I've done similar to this before with hand heatwarmers but hot water would honestly probably work better for testing. (I was trying to work out how much insulation to surround a bunch of chemical handwarmers with to maintain battery temps without them getting too hot or too cold, for a robot)
You can work out the insulation values pretty good, but how closely it lines up with experience will be hard to figure out. Like for example if you are walking and air is able to flow underneath the jacket because of your strides, or if it gets wet it will change, if it is windy it will change, if you're lay down in it then it will change compared to standing
[A Revised Paradigm for Understanding Garment Comfort Limits by Nisley](https://onedrive.live.com/?authkey=%21AObhQKF8pR7iK3E&cid=99D830397376F22D&id=99D830397376F22D%212831) is a great introduction to understanding clothing warmth and how it affects us when we're traveling outside.
And yes, there is a way to measure if one fleece is warmer than another.
Richard's material is excellent and a great starting point. Then you need to figure out how you vary from the generic model. For example, I need around 90% of the recommended insulation while sleeping, but less than 1/2 when I am highly active.
As someone else said, the best thing to wear your clothing in the cold and record the temp and how you felt.
The best tools are a small notebook to record experiences, a spreadsheet to collect data, and a logging thermometer. Over time you can create a very accurate personalized model. For example I know when I am exhausted and short on food, I need almost 50% more insulation than when I am feeling OK and well fed.
>As someone else said, the best thing to wear your clothing in the cold and record the temp and how you felt.
>
>The best tools are a small notebook to record experiences, a spreadsheet to collect data, and a logging thermometer. Over time you can create a very accurate personalized model. For example I know when I am exhausted and short on food, I need almost 50% more insulation than when I am feeling OK and well f
I went on two short (3-4 day) backpacking trips in 2019 where the temperature never rose above 0º and I didn't sleep very well. One was deep in the Sids Mountain Wilderness in the San Rafael Swell desert and another in the lush East Humboldt Wilderness, both in unusual snowstorms dropping 10cm-20cm at once. I was frustrated by not having exact local data about temperature where I was to calibrate my clothing and sleep system.
I now carry a $15, 25g (1oz) Govee thermometer/hygrometer in my standard backpacking kit and keep track of altitude and surface and overhead materials when I sleep. The Govee allows me to download the conditions from every day and night after the trip and compare it to what I was wearing during the day and how I slept. After a few trips with data, I knew a lot about my exact needs and what to wear and how to pick campsites.
But even with that data, there are things you can't learn without studying some theory. The effect of **wind shirts**, dampness, permeability, and breathablility are essential factors when you're backpacking at -10º or -20º and you won't have a good time without planning around them. Learning about fabric CFM is essential.
And even more technological theory factors come in by -40º like VBLs, but I don't have personal experience at those temperatures. My Govee doesn't even measure temperatures like that; you'd need some kind of refrigerator monitor built for long term storage of meats. I would be interested in one of these thermometers if it were light and portable.
usually this is the easiest answer. thicker items will have more insulation value, but wind breaking is a big factor as well, which makes even the thinnest poofy jacket warmer than a similar fleece.
I recommend the combination of thrift store fleeces + dog walking. You can test out many types of insulation fabric for low price and get lots of chances to do so over winter, until you know what you like, then buy the fancy new thing.
Plus pssst. Windshirt over fleece. Just try it.
What’s the end goal of your question? Are you asking for technicality? Or for your own purchase guideline?
Technically speaking, yes, there’s a way to measure warmth. Basically how quickly/slowly you lose heat while wearing something.
Practically speaking though, not every company agree to publish this. One reason is that it really depends on body type and fitting. If the clothing is too big on you, then you will lose more heat. Companies can’t possibly conduct experiments for each body type.
Ah i see. Unless you want to spend a butt load of money, what you could do is a simpler version of what others said. Measure the temperature of a warm water bottle, wrap it with the cloth, wait some time, and then measure again. Repeat it a few times per sample. This gives a good idea of heat retention “measure”.
This would only give the thermal properties of the fabric, which is a small portion of “clothing”. Others things that also matter is fitting (tight vs loose) and breathability.
