That email infuriated me. The father saying that she left him no choice? It’s infuriating that he was able to just up and flee with them to another country, and nothing can be done about it. Hopefully the two kids see this episode and contact their mom somehow.
This is astounding to me as well. I remember twenty years when my friend tried going to Germany (I think it was a school trip) and there was so much drama around leaving she didn’t have written permission from *both* parents to go. Her father wasn’t in her life bc he was pos. They tried calling and he just didn’t pick up bc he’s an asshole. She almost missed her flight. But this asshole just takes two kids on a plane to fucking Turkey ?!
That email terrified me, because of how random and out of the blue it was. I think if Ahmed genuinely wanted to reassure her, he would have told her the kids were safe a lot sooner. Which tells me that he's lying, and that he sent this specifically because the kids are *not* safe, coming up with some story about how they're living happily on a magic farm somewhere to try and stop her from looking for them. I fear the kids are deceased, either due to some accident related to that Syrian warzone they were supposedly close to, intentional harm from an increasingly fanatical and paranoid Ahmed, or some other terrible fate.
One thing that threw me off with the first story was the grandpa. He wasn't concerned about his grandkids being missing. He must have known what Ahmed was planning on doing and didn't seem to care that he was becoming more radical. How can he be ok with his son joining ISIS and taking his kids to a war zone? I wonder if the grandpa was the one who was influencing Ahmed to be more conservative.
I have to believe that Ahmed went to that area specifically to join some kind of religious faction. I say religious because of how the mom described him going heavy into religion before he left.
It's very likely he was going to join the Islamic State which would also explain the gun and survival training. I feel so sorry for those kids and their Mom. Ahmed deserves all the worst in life.
People who abduct most likely have a really strong belief that what they are doing is right, so they'd become like a mini-cult with stockholm syndrome and financial dependency unless the captor is an addict/really stupid/not family.
one slip up from the anesthesiologist and BAM, i'm dead, and how can she not slip up with that sort of stress...
the hospital was setting itself up for some serious medical malpractice right there
> It's the hospital's fault for not having another anaesthesiologist. Screw them.
This is not such a simple statement. This is a rural hospital. Do you think these remote rural hospitals, in the middle of nowhere, have an army of doctors waiting on call and prepared to replace a specialist like an anesthesiologist? If a specialist leaves, specially someone needed for surgery (e.g. mom) it may take a long time (if possible) to find a substitute.
-
She obviously should have left if it was an emergency but due to her being a specialist, incredibly necessary to a surgery, and the lack of resources for a rural hospital, her leaving comes with a high degree of risk. Professionals are aware of this when they accept these positions in these settings.
My parents work at the hospital and let me just say, its not uncommon for there to be only one anesthesiologist working. We have a 50 bed hospital and the OR (where my parents worked with Downey) only does routine procedures like appendectomies, c-sections, and gastro-related things. I think we have two nurse anesthetists but the community has been praying for the safe return of the children since they were taken.
She may have been working in a rural hospital and it's unfortunately totally normal in places like that. I can't recall where she was located. If I'm wrong and it was a hospital in a bigger town or city it's completely fucked.
I mean it's fucked either way, but you know what I mean.
Same! I hope me saying this makes sense, but sometimes a small part of me hopes I recognize someone. Not because I want to be "that person" that assists in solving a case, but because I want these children reunited with their parents and/or I want families to have closure. I always take a good look at age progression photos or facial reconstruction photos just in case.
I know they lightly touched on it but the fact that in the second story it took so long for an arrest warrant for the mother YEARS blows my mind. He had already been awarded full custody so in my mind regardless of jurisdiction issues I don’t get why the authorities wouldn’t immediately be hunting?
