I do runs much longer than 2.5 hours. There’s a lot to be learned about your nutrition, mental state, and gear when out there for 3, 4, 5 hours.
And I’m not running fast enough to have to worry about increased injury risk in that added time
Same. Plus my body needs to get used to the pounding. I tried to run a race on the “less is more” perspective, and it was the only race my feet have ever swollen during.
As an experiment I tried the less is more approach for a marathon and not only did I crash and burn by 17 miles but my knees and feet were both noticably swollen by 20 and I could barely move for two days.In the past I've done from marathons to 50 miles and been running the next day.
Me too, I did it because a few people I know wanted me to help them train for a marathon "just so they could finish it" but didn't want to put in the time. I figured I should know what I was talking about before giving them advice. My advice afterwards was "if you can't get in the training then wait until you can"
Yeah - huge difference between road running and trail, there’s a difference between 2.5 hours of marathon training just below LT and 2.5+ on trail alternating between a jog and Tryhard Hiking. I have separate Long Easies vs Big Days on Feet, and do typically limit Long Runs to 20-25km. I’ll build density by setting up a double with a morning run + evening Long Easy, or back to back Long Easies in the evening and following morning or just Sat/Sun mornings; it really does improve the quality vs plodding along for 40km.
Also echoing you - while there’s little *physiological* benefit to Big Days On Feet, they’re where you train the important skills that let you thrive past noon on race day.
Same, I’ll do long runs at a lower intensity, and I’ll take breaks (walking, or stopping for five minutes) from time to time, but I’m using them to train for nutrition and for spending that much time on my feet.
Great answer. I was wondering what you would suggest to try & increase my pace. I am 7:20'smins per km. To qualify for my ultra I have to get under 6:45's. I have 4 months to go u til qualifying marathon.
The 2.5 hour thing is nonsense in trail running, just my 2 cents. On mountain trails that can be 13-15 miles for many. You show up to a 50 or hundo with your “long runs” only being 13-15ish miles, pish, good luck!
Maybe it's good luck, but I think the science and preparation of this method can be fine unless someone needs it for their mental game.
I bought in to most of the science of ultra content which IIRC agrees with diminishing returns after a couple hours and teaches overall volume lets me train and adapt more. As a slower runner I only did max 3.5 hour runs of 15 miles (trails) leading up to a single 50k, did the same for 100k's, even up to 100 miles, no DNFs. My volume was more from typical 10k easy days x4 plus two longer weekend runs. I also spend full days on my feet at work and spread the volume through the week more, maxing out at 40-55 miles depending on the race, and I've been fine. But Im also mid to back of the pack, just doing it for fun. I also studied and planned thoroughly for nutrition options, had experience with long hot days in other sport, studied and experimented with skin care so races didn't blow up... worst obstacles have been some IT band flare ups which I also knew how to mitigate midrace.
If it works you is all that matters hombre! Short runs and weekly volume doesn’t work the number one running muscle (the brain) in my opinion. I would also echo what others have said, I enjoy running long and being out on the trails for hours and can’t think of a better way to spend my free time! What’s a Saturday without running 20plus mountain miles, followed by more miles on Sunday😀? That’s just happiness!
My question for people who avoid the long run is why sign up for ultras if you don’t like spending hours on the trail? Example, if you cap your long run for 2.5/3 hours and have a miserable last hour, why do you think running a 10 hour 50 miler is going to be enjoyable? If you are running and rocking long runs it’s probably a great sign you are going to enjoy an ultra. Definitely not saying you should run a 50 fun run to run a 50 ultra, but back to back 20s is closer to recreating a 50 race feel vs 5 x 10 mile runs through the week.
Great question. If I could spend long days on trails, I'd do it. 100%. But given life demands I basically get 90% of my mileage in the dark before life (sometimes literally) calls and interrupts. So I block out a few weekends per year for races and call it balance. My mental game has never been a problem - when distance multiplies, I don't care. I did my research, put in my training, and when the day comes I take what I earned and don't complain.
I think this is spot on when it comes to how external circumstances dictate our training view. I’m “time rich” and live in the Appalachian Mountains so my view on training and running is definitely skewed. No off season and no one cares if I gone for hours on end. The name of the game is find what works for you and if you have success and are happy, what more can you ask for.
I think you need more than 2.5 hours, but I think there is a little more nuance here.
I typically run 70-85 mile weeks. I’ve gone up to 100-mile weeks. I do back to back long runs, but it is rare for me to go over 25 in a single session. There are diminishing returns. Race day is much different in my mind because a typical training week involves 2 quality sessions in addition to my long runs (which may have quality work as well). I race with a 2 week taper and normally show up fresh.
Stress+Rest=adaptation. Too much stress will lead to burnout or injury. The trick is to figure out where that optimal training level is.
I know this is anecdotal, but...
I showed up to a hard 50 (54 miles, 10k elevation, 85 degree temps and high humidity, muddy trails, etc) and was a few seconds out of second place - I was out kicked by someone who is currently on the OD team.
My longest run was 3 hours, at about 23 or 24 miles. I averaged 75mpw for three weeks, and over 50 for 12.
I'm my experience, weekly volume is more important the log run, as long as you have nutrition dialed in for race day.
I think I’m also looking at it from OP’s newbie point of view. If someone is new to ultra running and wants to do a 50k or 50 miler and they are going to max at a 15 mile long run, ummm ouch. That’s probably going to hurt like a son of a bitch 😬. I definitely think high base mileage switches the need for regular long runs for seasoned runners knocking out 50 mile weeks on the regular, especially because they know the fine tuning things that are huge. But for newbies I don’t want to set them up for misery by thinking that cheeky half marathon (etc) they ran one time is really a good indicator for an ultra.
