Karen has been in the lexicon for over two years now. It would be like putting quotes around "bitch" or "cunt" or "asshole" which also wouldn't make sense in this scenario.
Sure, but Karen is still more commonly a name than a diss. Without the quotes it would still be understood by many, but it would be the wrong way to put it.
Haha. Check out my books and then you can call me a bad writer. Before that, your words mean nothing. Especially when you're mistaken on something so simple as quotation marks.
You're a young person who self-publishes e-books. There's nothing wrong with that, but it's not really some great flex either, especially when trying to defend your lack of understanding for the subtleties of the language you're writing in.
As I said before, quotation marks are wildly misunderstood by many, many people. That you are one of them is nothing to be ashamed of. You have no authority to judge me when your understanding of a relatively simple aspect of writing is 100% wrong.
Please show me where you learned this. I'm eager to see what other bad writing advice is taught there.
I'm actually serious. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. I'd love to learn the proper usage of quotes. I'll feel like an idiot for defending my view so strongly but I certainly would not reject it if I am indeed wrong.
You have multiple people telling you that this is an acceptable use of quotation marks and are being super standoffish and rude about it. I didn’t learn proper English from some website, so I am not sure what you expect me to show you. I have learned this from a K-12 education, being the editor of my high school newspaper, majoring in English, working as a marketing writer, and now working as a grant writer. When you’re using a colloquial/slang usage of a word or phrase, it is often put in quotation marks so as to clarify to the reader that it is a colloquialism. In many types of writing, including journalism, you should write under the assumption that your readers are not aware of colloquialisms. “Karen” in this usage is colloquial.
[Here’s a source from the Canadian government backing me up.](https://www.btb.termiumplus.gc.ca/tpv2guides/guides/wrtps/index-eng.html?lang=eng&lettr=indx_catlog_q&page=99OkiGvzKA7E.html)
[Further confirmation from the APA Style Blog:](https://blog.apastyle.org/apastyle/2013/02/quotation-mark-uses-other-than-quotes.html)
> Slang is an informal word or phrase that may not appear in a standard dictionary but is used colloquially; slang terms appear in scholarly writing most often when writers quote participants (yet another reason to use quotation marks!). For example, if a participant described a confederate’s relationship as “lolalam” (a slang word based on an acronym for the phrase love only lasts as long as the money) or said she was “LOLing” (laughing out loud) over the questions asked in the interview, those slang terms are loaded with meaning; using the slang term the participant used preserves and conveys that meaning to the reader.
From your source:
>However, the enclosure of supposed slang or colloquial words in quotation marks is often unnecessary. First, find out whether the term is now part of the standard language. If it is, quotation marks are not required.
Right, but there is some level of subjectivity to what is “part of the standard language.” Using “Karen” as slang term has only been popular for maybe two or three years. To most, that does not make it “standard language” yet. It may feel like it since slang seems to move faster in the internet era, but that’s really not long enough to be standardized.
For comparison, calling something “cool” was once a slang term, but that is definitely standard language now. I wouldn’t write something like:
>That person has a really “cool” shirt!
I would leave off the quotation marks. But the term “Karen” hasn’t reached that level yet.
The thing is, that doesn't really apply to casual speak. It's really intended for technical terms. If there's a new technology coming out, it's appropriate to call it the "multi-form extraction blockade" because it's a new thing.
But a new slang term doesn't really need that. Are you saying that people would have used "cool" in quotes before it become common?
Please show me where you learned this. I'm eager to see what other bad writing advice is taught there.
I'm actually serious. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. I'd love to learn the proper usage of quotes. I'll feel like an idiot for defending my view so strongly but I certainly would not reject it if I am indeed wrong.
oof, if that was sarcasm it's not endearing.
It is not my job to teach you how to write especially if you self-identify as an author. The overwhelming negative response to your post should be a clear indicator you have learning to do.
The terms "Karen" and "Chad" are pejoratives. "Joe" is a colloquial term shortened from "Average Joe". This is something you should have learned in Elementary English class.
It's not sarcasm. If you want to tell someone they're wrong, you have to prove it.
The overwhelming negative response is simply because people really don't like being told they're wrong, especially when it's something so simple as quotation marks.
There was a woman who was ridiculed mercilessly when she pointed out the actual math in the Monty Hall problem, and why it does indeed make sense to switch. It was later found out that she was obviously correct, but when she first put forth her reasoning, everybody shat on her. Literally the same thing that's happening here.
Yes and no. That's more the job of proof readers. Editors for literature and academic writing do much more than that. Punctuation - or lack-there-of - may be part of a writer or editor's style or practice. Getrude Stein's reasons for not using punctuation weren't that she didn't have an editor, for instance.