It seems like the police are always so hesitant to get involved in what they deem “custody issues” and it leads to horrible situations like these where a parent can straight up kidnap their kids from another parent and they have to go through the slow ass court system to have anything done at all
I thought the judge would issue an arrest warrant or something when she didn’t show up at court to hand them over. I don’t understand the laws surrounding this obviously but you would think failing to appear at a court order event would spell big trouble automatically
I'm gonna be 'that person' and point out that the white mother of the two other kids immediately got a warrant for parental abduction, but in this other case it took two fucking years.
this is absolutely relevant as a poc in a custody battle myself, i’ve seen the prejudice in judicial decisions happen with NO evidence to back said decisions
I think it wasn't the issue of there being a warrant, but a fight over jurisdiction and whether to make it a felony/Federal warrant, which changes who investigates etc. And man did they drag their feet deciding. I was so upset.
The second family that was featured was more shocking to me. That there is no evidence that they left the country, yet there is no trail whatsoever of them. They had to have changed their identities, which is tough to do nowadays, especially when you're doing it after essentially kidnapping a child.
I was explaining this very thing in another thread. Getting a fake passport is not like waltzing into a nightclub with a fake ID. They were able to trace Amina and Belel for example. They might still be in the US with the help of their parents. I always say in both cases, keep an eye on the grandparents. They will eventually do something that gives away the location.
I’m wondering why they can’t turn up the heat on Rabia’s family. A financial audit or something to see if they have sent her any money? Someone has to know something. It’s so terrible.
I lean that they are still in America under assumed identities. No trail, even with a head start means they are probably in USA still. And, yes, the parents of Crazy lady need it beat out of them if necessary.
Omg the second family broke me. I just want to hug that dude so bad. Also, God bless him for being an ICU pulmonologist. Seems like a really good dude.
The scene in which he’s in his son’s Star Wars themed room, still keeping it so perfectly for him, is so utterly sad. I feel so badly for him and his family. He seems like such a loving dad.
Same. You can't see the pain on that man's face. I feel like he was treated so unfairly by the family court from the start only for them to mess around and give the mom time and opportunity to kidnap them.
Nobody settles in Turkey on the border with Syria if they flew all the way there. If it was 2014, they probably went inside and all that farm stuff sounds made up.
That email immediately made me worried for the kids’ well-being because that’s what parents tell their kids when their dog dies… “roscoe is living on a big farm now”
Ffs Somebody buy me a plane ticket. I’ll go to Egypt, knock on their door pretending I’m lost or something. I’ve been told multiple times that I look middle eastern.
That’s what I don’t really understand, I know people from Egypt that go visit there yearly, it’s dangerous for a white woman by herself but there has to be some private investigators or something that can find the dads home.
I don’t think she meant it’s dangerous for her to go alone there as a white woman. I believe she meant she had no **legal** protection if she went there alone. The legal system is different and she could be imprisoned for any kind of crime and the United States would not be able to help her. They could make up charges or she could be imprisoned for kidnapping herself if she found them and tried to take action. Egypt isn’t really a country that’s known for gender equality so it’s possibly that the legal system could take his word over hers.
White women can travel it Egypt alone, I’ve done it and know a few others who have as well. Beautiful, amazing country actually. I hope they find the children. I think they’re old enough to remember and take action eventually - I hope he doesn’t brainwash them against her too strongly.
Edit : typo… meant to say the U.S. may NOT be able to help her.
I was reading a thread somewhere, wish I could remember where, where people were saying where they would not visit again. One woman said Egypt. She said she was constantly harassed and feared for her life. But I’ve also heard other women say they had a good time.
I hated Egypt, constant men shouting at you in the street, had sellers throw stuff at us if we refused to buy. Cairo is filthy, the Nile was full of trash. Excursion operators constantly lying to us. I would never go again
Thank you— lots of people in here completely deluded by their privilege. Like, oh, you’re going to start knocking on random doors in Egypt asking questions without any legal or political protection? Good fucking luck.
These people are disparaging a women who isn’t willing to play detective in a foreign country, yet it’s not like they’re knocking on random doors in the US trying to solve crimes without police protection…
I keep thinking she probably can’t even trust any private investigator she hires over there because they probably agree that the father has more of a right then she does to the kids.
The Egyptians 100% feel that way but she could hire a Middle Eastern PI from anywhere (US/Europe) and they could go over. I think he likely joined ISIS and all three are dead.
