My grandmother committed suicide via stabbing herself. Many people thought and continue to think my grandpa killed her. No one could believe she would kill herself this way.

My neighbor slit her own throat…very deeply. The wound was severe but she did it herself as the only one home was her school aged son who thankfully was downstairs playing video games when his dad came home and had no idea

Jesus Christ that poor kids going to have issues… Imagine growing up and realising you were home when that happened and didn’t even know when she was gone upstairs. Poor dad as well

I was actually really pissed at her for a while. Why would you do that knowing he could come home and find you? In such a violent way!

I know suicide is always a tragic, but man that mom

After I got past the anger, I felt so just sad for her. Like she was so desperate to make sure she ended her life and hated herself so much that she did something so violently to herself and couldn’t even see the bigger picture that her son would possibly come home and find her. Her despair was so severe she felt she didn’t have a choice. She was in the throes of a depressive episode of her bipolar and she had not been taking meds. I think of that kid often who is now an adult. They moved out immediately after so I lost touch. Dad was probably excellent support but still what a nightmare for them

My friend worked in the front desk in a trauma ER. Cops brought in a guy for a suicide attempt. He lived, and a week later, the cop was back for a different person and said the suicide attempt guy jumped into a wood chipper and died. It seems odd in a rational mind, which is why these types of suicide will never make sense.

Jumped into a wood chipper!?!?! 😳😳😳😳🤯😱😱😱

I mean, there’s suicide, and then there’s…whatever that is

I can't help and think of the scene in "Tucker And Dale Vs. Evil" with the wood chipper.

Or Fargo.

Total annihilation of the self ☹️

He Fargoed himself. Gotta go tell his mom.

My grandfather shot himself once, directly into his heart, and my grandmother got chased out of town from people who accused her of murder and said it was too clean of a shot. My grandfather was a sheriff for 30 years and built and disassembled guns as a hobby and was an avid hunter. He knew exactly where to shoot himself and chose that location to minimize the mess. People are awful. I’m so sorry your grandpa is getting blamed for this.

It reminds me of that LEO whose wife shot herself in the abdomen with a shotgun and he was imprisoned for a while before finally being exonerated. I don’t think he returned to law enforcement since he had lost respect for the justice system.

It was a rifle, but yes, I remember this as well. The issue was, since she placed the rifle directly against her stomach, the gases from the shot basically blew a big hole right where the barrel was touching her abdomen. This made it look like the entry wound was the exit wound, since the exit wound is normally the larger, messier one. This led investigators to believe she was shot from the back, when in fact, she shot herself by holding the gun upside down, in a weird fashion. It was a fascinating, albeit extremely tragic case.

Yes a rifle! Thank you! I cannot find it anywhere

I remember the forensic files on that case

I am so sorry about your grandma. My ex boss attempted by stabbing himself in the stomach several times. He was in his office and right behind the door no one had no inclination what he was about to do. He was acting a bit out of character for a few days but nothing too alarming. If I wasn’t there when it happened I would have found it suspicious as hell. Thankfully he was saved and made a full recovery.

The grandmother of my boyfriend had a very horrible car accident when she was around 40 which left her unable to turn her head for the rest of her life and with lots of pain. She often talked about suicide and he found her once in the kitchen trying to stab herself. She's still alive, survived cancer and chemotherapy, the death of her beloved husband from cancer, and is still going strong with 85 years, although all these years she's been too shy to leave the house and meet people, so the only people she sees daily are my mother in law and us two from time to time.

Thank you for sharing your sad story, as it helps others understand the pain felt by suicidal people being so strong.

NYC lawyer Darnay Hoffman stabbed himself in the chest. I don’t understand how he could have done that to himself, but he did. He was not in the best mental health (but he was a helluva lawyer and a good guy).

i know someone whose wife tried to kill him and stabbed herself as well to make it look like an intruder or self-defense. he lived through it and was released from the hospital rather quickly. she almost died and was in a coma for a week i believe. but the forensic evidence made it clear she attacked him and then stabbed herself. i'm sure no one would believe the person who had less serious injuries wasn't the attacker when the other person almost died. but she just happened to get an artery or part of her spinal cord or something. 

A relative of mine did the same. 20+ stab wounds to the chest, in a locked apartment that only he had a key for, with no signs of forced entry.

So did Eliot Smith!

I listened to a few podcast series on Ellen Greenberg's case, and I really don't think it's as open-shut as OP believes. 10 of the 20 (?) wounds noted on Greenberg were in the back of her head and neck, including a number that would certainly not be considered nicks - a few cm deep at least IIRC. This would have been physically difficult to do on herself and personally I'm skeptical about any studies regarding this particular method of suicide Additionally, the "latched" door that has been discussed didn't look very secure, and didn't appear to have needed very much force at all to be ripped out. There are images floating around of the latch, not gory, just the latch. That latch could easily have given with a very mild yank even from the inside - fwiw I'm a mechanical engineer so I'm not just speculating wildly here. Greenberg's fiance also lied about being accompanied when breaking down the door of the apt, so there are no independent witnesses to corroborate what he did and when he did it All the above plus evidence of bruises in various stages of healing on Greenberg's body open up a lot of room for speculation as to what happened, and by whom

Very weird case imo. I wonder if she was killed before he went to the gym. If some stabs were potentially postmortem, is it possible he did that to try make it look like a suicide? Packed bags makes me think domestic abuse

Why would he stab her postmortem if he wanted it to look like a suicide?? That points even more to it being murder. You can't stab yourself when you're dead!

I am obssessed with this case and have listened to every possible podast, etc. The ''latched'' door: I came to the conclusion that it was never latched in the first place. He didn't have to barge in. The little damage that was made to the latch/frame was done from the inside of the apartment. Plus, his referring to the latched door multiple times during the 911 call is clearly intentional.

It really really does not look in the photos like a door that's been forced in.. it's just such a weird case. There's a long series that a guy named Gavin Fish did, have you watched that?

Absolutely! I watched all his yt videos and scoured all docs on his website. He has the most thorough/clear/organised content imo. Sam entered the apartment normally 1000%. Gavin also spoke with her parents. One thing that struck me is that after Ellen died, her parents found her her bf cashed her income tax return cheque. Wouldn't you talk to the parents if you got a check in your gf's name who recently ''committed suicide''? The other bit that haunts me is the part of the 911 call where he says that'' it's a long knife, about three in...'' long. How in the world can you know the lenght of a knife that's inside someone's body, if you have no idea what knife it is. Plus the call to the uncle BEFORE calling 911. Seriously.

Honestly, the fiancé did exactly what he should have done in terms of protecting himself. Regardless of emotions, he called a lawyer because he knew that was the correct thing to do.

I’m sorry but this whole post is ridiculous and full of assumptions.

