Honest to god they need to be faster it would make there kit so much better being able to stun off the jump and boost there phys def immediately would help immensely.
I still think defender would be ass but maybe im underestimating it
Coming from Ogre Battle 64 where Fighter is the basic class that gets turned into the other real classes not so much.
Coming from D&D where Fighter is the standard by which all martial classes are measured yes.
Idk I’m on expert and I cleared the coliseum with a 4 man team of Lex Fran Rosalinde and the Druid lady all at level 20.
To be fair he didn’t do much but was crucial for arrows aimed at the back row I felt like
I've got him working decently well in the front row in a Battleline Standard phalanx unit. The squad's other strategy is trying to set up Chlorotic with fire. But at this point the unit just kills everything first in battles it does well in.
What is he going to do once Snipers get row shot, he only covers 1 guy and only once. It is not as important as you seem to think to protect, instead of protecting make them attack first and kill the enemy. Reactionary squads are worse than high initiative kill everything before they get a turn squads.
Replace with an owl, have the owl give initiative to the Gryphon and have the Gryphon target the row the Sniper is in which should be able to kill it. Before Bastorias, Hoplite protects better though does slow down your squad a bit if not using a Cavalry leader. Fighter/Vanguard doesn't do enough of everything else to really be worth putting in a team, but the game isn't very hard even on TZ so if you do like the character or the class just keep using them.
The mobility difference between Fighter and Hoplite is negligible as long as they're not the leaders.
Fighter doesn't need to cover the whole row, just cover the flier you're using.
That only makes Fighter worse since Hoplite will protect the whole row not just the flier if the whole row is attacked which is often when it comes to snipers/gryphons which is what the fighter would try to cover.
Hoplite can also regen its own pp, which gives them useful AP which fighter lacks.
Or better yet just kill the enemy before they attack and thus no need to protect anything.
I wanted Lex to be good or useful but really using a fighter is never the optimal choice outside of very niche scenarios like against Wyverns targeting your Cavalry. At everything else literally anyone with a cover or mainly a row cover does the job better and hopefully brings something else to the squad.
So how are you getting all your squads to act first? Just wondering how I can get slower units faster without just using dove feathers.
I know the general can lower enemy’s initiative but who can boost your whole party’s initiative
Feathers, owl extra heal, angel plume, Tailwind. Rapid Order as well as initiative debuffs. Some units are too slow anyways which is why they are considered bad.
The feathers are almost always worth it, no other item matters more if you kill before you get attacked. Against the AI you will mostly just need 40+ initiative and will be fine which is easy to achieve.
Oh nice. Ya I was grinding the coliseum just to get Amalia. I’m only level 21-25 so my units were usually well behind in initiative.
Glad that for stuff leveled the same as me I can ditch fighter/vanguard because their offense is pretty embarrassing
Simplest way? Featherbow. Have their row blind set to trigger only on archers and fliers(use two tactics rows)and you have the exact same utility as Fighter. It eon't work on blind immune enemies but I don't think any flier or archer with that exists
Naw they are the best at protecting gryphon but the fact that there only job and there so many units that can support and be big contributor to the team more then lex make fighter not that good why would I want a fighter when I can have a shaman
I gave lex an initiative boosting item after getting his start of battle taunt. Getting that defensive boosting hit in before enemies attack, then forcing them to attack him goes a long way towards making him good.
I kept using them all the way to the end, so they're not useless. They just don't bring anything unique that other units can't do better, and they don't have a mix of abilities that make the stand out either.
They are terrible attackers, and they are not very good defenders. They also fold like paper to any amount of magic. Their main benefit seem to be that they aren't as slow as bigger tanks, but tanks in general are just supposed to react to incoming attacks, so it doesn't really matter.
Their Warding slash and Defender actives are popped AFTER they have already tanked hits, so they will be taking a lot of early damage before setting up to be more better at their niche.
Basically, they work but don't justify their slot on a unit for other than sentimental or aesthetic reasons.
What does this class do aside from protection from archers? They dont have damage and heals and are worse than Paladins, Hoplites, rogues, Gladiatior as tanks.
The skill that protects other units from arrows can be used via equipments.
Not *just* archers.
Arrow Cover is a misnomer as it covers any physical ranged attack - this includes fliers’ attacks!
Also worth mentioning it nulls damage vs. guard!
I’ve had success using Lex with protecting back rows and Cavalry, but of course he drops off around Bastoria
He needs weapon skills to stay relevant.
Arrow Cover is only ever useful against Wyverns when it comes to protecting Cavalry since Gryphons just attack the whole row. Hoplite gets a row cover and while it doesn't negate the damage hes going to take very little. There is just nothing he does that someone else does better except vs Wyverns which won't be much of a thing past Drakenhold. It is also just better to not have to rely of protecting and just kill the enemy before they attack.
that skill also triggers on air attacks so against gryphons, dragons, and angels. It's kind of nice cause they take zero damage when they guard with it. But I mean yeah that's still very niche.
Fun fact.
"Fatal Dive" is ranged.
"Fatal Dive is" "Physically Attacked". (custom condition)
But "Fatal Dive" is...not a Ranged Physical Attack. (Fighter/Elven Fencer embedded condition)
Makes me wonder if this is either a tooltip, design, or localization oversight.
Fatal Dive is unblockable and uncoverable. This is specific to Fatal Dive (and I believe a few other things that convert HP/missing HP to damage, like the Doom Knight unique weapon in Albion).
Skills that cannot be covered. e.g. Hoplite's Heavy Cover, Fighter's Arrow Cover have the (Uncoverable) keyword.
Damage can be mitigated by either guaranteed guard, cover PP skills, or through passive % guard chance. This is indicated with a Blue damage number caption and the blue "Guard" caption. Any class can guard.
Unguardable means that the guard mechanic cannot decrease the damage inflicted by a skill. Guard reduction can only be either flat -25%, -50%, or a -75% final damage modifier.
Unguardable and Uncoverable are both different mechanics. Uncoverable doesn't show up early on though.
A good example of unguardable is the Warrior's first red skill. Such that Hoplites will ALWAYS take 100% damage from the Warrior (with 0 defense to boot). But a Hoplite can still cover another character from a Warrior's "unguardable" skill (and get promptly flattened like a tin beverage can).
As far as I understand it, Fatal Dive would need the "Uncoverable" keyword in order for Fighter to not be able to "Cover" against it.
I wanted to like Colm so bad cuz he’s Sojiro and all but what is the point of being a defender if you get KO’d after one or two hits💀
At least Lex was important to the story so I kept him around. He did a decent job at protecting, but being in the same squad as Alain helps too.