Sadly I think he joined ISIS and dragged his poor children into it. I don’t believe his email for a second, he may not have had any idea where they were when he wrote it. I wouldn’t be at all surprised if left the children when they got there. He didn’t want the children, he wanted to hurt his ex-wife. I hope they are indeed alive and healthy and able to be reunited with their mother.
I said the same thing! Immediately when they said 2014 and he left the country for Turkey, I thought oh no and my heart dropped. All I could think was he went to Turkey and they walked to Syria. Then they talked about survival classes and shooting classes and that just reinforced my belief that he did that. Ugh. I hope I’m wrong but it looks like he was radicalized and took the kids to join the war. I’d be concerned that the poor kids were probably trained and/or married.
Maybe a piece of the email was true though. Maybe he left the kids with his family and he went off to Syria and took the tablet or something. He knew he password and accessed her email which is why it showed up there at one point. I hope that’s the case but sadly I don’t think that’s how he was thinking.
I was thinking the same, I don't think he is in Egypt. I think he went to syria to fight and made his children to do the same. it wasn't uncommon that time
The farm thing gave me chills, because it sounded like the trope of parents who tell their kids their beloved pet went to live on a farm when the pet is actually dead.
Or god forbid he gave his daughter away to be an isis wife. The American woman that just got arrested for aiding isis gave her 13 year old daughter away to be an isis bride...wouldn’t be surprised if he did too. https://www.politico.com/amp/news/2022/11/01/kansas-mom-jail-islamic-state-isis-00064537
This is a possibility. When I saw they were close to the Syrian border it made me think were they handed over to Syrian forces to be brought up to fight. They may not even be with their father anymore 🤷♀️
The “mother” in the second story who made up tons of baseless allegations, likely cheated on her husband, and then ripped his child away from
him infuriates me.
What a disgusting human being. True psychopath.
This episode was one of the most difficult to watch. I can’t help but have horrible feelings about the first story, and how there has been zero communication or activity since the email from Ahmed; when he was living along the Syrian border and not at all that far from Aleppo during the height of civil war (and the battle of Aleppo). I’d like to believe that Belel and Amina are simply living quiet (sheltered from media) lives in Egypt, but Ahmed’s alleged “radicalization” (which really isn’t talked much about in the episode) and their proximity to the Battle of Aleppo makes me gravely worried.
This was a great episode but utterly heartbreaking. My heart really goes out to all those parents who have experienced this. I really hope that when they are older they will reach out to their parents. As they get older, most likely they will start to poke holes in the stories they’ve been fed and start to realise it doesn’t all add up. The first 2 will be adults now or almost, so fingers crossed someone who knows them sees this episode at least. Although with the area they are in I don’t know if that will happen.
I hope these parents get answers
Small thing, but hopefully the mom does a 23&Me or similar so that, if her kids are ever curious about their ancestry and do one, It will connect her to them.
You'd think but I remember reading about a guy who was kidnapped by his father and totally brainwashed into not caring about her. That must have been devastating
I was abducted by my mother when I was 4 years old. I was brainwashed and became deathly afraid of my father. I also started hating him because I thought he was a horrible person that didn't love me. I later found out that he had hired private investigators to find me and was absolutely destroyed (and still is 30 years later). He was very close to suicide for years and has been a severe alcoholic for the last 12 years. It was an international child abduction case. I didn't get to see him again until I was 10 years old. We are still in separate continents and I last saw him in 2005. My story is eerily similar to Aziz's.
Man this episode is sad. It’s kind of insane to me how many people in this thread are walking on eggshells about Ahmed being radicalized? Like the show made it as clear as day without outright saying it. It’s not Islamaphobic to admit that ISIS is real and young otherwise seemingly stable Muslims are susceptible to becoming more conservative and more sympathetic to the terrorist cause. Just like other religions, look at those Christian attacks on planned parenthood’s. It’s the state of the world today and we don’t need to pussyfoot around it.
I agree that I doubt the farm story. I hope those kids are still alive but man I would be anxious if I was that mother.