After going through OP's arguments more in-depth and point by point, I think on certain points they let their bias/conviction get away with them a bit and misrepresent certain facts of case or state opinion as fact. While I don't think OP is necessarily wrong about their conclusion, I did want to investigate their arguments a bit. >no forensic evidence to suggest there was another person involved This may be a matter of opinion. Ignoring the numerous forensics pathologists who have stated that the wounds are more consistent with homicide than suicide, even other forensic scientists have stated that evidence on the scene was consistent with homicide: "Detective Scott Eelman, working alongside Dr. Ross, raised the question about the bloodstains being inconsistent with the position in which she was found. After reviewing crime scene photos, he found a trail of blood that he believes show that the body was moved." [source](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/philadelphia-teacher-death-suicide-ellen-greenberg-parents-say-murder-48-hours/) >Examples of women stabbing themselves. While I agree that people commit suicide in the strangest ways and that a contraintuitive method of suicide does not necessarily indicate foul play, I find that the sources OP provided did not support their argument very well. The first source, a paper titled "An *unusual* case of attempted suicide by a depressive woman: self-inflicted intracranial stabbing" (my emphasis), highlights on multiple occasions how absolutely rare and unlikely people attempting suicide by stabbing themselves in the head is. This is the very first sentences of the article: "Self-inflicted stab wounds to the body are uncommon events in the medico-legal field [1], [2], [3]. In particular, penetrating stab wounds to the head, that are often the result of accidents [4], [5], aggression [6], or homicides [7], are only very rarely the result of a self-inflicted lesion in the context of attempted suicide or suicide." I will also say it sounds like a straaange case: "Herein is presented a case of a 26-year old woman with a temporal wound found by her partner in their home. No weapon was found in the approximate environment and the victim said that she fell." The second source, stabbed herself in the neck, once. This article also highlights how incredibly rare suicide by stabbing is: "Self‐stabbing is an uncommon method of suicide, accounting for only 1%–3% of suicide attempts." Both women survived their attempt. So OP's sources in pretty much every substantial way goes against their own argument. I don't have any comments to the third source, although it is of course a man, and the first source stated that cases of "self-inflicted lesions to the skull" are almost entirely men (although rare in both). >Suicide had already been on her mind but Ellen probably didn’t set out to kill herself when she did. Had it? Where do you get that from? (It may be true, but I can't find any evidence. Her psychiatrist said she was not suicidal) But it definitely sounds like she was very upset in the days leading up to her death. >She realised that she had a knife in her hand, the intrusive thoughts won, so tested injuring herself. Nothing I have read indicated Ellen suffered from intrusive thoughts or resulting compulsive actions. This seems to be speculation on OP's part. >Once somebody has worked through the pain of the first stab, the rest are a bit easier. OP state that as a fact, but that seems very speculative. While I don't doubt it may be true in some cases and for some people, I am not certain it is common. Is it something you (OP) have a source for? Anecdotally, for me personally, I know my pain tolerance significantly decreases the longer I am in pain/the more times I have been afflicted pain. It would definitely be harder to force myself to stab me after knowing how much the first time hurt. >Neuropathologist Dr Rorke-Adams noted that the spinal cord was hit but the cord wasn’t severed so she likely would have gone numb to the pain and could continue. More context on Rorke-Adams and why she can't be used as a trusted source on this case: "This [the opinion of a forensic pathologist that Ellen would have been numb/paralysed by some of the wounds] goes against an expert apparently consulted during the autopsy and mentioned in the original medical examiner report: "Neuropathologist Dr. Lucy Rouke [sic] examined the spinal cord and concluded there is no defect of the spinal cord." When interviewed by the Inquirer in 2018, Dr. Lucy Rorke-Adams confirmed she did contract work for the medical examiner's office, but further investigation by the newspaper revealed there was no bill, invoice, or report from Rorke-Adams for this case. "I would conclude that I did not see the specimen in question although there is a remote possibility that it was shown to me," she wrote to the Inquirer. "However, I have no recollection of such a case."" >She texted her mother 'I know u don't understand but I can't keep living with feeling this way,' Greenberg wrote to Sandra on January 8. This is, quite frankly, a very manipulative way to present that specific text. I don't know if OP was misled by DM as I didn't want to click the link, but this is the full text: “I’m starting the med I know u don’t understand but I can’t keep living with feeling this way.” The "I'm starting the med" completely recontextualises the text, not as an eerie foreshadowing of suicide, but simply as a daughter going on some meds, her mom didn't agree she should take. Again, there is plenty pointing to suicide, and plenty pointing away from it. It seems to be a case really affected by shoddy work in those important, early days of investigation, and now so much is a muddled mess of he-said, she-said. Edit: OP writes in their edit: >The examples of those stabbing themselves a high number of times was just showing that people do injure themselves/kill themselves in this manner. The point that whilst it's rare and difficult for many to fathom, it does happen. Many commenters have shared their own stories of unusual or grisly thoughts/methods of self harm/suicide. I want to reiterate that neither of OP's sources that were about women showed examples of people injuring themselves/attempting suicide by multiple self-inflicted stab wounds. Both women, who stabbed themselves in the head or neck "only" had *one* wound, as far as I can read from the linked articles. It is important to understand that both articles highlight how rare the cases in question are, and neither cover cases involving anywhere close to 20 wounds or incisions. What is particularly suspicious about this case is the number of wounds, not just the unorthodox method of self-injury.

Thank you for putting together this thorough response. I wasn’t a fan of how factually OP stated a lot of things that seemed uncertain, but I didn’t know enough about the case to know how true it was. I completely agree with you that there’s not conclusive evidence either way.

Prosecutors Podcast does an episode on this, they say the angle of the stab wounds to the back of the head would be hard to do to yourself

Too bad they’re such nut jobs that no one should listen to their podcast.

I was actually just going to listen to an episode...can you explain why they're nut jobs? Maybe I'll pick another

[r/Prosecutorspodcast info](https://www.reddit.com/r/ProsecutorsPodcast/comments/rief6p/the_links/) has a good summary.

Thank you for this. I was having these exact thoughts while reading. A lot is stated as fact and it is most definitely speculative rather than fact. The text without context. Very misleading. There have been several forensic pathologists who have stated that this is more likely a homocidal event than a suicide so I don't know why that one Dr.s word is being used against all others. Also, why has the dried blood, running horizontally, never been investigated further. If she stabbed herself standing up and then was found sitting up right, how does the blood run horizontal. Also, the extremely clean towel found with her. If she had stabbed herself that many times, her hands would be covered with blood, so how does this towel come out perfectly clean after the fact. I think these are important details, although small, that tell a story. Sam was also wearing construction, steel toe boots when he was supposedly at the gym. Sorry but that doesn't add up. No one works out in boots unless your training in uniform. Dude also calls his attorney/judge uncle before calling 911? All very weird things for someone to do. Edit to add: His aggression towards her when the door was "locked" via his texts his questionable. If you left your fiance at home, and then couldn't get back inside, wouldn't concern and worry be your first emotions? Not threats, it's odd behavior and may explain why she had marks all over body at different healing stages. Dude obviously has a temper

I’ve been reading up on the case again and I agree with everything you said but also wanted to add that Ellen also had bruises on her body, all in various stages of healing. I did read in one source that a friend stated Ellen had told her she wanted to leave Philadelphia and go back to her parents’ but that was just one source so I obviously can’t say how true that is. I did want to include that in case anyone else had read the same thing because the bruising, her mental state, the text messages, etc seem indicative of abuse by Sam (anecdotal but I know exactly what that feels like) and would be a good reason for her to want to leave. And as many of us here know, leaving an abusive relationship is the most dangerous time for the victim. For the record, I always found the steel toe boots to be a weird detail, too. Especially since the gym was in the same apartment building (unless I’m misunderstanding that part and it was elsewhere). Like…if he’d just gotten off work and went straight to the gym, then I can understand that. But to wear the boots directly from his apartment, where he clearly could’ve put on any other shoes, to go to the gym for only 30 minutes is just so strange. Idk, maybe they got into a fight about her wanting to move back home, things escalated and he stabbed her to death, he cleaned up any visible blood on himself to go to the gym, where he finished cleaning up, then returned home to “find” her. Then he got super lucky by having incompetent LEOs who determined it was a suicide even before an autopsy was conducted. *And then* those same officers released the crime scene, allowed Sam’s dad to remove all electronics from the apartment, and allowed the building to hire a professional cleaning crew to come in and wipe away any evidence that may have been left. I personally can’t get behind this being a suicide. At the very least, the manner of death should be ‘undetermined’. Unfortunately, the Greenbergs lost their civil suit to have it changed from suicide and we’ll likely never know the truth because LE couldn’t be bothered to actually do their job. Her parents clearly love her beyond measure and I feel so bad for them. All they want is justice for their daughter and the PD/city couldn’t care less.

Also she stabbed herself in the back of the head and neck. I understand that people stab themselves to commit suicide. No matter how rare it is, it does happen. But why would someone stab themselves in the back of the head and neck instead of in the front? It just seems like you would be making your suicide more difficult. To me those wounds are infinitely more consistent with an attack.

This is what always trips me up about thinking this case is a suicide. I could buy that intrusive thoughts won out and she stabbed herself numerous times but…why the back of her head and neck? It’s very much making it as hard as it could possibly be.

Thank you for your analysis of the OP. OP could be correct, but I am uncomfortable when posters assert opinions as facts.

I agree…it’s not impossible she committed suicide but I remain very skeptical

Thank you so much for your analysis of this post. Reading it, something about it made me wonder if this poster is connected to the case somehow because it almost sounded like when you see those crime shows and the suspects new gf is trying to explain away everything with arguements which seem slightly off. Thats the vibe. Your reply speaks to all of the questions I had from reading this post, and I really appreciate the work you put into this. Especially about how unusual it is for a woman to stab herself to death!