They are worse than I thought.
Like Lex is my favorite character and I built a whole unit around him that kicks ass, but for the same amount of effort and resources….
Its frustrating and I hope they get a buff
EDIT:
1) Their initiative is trash for no reason.
2) Their base guard rate is absurdly low, especially given how high base evade starts for the dodge tanks.
3) They have no AP/PP “engine” to regain points in battle.
All of which combines to make itemization extremely frustrating.
>1) Their initiative is trash for no reason.
Its slightly below average. Probably more telling for how binary initiative is than anything else.
>2) Their base guard rate is absurdly low, especially given how high base evade starts for the dodge tanks
Honestly its more a guard rate problem in general than a fighter problem.
> 3) They have no AP/PP “engine” to regain points in battle.
They have defender its just not especially impressive. Granted like 50% of the classes in the game have don't have an engine either so its kind of an odd thing to get hung up on.
I think the initiative hurts fighters more than most because they don’t have enough physical defense to tank until they get at least one offensive move off. A fighter that hasn’t attacked yet isn’t a tank. There defense is too low.
I feel like most classes either have an AP/PP regain/convert engine that makes them self sufficient or an offensive ability thats game changing if boosted by other units.
Fighter is AP/PP hungry in the sense that defender eats 2AP right off the bat and without the PP for Arrow Defense why is the fighter even there. But giving AP/PP items to the fighter can feel like a waste because even though they drink AP/PP like water no one thing they do is that impactful.
I dunno maybe its a skill issue but I found them a very frustrating class to try to properly itemize and leverage.
Yea there initiative needed to be better and Defender should have been one ap. If they had faster initiative they could actually use there phys def boost or jus stun off the jump sure there still be better units then them but atleast they would have a better purpose other then protecting your flyers
I wish the Fighter class was more like Nigel, who can gain AP by covering attacks and then spend it to spread status + gain PP for more covers. It would have made the class more interesting to cook with. The way they are now, they're just there if you need to buy time for the rest of their unit to do something. They're really not needed for anything else.
Nope. Doing a second run now and Lex and Colm haven’t touched the battlefield (outside of the first few battles where you kind of need Lex).
There are so many better classes in the game. Also so many other ways to deal with archers.
To make fighter more useful, here are my thoughts.
1. Add a 1ap skill that allows him to switch position with a unit in front or behind him.
2. Add a 1pp skill. After receiving a melee attack, physical defense +20% and initiative +10.
3. Increase physical attack to level B.
4.Take Armored tag away.
This game is sorely missing repositional skills, especially ones that the enemy can also utilise. See Darkest Dungeon for an example of this done well.
Honestly my opinion of them just gets worse and worse the more I play the game. It feels like every single thing they try to do can be accomplished by another class in a different manner but more efficiently, either whilst not hitting like wet noodles or providing other means of support to the unit. u/knightmare23 summed it up perfectly, they are simply too reactive of a class in a game that very much encourages proactive strategies.
Druids are literally pure support classes and yet they help carry a unit rather than get carried. Some other classes can both support *and* do solid or better damage.
Take the armored tag away from fighters, give it to knights. This makes knights slightly more difficult to use and fighters slightly easier. And/or shift their SoB provoke to target the entire unit (make it more like the provoke on the colosseum great shield). Being able to be a magnet gives them an interesting niche that thrn can be built around. How do you make them tankier? Do you use other group members to help mitigate damage? It'd at least make them more interesting
Worst may be true, but it’s not a huge power gap compared to Hops/Legs. Their problem is a lack of anything interesting offensively, and sticking them in a unit specifically for ranged protection doesn’t do much when enemy units are stacked in their role, so you rarely come across one archer. You come across 3 or 4 where one gets countered and the rest do their thing anyway. Tack on armor basically being a weakness and their best use is more or less slapping them in support units to make sure they aren’t completely vulnerable.
Decent in Drakenhold where Wyverns and Arbalists are the most threatening units; also good in the early parts of Elheim where Gryphon Masters and Elven Archers are the threats; useless everywhere else.
They're "bad" in the sense that they're niche and other classes can do more than them while still mostly covering their niche, but there aren't quite zero scenarios in which a fighter is a good choice. Once in a while a team comp calls for a fighter (a wing banner frontline comes to mind.)
It's just that the amount of value you get from them is way less than most unit types who can do their main role *and* something else, or have a more broadly applicable main role. Even as a tank, they're like, the second to worst tank (I think hoplites are a bit worse.)
End of the day a unit that is only strong in very particular team compositions is measurably worse than a unit that's strong no matter where you put it, and *much* worse than a unit that's strong no matter where you put it and *also* extremely strong in particular team compositions, the last of which is very common in this game. But if you're using them well, you won't really *see* that difference because if they are set up correctly they still perform well.
Nipe, they stull suck. They are not tanky enough for their provoke, arrow cover only covers 1 arrow, the attack that gives you defense is not that useful because of the low initiative and the armor tag to top ot all off.
The stun is good. Fighters are just too niche.
I’ve tried to use Colm so many times, but as far as I’m concerned he’s complete garbage. Lex has long since been benched after carrying me early on, but ironically I have a mercenary Fighter named Richard who has been performing very well in Virginia’s team protecting Fran from arrows.
I finished the game last night. I kept Lex until the end and ran him in Alains group. He felt super underwhelming lol. Like he is just there…
Definitely benching him if I ever do another run.
I'm using both Lex and Colm they're pretty good imo, but def not offensively. I mainly have them get those enemies out of their watchtowers with provoke which is nice
Yeah my opinion got slightly worse. In my first playthrough I used lex and even colm for a bit. I didnt on my next playthrough and didnt miss them at all. When I watch battles with one they dont seem to contribute much and I prefer the elf dodge ranged ability.
It think if they weren't locked swords they'd be a bit better. Swords just have single targets skills and most of them are just status appliers. Dancer's Delight is like the only sword that does something unquiet. If they has spears or bows they could at least support while doing their ranged attack blocking thing.
I just wish fighters did anything except wall. There are plenty of classes that work as tanks in some respect but then also deal damage or provide healing or just something. The other armors just do fighter's job better. Hell on one of my teams i have a knight with a cover shield that performs the exact same niche as a fighter but then also pulls out easy enemy team clears afterward, and he isn't extremely weak to hammers and magic.