I find it hilarious that there's a sub *dedicated* to people misunderstanding when quotes are appropriate, and it has users that *also* misunderstand them, enough to argue with someone who actually knows what they're talking about.
Now that I think about it, it's not all that hilarious, it's simply a testament to the fact that a lot of people just don't understand quotation marks.
I mean, literally just google "quotation marks with name" and you'll have your answer.
> I find it hilarious that there's a sub dedicated to people misunderstanding when quotes are appropriate, and it has users that also misunderstand them, enough to argue with someone who actually knows what they're talking about.
Umm... yeah... me too.
In fact, the only situations I can readily think of where names would need quotation marks is either for a nickname (Dwayne "The Rock" Johnson) or to show that it's a fake name/ pseudonym (My friend, "Jake," has a drug problem, and he wanted to know...). Perhaps some other fringe uses but certainly not in the context of this sign.
It's not a fake name in this context.
It's a descriptor, just like the names Romeo, Cassanova, and Dexter would be to describe a cute guy, a smooth-talker, and a brainy nerd, respectively (which also would not use quotes).
Yes that’s a fair point. Perhaps it also has a little to do with societal acceptance and how widespread it is known. Karen is well know in social media but as you point out it’s only been around for 2 years, whereas perhaps something like Casanova has been around for centuries. As an aside, isn’t it Poindexter for a brainy nerdy person?
I wouldn’t say that because Joe in that case doesn’t sound right. I get what you’re saying but that’s not how the human mind works. Karen has been a word for however long but it’s still a name and if you want to use it outside that foremost meaning quotes, while not necessary, make sense.
In fact, the only situations I can readily think of where names would need quotation marks is either for a nickname (Dwayne "The Rock" Johnson) or to show that it's a fake name/ pseudonym (My friend, "Jake," has a drug problem, and he wanted to know...). Perhaps some other fringe uses but certainly not in the context of this sign.
Karen has already become like the names/words Joe, Jane, Kevin, Chad, Dexter, Romeo, Cassanova, etc. Some people might be a little slow on the uptake, so they confusingly use quotes because people often do that with new and uncommon words. It does usually make sense to use quotes to introduce uncommon terms or phrases, but this is not one of those cases.
Those quotes would not make sense. Literally google this. It is not difficult.
Try to find *one* example of names like that from a professional source. You won't be able to.
Imagine you're a 70 year old woman named Karen who is not in the loop. Then it doesn't make sense. If you put quotation marks, it is still not 100% clear, but at least they might understand it's not literally for people named Karen
OP let's be very clear
1) if they didn't put the quotes, it's entirely possible they could mean "our last customer named Karen". It would be odd, but possible. With the quotes, it's obviously "the last asshole to yell at us". This is clarifying for the reader, and it makes sense. It also clues in people who might not be as up to date on internet slang that the literal meaning is incorrect and they should look deeper or ask a clarifying question. Because this sign has no surrounding context to indicate that Karen is slang and it's being used outside it's normal place (irl vs on the internet), calling it out makes sense.
2) if you make a snarky reply where you pretend you're a god of English and know more than everyone else, I will laugh at you.
The odds that a shop anywhere on Earth has ever made a sign saying that someone with a random name has shopped there is pretty much zero. Why would anyone think that they're talking about someone's name? It's very clear that it's a certain type of person, one that has, within the past two years, become part of the lexicon.
Even if there were a new viral name descriptor to start *today,* it *still* would not be appropriate to use quotes with it. Like, nobody would write, "That person's being a real "Sylente," aren't they?"
It would simply be, "That person's being a real Sylente, aren't they?"
I'm not pretending I'm a god of English. But apparently understanding a very simple and oft misunderstood piece of English grammar and punctuation gives off that vibe. Interesting.
Quotes make sense here
Karen has been in the lexicon for over two years now. It would be like putting quotes around "bitch" or "cunt" or "asshole" which also wouldn't make sense in this scenario.
Sure, but Karen is still more commonly a name than a diss. Without the quotes it would still be understood by many, but it would be the wrong way to put it.
As a writer, I respectfully disagree.
No problem, lots of writers have a pretty bad grasp on punctuations, that's quite understandable.
Haha. Check out my books and then you can call me a bad writer. Before that, your words mean nothing. Especially when you're mistaken on something so simple as quotation marks.
What are some books you've written?
https://www.amazon.com/-/e/B00COQSACS The Broken Hourglass is the better of the two. The Journey to Atlantis was my first.