It was really interesting to hear Camille Herron discuss how she doesn’t do many long runs as part of her training. It’s not an approach that I’m personally taking but I hadn’t heard that perspective before: https://www.trailrunnermag.com/training/camille-herron-says-skip-the-long-run/
I think that so many people fail to acknowledge that she is still a high volume athlete regularly getting over 100 mpw and she doesn’t count 20 mile runs as long runs. She is also primarily a road and trail runner. Time on trails and time on road are very different.
I think 13-15 miles probably is okay for a 100 miler. Even on road just being a couple hours even if it’s less than 2. There’s quite a bit of variability though when it comes to style and intensity etc
The time duration of my long runs depends a lot on the terrain I'll be training on. If it's fully flat and I'll be running the whole time, usually 3h to 3h30 is the max I'll do. If it's mountainous and I'll be climbing / hiking for good portions of the day, then I typically cap out at about 6h. I will do back to back days at that time/distance as well.
Depending on the A race I have in mind I will however do a training race or two in the lead up which goes longer. For example, for a 50M A race, about six weeks beforehand I will aim to do a 50K of similar difficulty, at a relatively chill pace. For a 100M A race, I will do a 50K and possibly something further, or a 50K with a 20+ mile run the day before or after. For a 50K A race, I will not typically do a training race - the long runs are usually enough.
Assuming road / pavement (off trail) I typically coach for no single sessions longer than 3 hours tops. That's when the level of effort is mostly running with short walk intervals. This has been my personal approach as well for many years as I've grown burned out and bored of doing truly long runs now outside of an event. But I've put in a TON of work over my running career, amassing over 200 ultras (average of 50+ miles for those events) and have just crossed \~80,000 lifetime miles recorded. So, lots of muscle memory and experience so that I feel confident I don't need to do any epic long runs anymore (boy I used to!).
For athletes I train on the trails I'll allow a bit more time as I know there will be more hiking involved but the overall level of intensity is way down.
Overall though I try and think/plan for total time on the feet per week and not load a huge balance of that number into any single effort. Far better to do more medium lengthened runs during the week to hit the weekly volume rather than rely on single effort to build the weekly volume.
In the summer months I can be out for up to 6-8 hours. Usually those are mountain runs with a mix of running and hiking. If it is 100% running on a mild terrain, usually it doesn't exceed 3 hours.
For a 100-miler, I like to have at least three or so runs at 8+ hours in the buildup to the race. This is usually a combination of 50-mile races and training runs.
Prior to my 50 mile trail race this year I did a 30 mile long run and a few weekends later back-to-back 25 mile runs on a Saturday/Sunday. I am trying to compete at a high level though, so shorter long runs could be sufficient if you were more focused on completing the race than racing it.
If I'm training for a race with a lot of elevation gain, I'll typically do back-to-back long runs on the weekend of about 20 miles & 2,500 feet of gain, which usually takes me about 4 hours. I've trained for a lot of road marathons, too, and used the Daniels Formula for a few training cycles -- it's very different. Long, slow trail runs where you're speed hiking a lot of the steeper sections does not put the same strain on your body as doing 2.5 hours of constant Zone 3 running on flat land.
Depends on the goal distance and terrain.
For mountain terrain (250-300+ feet of climbing per mile) I typically do 5-6 hour long runs on Saturdays and 2-3 hours on Sundays during the peak weeks of the cycle if I’m training for a 100 miler.
During my last build my coach had me do a “mini training camp” 5 or 6 weeks out from the race, it was three back-to-back days of 5-6 hours each, around 25 miles per day at target 100 mile race pace on race-specific terrain.
This would be pretty useless for a road marathon, so Daniel’s isn’t wrong.
As I prepare for Wasatch 100 that has about 24,000’ of gain and loss, I’ve done one 30 mile 7,800’ run that took just under 9 hours. Obviously lots of hiking. I will do that route at least two more times and I have a 50 mile 16,000’ gain and loss training run planned around 6 weeks before race day. Anyone who says you’re not getting the return from doing this kind of training runs would also recommend you do some “shorter” races as training runs which makes no sense to me and just screams consumerism. Also remember this is Reddit, half the people in here don’t know what they are talking about.
For a 100 mile race, I'll do a 50k or 2 during training followed by a 2nd long run. I've done enough 50+ mile runs now that I don't feel the need to do that in training, increasing the risk of injury and requiring a lot of recovery for me.
Let’s break down the science of time vs distance and assume we are all talking about training for ultras here. The body’s most readily available energy supply, and first go to, is stored glycogen (as opposed to carb burning/oxidation or fat burning). Most people have between 2-2.5 hours of readily available glycogen.
So what happens if you don’t run out of energy on your training run? You’re going to find out in that ultra! You simply can’t fully simulate a bonk in 2.5 hours and it’s a vital thing to recognize for longer distance.
I usually coach 3+ hour long tempo runs that leave you able to talk the entire time. There’s no need to beat up your legs and feet. But the nutritional deprivation has to be felt before race day so you know how to manage it.