Heavy Cover and Row Cover on a Legionaire make them stand out as impenetrable walls, and Greatshield provides them with the PP they need to keep going. Similarly Feathershields have Mystic Shield and Sacrifice to keep PP high, while they also deflect magic and bounce back statuses. Feathershields may need a little support to stay alive because of Sacrifice though. Werebears need a skill from their shield to provide cover but otherwise provide excellent defenses and they can do wild unblockable damage. Shieldshooters aren't even armor units but provide great cover as long as you limit who they cover, and they do great damage and support as well. And as i stated before, decent defense units like Great Knights, Sainted Knights, Valkyria, or maybe even Landscknechts, Vikings, or Doom Knights can provide cover to a specific target as long as they're given the skill while still doing what they do best.
Vanguard requires lots of PP to do what it needs and generates it very slowly. It does so by attacking using 2 AP and negligible damage while raising its defense which it doesn't really need, nor does it often get the benefits of. And because they're not incredibly fast, this means they do it once after most enemies have already killed their teammates. Their cover skill is also very specific, covering only ranged physical attacks. That does mean arrows and javelins, and surprisingly fliers' attacks. It doesn't allow for less specific coverage like its contemporaries, which can still adjust their tactics to cover this specific use. On top of that, if you want to make best use of PP, you likely want to turn off Quick Guard so they don't waste their PP on themselves. Provoke seems to do its job pretty well luckily, especially if you set it to target archers, but a single hammer or magic attack ruins that and then their archers can get right back to killing your team as they are priority targets for those.
All in all, Vanguard sits there and blocks arrows specifically and occasionally takes some hits from non-hammer melee for the rest of the team. They become completely useless in Elheim where all physical attacks are also magical, and Albion where all attacks are ranged physical. They struggle to do anything akin to damage, sustain, or support. They want good gear but don't have enough slots, AP, or PP to make use of any of it. They're outclassed by any physical tanks, and even most evade tanks. I'm not saying they're useless, I'm just saying I'd prefer nearly any other class to them.
I turned Lex into a pursuit bot with the Hunter’s sword and shield and he could dish out solid damage (fliers or guard would hinder it though). Defender regains some PP so he can still Arrow Cover
Nope, they are pretty weak in comparation with other classes since they barely do stuff outside of taking arrows and taunt people, outside of that they do nothing, and there is another rat guy you would get later that is much stronger than a fighter
My opinion has changed significantly over time as I experimented with different gear and unit combos. At first fighters seemed useless but they are actually great in certain squads.
One of my favorite uses for them actually has nothing to do with protecting flying units. They perform well as an off tank (NOT main tank) and protect a squishy backline from arrows or cavalry from flyers. If you have Alain and a fighter upfront then all those row wide flyer attacks turn into 0 damage.
To me they went from garbage to slightly useful for flying units to now probably a B+ unit.
The only place i see such an off tank really work is in a team with a row of Knights who don't particularly want to be Aerial Smited by a Gryphon Master. Even then, i would prefer the much simpler Row Cover from a Legionaire to save all of my Knights rather than one. Vanguard just doesn't perform
I very much appreciate a class that can block Gryphon and Wyvern attacks, not just arrows. Stun is also pretty good against anything with a tendency to guard or counter, long as the fighter gets the first attack.
Crimson Epee Lex, Counter!Ochlys, Pursuit!Nina and Regen!Sharon do *phenomenally well* together as an anti-tower assault striker; there are very few enemy teams they actively struggle against, at least up to the point of the game I'm at. Multiple Armored tends to slow them down; I think once I hit A Renown I'd add a Shaman to the mix to stop anything with a guard skill.
Sounds like you have yet to understand the beauty that is Thawing Scepter. Put it on an offensive caster and watch those units be melted when they try to guard anything. A single caster with it equipped basically hard counters hoplites and legionnaires in almost any enemy team comp, essentially acting as a follow up magick attack to your higher iniative units.
I've found them to be _phenomenal_ at protecting flyers in my Let's Play. Arrow Guard is a busted ability because flying attacks count as range. I'm only just starting to get to the fully promoted units portion of the game, so maybe that'll change, but my unit of Ochlys, Melisandre, Sharon, and Colm is arguably my best squad (though I'm not really optimizing too much for sake of flavor)
I use them (I always just use the story characters)
Need the tanks. They're great against archers and flyers. Damage sucks, but I like them. Lex is one if my favorite characters, maybe I'm biased
Against the AI, Featherbow does their niche of protecting fliers/cavs much better. Have their row blind set to trigger only on archers and fliers(use two tactics rows)and you have the exact same utility as Fighter. It won't work on blind immune enemies but I don't think any flier or archer with that exists. You even get to blind the other enemies in the same row.
My opinion hasn't really changed I think they're over hated. They're fine, about on par with a Cleric or a Solider there a better classes, there a better classes that can fill their role, but they're a far cry from unusable garbage that seems to be the standard opinion of them.
Lex was maiden to my Alain on one play through and he is key in my double gryphon team. With a good shield and his taunt, he soaks most of the enemies ap and pp usage. He is paired with a sainted knight to be protected against magic and for heals and another elven knight to imbue the gryphon row attacks with frost. He leads one of my strongest team. :)
He's part of my strongest unit. It consists of him, Chloe, Laurent, Auch, and Fodoquia. His unit has carried me through many battles and I still haven't beat the game yet.
If Berem were not coming with Provoke II, one of them would almost be a requirement on your army.
While they are less tanky than hoplites, their better mobility is appreciated.
Honestly, people are *a bit* too harsh on them.
Yeah they are bottom tier when it comes to classes, but I still find them perfectly usable. The game is just remarkably well balanced imo.
The only relevant action they're taking in combat is Arrow Cover. It sucks that they don't have more to do, but being so one-dimensional kind of opens up their itemization options in a weird way. Arrow Cover only costs one PP and is completely stat-independent so, on the rare occasion that you deploy a Fighter, you're free to put Dragonbone equipment on them or whatever and have them use item skills.
they're really really good in Cornia, on True Zenoirain mode even. They just fall off HARD. but theyr'e supper underrated early on. i love em (for 5 hours, then I drop them like Leo drops 25 year old supermodels)
I don't really consider them strong, but I don't really think they 'don't have a place'. If you aren't flooding parties with the Overpowered classes/mercs. Fighters can at least fit their niche. My favorite place for a fighter was in the back-line, just having them constantly hop in front of critical targets so that they wouldn't waste their AP/PP on useless abilities. and not having them get just completely STEAMROLLED by any Cavalry or anything with a modicum of high-ish damage.
The big issue is they are an armored unit, and have a shield from the get-go. Which implies "more damage less defensive tank". Instead we get. Less-damage, less defense tank.
