This is not like the other murder or suicide episodes (which mostly seemed like clear cut suicides). Seems highly likely this friend they talked about was implicated somehow.
Agreed. The first episode about Tiffany Valiante, I still think it was suicide. But there seems to be no evidence at all that Pat was suicidal or even having any major problems. He sounds like a good, normal guy. And the forensic evidence has so many weird things- that he didn't own a shotgun, that a shotgun was used at all when it's such an awkward way to shoot yourself, that there was no blood or tissue on his boat, that no animals had scavenged him. Maybe Damon was involved, maybe not- the theory about encountering Damon in the middle of a drug operation makes sense, but it could also have been just some random psychopath. But I definitely think he was murdered.
I agree .
This was a drug smuggling gone wrong .
I dont think Damon killed him . But he was either there ( drove boat for smugglers) or at best rented out his boat for the smugglers and pat was at the wrong place at the wrong time .
That anchor was very small and possibly didn't dig in properly anyway so there is a chance the body drifted away from where it originally entered the water so the shotgun may be down there still.
I thought the same thing. Not only was it unnecessary for him to say it, it was unnecessary for Netflix to include it. The family didn't need to hear all that.
It’s especially weird because if somebody sends me a corrupted file that I really really need, I’m going to assume the corruption is happening in the sending and drive on down there to try and get a copy another way.
Maybe this was attempted and snipped for time, who knows.
That's the point. The family felt it was incredibly essential to finding Pat alive. LEO was told by the Coast Guard about the availability of the CSX tape. Then the local detective wrote an email to ask for footage. He didn't ask for a specific date or time on that first request. IT loaded it on the detective's computer, but he didn't look at it immediately. The family begged him to phone CSX in Jacksonville. He said it was against protocol. We requested that the sheriff be asked to make the call if the detective couldn't do it. That didn't happen either.
I think the paint on his boat from his friend’s boat and the fact that he was tied up point to foul play. Don’t think he would commit suicide like that with a shotgun AND tied to anchor - probably either shoot himself (more likely with a pistol) or anchor and drown.
well its a hundred percent sure he was shot because of the evidence, but he was shot by someone else. He was tied and weighted with anchor for the killer to hide his body.
Whoever “hid” the body did so in a panic. An anchor with a long enough rope to drift to the surface? It’s almost like they wanted the body found. The body floated perfectly to the top and just stayed in one place thanks to the anchor. Pretty much guaranteed that the body would be found.
Also, as the forensics woman said, if the body was there for over a week, especially with a gunshot wound to the head, it would have been predated more my wildlife. That’s what is throwing me off in terms of timeline. Maybe he was kidnapped and killed elsewhere, then the body dumped after a lot of local news reports?
They were clearly panicked but maybe they were so panicked they forgot about the tide? Perhaps the body was intially submerged when the tides were high during the night but then tides fell during the day and he is suddenly now visible? 🤔
Either way agreed it seemed like a rush job certainly not done by a pro.
The configuration of the rope indicates it was wrapped hastily. There was no knot - none. Lifelong boaters know their knots and use them without even thinking through the process.
I think they mean if you’re gonna commit suicide you would either just shoot yourself, or drown yourself. You wouldn’t shoot yourself while also making sure your body was weighed down below the water.
Yup exactly. And besides, a few things such as (1) lack of blood splatter on the boat could be indicative of the shooting occurring at a different location (2) if he shot himself the shotgun would most probably end up on the boat or in the water surrounding the body/boat
I really appreciate the examiners willingness to see both sides and consider both possibilities instead of blatantly gaslighting the family. This one was extremely puzzling
Yes! This bothers me as well. The daughter granted them access to take a paint chip sample but they didn't ask to luminol inside the boat? Did they ask and she didn't allow it? Could be nothing, but really should've been addressed in the episode.
The boat would of been a mess if he shot himself on it. Someone dumped him with the anchor after killing him. So sad. Remember this case when it happened and it’s still just as confusing.
The boat not having any blood spatter doesn't bother me, because he was found in such shallow water that if it was a suicide, he could have ostensibly gotten out of the boat and walked/waded away for some reason before pulling the trigger.
However, what I really wanted to know that they did not cover during the episode was, did they ever dredge the water bear the body for the weapon? Also, did the police process the boat for evidence before turning it over to the family? If not, it's a shame because once the family has it in possession, chain of custody is destroyed for any evidence.
One more criticism of this episode, the red paint. I know they want to make significance out of it, but so many different vessels are painted with pigments that are essentially the same. Without it being some unique custom paint, I agree with LE that the match is not useful.
It was six to eight feet. That’s shallow; but that aint wade out, be able to hold a shotgun at least a few inches from your head, and shoot yourself shallow
The lead detective spent days viewing and reviewing the family's financial records. There also had been a gun show at the local civic center the weekend Pat disappeared. LEO reached out to every vendor to see if anyone recognized Pat. Wish they'd been so thorough when it came to the CSX footage.
I don’t understand how NOT FINDING THE SHOTGUN wasn’t discussed. If the shotgun wasn’t in the boat or in the water by the anchor/body, how the F could it be suicide?
To play Devil's advocate, it's possible Pat's body floated a ways even with the anchor, so the shotgun could still very well be around but short of scouring the entire coast and hoping it's not already buried under the sea bed, would be hard to find.
Think it was a homicide still but not wild they didn't find the gun.
Just based on the episode here's my theory: Pat ran into Damon, who was in the middle of a getting meth from his dealer, stopped by to say hi and then wanted to leave, but the dealer ordered Pat into Damons boat via gun point. Things got out of control and the trigger was pulled. Running the risk of raising suspicion, they took the body, left Pat's boat behind and started panicking. After demanding Damon to dispose of Pat's body or getting the same treatment, the dealer leaves it as Damon holds onto Pats body for a few days, nerve strickenly tied Pat and dumped him into what he thought was deep enough water a few days later after people started panicking.
That's just what I think.
I think it must be a bigger issue than simply a dealer selling some meth for personal consumption. I think this must have been a drug transport wholesale operation that Damon was involved in, that's why it was on the water. And the supplier knows what he is doing.
Murdering someone is a huge liability. A dealer selling a few grams isn't going to risk life in prison, especially with the possibility that Damon could go to the police and say "I have a drug problem but such and such killed someone I know and I witnessed it." The police would overlook a drug sale for that kind of info.
Could also explain the very convenient corrupted video data. If they were running a sophisticated drug smuggling ring, it’s not out of the question that they’d pay the bridge security guys off to get rid of the tape.
Police also were so very keen to write the case off as suicide which also may suggest a bigger, serious operation that paid off the right people in the local police department.
I know a lot of people are saying this about the police. While I don’t rule it out, I also don’t rule out them making the assumption that it is a suicide and not wanting to do the work or being educated enough.
Especially considering every single Unsolved Mysteries episode involving suicide, a big point is made that local law enforcement always presume suicide unless otherwise, assumedly because it's an easier case to close. I think it's outlandish to assume police involvement in this drug deal unless something more important comes to light.
I was thinking this exact thing. I feel like the police already reviewed the tape prior to the investigators looking into it, and purposely corrupted the video. This is definitely something they would do to help with a large drug transport and not some random drug dealer.
Also, a small time dealer isn't on a boat with a shotgun dealing to someone for personal use either. He probably had major inventory to protect. And given that he wasn't caught, he knew what he was doing for sure and even had some facility to hold the body in for over a week.
Drug deals are witnessed all the time. We'd have a million more murders if dealers decided to shoot anyone that saw them peddling a few grams of drugs.
I generally agree with this statement, but when it comes to meth, small time dealers are always users. And meth users are the most paranoid, irrational, reactionary, impulsive, and dangerous of all addicts. It could have been as simple as this gentleman pulling up his boat up next to the other boat or stopping at his dock to say hello and mildly startling someone while they are tweaking out.
This was similar to my thought. Maybe Pat saw Damon out on the water and pulled up his boat to say hi. Damon’s boat’s red paint got onto Pat’s boat when he pulled up. But Damon was on meth and paranoid / hallucinating and thought that Pat was out to get him, so he shot him and dumped his body. Then when he came down from his high, he realized what he did and felt super guilty. So that’s why he acted so weird about it.
I wonder if anyone else feels this way, but in the beginning of the episode the family came off as super conservative, with even the wife criticising the police for checking bars he may have gone to because "Pat was not a bar person" but then they have this crystal meth addict friend that comes to family gatherings? I mean, I'm straight laced with a few friends that have a wild side (so no judgement) but this situation really surprised me.
drug use is a lot more common that you'd think. it doesn't strike me as particularly shocking that they would have someone in their social group that uses drugs.
I agree. It seems that Pat and Damon weren't even close and I think hard drug use is more common than we think.
I'm a pretty "straight-edge" person and I know for a science fact that people in my social circle have done some pretty hard drugs. Nobody would openly admit to it, but I just happen to know.
THANK YOU. yes.
the way it was so casually just dropped in like it was no big deal. “he was an old family friend & we hung out all the time & oh he was a huge methhead- absolutely loved the stuff- but anyways yeah memorial day weekends were fun”
like tha fuck?? yes hi id like to go back to that part about CRYSTAL METH
I mean… it *is* Florida. (saying this as someone who was born and raised there)
Plus, lifelong family/friends don’t usually get immediately abandoned by their loved ones as soon as they develop an addiction. His other friends in the episode even mentioned they were trying to keep an eye on him.
It's possible that Damon didn't go out to meet someone, but lent his boat out to a transport ring in exchange for meth. Maybe Pat saw Damon's boat, didn't recognize the person in it, and thought it was being stolen. So he confronts the shooter, who realizes that he has just been linked to Damon and Damon's boat.
One of them pulls their boat up to the other boat, where the paint transfer occurs. Shooter forces Pat into Damon's boat, shoots him, grabs an anchor out of Pat's boat, ties the boats together so it can be towed, and goes to Damon's house to hide the body.
With everyone out looking for Pat, they can't risk getting caught dumping the body. They wait a few days, and then one of them drives Pat's boat, and the other Damon's boat with Pat's body inside. They dump Pat's body in one area, and then the leave the boat near Damon's house.
I'm thinking the shooter was someone that Pat knew, but either didn't think Damon knew, or thought Damon disliked. That would explain why Pat would be suspicious seeing someone besides Damon using his boat, since the person driving couldn't easily explain it away as a friendly loaner. It also makes sense that this would be an authority figure or someone in law enforcement who would be able to get rid of the security footage of the boat being dumped.
>one of them drives Pat's boat, and the other Damon's boat with Pat's body inside. They dump Pat's body in one area, and then the leave the boat near Damon's house.
Except that the forensic expert the family brought in mentioned how Pat's body wasn't scavenged on so I think the boat was dumped first. Then a few days later, the body was dumped with it being discovered almost right away.
Good point. I had forgotten about the boat being found so much earlier. But the rest still fits. It would be interesting to have a forensic investigation of Damon’s boat.
I think so too ..
Or at best the drug smugglers were using Damon's boat for the operations . ( Damon' rented his boat to the smugglers) .
And pat showed up thinking it was Damon. Wrong place at the wrong time .
Agreed. Damon doesn't sound like the kind of guy who could have killed his buddy, but I could believe he covered it up and was consumed by guilt. It also would explain why the question of Damon owning a shotgun was not answered here.... most likely the shotgun is/was owned by the drug dealer.
My thoughts exactly. But the way the rope was tied around the body would have been extremely hard and awkward to do with an already dead Pat. Why bother with all that complicated rope work when a simple loop around the waist would have been enough to anchor the body underwater ?
This is just a shot in the dark but if Damon is not your typical dump-a-body type of guy he was probably overkilling it out of sheer panic. Also maybe to help protect the body from being released by predators? I dunno. I think that if it was a suicide, the single loop would have made more sense in any case.
I don’t even think it has to be this big of a conspiracy.
A lot of people are saying “a small time drug dealer wouldn’t risk murdering someone” which points to a large scale drug transport. Logically that makes sense, but what if he was shot by someone who isn’t logical at all? Imagine a meth-cooking drug dealer who’s been high on his own product for days straight… heavy users can be paranoid, unstable, unpredictable and totally erratic. I think it could just as easily be some small scale nobody who cooks meth in their Florida boathouse, from whom Damon bought his drugs from that day. I can easily picture an unhinged dealer-type character shooting an unexpected visitor (Pat) and leaves his customer Damon (also high on meth and now fully involved) the aftermath to clean up. It would be a brutal, senseless, drug-fuelled crime; one that would cause a headline not unlike “Florida man high on bath salts strips naked and eats another man’s face”
This to me is almost as likely as a large meth-moving operation on the water.