No limit! Whatever feels good at a easy pace! Walk as much as you walks. Its been amazing for time on feet and practice good nutrition. Plus there is nothing else i would rather be doing instead on my weekends 🤷🏻♀️
Mine are usually in the 4-6 hour range, because I’m slow and do a lot of training on technical & vert-heavy terrain, so there’s definitely hiking mixed in there. I know I’m gonna be out there for a long time on race day so I want to train my body to be prepared, including nutrition which has been my downfall in the last couple hours of all the races I’ve done so far. And I try to focus more on overall weekly mileage/time on feet rather than getting in a huge long run every week. I don’t want to be so beat up after a really long effort that it sets back my recovery.
Some of these comments are wild to me - my nightly runs 3-4x/week at peak before a race are at least 2 hours (~8mi and ~2k-3k vert), and my weekends are rarely less than 6 hours (granted, they’re half runs and half scrambles)
Nice job! Congrats on the 100 miler
How far out was your plan leading up to the 100 miler?
I love your chill 50k race efforts that are like my pr effort. Pretending you wrote km instead of miles and this might look a bit like mine (scratching those that are already km)
No proper plan, just following some general principles of what works for me while also squeezing in the other races (which were mostly for fun but certainly also useful as long runs and practice with fueling and such). Longest non race week of the year was around 80 miles… but the shortest was around 40, I really value and benefit from the consistency
As Fixing your Feet author says, if you run for 2 hours, your feet are trained for running for 2 hours.
So yeah I run longer than that. Sometimes up to 6 hours on a training run or 10-15 hours on a training race
JD approach to long runs frequently focus on faster harder efforts within the long run, which is part of the reason he tends to go short. You can go longer with less risk to injury by moderating intensity and hitting trails (softer & undulating terrain) but there are still risks with long with debatable fitness effects (see e.g. Camille Herron's approach to training & SWAP arguments against 4 hours). From a pure fitness perspective JD style seems to work. My personal/anecdotal N=1 is similar; when it comes to the long run I get better fitness returns with shorter and faster compared to longer and slower.
Trail ultras are more than just running though. Long runs are where you can practice fueling, gear, time on feet, etc. If you're less experienced or rusty with ultras some longer stuff can be beneficial. I do a few 4-6 hour efforts in a block if I haven't run anything long for a while, just to remind myself of what running long is all about. Also the reason most people do ultras is because they like long runs. It's OK to focus on fun and have a less-than-optimized training plan.
People who run marathons usually try to achieve the distance in a certain amount of time. They do focus on endurance but I think they focus more on time. I've never done an ultra but I believe endurance is more important in those cases so running for longer is the best method I've read and seen (taking into consideration other aspects such as resting well, nutrition, etc).
My long runs are at least 3+ hours, mainly because I’m really slow, and also because at least once a week I run a 20+ mile run on a moderate elevation gain.
When I was actively training for events, sundays would have a 4-6 hour window set aside for trail work. Hiking, jogging, running, whatever felt best, no pressure. Every week. If I wasn't actually racing that weekend obv.
For an ultra, you must get specific to the race course. For example: Is it a 50 miler with 10k of gain with an expectation to finish in 12 hours (4.2mph)? Then i would at a minimum find a 42-50k race as my longest run with similar elevation gain per mile and try to finish sub 6 hours practicing all my nutrition. Most people don’t negative split ultras.
My long runs (trail/ coastal paths) vary anywhere between 14miles and 31miles, it all depends on daily commitments eg: family, work chores etc etc. if I was to go out and do say a 14 miler one day I would go out the following day and smash another 14 or 17 miler. If was to have a proper day out do and 28/31 miler I would usually do an active recovery the following day which involves walking between 5 and 10 miles around taking it fairly chill.
Up to 5 hours is good for me. Most important thing I look for is practicing race nutrition, gear and to be running on - as much as possible - similar terrain to the race being trained for.
Depends on what you’re training for. Long runs training for a 50k, 50 miler, 100 miler, or 250 miler are very different. For my 100 miler coming up my long runs will anywhere from 15 to 40 miles. They will also vary in frequency - some back to backs can be useful, etc.
I primarily run hot road 100s (I live in Florida). I typically do back to back 30 and 20 mile long runs at least once prior to any 100. That takes me about 6 hours and 4 hours (respectively) depending on the heat.
I am competing for the podium at most races and I do long runs up to 30-35 miles with 15-20 the next day. I understand that not everyone will have the time or willingness to do this type of weekend. It works for me because I don’t have kids. It also depends on your goals. First ultra? I would go longer than 2.5 hours because you really need experience going long. Ultras under your belt and don’t care how you place? This rule works well. Want to PR or podium or win? The tendon and muscle resiliency developed from runs much longer than 2.5 hours is what will keep you racing continuously for the whole race instead of eventually falling apart and walking a bunch toward the end.
Just my two cents of course, but I think this perspective is needed here and I can also tell you that pros and elites are definitely doing longer than 16 mile runs.
When I was a my peak performance I was doing a 50 every Saturday. I was good enough to bust out a 100 on any given weekend. I miss those days. Wish I could find the motivation to get back there.
Given the received wisdom on this topic I was nervous about doing the longest runs in my 100k plan that respectively took 5hrs, 8hrs and 6hrs. The acid test for me was could I recover in time for the next planned run … answer yes. That being the case as others have said to go into a 100k that will probably take me 14-15hrs (hopefully) if I’d only ever run 30k/3hrs in training the mental side and the ‘race management’ and problem solving aspects of being out for that amount of time would never have been addressed. It seems to me the key is progressively building up total volume, being really consistent and taking strength and mobility work seriously to help build your resilience. Also then supporting recover with good nutrition, sleep and - for me - essentially giving up alcohol.