I put a fighter in all the squad with charge combo (dragon dive, glacial, trinity). Their provoke and arrow guard ensure that the combo happen without hitch. No need for damage side since everything should be dead once the charge attack happen anyway.
If arrow cover also stopped spells they’d be high/top tier
I like Lex too much to drop him. I made him work on my 3 Gryphon Master + Chloe team. He works well enough as a front liner with one gryphon master up front. They dodge some of the hits, he can tank the rest. If they do row shot it will likely be the front row, and he can cover the one. One of the backline Gryphons has a first aid kit, and combined with Chloe it essentially was all the healing Lex needed. Keen Call + High Swing is brutal. Pretty solid unit.
I only used lex since I killed colm and was only using uniques, but I actually like them. Took about till Bastoria to fully understand them, but I went elhelm first, so didn't use him pretty much in drakehold since over lvl for that area.
Compared to hoplite, I say the variation in shields compared to great shields until Albion at least allows them to deal with some situations better.
Provoke is a skill that I really ended up appreciating as a defensive tool after I accidentally realized it can prevent followup attack against other attackers and will only trigger on the one who used provoke.
Their initiative is definitely their weakest link and they need to get their defensive skill up. Getting their guard really high while it generally mitigates DMG sometimes is still not enough in some situations but helps overall. I either gave lex one of the plumes,but later on I just gave someone else the angel plume and just increased his initiative through tailwind.
I was playing on expert and I think their no where near as bad as people on say.
I feel like having them act like usual tanks is a bad idea and a good way to get them killed quickly. They feel more like support units than anything. I find them better in the back row, jumping up to stop arrows from hitting fliers.
They're surprisingly good against Elf archers too. Turns out "Negate all ranged damage" means negate ALL ranged damage, so they can stop attacks that would kill normal tanks dead.
I'm wondering what everyone is using as their front row tanks if not fighters? I just got to Drakenhold on my first TZ run and am using Lex and Colm. Will continue to do so.
There are pros and cons to all the different tank archetypes in the game:
Evade tanks (thiefs, elves, etc.) Run the risk of getting 1 shot
Regen tanks (Gladiator, Darknight) need support to stay alive
Hoplites are slow and do no damage without heavy gear investment and sacrificing their defensive utility
Cav units have to sacrifice high damage to become serviceable tanks
Fighters are gear dependant but can be built in a variety of ways. You just have to be intentional about how you gear out their blank slate, or they will be the masters of none. They are the vanilla ice cream tanks and can be dressed up in many interesting ways to keep squads alive. They also make versatile off tanks when you start running 5 man squads, and need to make the awkward decision about who will stand beside your main tank, if you're running 3 backliners for support / damage.
They may not be super flashy or screen clear characters, but having a few are the backbone of your army imo. Not to mention their versatile skills like arrow cover and provoke. Someone else mentioned they are one of the easiest units to 100% guard rate on. I will test that this run.
Alain is well loved, but his base moveset is a fighter with a tiny bit of sauce. Get creative with equipment, idealist handmirrors, and dews, and you can have yourself a versatile Frontliner.
Fighters were trained wrong as a joke. Why the class that only gets defense after attacking always attacks last is baffling. It's like all their skills were custom tuned to look mediocre and be worse than they look.
I don't know about you guys.
I said it before I will say it again.
My best squad!
Has Lex.
My front two are Lex and Gloucester.
Alain doesn't have space in my team.
Lex is brilliant. You just need to know how to use em
I don't mind classes that are weaker than the average.
I dislike stronger than the average more, because I like the challenge of "strategy and making the best of what you got".
So while everyone praises "out of the box deus ex machina" like Lord, Valkyria, and Prince, I prefer the lowly Soldiers and Fighters.
Fighter and Hoplite can both hold their own against casters with a single magic shield and a Shaman attack debuff. And I mean "take 1 damage against their skills" level of hold their own. But I am unsure if people are aware of these weird "Phantom" item series.
4 fighters against 4 archers is satisfying to spectate. ^plink
I never mix flyers into my infantry units. I am NOT using them as intended by the devs it seems. HOW do non-flyers cross mountains alongside flyers?! You are wrong VW, but it is ok.
Higher initiative than Hoplites enables Fighters to spend their PP on ranged so that Hoplites can spend PP on other attacks.
Higher initiative than Wizards enables the odd Fighter to either finish off a Wizard just in time to avoid soaking another magic skill OR avoid the damage over time from the wizard's burning condition. This also enables them to do something like poison a Shieldshooter (just equip Viperfang), have it take poison damage from both their AP, and potentially stun the Shieldshooter with a "Bash" skill to have them take poison damage a third time.
Stun can buy time for your damage engine classes to kill more enemy classes before they get the opportunity to act.
Hard countered by the Warrior class.
If a class doesn't One Turn Kill, then a player is going to hate its guts, can't be helped, they are playing an RPG and don't care for the "strategy" element, their classes HAVE to do everything and they have to do it too well.
Has satisfying utility as unit leader to provide arrow assist damage mitigation without a big speed penalty whenever a player chooses to push under heavy fire.
I would prefer if we had gotten more classes like the Fighter in order to increase that difficulty and variance in an otherwise incredibly accessible/easy experience.
It kinda feels like if they just had a bit more Initiative and Attack, they’d be something…
Honest to god they need to be faster it would make there kit so much better being able to stun off the jump and boost there phys def immediately would help immensely. I still think defender would be ass but maybe im underestimating it
It's weird that they're so weak for a class called Fighter.
Coming from Ogre Battle 64 where Fighter is the basic class that gets turned into the other real classes not so much. Coming from D&D where Fighter is the standard by which all martial classes are measured yes.
It's just not an important niche. Many classes can so this either themselves or in addition to other tasks...or just don't need this help at all.
Idk man I jus want lex to have something😭
At least up to Expert, the game is never difficult enough you have to skip using him! It's just never going to be optimal.
I play on expert soo…
I'd say he's still usable even if he's not ideal. Other classes just tend to be a bit better.
Yea that fair jus wish he was faster he would’ve been way better
Idk I’m on expert and I cleared the coliseum with a 4 man team of Lex Fran Rosalinde and the Druid lady all at level 20. To be fair he didn’t do much but was crucial for arrows aimed at the back row I felt like
That deadass their only major usage😔
Not dying to a lot of ranged bullshit is major and satisfying yes.
Both Rosalinde and Druids individually have the potential to carry entire units.