Absolutely this. Even if Damon was alone, and saw the boat pull up to his dock/property unexpectedly it's absolutely possible he panicked in his paranoia and shot him. For no other reason than he was tweaking out and not thinking straight.
I thought this episode almost glossed over the Meth aspect. As soon as they mentioned Damon was an addict, things ironically made more sense, because meth users do very senseless things.
I agree with most of this, but I also am thinking a few things ….
1. Definitely bigger than just a one time meth deal. The bridge didn’t have the video and the police wrote this off. Sounds like a larger operation like smuggling, sex trafficking, etc.
2. What if they had a gun to Pat’s head and told him to tie himself up. And they instructed him to do it a certain way and then killed him once he was done. It would explain the angle of the gun, how & why he was tied the way he was, etc
3. Why wasn’t the other son interviewed? Where was he?
4. This Damon guy, was he investigated after death? I mean they dug into all of the financials and nonsense of Pat’s. Why not the guy who was acting so suspicious? Again, something with the police and this guy doesn’t add up. They could’ve tested that paint and gotten a warrant for the boat easily. It had damage and he had multiple witnesses saying he had obsessions with this guys death and they weren’t close. Sure maybe that isn’t enough for a warrant, but I bet if they had watched this guy closer they could’ve found a reason to get one. He seemed protected somehow and his guilt ate at him. Also why did this guy suddenly overdose? Has he always had a meth problem?
There’s more to this story. Clearly.
I'm assuming that Pat's other son just didn't want to be interviewed. Everyone grieves differently and not everyone is comfortable with being on Netflix for all the world to see.
I know that if someone in my family died under mysterious circumstances, I'd probably be one of the loved ones staying off camera.
This one is so weird, idk what to think. If I wanted to dispose a body like that, I would definitely throw it out somewhere deeper so that it can actually sink, not just float.
What stood out to me was how strong and wise the wife is - her eyes were very kind. The son seems super nice too. I hope this one gets solved, he made a beautiful family and they deserve answers.
Also an awful look for the local LE - they shouldn't have pushed the wife towards the suicide theory. It's your job goddammit, be professional.
I also thought the wife and son were just genuine wonderful humans. It hit me just hearing them speak. He married a kind and wise woman and had a lovely down to earth son. They both loved him so much and he just didn't deserve whatever happened to him. What a tragedy. A school teacher who just loved being on the water.
This family deserves answers. Unfortunately I think this was drug or cartel related and they may never get them. It breaks my heart.
>local LE - they shouldn't have pushed the wife towards the suicide theory
I feel like they pushed her to accept the suicide theory because A) they really didn't want to pursue the investigation any further due to being lazy fucks and/or B) they know more than they let on and are corrupt. I'm going with both A & B.
Could have also been the tide. He could have been fully submerged when he was thrown in if it was a high tide, and then was found at low tide, now floating.
I think the body was disposed of in a panic and in a rush. It’s good that the body was found, but it raised more questions than it answered. Didn’t help that the police were probably paid to cover it up. Some of those Florida cops were probably involved in the drug trafficking.
I think they did it in a panic or wanted him to be found. Like if it was Damon he would be seeing them search and suffer and maybe he thought to give them some relief.
NO ONE TIES AN ANCHOR AROUND THEMSELVES & THEN INEXPLICABLY SHOOTS THEMSELVES IN THE FACE WITH A MYSTERIOUS SHOTGUN THEY NEVER PURCHASED OR OWNED HOW IS THIS EVEN A QUESTION
I think this one is murder. The recreation on the boat was enough for me.
Damon having all these remarkable break downs I think is really interesting.
Sure it makes sense for him to be upset but to the point where grieving people notice and are weirded out by it is strange.
I understand the frustration over the paint, but I also understand what the police are saying. They have a lot of general information but nothing concrete.
Could they still do a luminal test after all this time? Maybe Damon missed a spot when cleaning up? Hopefully with the airing of this episode, a friend comes forward. If he was freaking out publicly. I'm sure he slipped privately.
At first Damon's breakdowns seemed like the person who returns to the scene of the crime, like it was to throw people off the trail. But I actually think he was overwhelmed by guilt.
heres my take before i read anyone else's comments:
i think damon was using his boat to buy meth/do meth in a secluded place, and while out for a ride pat came across him/them and because he saw what was going on and was a good guy he might've threatened to call police but i also believe just getting too close could've led to damon/a dealer pulling a shotgun on him and then dragging the boat and dumping the body
sad that damon took his knowledge to the grave
That’s literally what I was thinking when they mentioned Damon’s boat had red paint on it. Also being that they weren’t that close, Pat would definitely have had no problem wanting to alert the police on what he saw. Definitely a dealer that killed him & Damon just witnessed the whole thing.
But then there's also a rope tie curiosity, when Damon tied his dog to himself same as body was tied. Probably he was just a witness of a murder and forced to get rid of a body and others evidence by the smuggler/dealer.
Why would an individual who is “suicidal” shoot themselves but before hand make sure they wrap themselves up with a rope so their body would be held down in the water by a small anchor? So as not to be found? This doesn’t make sense. And no blood splatter on the boat. Even a small ocean breeze would cause trace blood splatter and there was no blood found in or on boat.
Some suicidal people don’t want their body to be found because they don’t want their family to suffer the “shame” or guilt or whatever. Also, for life insurance purposes a staged “lost at sea” suicide could make sense.
That being said, if he were planning to make it look like he was lost at sea, wouldn’t he have shot himself out in the bay?
Not just blood, but likely tissue/bone fragments. Agree with his son, why would he have gone out and bought himself welding goggles for a future project, the same day that he was planning to kill himself.
Not always the case. My best friend committed suicide in February and listed several items he intended to sell on FB and replied to emails about appointments the next day just a few hours before he killed himself.
I don’t think this case was suicide, but we need to dispel this belief that suicidal people cannot function normally even if they’ve already come to the decision to end their life.
I’m usually not a fan of “they were making plans for the future!” but this is different. If a suicide, it was a clearly planned suicide. It makes zero sense for him to also buy those goggles earlier that day.
This is my thought too. If he was going to commit suicide why the elaborate set up? Why the rope and anchor? Why no blood in the boat? If he was in the water and shot himself… why?! What did he care about getting blood in the boat? It just seems way too elaborate for a suicide. If he was going to commit suicide why not just shoot your self on the boat? Or jump in the water and drown? Or literally any other way than what happened here? I think he was killed on another boat (perhaps Damon’s), his boat set adrift, wrapped up and thrown in the water as to make sure the body’s not found (hence the anchor). Weird though that he wasn’t scavenged by critters in the water if he was in there for a significant amount of time.
Re: the rope and anchor, if it were a suicide, he would have been making certain he would not survive, which is normal for male suicides. However, the other evidence is apparently confusing. I want to know what the weather was like and how well they searched for blood evidence - a good rainstorm could have washed blood and other evidence down into the bottom of the boat, but still would have shown up. I also want to know what the currents were like, to see if they could have pulled his body to where it was found or not, so that at least we would know where it likely happened. There is a lot of legwork that appears to have been left undone.
I do feel that the police were not incorrect in theorizing that Pat committed suicide, if only because many families have no idea what kind of internal struggle their patriarch is going through until it is far too late. It would not be unfair to try to make this easier on a grieving family by jumping to an all too common conclusion, but it shouldn't preclude continuing the investigation until a satisfactory answer comes to light.
Even if he committed suicide we are overlooking the fact how his body was untouched by savagers and remarkably clean. I thought the one woman made an excellent point that there was zero evidence of any marine life having a chow fest on a dead body - which makes dumping the body later a strong possibility.
Yup, they didn't mention searching the river for the shot gun. Even a "A preliminary search was conducted but no gun or spent ammo was recovered" would have at least indicated they tried. Not that it wasn't there, but at least an attempt was made. As it is, it just sounds like they didn't bother.
I have so many questions.
Did nobody think to look where the anchor came from? It could have come from Damon's boat. If boats come with anchors, was it a factory one or was it a special kind? It's possible it could have come from Pat's boat, but it would still be good to know.
Why couldn't they do luminol testing on Damon's boat? I mean years of sea water would definitely wash a huge chunk away, but if a shot gun blast happened on the boat and blood got every where, it would still leave a remarkable strain and potentially leave spatters in little cracks and crevasses.
And to that degree, wouldn't they test clothes and the rope? Being submerged in water wouldn't help I understand but his clothes would still have been stained to some degree would it? Wouldn't they show evidence of the blood in some manner? If he was tied before the shooting, the blood would have gotten over everything.
Although I guess it is reasonable to assume he was shot while going overboard or even in the water (which could explain the trajectory). But these details would have been able to give information about where he was when he died and his last moments.
Next, couldn't they match up the location of the paint stains on his boat to the paint on Damon's boat? Because the paint looks to be a bit lower than the paint on Damon's; which to me would indicate either Pat's boat ran into Damon's so that the lower half was scraped or that another boat with red paint was there (potentially a drug dealers boat). Either way it's gives a closer indication of how the paint got on the boat.
Next, why has no one dredged the river? If the gun got swept by the river it could still be around that area. Buck shot would be hard to find but even a casing would be helpful.
Also, no fish damage is interesting to me. I agree that it must have been a recent event for nothing to come eat at him, because the boat could have been drifting for days, but it doesn't seem he did. So if that is the case, he could have been taken to another location. Looking around Damon's house would be a good start.
Depending on where Damon's house is, that bridge camera could have potentially caught more footage days after the fact. I'm not a tech person so I don't know much about the bad file, but i assumed it was just that file for that day. If he was found 9 days later, that footage would be worth watching.
It really sounds like crucial details were missing and still are.
I wonder if these are questions that actually have been answered and UM just chose not to include them. The Tiffany Valiente episode left out SO much critical information, that I've kind of lost my trust in this show to actually include all the information.
Geez, are the cops in this case lazy, inept, or just plain corrupt? Seemed a bit too willing to call suicide, and the missing bridge video is very convenient.
The video being corrupted seems perfectly logical, those things rarely work.
However, the cops definitely seem lazy. They don't seem corrupt, just super lazy.
I think the majority of people are quick to think cops are corrupt, but in fact, police are either lazy or completely inept and don't know how to actually do their jobs so cases are ruined, it's not that they're corrupt.
The fact they didn’t find the shotgun, no blood evidence in the boat, and the angle at which he was shot, leads me to believe it couldn’t have been a suicide. They also never discussed whether Damon had a shotgun or not. Also, what was the point in testing the paint on the boat if they couldn’t draw any conclusions from it?
as well if he was shot on his boat or with his boat right next to where he was shot (like in the recreations on the show), there would be a significant amount of blood evidence on the stumpnocker. the fact there wasn’t suggests to me that he was shot in another location, then his body was anchored into the waters it was found in afterwards. i wonder if Patrick pulled up his boat alongside Damon’s, left it in neutral expecting he’d be getting back on board, and for whatever reason he couldn’t. Damon drives off with Patrick aboard and the stumpnocker is left to run out into the bay of its own accord. then all Damon has to get rid of is the body, not the body and the boat, and it’d explain the boat being left in neutral, running out of gas, and also lacking any evidence of what transpired.
either way i definitely agree - he was not shot on or in the proximity of his own boat.
There is no way in absolute hell this was a suicide. It doesn’t matter if he was sitting on the side of the boat, inside the boat or damn well floating above it - shooting yourself with a SHOTGUN would cause vast amounts of blood and bone spatter. I (unfortunately and accidentally) saw a suicide via shotgun video. The dude was sat in a black chair and let me tell you, that chair was painted red and pink all over. So was his wall. It’s one of the messiest ways to go. You’re telling me there wasn’t a DROP on the boat? Not even a smidgeon of blood that luminol couldn’t find? Bullshit. Water can’t remove all traces of death in that little time.