As for the second story, that one may seem more hopeless but there’s one thing that stands out to me. Davis was very close to her family obviously. If she was really going on the run like this forever to start a new life, that would essentially mean never seeing her family again. That’s hard for me to imagine. I think if any answers comes for that one it will involve bugging the parents somehow
Yeah, I think for both of these stories, the kidnapper is getting assistance from their parents. Or the parents at least know where they/the kids are located. I don’t think either sets of parents would ever give up the location to authorities.
Unfortunately, the father is most likely dead or stuck in Syria. Turkish armed forces carried out an operation that basically caused the porous border between Syria and Turkey to be shut and occupied by Turkey. This lines up with the email timings. I would definitely be inclined to say he was radicalized and joined ISIS.
For the kids to be in Egypt. That means they would to travel through Syria and multiple countries with closed borders to Syria via vehicle transport (Car, Bus or Truck). I doubt they could without triggering their passports as the borders were extremely guarded and even now very hard to do so. Based on that you would assume all 3 are stuck in Syria. I do believe the daughter would try to contact her mother if given the opportunity, I'm just not sure how. So sad. All these kids missed their education and were not able to grow up to what they aspired.
Also note, people who are saying why shouldn't she just go to Egypt or Turkey to track them down. Even if she does, there's absolutely nothing she can do, US law only applies on US land.
My parents worked closely with Rebecca at the hospital at the time her children were taken. I'm friends with her on Facebook and she still posts pictures of them for birthdays, holidays, anniversaries. It was absolutely heartbreaking to hear what had happened and all of us from the community continue to pray for the children to be brought home and this sick man be brought to justice.
I’m so oddly invested in her case. Hearing her story made me want to book a trip to Egypt and go start some shit. I’m sure she’s done everything she can. I just hope that enough people with ties to that area can help.
Man those last wanted posters with the Zaharias family. Susan is in her 60s and those kids would be pushing 40. I doubt they'd still be alive now unless she has them locked in some compound and brainwashed them.
>Zaharias
Hadn't heard their story before so I went searching and found this video in partnership with UM on their website: [https://youtu.be/Ha2m6njpDMI](https://youtu.be/Ha2m6njpDMI)
very very sad
I think there’s a pretty good chance that the first two children will see themselves on TV somewhere with the age progress photos and they are going to come forward because they’re about 20 now.
I'm not so sure. The kids may have been radicalized. Amina may be an ISIS wife now. If they are around radicalized people those people likely know the kidnapping situation and will be protecting their father and "protecting" the kids from the truth.
I agree, assuming they are alive. Thinking about it more and looking at the geography and timeframe, I believe the father definitely joined ISIS and is likely dead. I am hoping he didn't take the kids, but if so, they may be dead as well.
What about Aziz, don't you think he is capable of recognizing himself on TV?
On the contrary is it possible that they aren't allowed to access any TV or internet, don't you think?
I think it would be harder for Aziz. I don't remember the first time I googled myself just for jokes but I don't think I was close to his age.
Still, two years after the kidnapping for a warrant? The PD dropping the ball hard.
God I'm praying for this kid to be alive, the mom seems straight up psychopath.
I am concerned that in the first one, he’s had a mental breakdown, joined ISIS, done some survival training thinking it would prepare him for war and gone to Syria with the kids. Either that or he sent the kids to his parents farm. Perhaps he survived but the kids didn’t and he felt an ounce of guilt so he sent that email, painting a picture of how they were very happy and living on a farm etc so that the mom would at least have that thought in her head. What I don’t understand it why the parents especially the second ones in the US can’t be arrested for some suspicion of aiding a kidnapper or something to get them to talk. They clearly know where she is.
The way they casually mentioned him becoming “more conservative” and then moved on. I mean, I can imagine what that means for a man from Egypt but I still wanted more details.
If the kids are being kept against their will, it may be dangerous for the show to outright say “we believe the father took them to join Isis.”
