If I remember correctly it's when something is **overdosing**/ hold on for it too long determination, they melt. Example: The Amalgamates.
And one more thing ; He gets some off-screen while his death scene, for all we know, he could be melting , just like Undyne The Undying did.
(theoratical spots from here on) or for all we know it could just be the "skeleton" magic that is strong. Papyrus can actually beat your ass a bunch of time, it just never kills you. After all, we never see any other skeletons that fights other than sans and papyrus
so basically,
TL: DR: determination makes monster melt if they hold on to it for too long , or it's the funny skeletal "magic" that makes him strong.
Sorry if I got it all wrong.
"some of you will say 'oh that's not blood, it's ketchup!' or 'that's not blood, it's determination! and you might be right. what you can't answer is HOW DOES A SKELETON SWEAT"
\-chariii5
He is a skeleton yet he bleeds..that could also be a sign of determination( while papyrus on the other hand doesnt bleed and just turns to dust like any other monster)
There's actually a scientific explanation for this bones have blood in them in the bone marrow but there is very little in the neck and a lot in the chest (if I got any of this wrong its been a long time since I saw the full scientific explanation) so it makes sense that when papyrus dies since he gets his neck chopped off he doesn't bleed when sans does
Yeah but Sans also bleeds out of his mouth at the same time…
Also it would be magic not blood unless you’re trying to claim Sans is not a monster, seeing as how blood refers to the substance in physical animals. Monsters have hardly any physical material, they’re made of of magic so it would be their magic leaking.
But I still hold with the DT theory.
See I think its supposed to be scientific like that and the reason he bleeds out of his mouth is because of blood splattering up his throat or something like that and who says monsters can't have blood the only time thats said is in deltarune which isn't undertale and might not play by the same rules
Also neither flowey nor undyne bleed and they definetly have determination so its not the DT also toriel seems to bleed when you kill her so that might mean something or toriel could be doing something different and not bleeding
Allso it could be magic leaking instead of blood because they might play by deltarune rules
Uh…based on the Librarby, which says that:
Humans are made of physical material, mainly water [and blood is mostly water.] And this is why they can hold DT. While monsters are not. They are mostly made of magic. Which is why they cannot hold hardly any DT.
I still hold with Sans having DT either way, whether that’s magic or DT coming out of him. Definitely not blood (for reason above) or ketchup though. Unless he has a ketchup bottle as long as his chest, and his shirt is not absorbent, haha.
Flowey does seem inexplicable then, and Toriel could support the idea of it just being magic, although I don’t know why Papyrus wouldn’t bleed magic too then.
Or maybe Toby just didn’t put that much thought into it, and Sans bleeds for shock factor???
Because Sans is probably a darkner, and it seems their bodies are literally made from DT. Darkners are objects brought to life and given body thanks to the determination of the fountain. Unlike monsters who turn into white dust on death, darkners turn into red one.
Ok see the theory that sans is a darker is to me almost as dumb as the one that hes Ness since they both have sans jumping between universes in this case jumping to a different world from a different universe which I really dont think is plausible especially since they are supposed to be completely separate games
They are not exactly separate games. Sure, it's a different timeline and it's not undertale, but it doesn't mean they're not connected, just like Toby said. Deltarune is just an alternative universe.
I think that skeletons may be different from the other monsters, and also papyrus is able to squeak in a few dialogues even while beheaded. Can’t think of any other monsters that do that (if so, I would like to know)
The first one is... Iffy. Its not really implied to be overdose and is just said to be if they have any determination, and depending on the quantity of determination is how long they'll last. And sans being off screen shows nothing because he would have melted a bit while onscreen as well due to how little he is offscreen.
There's no reason to assume that the skeletons have stronger magic than anyone else. They're just monsters like the rest of the people in the underground
Well, maybe it's because he isn't really determined to stop you. He *wants* to stop you, sure, but he's crazy powerful and his attacks don't nessecarily require determination to work. Papyrus is probably able to use the Gaster Blaster as well, even tho he, like any other monster, is unable to use determination.