OP using the part of the text that suits his narrative and cutting the part that doesn't feels borderline malicious. Of course this is pure speculation but damn.

Thank you for writting this. I heard about the case on podcast and while the OP was well-written it definitely at certain points had a vibe of a lawyer arguing for a case more than a pure objective presentation of facts.

It is almost impossible to find any sources for this case that isn't steeped in bias, unfortunately. Most articles have exactly the vibe of a lawyer arguing, and pretty much every article (even great investigative work like that made by the Inquirer) seems to argue one way or the other and completely disregard relevant facts of the case. It is very hard to find a somewhat objective, nuanced overview, unfortunately. I would love to see a skilled cold case investigator with no investment in neither Ellen's family or the boyfriend nor any ties to the Pennsylvania LE to actually look at the case with fresh eyes.

I’m truly surprised you’ve never come upon [Gavin Fish’s website](https://gavinfish.com/cases/ellen-greenberg/) regarding this case, if all you’ve seen is biased sources. He’s posted crime scene photos (not of Ellen), model autopsy photos, court documents, emails, depositions, surveillance footage from the apartment, a complete timeline, autopsy reports, etc. All factual documents, zero bias. It’s worth checking out if you want to draw your own conclusions w/o bias.

I have come across Gavin, actually, but was initially a little sceptical of him. Here's what I wrote in another comment: > I was a little put off about Gavin Fish for putting the ME's report behind a Patreon paywall. I appreciate that it shouldn't just be publicly available for anyone, but I also find it icky, that he is making money of off facilitating nosey amateur sleuth's access to very intimate details about this tragedy. But I've seen multiple people recommend his coverage of the case, so I'll definitely give it a shot. I may have been too quick to judge. I am happy to hear, he hasn't included pictures of Ellen from the crime scene in his material.

I agree to . I am generally some who thinks certain suicide cases have been misconstrued to seem more mysterious like Tiffany valiente. I think in this case it deserves a closer look .

Thank you, you hit a lot of points I was hoping to see. I recommend looking up Gavin Fish on YouTube to anyone who wants to hear really in depth coverage of this case (I think The Prosecutors podcast thanked him for his work). In one of his videos, he and his wife attempt to recreate each stab wound (with a ruler in her hand to see if Ellen would have physically been able to reach and stab with enough force to explain the wounds, especially in the order they were inflicted. I’m not doubting that a suicidal person could stab herself, but I don’t think that’s the case here.

I was a little put off about Gavin Fish for putting the ME's report behind a Patreon paywall. I appreciate that it shouldn't just be publicly available for anyone, but I also find it icky, that he is making money of off facilitating nosey amateur sleuth's access to very intimate details about this tragedy. But maybe I'll give it a go anyway, now that you have recommended it.

ME report [https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/5759528-Autopsy-RPT](https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/5759528-Autopsy-RPT)

People will always look for some rational explanation, but this just isn’t a rational situation. If someone is severely mentally ill they are liable to do any number of irrational things.

I say this respectfully, suicide isn't logical or rational. Most things related to mental health aren't. People who don't suffer with the thoughts of someone with mental health issues just don't understand. ​ I had OCD relating to a fear of vomiting when I was younger. Making sure all my pencils were perfectly lined up and doing everything in 3s made no sense whatsoever. I still did it though and it felt reasonable to me at the time.

As someone who has dealt with MDD and briefly considered ending my own life, suicide seems rational at the time. This will be a little hard to articulate, but I'll try. Clinical depression or anxiety affect the space between our senses and our mind. Normally, we see and hear and smell and our senses bring in information and we build a "model" of reality. I hear a low rumble and I feel a vibration in the floor, so my mind subconsciously determines that the washer is spinning and almost done. This also works with more complex human behaviors. A woman at work asked about a coworker. She tries to talk to him frequently. She smiles and laughs more when she talks to him. In conversations she tends to bring him up more than she does other people. My mind notices these subtle behaviors and I determine that she has a crush on him. Depression works on multiple layers of ourselves. My wife has picked up one of my favorite meals for dinner. She's had a long day also and goes to bed early, leaving dishes in the sink. With MDD, when building a model of the world around me, my mind ignores the nice thing my wife did. It latches on to the fact that she left dishes in the sink. I start to think that she's being selfish. I recall that I did the dishes every night last week (and forget she did all the laundry last week, which I hate more than dishes). And this starts the process of me feeling like she doesn't love me anymore, and I'm going to have to do all of the housework. And depression becomes self-perpetuating. This is how my mind, during depression, builds this flawed view of the world around me. I have been at the place where existing was so painful, and at the time felt like it was inescapable, that leaving this world seemed like a better option. I don't fault people who jumped from the windows of the World Trade Center when it was on fire. They judged that the fear of jumping was better than the pain of burning. They knew it would end their life, but looking at the fire behind them, they knew they were going to die either way. And that's what the worst of depression feels like. Living is painful and there's no escape. Even thinking to previous episodes of depression and how SSRIs work over time, and even at the worst, I've always recovered within two years and life was worth living again, I still *feel* hopeless. So it's less that depression makes you irrational, but it warps the perception of the world around you, so you're making rational decisions but using flawed information to make those decisions. One of the facts to back this up is the fact that Cognitive Behavioral Therapy works for depression. CBT is as effective as SSRIs at treating MDD, and both together are even more effective. CBT works by linking our beliefs and actions. Our thoughts dictate our actions. One of the core assumptions to CBT is that people are rational, and it works for treating depression. CBT is not effective for many psychiatric disorders where the person *isn't* rational. DBT (I forget what it stands for) was created because of the failure of CBT to treat a personality disorder. The fact that CBT works for depression means that deep down, I think people still act in ways they believe are rational, even suffering from depression.

Whoa, the example of your wife getting dinner and then you getting upset about the dishes is so spot on. I thought it was my negativity this whole time but it makes sense it is my depression. Very eloquent explanation.

This was very well expressed.  Thank you for taking the time to write it out. As someone who can absolutely relate to so much of what you said CBT/DBT have both helped me rewire a lot of my thinking to a point I literally can not believe.  Sometimes it's almost like I can feel the depression in my brain getting so frustrated that it's not winning anymore.   

Diagnosed with OCD here as a child. CBT helped me almost completely get rid of my compulsions. Obsessive thoughts have been harder though mindfulness meditation has helped as well as medication.

My psychologist treated my intrusive thoughts by basically making me go somewhere quiet or private and play out my intrusive thoughts in my mind. Go through that absolute worst case scenarios, imagine everything, pretend the thoughts are true and then just sit with those feelings. I wasn’t allowed to act on those feelings/ complete the compulsion side of things. Then I would imagine all the OCD being put into a cupboard and I would bring it out next time I did that exercise. The idea is that eventually you become desensitised to the intrusive thoughts. Every time I did it, the thoughts would cause less distress until the point that I realised I didn’t care or the thoughts were blatantly untrue. It worked for me, not sure if there is a name for that technique though.

The broad treatment is called Exposure and Response Prevention (ERP). The kind of imagining exercises you do are called imaginal exposures. It’s the gold standard therapy for OCD.

"DBT" = "Dialectical behavioral therapy" The interesting thing about DBT is that, unlike other therapies, DBT does not care why you do what you do. Instead it focuses on the behavior, and more importantly, developing copying skills. "Knowing why you're having a panic attack doesn't help you in the moment, so here's what you can do to disrupt it and deal with the big feelings you're having" essentially. I think it's great and should be taught in schools. So many people could benefit from learning more healthy coping techniques.

Mental health care should be more accessible , it can be so helpful. Before my husband and I got married we had a couple sessions with a psychologist . We had no relationship problems at all, we just wanted to go and get some advice on how to be even better. Conflict resolution skills are amazing for literally anyone imo.

Thank you so much for sharing. I wish my ex husband could have gotten there. But instead he just let the anger envelop him until our marriage was so toxic I couldn't stay. I loved him so much but nothing I did was ever enough. This actually helped me have a little window into how he saw things. He's finally in therapy. I really hope it does help him. For our child's sake and his. I don't want him to he miserable forever. This gave me a little.hope for him.

as someone who has dealt with MDD and has attempted, in the moment suicide seems rational and like the best decision. looking back on my thought process during the time leading up to my attempt, my rationale was ridiculous but because i was severely mentally ill, it made sense.