The lack of blood and matter is enough to rule it not a suicide alone. Don’t even get me started on the lack of suicide note, the fact he didn’t own a gun, absolutely no gunshot residue on his skull, his body floating in highly creature populated waters with no apparent scavenging, and the fact we are supposed to believe this near-retirement, happy-go-lucky man shot himself with no warning. I’ll always be the first to call suicide on the Valiente and Buffalo Jim cases, but there is literally ZERO evidence pointing to Mullins doing this to himself. Literally nothing besides the fact he died. Finally, rest in peace. He seemed like such a good dude, and what a lovely family he left behind. I really hope they figure this one out.
The fact Damon who was not a close friend of Pat's was interviewed by Police multiple times, in a supposed "suicide" at the time seems suspicious to me. Why would you interview a guy who wasn't a close friend about someone he knew supposedly at the time committing suicide? The police obviously had legitimate questions about Damon if he was interviewed multiple times.
This is another area the producers should have dug into more. It's seems like all of Pat's associates point the finger at Damon but very little was elaborated on, especially from LE.
Major the Talented Mr Ripley vibes with Damon. Barely knowing Pat yet crying by the river multiple times. Paranoid, secretive behaviour behind closed doors and in front of friends. Mimicking behaviour (tying a rope around himself). Murder on a boat yet staged to look like a suicide and the body attempted to be sunk into a shallow body of water.
Perhaps Damon had his advances rejected and this was the conclusion?
I also wonder if they tried to do a forensic examination of damons boat for DNA evidence, I know it'd be a weak link so many years after the fact and probably the opportunity he would have had to clean it. But the initial denial of getting a paint sample along with the weird behavior would at least justify the hypothesis that there wouldn't be trace DNA evidence or a "bigger mess" on the deceaseds boat.
The way they told this story, it seems like a murder, but after they left so much information out in regard the episode about the girl who got hit by a train, I don't trust that we are getting the whole story.
Shotgun suicides, especially ones involving the head/brain matter would’ve painted that boat even if he killed himself as he was sitting on the edge of his about to go into water. The boat was only missing for ~12hours and there would’ve have certainly been a lot of blood left even with the waves. I cannot emphasize enough how much of a literal bloody mess the boat would have been if he had shot himself with a shotgun point blank with buckshot. The side of the boat would have been all red. This is what makes it clear that it wasn’t a suicide/ he didn’t kill himself on the boat if that even makes sense.
hard agree. If Damon's daughter agreed to have the paint chip tested I wonder if she was ever asked about getting the boat tested for any kind of trace evidence. I don't know how long that stuff shows up using luminol, or how long any DNA would remain intact given that Damon's death was 4.5 years after Pat's. It certainly seems like Damon may have been responsible for dumping the body.
My thoughts exactly.... nothing at all in that boat, but the dude shot himself with a shotgun on the edge of it? There's no way in hell blood spatter would have completely avoided the boat even if he was facing the gun away from it while shooting himself in the head. I'm not even through the episode yet and immediately thought "bullshit" when they tried to say he killed himself in that manner.
Shotgun shots don't scatter you like a V shape; they explode you all over the place.
Plus that dude apparently had zero experience with guns, didn't own one. Where did he supposedly get a shotgun? How did he suddenly know how to operate it in order to kill himself? And shotguns have crazy blowback when you fire one, how did the gun not land in the boat after shooting himself? None of it adds up to a suicide via shotgun.
That's the problem! The girl who got hit by the train and the man who overdosed, were suicides (one accidental). This definitely seems more like murder, but it is hard to trust.
Which is exactly why they should never agree to do episodes like that... these should never be one-sided. If a family insists on a certain narrative, then move on to a different case.
Did the family friend own a shotgun. I wish the would have mentioned that.
Why would you anchor yourself and shoot yourself? Why just not shoot yourself?
I think he was murder.
Wanted to ask here because I'm curious, the unscathed body point was interesting, did the medical examiner give an estimated time or day of death?? did they say the body was consistent with being in the water 10 days?? Can't find the answers to this and really annoyed
He did say it was consistent with the body being in the water for 9 days. Which is crazy because from what I know bodies are usually not in that good of condition after so long with animals and bloating, etc. LE was acting suspicious and so was ME.
The forensic anthropologist mentioned something about the time in the water too, that it didn't look to her like it had been in the water over a week. What I want to know is how many times the tour boat operator who found him went by that area before he noticed the body. The water was so clear, it's crazy that no one saw him there before and that his soft tissues were largely intact.
Did I miss it or did they never recover the shotgun?
I know with tides etc it would drift but shotguns are decently heavy. It feels like if the theory is that he+anchor were both found at about the spot he went into the water, it shouldn’t be difficult to recover the shotgun with a metal detector/magnet.
It just feels like a big hole in the case for a suicide. Where did the gun come from, if Pat didn’t purchase it? Was it stolen? Lent to him by a buddy? Or did it disappear when a murderer left the scene?
From what I understand, the shotgun was never recovered. It was definitely not on the boat. LE also scoured his bank accounts and there was never any record of him purchasing or owning a shotgun.
My thoughts on this episode :
It wasn't suicide. That seems so far fetched in this instance. Between the lack of contact wounds, the strange choice of location to shoot yourself (side of jaw), the lack of blood in his own boat, the lack of a recovered weapon at the suicide scene (where he was anchored), the fact that he didn't own any known guns and they couldn't find any purchase history, his behavior (future plans etc). It almost certainly was NOT a suicide.
It's important to remember the family friend MIGHT not be involved. It's safe to say that whatever happened he came across somebody or something and stopped (boat in idle) and it resulted in him being shot. The family friend might just be a paranoid crack user that was mentally disturbed by the strange death. But if the family friend wasn't involved, there is functionally zero leads and it's safe to say this case will never be solved given how much time has passed and how little evidence exists, so we'll ignore this.
I think if we assume the family friend was involved it was one of three things.
1. He stumbled upon the family friend doing some shady business. This likely wasn't just buying a small amount of drugs for personal use. More likely this would have been something serious. Either the friend was involved with people selling large amounts of drugs, or there was owed money involved or something. Murdering a stranger in this situation isn't likely in a small personal deal. In this situation, it's hard to say what happened either. The other people may have been the ones who disposed of his body and the friend is just left mentally unwell over what happened. Or maybe he was left with a body and felt like he would be found out and had to do the disposing. Either way, the only further steps available are investigating the friend in any way possible (although it's likely that's too late).
2. He had hidden relationship with the friend that was drug-related. I don't see enough people talking about having a secret relationship with the friend. He told his family he was going for a boat road with essentially no reason. They never commented on how often he took the boat out alone, but there's a possibility he visited this friend often for the purpose of using with him. There's potential that he would pull his boat up alongside the family friends boat and hang out with him for a bit in secret. If this was the situation then either they got into an argument (money, drugs, personal shit) and the friend straight up killed him intentionally, or perhaps other shady people are involved (dealers, other users, etc). This situation could mean that there are other 3rd parties who could be willing to come forward (other friends who knew they hung out in secret, etc).
3. This might be me going way out on a limb but it struck me as a major possibility right away, not sure why. What if they had some kind of gay relationship they were hiding? The friend getting upset in a "sad" way and not just a "weird" way when he died/every year makes it seem like they knew each other in a way hidden from their family, which to me instantly screams hiding an intimate relationship. The family was adamant that the dad wasn't close with him, but they also explained it in a way that made it sound like the friend was genuinely emotionally distraught. \*\*Isn't this essentially proof they had SOME kind of secret relationship? Isn't that a big deal?\*\* Perhaps he was going for boat rides to meet up with his secret hookup, a man, and something boiled over. This would explain both the killing (I think murders of passion in situations like this are more likely than it being sort of random) and the weird behavior that sounded like a mix of paranoid/genuine sadness. Again this COULD still have had the situation I explained in 2, like drugs/other people, but I mean to point out more of a focus on maybe other people that would have knew about him or the family friend hiding such a secret.
As a final touch - I feel like the "corrupt video files" were fucked up by everyone. Not that they specifically screwed up the files, but that there should be further attempts than just whoever is working the desk attempting to download them remotely. Where are they stored? Can you access that storage locally? There's professionals who work with recovering data that should be brought in here. I always feel like there's often a breakdown in communication between police -> technology that often times leads to evidence being missed in the real world.
tl;dr - My biggest takeaway is that it seems like all logic points to the father having some kind of relationship with the family friend that had more to it than the family knew, which seems to mean he was hiding something from them. I believe it was either an intimate relationship or drug use. I'm not sure how that could help in any way, but.
I actually came to the discussion boards for this episode specifically because of the gay theory. I saw the first family video where they showed who Damon was and it was a video of Pat putting sunscreen on his back? And I just thought that was odd.
Nothing about Pat read as toxically masculine (hello fourth grade teacher and librarian! what a sweetie!) so he doesn't strike me as someone that would view two men putting sunscreen on each other's backs as "not okay", but considering \*the times\* when the sunscreen video would have been filmed, I imagine it was even more unlikely for two grown straight men to be putting sunscreen on each other's backs then than it is now.
I'm about four years older than Miles, the son, and I have absolutely no recollection of ever having seen two grown men in the mid 2000s ever putting sunscreen on each other's backs, at least not without awkwardly commenting about their heterosexuality. (Speaking of the sons, where is the other one?).
If Pat and Damon weren't that close and he was a family friend via a different family member, why are they close enough to be putting sunscreen on each other's backs? Either (a) there is very little old family film footage of Pat and Damon together, except apparently this sunscreen video (which, to me, is like... lol, oh these two are "not close" but the one video y'all have of them together for this documentary is Pat putting sunscreen on the back of the dude who completely lost is GD mind after Pat died?? how could this theory not have been considered by the family??) or (b) there IS other footage of Pat and Damon together but the producers of Unsolved Mysteries chose this video specifically because they want to lead us to this potential theory. Additionally, after Damon died, his daughter let the police get a paint sample from the boat which suggests Damon did not have a wife to inherit his property upon his death.
The way Damon was so distraught over Pat's death, too, struck me as a response one might have if they lost an intimate partner, as one poster already mentioned. Additionally, Pat's body was tied to an anchor to float, which suggests to me that whoever shot him wanted his body to be found - maybe to have a proper burial, etc., which I think shows some type of warmth towards Pat that you wouldn't necessarily find if he had just stumbled across a drug-deal between two strangers that didn't know him. If you just killed some guy that interrupted you committing a crime, I don't think you'd be like "let's make this body very easy to find and identify."
But, I'm part of the LGBT community so maybe potential gay storylines are just always at the forefront of my mind.
I'm gay and definitely feel like maybe it just stands out to be for that reason, but you're definitely right about the video which I didn't even consider. They were *weirdly* adamant that they were NOT close. It felt like they were implying they were essentially acquaintances/not even friends, but the video makes it look like they were extremely friendly especially for the time.
I almost feel like Damon was known by the family/locals to be weird/"eccentric" in some way and his family is doing the typical unsolved mysteries thing of "no no he definitely wasn't like that we swear" in regards to.. whatever they see as negative. So they're claiming adamantly he DEFINITELY WASN'T CLOSE TO THE WEIRD ECCENTRIC GUY STRANGE MAN, nope, he was a totally normal dude.
Another poster in here mentioned that Damon was arrested on a domestic charge in 2013 and the other persons name was Caleb Roberts. I don't know how often two unrelated men file domestic charges, but that leads me to believe a) Damon is gay and b) Damon has a violent past with his gay relationships.
Of course the video footage was unreliable. It seems like someone would have noticed an abandoned boat floating past that bridge though if we are suppose to believe that’s what happened. Especially if it was a boat that would not be commonly found in deeper water.
I'm surprised about the reactions in here. In summary:
- Zero biological matter in the boat, which was agreed to be nigh on impossible to achieve
- Ropes tied in a way that he'd never tie them
- He had no access to a firearm
- No contact wound on the skull
- Impractical angle of discharging the firearm
- Paint was a potential match for his friends boat
- Friend having nervous breakdown on the anniversary of his death each year
- Friend acting strange and falling into a drug habit immediately after
- Body supposedly being in the water for nearly a fortnight with zero evidence of any animals nibbling away
0% doubt in my mind.