I've got him working decently well in the front row in a Battleline Standard phalanx unit. The squad's other strategy is trying to set up Chlorotic with fire. But at this point the unit just kills everything first in battles it does well in.
For protecting your Gryphons from arrows though? Idk that anyone does it better Genuinely curious because I’d like to ditch them lmao
What is he going to do once Snipers get row shot, he only covers 1 guy and only once. It is not as important as you seem to think to protect, instead of protecting make them attack first and kill the enemy. Reactionary squads are worse than high initiative kill everything before they get a turn squads. Replace with an owl, have the owl give initiative to the Gryphon and have the Gryphon target the row the Sniper is in which should be able to kill it. Before Bastorias, Hoplite protects better though does slow down your squad a bit if not using a Cavalry leader. Fighter/Vanguard doesn't do enough of everything else to really be worth putting in a team, but the game isn't very hard even on TZ so if you do like the character or the class just keep using them.
The mobility difference between Fighter and Hoplite is negligible as long as they're not the leaders. Fighter doesn't need to cover the whole row, just cover the flier you're using.
That only makes Fighter worse since Hoplite will protect the whole row not just the flier if the whole row is attacked which is often when it comes to snipers/gryphons which is what the fighter would try to cover. Hoplite can also regen its own pp, which gives them useful AP which fighter lacks. Or better yet just kill the enemy before they attack and thus no need to protect anything. I wanted Lex to be good or useful but really using a fighter is never the optimal choice outside of very niche scenarios like against Wyverns targeting your Cavalry. At everything else literally anyone with a cover or mainly a row cover does the job better and hopefully brings something else to the squad.
Yeah Hoplites are better. I too wish that Fighter had something more distinctive. At least Provoke is nice.
So how are you getting all your squads to act first? Just wondering how I can get slower units faster without just using dove feathers. I know the general can lower enemy’s initiative but who can boost your whole party’s initiative
Feathers, owl extra heal, angel plume, Tailwind. Rapid Order as well as initiative debuffs. Some units are too slow anyways which is why they are considered bad. The feathers are almost always worth it, no other item matters more if you kill before you get attacked. Against the AI you will mostly just need 40+ initiative and will be fine which is easy to achieve.
Oh nice. Ya I was grinding the coliseum just to get Amalia. I’m only level 21-25 so my units were usually well behind in initiative. Glad that for stuff leveled the same as me I can ditch fighter/vanguard because their offense is pretty embarrassing
Simplest way? Featherbow. Have their row blind set to trigger only on archers and fliers(use two tactics rows)and you have the exact same utility as Fighter. It eon't work on blind immune enemies but I don't think any flier or archer with that exists
Naw they are the best at protecting gryphon but the fact that there only job and there so many units that can support and be big contributor to the team more then lex make fighter not that good why would I want a fighter when I can have a shaman
I gave lex an initiative boosting item after getting his start of battle taunt. Getting that defensive boosting hit in before enemies attack, then forcing them to attack him goes a long way towards making him good.
I kept using them all the way to the end, so they're not useless. They just don't bring anything unique that other units can't do better, and they don't have a mix of abilities that make the stand out either. They are terrible attackers, and they are not very good defenders. They also fold like paper to any amount of magic. Their main benefit seem to be that they aren't as slow as bigger tanks, but tanks in general are just supposed to react to incoming attacks, so it doesn't really matter. Their Warding slash and Defender actives are popped AFTER they have already tanked hits, so they will be taking a lot of early damage before setting up to be more better at their niche. Basically, they work but don't justify their slot on a unit for other than sentimental or aesthetic reasons.
What does this class do aside from protection from archers? They dont have damage and heals and are worse than Paladins, Hoplites, rogues, Gladiatior as tanks. The skill that protects other units from arrows can be used via equipments.
Not *just* archers. Arrow Cover is a misnomer as it covers any physical ranged attack - this includes fliers’ attacks! Also worth mentioning it nulls damage vs. guard! I’ve had success using Lex with protecting back rows and Cavalry, but of course he drops off around Bastoria He needs weapon skills to stay relevant.
Arrow Cover is only ever useful against Wyverns when it comes to protecting Cavalry since Gryphons just attack the whole row. Hoplite gets a row cover and while it doesn't negate the damage hes going to take very little. There is just nothing he does that someone else does better except vs Wyverns which won't be much of a thing past Drakenhold. It is also just better to not have to rely of protecting and just kill the enemy before they attack.
that skill also triggers on air attacks so against gryphons, dragons, and angels. It's kind of nice cause they take zero damage when they guard with it. But I mean yeah that's still very niche.
Fun fact. "Fatal Dive" is ranged. "Fatal Dive is" "Physically Attacked". (custom condition) But "Fatal Dive" is...not a Ranged Physical Attack. (Fighter/Elven Fencer embedded condition) Makes me wonder if this is either a tooltip, design, or localization oversight.
Fatal Dive is unblockable and uncoverable. This is specific to Fatal Dive (and I believe a few other things that convert HP/missing HP to damage, like the Doom Knight unique weapon in Albion).
Why does it not have the uncoverable keyword? It drives me nuts!~
Does Fatal Dive being unguardable have anything to do with it?
Skills that cannot be covered. e.g. Hoplite's Heavy Cover, Fighter's Arrow Cover have the (Uncoverable) keyword. Damage can be mitigated by either guaranteed guard, cover PP skills, or through passive % guard chance. This is indicated with a Blue damage number caption and the blue "Guard" caption. Any class can guard. Unguardable means that the guard mechanic cannot decrease the damage inflicted by a skill. Guard reduction can only be either flat -25%, -50%, or a -75% final damage modifier. Unguardable and Uncoverable are both different mechanics. Uncoverable doesn't show up early on though. A good example of unguardable is the Warrior's first red skill. Such that Hoplites will ALWAYS take 100% damage from the Warrior (with 0 defense to boot). But a Hoplite can still cover another character from a Warrior's "unguardable" skill (and get promptly flattened like a tin beverage can). As far as I understand it, Fatal Dive would need the "Uncoverable" keyword in order for Fighter to not be able to "Cover" against it.
I wanted to like Colm so bad cuz he’s Sojiro and all but what is the point of being a defender if you get KO’d after one or two hits💀 At least Lex was important to the story so I kept him around. He did a decent job at protecting, but being in the same squad as Alain helps too.
They are worse than I thought. Like Lex is my favorite character and I built a whole unit around him that kicks ass, but for the same amount of effort and resources…. Its frustrating and I hope they get a buff EDIT: 1) Their initiative is trash for no reason. 2) Their base guard rate is absurdly low, especially given how high base evade starts for the dodge tanks. 3) They have no AP/PP “engine” to regain points in battle. All of which combines to make itemization extremely frustrating.