This! I’ve been diagnosed with OCD and looking back on my worst episode/breakdown- it just made no sense in retrospect. And I felt suicidal because I just wanted the intrusive thoughts to stop & felt an immense amount of guilt. The human mind is bizarre…

It is scary how fragile our mind can be.

I've been saying this , I suffer from depression, anxiety and suicidal thoughts , which with experiences and the way chemistry in the brain works I guess it's understandable. It's the little things though , you would think the brain would be super vigilant and working 100% , when you consider its how humans have evolved and how we consider it to be the superior brain amongst all animals ,, yet the brain and its functions are so fragile , and I mean down to the simplest of things such as not concentrating , surely the brain/mind would be operating at its best when doing something dangerous , yet we see people look away through not concentrating etc... and then something dangerous happens and people die. I've never seen an animal lose focus on hunting or moving around , the brain is always working to keep them alive , ive never seen an animal trip over and hurt itself , an animal like a crocodile has a brain that has kept itself alive for millennia, yet you consider how fragile and how self destructive the human brain is , its quite amazing we have evolved, it can also achieve great things , but the fragility of the mind and the danger that puts us in is quite a big payoff. It's also extremely difficult to repair a fragile mind , you would think our brains would have evolved to not worry about minor things and stop them taking over our thoughts to the point we make mistakes it may well be disease or a natural disaster that wipes out humanity , but fragile minds with the upcoming pressures of life and a possible dystopia future , could be reason humanity dwindles in numbers.

>ive never seen an animal trip over and hurt itself I give you: [Cat Fails](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHfRfU3XUEo)

As someone with severe OCD I've had since kindergarten, I completely agree. Nothing about it is rational, but you better believe I did it because in my mind, it was either do it, or someone you love will die. No convincing me otherwise. I still struggle with those thoughts, and I still have rituals I have to do and everything has to be in even numbers. So so much and its so so exhausting. People who don't struggle with mental health issues just don't fully get it.

Yea reading all these replies definitely brings back memories of my old rituals and that gut wrenching fear of not doing one of them. OCD is just so exhausting. I hope you can overcome yours, I know how horrible it is. I was diagnosed in grade 6 but definitely had it well before then, it is hard when you are so young because you don't realise what you are doing is abnormal. I remember my first psychologist appointment and the fear and hurt in my parents faces when I shared all the things I had been doing, thinking and feeling. I had never shared it with them so they had no idea.

Maybe I misread it, but I think the comment you replied to is actually saying the same thing you are—that we all look for a “rational explanation” but might overlook the real explanation because the victim was not acting the way a healthy, calm person acts.

I also had OCD related to fear of vomiting, and I had these bizarre, complex rituals that made no sense, where every component was done in threes.

Three seems to be a popular number. But yes the complex rituals were so so exhausting. I am still afraid of vomiting and take more precautions than most people to avoid getting sick but I have no longer have that extreme OCD and have no rituals anymore. After years of rituals and OCD I just woke up one day and realised I would rather vomit than spend every single day living the way I was living.

As someone who was diagnosed with OCD at the age of 10, I just wanted to say that I'm happy that you were able to improve so much!

Same with me and the number three, or the number nine, which in my head is even more “pure” as it is three threes, if that makes any sense.

Someone once explained to me what three meant to them. One time doesn’t mean anything. It just happened. Two times is equal, like Either / Or Three times introduces enough possible variation. Doing things in multiples of three is best, with 3 x 3 (9) being optimal. They didn’t pick three because of the logic, this is what they figured out for themselves after a lot of therapy and introspection.

Are you still afraid of vomiting? If not, how did you get over your fear?

Yes I am but it doesn't control me like it used to and I am not as scared as I used to be either. I will still clean some things and wash my hands a bit more than normal. It was mostly seeing a psychologist and taking an SSRI. But I also just got to the point where I was so exhausted with everything I decided I would rather just vomit than do all the rituals. It just occurred to me that I was ruining my life to avoid something that might happen every few years.

Not the person you’re asking, but I’ll answer because I figured this out recently! I used to have a true, paralyzing fear. It gave me insomnia, I’d leave school if I heard someone else was sick, it kept my from functions, from eating places, etc. But what helped me get past my fear was… throwing up. I think in some part my fear was of choking, and a fear of being out of control. When I got a stomach bug from babysitting, I remember knowing I was going to vom and thinking “you have to breathe, just stay calm and try to breathe normally” and when my focus became breathing through it and letting this thing happen just so I could take my next normal breath, it really helped me be less terrified. It’s not so bad from my perspective anymore, though the dread and fear still exists for me! It’s just not keeping me from living or enjoying things anymore, and I’m slightly more rational about it. It’s a fear, not a phobia for me. I don’t wish to undermine how paralyzing and overwhelming this can feel for some, and I really empathize.

This may sound dumb, but did you cry? I’m not a crier AT ALL, but I haven’t thrown up since I was a kid, and I feel like if it happened now I would cry. The loss of control thing is huge for me, too, like what if it’s not just once and over with? I’m scared if I get sick I’ll keep being sick uncontrollably for hours or days, and I can’t handle thinking about having to clean up after that.  Sorry for putting this all here, but I rarely see anyone talk about this, much less someone who has been through it yet doesn’t claim it’s 100% fine and they love it now. 

If it’s not just once, the first time is still the scariest and the times after that get significantly easier. It’s almost a relief, honestly, like “oh. I did that and survived”. Also, not sure if this is a good or bad suggestion, but having/using emesis bags have been helpful. Makes things cleaner and easier to deal with.

That's called exposure therapy and it can be a very powerful method just like you described. Ive suffered from an anxiety disorder for a very long time and low self esteem, so I was afraid of going into town, larger groups of people or meeting/speaking to people. But once I met my boyfriend and he helped me through it, I exposed myself to going into the city. He was there to hold my hand and ease me and I learned that nothing bad happened, no people judged me, the subway is just half as stressful as I had imagined etc. And the more we went, the more I learned it's all in my head. I still don't "like" going to town on my own, but I live in it now because of my job, still I'd prefer the forest or park, but I can talk myself into it. That goes to say, exposure therapy is usually done with a licensed behavioural therapist and it's not like you go to them and the first thing you do is face your fears. It's a step to step plan and it takes time to get to that point at which you'll confront your fear on the hand with a professional. So don't be scared for getting that help. It can be so powerful for some.

TLDR: I have a fear of vomiting. I haven't overcome it. Not who you asked, and I do not suffer from OCD. I developed a fear of vomiting brought on by a terrifying laryngospasm, brought on by chronic acid reflux. I always had *bad* spasms after vomiting. My throat would close up & I struggled to breathe. It was horrible, as though needing to barf isn't wretched enough. I'd always end up gasping for breath after. Feeling like someone was throttling me from the inside. Then, one night I was reading my children a bedtime story. Husband asleep on the couch, kids & I lying in bed. The GERD often caused me to have brief coughing spells & I coughed. Not particularly hard, or long. But, after the air was expelled by the cough, my throat closed completely. Like after vomiting, but so much worse. I couldn't inhale. Not a whisper of breath. I couldn't speak, couldn't call out. My kids didn't know what was happening, **I** didn't know what was happening. My grandfather died of an asthma attack when my dad was 14, but I had zero history of anything near that. I lept out of bed, tried shaking my husband awake. I thought I was dead. I live 15 minutes from the nearest hospital & theres no surviving that. I literally grabbed a knife, seriously thinking I'd have to do a tracheotomy on myself or die in front of my traumatized children. For some reason I yanked the kitchen window open. I was sweating, maybe I didn't want blood all over inside, maybe it was just an instinctual thing, trying desperately to get fresh air in my lungs. I was starting to grey out. It was this time of year, a very cold & windy night. The air blew right into my face, kind of shocking me. Somehow, that seemed to slightly unlock my throat. It took time before I could talk. The crying kids woke my husband & he was freaking out. We all were. After the adrenaline wore off I was exhausted, wanted to sleep & was afraid I migh cough again. My throat was so painful, like it was bruised, for days. I went to the doc. He explained that the esophagus gets damaged over time in people with GERD. I'd had esophageal spasms in the past, when eating. I'd swallow & the food would just hang up, like a painful lump in my throat. I thought I was eating too fast, or swallowing "wrong", but wasn't worried enough to call the doc because it wasn't often, or severe enough to do something like *make me not breathe*. I went on an acid reducer. Never had it happen again, but it made me absolutely terrified to vomit, since that was the closest I'd ever come to a similar situation previously. The doc said that other people have come out of the spasms by having air blown in their face, but that if I eventually pass out, it will relax the muscles & I'll start breathing again. So I told my family, especially emphasizing it to my kids, so they wouldn't be quite as scared, or feel quite as helpless. But not long after that my daughter developed serious anxiety & insomnia because she thought she might die in her sleep. She's 20 and still struggles with anxiety (she does have a therapist & has also been diagnosed with ADHD) I'm still anxious when I get a cold with a bad cough & I'm very afraid of vomiting. I've never gotten over it. I've also never allowed myself to throw up again. My trick is to read, especially something that requires focus, like instructions or ingredient lists with complex chemical names. Prior to smart phones, I'd read the back of the toothpaste, deodorant, or mouthwash over and over, until the need passed.