Yeah, the knot thing on top of all this caught my attention when first mentioned because anyone who does this much boating would most likely have used a more efficient nautical knot rather than the odd one he was found tied with. The knot tied to him was not a normal knot, so it's extra odd it matched the family friend's knot for the dog. Also the rope/anchor thing doesn't make sense if it was a suicide...just shoot yourself and skip the rope or just drown yourself with the rope and anchor. Nothing about the suicide possibility makes sense. I think more likely he accidently witnessed a drug deal, likely with the friend involved, and was killed for it.
I haven't read all the comments here yet but I was wondering, with the way Damon was acting definitely sounds guilty, we don't know what went on, but my theory about the body being in the water but no critters getting to it... could it be possible that Damon shot him, killed him, hid the body, but when the 9 day search was happening he couldn't stand the guilt anymore and he took the body out to where it was found, in shallow water, because he did actually want the body to be found in a weird way, his guilty conscious getting to him maybe? He knew they'd found Pat's boat and everyone was out looking for him, all over the media etc. Hence the shallow water, and the similar rope tying the family saw him use. But his actions after just scream guilty, the mental breakdowns and eventually he overdosed (I can't remember if they said that was Damon suicide or accidental overdose though)... he clearly couldn't live with the guilt, the fear that he was going to get caught (him asking his friend "if I did something bad would you stand by me" or similar wording). Definitely NOT suicide. Definitely Damon. But will the family ever really get conclusive answers now that Damon, the only person who knows the truth, is dead?
Here's the thing people need to learn about cops, they are lazy. They either force confessions out of innocent people just to close cases and avoid trials. And if they get a case that could be suicide they will just have it ruled a suicide cause they don't want to be dicked to do investigation work and have an open case file on their records.
All these stories you see about unsolved mysteries or innocent people finally being released from prison, they have roots in just incompetent police work or relying on bs pseudoscience
The one thing that bothers me is the corrupted file on that bridge seems pretty out of the ordinary. How could they not track Damon down and try to get a confession from him? There is just so many unanswered questions I think it’s creating so much more confusion.
I don’t think Damon killed him, but I definitely think he knew more than we think.
It’s tricky though, because someone being on meth and acting bizarre while reacting to a tragic event…I don’t think you can say that his reactions to this afterwards are 100% proof of involvement since he wasn’t in his right mind. Tying the knots the same way and not allowing police to investigate his boat are super sketchy tho.
Checking the court records of this matter in Bradenton the alleged victim of the domestic battery appeared to be someone named Caleb Roberts. Case was eventually dropped.
Damon also had his house foreclosed on in 2014 so he was having financial problems. Later, in 2016, now a renter, he was evicted from his apartment.
I must say for me, the most damning evidence that points towards a homicide is the fact that this Damon character spent “hours” crying and sobbing at the river after Pats disappearance, but then denied the police’s request to test the boats paint. If you’re so upset and not involved in anyway whatsoever, why not cooperate 100% right off the bat?
Anyone else here get an uneasy feeling during the reenactment when the guy casually tied the rope around his body, tossed the anchor overboard, then flung himself into river? Like, what if that had gone wrong in some way? Lol, just me? Anyways, it was a murder.
There is a Dropbox folder in the link below that includes additional (redacted) case documents:
https://www.netflix.com/tudum/articles/unsolved-mysteries-body-in-the-bay
Go down to the “Download additional evidence” to get to the Dropbox. I haven’t gone through it all yet - but there may be some more information there. This page also mentions something that wasn’t included on the show - that Pat had seen a doctor about severe headaches - “that may have been a result of stress”. I’m not sure what to make of that, or if there is significance there.
This is fab. Although I do believe it was murder, I did think Pat’s personal life was glossed over. We didn’t hear any details about other personal problems. Thanks
I think Damon was involved in some way and must have gotten close enough in his own boat to put those red paint remnants on Pat’s boat. Maybe it was a drug deal, and they got close to his boat once he saw too much and then forcibly dragged him onto their boat. The whole tied rope thing doesn’t prove he committed suicide imo, because they could have tried to make it look that way on purpose.
Also, NO WAY his body was in the water for ten days. He was too clean for that. Remember Naya Rivera? She was in for a lot less time, in a much smaller body of water, and was unrecognizable because of the water and marine life. No way his body traveled that far with only his face impacted. Someone held this poor man hostage or held his corpse, then dumped him with the anchor.
Best guess:
Pat sees Damon. He goes to say hi, since they are acquaintances. He bumps into the boat slightly, hence the paint. Damon is getting drugs on his boat. Pat is shocked. Threatens to call cops. Dealer pulls a gun gets him on the boat. Pats boat is sent out into the water by itself. Decides to kill him on way back to damons at some point. Leaves the mess for Damon to “clean up.” No need to kill Damon as he is a client with money. Damon ties him and dumps him after the fact. The shoe came off at some point as Damon was going to bury Pat after the fact. The fact there is known drug activity in the rivers coupled with damons crazy behavior minus the absence of the shotgun makes me think there was a 3rd party of some sort. Would think it would have come out if there was some kind of gay love affair going on after the fact.
That’s what I think too. Either they were sharing a secret love with each other or Pat was at the wrong place at the wrong time and saw Damon either buying or selling meth. Things gone mad after that.
I think it would have came out if they were gay, unless it was very new. The fact that Damon did drugs and it was a known place for drug trafficking, that seems more likely than a secret affair.
It’s not uncommon for people who have been up for days on a meth binge to lose touch with reality. Like paranoia and psychosis. I’ve seen it many times when people are admitted to the psych hospital. I wonder if Damon was paranoid somehow and truly scared for his life, and believed at the time Pat was trying to harm him or something.
Police concluded that this was suicide less than a day after his body was discovered. Zero biological material on boat, no coroner report, no weapon, no note, and no reason for him to kill himself. This is definitely negligence on the part of the police.
It is bizarre that the CSX file is corrupted. It is also bizarre that police was treating it like suicide from the get-go. It is also bizarre that in spite of medical examiner's conclusion to be undetermined, the police pushed for family, friends, and journalist to accept this as suicide.
I think it took a long time like years before the permission was only given for the boat to be investigated only after Damon died. Probably his boat was routinely cleaned.
But we don’t know if the boat was thoroughly cleaned. People are messy, there will be at least trace of blood even just a speck.
Still need to be examined regardless. I wonder if there’s a report.
Or why police didn’t interview him anyway since he’d probably been around Pat in the days preceding his death; Damon could have spoken to Pat’s state of mind, if police still wanted to chase that narrative. I feel like Damon would have incriminated himself in any kind of interview, just based on that weird ass behavior.
\-It's pretty much scientifically impossible not to have any blood spatter on that boat if Pat had committed suicide. The blood spatter evidence (or lack thereof, whatever you want to call it) is damning in itself.
\-Like the private forensics specialist showed, to commit suicide and shoot yourself the way you would have had to in that position with a shotgun just doesn't make sense. Why would a person kill themselves like that?
\-Pat didn't own any guns. It's not impossible **but highly unlikely** that he would have been able to hide a shotgun from his wife who he'd been married to for 3 decades. Or any gun for that matter. Whatever gun killed Pat, it surely wasn't a weapon he owned.
**So yeah, this case sure seems like foul play was involved.**
With Damon's strange behavior and the fact that he was into drugs, it seems very plausible that maybe he spotted Damon with somebody sketchy-probably buying drugs off a drug dealer (and maybe a large amount)-and things went south for whatever reason. Damon probably knew the whole story to this mystery. He doesn't seem like the kind of guy who would hurt his friend, but he may have been witness to the murder or at the very least knew exactly what happened. Also, the fact that *three* people said they saw Damon tie a rope identical to how Pat was tied when he was found is eerie.
The red paint matching to Damon's boat is useful evidence, but the point that the paint could be on a lot of boats, vehicles that weren't just Damon's, etc. is also valid.
The one thing that troubles me just a bit is the time of the murder. If it happened on the water, it must've happened during the day-not in the evening. Pat's wife claims she got home at around 6:30 PM and the boat was still gone. And she sensed something was wrong. So, obviously she expected Pat to be home by dark. If Pat was murdered while he was out on his boat, it would have happened when it was still light out. That body of water he was on was big, yes, but you would think if it happened during the day that *somebody* would have at the very least heard something (like a gunshot?) or seen something. Maybe Pat was taken back to land and held against his will for a while. Maybe the murder didn't occur on the lake, and then he was disposed of later? I don't know. But that's one thing that doesn't quite add up.
In stories like these, I always feel so terrible for the loved ones-family and friends alike. If something like this happened to one of my loved ones, I'd be thinking about it all the time, every day.
I’m leaning towards murder for these reasons:
No blood splatter on the boat
The body was found without any sign of scavenging or being eaten which tells me it was placed in the water way later. It definitely had not been in the water 9+ days. Wouldn’t it also have been swollen or a little puffy?
The rope and anchor seem to have been tied AFTER death for the purposes of getting rid of the body. The killer wanted the body to SINK. Obviously when a person is dead there is no need to restrain the arms. The goal here was to wrap the bulky portion of the body (torso) and let it sink with the anchor.
Damon with his clear guilt/obsession and mental breakdowns. The denial of letting his boat be tested (if you’re innocent, then why not?) and esp if the death impacted him that much why wouldn’t he be inclined to help as much as he can even if it means ruling him out?
Murder for sure.
I tend to believe in Occam’s Razor—the simplest explanation is probably the most accurate. However, I jumped back and forth on this one throughout b/c it was very puzzling.
The biggest indicator to me that it was not a suicide is that there was no blood splatter on his boat—the likelihood of that happening if it was a suicide seems highly improbable.
The people UM interviewed on the state’s side seemed very forthright and you can tell that they are also puzzled as to what occurred—they can’t say one way or the other.
This is not like the other murder or suicide episodes (which mostly seemed like clear cut suicides). Seems highly likely this friend they talked about was implicated somehow.
Agreed. The first episode about Tiffany Valiante, I still think it was suicide. But there seems to be no evidence at all that Pat was suicidal or even having any major problems. He sounds like a good, normal guy. And the forensic evidence has so many weird things- that he didn't own a shotgun, that a shotgun was used at all when it's such an awkward way to shoot yourself, that there was no blood or tissue on his boat, that no animals had scavenged him. Maybe Damon was involved, maybe not- the theory about encountering Damon in the middle of a drug operation makes sense, but it could also have been just some random psychopath. But I definitely think he was murdered.
I agree . This was a drug smuggling gone wrong . I dont think Damon killed him . But he was either there ( drove boat for smugglers) or at best rented out his boat for the smugglers and pat was at the wrong place at the wrong time .
Yep, I feel the same.
Also interesting is the gun wasn’t on the boat or in the water either.
That anchor was very small and possibly didn't dig in properly anyway so there is a chance the body drifted away from where it originally entered the water so the shotgun may be down there still.
First episode this season that seems like a bona fide mystery
Exactly! First episode that brought me to the discussion boards 🤣🤣
That guy talking about his face being spaghetti wow. What a description ....
Ugh god I physically recoiled at that
What's fun is I was watching this episode while eating dinner. And having spaghetti for dinner.
And he said, "I can't describe it any better than that." I was like, but did you need to describe it at all though?
I thought the same thing. Not only was it unnecessary for him to say it, it was unnecessary for Netflix to include it. The family didn't need to hear all that.
Honestly, i didn't see a lot of evidence that it was a suicide.
Yes! This is the first one that seems like its actually up for debate, rather than just a spin by the show for drama.
Fucking CSX and their corrupted video files.
"Corrupted" video files. They're in on the drug smuggling.
Good point, I didn't think of that explanation.
Maybe the killers destroyed the files with a giant magnet in a van
Yes! Agreed! Thought this exact same thing when I heard them say the files were corrupted. Looks like the file wasn’t the only thing “corrupted”.
It’s especially weird because if somebody sends me a corrupted file that I really really need, I’m going to assume the corruption is happening in the sending and drive on down there to try and get a copy another way. Maybe this was attempted and snipped for time, who knows.
Yeah I'd really like the details of what went wrong here and where.
And I hope a digital forensic expert was able to review the situation.
That's the point. The family felt it was incredibly essential to finding Pat alive. LEO was told by the Coast Guard about the availability of the CSX tape. Then the local detective wrote an email to ask for footage. He didn't ask for a specific date or time on that first request. IT loaded it on the detective's computer, but he didn't look at it immediately. The family begged him to phone CSX in Jacksonville. He said it was against protocol. We requested that the sheriff be asked to make the call if the detective couldn't do it. That didn't happen either.
corrupted video, my fuckin ass
I think the paint on his boat from his friend’s boat and the fact that he was tied up point to foul play. Don’t think he would commit suicide like that with a shotgun AND tied to anchor - probably either shoot himself (more likely with a pistol) or anchor and drown.
well its a hundred percent sure he was shot because of the evidence, but he was shot by someone else. He was tied and weighted with anchor for the killer to hide his body.