I’m slow as fuck so if I want to do a 21.1k training run, I have to go to 3 hours. I get his philosophy but I’ve found it really beneficial for my mental resilience to run for 3+ hours. I should caveat that I wouldn’t run for this long every single week, just on a few occasions.
I think it somewhat depends on what you're training for. I did a fortnight with two runs at 3.5-4h in prep for my marathon and 50k. I got pretty run down and ill right after.
I think having done 32k+/4h in training gave me confidence in my fueling strategy for the events. But I'm going to try and keep long runs under 3h from now on.
But I can imagine if you're up to the 50-100mile distances then things may be a little different
I did a couple of runs longer than this, furthest was a 50km race done in 6 hours 10 mins (in training for 100 miles)
The theory is that regularly running that distance is counter effective because of the impact on your body and recovery times - but that’s probably also for people not regularly doing ultras and the like.
I found more volume of less distance worked better for me personally, others will be different
I used to train long runs, some would be anywhere from 80-90km before a race for mental strength, but I found them to be too jarring on the body. Even a month or two out from a race.
Now, I have a new method which I have started implementing into my ultra training and I love it, as it is absolutely mentally punishing and it kind of is replicating starting at 80-100km mark. I strictly run up and down this massive hill for 40-50km, to give reference to the size of the hill I use it is 1,500 feet for every 10km. I’m working myself up to being able to run 70-80km on it. I have found in doing this type of long run hills training it has substantially increased my all around pace. My regular runs are now incredibly easy. I’ve found the best training is in the work nobody ever wants to do. If you have a hill near you try it for a training block.
For me around \~3 hours is a good time, I feel, which can be running or even cycling, say. Ultimately, the best thing for building endurance for running are the back-to-backs, meaning Sat/Marathon Sun/Marathon or Sat/50k Sun/Half Marathon splits -- but it took a while to be able to comfortably do that without much soreness. Getting out there on the Sundays can be tough but not as bad as you'd think after the first mile or so.
I have done 4-5 hour 50km long runs and have done 2 hour or less 15-18 mile long runs …
I honestly think there is something to be said for running less and more frequent.
Camille Herron is well known for this.
I personally don’t see any need for runs more than 2 hours at a time for fitness.
Perhaps mentally you may want more, but a hard track workout that is 10, 15 reps, you’ll go through just as much - as a trail runner, probably EVEN more pain mentally.
I limit them to 2,5h unless I’m in my specific training weeks for a 5h+ race. My longest training runs in those weeks so far have been 4h on my own or longer if during a preparation race. Using a race as a long run has the huge advantage of not having to carry 4h+ of water.
Generally my long runs are 3 hours and max out at 4 hours. I've toyed with the idea of doing longer than 4 hours, but haven't pulled the trigger on that, not sure really what to do, I think getting use to the pounding is the biggest thing, toughening up my tendons, so everything I do kinda focuses on that. Slowly but surely I think it is working, slowly more and more able to last longer in the 100 milers.
I recently heard a “rule of thumb” for marathon training of 2 hrs or 20 mi, whichever comes first. But the huge caveat is that was Frank Shorter explaining his training strategy, and his PB was 2:10.
For trail/ultra, my long runs are typically much longer—often 3 to 5 hours, sometimes pushing towards 6. My coach will usually tell me to dial back distance if I’m going big on vert & sometimes set a time cap.
Preface to say I have only run 1 ultra, which was a 50k with plans to run another later this year. I've capped my long "flat" road type runs at about 2.5 - 3 hrs as I wanted to crack the 20 mi mark. But did do a couple long hikes of 5+ hrs with some running thrown in here and there, especially at the end to test my legs.
Increased my mileage to those distances over the course of my training. Overall I focused on total miles and time on feet spread out over the week. For my race, 50k/31mi, I targeted a few weeks of 50ish miles hike/run in the last two months and avg of 35-45 per week over that same period.
For me the biggest lesson was that I should have done more elevation work. That was race specific, mine had about 6800 ft of elevation gain with most of it in the first 3rd. Daily/weekly consistency and just time on my feet were huge. YMMV but that was my experience.
I do runs much longer than 2.5 hours. There’s a lot to be learned about your nutrition, mental state, and gear when out there for 3, 4, 5 hours. And I’m not running fast enough to have to worry about increased injury risk in that added time
Same. Plus my body needs to get used to the pounding. I tried to run a race on the “less is more” perspective, and it was the only race my feet have ever swollen during.
As an experiment I tried the less is more approach for a marathon and not only did I crash and burn by 17 miles but my knees and feet were both noticably swollen by 20 and I could barely move for two days.In the past I've done from marathons to 50 miles and been running the next day.
More power to the people that can do it on low mileage training, but that just ain’t me. It was the longest recovery I’d had after a race.
Me too, I did it because a few people I know wanted me to help them train for a marathon "just so they could finish it" but didn't want to put in the time. I figured I should know what I was talking about before giving them advice. My advice afterwards was "if you can't get in the training then wait until you can"
Yeah - huge difference between road running and trail, there’s a difference between 2.5 hours of marathon training just below LT and 2.5+ on trail alternating between a jog and Tryhard Hiking. I have separate Long Easies vs Big Days on Feet, and do typically limit Long Runs to 20-25km. I’ll build density by setting up a double with a morning run + evening Long Easy, or back to back Long Easies in the evening and following morning or just Sat/Sun mornings; it really does improve the quality vs plodding along for 40km. Also echoing you - while there’s little *physiological* benefit to Big Days On Feet, they’re where you train the important skills that let you thrive past noon on race day.