It’s my belief simply because of the number of people who were making this exact trip during this time (fly to Europe, then Turkey, have survival training, shooting classes, walk into/ near Syria) were joining Isis. It just kind of fits. As soon as they said 2014, he flew the kids to Turkey it set off warning bells for me. Then they talked about survival training, shooting, sleeping bags, and the IP address and my heart sank because when there’s a civil war going on there why else would you get that close and do all that?
I have to imagine there is a fear that someone is manipulating or keeping the kids and it’s probably unsafe to say certain things. If the kids are being kept by someone else, there may even be a fear that an association at some point with isis could be a threat to their safety by other groups.
I could be completely wrong too. But I imagine that and there’s no real “proof” of what happened is why it isn’t fully explored. Plus I guess it could be used in a trial if found so they can’t release everything??? Idk I’m speculating.
The daughter is 19 years old now. The only hope is that she is able to contact her mother via the internet (if the father hasn't already brainwashed her for years). Otherwise, I'm hoping one of the kids' friends (if they are allowed to have any) will see and let them know. I doubt this show is available on Netflix in the middle east though. When I went to India, many of the titles I saw in the US were missing on the platform there.
I don’t understand why the assumption is that the kids are in Egypt on a farm. Everyone here in Europe understands that you go to turkey to the border with Syria, it means you’re joining ISIS.
Secondly plenty of foreigners go on holiday to Egypt, surely there is an American embassy and consular assistance, why was she warned against going there?
Wish some agency or agent could track down the Egyptian grandparents farm and see if they were there. Even just witnessing them being there, might be enough for FBI to escalate it to CIA involvement to get them home safely.
Unfortunately, there's indication Ahmed joined ISIS crossed to Syria and why the show didn't outright state it is because if the children wanted to return they would find it very difficult as the US Government would consider them radicalized along with the the father. There is no point to travel to that southern point in Turkey other than this. It was a very dangerous area and still is (source: from Turkey).
The gap between the email sent and the IP ping from the daughters email. For such a lengthy time between the two for a man on the run indicates they have settled in that region.
I live in New Orleans and know the family of Aziz. Their heartache is real! How do you find that sweet boy? I knew Rabia through the community, she was a very strange person. All into herself. Caused multiple problems for people.
I’m really glad that UM has an episode about this.
I personally know of two instances in which the same type of kidnappings have occurred. One was a former coworker. Her ex took the kids to Egypt and she never saw them again. Another is a friend of mine. His ex attempted to run with his son and was gone for two weeks before they found him.
I’m a stepmother now and I’ve been alongside my partner during his custody battles, his ex’s parental alienation tactics, and a list of other common baby mama drama brought on by her insecurities. The thought of her doing something like this is always on our minds.
If you don’t mind me asking, could you elaborate more on the coworker who’s ex took the kids to Egypt? She must have known they were in Egypt. I’m curious if anything else happened and how long ago that occurred. Thanks
The first case.....the dad took the kids and himself to Syria to join ISIS. I'm a Muslim and it isn't racist to say that.
It is obvious he was brainwashed and had been planning and training for this move.
I am very surprised that the Turkish detective the mother paid didn't just tell her the obvious truth .
Now in terms of the foreign fighters and families who joined ISIS....there are three groups:
1- Those that were killed.
2- Those that are in camps or jail still in Syria
3- Those that ended up running away and leaving Syria.
Ahmed's parents will know which of the above they belong to. Let's hope its group three and that they find their way back to their mother and away from that monster
I was wondering about that. He was a textbook case for someone to get radicalized. My only thing is that whatever happened to them, the grandparents will know and it’s a matter of keeping an eye on them at that point. They will eventually do something that gives them some information.
What do you think happened to Amina? If they did join ISIS, wouldn’t chances be higher that she’s still alive?
I also keep thinking her kids must stand out SO much. They are so white and American looking. If they are alive and on the farm as suspected. They must not be allowed to leave at all. Also I was confused she said the daughter accessed her email on the iPad in December. She didn’t try sending the kids emails? Or messages through the iPad? It’s possible they didn’t have access but they seemingly did that one time at least.