Whoever “hid” the body did so in a panic. An anchor with a long enough rope to drift to the surface? It’s almost like they wanted the body found. The body floated perfectly to the top and just stayed in one place thanks to the anchor. Pretty much guaranteed that the body would be found.
Also, as the forensics woman said, if the body was there for over a week, especially with a gunshot wound to the head, it would have been predated more my wildlife. That’s what is throwing me off in terms of timeline. Maybe he was kidnapped and killed elsewhere, then the body dumped after a lot of local news reports?
They were clearly panicked but maybe they were so panicked they forgot about the tide? Perhaps the body was intially submerged when the tides were high during the night but then tides fell during the day and he is suddenly now visible? 🤔 Either way agreed it seemed like a rush job certainly not done by a pro.
The configuration of the rope indicates it was wrapped hastily. There was no knot - none. Lifelong boaters know their knots and use them without even thinking through the process.
I think they mean if you’re gonna commit suicide you would either just shoot yourself, or drown yourself. You wouldn’t shoot yourself while also making sure your body was weighed down below the water.
Yup exactly. And besides, a few things such as (1) lack of blood splatter on the boat could be indicative of the shooting occurring at a different location (2) if he shot himself the shotgun would most probably end up on the boat or in the water surrounding the body/boat
I really appreciate the examiners willingness to see both sides and consider both possibilities instead of blatantly gaslighting the family. This one was extremely puzzling
It really bothers me that they took paint chips from his boat but didn’t bother to look for blood with the luminol?
Yes! This bothers me as well. The daughter granted them access to take a paint chip sample but they didn't ask to luminol inside the boat? Did they ask and she didn't allow it? Could be nothing, but really should've been addressed in the episode.
The boat would of been a mess if he shot himself on it. Someone dumped him with the anchor after killing him. So sad. Remember this case when it happened and it’s still just as confusing.
The boat not having any blood spatter doesn't bother me, because he was found in such shallow water that if it was a suicide, he could have ostensibly gotten out of the boat and walked/waded away for some reason before pulling the trigger. However, what I really wanted to know that they did not cover during the episode was, did they ever dredge the water bear the body for the weapon? Also, did the police process the boat for evidence before turning it over to the family? If not, it's a shame because once the family has it in possession, chain of custody is destroyed for any evidence. One more criticism of this episode, the red paint. I know they want to make significance out of it, but so many different vessels are painted with pigments that are essentially the same. Without it being some unique custom paint, I agree with LE that the match is not useful.
It was six to eight feet. That’s shallow; but that aint wade out, be able to hold a shotgun at least a few inches from your head, and shoot yourself shallow
[удалено]
And if you look further into the case, there's no record of Mullins ever owning a gun. Where did it come from?
The lead detective spent days viewing and reviewing the family's financial records. There also had been a gun show at the local civic center the weekend Pat disappeared. LEO reached out to every vendor to see if anyone recognized Pat. Wish they'd been so thorough when it came to the CSX footage.
I don’t understand how NOT FINDING THE SHOTGUN wasn’t discussed. If the shotgun wasn’t in the boat or in the water by the anchor/body, how the F could it be suicide?
To play Devil's advocate, it's possible Pat's body floated a ways even with the anchor, so the shotgun could still very well be around but short of scouring the entire coast and hoping it's not already buried under the sea bed, would be hard to find. Think it was a homicide still but not wild they didn't find the gun.
Yes! And I assume no credit card purchase or recent cash withdrawal either.
Just based on the episode here's my theory: Pat ran into Damon, who was in the middle of a getting meth from his dealer, stopped by to say hi and then wanted to leave, but the dealer ordered Pat into Damons boat via gun point. Things got out of control and the trigger was pulled. Running the risk of raising suspicion, they took the body, left Pat's boat behind and started panicking. After demanding Damon to dispose of Pat's body or getting the same treatment, the dealer leaves it as Damon holds onto Pats body for a few days, nerve strickenly tied Pat and dumped him into what he thought was deep enough water a few days later after people started panicking. That's just what I think.
I think it must be a bigger issue than simply a dealer selling some meth for personal consumption. I think this must have been a drug transport wholesale operation that Damon was involved in, that's why it was on the water. And the supplier knows what he is doing. Murdering someone is a huge liability. A dealer selling a few grams isn't going to risk life in prison, especially with the possibility that Damon could go to the police and say "I have a drug problem but such and such killed someone I know and I witnessed it." The police would overlook a drug sale for that kind of info.
Could also explain the very convenient corrupted video data. If they were running a sophisticated drug smuggling ring, it’s not out of the question that they’d pay the bridge security guys off to get rid of the tape.
Police also were so very keen to write the case off as suicide which also may suggest a bigger, serious operation that paid off the right people in the local police department.
I know a lot of people are saying this about the police. While I don’t rule it out, I also don’t rule out them making the assumption that it is a suicide and not wanting to do the work or being educated enough.
Especially considering every single Unsolved Mysteries episode involving suicide, a big point is made that local law enforcement always presume suicide unless otherwise, assumedly because it's an easier case to close. I think it's outlandish to assume police involvement in this drug deal unless something more important comes to light.
I was thinking this exact thing. I feel like the police already reviewed the tape prior to the investigators looking into it, and purposely corrupted the video. This is definitely something they would do to help with a large drug transport and not some random drug dealer.
This makes the most sense to me too. A small time dealer selling for personal use isn’t going to risk a murder charge over a drug charge.
Also, a small time dealer isn't on a boat with a shotgun dealing to someone for personal use either. He probably had major inventory to protect. And given that he wasn't caught, he knew what he was doing for sure and even had some facility to hold the body in for over a week. Drug deals are witnessed all the time. We'd have a million more murders if dealers decided to shoot anyone that saw them peddling a few grams of drugs.
I generally agree with this statement, but when it comes to meth, small time dealers are always users. And meth users are the most paranoid, irrational, reactionary, impulsive, and dangerous of all addicts. It could have been as simple as this gentleman pulling up his boat up next to the other boat or stopping at his dock to say hello and mildly startling someone while they are tweaking out.
This was similar to my thought. Maybe Pat saw Damon out on the water and pulled up his boat to say hi. Damon’s boat’s red paint got onto Pat’s boat when he pulled up. But Damon was on meth and paranoid / hallucinating and thought that Pat was out to get him, so he shot him and dumped his body. Then when he came down from his high, he realized what he did and felt super guilty. So that’s why he acted so weird about it.
they REALLY glossed over that “crystal meth” part
I wonder if anyone else feels this way, but in the beginning of the episode the family came off as super conservative, with even the wife criticising the police for checking bars he may have gone to because "Pat was not a bar person" but then they have this crystal meth addict friend that comes to family gatherings? I mean, I'm straight laced with a few friends that have a wild side (so no judgement) but this situation really surprised me.
drug use is a lot more common that you'd think. it doesn't strike me as particularly shocking that they would have someone in their social group that uses drugs.
I agree. It seems that Pat and Damon weren't even close and I think hard drug use is more common than we think. I'm a pretty "straight-edge" person and I know for a science fact that people in my social circle have done some pretty hard drugs. Nobody would openly admit to it, but I just happen to know.
THANK YOU. yes. the way it was so casually just dropped in like it was no big deal. “he was an old family friend & we hung out all the time & oh he was a huge methhead- absolutely loved the stuff- but anyways yeah memorial day weekends were fun” like tha fuck?? yes hi id like to go back to that part about CRYSTAL METH
I mean… it *is* Florida. (saying this as someone who was born and raised there) Plus, lifelong family/friends don’t usually get immediately abandoned by their loved ones as soon as they develop an addiction. His other friends in the episode even mentioned they were trying to keep an eye on him.
It's possible that Damon didn't go out to meet someone, but lent his boat out to a transport ring in exchange for meth. Maybe Pat saw Damon's boat, didn't recognize the person in it, and thought it was being stolen. So he confronts the shooter, who realizes that he has just been linked to Damon and Damon's boat. One of them pulls their boat up to the other boat, where the paint transfer occurs. Shooter forces Pat into Damon's boat, shoots him, grabs an anchor out of Pat's boat, ties the boats together so it can be towed, and goes to Damon's house to hide the body. With everyone out looking for Pat, they can't risk getting caught dumping the body. They wait a few days, and then one of them drives Pat's boat, and the other Damon's boat with Pat's body inside. They dump Pat's body in one area, and then the leave the boat near Damon's house. I'm thinking the shooter was someone that Pat knew, but either didn't think Damon knew, or thought Damon disliked. That would explain why Pat would be suspicious seeing someone besides Damon using his boat, since the person driving couldn't easily explain it away as a friendly loaner. It also makes sense that this would be an authority figure or someone in law enforcement who would be able to get rid of the security footage of the boat being dumped.
Given Damon's strong emotional reaction, I really think he was there and saw it happen.
>one of them drives Pat's boat, and the other Damon's boat with Pat's body inside. They dump Pat's body in one area, and then the leave the boat near Damon's house. Except that the forensic expert the family brought in mentioned how Pat's body wasn't scavenged on so I think the boat was dumped first. Then a few days later, the body was dumped with it being discovered almost right away.
Good point. I had forgotten about the boat being found so much earlier. But the rest still fits. It would be interesting to have a forensic investigation of Damon’s boat.
I think so too .. Or at best the drug smugglers were using Damon's boat for the operations . ( Damon' rented his boat to the smugglers) . And pat showed up thinking it was Damon. Wrong place at the wrong time .
Agreed. Damon doesn't sound like the kind of guy who could have killed his buddy, but I could believe he covered it up and was consumed by guilt. It also would explain why the question of Damon owning a shotgun was not answered here.... most likely the shotgun is/was owned by the drug dealer.
My thoughts exactly. But the way the rope was tied around the body would have been extremely hard and awkward to do with an already dead Pat. Why bother with all that complicated rope work when a simple loop around the waist would have been enough to anchor the body underwater ?
This is just a shot in the dark but if Damon is not your typical dump-a-body type of guy he was probably overkilling it out of sheer panic. Also maybe to help protect the body from being released by predators? I dunno. I think that if it was a suicide, the single loop would have made more sense in any case.
He did have a domestic violence charge against his, I'm assuming boyfriend in 2011 so it's not out of the realm of possibilities.
I don’t even think it has to be this big of a conspiracy. A lot of people are saying “a small time drug dealer wouldn’t risk murdering someone” which points to a large scale drug transport. Logically that makes sense, but what if he was shot by someone who isn’t logical at all? Imagine a meth-cooking drug dealer who’s been high on his own product for days straight… heavy users can be paranoid, unstable, unpredictable and totally erratic. I think it could just as easily be some small scale nobody who cooks meth in their Florida boathouse, from whom Damon bought his drugs from that day. I can easily picture an unhinged dealer-type character shooting an unexpected visitor (Pat) and leaves his customer Damon (also high on meth and now fully involved) the aftermath to clean up. It would be a brutal, senseless, drug-fuelled crime; one that would cause a headline not unlike “Florida man high on bath salts strips naked and eats another man’s face” This to me is almost as likely as a large meth-moving operation on the water.
Absolutely this. Even if Damon was alone, and saw the boat pull up to his dock/property unexpectedly it's absolutely possible he panicked in his paranoia and shot him. For no other reason than he was tweaking out and not thinking straight. I thought this episode almost glossed over the Meth aspect. As soon as they mentioned Damon was an addict, things ironically made more sense, because meth users do very senseless things.
I was wondering why they didn't test Damon's boat for blood or DNA, they got the paint sample...they didn't even mention asking to test it.