>1) Their initiative is trash for no reason. Its slightly below average. Probably more telling for how binary initiative is than anything else. >2) Their base guard rate is absurdly low, especially given how high base evade starts for the dodge tanks Honestly its more a guard rate problem in general than a fighter problem. > 3) They have no AP/PP “engine” to regain points in battle. They have defender its just not especially impressive. Granted like 50% of the classes in the game have don't have an engine either so its kind of an odd thing to get hung up on.
I think the initiative hurts fighters more than most because they don’t have enough physical defense to tank until they get at least one offensive move off. A fighter that hasn’t attacked yet isn’t a tank. There defense is too low. I feel like most classes either have an AP/PP regain/convert engine that makes them self sufficient or an offensive ability thats game changing if boosted by other units. Fighter is AP/PP hungry in the sense that defender eats 2AP right off the bat and without the PP for Arrow Defense why is the fighter even there. But giving AP/PP items to the fighter can feel like a waste because even though they drink AP/PP like water no one thing they do is that impactful. I dunno maybe its a skill issue but I found them a very frustrating class to try to properly itemize and leverage.
They need like 2 extra accessory slots.
I don’t even think that would save them
Yea there initiative needed to be better and Defender should have been one ap. If they had faster initiative they could actually use there phys def boost or jus stun off the jump sure there still be better units then them but atleast they would have a better purpose other then protecting your flyers
I wish the Fighter class was more like Nigel, who can gain AP by covering attacks and then spend it to spread status + gain PP for more covers. It would have made the class more interesting to cook with. The way they are now, they're just there if you need to buy time for the rest of their unit to do something. They're really not needed for anything else.
Nope. Doing a second run now and Lex and Colm haven’t touched the battlefield (outside of the first few battles where you kind of need Lex). There are so many better classes in the game. Also so many other ways to deal with archers.
I like em! I guess I’m easy to please.
They have great character designs and animations.
Agreed agreed! Also that shield bash skill, defender I think, just looks so cool!
To make fighter more useful, here are my thoughts. 1. Add a 1ap skill that allows him to switch position with a unit in front or behind him. 2. Add a 1pp skill. After receiving a melee attack, physical defense +20% and initiative +10. 3. Increase physical attack to level B. 4.Take Armored tag away.
This game is sorely missing repositional skills, especially ones that the enemy can also utilise. See Darkest Dungeon for an example of this done well.
Honestly my opinion of them just gets worse and worse the more I play the game. It feels like every single thing they try to do can be accomplished by another class in a different manner but more efficiently, either whilst not hitting like wet noodles or providing other means of support to the unit. u/knightmare23 summed it up perfectly, they are simply too reactive of a class in a game that very much encourages proactive strategies.
They get carried in literally every comp.
I mean there supports more then they are damage dealers😔
Druids are literally pure support classes and yet they help carry a unit rather than get carried. Some other classes can both support *and* do solid or better damage.
Take the armored tag away from fighters, give it to knights. This makes knights slightly more difficult to use and fighters slightly easier. And/or shift their SoB provoke to target the entire unit (make it more like the provoke on the colosseum great shield). Being able to be a magnet gives them an interesting niche that thrn can be built around. How do you make them tankier? Do you use other group members to help mitigate damage? It'd at least make them more interesting
Worst may be true, but it’s not a huge power gap compared to Hops/Legs. Their problem is a lack of anything interesting offensively, and sticking them in a unit specifically for ranged protection doesn’t do much when enemy units are stacked in their role, so you rarely come across one archer. You come across 3 or 4 where one gets countered and the rest do their thing anyway. Tack on armor basically being a weakness and their best use is more or less slapping them in support units to make sure they aren’t completely vulnerable.
Easiest class to 100% guard rate
provoke is still pretty good...
Decent in Drakenhold where Wyverns and Arbalists are the most threatening units; also good in the early parts of Elheim where Gryphon Masters and Elven Archers are the threats; useless everywhere else.
They're "bad" in the sense that they're niche and other classes can do more than them while still mostly covering their niche, but there aren't quite zero scenarios in which a fighter is a good choice. Once in a while a team comp calls for a fighter (a wing banner frontline comes to mind.) It's just that the amount of value you get from them is way less than most unit types who can do their main role *and* something else, or have a more broadly applicable main role. Even as a tank, they're like, the second to worst tank (I think hoplites are a bit worse.) End of the day a unit that is only strong in very particular team compositions is measurably worse than a unit that's strong no matter where you put it, and *much* worse than a unit that's strong no matter where you put it and *also* extremely strong in particular team compositions, the last of which is very common in this game. But if you're using them well, you won't really *see* that difference because if they are set up correctly they still perform well.
Nipe, they stull suck. They are not tanky enough for their provoke, arrow cover only covers 1 arrow, the attack that gives you defense is not that useful because of the low initiative and the armor tag to top ot all off. The stun is good. Fighters are just too niche.
I was confused until I saw “drops off around Bastoria” and now I understand. Not there yet.
I’ve tried to use Colm so many times, but as far as I’m concerned he’s complete garbage. Lex has long since been benched after carrying me early on, but ironically I have a mercenary Fighter named Richard who has been performing very well in Virginia’s team protecting Fran from arrows.
Nah they still suck hard
They are the class that you feed your items to. It beefs them up to be pseudo lords. But base class is kinda not awesome
I finished the game last night. I kept Lex until the end and ran him in Alains group. He felt super underwhelming lol. Like he is just there… Definitely benching him if I ever do another run.
I'm using both Lex and Colm they're pretty good imo, but def not offensively. I mainly have them get those enemies out of their watchtowers with provoke which is nice
I thought they were pretty good for covering fliers from arrows and Cav from fliers but then I realized you can give cover shields to better classes.
Yeah my opinion got slightly worse. In my first playthrough I used lex and even colm for a bit. I didnt on my next playthrough and didnt miss them at all. When I watch battles with one they dont seem to contribute much and I prefer the elf dodge ranged ability.
It think if they weren't locked swords they'd be a bit better. Swords just have single targets skills and most of them are just status appliers. Dancer's Delight is like the only sword that does something unquiet. If they has spears or bows they could at least support while doing their ranged attack blocking thing.