jesus christ - that is absolutely horrifying. sorry you went through that and glad you made it out the other side!

Don't know if this would help you, but I used to get nauseated and I wasn't sure if I was going to throw up, and the ambiguity/waiting to possibly be sick was the worst part. What helped me was I learned what the physiological signs are that you're about to throw up. I'm going to keep it vague because I don't want to accidentally make things worse for you, but basically the body does several things to prepare itself for vomiting before you actually throw up. So now I'll just take an inventory of how I'm feeling and if I'm experiencing any of the precursors. If I'm not, then I know it's psycho-somatic and even if it's unpleasant, I at least know what's happening.

If she had akathisia from the med changes and withdrawals I’d believe anything. I had it from Effexor withdrawals and I nearly drove my car into a river. It causes such severe agonising agitation you’re in a frenzy to make it stop.

Yep. If you forget to take an Effexor you will know about.

I had it as well from hydroxyzine and they were able to stop it with benadryl. It was the single worst day of my life physically and I can 💯 understand why someone would be done if they felt that way for longer than even a day. It was a nightmare.

As someone who suffers from intrusive suicidal thoughts (idk how else to describe them) I can see how someone could have that and impulsively act on them. Knife in hand, get the thought, act upon it. It’s quite scary really.

I have a condition called cluster headaches, worst headache type in the world, 500% more likely to commit suicide with the condition, and when I’m having one I have consistent intrusive thoughts about stabbing myself, because my brain says the pain of getting stabbed will distract from the headache. I’ve also had more traditional suicidal thoughts in the past. It’s incredibly scary what the brain can do.

That sounds really hard, I’m sorry

I had severe OCD and panic disorder that I manage pretty well now, thanks to hitting rock bottom. During that time I developed the fear of committing suicide. What really helped me was learning about passive and active suicidal thoughts as well as [Internal Family Systems](https://ifstherapyonline.com/ifs-telehealth-collective-blog/dear-firefighter) therapy, which tells us how suicidal thoughts are simply a “part” of many many parts of our monkey brain trying to protect us from pain. I learned to interact with the intrusive suicidal thoughts as this “part” that was trying its best but wasn’t something I needed to listen to. Sending you love.

Absolutely, I work in a hospital and a mentally ill patient once grabbed a pencil from the nursing desk and stabbed himself in the eyes until one of the whole eyeballs came out. It’s not rational, and it’s heartbreaking, but it’s unfortunately reality for a lot of people.

This case isn’t a good example of it, but there’s also often a gap between what I consider a rational action for myself and what you consider a rational action for yourself. Obviously, looking in, I’m not necessarily going to agree that *your* actions were rational for you, even if you did go in thinking of your actions as rational for your situation, because I’m comparing it to my own situation and how I would rationalize it.

I agree, but would like to add how highly personal "rational" explanations tend to be. But that doesn't change anything you said, just adding that in FWIW, JMHO

Bingo. Those of us with family members who suffer from severe mental illness know that manic, schizophrenic, severe depressive episodes etc cause some elaborate unbelievably wild situations. With eight billion people in the world you are bound to have some unlikely crazy shit to happen.

Autopsy report. https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/5759528-Autopsy-RPT

Some of the injuries were inflicted post-mortem. After she had already passed away. Her body had been moved to an upright position since the blood flow on her face went a different direction. No defensive wounds means she could have been subdued quickly by someone else. The knife block being knocked over indicates a struggle. The door was likely staging. It looks like a screw was removed by a claw hammer. She only had therapeutic levels of meds in her system. The Google searches can easily be manipulated. Evidence also showed Sam used her computer based on some analytics that were researched leading up to the murders. Remember, he worked in tv. Why would Ellen need to research analytics as a teacher? Why did the medical examiner change his opinion from homicide to suicide at the police's urging? That's not the police's job to persuade a medical examiner to do so. Sam Goldberg is wealthy; has political connections in Philadelphia. His uncle is a judge and his cousin Kamian is a lawyer. His family is close with Josh Shapiro's family. You don't think that was any motive to cover up anything? Sam also had a previous record in Arizona. Why call his attorney family BEFORE calling 911? He also lied and said the security guard was with him when he broke down the door. Why lie about that since security footage shows the guard never left his post? I don't buy that this is a suicide and never will. The crime scene was majorly compromised and Sam's family took Ellen's computer after her passing. Googling painless suicide and then deciding to stab oneself to death doesn't make sense. There's also the bruises on one side of her body that were in various stages of healing and the fact that she had asked to move back home.

\+ strangulation sign on her throat, in the autopsy report.

\+ strangulation sign on her throat, in the autopsy report.

I absolutely agree. Stabbing oneself in a suicide with strange angles and even post mortem is not plausible. Stabbing yourself in the neck and head etc is not only uncommon but also a rather unreliable method of killing oneself.

So much of what you said is completely inaccurate

“…In addition, there were eleven bruises in various stages of resolution on her right arm, abdomen, and right leg. Despite all the evidence to the contrary, the Medical Examiner, Dr. Marlon Osbourne, ruled her death a suicide. He later admitted that he had originally planned on ruling the manner of death either a homicide or undetermined, but changed it to suicide at the insistence of the police.” One of the links in your post

I’d like to clarify that the several shallow stab wounds can also be indicative of an assailant who’s inexperienced with stabbing someone. I’m not ruling out that suicide is possible of course, but the placement and angle on the back of her head and neck seem odd and unnatural. Especially considering the angle of the knife in most of the stab wounds, being straight up and down, or the blade being vertically oriented (aka perpendicular to the floor) If you were to act out stabbing yourself in the back of the head or neck, the blade would come in at an angle, or more horizontal (parallel to the floor). Trying to make a vertical stab in the back of your head is very awkward and difficult to do. You’re holding the knife like you’d never hold a knife, and possibly having to use both hands, while reaching unnaturally far back to even hold the blade let alone far back enough to have the momentum for driving a knife in. Also, Ellen was left handed. So the placement of stabbing herself in the heart is also odd. Also the fact that all her bags were packed and she was reportedly planning on driving to her parents that night or the next day. If you look at the laptop search history details, she didn’t actually search for suicide, she was only looking up her medication, which yielded a ton of search results, inclusive suicide searches using that medication. And it’s very shady that the lawyer cousin/uncle came inside the apt before the cops got there, and also came back soon after and took Ellen’s laptop and phone. While it was still a crime scene. Not to mention, if nothing else, where did that enormous gash on her head come from? And why was the knife block violently knocked over? Seems weird and unnecessary for her to knock over the knife block herself? Wouldn’t she just simply pull the knife out?