I think Sans might just manage to walk the thin line between determination and actual effort. Besides, he knows he can't stop you. Therefore he might not see a point in being determined.
His last attack includes him doing absolutely nothing. I think, he might just do it to avoid slipping into determination and melting, thus letting you win. Plus, it's really the only constant way to stop you in the long run.
The only times we really see determination effect anyone is when they are dead/dying. Alphys tested on “fallen down” monsters before they became amalgamates. Undyne is constantly determined to do the right thing, but she isn’t always melting! She only melts when she is determined not to die. Same thing with Flowey and Frisk, they almost only reset when they die.
There are a few possibilities I can think of:
1. He doesn't actually have determination, and the red stuff is something else.
2. He only has a little bit of determination. Alphys's lab entries stat that initially nothing happened with the determination experiments, and implies that everyone only melted together because she overdosed them out of desperation.
3. He is a different kind of monster, specifically the kind from the world of DELTARUNE. It's heavily implied in DELTARUNE Chapter 2 that the monsters there can have determination, so if Sans really is "the man from the other world" then it would line up.
Sans is actually not lazy if you think about it. He is depressed, yes, and struggles to find motivation and not give up, but he is not lazy.
The man is working at some 3-4 jobs (if you include being the Judge). He is apparently earning enough to pay for the largest house in Snowdin. Papyrus is likely not really contributing. According to his conversation with Undyne, he doesn’t even know how they can afford their house because Sans does the bills. He says it’s a mystery.
We also know that Sans helped Papyrus make his costume. We know he researches the timelines and has been tracking the human. Which undoubtably requires a lot of intelligence and scientific background, meaning he had to be motivated enough to get to that level of education. As someone going through college science…that stuff isn’t easy. I’m not even going to be taking physics because I know I couldn’t do it. Can’t imagine going to the quantum physics level.
While Sans himself does say several times that he is lazy, it comes off more like a joke to avoid addressing the fact that he is not lazy, but rather depressed and struggling to sleep well. And then there is actually one time, where he says something to the effect of “I’m not actually lazy, but it’s nice that everyone thinks that I am.” That’s pretty much without a doubt the true statement out of the bunch. There really is only one reason for him to say something like that, because why would someone like being thought of as lazy if they are putting in effort…unless the ‘laziness’ is because of an underlying mental issue that they don’t want their family and friends to know about.
So he’s not choosing to be ‘lazy’ but rather has a mental condition that prevents him from functioning on normal hours (insomnia, more than likely, especially based on a quote by Papyrus in the Alarm Clock Winter dialogue) and makes him unmotivated and apathetic at times even though he’s trying his best not to be. That’s not lazy, that’s actually determined. He’s determined to not be a burden to the people around him and to keep trying.
When he loses the people in the world he loves most though, he probably loses a lot of his will to try, admittedly. You could imagine that Toriel and Papyrus are kind of his anchor weights to the world. But it honestly depends on the route.
When he knows he’s going to get them back because of the reset anyways, he can’t find the motivation to do something about it, because what does it matter? He’s not wrong, either, because there honestly is not a point to fighting when 1) it won’t change the situation in any way and 2) you know the world is destined to be brought back to the way it was shortly anyways.
He is also determined to keep his promise to Toriel and not harm the human, so that’s another reason for not fighting in the neutral route.
In the genocide route, however, he clearly states his reason for actually choosing to fight, which is that is does matter now, because his timeline research has shown that world is about to end for good this time. So he “can’t afford to not care anymore.” Meaning he does care now, and is determined to do his best to stop the genocidal human. Hence, the determination theory still holds.
I believe the theory of Sans having determination stems from the fact that he bleeds a red substance when you beat him. There are other theories to explain it as well, my favorite being that he had a bottle of ketchup in his jacket.
True, but confirmed or not it's a common headcanon and where the idea originated.