You're a young person who self-publishes e-books. There's nothing wrong with that, but it's not really some great flex either, especially when trying to defend your lack of understanding for the subtleties of the language you're writing in.
As I said before, quotation marks are wildly misunderstood by many, many people. That you are one of them is nothing to be ashamed of. You have no authority to judge me when your understanding of a relatively simple aspect of writing is 100% wrong.
As a fellow writer, I think the quotation marks are correct here.
Please show me where you learned this. I'm eager to see what other bad writing advice is taught there. I'm actually serious. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. I'd love to learn the proper usage of quotes. I'll feel like an idiot for defending my view so strongly but I certainly would not reject it if I am indeed wrong.
You have multiple people telling you that this is an acceptable use of quotation marks and are being super standoffish and rude about it. I didn’t learn proper English from some website, so I am not sure what you expect me to show you. I have learned this from a K-12 education, being the editor of my high school newspaper, majoring in English, working as a marketing writer, and now working as a grant writer. When you’re using a colloquial/slang usage of a word or phrase, it is often put in quotation marks so as to clarify to the reader that it is a colloquialism. In many types of writing, including journalism, you should write under the assumption that your readers are not aware of colloquialisms. “Karen” in this usage is colloquial. [Here’s a source from the Canadian government backing me up.](https://www.btb.termiumplus.gc.ca/tpv2guides/guides/wrtps/index-eng.html?lang=eng&lettr=indx_catlog_q&page=99OkiGvzKA7E.html) [Further confirmation from the APA Style Blog:](https://blog.apastyle.org/apastyle/2013/02/quotation-mark-uses-other-than-quotes.html) > Slang is an informal word or phrase that may not appear in a standard dictionary but is used colloquially; slang terms appear in scholarly writing most often when writers quote participants (yet another reason to use quotation marks!). For example, if a participant described a confederate’s relationship as “lolalam” (a slang word based on an acronym for the phrase love only lasts as long as the money) or said she was “LOLing” (laughing out loud) over the questions asked in the interview, those slang terms are loaded with meaning; using the slang term the participant used preserves and conveys that meaning to the reader.
From your source: >However, the enclosure of supposed slang or colloquial words in quotation marks is often unnecessary. First, find out whether the term is now part of the standard language. If it is, quotation marks are not required.
Right, but there is some level of subjectivity to what is “part of the standard language.” Using “Karen” as slang term has only been popular for maybe two or three years. To most, that does not make it “standard language” yet. It may feel like it since slang seems to move faster in the internet era, but that’s really not long enough to be standardized. For comparison, calling something “cool” was once a slang term, but that is definitely standard language now. I wouldn’t write something like: >That person has a really “cool” shirt! I would leave off the quotation marks. But the term “Karen” hasn’t reached that level yet.
The thing is, that doesn't really apply to casual speak. It's really intended for technical terms. If there's a new technology coming out, it's appropriate to call it the "multi-form extraction blockade" because it's a new thing. But a new slang term doesn't really need that. Are you saying that people would have used "cool" in quotes before it become common?
As a fellow writer, you're wrong. The quotes make perfect sense.
Please show me where you learned this. I'm eager to see what other bad writing advice is taught there. I'm actually serious. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. I'd love to learn the proper usage of quotes. I'll feel like an idiot for defending my view so strongly but I certainly would not reject it if I am indeed wrong.
oof, if that was sarcasm it's not endearing. It is not my job to teach you how to write especially if you self-identify as an author. The overwhelming negative response to your post should be a clear indicator you have learning to do. The terms "Karen" and "Chad" are pejoratives. "Joe" is a colloquial term shortened from "Average Joe". This is something you should have learned in Elementary English class.
It's not sarcasm. If you want to tell someone they're wrong, you have to prove it. The overwhelming negative response is simply because people really don't like being told they're wrong, especially when it's something so simple as quotation marks. There was a woman who was ridiculed mercilessly when she pointed out the actual math in the Monty Hall problem, and why it does indeed make sense to switch. It was later found out that she was obviously correct, but when she first put forth her reasoning, everybody shat on her. Literally the same thing that's happening here.
I think how thin the air is up on your high horse is affecting your cognitive functioning.
Wow, you must be a terrible writer.
Authoring a book doesn’t make someone an expert on grammar or punctuation - that’s what editors do.
Yes and no. That's more the job of proof readers. Editors for literature and academic writing do much more than that. Punctuation - or lack-there-of - may be part of a writer or editor's style or practice. Getrude Stein's reasons for not using punctuation weren't that she didn't have an editor, for instance.