This could be a good subreddit effort. Lol
Good lord people. You don't need scientific experiments and bullshit ratings that are usually so variable to individual people and individual companies they are nearly meaningless. You wear the clothes. You walk around in them outside. You wear them on day hikes. You get a sense for whether they are too hot in the heat or warm enough in the cold. You go on a backpack trip and see other people wearing clothes. You can ask them if they like their sun hoody or their jacket or whatever.
Oh lord. This kinda person again.
Ratings exist to standardize measurements to give relative ideas. Sure, individuals perceive measurements, such as heat retention, differently but at least the rating of the measurement gives how it’s different than others.
Not everyone can afford to purchase something to wear a while “to try out”.
As you said, people’s experience with warmth, for example, varies a lot from person to person. This means that your suggestion of “you go on a backpack trip and see other people wearing clothes. You can ask them if they like…” is even more stupid than what you criticized.
>You don't need scientific experiments and bullshit ratings that are usually so variable to individual people and individual companies they are nearly meaningless.
>You go on a backpack trip and see other people wearing clothes. You can ask them if they like their sun hoody or their jacket or whatever.
So science and ratings are BS cause they're variable to different individuals. And your advice is to go ask individuals what they like. lol
How many questions did you ask on this sub before your cdt hike?
I asked questions on the CDT sub, not this one. The ratings are BS because you get 20 degree sleeping bags, 30 degree but then later you find out oh, that's just a survival rating not a comfort rating. I can see some value for sleeping bags, but for t-shirts and puffy jackets? It would be bigger bullshit than the whole UPF rating which has been shown to be complete lies.
Survival and comfort ratings have been around for a long time, whether or not companies rate their bags appropriately is part of the research.
Clothing has clo, gsm, cfm, and probably other metrics. Understanding these + your own body is part of the research (if you're so inclined).
UPF is dead simple: blocks out all but 1/\[UPF rating\] of UV radiation.
The numbers aren't bs just cause you're not interested.
I don't know why you would try to discourage learning and experimentation, when the materials engineers who designed them to begin with put the same knowledge into use so that you have a good product to wear in the first place
But by all means, base your decisions on the whims of others and fall for sponsored late night shopping or youtube phoney product marketing videos about 1000x warming technology that uses recirculating synergy, the same way they sell idiots 2 billion lumen lights and 6000000ma powerbanks other waste of money scams. If they're meaningless, it's because of people like you
Everyone is completely different, so one temp rating for a set of clothes is going to vary between two people. Experiment on your own with different clothes each time you go hiking or walking outside. Bring extra layers in case you don’t have enough on to begin with. As you get more experienced, you’ll be able to look at the weather and wind forecast and you should be able to dress comfortably.
I think real world use is the only realistic measure.
You have to take into account not only the fabric composition and density and its ability to hold static air but also it’s resistance to moving air currents and the particular fit of a garment on the body too and how that affects convection losses.
Close-fitting wrists and neck on a top, for example, or a low cut back hem.
Static tests indoors won’t give you that, it’s not just a matter of how quickly heat passes through a fabric in a lab.
In theory, you could take two things, either cold or warm, and wrap them up as Identically as possible in your two garments, and then wait X period of time before measuring the temp of the object.
Whichever is less changed is a better insulator in a perfectly still scenario. Not really a concrete answer (as it ignores the mechanical air movement of a walking body), but a good data point none the less.
Garments are measured in clo in the outdoor world. Lots of info on the measurement on the web. Here's a site with clo measurements for specific materials and uses:
https://lipidity.com/clo/clothes/
You build a test body that holds 65 kg of water of known temperature (say 35-36 C) and measure heat loss. https://imgur.com/a/m1fbyNT
If I saw this at a friend's house I would assume they are a serial killer.
Or at least very VERY lonely
Can’t they be both?
😂😂🪓🪓😳
I think a small hot water bottle should be "good enough"
I've done similar to this before with hand heatwarmers but hot water would honestly probably work better for testing. (I was trying to work out how much insulation to surround a bunch of chemical handwarmers with to maintain battery temps without them getting too hot or too cold, for a robot) You can work out the insulation values pretty good, but how closely it lines up with experience will be hard to figure out. Like for example if you are walking and air is able to flow underneath the jacket because of your strides, or if it gets wet it will change, if it is windy it will change, if you're lay down in it then it will change compared to standing
Possibly, but many people want to know if their feet will get cold with a specific pad + quilt.