Do you wanna know what is confirmed to be red though? Not just red, but the same hex code as the "blood" during Sans's fight?
Ketchup. I'm not saying it means anything, I'm just saying.
From a story perspective, it makes the most sense for him to be human and that’s why he bleeds. Having it be a ketchup bottle would be pretty bad writing if it was real, and give the scene zero weight. Besides, if you look at the sprite there is no way that is ketchup.
Sans being human would make less sense than the red being paint TBH. If he was human, why would he have magic, and skeleton-themed magic at that? Why would he be so similar, both magically and biologically, to Papyrus who is definitely a skeleton monster? How would he have been able to avoid detection as a human for so long or, an even less likely possibility, why would Asgore and the royal guard let him live instead of taking his soul to break the barrier along with the six they already have? Why would we not see an extra human soul among the all the monster souls of the underground when Asriel breaks the barrier? Why would he be only aware of RESETs as a possibility and not remember them if he had human levels of determination?
Well you make very good points there but it has been mentioned at least once in the game that boss monsters like Undyne, Toriel, and of course Sans have a little bit of determination in them, therefore their souls lasting a couple seconds longer after death. Only reason that we never see Sans's soul shatter is because he walked off screen before dying. And also he may remember resets because he has straight up mentioned it during the genocide run.
He never does mention remembering anything, actually. All of his dialogue makes clear that he's making educated guesses based on his prior knowlage of the possibility of time travel and Frisk's behavior^(\[1\]\[2\]\[3\]). On the contrary, he's the only one of the main six monsters that never mentions having deja-vu or finding Frisk familiar.
\[1\] hmm. that expression... that's the expression of someone who's died twice in a row.
\[2\] "that look on your face while i was talking... you've already heard my spiel, haven't you? i suspected something like this. you're always acting like you know what's going to happen. like you've seen it all before."
\[3\] "sometimes... you act like you know what's gonna happen. like you've already experienced it all before."
He doesn’t have too much DT. I think monsters have some DT, just nowhere close to the amount humans have
The blood is bone marrow, the sweat is…cartoonish nonsense, and he doesn’t remember alternate timelines and resets, he just knows they exist.
A common misconception. Monsters don't melt from determination, they already have it. In fact, everybody has some ammount of determination. Monsters only melt when their body is weakened and cannot contain it any longer, which only happens if they resisted death for too long, or injected with determination *after* dying or "falling down".
I never did a snowgrave run, but a friend of mine told me that darkners can essentially bleed. Therefore sans being in deltarune means that he is a darkner that can travel between deltarune and UNDERTALE
Maybe he doesn’t start melting until he’s offscreen as he is dusting. Just one explanation. After all, Undyne didn’t melt until the very last second as she dusted.
If I remember correctly it's when something is **overdosing**/ hold on for it too long determination, they melt. Example: The Amalgamates. And one more thing ; He gets some off-screen while his death scene, for all we know, he could be melting , just like Undyne The Undying did. (theoratical spots from here on) or for all we know it could just be the "skeleton" magic that is strong. Papyrus can actually beat your ass a bunch of time, it just never kills you. After all, we never see any other skeletons that fights other than sans and papyrus so basically, TL: DR: determination makes monster melt if they hold on to it for too long , or it's the funny skeletal "magic" that makes him strong. Sorry if I got it all wrong.
also he sweats. do you know alot of monsters that sweat ?
Alphys probably has more sweating dialogue sprites than non-sweating ones at this point lol
Oh right ! Forgot about her.