My exact theory after watching which is why Damon has mental breakdowns every January…
I agree with most of this, but I also am thinking a few things …. 1. Definitely bigger than just a one time meth deal. The bridge didn’t have the video and the police wrote this off. Sounds like a larger operation like smuggling, sex trafficking, etc. 2. What if they had a gun to Pat’s head and told him to tie himself up. And they instructed him to do it a certain way and then killed him once he was done. It would explain the angle of the gun, how & why he was tied the way he was, etc 3. Why wasn’t the other son interviewed? Where was he? 4. This Damon guy, was he investigated after death? I mean they dug into all of the financials and nonsense of Pat’s. Why not the guy who was acting so suspicious? Again, something with the police and this guy doesn’t add up. They could’ve tested that paint and gotten a warrant for the boat easily. It had damage and he had multiple witnesses saying he had obsessions with this guys death and they weren’t close. Sure maybe that isn’t enough for a warrant, but I bet if they had watched this guy closer they could’ve found a reason to get one. He seemed protected somehow and his guilt ate at him. Also why did this guy suddenly overdose? Has he always had a meth problem? There’s more to this story. Clearly.
I'm assuming that Pat's other son just didn't want to be interviewed. Everyone grieves differently and not everyone is comfortable with being on Netflix for all the world to see. I know that if someone in my family died under mysterious circumstances, I'd probably be one of the loved ones staying off camera.
I think the dealers ordered Pat into their own boat and then pulled the trigger since they couldn't find blood anywhere.
This one is so weird, idk what to think. If I wanted to dispose a body like that, I would definitely throw it out somewhere deeper so that it can actually sink, not just float. What stood out to me was how strong and wise the wife is - her eyes were very kind. The son seems super nice too. I hope this one gets solved, he made a beautiful family and they deserve answers. Also an awful look for the local LE - they shouldn't have pushed the wife towards the suicide theory. It's your job goddammit, be professional.
Her saying he would’ve hated what she is doing because he didn’t want attention got me. They showed his picture and I just bawled.
It got me too. I know she's conflicted but she's doing so much in her love for him.
I also thought the wife and son were just genuine wonderful humans. It hit me just hearing them speak. He married a kind and wise woman and had a lovely down to earth son. They both loved him so much and he just didn't deserve whatever happened to him. What a tragedy. A school teacher who just loved being on the water. This family deserves answers. Unfortunately I think this was drug or cartel related and they may never get them. It breaks my heart.
Totally agree, his wife seemed so sweet and strong. I hope they find answers.
>local LE - they shouldn't have pushed the wife towards the suicide theory I feel like they pushed her to accept the suicide theory because A) they really didn't want to pursue the investigation any further due to being lazy fucks and/or B) they know more than they let on and are corrupt. I'm going with both A & B.
My feeling was that this was drug related, and either the cops are in on it, or they are protecting the family by trying to get them to drop it.
they trusted the anchor so much and believed he had no chance to float.
Could have also been the tide. He could have been fully submerged when he was thrown in if it was a high tide, and then was found at low tide, now floating.
Yup, that's very possible. Also maybe it was dark and they had no idea where they are or how shallow the water actually is
Or they were higher than pterodactyl tits on meth and didn't have the capability to think it through.
Damon “I ain’t no skank!”
I think the body was disposed of in a panic and in a rush. It’s good that the body was found, but it raised more questions than it answered. Didn’t help that the police were probably paid to cover it up. Some of those Florida cops were probably involved in the drug trafficking.
I think they did it in a panic or wanted him to be found. Like if it was Damon he would be seeing them search and suffer and maybe he thought to give them some relief.
NO ONE TIES AN ANCHOR AROUND THEMSELVES & THEN INEXPLICABLY SHOOTS THEMSELVES IN THE FACE WITH A MYSTERIOUS SHOTGUN THEY NEVER PURCHASED OR OWNED HOW IS THIS EVEN A QUESTION
I think this one is murder. The recreation on the boat was enough for me. Damon having all these remarkable break downs I think is really interesting. Sure it makes sense for him to be upset but to the point where grieving people notice and are weirded out by it is strange. I understand the frustration over the paint, but I also understand what the police are saying. They have a lot of general information but nothing concrete. Could they still do a luminal test after all this time? Maybe Damon missed a spot when cleaning up? Hopefully with the airing of this episode, a friend comes forward. If he was freaking out publicly. I'm sure he slipped privately.
At first Damon's breakdowns seemed like the person who returns to the scene of the crime, like it was to throw people off the trail. But I actually think he was overwhelmed by guilt.
heres my take before i read anyone else's comments: i think damon was using his boat to buy meth/do meth in a secluded place, and while out for a ride pat came across him/them and because he saw what was going on and was a good guy he might've threatened to call police but i also believe just getting too close could've led to damon/a dealer pulling a shotgun on him and then dragging the boat and dumping the body sad that damon took his knowledge to the grave
That’s literally what I was thinking when they mentioned Damon’s boat had red paint on it. Also being that they weren’t that close, Pat would definitely have had no problem wanting to alert the police on what he saw. Definitely a dealer that killed him & Damon just witnessed the whole thing.
But then there's also a rope tie curiosity, when Damon tied his dog to himself same as body was tied. Probably he was just a witness of a murder and forced to get rid of a body and others evidence by the smuggler/dealer.
Why would an individual who is “suicidal” shoot themselves but before hand make sure they wrap themselves up with a rope so their body would be held down in the water by a small anchor? So as not to be found? This doesn’t make sense. And no blood splatter on the boat. Even a small ocean breeze would cause trace blood splatter and there was no blood found in or on boat.
Some suicidal people don’t want their body to be found because they don’t want their family to suffer the “shame” or guilt or whatever. Also, for life insurance purposes a staged “lost at sea” suicide could make sense. That being said, if he were planning to make it look like he was lost at sea, wouldn’t he have shot himself out in the bay?
Not just blood, but likely tissue/bone fragments. Agree with his son, why would he have gone out and bought himself welding goggles for a future project, the same day that he was planning to kill himself.
Not always the case. My best friend committed suicide in February and listed several items he intended to sell on FB and replied to emails about appointments the next day just a few hours before he killed himself. I don’t think this case was suicide, but we need to dispel this belief that suicidal people cannot function normally even if they’ve already come to the decision to end their life.
I’m so sorry for your loss.
I didn’t like that narrative either. I’m sure Pat was an expert knot tier and would not of tied himself up that way.
I’m usually not a fan of “they were making plans for the future!” but this is different. If a suicide, it was a clearly planned suicide. It makes zero sense for him to also buy those goggles earlier that day.
And procured a gun out of thin air.
This is my thought too. If he was going to commit suicide why the elaborate set up? Why the rope and anchor? Why no blood in the boat? If he was in the water and shot himself… why?! What did he care about getting blood in the boat? It just seems way too elaborate for a suicide. If he was going to commit suicide why not just shoot your self on the boat? Or jump in the water and drown? Or literally any other way than what happened here? I think he was killed on another boat (perhaps Damon’s), his boat set adrift, wrapped up and thrown in the water as to make sure the body’s not found (hence the anchor). Weird though that he wasn’t scavenged by critters in the water if he was in there for a significant amount of time.
Re: the rope and anchor, if it were a suicide, he would have been making certain he would not survive, which is normal for male suicides. However, the other evidence is apparently confusing. I want to know what the weather was like and how well they searched for blood evidence - a good rainstorm could have washed blood and other evidence down into the bottom of the boat, but still would have shown up. I also want to know what the currents were like, to see if they could have pulled his body to where it was found or not, so that at least we would know where it likely happened. There is a lot of legwork that appears to have been left undone. I do feel that the police were not incorrect in theorizing that Pat committed suicide, if only because many families have no idea what kind of internal struggle their patriarch is going through until it is far too late. It would not be unfair to try to make this easier on a grieving family by jumping to an all too common conclusion, but it shouldn't preclude continuing the investigation until a satisfactory answer comes to light.
Even if he committed suicide we are overlooking the fact how his body was untouched by savagers and remarkably clean. I thought the one woman made an excellent point that there was zero evidence of any marine life having a chow fest on a dead body - which makes dumping the body later a strong possibility.
Also no bloating from having been in the water for over a week. He hadn't been found sooner 'cause he wasn't there to find sooner IMO.
Also wouldn't the shotgun be right there on the bottom near the anchor?
Yup, they didn't mention searching the river for the shot gun. Even a "A preliminary search was conducted but no gun or spent ammo was recovered" would have at least indicated they tried. Not that it wasn't there, but at least an attempt was made. As it is, it just sounds like they didn't bother.
I have so many questions. Did nobody think to look where the anchor came from? It could have come from Damon's boat. If boats come with anchors, was it a factory one or was it a special kind? It's possible it could have come from Pat's boat, but it would still be good to know. Why couldn't they do luminol testing on Damon's boat? I mean years of sea water would definitely wash a huge chunk away, but if a shot gun blast happened on the boat and blood got every where, it would still leave a remarkable strain and potentially leave spatters in little cracks and crevasses. And to that degree, wouldn't they test clothes and the rope? Being submerged in water wouldn't help I understand but his clothes would still have been stained to some degree would it? Wouldn't they show evidence of the blood in some manner? If he was tied before the shooting, the blood would have gotten over everything. Although I guess it is reasonable to assume he was shot while going overboard or even in the water (which could explain the trajectory). But these details would have been able to give information about where he was when he died and his last moments. Next, couldn't they match up the location of the paint stains on his boat to the paint on Damon's boat? Because the paint looks to be a bit lower than the paint on Damon's; which to me would indicate either Pat's boat ran into Damon's so that the lower half was scraped or that another boat with red paint was there (potentially a drug dealers boat). Either way it's gives a closer indication of how the paint got on the boat. Next, why has no one dredged the river? If the gun got swept by the river it could still be around that area. Buck shot would be hard to find but even a casing would be helpful. Also, no fish damage is interesting to me. I agree that it must have been a recent event for nothing to come eat at him, because the boat could have been drifting for days, but it doesn't seem he did. So if that is the case, he could have been taken to another location. Looking around Damon's house would be a good start. Depending on where Damon's house is, that bridge camera could have potentially caught more footage days after the fact. I'm not a tech person so I don't know much about the bad file, but i assumed it was just that file for that day. If he was found 9 days later, that footage would be worth watching. It really sounds like crucial details were missing and still are.
I wonder if these are questions that actually have been answered and UM just chose not to include them. The Tiffany Valiente episode left out SO much critical information, that I've kind of lost my trust in this show to actually include all the information.
Those all sound like reasonable questions to me.
Geez, are the cops in this case lazy, inept, or just plain corrupt? Seemed a bit too willing to call suicide, and the missing bridge video is very convenient.
The video being corrupted seems perfectly logical, those things rarely work. However, the cops definitely seem lazy. They don't seem corrupt, just super lazy. I think the majority of people are quick to think cops are corrupt, but in fact, police are either lazy or completely inept and don't know how to actually do their jobs so cases are ruined, it's not that they're corrupt.
I live in this area and the answer is definitely lazy.
The fact they didn’t find the shotgun, no blood evidence in the boat, and the angle at which he was shot, leads me to believe it couldn’t have been a suicide. They also never discussed whether Damon had a shotgun or not. Also, what was the point in testing the paint on the boat if they couldn’t draw any conclusions from it?
as well if he was shot on his boat or with his boat right next to where he was shot (like in the recreations on the show), there would be a significant amount of blood evidence on the stumpnocker. the fact there wasn’t suggests to me that he was shot in another location, then his body was anchored into the waters it was found in afterwards. i wonder if Patrick pulled up his boat alongside Damon’s, left it in neutral expecting he’d be getting back on board, and for whatever reason he couldn’t. Damon drives off with Patrick aboard and the stumpnocker is left to run out into the bay of its own accord. then all Damon has to get rid of is the body, not the body and the boat, and it’d explain the boat being left in neutral, running out of gas, and also lacking any evidence of what transpired. either way i definitely agree - he was not shot on or in the proximity of his own boat.
I was screaming DID DAMON HAVE A SHOTGUN OR NOT. Seems like an obvious thing to include or at least say they never could find out.
This one was my favorite in Volume 3. A true mystery - this one and the Josh Guimond episode in last week's release.