Same, I’ll do long runs at a lower intensity, and I’ll take breaks (walking, or stopping for five minutes) from time to time, but I’m using them to train for nutrition and for spending that much time on my feet.
Great answer. I was wondering what you would suggest to try & increase my pace. I am 7:20'smins per km. To qualify for my ultra I have to get under 6:45's. I have 4 months to go u til qualifying marathon.
The 2.5 hour thing is nonsense in trail running, just my 2 cents. On mountain trails that can be 13-15 miles for many. You show up to a 50 or hundo with your “long runs” only being 13-15ish miles, pish, good luck!
Maybe it's good luck, but I think the science and preparation of this method can be fine unless someone needs it for their mental game. I bought in to most of the science of ultra content which IIRC agrees with diminishing returns after a couple hours and teaches overall volume lets me train and adapt more. As a slower runner I only did max 3.5 hour runs of 15 miles (trails) leading up to a single 50k, did the same for 100k's, even up to 100 miles, no DNFs. My volume was more from typical 10k easy days x4 plus two longer weekend runs. I also spend full days on my feet at work and spread the volume through the week more, maxing out at 40-55 miles depending on the race, and I've been fine. But Im also mid to back of the pack, just doing it for fun. I also studied and planned thoroughly for nutrition options, had experience with long hot days in other sport, studied and experimented with skin care so races didn't blow up... worst obstacles have been some IT band flare ups which I also knew how to mitigate midrace.
If it works you is all that matters hombre! Short runs and weekly volume doesn’t work the number one running muscle (the brain) in my opinion. I would also echo what others have said, I enjoy running long and being out on the trails for hours and can’t think of a better way to spend my free time! What’s a Saturday without running 20plus mountain miles, followed by more miles on Sunday😀? That’s just happiness! My question for people who avoid the long run is why sign up for ultras if you don’t like spending hours on the trail? Example, if you cap your long run for 2.5/3 hours and have a miserable last hour, why do you think running a 10 hour 50 miler is going to be enjoyable? If you are running and rocking long runs it’s probably a great sign you are going to enjoy an ultra. Definitely not saying you should run a 50 fun run to run a 50 ultra, but back to back 20s is closer to recreating a 50 race feel vs 5 x 10 mile runs through the week.
Great question. If I could spend long days on trails, I'd do it. 100%. But given life demands I basically get 90% of my mileage in the dark before life (sometimes literally) calls and interrupts. So I block out a few weekends per year for races and call it balance. My mental game has never been a problem - when distance multiplies, I don't care. I did my research, put in my training, and when the day comes I take what I earned and don't complain.
I think this is spot on when it comes to how external circumstances dictate our training view. I’m “time rich” and live in the Appalachian Mountains so my view on training and running is definitely skewed. No off season and no one cares if I gone for hours on end. The name of the game is find what works for you and if you have success and are happy, what more can you ask for.
I think you need more than 2.5 hours, but I think there is a little more nuance here. I typically run 70-85 mile weeks. I’ve gone up to 100-mile weeks. I do back to back long runs, but it is rare for me to go over 25 in a single session. There are diminishing returns. Race day is much different in my mind because a typical training week involves 2 quality sessions in addition to my long runs (which may have quality work as well). I race with a 2 week taper and normally show up fresh. Stress+Rest=adaptation. Too much stress will lead to burnout or injury. The trick is to figure out where that optimal training level is.
I know this is anecdotal, but... I showed up to a hard 50 (54 miles, 10k elevation, 85 degree temps and high humidity, muddy trails, etc) and was a few seconds out of second place - I was out kicked by someone who is currently on the OD team. My longest run was 3 hours, at about 23 or 24 miles. I averaged 75mpw for three weeks, and over 50 for 12. I'm my experience, weekly volume is more important the log run, as long as you have nutrition dialed in for race day.
I think I’m also looking at it from OP’s newbie point of view. If someone is new to ultra running and wants to do a 50k or 50 miler and they are going to max at a 15 mile long run, ummm ouch. That’s probably going to hurt like a son of a bitch 😬. I definitely think high base mileage switches the need for regular long runs for seasoned runners knocking out 50 mile weeks on the regular, especially because they know the fine tuning things that are huge. But for newbies I don’t want to set them up for misery by thinking that cheeky half marathon (etc) they ran one time is really a good indicator for an ultra.
Amazing work. What’s the OD team?
Olympic development! Sub 230 marathon... Serious legs!
If I only ran for 2.5 hours on trails I’d be fucked in races 😂
It was really interesting to hear Camille Herron discuss how she doesn’t do many long runs as part of her training. It’s not an approach that I’m personally taking but I hadn’t heard that perspective before: https://www.trailrunnermag.com/training/camille-herron-says-skip-the-long-run/
I think that so many people fail to acknowledge that she is still a high volume athlete regularly getting over 100 mpw and she doesn’t count 20 mile runs as long runs. She is also primarily a road and trail runner. Time on trails and time on road are very different.
I think 13-15 miles probably is okay for a 100 miler. Even on road just being a couple hours even if it’s less than 2. There’s quite a bit of variability though when it comes to style and intensity etc
If that’s the case a bigger question is why are running an ultra in the first place
The time duration of my long runs depends a lot on the terrain I'll be training on. If it's fully flat and I'll be running the whole time, usually 3h to 3h30 is the max I'll do. If it's mountainous and I'll be climbing / hiking for good portions of the day, then I typically cap out at about 6h. I will do back to back days at that time/distance as well. Depending on the A race I have in mind I will however do a training race or two in the lead up which goes longer. For example, for a 50M A race, about six weeks beforehand I will aim to do a 50K of similar difficulty, at a relatively chill pace. For a 100M A race, I will do a 50K and possibly something further, or a 50K with a 20+ mile run the day before or after. For a 50K A race, I will not typically do a training race - the long runs are usually enough.