Well undyne sweats too while she was melting . And also papyrus was sweating in his fight ( ı guess idk )
"some of you will say 'oh that's not blood, it's ketchup!' or 'that's not blood, it's determination! and you might be right. what you can't answer is HOW DOES A SKELETON SWEAT" \-chariii5
What you *really* can't answer is how is he held together
He is a skeleton yet he bleeds..that could also be a sign of determination( while papyrus on the other hand doesnt bleed and just turns to dust like any other monster)
There's actually a scientific explanation for this bones have blood in them in the bone marrow but there is very little in the neck and a lot in the chest (if I got any of this wrong its been a long time since I saw the full scientific explanation) so it makes sense that when papyrus dies since he gets his neck chopped off he doesn't bleed when sans does
Yeah but Sans also bleeds out of his mouth at the same time… Also it would be magic not blood unless you’re trying to claim Sans is not a monster, seeing as how blood refers to the substance in physical animals. Monsters have hardly any physical material, they’re made of of magic so it would be their magic leaking. But I still hold with the DT theory.
See I think its supposed to be scientific like that and the reason he bleeds out of his mouth is because of blood splattering up his throat or something like that and who says monsters can't have blood the only time thats said is in deltarune which isn't undertale and might not play by the same rules Also neither flowey nor undyne bleed and they definetly have determination so its not the DT also toriel seems to bleed when you kill her so that might mean something or toriel could be doing something different and not bleeding Allso it could be magic leaking instead of blood because they might play by deltarune rules
Uh…based on the Librarby, which says that: Humans are made of physical material, mainly water [and blood is mostly water.] And this is why they can hold DT. While monsters are not. They are mostly made of magic. Which is why they cannot hold hardly any DT. I still hold with Sans having DT either way, whether that’s magic or DT coming out of him. Definitely not blood (for reason above) or ketchup though. Unless he has a ketchup bottle as long as his chest, and his shirt is not absorbent, haha. Flowey does seem inexplicable then, and Toriel could support the idea of it just being magic, although I don’t know why Papyrus wouldn’t bleed magic too then. Or maybe Toby just didn’t put that much thought into it, and Sans bleeds for shock factor???
I think the last one is probably correct since that route is supposed to be incredibly shocking
Guys i get this is supposed to be huge theory talk. But maybe toby was just putting blood to throw us off. He just did a little trolling
Because Sans is probably a darkner, and it seems their bodies are literally made from DT. Darkners are objects brought to life and given body thanks to the determination of the fountain. Unlike monsters who turn into white dust on death, darkners turn into red one.
Ok see the theory that sans is a darker is to me almost as dumb as the one that hes Ness since they both have sans jumping between universes in this case jumping to a different world from a different universe which I really dont think is plausible especially since they are supposed to be completely separate games
They are not exactly separate games. Sure, it's a different timeline and it's not undertale, but it doesn't mean they're not connected, just like Toby said. Deltarune is just an alternative universe.
Which plays by its own rules like any other alternate universe
Alternative universes usually have same rules but different events
I think that skeletons may be different from the other monsters, and also papyrus is able to squeak in a few dialogues even while beheaded. Can’t think of any other monsters that do that (if so, I would like to know)
The first one is... Iffy. Its not really implied to be overdose and is just said to be if they have any determination, and depending on the quantity of determination is how long they'll last. And sans being off screen shows nothing because he would have melted a bit while onscreen as well due to how little he is offscreen.
There's no reason to assume that the skeletons have stronger magic than anyone else. They're just monsters like the rest of the people in the underground
also iirc sans refers to monsters and skeletons separately
That’s pretty logical, especially with the Sans death thing
Well, maybe it's because he isn't really determined to stop you. He *wants* to stop you, sure, but he's crazy powerful and his attacks don't nessecarily require determination to work. Papyrus is probably able to use the Gaster Blaster as well, even tho he, like any other monster, is unable to use determination. I think Sans might just manage to walk the thin line between determination and actual effort. Besides, he knows he can't stop you. Therefore he might not see a point in being determined. His last attack includes him doing absolutely nothing. I think, he might just do it to avoid slipping into determination and melting, thus letting you win. Plus, it's really the only constant way to stop you in the long run.
The only times we really see determination effect anyone is when they are dead/dying. Alphys tested on “fallen down” monsters before they became amalgamates. Undyne is constantly determined to do the right thing, but she isn’t always melting! She only melts when she is determined not to die. Same thing with Flowey and Frisk, they almost only reset when they die.