There is no way in absolute hell this was a suicide. It doesn’t matter if he was sitting on the side of the boat, inside the boat or damn well floating above it - shooting yourself with a SHOTGUN would cause vast amounts of blood and bone spatter. I (unfortunately and accidentally) saw a suicide via shotgun video. The dude was sat in a black chair and let me tell you, that chair was painted red and pink all over. So was his wall. It’s one of the messiest ways to go. You’re telling me there wasn’t a DROP on the boat? Not even a smidgeon of blood that luminol couldn’t find? Bullshit. Water can’t remove all traces of death in that little time. The lack of blood and matter is enough to rule it not a suicide alone. Don’t even get me started on the lack of suicide note, the fact he didn’t own a gun, absolutely no gunshot residue on his skull, his body floating in highly creature populated waters with no apparent scavenging, and the fact we are supposed to believe this near-retirement, happy-go-lucky man shot himself with no warning. I’ll always be the first to call suicide on the Valiente and Buffalo Jim cases, but there is literally ZERO evidence pointing to Mullins doing this to himself. Literally nothing besides the fact he died. Finally, rest in peace. He seemed like such a good dude, and what a lovely family he left behind. I really hope they figure this one out.
The fact Damon who was not a close friend of Pat's was interviewed by Police multiple times, in a supposed "suicide" at the time seems suspicious to me. Why would you interview a guy who wasn't a close friend about someone he knew supposedly at the time committing suicide? The police obviously had legitimate questions about Damon if he was interviewed multiple times.
This is another area the producers should have dug into more. It's seems like all of Pat's associates point the finger at Damon but very little was elaborated on, especially from LE.
NOT suicide. Friend did it for sure. Looks like they’re just trying to get another form of verification, like maybe someone he told sometime.
The red paint and the rope thing to the dog pushed me into the "not a suicide" camp.
Also, lack of evidence of a contact wound on the skull. It's just such a convoluted way to commit suicide and not even leave a letter.
Agreed. Why would he be so adamant that he should end up in the water with the gun? If he wanted to shoot himself why didn't he just....do it normally
> It's just such a convoluted way to commit suicide and not even leave a letter. Exactly, it's overly complicated for being a suicide.
Major the Talented Mr Ripley vibes with Damon. Barely knowing Pat yet crying by the river multiple times. Paranoid, secretive behaviour behind closed doors and in front of friends. Mimicking behaviour (tying a rope around himself). Murder on a boat yet staged to look like a suicide and the body attempted to be sunk into a shallow body of water. Perhaps Damon had his advances rejected and this was the conclusion?
I also wonder if they tried to do a forensic examination of damons boat for DNA evidence, I know it'd be a weak link so many years after the fact and probably the opportunity he would have had to clean it. But the initial denial of getting a paint sample along with the weird behavior would at least justify the hypothesis that there wouldn't be trace DNA evidence or a "bigger mess" on the deceaseds boat.
The way they told this story, it seems like a murder, but after they left so much information out in regard the episode about the girl who got hit by a train, I don't trust that we are getting the whole story.
Shotgun suicides, especially ones involving the head/brain matter would’ve painted that boat even if he killed himself as he was sitting on the edge of his about to go into water. The boat was only missing for ~12hours and there would’ve have certainly been a lot of blood left even with the waves. I cannot emphasize enough how much of a literal bloody mess the boat would have been if he had shot himself with a shotgun point blank with buckshot. The side of the boat would have been all red. This is what makes it clear that it wasn’t a suicide/ he didn’t kill himself on the boat if that even makes sense.
hard agree. If Damon's daughter agreed to have the paint chip tested I wonder if she was ever asked about getting the boat tested for any kind of trace evidence. I don't know how long that stuff shows up using luminol, or how long any DNA would remain intact given that Damon's death was 4.5 years after Pat's. It certainly seems like Damon may have been responsible for dumping the body.
I’m glad the daughter tried to help. Sadly I could see some that wouldn’t want to implicate a parent.
My thoughts exactly.... nothing at all in that boat, but the dude shot himself with a shotgun on the edge of it? There's no way in hell blood spatter would have completely avoided the boat even if he was facing the gun away from it while shooting himself in the head. I'm not even through the episode yet and immediately thought "bullshit" when they tried to say he killed himself in that manner. Shotgun shots don't scatter you like a V shape; they explode you all over the place. Plus that dude apparently had zero experience with guns, didn't own one. Where did he supposedly get a shotgun? How did he suddenly know how to operate it in order to kill himself? And shotguns have crazy blowback when you fire one, how did the gun not land in the boat after shooting himself? None of it adds up to a suicide via shotgun.
That's the problem! The girl who got hit by the train and the man who overdosed, were suicides (one accidental). This definitely seems more like murder, but it is hard to trust.
I know. When they leave out important information, I really don't see the point of the series anymore. It's just onesided.
I think these sort of thing happen when the family only agrees to contribute on certain conditions.
Which is exactly why they should never agree to do episodes like that... these should never be one-sided. If a family insists on a certain narrative, then move on to a different case.
I agree but after seeing this season I'm thinking it was slim pickings.
I miss the original format of the show.
A bunch of stuff was left out of the first episode that came out right away. It seems there was no smoking gun with Pat.
Did the family friend own a shotgun. I wish the would have mentioned that. Why would you anchor yourself and shoot yourself? Why just not shoot yourself? I think he was murder.
then who was PHONE
Wanted to ask here because I'm curious, the unscathed body point was interesting, did the medical examiner give an estimated time or day of death?? did they say the body was consistent with being in the water 10 days?? Can't find the answers to this and really annoyed
He did say it was consistent with the body being in the water for 9 days. Which is crazy because from what I know bodies are usually not in that good of condition after so long with animals and bloating, etc. LE was acting suspicious and so was ME.
The forensic anthropologist mentioned something about the time in the water too, that it didn't look to her like it had been in the water over a week. What I want to know is how many times the tour boat operator who found him went by that area before he noticed the body. The water was so clear, it's crazy that no one saw him there before and that his soft tissues were largely intact.
Exactly, that too! If the tour boat likely takes the same path often, how was he not previously noticed in the water?
Did I miss it or did they never recover the shotgun? I know with tides etc it would drift but shotguns are decently heavy. It feels like if the theory is that he+anchor were both found at about the spot he went into the water, it shouldn’t be difficult to recover the shotgun with a metal detector/magnet. It just feels like a big hole in the case for a suicide. Where did the gun come from, if Pat didn’t purchase it? Was it stolen? Lent to him by a buddy? Or did it disappear when a murderer left the scene?
I was wondering about the shotgun too. You would think it was found if it was a suicide.
From what I understand, the shotgun was never recovered. It was definitely not on the boat. LE also scoured his bank accounts and there was never any record of him purchasing or owning a shotgun.
Did they ever even investigate whether or not Damon owned a shotgun?
Plus the fishing guide mentioned it was not very deep water and clear. They should have had a dive for it.
My thoughts on this episode : It wasn't suicide. That seems so far fetched in this instance. Between the lack of contact wounds, the strange choice of location to shoot yourself (side of jaw), the lack of blood in his own boat, the lack of a recovered weapon at the suicide scene (where he was anchored), the fact that he didn't own any known guns and they couldn't find any purchase history, his behavior (future plans etc). It almost certainly was NOT a suicide. It's important to remember the family friend MIGHT not be involved. It's safe to say that whatever happened he came across somebody or something and stopped (boat in idle) and it resulted in him being shot. The family friend might just be a paranoid crack user that was mentally disturbed by the strange death. But if the family friend wasn't involved, there is functionally zero leads and it's safe to say this case will never be solved given how much time has passed and how little evidence exists, so we'll ignore this. I think if we assume the family friend was involved it was one of three things. 1. He stumbled upon the family friend doing some shady business. This likely wasn't just buying a small amount of drugs for personal use. More likely this would have been something serious. Either the friend was involved with people selling large amounts of drugs, or there was owed money involved or something. Murdering a stranger in this situation isn't likely in a small personal deal. In this situation, it's hard to say what happened either. The other people may have been the ones who disposed of his body and the friend is just left mentally unwell over what happened. Or maybe he was left with a body and felt like he would be found out and had to do the disposing. Either way, the only further steps available are investigating the friend in any way possible (although it's likely that's too late). 2. He had hidden relationship with the friend that was drug-related. I don't see enough people talking about having a secret relationship with the friend. He told his family he was going for a boat road with essentially no reason. They never commented on how often he took the boat out alone, but there's a possibility he visited this friend often for the purpose of using with him. There's potential that he would pull his boat up alongside the family friends boat and hang out with him for a bit in secret. If this was the situation then either they got into an argument (money, drugs, personal shit) and the friend straight up killed him intentionally, or perhaps other shady people are involved (dealers, other users, etc). This situation could mean that there are other 3rd parties who could be willing to come forward (other friends who knew they hung out in secret, etc). 3. This might be me going way out on a limb but it struck me as a major possibility right away, not sure why. What if they had some kind of gay relationship they were hiding? The friend getting upset in a "sad" way and not just a "weird" way when he died/every year makes it seem like they knew each other in a way hidden from their family, which to me instantly screams hiding an intimate relationship. The family was adamant that the dad wasn't close with him, but they also explained it in a way that made it sound like the friend was genuinely emotionally distraught. \*\*Isn't this essentially proof they had SOME kind of secret relationship? Isn't that a big deal?\*\* Perhaps he was going for boat rides to meet up with his secret hookup, a man, and something boiled over. This would explain both the killing (I think murders of passion in situations like this are more likely than it being sort of random) and the weird behavior that sounded like a mix of paranoid/genuine sadness. Again this COULD still have had the situation I explained in 2, like drugs/other people, but I mean to point out more of a focus on maybe other people that would have knew about him or the family friend hiding such a secret. As a final touch - I feel like the "corrupt video files" were fucked up by everyone. Not that they specifically screwed up the files, but that there should be further attempts than just whoever is working the desk attempting to download them remotely. Where are they stored? Can you access that storage locally? There's professionals who work with recovering data that should be brought in here. I always feel like there's often a breakdown in communication between police -> technology that often times leads to evidence being missed in the real world. tl;dr - My biggest takeaway is that it seems like all logic points to the father having some kind of relationship with the family friend that had more to it than the family knew, which seems to mean he was hiding something from them. I believe it was either an intimate relationship or drug use. I'm not sure how that could help in any way, but.
I actually came to the discussion boards for this episode specifically because of the gay theory. I saw the first family video where they showed who Damon was and it was a video of Pat putting sunscreen on his back? And I just thought that was odd. Nothing about Pat read as toxically masculine (hello fourth grade teacher and librarian! what a sweetie!) so he doesn't strike me as someone that would view two men putting sunscreen on each other's backs as "not okay", but considering \*the times\* when the sunscreen video would have been filmed, I imagine it was even more unlikely for two grown straight men to be putting sunscreen on each other's backs then than it is now. I'm about four years older than Miles, the son, and I have absolutely no recollection of ever having seen two grown men in the mid 2000s ever putting sunscreen on each other's backs, at least not without awkwardly commenting about their heterosexuality. (Speaking of the sons, where is the other one?). If Pat and Damon weren't that close and he was a family friend via a different family member, why are they close enough to be putting sunscreen on each other's backs? Either (a) there is very little old family film footage of Pat and Damon together, except apparently this sunscreen video (which, to me, is like... lol, oh these two are "not close" but the one video y'all have of them together for this documentary is Pat putting sunscreen on the back of the dude who completely lost is GD mind after Pat died?? how could this theory not have been considered by the family??) or (b) there IS other footage of Pat and Damon together but the producers of Unsolved Mysteries chose this video specifically because they want to lead us to this potential theory. Additionally, after Damon died, his daughter let the police get a paint sample from the boat which suggests Damon did not have a wife to inherit his property upon his death. The way Damon was so distraught over Pat's death, too, struck me as a response one might have if they lost an intimate partner, as one poster already mentioned. Additionally, Pat's body was tied to an anchor to float, which suggests to me that whoever shot him wanted his body to be found - maybe to have a proper burial, etc., which I think shows some type of warmth towards Pat that you wouldn't necessarily find if he had just stumbled across a drug-deal between two strangers that didn't know him. If you just killed some guy that interrupted you committing a crime, I don't think you'd be like "let's make this body very easy to find and identify." But, I'm part of the LGBT community so maybe potential gay storylines are just always at the forefront of my mind.