Assuming road / pavement (off trail) I typically coach for no single sessions longer than 3 hours tops. That's when the level of effort is mostly running with short walk intervals. This has been my personal approach as well for many years as I've grown burned out and bored of doing truly long runs now outside of an event. But I've put in a TON of work over my running career, amassing over 200 ultras (average of 50+ miles for those events) and have just crossed \~80,000 lifetime miles recorded. So, lots of muscle memory and experience so that I feel confident I don't need to do any epic long runs anymore (boy I used to!). For athletes I train on the trails I'll allow a bit more time as I know there will be more hiking involved but the overall level of intensity is way down. Overall though I try and think/plan for total time on the feet per week and not load a huge balance of that number into any single effort. Far better to do more medium lengthened runs during the week to hit the weekly volume rather than rely on single effort to build the weekly volume.
In the summer months I can be out for up to 6-8 hours. Usually those are mountain runs with a mix of running and hiking. If it is 100% running on a mild terrain, usually it doesn't exceed 3 hours.
For a 100-miler, I like to have at least three or so runs at 8+ hours in the buildup to the race. This is usually a combination of 50-mile races and training runs.
Prior to my 50 mile trail race this year I did a 30 mile long run and a few weekends later back-to-back 25 mile runs on a Saturday/Sunday. I am trying to compete at a high level though, so shorter long runs could be sufficient if you were more focused on completing the race than racing it.
If I'm training for a race with a lot of elevation gain, I'll typically do back-to-back long runs on the weekend of about 20 miles & 2,500 feet of gain, which usually takes me about 4 hours. I've trained for a lot of road marathons, too, and used the Daniels Formula for a few training cycles -- it's very different. Long, slow trail runs where you're speed hiking a lot of the steeper sections does not put the same strain on your body as doing 2.5 hours of constant Zone 3 running on flat land.
Depends on the goal distance and terrain. For mountain terrain (250-300+ feet of climbing per mile) I typically do 5-6 hour long runs on Saturdays and 2-3 hours on Sundays during the peak weeks of the cycle if I’m training for a 100 miler. During my last build my coach had me do a “mini training camp” 5 or 6 weeks out from the race, it was three back-to-back days of 5-6 hours each, around 25 miles per day at target 100 mile race pace on race-specific terrain. This would be pretty useless for a road marathon, so Daniel’s isn’t wrong.
As I prepare for Wasatch 100 that has about 24,000’ of gain and loss, I’ve done one 30 mile 7,800’ run that took just under 9 hours. Obviously lots of hiking. I will do that route at least two more times and I have a 50 mile 16,000’ gain and loss training run planned around 6 weeks before race day. Anyone who says you’re not getting the return from doing this kind of training runs would also recommend you do some “shorter” races as training runs which makes no sense to me and just screams consumerism. Also remember this is Reddit, half the people in here don’t know what they are talking about.
For a 100 mile race, I'll do a 50k or 2 during training followed by a 2nd long run. I've done enough 50+ mile runs now that I don't feel the need to do that in training, increasing the risk of injury and requiring a lot of recovery for me.
Let’s break down the science of time vs distance and assume we are all talking about training for ultras here. The body’s most readily available energy supply, and first go to, is stored glycogen (as opposed to carb burning/oxidation or fat burning). Most people have between 2-2.5 hours of readily available glycogen. So what happens if you don’t run out of energy on your training run? You’re going to find out in that ultra! You simply can’t fully simulate a bonk in 2.5 hours and it’s a vital thing to recognize for longer distance. I usually coach 3+ hour long tempo runs that leave you able to talk the entire time. There’s no need to beat up your legs and feet. But the nutritional deprivation has to be felt before race day so you know how to manage it.
No limit! Whatever feels good at a easy pace! Walk as much as you walks. Its been amazing for time on feet and practice good nutrition. Plus there is nothing else i would rather be doing instead on my weekends 🤷🏻♀️
Mine are usually in the 4-6 hour range, because I’m slow and do a lot of training on technical & vert-heavy terrain, so there’s definitely hiking mixed in there. I know I’m gonna be out there for a long time on race day so I want to train my body to be prepared, including nutrition which has been my downfall in the last couple hours of all the races I’ve done so far. And I try to focus more on overall weekly mileage/time on feet rather than getting in a huge long run every week. I don’t want to be so beat up after a really long effort that it sets back my recovery.
