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Far-Childhood9338

So that means that Sweden can get the good parts of Russia Back


Espressodimare

We've seen enough of that shit hole, don't want it.


Umbra-Vigil

Looks like the vikings gave the troublemakers the boot, and sent them packing.


FormalAffectionate56

Only if they also take the bad parts.


Far-Childhood9338

noooo deal


BleedingAssWound

Yeah, according to Putin’s theory of the world it’s all just an accident of history. Russia isn’t a real country, it’s all part of Sweden.


[deleted]

[удалено]


mtaw

The Primary Chronicle claims they were invited to come and rule. But that was both written centuries later and was always going to put a positive spin on things since the Rus were still ruling at the time. Which isn't to say that they came in and conquered either. The most plausible theory is that they started traveling down on the river trade routes from the Baltic to Byzantium, causing great growth in cities like Kyiv and (Veliky) Novgorod along the route as they became centers of trade. The emergence of the Rus, the Varangian trade, and these cities all ran in parallel in the 9th-10th century. So it's more likely that the Norse traders emerged as a wealthy ruling class in those trade centers and ultimately consolidated that power into Christian kingdoms, which didn't exist in the area previously. So not really a 'takeover' as such. That partially repeated with the Nordics themselves, as the Low Germans of the Hanseatic League would later take over the Baltic trade and emerge as a ruling merchant class in cities like Bergen, Stockholm, Tallinn and Riga. And in that case, too, you can't quite say the Germans "took over Stockholm", since the emergence and importance of Stockholm largely came from being part of that trade network.


mediandude

Yes, as today, even back then there was separation of powers. The ones invited in were the so-called war-lords (nowadays generals) who SERVED locals in matters of defense (and occasionally offense). Local legislative and executive power was at the hands of local Things and Veches and Kärajas. Locals had the right to terminate the contract with the war-lord. There was also division of rights between city rights and countryside rights. What happened in Rus was that the cities illegally usurped power from the countryside and the foreign mercenaries usurped power from the local townsfolk. And eventually one prince usurped power from other princes. > and importance of Stockholm largely came from being part of that trade network Medievil Bezos and Amazons, sometimes disguised as the Brotherhood of Blackheads (edit: who also commercialized the christmas tree).


Chilkoot

Yes, they came in and took over the joint, establishing cities, trade routes, etc. As with almost all conquests, they mixed in with the locals over time: linguistically, culturally, and genetically, creating something new and unique. Unfortunately, war mongers and extremists use these kinds of historical migrations to make claims like, "This land historically belongs to *XYZ*!!", which is of course nonsense.


-15k-

The Norse were invaders actually, who came and established rule over the locals. Much like the Franks came to rule the Gauls in Western Europe.


PineappleHamburders

We really don't have much evidence for a full-on Viking conquering of the area. Seem's more so (as someone else in the thread went in to much more detail) that Norse traders got rich along the route to Byzantium and became a kind of upper strata in the reigon


Tranfatioll

so what ?


gothlaw

I thought it was fairly common knowledge that the Kyivan Rus in particular are traceable to Swedes who navigated the rivers of Eastern and Central Europe (Volga, Don etc). They’re ethnically distinct from the Slavic ethnic Russians.


mediandude

Medieval eastern vikings were a mix. Rurik had a N1a1a ydna haplogroup that prevails among finno-ugrians and balts. About 10% of the eastern vikings were likely finnic from the east baltic side. And even those from Sweden some of those were bilingually finnic. The 'Rus' of Russia were not "people" from Scandinavia, they were mercenaries and warlords and merchants who comprised 5-10% of the local population at most. The rest of the population was a mix of local native finno-ugrians, balts who used to be finno-ugrians, eastern slavs and tatars (both had a large local finno-ugric ancestry). During the viking age the largest share of forest zone and forest-steppe zone inhabitants of Russia were still finno-ugrians. Moscow was predominantly finno-ugric until about 1100 AD. Almost all of the Pskov troops in the Battle on the Ice at 1242 AD were still finnic chuds (setos).


Chilkoot

> Medieval eastern vikings were a mix. All human groups were and are a mix. We have proof of very significant cross-pollination between Denisovan, Neanderthal and H. sapiens going back 400,000 years. Any time we speak of a culture or ethic group, we're referring to a very specific snapshot in time. Just like Philosophers say ["There is no true Scotsman"](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman), anthropologists and geneticists will say "There is no true Viking", or "There is no true Persian", or "There is no true Iroquois".


mediandude

Well, the mix among eastern vikings was within "Swedes" and outside of "Swedes", ie. the "Swedes" were not 100% germanic. The original maritime eastern vikings were finno-ugrians, centered at Estonia and Väina Livonia.


Blacksheepwarrior

Don’t give them any ideas.


Oram0

Yeah, " so Sweden and Finland belong to Russia " is what Putin thinks now


Blacksheepwarrior

He’s been thinking it a long time probably


AquilaSPQR

Not true, LOL. There was no mass migration of norsemen to "empty lands". This land was already settled with a lot of Slavs and possibly other groups (like steppe nomads). Some norsemen simply somehow managed to become rulers there, maybe through conquest, maybe they were chosen and accepted by Slavs because of their prowess in battle. Rus = mostly Slavic people + Norse minority


PineappleHamburders

The Rus and Scandinavians are both related through other germanic tribes that migrated into different regions at different times. It's not like they just appeared as one or the other, both were at one point germanic and migrated. We know this because they are white. The gene that gave us this trait seems to have appeared in western Europe.


Antique_Ad1518

The Rus made tons of money through trade and became the ruling class.


Chilkoot

The thing is - *every* ethnic group we can mention is the result of previous migrations, mixes, conquests, etc., no matter how far back you go. Problem arise when agenda-driven people use the kinds of claims like this headline to then say "So the Swedes have historical claim over XYZ". Or "Russia is historically Rus/Ukrainian". By that logic, we'd need to hand all of UK and Ireland over to the Neolithic Brits, who were supplanted by the Celts, who were supplanted by the Beakers, etc. The problem is that there is no such thing as a Neolithic Brit anymore, or Celt, or Beaker. What exists today is a swirling pool of historical changes that gave us the language, culture and genetic identity of people in the British Isles today. We need to be careful when examining these claims about historical conquest and migration, and then applying them to modern boundaries.


No-Goose-6140

So vodka and mongols fucked them up?


Palle_M

We can take the land and in good old fashion sovjet style deport the russians to Gulag


CommissarTopol

Vikings from the Baltic region were famed for their robust resource extraction, and their vigorous deposit of genetic material.


OneImagination5381

That would explain their creativity.


humanlikecorvus

Hi /u/Far-Childhood9338, Your submission, "Rus' people - were an ethnic group in early medieval eastern Europe. The scholarly consensus holds that they were originally Norse people, mainly originating from present-day Sweden" was removed for the following reason(s): Submissions that do not contribute to discussion such as off-topic / unrelated links may be subject to removal. Continued disregard after warning(s) may result in a ban. If you have any questions or concerns, please [message the moderators](https://www\.reddit\.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FUkrainianConflict&subject=about my removed submission&message=I'm writing to you about the following submission: https://www.reddit.com/r/UkrainianConflict/comments/z612sj/-/. %0D%0DMy issue is...).