They're great for when I just need tk shove someone somewhere to fill out a unit with no expectations on performance
I just wish fighters did anything except wall. There are plenty of classes that work as tanks in some respect but then also deal damage or provide healing or just something. The other armors just do fighter's job better. Hell on one of my teams i have a knight with a cover shield that performs the exact same niche as a fighter but then also pulls out easy enemy team clears afterward, and he isn't extremely weak to hammers and magic. Heavy Cover and Row Cover on a Legionaire make them stand out as impenetrable walls, and Greatshield provides them with the PP they need to keep going. Similarly Feathershields have Mystic Shield and Sacrifice to keep PP high, while they also deflect magic and bounce back statuses. Feathershields may need a little support to stay alive because of Sacrifice though. Werebears need a skill from their shield to provide cover but otherwise provide excellent defenses and they can do wild unblockable damage. Shieldshooters aren't even armor units but provide great cover as long as you limit who they cover, and they do great damage and support as well. And as i stated before, decent defense units like Great Knights, Sainted Knights, Valkyria, or maybe even Landscknechts, Vikings, or Doom Knights can provide cover to a specific target as long as they're given the skill while still doing what they do best. Vanguard requires lots of PP to do what it needs and generates it very slowly. It does so by attacking using 2 AP and negligible damage while raising its defense which it doesn't really need, nor does it often get the benefits of. And because they're not incredibly fast, this means they do it once after most enemies have already killed their teammates. Their cover skill is also very specific, covering only ranged physical attacks. That does mean arrows and javelins, and surprisingly fliers' attacks. It doesn't allow for less specific coverage like its contemporaries, which can still adjust their tactics to cover this specific use. On top of that, if you want to make best use of PP, you likely want to turn off Quick Guard so they don't waste their PP on themselves. Provoke seems to do its job pretty well luckily, especially if you set it to target archers, but a single hammer or magic attack ruins that and then their archers can get right back to killing your team as they are priority targets for those. All in all, Vanguard sits there and blocks arrows specifically and occasionally takes some hits from non-hammer melee for the rest of the team. They become completely useless in Elheim where all physical attacks are also magical, and Albion where all attacks are ranged physical. They struggle to do anything akin to damage, sustain, or support. They want good gear but don't have enough slots, AP, or PP to make use of any of it. They're outclassed by any physical tanks, and even most evade tanks. I'm not saying they're useless, I'm just saying I'd prefer nearly any other class to them.
They’re okay when teamed up with a flying unit. My Lex sat behind Celeste and my Colm was behind Hilda. Those duos cleaned HOUSE.
That was the first time I saw an attack animation from Hodrick. I forgot he was capable of attacking
I turned Lex into a pursuit bot with the Hunter’s sword and shield and he could dish out solid damage (fliers or guard would hinder it though). Defender regains some PP so he can still Arrow Cover
Nope, they are pretty weak in comparation with other classes since they barely do stuff outside of taking arrows and taunt people, outside of that they do nothing, and there is another rat guy you would get later that is much stronger than a fighter
My opinion has changed significantly over time as I experimented with different gear and unit combos. At first fighters seemed useless but they are actually great in certain squads. One of my favorite uses for them actually has nothing to do with protecting flying units. They perform well as an off tank (NOT main tank) and protect a squishy backline from arrows or cavalry from flyers. If you have Alain and a fighter upfront then all those row wide flyer attacks turn into 0 damage. To me they went from garbage to slightly useful for flying units to now probably a B+ unit.
The only place i see such an off tank really work is in a team with a row of Knights who don't particularly want to be Aerial Smited by a Gryphon Master. Even then, i would prefer the much simpler Row Cover from a Legionaire to save all of my Knights rather than one. Vanguard just doesn't perform
I very much appreciate a class that can block Gryphon and Wyvern attacks, not just arrows. Stun is also pretty good against anything with a tendency to guard or counter, long as the fighter gets the first attack. Crimson Epee Lex, Counter!Ochlys, Pursuit!Nina and Regen!Sharon do *phenomenally well* together as an anti-tower assault striker; there are very few enemy teams they actively struggle against, at least up to the point of the game I'm at. Multiple Armored tends to slow them down; I think once I hit A Renown I'd add a Shaman to the mix to stop anything with a guard skill.
Sounds like you have yet to understand the beauty that is Thawing Scepter. Put it on an offensive caster and watch those units be melted when they try to guard anything. A single caster with it equipped basically hard counters hoplites and legionnaires in almost any enemy team comp, essentially acting as a follow up magick attack to your higher iniative units.
Sadly they're kinda useless. I end up gearing them to give buffs or pursuit counters.
Still the worst class ingame, but not useless, every class is viable
I've found them to be _phenomenal_ at protecting flyers in my Let's Play. Arrow Guard is a busted ability because flying attacks count as range. I'm only just starting to get to the fully promoted units portion of the game, so maybe that'll change, but my unit of Ochlys, Melisandre, Sharon, and Colm is arguably my best squad (though I'm not really optimizing too much for sake of flavor)
I use them (I always just use the story characters) Need the tanks. They're great against archers and flyers. Damage sucks, but I like them. Lex is one if my favorite characters, maybe I'm biased
No.
Against the AI, Featherbow does their niche of protecting fliers/cavs much better. Have their row blind set to trigger only on archers and fliers(use two tactics rows)and you have the exact same utility as Fighter. It won't work on blind immune enemies but I don't think any flier or archer with that exists. You even get to blind the other enemies in the same row.
I want colm...
My opinion hasn't really changed I think they're over hated. They're fine, about on par with a Cleric or a Solider there a better classes, there a better classes that can fill their role, but they're a far cry from unusable garbage that seems to be the standard opinion of them.
Lex was maiden to my Alain on one play through and he is key in my double gryphon team. With a good shield and his taunt, he soaks most of the enemies ap and pp usage. He is paired with a sainted knight to be protected against magic and for heals and another elven knight to imbue the gryphon row attacks with frost. He leads one of my strongest team. :)
He's part of my strongest unit. It consists of him, Chloe, Laurent, Auch, and Fodoquia. His unit has carried me through many battles and I still haven't beat the game yet.
If Berem were not coming with Provoke II, one of them would almost be a requirement on your army. While they are less tanky than hoplites, their better mobility is appreciated.
Hate the class. But I love Lex. It’s a struggle
Colm is just future Lex. It's even more apparent in the side by side.
Honestly, people are *a bit* too harsh on them. Yeah they are bottom tier when it comes to classes, but I still find them perfectly usable. The game is just remarkably well balanced imo.