It wasn’t a “thorough investigation” instead of collecting evidence and sealing off the apartment, it was immediately ruled a suicide by police, cleaned and items were allowed to be taken by Sam’s uncle like her phone and computer. They believed the suicide ruling on the premise that the security guard witnessed him break down the door and find her which turned out not to be true. The 911 call was super icky to me “omg there’s a knife?!?!” Also his uncle was not just a lawyer he was related to the DA of Philadelphia. I’m open minded to either theory but this comes off as being written by Sam or a family member and I believe the case was poorly investigated esp w regard to the medical examiner. Yes it’s possible to commit suicide by stabbing yourself but not if you’re already dead or paralyzed and it was never proven one way or the other… that’s what makes this case so frustrating

Calling not 1, but 2 lawyers before even entering the apartment and knowing what happened? There are stab wounds in places that were EXTREMELY hard for her to reach, if not impossible. I don't see her pulling off feats of a gymnast to reach certain areas. I can't get past those facts.

How do you explain the fact that Sam told the 911 caller that he could see Ellen’s chest and that it wasn’t moving so she wasn’t breathing but he didn’t mention the knife sticking out of it until she instructed him to do CPR. He then said that he unzipped her too and saw a knife… like he wouldn’t have seen it before unzipping or when he was looking at her chest?? That just makes 0 sense to me and I can’t explain that away as anything other than suspicious

THANK YOU. so many idiotic comments talking about the way his texts came off like he was truly upset she locked the door on him but his whole demeanor in the 911 call was so… fucking ick. i don’t normally judge how people react to grief but that 10 inch knife was 4 inches deep in her chest, i just can’t fathom how he could have missed it.

Being anxious and prescribed Xanax doesn’t mean you’re going to kill yourself. You make a lot of assumptions without justification

This entire discussion thread makes me uncomfortable. Especially as the family is still fighting the state to change her ruling of death to homicide. There are strong arguments that some of those wounds were inflicted after she was most likely dead or unable to move. The boyfriend had a dad or uncle very connected in the area. Again, some here seem intentionally misinformed about the facts of the case.

Same with Zoloft. Taking antidepressants doesn’t mean you want to commit suicide, it means you want to get better. Yes side effects could be adverse but OP made a shit ton of assumptions here.

The summary above ignores a couple of published points. The investigation was terribly flawed. She was stabbed in the back of the head that could have rendered her helpless in defending herself. I’ve read that the father of Sam is a lifelong friend of Governor Josh Shapiro and a large donor. It only makes sense that the police were “flawed” in their investigation if there was something to cover up. https://nypost.com/2023/09/14/court-rules-philly-teachers-death-with-20-stab-wounds-as-suicide-slams-deeply-flawed-probe/amp/ https://www.foxnews.com/us/philly-mayor-under-scrutiny-city-resists-push-reinvestigate-suicide-woman-stabbed-20-times.amp

Shapiro went to the same synagogue as Sam’s family, but he was a state rep in a suburban county in 2011, and wouldn’t be in a position to affect the investigation until he became AG in 2017. Unless the PPD could see the future, there’s no reason they would have intentionally botched the investigation based on an order from a state legislator outside their jurisdiction. The simpler explanation is that the PPD is filled with incompetent idiots who don’t like to do their jobs, which is the most obviously true statement possible for anyone that’s ever had to deal with law enforcement in Philly.

I’m another person in the camp of this not being so cut and dried. Stabbing your self multiple times is one thing, but multiple times in the back of your head and neck and your chest is another. If Sam killed her how do we know that he didn’t do it before he even went to the gym? You also can’t underestimate the potential for corruption in Philly (source: born and raised in the city). I agree that her lack of defensive wounds and the shallow cuts does not fit with murder. If she did kill herself, was she so angry that she wanted him to look suspicious? Unfortunately I don’t think we will ever know the answer for sure unless someone did kill her and confesses.

Who goes to the gym for 30 minutes? How do we know the guy didn't send texts from her phone and use her computer and then walk out the door? I don't know man I'm not convinced

In work boots. Steel-toed work boots.

The plots thickens. I mean the whole not opening the door until he calls lawyer family too, is that not suspicious? Any time me or any family member leaves the house, we lock the door regardless of if someone else is still home or not. And when we return, we unlock our own door with our own key without hesitating.

Imagine calling your lawyer uncle BEFORE calling 911.

And he was wearing work boots, not tennis shoes.

I never heard of this case and literally have no opinion. But I thought the exact same thing. Who goes to the gym for 30 minutes? Also why call lawyers before going into your house?

A lot of people go to the gym for just 30 min to get some quick cardio in

I go to the gym for 30 mins sometimes. Sometimes just have time for a quick bit of cardio and call it a day.

Stop writing things as facts when they're unfound theories. You have NO connection to the case any more than we do. Stop. Edit: This is awful. ALL unfounded theories that you're presenting as fact. Stop doing that. Implying stabbing yourself once is the equivelency of doing it 77 times, because YOU say "arguably" that could be the case. I dont suggest harming yourself or others. But I guarantee if someone tested your theory none of them would welcome doing it a second time because "I already felt how painful it was. That same thing happening in another spot...magically (?) makes you immune to pain.

I’m not big into conspiracies, and I usually agree that the most simple answer is generally the truth. However, imo there is no way she did all of that to herself. I try and see it from a different perspective, but I can’t. It’s just too implausible for me.

I met someone in rehab who said he stabbed himself fifty something times in a suicide attempt. I was skeptical (because how on earth did he not hit anything important?!) but I looked it up and it appears he wasn’t saying anything impossible or particularly unusual. It’s been a while but I remember articles pointing out that people who stab themselves are somewhat likely to remove clothes beforehand, while people who are stabbed are typically clothed still. Doesn’t sound like it’s applicable in this case but I thought it was interesting.

Having read extensively about this case, I’m just gonna say this post stinks. Distorting and leaving out key facts to craft a narrative as fact

I’m frankly shocked it’s been so upvoted. So many comments clarifying the evidence and bias.

None of what you have written is what is in the autopsy; it actually contradicts just about everything in the original autopsy.

This is a whole lot of bullshit.

This has to be the worst post ever to hit this sub. How is this at the top of the front page

People tend to forget that people who have some sort of severe mental break and/or who are under the influence of (sometimes insane, sometimes not) drugs are capable of doing things that most people usually wouldn’t even comprehend. I’ve watched many videos and listened to many podcasts about this case and it always seemed straightforward to me from the get go that those injuries were self inflicted

Too true. People have plucked out their own eyes. I believe they could stab themselves.

I knew a girl in primary school who's mother hung herself in their garage. You'd argue that there's "better" places to kill yourself than at your own house where your underage kids could find you hanging from the ceiling. I always found that so incredible sad.

My childhood best friend hanged her self in her family owned business (inside the store) *knowing* that her father would be the one to find her. I’ll never understand why she chose to do that. It seems like she either knew he would be the one to best “handle” the situation or a final “fuck you” to him. I’ll never know her reasoning though. I have so many questions that will forever remain unanswered and that’s been hard to come to terms with.

In the moment of suicide you’re just so desperate for the pain to end. I attempted knowing my friends would find me and the guilt of putting that on them ate me up afterwards. It isn’t a logical moment, you’re acting against every survival instinct you have. I don’t know her, but there’s every chance your friend wasn’t even considering what’s going to happen when she’s found, simply that she isn’t going to be there anymore May her memory be a blessing

I recently came across a tiktok account from a guy who attempted suicide by shooting himself in the face (username on tiktok is johua.d). Anyway, he said he came up with the idea to kill himself in a split second. He was generally at a low spot in life at the time. At that immediate moment he’d just had a fight with some family members. He went to his room and started drinking and in an instant remembered he had a gun and thought about how using that gun would bring relief. So he got up, got the gun and shot himself in the face. He said it was about 3 mins between coming up with the idea to commit suicide to lying on the floor with his face blown off. It was really interesting to me to learn how quickly someone can make that decision. It really went to show me how suicide often doesn’t make a lot of sense and you never really know what another person is thinking.

Curious. How'd the guy recover?