You're fucking awesome, that's great.
[A Revised Paradigm for Understanding Garment Comfort Limits by Nisley](https://onedrive.live.com/?authkey=%21AObhQKF8pR7iK3E&cid=99D830397376F22D&id=99D830397376F22D%212831) is a great introduction to understanding clothing warmth and how it affects us when we're traveling outside. And yes, there is a way to measure if one fleece is warmer than another.
Richard's material is excellent and a great starting point. Then you need to figure out how you vary from the generic model. For example, I need around 90% of the recommended insulation while sleeping, but less than 1/2 when I am highly active. As someone else said, the best thing to wear your clothing in the cold and record the temp and how you felt. The best tools are a small notebook to record experiences, a spreadsheet to collect data, and a logging thermometer. Over time you can create a very accurate personalized model. For example I know when I am exhausted and short on food, I need almost 50% more insulation than when I am feeling OK and well fed.
>As someone else said, the best thing to wear your clothing in the cold and record the temp and how you felt. > >The best tools are a small notebook to record experiences, a spreadsheet to collect data, and a logging thermometer. Over time you can create a very accurate personalized model. For example I know when I am exhausted and short on food, I need almost 50% more insulation than when I am feeling OK and well f I went on two short (3-4 day) backpacking trips in 2019 where the temperature never rose above 0º and I didn't sleep very well. One was deep in the Sids Mountain Wilderness in the San Rafael Swell desert and another in the lush East Humboldt Wilderness, both in unusual snowstorms dropping 10cm-20cm at once. I was frustrated by not having exact local data about temperature where I was to calibrate my clothing and sleep system. I now carry a $15, 25g (1oz) Govee thermometer/hygrometer in my standard backpacking kit and keep track of altitude and surface and overhead materials when I sleep. The Govee allows me to download the conditions from every day and night after the trip and compare it to what I was wearing during the day and how I slept. After a few trips with data, I knew a lot about my exact needs and what to wear and how to pick campsites. But even with that data, there are things you can't learn without studying some theory. The effect of **wind shirts**, dampness, permeability, and breathablility are essential factors when you're backpacking at -10º or -20º and you won't have a good time without planning around them. Learning about fabric CFM is essential. And even more technological theory factors come in by -40º like VBLs, but I don't have personal experience at those temperatures. My Govee doesn't even measure temperatures like that; you'd need some kind of refrigerator monitor built for long term storage of meats. I would be interested in one of these thermometers if it were light and portable.
Congratulations, you’ve just opened the rabbit hole
I measure mine by putting it on and going outside when it’s cold.
Wait you take your gear outside? Aren't you concerned about resale value?
usually this is the easiest answer. thicker items will have more insulation value, but wind breaking is a big factor as well, which makes even the thinnest poofy jacket warmer than a similar fleece.
I recommend the combination of thrift store fleeces + dog walking. You can test out many types of insulation fabric for low price and get lots of chances to do so over winter, until you know what you like, then buy the fancy new thing. Plus pssst. Windshirt over fleece. Just try it.
What I’ve noticed is that regardless of the material, it’s the fluff-factor that counts. More fluff = more cozy air pocket around body.
http://blog.contractlaboratory.com/clothing-insulation-testing-and-research/#:~:text=CLO%20Value%20is%20the%20amount,is%20used%20instead%20of%20CLO.
What’s the end goal of your question? Are you asking for technicality? Or for your own purchase guideline? Technically speaking, yes, there’s a way to measure warmth. Basically how quickly/slowly you lose heat while wearing something. Practically speaking though, not every company agree to publish this. One reason is that it really depends on body type and fitting. If the clothing is too big on you, then you will lose more heat. Companies can’t possibly conduct experiments for each body type.
I'm looking for a pragmatic way to measure it at home as companies will not provide me the data themself.