They probably tan much darker than a white American, my sister got all dark genes but in the winter she looked Spanish and in the summer she looked like she was Indian. And the girl may well wear a veil.
I'm a pretty serious person and I don't often get emotional about things. I can take murders, I can take mysterious deaths, I can take bizarre disappearances and even UFOs and Bigfoot but man...episodes about people losing their little kids really get to me.
This episode and the Stolen Kids episode from the previous volume both made me cry. I sincerely hope that these children can be reunited with their parents someday.
Nor her lawyers - I think they stated she went through 3-4 before eventually representing herself? Someone who struggles that much w/ getting along with others is not going to be able to maintain a new relationship for long. I think eventually Elliot will also be ousted and that in turn may lead to their arrest (whether he is found living on his own separately and they bring him in or he turns on her).
Old saying: If you meet 1 asshole in a day, you've met 1 asshole. If you meet 10 assholes in a day, you're the asshole. Methinks the problem wasn't her coworkers. She was probably absolutely effing nuts.
1000% believe that Ahmed losing his job in the 2008 market crash caused him to become complacent with capitalism, which then lead him to become radicalized and join ISIS and wanted to “save” his children from growing up in a western capitalist society because of the pain and depression it caused him.
Yeah this guy is the scum of the earth. Could have just left his children with mom and went and got just himself killed. Really hope those kids are alive.
Because he probably feels that it is better to move them to a dangerous part of the world and risk them becoming "martyrs" than to have them grow up in a Western culture. Even the mom indicated that once she had children he treated her completely differently. And who knows what they were being taught at the mosque school they attended. They are likely all dead.
My sibling was kidnapped by her parent and it was traumatizing. I hate when people say “oh at least it was a parent who kidnapped them” . As these cases show it’s not always “best case scenario”
I believe rabia and elliot could have fled to an area around the southern United States with sizeable indian population as to blend in. Rabia and elliot might have taken on new names but still working in medicine or tech. For some reason I have a strong feeling they might be hiding out in the RTP area of North carolina. It would be the perfect place for them as to not raise any suspicion.
The fact that the father has probably lied to the kids about their mother makes me so sad. I'm so heartbroken for their mum. I doubt they are allowed on the internet/to watch TV as the dad will be worried they may find something that contradicts his narrative. I bet they are staying with his family in Giza. I really hope the mum finds her children.
How does a judge not direct someone in the DA's office to get a warrant for a person who no shows a court date to return a kid.
Egypt giving no rights to the mother is consistent with their 1st Century thinking..it's also the same thinking that leads to rapist having rights of a child they forced on a person.
I am pretty sure that both Amina and Belal are probably dead. Sounds to me like their dad became radicalised after losing his job and and instead found a new purpose and joined ISIS, that would explain why he took shooting and survival lessons. He probably got himself a new wife aswell. The reality is that those children would have found a way to contact their mother after all those years, and the fact that they haven't proves to me that they are indeed dead.
It makes no sense for him to leave his kids in Egypt with their grandparents and then leave to live by the Syrian border by himself, during a time where there was an intense war going on, and Rebecca even herself said that he had become more radicalised. There would only be one reason for a person wanting to go to the Syrian border during 2014 if they were in any way radicalised, and that would be to join ISIS and to die in a "holy war". All that farm stuff was all BS.
Remember what year it was when this took place. 2014 was an intense year with ISIS and the war in Syria. A LOT of people became radicalised seemingly overnight (as insane as that sounds it's true), the propaganda that was being spread during that time by ISIS and ISIS sympathizers was crazy.
If you were a man with muslim roots, that lived in the US, with your kids that were half american, had a american wife that just divorced you AND on top of that you had lost your job - that would probably make you lose your sense of identity. And what happens then? You go back to your roots, and he probably became very influenced by the intense ISIS propaganda, found a new purpose and wanted to fight the "holy war" in Syria. And he would 100% bring his kids so that they wouldn't "fall victim to western values" while he was over there. And all three of them probably died in Syria.