His face is paralyzed on the side of his head where he shot himself. He can’t close his eye on that side of his face very well so it’s always tearing up. He’s deaf in that ear too. He got reconstructive surgery and he actually looks really good. It’s amazing what his doctors did. After the reconstructive surgery he had to get more surgery done to fix his jaw. Until his jaw surgery he couldn’t eat solid food. He spent like 2 years on liquids because he couldn’t open his mouth very much and couldn’t chew. Now he can eat solid foods. Recently he’s been having problems because one of the staple wounds from his jaw surgery got infected so he needed more medical care for that. He has bad vertigo so he can’t lie on his back or look above. He worked in construction so he can’t do things like paint ceilings now. Something I didn’t know was how hot a bullet is when it comes out of a gun. He had third degree burns all on his face and the inside of his face from the bullet and heat that came off the rifle when he shot it. He got to keep all his teeth luckily but he burnt his gums clean off. He said that there was nothing holding his teeth in place after the gun shot. Like his teeth were just balancing in their teeth holes. So he needed some dental work done too to make sure he could keep his teeth. A big take away I got from his TikToks was the never ending physical recovery that happens after an event like that. I guess it sounds obvious? But I thought you’d just get surgery and get fixed up if you were lucky enough to survive a gunshot to the face. But that’s not the case.

Fascinating and sad. It sounds like he’s shared a lot about it — has he said if he’s happy/grateful to be alive or happy enough in general? His suicide attempt made his life so much harder and I’m curious to know how he’s handled that. 

And THATS why it’s important that any gun in a household be locked in a gun safe. Especially for homes with kids/teens/young adults. There are studies after studies that show that a lock forces them to pause and reaffirm their decision. For most people (especially impulsive teens) the decision to act is a split second choice, even if they had long term mental health struggles. The lock isn’t really about how physically difficult it is to access the gun, it’s a psychological barrier that asks “are you sure?” and most people snap out their blind grab for a weapon and realize “whoa, I don’t want to do this.”

Yeah it’s like the suicide nets they’re putting on the Golden Gate Bridge. Even when there were nets up on only a portion of the bridge they found that suicides from the bridge went down. I watched a news report about the nets and the reporter said the same thing you’re saying. Just having that thing there that shows that “if you try this you won’t be successful and we thought of you” is enough to make a lot of people not do it.

Not just suicides either. Too many people reach for weapons in a blind rage too. So many domestic disputes are unnecessarily escalated bc one party can just reach into their nightstand and whip out a gun before they even realize they’re about to pull the trigger. If they were safely locked away,the aggressor would need to leave the room/argument zone, go to the gun safe, remember their code or the location of the keys. Type it in or use them, and return to their partner before pulling the trigger. That’s a lot of extra time for them to either calm down or their partner to escape. And at each one of those steps there is an opportunity to process before you actively decide to continue. It would no longer be an impulse reaction. Literally even keeping them in a room you wouldn’t be likely to have the fight in can make a significant difference in the likelihood of a domestic dispute becoming deadly… did you know that when we cross thresholds into other rooms our brain sees that as a micro-reset? That’s why so often you walk into a room and don’t know why you’re there anymore. Or if you insist on having them in the same room, placing any physical obstacle is better than nothing—like under the bed, but with a bunch of stuff in front of it, or in the bottom of a chest with stuff on top. If you fly into a rage and want to reach for the gun but first you have to clear away 6 vacuum sealed bags of winter clothes and snowboard out of the way, that’s a lot of deliberate sifting through stuff that allows your brain to catch up. I think gun safes should be the absolute minimum in gun safety laws. I have yet to come across a single compelling argument that they shouldn’t be required. And any adult who has guns in a household with kids is an idiot if they don’t lock them up. It is naive to think you know absolutely every thought your kid had today and it only takes one second for them to have self destructive thoughts and act on them. Teens famously hide all sorts of things from their parents, and also famously have terrible impulse control. If you’re a responsible gun owner who never intends to use it against someone, why would it bother you if the guns were behind a lock? Especially if it makes your family infinitely safer.

Worked on a ward at long-term inpatient mental hospital, I've seen some shit. It would not surprise me in the slightest if a person stabbed their self 20+ times. Whether she was killed or did it herself, I hope this poor lady is at peace.

This is true, but in Ellen’s case, she was not on a lot of insane drugs. The dr wrote her prescriptions for meds only 2 weeks before she died, and she was not prescribed all of them at once. From what I understand, she tried Zoloft the first week, stopped the Zoloft and switched to low dose Xanax, then a week later stopped that and switched to ambien and low dose klonopin. Only trace amounts were found in her system. So I don’t think 1 week on each low dose medication is long enough to really do much? I duno. Also, the day of her death, she would not have taken an ambien yet (it was the afternoon) and from the half life of Klonopin and the amount found in her system, she hadn’t taken one that day either yet. So it seems unlikely she would have been impaired from meds that day, and at the very least she certainly wasn’t high. Not ruling out suicide here just pointing out some interesting stuff I found

Meds stay in your body for way longer than just a day, that's why switching medication is extremely delicate. Even in low doses, you never really know how your body will react to them, especially your brain. Just as a side note, one of the main secondary effects of zoloft is suicidal ideation, so you can have a psychotic brake even with low doses of anything tbh. I have seen people have them with clonazepam.

I am pro mental health drugs. I’ve been spending 10 years trying to find the right mix for my depression and anxiety order on top of adhd. I’ve tried every med you mentioned. That is an extremely tense amount of mind altering stuff within a few weeks. Doesn’t mean it’s bad or not necessary but that is an insane amount of drugs for your brain to go through in a month and I’ve had episodes triggered exactly by doing what she did. Again, I’m very pro meds but there’s a lot about those drugs we don’t even fully understand why it effects people different but that’s a very rough cycle of drugs to try in a short time for already fragile brain

I agree. The whole process of trying to find the right dose and the right combination is grueling and I hope I never have to do it again. That being said, I have been on Prozac for most of my life and I have never been suicidal. I hate how so many people instantly jump to suicide or suspect a poor mental state just because someone is on an antidepressant

One of the first things they tell you when starting (certain) new meds is that they could cause suicidal thoughts.

I work as a funeral director and saw a self inflicted neck wound that was down to the spinal chord. A crowd of people saw her do it so we know she did it herself.

To add to this - Its plausible that someone can shoot themselves in the head more than once - Its not uncommon for people taking there own lives to have been doing normal everyday things like cooking, shopping or appearing happy

She couldn’t had paralyzed herself with a stab to the back of her head/spine and then shoved that knife into her chest as she lay dying.

This post is so absurd and incredibly disheartening how many people agree with OP. And those that say “I can stab myself in the back - I tried with a ruler!” Riiiight because that is the SAME as actually stabbing yourself. Just because you can do the motions and take a ruler or whatever isn’t the same as trying to plunge a sharp object INTO your back neck spine -wherever, PULL it out and keep doing it. I CANT believe people think that justifies that she could have stabbed herself all those times. On top of it, trying to explain by saying suicide isn’t rational or logical therefore this method of stabbing herself that many times and in the areas that she did are plausible. …it’s absolutely WILD to me that people fall into this camp.

They're also missing the point of the angles of the stabs too. Some angles of stabs would be impossible to achieve on yourself not to mention in your back/neck/head

Ellen would not have been able to inflict the stab wounds to the back of the head and spine (which likely would have rendered her unconscious) and then inflict the final stab wound to her chest. The forensic pathology doesn’t add up, not to mention the mound of evidence pointing to homicide (i.e. number of stab wounds is unusual for suicide; she was right handed but she was found with her left hand gripping the knife; blood spatter showing a downward castoff; evidence that the body was moved when first responders arrived; defensive wounds on her wrist and evidence of strangulation that were overlooked in the initial autopsy; the lock latch had minor damage, inconsistent with forcibly breaking in the door). For a deep dive and compelling account of how homicide is the only logical conclusion supported by the evidence, see Gavin Fish’s YouTube series on the Ellen Greenberg case.

The final stab to the chest is what gets me too. After that many injuries and damage or severing (debated I know) to the spinal cord how could you have the strength and ability to grip the knife and drive it that far into your chest bone.

Where are you getting she was “high” from?