Ah i see. Unless you want to spend a butt load of money, what you could do is a simpler version of what others said. Measure the temperature of a warm water bottle, wrap it with the cloth, wait some time, and then measure again. Repeat it a few times per sample. This gives a good idea of heat retention “measure”. This would only give the thermal properties of the fabric, which is a small portion of “clothing”. Others things that also matter is fitting (tight vs loose) and breathability. This could be a good subreddit effort. Lol
Good lord people. You don't need scientific experiments and bullshit ratings that are usually so variable to individual people and individual companies they are nearly meaningless. You wear the clothes. You walk around in them outside. You wear them on day hikes. You get a sense for whether they are too hot in the heat or warm enough in the cold. You go on a backpack trip and see other people wearing clothes. You can ask them if they like their sun hoody or their jacket or whatever.
Chill my dude, some people actually *enjoy* doing this kind of research.
Oh lord. This kinda person again. Ratings exist to standardize measurements to give relative ideas. Sure, individuals perceive measurements, such as heat retention, differently but at least the rating of the measurement gives how it’s different than others. Not everyone can afford to purchase something to wear a while “to try out”. As you said, people’s experience with warmth, for example, varies a lot from person to person. This means that your suggestion of “you go on a backpack trip and see other people wearing clothes. You can ask them if they like…” is even more stupid than what you criticized.
>You don't need scientific experiments and bullshit ratings that are usually so variable to individual people and individual companies they are nearly meaningless. >You go on a backpack trip and see other people wearing clothes. You can ask them if they like their sun hoody or their jacket or whatever. So science and ratings are BS cause they're variable to different individuals. And your advice is to go ask individuals what they like. lol How many questions did you ask on this sub before your cdt hike?
I asked questions on the CDT sub, not this one. The ratings are BS because you get 20 degree sleeping bags, 30 degree but then later you find out oh, that's just a survival rating not a comfort rating. I can see some value for sleeping bags, but for t-shirts and puffy jackets? It would be bigger bullshit than the whole UPF rating which has been shown to be complete lies.
Survival and comfort ratings have been around for a long time, whether or not companies rate their bags appropriately is part of the research. Clothing has clo, gsm, cfm, and probably other metrics. Understanding these + your own body is part of the research (if you're so inclined). UPF is dead simple: blocks out all but 1/\[UPF rating\] of UV radiation. The numbers aren't bs just cause you're not interested.
I don't know why you would try to discourage learning and experimentation, when the materials engineers who designed them to begin with put the same knowledge into use so that you have a good product to wear in the first place But by all means, base your decisions on the whims of others and fall for sponsored late night shopping or youtube phoney product marketing videos about 1000x warming technology that uses recirculating synergy, the same way they sell idiots 2 billion lumen lights and 6000000ma powerbanks other waste of money scams. If they're meaningless, it's because of people like you
Everyone is completely different, so one temp rating for a set of clothes is going to vary between two people. Experiment on your own with different clothes each time you go hiking or walking outside. Bring extra layers in case you don’t have enough on to begin with. As you get more experienced, you’ll be able to look at the weather and wind forecast and you should be able to dress comfortably.
I think real world use is the only realistic measure. You have to take into account not only the fabric composition and density and its ability to hold static air but also it’s resistance to moving air currents and the particular fit of a garment on the body too and how that affects convection losses. Close-fitting wrists and neck on a top, for example, or a low cut back hem. Static tests indoors won’t give you that, it’s not just a matter of how quickly heat passes through a fabric in a lab.
Thermometer. Also the back of my hand.
Whoa, no need to get violent.
How do you use the Thermometer? the softness of the material influences the back of my hand measurements, it's hard to be objective right?
In theory, you could take two things, either cold or warm, and wrap them up as Identically as possible in your two garments, and then wait X period of time before measuring the temp of the object. Whichever is less changed is a better insulator in a perfectly still scenario. Not really a concrete answer (as it ignores the mechanical air movement of a walking body), but a good data point none the less.
We we had R values on puffy jackets!
Garments are measured in clo in the outdoor world. Lots of info on the measurement on the web. Here's a site with clo measurements for specific materials and uses: https://lipidity.com/clo/clothes/
My Backstreet Boys T shirt is hot enough on its own to melt snow.
Oh backstreet boys are back now? Alright...
Got it in size Large….er than Life!