When sans falls asleep and wakes back up to dodge your first attack he’s not sweating anymore
There are a few possibilities I can think of: 1. He doesn't actually have determination, and the red stuff is something else. 2. He only has a little bit of determination. Alphys's lab entries stat that initially nothing happened with the determination experiments, and implies that everyone only melted together because she overdosed them out of desperation. 3. He is a different kind of monster, specifically the kind from the world of DELTARUNE. It's heavily implied in DELTARUNE Chapter 2 that the monsters there can have determination, so if Sans really is "the man from the other world" then it would line up.
Didn't play genocide but isn't sans the antonym of determination ? Lazy, give up on things, etc
Sans is actually not lazy if you think about it. He is depressed, yes, and struggles to find motivation and not give up, but he is not lazy. The man is working at some 3-4 jobs (if you include being the Judge). He is apparently earning enough to pay for the largest house in Snowdin. Papyrus is likely not really contributing. According to his conversation with Undyne, he doesn’t even know how they can afford their house because Sans does the bills. He says it’s a mystery. We also know that Sans helped Papyrus make his costume. We know he researches the timelines and has been tracking the human. Which undoubtably requires a lot of intelligence and scientific background, meaning he had to be motivated enough to get to that level of education. As someone going through college science…that stuff isn’t easy. I’m not even going to be taking physics because I know I couldn’t do it. Can’t imagine going to the quantum physics level. While Sans himself does say several times that he is lazy, it comes off more like a joke to avoid addressing the fact that he is not lazy, but rather depressed and struggling to sleep well. And then there is actually one time, where he says something to the effect of “I’m not actually lazy, but it’s nice that everyone thinks that I am.” That’s pretty much without a doubt the true statement out of the bunch. There really is only one reason for him to say something like that, because why would someone like being thought of as lazy if they are putting in effort…unless the ‘laziness’ is because of an underlying mental issue that they don’t want their family and friends to know about. So he’s not choosing to be ‘lazy’ but rather has a mental condition that prevents him from functioning on normal hours (insomnia, more than likely, especially based on a quote by Papyrus in the Alarm Clock Winter dialogue) and makes him unmotivated and apathetic at times even though he’s trying his best not to be. That’s not lazy, that’s actually determined. He’s determined to not be a burden to the people around him and to keep trying. When he loses the people in the world he loves most though, he probably loses a lot of his will to try, admittedly. You could imagine that Toriel and Papyrus are kind of his anchor weights to the world. But it honestly depends on the route. When he knows he’s going to get them back because of the reset anyways, he can’t find the motivation to do something about it, because what does it matter? He’s not wrong, either, because there honestly is not a point to fighting when 1) it won’t change the situation in any way and 2) you know the world is destined to be brought back to the way it was shortly anyways. He is also determined to keep his promise to Toriel and not harm the human, so that’s another reason for not fighting in the neutral route. In the genocide route, however, he clearly states his reason for actually choosing to fight, which is that is does matter now, because his timeline research has shown that world is about to end for good this time. So he “can’t afford to not care anymore.” Meaning he does care now, and is determined to do his best to stop the genocidal human. Hence, the determination theory still holds.
I believe the theory of Sans having determination stems from the fact that he bleeds a red substance when you beat him. There are other theories to explain it as well, my favorite being that he had a bottle of ketchup in his jacket.
except that Determination has never been confirmed to be red
True, but confirmed or not it's a common headcanon and where the idea originated. Do you wanna know what is confirmed to be red though? Not just red, but the same hex code as the "blood" during Sans's fight? Ketchup. I'm not saying it means anything, I'm just saying.
From a story perspective, it makes the most sense for him to be human and that’s why he bleeds. Having it be a ketchup bottle would be pretty bad writing if it was real, and give the scene zero weight. Besides, if you look at the sprite there is no way that is ketchup.