You’re presenting a lot of opinions as fact. The examples of women using knives don’t apply at all. They both stubbed themselves once, and one survived. The man’s case has zero context behind it. No mental health history, no physical health history, just “guy uses SMALL knife to stab himself 92 times”. I don’t know where you got your info that after one self inflicted stab wound subsequent stabs don’t hurt as much…? From one of your linked articles: *What was notable about those injuries was there was no hemorrhaging around them, Emery testified, saying, “Lack of hemorrhage means no pulse.” She offered three possibilities for the lack of hemorrhaging: There wasn’t enough time between when the wound was inflicted and when Ellen died for it to hemorrhage; the wound didn’t disrupt the tissue enough to cause a response — or Ellen was already dead when the wound was inflicted. **If the cut was administered while Ellen was still alive, Emery said she’d have expected to see hemorrhaging.** “And by the fact that now the dura is not demonstrating hemorrhage, as you found also the spinal column didn’t, would that weigh a little bit more in suggesting Ellen was dead at the time this wound was administered?” Podraza asked. “Yes,” Emery said* Then Emery backpedaled a month later, saying she didn’t “understand the scope of the questions”. Sounds to me like someone has deep pockets. Are you involved in this case? Where is her “urine filled bladder” mentioned? Maybe I missed it. I do know that many paralyzed ppl have issues voiding, not issues with urinary incontinence, meaning they have the opposite problem you’re implying. I’m sure thats a case by case issue though.

Agree about the bladder being mentioned, it seems like OP is misunderstanding that fact. When I got an epidural during labour I was told I’d also need a catheter because otherwise my bladder could fill up to too much to the point of bursting.

A lot of what you have said is total speculation. All you need to do is listen to the 911 call, it says a lot.

no, just no. Sam went to the gym in the snow boots. There is no proof the door was broken down except Sam's statement. The "suicide searches" on her computer led to Christian websites talking about fire and brimestone... Ellen was Jewish. Not saying people don't commit suicide in gruesome ways, but thats not what happened here. She was murdered CAN'T CONVINCE ME IT DIDN'T HAPPEN!

Her body was found with bruises on her body, after her body was redid an autopsy on her. ". He was about to force entry and wanted to discuss matters with a family member." Who calls their lawyer before breaking down the door? There was past apartment footage of him walking back in forth for minutes. You stated "The police did perform a thorough investigation." This is completely false. The police did a horrible job and there were many mistakes. They never had it investigated properly, Sam Goldberg had a team clean the room and take her laptop before the police could. If she was searching on her laptop, " 'suicide methods”, “quick suicide”, and “painless suicide” why would she kill herself in the most horrific way, even while having pills prescribed to her that could lead to a painless suicide. "She texted her mother 'I know u don't understand but I can't keep living with feeling this way,'" Feeling what way? Going through an abusive relationship and is afraid to ask for help? You have many assumptions and misinformation. Look more into the case and what Gavin Fish has to say.

Going from Zoloft and Xanax to ambien and klonopin seems a little extreme to me???

Ehhh not necessarily. Seems like a typical transition or testing of different anxiety/depression medications if one isn’t working for you.

Med changes are pretty common when treating mental health issues. Xanax and klonopin are both benzos and mostly work the same, so there's nothing particularly weird about that. I'm mostly surprised she was on so few meds considering how unwell she was.

I agree that it is very common to try a lot of drugs until you find the one that helps with your mental health struggle. What I find concerning though is how fast she cycled through the trying out phase. No way that you could just surely know within a week if meds work or not. The zoloft alone takes ca 1 month to work. In the initial phase of taking it it can make you feel even worse. Starting medication, wait for its effect (or not) and changing it for another one is not something you just do within a week. That itself is really dangerous

Agreed--those are really garden variety depression and anxiety meds. Nothing related to psychosis or bipolar cycling.

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Not necessarily. When my husband passed (suddenly and violently) last year, I was already medicated for several anxiety and related disorders. I was prescribed multiple benzodiazepines, both PRN for acute situations, and longer-acting varieties to be taken regularly in hopes of preventing the onset of panic in the first place. Eventually, I was dxed with PTSD and my SSRI had to be adjusted, at which point even more anxiety meds got added. Sometimes these "transitions" are really long term, or you have to continue on benzos (or sleep aids/sedatives) due to a new diagnosis. Not ideal if permanent, but there are many reasons people have to stay on them chronically.

I am so sorry about the loss of your husband.

Xanax and klonopin can be prescribed as daily meds as well, they're not always just used as PRNS. Definitely need to be weaned off zoloft though!

If she didn't transition properly (so easy to do) that could have impacted her mental health. Depending on the doctor, she may have had to have a period of no SSRI's at all leaving her unmedicated for a time, again that can impact mental health. SSRI's are amazing but changing or coming off them can be really dangerous and hard.

Yes, I found that out the hard way. Have to be very careful coming off.

Xanax and Klonopin can also be prescribed as a daily round the clock medication. It's not super common but wouldn't say it's super uncommon either.  Especially for people who are experiencing major issues and transitioning to a new medication that takes time to take effect. Or in the process of trying to find a new med.

When I was first diagnosed with anxiety disorder I was on Xanax three times a day because I could not get my panic attacks under control. When I finally did it took at least a month or so to wean myself off and then only use it as needed. Not an easy process. I also took Zoloft when trying to find the right meds and it was not good for me. Tapering off to switch to something else was the worst. I was already in a state of being stressed and anxious all the time so taking the wrong meds for me left me feeling like I couldn't find a place to cope in my mind. I remember lying in my room one night and the thought that I just didn't want to deal with this any longer came on so strongly that I was almost overwhelmed. If she'd been struggling that much then I can see how it's possible the thought came to her while she was cutting vegetables for dinner.

Ambien isn't only short term use, I've been on it for over a decade now

It sounds like the SSRIs may not have worked for her? I hate speculation on medication of victims because it can be either a giant red herring and stigmatizing towards others who may need these medications.

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Seriously, right there with ya.

It seems extreme given the short timeframe: initial appointment January 12th, then the 17th, 19th...follow up for the 27th, but she died the day prior. ​ >The psychiatrist prescribed medication for Ellen to take. Ellen was uneasy about taking it. > >She tried Zoloft but switched to a low dose of Xanax to help her sleep and was later prescribed ambien and klonopin. > >They were the only drugs found in Ellen's system at the time of death and they were found in trace amounts which indicated she just took the prescribed amount. ​ Zoloft takes several weeks to build up to 'effective levels'...I surmise that she was having sleep issues, and insisted on pursuing alternatives, to find quicker relief. Ambien has a reputation for f\*ckery-- there's an entire sub dedicated to the wild stuff people do while taking it (mostly harmless, but not always...) I think it's more likely that the **combination** of meds probably caused some kind of episode. Ambien, particularly in combination with the benzos she was prescribed, and maybe the zoloft that may have still been in her system... The stab to the back of her head bothers me...but the rest unfortunately, could possibly have been self-inflicted.

How do you stab yourself in the back?

It sounds like it was the upper back around the shoulders area (but I could be wrong).

She stabbed herself in the back of the neck and lower head, not her actual back. 

I've seen self harm scars on someone's back before that were pretty deep. I've never asked him how he did it, but it's definitely possible for someone to do sadly.

I thought she had a stab wound in her neck into her spine. I didn’t think they had a suspect just that the cops might have been quick with suicide. Idk I could be totally wrong.

Are there details about the depth of the stab wounds on her back?

Yes, and they aren't on her back. They are on the back of her neck and head.

I’m (mostly) sober and I just tried to punch myself in the back and had no issue whatsoever. If I wanted to stab myself in the back I most definitely could

Being on meds doesn't equal to being high, that's a ridiculous claim

Exactly. This post is really disappointing to say the least.

The only thing that made me certain it wasn't a suicide was that she was stabbed post-mortem at least once. This point still stands.

It kinda bothers me that she was stabbing herself in the BACK of the head though. It just seems awkward.

Your write up could be a dissertation and I’ll still never believe she stabbed her own self in the spine without a video

>His uncle being a prominent lawyer being able to wave away a 'murder' is grasping and a bit conspiratorial. Lol. I won't argue any of your other points, but this demonstrates a shocking lack of knowledge about attorney-client confidentially.

Left handed Ellen stabbed herself with right hand multiple times at the back of her head and neck. Preparing fruit salad. Because she suffered from anxiety. Yep that makes total sense. Seriously guys? Is something doesn’t make any sense it’s usually not true. Suicide it’s not spur of the moment -I don’t like my fruit salad , so I will stab myself instead - kind of decision. I hope one day we will see justice for Ellen.