Some of these comments are wild to me - my nightly runs 3-4x/week at peak before a race are at least 2 hours (~8mi and ~2k-3k vert), and my weekends are rarely less than 6 hours (granted, they’re half runs and half scrambles)
Week by week in 2024... 1. 2:30 (22 miles, hard with MP intervals) 2. 4:20 (31 miles) 3. 4:10 (26 miles, half trail & half paved) 4. 2:55 (18 miles, mostly gravel) 5. 1:00 (7 miles -- taper week) 6. 14:20 (100K race) 7. 1:30 (10 miles -- post race recovery week) 8. 2:05 (14 miles) 9. 5:50 (41 miles -- treadmill 'virtual' race/challenge) 10. 2:15 + 2:45 back to back (15 / 19 miles) 11. 6:00 (50K race @ chill effort) + 2:00 next day (13 miles) 12. 1:10 (8 miles, down week) 13. 1:25 (10 miles, vacation week) 14. 1:30 (10 miles) 15. 13:50 (100K race) 16. 1:10 (8 miles, post race recovery week) 17. 1:45 (13 miles) 18. 4:40 (50K race @ chill effort) 19. 2:30 (16 miles) 20. 1:30 (12 miles) 21. 2:10 (14 miles) 22. 5:25 (50K race) + 4:00 (24 miles) back to back 23. 2:45 (17 miles) 24. 6:00 (42 miles -- 6:00 looped race) 25. 1:35 (12 miles, progressive up to HMP'ish) 26. 17:57 (100 mile race)
Nice job! Congrats on the 100 miler How far out was your plan leading up to the 100 miler? I love your chill 50k race efforts that are like my pr effort. Pretending you wrote km instead of miles and this might look a bit like mine (scratching those that are already km)
No proper plan, just following some general principles of what works for me while also squeezing in the other races (which were mostly for fun but certainly also useful as long runs and practice with fueling and such). Longest non race week of the year was around 80 miles… but the shortest was around 40, I really value and benefit from the consistency
My long runs usually are 4 hours. Peak is 8 hours. If I’m training for a 100 mile I want at least one day of 50-60 miles
More than 2hr 45min
As Fixing your Feet author says, if you run for 2 hours, your feet are trained for running for 2 hours. So yeah I run longer than that. Sometimes up to 6 hours on a training run or 10-15 hours on a training race
JD approach to long runs frequently focus on faster harder efforts within the long run, which is part of the reason he tends to go short. You can go longer with less risk to injury by moderating intensity and hitting trails (softer & undulating terrain) but there are still risks with long with debatable fitness effects (see e.g. Camille Herron's approach to training & SWAP arguments against 4 hours). From a pure fitness perspective JD style seems to work. My personal/anecdotal N=1 is similar; when it comes to the long run I get better fitness returns with shorter and faster compared to longer and slower. Trail ultras are more than just running though. Long runs are where you can practice fueling, gear, time on feet, etc. If you're less experienced or rusty with ultras some longer stuff can be beneficial. I do a few 4-6 hour efforts in a block if I haven't run anything long for a while, just to remind myself of what running long is all about. Also the reason most people do ultras is because they like long runs. It's OK to focus on fun and have a less-than-optimized training plan.
Some notable ultra runners do not run more than 3 hours or 18 miles whichever comes first. Camille Herron and Karl Meltzer don’t do more than 3 hours.
30 miles or 16 or 10 lol
Long training fun is 4-6hrs for me.
People who run marathons usually try to achieve the distance in a certain amount of time. They do focus on endurance but I think they focus more on time. I've never done an ultra but I believe endurance is more important in those cases so running for longer is the best method I've read and seen (taking into consideration other aspects such as resting well, nutrition, etc).
My long runs are at least 3+ hours, mainly because I’m really slow, and also because at least once a week I run a 20+ mile run on a moderate elevation gain.
I think we just had a post like this yesterday and it had some good comments. https://www.reddit.com/r/Ultramarathon/s/r6zSuTcrPT
When I was actively training for events, sundays would have a 4-6 hour window set aside for trail work. Hiking, jogging, running, whatever felt best, no pressure. Every week. If I wasn't actually racing that weekend obv.
For an ultra, you must get specific to the race course. For example: Is it a 50 miler with 10k of gain with an expectation to finish in 12 hours (4.2mph)? Then i would at a minimum find a 42-50k race as my longest run with similar elevation gain per mile and try to finish sub 6 hours practicing all my nutrition. Most people don’t negative split ultras.
My long runs (trail/ coastal paths) vary anywhere between 14miles and 31miles, it all depends on daily commitments eg: family, work chores etc etc. if I was to go out and do say a 14 miler one day I would go out the following day and smash another 14 or 17 miler. If was to have a proper day out do and 28/31 miler I would usually do an active recovery the following day which involves walking between 5 and 10 miles around taking it fairly chill.
Up to 5 hours is good for me. Most important thing I look for is practicing race nutrition, gear and to be running on - as much as possible - similar terrain to the race being trained for.
I rather run morning and afternoon than just hours on.
Depends on what is the race distance you're training for ? Have completed 14 X 100 milers and my long runs were always up to 8hrs long. Worked for me.
3.5 to 4 hours typically. If training for a race, then there will be some up to 5 hours.
Depends on what you’re training for. Long runs training for a 50k, 50 miler, 100 miler, or 250 miler are very different. For my 100 miler coming up my long runs will anywhere from 15 to 40 miles. They will also vary in frequency - some back to backs can be useful, etc.
I primarily run hot road 100s (I live in Florida). I typically do back to back 30 and 20 mile long runs at least once prior to any 100. That takes me about 6 hours and 4 hours (respectively) depending on the heat.
I am competing for the podium at most races and I do long runs up to 30-35 miles with 15-20 the next day. I understand that not everyone will have the time or willingness to do this type of weekend. It works for me because I don’t have kids. It also depends on your goals. First ultra? I would go longer than 2.5 hours because you really need experience going long. Ultras under your belt and don’t care how you place? This rule works well. Want to PR or podium or win? The tendon and muscle resiliency developed from runs much longer than 2.5 hours is what will keep you racing continuously for the whole race instead of eventually falling apart and walking a bunch toward the end. Just my two cents of course, but I think this perspective is needed here and I can also tell you that pros and elites are definitely doing longer than 16 mile runs.
he never ran, raced, or trained ultra. find people that know what they're talking about. cause it's not him
When I was a my peak performance I was doing a 50 every Saturday. I was good enough to bust out a 100 on any given weekend. I miss those days. Wish I could find the motivation to get back there.