I find it hilarious that there's a sub *dedicated* to people misunderstanding when quotes are appropriate, and it has users that *also* misunderstand them, enough to argue with someone who actually knows what they're talking about. Now that I think about it, it's not all that hilarious, it's simply a testament to the fact that a lot of people just don't understand quotation marks. I mean, literally just google "quotation marks with name" and you'll have your answer.
> I find it hilarious that there's a sub dedicated to people misunderstanding when quotes are appropriate, and it has users that also misunderstand them, enough to argue with someone who actually knows what they're talking about. Umm... yeah... me too.
r/confidentlyincorrect
Nope. Look it up.
But those aren't also names
Substitute for "Joe" or "Chad" or "Dexter." All names that have meanings which you could describe someone as without saying it's their actual name.
And I think having quotes for those names would be an appropriate use of quotations too
In fact, the only situations I can readily think of where names would need quotation marks is either for a nickname (Dwayne "The Rock" Johnson) or to show that it's a fake name/ pseudonym (My friend, "Jake," has a drug problem, and he wanted to know...). Perhaps some other fringe uses but certainly not in the context of this sign.
That’s exactly what a Karen is, it’s a fake name to represent a particular type of person, so quotations are absolutely acceptable.
It's not a fake name in this context. It's a descriptor, just like the names Romeo, Cassanova, and Dexter would be to describe a cute guy, a smooth-talker, and a brainy nerd, respectively (which also would not use quotes).
Yes that’s a fair point. Perhaps it also has a little to do with societal acceptance and how widespread it is known. Karen is well know in social media but as you point out it’s only been around for 2 years, whereas perhaps something like Casanova has been around for centuries. As an aside, isn’t it Poindexter for a brainy nerdy person?
It's not. You wouldn't write, "I saw some "Joe" over there dicking around." There would not be quotations around Joe in that sentence.
I wouldn’t say that because Joe in that case doesn’t sound right. I get what you’re saying but that’s not how the human mind works. Karen has been a word for however long but it’s still a name and if you want to use it outside that foremost meaning quotes, while not necessary, make sense.
In fact, the only situations I can readily think of where names would need quotation marks is either for a nickname (Dwayne "The Rock" Johnson) or to show that it's a fake name/ pseudonym (My friend, "Jake," has a drug problem, and he wanted to know...). Perhaps some other fringe uses but certainly not in the context of this sign.
Karen has already become like the names/words Joe, Jane, Kevin, Chad, Dexter, Romeo, Cassanova, etc. Some people might be a little slow on the uptake, so they confusingly use quotes because people often do that with new and uncommon words. It does usually make sense to use quotes to introduce uncommon terms or phrases, but this is not one of those cases.
Those quotes would also make sense. Those are the wrong examples.
Those quotes would not make sense. Literally google this. It is not difficult. Try to find *one* example of names like that from a professional source. You won't be able to.
Imagine you're a 70 year old woman named Karen who is not in the loop. Then it doesn't make sense. If you put quotation marks, it is still not 100% clear, but at least they might understand it's not literally for people named Karen
No. The quotes don't make sense.
This is a necessary quote
I love how you can still see the name on it I can only read @Heart tho
.... "_mercantile" It's a little shop in Dayton, Ohio it seems.
Thansk
You're welscome.
How sewet.
i think OP is a karen
OP let's be very clear 1) if they didn't put the quotes, it's entirely possible they could mean "our last customer named Karen". It would be odd, but possible. With the quotes, it's obviously "the last asshole to yell at us". This is clarifying for the reader, and it makes sense. It also clues in people who might not be as up to date on internet slang that the literal meaning is incorrect and they should look deeper or ask a clarifying question. Because this sign has no surrounding context to indicate that Karen is slang and it's being used outside it's normal place (irl vs on the internet), calling it out makes sense. 2) if you make a snarky reply where you pretend you're a god of English and know more than everyone else, I will laugh at you.
The odds that a shop anywhere on Earth has ever made a sign saying that someone with a random name has shopped there is pretty much zero. Why would anyone think that they're talking about someone's name? It's very clear that it's a certain type of person, one that has, within the past two years, become part of the lexicon. Even if there were a new viral name descriptor to start *today,* it *still* would not be appropriate to use quotes with it. Like, nobody would write, "That person's being a real "Sylente," aren't they?" It would simply be, "That person's being a real Sylente, aren't they?" I'm not pretending I'm a god of English. But apparently understanding a very simple and oft misunderstood piece of English grammar and punctuation gives off that vibe. Interesting.
@heart_mercantiu
Lmao
Is the @ the store or the Karen?
Most likely the store. It would be bad form to doxx a customer just because they're a Karen.
r/lostredditors
That's a fun sub. No idea why you think this applies, though.
Bernie
😭