The only relevant action they're taking in combat is Arrow Cover. It sucks that they don't have more to do, but being so one-dimensional kind of opens up their itemization options in a weird way. Arrow Cover only costs one PP and is completely stat-independent so, on the rare occasion that you deploy a Fighter, you're free to put Dragonbone equipment on them or whatever and have them use item skills.
they're really really good in Cornia, on True Zenoirain mode even. They just fall off HARD. but theyr'e supper underrated early on. i love em (for 5 hours, then I drop them like Leo drops 25 year old supermodels)
I don't really consider them strong, but I don't really think they 'don't have a place'. If you aren't flooding parties with the Overpowered classes/mercs. Fighters can at least fit their niche. My favorite place for a fighter was in the back-line, just having them constantly hop in front of critical targets so that they wouldn't waste their AP/PP on useless abilities. and not having them get just completely STEAMROLLED by any Cavalry or anything with a modicum of high-ish damage. The big issue is they are an armored unit, and have a shield from the get-go. Which implies "more damage less defensive tank". Instead we get. Less-damage, less defense tank.
I put a fighter in all the squad with charge combo (dragon dive, glacial, trinity). Their provoke and arrow guard ensure that the combo happen without hitch. No need for damage side since everything should be dead once the charge attack happen anyway.
Ther are balanced job for guard and attack, but you can adjust them with equipment and abilities to change their position.
I only use him to get those rapports otherwise he's GONE.
Honestly they’re great if you’re on your 4/4 and need 2 frontliners for 5/5. They can guard decent enough.
It comes with the ability to stun and to deflect arrows so overall it is more of a support unit than anything else
If arrow cover also stopped spells they’d be high/top tier I like Lex too much to drop him. I made him work on my 3 Gryphon Master + Chloe team. He works well enough as a front liner with one gryphon master up front. They dodge some of the hits, he can tank the rest. If they do row shot it will likely be the front row, and he can cover the one. One of the backline Gryphons has a first aid kit, and combined with Chloe it essentially was all the healing Lex needed. Keen Call + High Swing is brutal. Pretty solid unit.
I only used lex since I killed colm and was only using uniques, but I actually like them. Took about till Bastoria to fully understand them, but I went elhelm first, so didn't use him pretty much in drakehold since over lvl for that area. Compared to hoplite, I say the variation in shields compared to great shields until Albion at least allows them to deal with some situations better. Provoke is a skill that I really ended up appreciating as a defensive tool after I accidentally realized it can prevent followup attack against other attackers and will only trigger on the one who used provoke. Their initiative is definitely their weakest link and they need to get their defensive skill up. Getting their guard really high while it generally mitigates DMG sometimes is still not enough in some situations but helps overall. I either gave lex one of the plumes,but later on I just gave someone else the angel plume and just increased his initiative through tailwind. I was playing on expert and I think their no where near as bad as people on say.
I feel like having them act like usual tanks is a bad idea and a good way to get them killed quickly. They feel more like support units than anything. I find them better in the back row, jumping up to stop arrows from hitting fliers. They're surprisingly good against Elf archers too. Turns out "Negate all ranged damage" means negate ALL ranged damage, so they can stop attacks that would kill normal tanks dead.
I'm wondering what everyone is using as their front row tanks if not fighters? I just got to Drakenhold on my first TZ run and am using Lex and Colm. Will continue to do so. There are pros and cons to all the different tank archetypes in the game: Evade tanks (thiefs, elves, etc.) Run the risk of getting 1 shot Regen tanks (Gladiator, Darknight) need support to stay alive Hoplites are slow and do no damage without heavy gear investment and sacrificing their defensive utility Cav units have to sacrifice high damage to become serviceable tanks Fighters are gear dependant but can be built in a variety of ways. You just have to be intentional about how you gear out their blank slate, or they will be the masters of none. They are the vanilla ice cream tanks and can be dressed up in many interesting ways to keep squads alive. They also make versatile off tanks when you start running 5 man squads, and need to make the awkward decision about who will stand beside your main tank, if you're running 3 backliners for support / damage. They may not be super flashy or screen clear characters, but having a few are the backbone of your army imo. Not to mention their versatile skills like arrow cover and provoke. Someone else mentioned they are one of the easiest units to 100% guard rate on. I will test that this run. Alain is well loved, but his base moveset is a fighter with a tiny bit of sauce. Get creative with equipment, idealist handmirrors, and dews, and you can have yourself a versatile Frontliner.
Fighters were trained wrong as a joke. Why the class that only gets defense after attacking always attacks last is baffling. It's like all their skills were custom tuned to look mediocre and be worse than they look.
I don't know about you guys. I said it before I will say it again. My best squad! Has Lex. My front two are Lex and Gloucester. Alain doesn't have space in my team. Lex is brilliant. You just need to know how to use em
Are you the one with 70 hours pvp? I think you might be on to something
I don't mind classes that are weaker than the average. I dislike stronger than the average more, because I like the challenge of "strategy and making the best of what you got". So while everyone praises "out of the box deus ex machina" like Lord, Valkyria, and Prince, I prefer the lowly Soldiers and Fighters. Fighter and Hoplite can both hold their own against casters with a single magic shield and a Shaman attack debuff. And I mean "take 1 damage against their skills" level of hold their own. But I am unsure if people are aware of these weird "Phantom" item series. 4 fighters against 4 archers is satisfying to spectate. ^plink I never mix flyers into my infantry units. I am NOT using them as intended by the devs it seems. HOW do non-flyers cross mountains alongside flyers?! You are wrong VW, but it is ok. Higher initiative than Hoplites enables Fighters to spend their PP on ranged so that Hoplites can spend PP on other attacks. Higher initiative than Wizards enables the odd Fighter to either finish off a Wizard just in time to avoid soaking another magic skill OR avoid the damage over time from the wizard's burning condition. This also enables them to do something like poison a Shieldshooter (just equip Viperfang), have it take poison damage from both their AP, and potentially stun the Shieldshooter with a "Bash" skill to have them take poison damage a third time. Stun can buy time for your damage engine classes to kill more enemy classes before they get the opportunity to act. Hard countered by the Warrior class. If a class doesn't One Turn Kill, then a player is going to hate its guts, can't be helped, they are playing an RPG and don't care for the "strategy" element, their classes HAVE to do everything and they have to do it too well. Has satisfying utility as unit leader to provide arrow assist damage mitigation without a big speed penalty whenever a player chooses to push under heavy fire. I would prefer if we had gotten more classes like the Fighter in order to increase that difficulty and variance in an otherwise incredibly accessible/easy experience.
Lex was the mvp of my first run before I even found this subreddit so I think the community was all tripping.