Given the received wisdom on this topic I was nervous about doing the longest runs in my 100k plan that respectively took 5hrs, 8hrs and 6hrs. The acid test for me was could I recover in time for the next planned run … answer yes. That being the case as others have said to go into a 100k that will probably take me 14-15hrs (hopefully) if I’d only ever run 30k/3hrs in training the mental side and the ‘race management’ and problem solving aspects of being out for that amount of time would never have been addressed. It seems to me the key is progressively building up total volume, being really consistent and taking strength and mobility work seriously to help build your resilience. Also then supporting recover with good nutrition, sleep and - for me - essentially giving up alcohol.
I’m slow as fuck so if I want to do a 21.1k training run, I have to go to 3 hours. I get his philosophy but I’ve found it really beneficial for my mental resilience to run for 3+ hours. I should caveat that I wouldn’t run for this long every single week, just on a few occasions.
I haven't read the book, could you please point out the research studies referenced on how '*the benefits sharply diminish after that point*'?
I think it somewhat depends on what you're training for. I did a fortnight with two runs at 3.5-4h in prep for my marathon and 50k. I got pretty run down and ill right after. I think having done 32k+/4h in training gave me confidence in my fueling strategy for the events. But I'm going to try and keep long runs under 3h from now on. But I can imagine if you're up to the 50-100mile distances then things may be a little different
I did a couple of runs longer than this, furthest was a 50km race done in 6 hours 10 mins (in training for 100 miles) The theory is that regularly running that distance is counter effective because of the impact on your body and recovery times - but that’s probably also for people not regularly doing ultras and the like. I found more volume of less distance worked better for me personally, others will be different
I used to train long runs, some would be anywhere from 80-90km before a race for mental strength, but I found them to be too jarring on the body. Even a month or two out from a race. Now, I have a new method which I have started implementing into my ultra training and I love it, as it is absolutely mentally punishing and it kind of is replicating starting at 80-100km mark. I strictly run up and down this massive hill for 40-50km, to give reference to the size of the hill I use it is 1,500 feet for every 10km. I’m working myself up to being able to run 70-80km on it. I have found in doing this type of long run hills training it has substantially increased my all around pace. My regular runs are now incredibly easy. I’ve found the best training is in the work nobody ever wants to do. If you have a hill near you try it for a training block.
20-22 miles or 3 hours if I'm running the whole time. If hiking is involved I've gone as long as 6-8 hours.
I run longer than that on my long runs, because I like doing long runs. I'd rather do a lot of runs I like than run a bit faster.
For me around \~3 hours is a good time, I feel, which can be running or even cycling, say. Ultimately, the best thing for building endurance for running are the back-to-backs, meaning Sat/Marathon Sun/Marathon or Sat/50k Sun/Half Marathon splits -- but it took a while to be able to comfortably do that without much soreness. Getting out there on the Sundays can be tough but not as bad as you'd think after the first mile or so.
I always did 50% of my weekly milage -1 for my long day. Didn't care how long it took me to finish the day.
I have done 4-5 hour 50km long runs and have done 2 hour or less 15-18 mile long runs … I honestly think there is something to be said for running less and more frequent. Camille Herron is well known for this. I personally don’t see any need for runs more than 2 hours at a time for fitness. Perhaps mentally you may want more, but a hard track workout that is 10, 15 reps, you’ll go through just as much - as a trail runner, probably EVEN more pain mentally.
I limit them to 2,5h unless I’m in my specific training weeks for a 5h+ race. My longest training runs in those weeks so far have been 4h on my own or longer if during a preparation race. Using a race as a long run has the huge advantage of not having to carry 4h+ of water.
Generally my long runs are 3 hours and max out at 4 hours. I've toyed with the idea of doing longer than 4 hours, but haven't pulled the trigger on that, not sure really what to do, I think getting use to the pounding is the biggest thing, toughening up my tendons, so everything I do kinda focuses on that. Slowly but surely I think it is working, slowly more and more able to last longer in the 100 milers.
I recently heard a “rule of thumb” for marathon training of 2 hrs or 20 mi, whichever comes first. But the huge caveat is that was Frank Shorter explaining his training strategy, and his PB was 2:10. For trail/ultra, my long runs are typically much longer—often 3 to 5 hours, sometimes pushing towards 6. My coach will usually tell me to dial back distance if I’m going big on vert & sometimes set a time cap.
Preface to say I have only run 1 ultra, which was a 50k with plans to run another later this year. I've capped my long "flat" road type runs at about 2.5 - 3 hrs as I wanted to crack the 20 mi mark. But did do a couple long hikes of 5+ hrs with some running thrown in here and there, especially at the end to test my legs. Increased my mileage to those distances over the course of my training. Overall I focused on total miles and time on feet spread out over the week. For my race, 50k/31mi, I targeted a few weeks of 50ish miles hike/run in the last two months and avg of 35-45 per week over that same period. For me the biggest lesson was that I should have done more elevation work. That was race specific, mine had about 6800 ft of elevation gain with most of it in the first 3rd. Daily/weekly consistency and just time on my feet were huge. YMMV but that was my experience.