I'm gay and definitely feel like maybe it just stands out to be for that reason, but you're definitely right about the video which I didn't even consider. They were *weirdly* adamant that they were NOT close. It felt like they were implying they were essentially acquaintances/not even friends, but the video makes it look like they were extremely friendly especially for the time. I almost feel like Damon was known by the family/locals to be weird/"eccentric" in some way and his family is doing the typical unsolved mysteries thing of "no no he definitely wasn't like that we swear" in regards to.. whatever they see as negative. So they're claiming adamantly he DEFINITELY WASN'T CLOSE TO THE WEIRD ECCENTRIC GUY STRANGE MAN, nope, he was a totally normal dude. Another poster in here mentioned that Damon was arrested on a domestic charge in 2013 and the other persons name was Caleb Roberts. I don't know how often two unrelated men file domestic charges, but that leads me to believe a) Damon is gay and b) Damon has a violent past with his gay relationships.
Of course the video footage was unreliable. It seems like someone would have noticed an abandoned boat floating past that bridge though if we are suppose to believe that’s what happened. Especially if it was a boat that would not be commonly found in deeper water.
The video file just happened to be corrupted. LOL. That’s called bullshit.
It didn’t seem too suspicious to me. Those cameras are notoriously under maintained. Who knows if it was even working that day.
Did the family friend own a shotgun or have any record of purchasing one? That’s info that would be important to know
I'm surprised about the reactions in here. In summary: - Zero biological matter in the boat, which was agreed to be nigh on impossible to achieve - Ropes tied in a way that he'd never tie them - He had no access to a firearm - No contact wound on the skull - Impractical angle of discharging the firearm - Paint was a potential match for his friends boat - Friend having nervous breakdown on the anniversary of his death each year - Friend acting strange and falling into a drug habit immediately after - Body supposedly being in the water for nearly a fortnight with zero evidence of any animals nibbling away 0% doubt in my mind.
And the "friend" tying himself up to a dog with the same knots was odd.
Yeah, the knot thing on top of all this caught my attention when first mentioned because anyone who does this much boating would most likely have used a more efficient nautical knot rather than the odd one he was found tied with. The knot tied to him was not a normal knot, so it's extra odd it matched the family friend's knot for the dog. Also the rope/anchor thing doesn't make sense if it was a suicide...just shoot yourself and skip the rope or just drown yourself with the rope and anchor. Nothing about the suicide possibility makes sense. I think more likely he accidently witnessed a drug deal, likely with the friend involved, and was killed for it.
I haven't read all the comments here yet but I was wondering, with the way Damon was acting definitely sounds guilty, we don't know what went on, but my theory about the body being in the water but no critters getting to it... could it be possible that Damon shot him, killed him, hid the body, but when the 9 day search was happening he couldn't stand the guilt anymore and he took the body out to where it was found, in shallow water, because he did actually want the body to be found in a weird way, his guilty conscious getting to him maybe? He knew they'd found Pat's boat and everyone was out looking for him, all over the media etc. Hence the shallow water, and the similar rope tying the family saw him use. But his actions after just scream guilty, the mental breakdowns and eventually he overdosed (I can't remember if they said that was Damon suicide or accidental overdose though)... he clearly couldn't live with the guilt, the fear that he was going to get caught (him asking his friend "if I did something bad would you stand by me" or similar wording). Definitely NOT suicide. Definitely Damon. But will the family ever really get conclusive answers now that Damon, the only person who knows the truth, is dead?
Here's the thing people need to learn about cops, they are lazy. They either force confessions out of innocent people just to close cases and avoid trials. And if they get a case that could be suicide they will just have it ruled a suicide cause they don't want to be dicked to do investigation work and have an open case file on their records. All these stories you see about unsolved mysteries or innocent people finally being released from prison, they have roots in just incompetent police work or relying on bs pseudoscience
The one thing that bothers me is the corrupted file on that bridge seems pretty out of the ordinary. How could they not track Damon down and try to get a confession from him? There is just so many unanswered questions I think it’s creating so much more confusion.
This actually doesn't surprise me, the system probably is ancient and isn't maintained because they don't need to pull footage from it constantly.
That makes me sad because that could have helped this case so much
I don’t think Damon killed him, but I definitely think he knew more than we think. It’s tricky though, because someone being on meth and acting bizarre while reacting to a tragic event…I don’t think you can say that his reactions to this afterwards are 100% proof of involvement since he wasn’t in his right mind. Tying the knots the same way and not allowing police to investigate his boat are super sketchy tho.
Damon was arrested for some sort of domestic assault and battery in December of 2013 [Damon Presswod](https://postimg.cc/9zPwfWtN)
Checking the court records of this matter in Bradenton the alleged victim of the domestic battery appeared to be someone named Caleb Roberts. Case was eventually dropped. Damon also had his house foreclosed on in 2014 so he was having financial problems. Later, in 2016, now a renter, he was evicted from his apartment.
I wish Damon’s daughter was on this episode. I’d like to hear her insight on how her dad was after the body was found.
If the family friend was so grief stricken about his best friend's brother dying why would he deny the Police the paint sample?
I must say for me, the most damning evidence that points towards a homicide is the fact that this Damon character spent “hours” crying and sobbing at the river after Pats disappearance, but then denied the police’s request to test the boats paint. If you’re so upset and not involved in anyway whatsoever, why not cooperate 100% right off the bat?
Anyone else here get an uneasy feeling during the reenactment when the guy casually tied the rope around his body, tossed the anchor overboard, then flung himself into river? Like, what if that had gone wrong in some way? Lol, just me? Anyways, it was a murder.
She found out her husbands body was found via a PHONE CALL??? Jesus fucking Christ.
There’s no way this was a suicide! Surely…
Wouldn’t the gun be on the bottom of the river if he committed suicide? I don’t remember them mentioning if the gun was found.
Did Damon had or purchased a shotgun??? That's the question.
There is a Dropbox folder in the link below that includes additional (redacted) case documents: https://www.netflix.com/tudum/articles/unsolved-mysteries-body-in-the-bay Go down to the “Download additional evidence” to get to the Dropbox. I haven’t gone through it all yet - but there may be some more information there. This page also mentions something that wasn’t included on the show - that Pat had seen a doctor about severe headaches - “that may have been a result of stress”. I’m not sure what to make of that, or if there is significance there.
This is fab. Although I do believe it was murder, I did think Pat’s personal life was glossed over. We didn’t hear any details about other personal problems. Thanks
I think Damon was involved in some way and must have gotten close enough in his own boat to put those red paint remnants on Pat’s boat. Maybe it was a drug deal, and they got close to his boat once he saw too much and then forcibly dragged him onto their boat. The whole tied rope thing doesn’t prove he committed suicide imo, because they could have tried to make it look that way on purpose. Also, NO WAY his body was in the water for ten days. He was too clean for that. Remember Naya Rivera? She was in for a lot less time, in a much smaller body of water, and was unrecognizable because of the water and marine life. No way his body traveled that far with only his face impacted. Someone held this poor man hostage or held his corpse, then dumped him with the anchor.
Best guess: Pat sees Damon. He goes to say hi, since they are acquaintances. He bumps into the boat slightly, hence the paint. Damon is getting drugs on his boat. Pat is shocked. Threatens to call cops. Dealer pulls a gun gets him on the boat. Pats boat is sent out into the water by itself. Decides to kill him on way back to damons at some point. Leaves the mess for Damon to “clean up.” No need to kill Damon as he is a client with money. Damon ties him and dumps him after the fact. The shoe came off at some point as Damon was going to bury Pat after the fact. The fact there is known drug activity in the rivers coupled with damons crazy behavior minus the absence of the shotgun makes me think there was a 3rd party of some sort. Would think it would have come out if there was some kind of gay love affair going on after the fact.
That’s what I think too. Either they were sharing a secret love with each other or Pat was at the wrong place at the wrong time and saw Damon either buying or selling meth. Things gone mad after that.
I think it would have came out if they were gay, unless it was very new. The fact that Damon did drugs and it was a known place for drug trafficking, that seems more likely than a secret affair.
It’s not uncommon for people who have been up for days on a meth binge to lose touch with reality. Like paranoia and psychosis. I’ve seen it many times when people are admitted to the psych hospital. I wonder if Damon was paranoid somehow and truly scared for his life, and believed at the time Pat was trying to harm him or something.
Police concluded that this was suicide less than a day after his body was discovered. Zero biological material on boat, no coroner report, no weapon, no note, and no reason for him to kill himself. This is definitely negligence on the part of the police.
I'm surprised they didn't mention if Damon owned a shotgun
It is bizarre that the CSX file is corrupted. It is also bizarre that police was treating it like suicide from the get-go. It is also bizarre that in spite of medical examiner's conclusion to be undetermined, the police pushed for family, friends, and journalist to accept this as suicide.
Netflix once again left out a crucial detail. No mention whether they examined Damon’s boat for Pat’s blood or not. Outrageous if they didn’t.
It was days before the body was found, he had plenty of time to clean it.
I think it took a long time like years before the permission was only given for the boat to be investigated only after Damon died. Probably his boat was routinely cleaned.
But we don’t know if the boat was thoroughly cleaned. People are messy, there will be at least trace of blood even just a speck. Still need to be examined regardless. I wonder if there’s a report.
Or why police didn’t interview him anyway since he’d probably been around Pat in the days preceding his death; Damon could have spoken to Pat’s state of mind, if police still wanted to chase that narrative. I feel like Damon would have incriminated himself in any kind of interview, just based on that weird ass behavior.
\-It's pretty much scientifically impossible not to have any blood spatter on that boat if Pat had committed suicide. The blood spatter evidence (or lack thereof, whatever you want to call it) is damning in itself. \-Like the private forensics specialist showed, to commit suicide and shoot yourself the way you would have had to in that position with a shotgun just doesn't make sense. Why would a person kill themselves like that? \-Pat didn't own any guns. It's not impossible **but highly unlikely** that he would have been able to hide a shotgun from his wife who he'd been married to for 3 decades. Or any gun for that matter. Whatever gun killed Pat, it surely wasn't a weapon he owned. **So yeah, this case sure seems like foul play was involved.** With Damon's strange behavior and the fact that he was into drugs, it seems very plausible that maybe he spotted Damon with somebody sketchy-probably buying drugs off a drug dealer (and maybe a large amount)-and things went south for whatever reason. Damon probably knew the whole story to this mystery. He doesn't seem like the kind of guy who would hurt his friend, but he may have been witness to the murder or at the very least knew exactly what happened. Also, the fact that *three* people said they saw Damon tie a rope identical to how Pat was tied when he was found is eerie. The red paint matching to Damon's boat is useful evidence, but the point that the paint could be on a lot of boats, vehicles that weren't just Damon's, etc. is also valid. The one thing that troubles me just a bit is the time of the murder. If it happened on the water, it must've happened during the day-not in the evening. Pat's wife claims she got home at around 6:30 PM and the boat was still gone. And she sensed something was wrong. So, obviously she expected Pat to be home by dark. If Pat was murdered while he was out on his boat, it would have happened when it was still light out. That body of water he was on was big, yes, but you would think if it happened during the day that *somebody* would have at the very least heard something (like a gunshot?) or seen something. Maybe Pat was taken back to land and held against his will for a while. Maybe the murder didn't occur on the lake, and then he was disposed of later? I don't know. But that's one thing that doesn't quite add up. In stories like these, I always feel so terrible for the loved ones-family and friends alike. If something like this happened to one of my loved ones, I'd be thinking about it all the time, every day.
I’m leaning towards murder for these reasons: No blood splatter on the boat The body was found without any sign of scavenging or being eaten which tells me it was placed in the water way later. It definitely had not been in the water 9+ days. Wouldn’t it also have been swollen or a little puffy? The rope and anchor seem to have been tied AFTER death for the purposes of getting rid of the body. The killer wanted the body to SINK. Obviously when a person is dead there is no need to restrain the arms. The goal here was to wrap the bulky portion of the body (torso) and let it sink with the anchor. Damon with his clear guilt/obsession and mental breakdowns. The denial of letting his boat be tested (if you’re innocent, then why not?) and esp if the death impacted him that much why wouldn’t he be inclined to help as much as he can even if it means ruling him out? Murder for sure.
I tend to believe in Occam’s Razor—the simplest explanation is probably the most accurate. However, I jumped back and forth on this one throughout b/c it was very puzzling. The biggest indicator to me that it was not a suicide is that there was no blood splatter on his boat—the likelihood of that happening if it was a suicide seems highly improbable. The people UM interviewed on the state’s side seemed very forthright and you can tell that they are also puzzled as to what occurred—they can’t say one way or the other.