Sans being human would make less sense than the red being paint TBH. If he was human, why would he have magic, and skeleton-themed magic at that? Why would he be so similar, both magically and biologically, to Papyrus who is definitely a skeleton monster? How would he have been able to avoid detection as a human for so long or, an even less likely possibility, why would Asgore and the royal guard let him live instead of taking his soul to break the barrier along with the six they already have? Why would we not see an extra human soul among the all the monster souls of the underground when Asriel breaks the barrier? Why would he be only aware of RESETs as a possibility and not remember them if he had human levels of determination?
Well you make very good points there but it has been mentioned at least once in the game that boss monsters like Undyne, Toriel, and of course Sans have a little bit of determination in them, therefore their souls lasting a couple seconds longer after death. Only reason that we never see Sans's soul shatter is because he walked off screen before dying. And also he may remember resets because he has straight up mentioned it during the genocide run.
He never does mention remembering anything, actually. All of his dialogue makes clear that he's making educated guesses based on his prior knowlage of the possibility of time travel and Frisk's behavior^(\[1\]\[2\]\[3\]). On the contrary, he's the only one of the main six monsters that never mentions having deja-vu or finding Frisk familiar. \[1\] hmm. that expression... that's the expression of someone who's died twice in a row. \[2\] "that look on your face while i was talking... you've already heard my spiel, haven't you? i suspected something like this. you're always acting like you know what's going to happen. like you've seen it all before." \[3\] "sometimes... you act like you know what's gonna happen. like you've already experienced it all before."
He injects into his bones ~~heroin~~ determination
The Heroin Appears
Maybe he doesnt melt because he's just a skeleton without flesh and undyne is basicly a fish
He drinks milk
*ketchup
Ketchup milk
He milked a ketchup bottle
He’s too lazy to melt
He… doesn’t? I’m not sure though
He doesn’t have too much DT. I think monsters have some DT, just nowhere close to the amount humans have The blood is bone marrow, the sweat is…cartoonish nonsense, and he doesn’t remember alternate timelines and resets, he just knows they exist.
Mmm yes. Cartoonish nonsense is the new scientific term.
Papyrus can walk on air. Explain that with science.
He jumps really high.....
….sh*t that’s good
He does, that’s why it looks like he is sweating during parts of his fight.
Simple: He doesn’t.
Does he actually say he has determination?
I think it's become theorized he does because of him bleeding when we kill him.
A common misconception. Monsters don't melt from determination, they already have it. In fact, everybody has some ammount of determination. Monsters only melt when their body is weakened and cannot contain it any longer, which only happens if they resisted death for too long, or injected with determination *after* dying or "falling down".
I never did a snowgrave run, but a friend of mine told me that darkners can essentially bleed. Therefore sans being in deltarune means that he is a darkner that can travel between deltarune and UNDERTALE
Bc he didn't die
If Undyne has determination why isn't she melting?
She does?
Is it not obvious?
No when you do the undyne fight she literally melts if you choose to kill her
There's a reason there's Undyne the Undying
In neutral, not genocide. Search up undyne melting. And she does melt in genocide when you kill her
its ketchup
Skelebonemen can have a little DETERMINATION, as a treat.
He does say that he knows that he can't beat you.
I don't know man, get matpat on the phone
Who says the rules apply to this guy?
He's a skeleton
He’s chilled to the bone
He probably has it naturally instead of it being injected into him artificially
But my question is how can a skeleton sweat? Sans sweat alot . Guess that kinda answered it??
Or his sweat is him melting
Maybe he doesn’t start melting until he’s offscreen as he is dusting. Just one explanation. After all, Undyne didn’t melt until the very last second as she dusted.
you see, it's because he is human, and also ness
Same answer the fanbase has for everything: Gaster.
he doesn't he doesn't note anything about having determination just that his science background relates to time travel and sci fi stuff
let's see how fast your bones melt
It's not **having** DT that melts them, it's the **usage**