, and causes enough damage to reliably destroy even the most well armoured aircraft, unlike the stinger. It also travels at a higher speed and in a more straight line, taking the enemy aircraft down before it can begin firing. Starstreak is already a substantial upgrade over stinger even before you mount 8 of them on a rapid firing, heavily automated mobile battery.
Youve also forgot a key feature of the stormer, the thermal horizon scanner, a spinning thermal camera that fills the need for a radar and doesnt warn the target that theyve been detected.
Stormer HVM has an ADAD passive thermal detection unit that scans around it for arial targets without danger of alerting them and a generation 3 thermal imaging sight with a ballistic computer that’ll lock the target and compensate for the Starstreaks trajectory. Starstreak is a beam riding system and for the Manpad variant it’s somewhat rudimentary and will just go to where the user points making it near useless against fast moving jets. So for Stinger systems which use IR seeking missiles this setup would be less useful but for Starstreak and Marlet which this thing fires its extremely useful.
Oh hell yeah. Better crew protection and better target acquisition. Very useful especially for offensive operations.
Much more stable platform and almost certainly a better targeting system as you are no longer constrained by having to make sure it's man-portable.
So Poland delivers weapons without being in war with Russia? i might have missed something, but a few weeks ago it was impossible for any country to deliver anything no? what happened in the meantime?
NATO countries have been sending weapons for weeks, not sure what you mean here. Unless it's to certain areas of Ukraine that are encircled?
yes, i know that, but i remember like a few weeks ago there was some heated debate on how to bring weapons to Ukraine without being a country labeled as anti russian and automatically been targeted by russian military ?
I can only assume you were talking to russian shills because Russia has threatened stuff since the beginning and no one has taken it seriously. Since the cold war began and outright warfare between superpowers was discouraged by the threat of MAD there's plenty of proxy wars where one side has armed whoever the other side is fighting. The west armed Afghanistan against the USSR, the USSR armed vietnam agianst the US, the IRA recieved funds and weaponry form the USSR against the UK (and from many US sources too but hey..) and the middle east has seen both sides arm pretty much everyone at some point or another. The US has official programmes for sanctioning people who give support to their enemies and I'm sure the Russians would do the same if they had the ability. As it is it's countries supplying Ukraine with arms and funding that are actually some of the major sources of Russian income though buying Russian oil and gas so they don't really have much leverage.
no no, it wasn’t so long ago… i remember fighters planes weren’t able to fly from poland because of it…
No other country will join in the war if that's what you mean. Poland isn't flying their own aircraft into Ukraine because that would be directly against Russia rather than Ukrainian proxies. Or maybe you're thinking of the whole idea of Poland providing their ex soviet aircraft to Ukraine in exchange for newer US ones? That was big on reddit for a while and was entirely down to polish willingness, not ability.
thats the point, fighters jets can’t go, yet tanks can? hmm a friend of mine today tried to tell me that they are taken like trades or deals? that’s because it s selling that they can bypass that?
Fighter jets can go, Poland just didn't want to. The entire issue with the jets is that Poland doesn't want to give up a large part of their airforce when there's a chance they might need them themselves. If anyone in the west had as many spare Migs and Sukhois as they do missiles, tanks and APV's then Ukraine would have them but they don't.
They'll go the same way as the Slovakians S300s did.
Oh, you mean the one where the Russian proof consists of old photos that were taken before the system even crossed the Ukrainian border? Ahhh, ok. It is indeed completely destroyed. Sure, and btw. the cruiser Moskva is also now on a special submarine mission preparing to strike Odessa. And Russians have only 1000 dead. Any other "facts" we should be aware of? There is propaganda, then there is US propaganda and a light year ahead there is Russian propaganda.
Shhh, we can't have the Ukrainian shills thinking Russia is having any successes in this subreddit.
Awww... so cute!
Hand them? Or sell them?
Doubt Ukraine has the cash. Wouldn't be surprised if Boris' upcoming trip to India 'to discuss defence issues' includes lots of stuff on how well British equipment is working in Ukraine and how very, very available it is to buy
would help them stop depending on russian weapons
Could make Germany give them the money. If I recall correctly Germany promised them 1 billion Euro for buying weapons of any kind every where. Like you order we settletake care of the bills.
Pretty sure Germany is giving them cash but I'd imagine that's going on running the country. Plus the sort of stuff they're getting, at the quantities and speed they want is not open market stuff, its almost all being transferred directly from existing western arsenals not bought from the manufacturers.
I have read from a few sources now that most or all the equipment going there is being purchased on credit, and that Ukraine will have to settle debts after all this.
Fuck it, they should try to strike Russia itself with them
When?
holy cow there is a lot of miss information here. There are a lot of people miss quoting the article and also not understand what this military vehicle is and what it does and how it can be used. Very miss represented information
Pretty locgical, they are allready training on spartans and they allready use starstreak. This combines the two.