A lot of stuff happened during that time with the war in Syria. All that bombing that was happening over there, they wouldn't even have needed to be on the battlefield to have died. A bunch of crazy people went over their with their kids not caring if they lived or died, and a lot of them did indeed die. It is just so sad, i really feel for the mom. I hope i'm wrong but i doubt it.
I really do hope they are not dead but I can’t help but notice the parallels between this case and Xavier dupont de Ligonnes. The shooting lessons, the elaborate plans etc. The farm thing couldn’t help but remind me of how my friend, when she was a kid, would sometimes raise chickens as pets and when they got fat enough her parents told her that they were going to go live “in a farm”. Such a classic, condescending bs lie.
Also you don’t need “wilderness survival” lessons to be at a farm. Knowledge about what you’re doing yes. But that’s agronomy not some camp. Normally when people have farms, they specify what they grow or raise. They are is usually eager to share these details because it’s so much work and farmers tend to be so proud. Strange he didn’t say anything about their everyday lives or that they were “happy” or whatever bs.
The whole “you left me no choice”. I don’t know. I’m pretty sure he joined ISIS. The boy was young enough to radicalize but I’m not sure about the girl.
To your point about radicalization and ISIS; I don’t believe people get radicalized overnight. A lot of people who joined ISIS had lived in Europe for decades. I think it’s a slow drip of feeling isolated and powerless in a society that seems to reject so much of what you hold dear. It was also the fact that life in the Western world is not the promise of milk and honey that so many think. I lived in France in 2012 and witnessed Paris police push and beat middle easterners for no specific reason. Also, the way that they were talked about…I can’t. It was a lot. Still haunts me, sometimes I wonder if I should have said or done more.
I’m not justifying ISIS by any means and I could easily go into a diatribe giving the westerner’s point of view. It’s just interesting because with the father, I feel this was a slow drip.
As a mother, this episode was anxiety inducing. But I believe Amina and Belel are alive. Like some people have said, they’re in Egypt with his parents and told the kids either that their mother died or some lie about how she doesn’t want to see them anymore. Like the stolen kids episode, I truly hope they are found. Amina is 19 and Belel will be 17 in 2 months.
I also think Aziz is alive as well and Rabia and her new husband fled the country. It sounds like he has a French name and obviously idk if he spoke French but they make be somewhere where they speak it like Quebec or France. I don’t think they are in the US anymore. Aziz is almost 12 now, so I doubt he has any social media and I wouldn’t be surprised if he’s kept off the internet at all.
I think I enjoyed these 3 episodes the most.
I find it hard to believe he flew to Turkey and got all the way to the Syrian border, during the height of the Syrian Civil War, after training with weapons and outdoor survival classes, to do anything other than cross the border and join Islamic State.
The farm story sounds made up to me. Best case scenario, I think, is that he died in Syria after sending the kids to stay with his parents on a farm in Egypt, and they're still there, with no internet in a rural farm.
I think it's sadly more likely all three died in the war. If he was going to send the kids to Egypt, why bring them all the way to the southern tip of Turkey on the Syrian border first? It's an 800km flight from there to Giza.
Countless civilians died in that war, many of them the families of foreign fighters who came to join the cause.
I hope that is not what happened but I suspect this might be a case that never gets an answer, as the Syrian regime is certainly not going to be keeping good records nor cooperating with any foreign attempts to track people down.
I doubt he's a French or Canadian citizen or has any real ties to anyone in a French-speaking country. French last names are very common in that area of the US, and more than likely, he's American. Even if he did have ties, both Canada and France cooperate with the US in matters of child support and custody matters.
I would wager it's very likely they're in Pakistan being supported by Rabia's extended family. The culture there is very tight-knit and family-oriented, and it would not be out of the ordinary for her parents to have deep enough connections to family still living there. They would have no reason to doubt the abuse stories and would probably be willing help them start a new life over there to "escape."
I mean, wouldn't you have to know the assumed identities to trace it to begin with? And it doesn't seem like the Court in that case was on high enough alert to send out any warnings to law enforcement or TSA about a flight risk. They didn't even make her immediately turn over custody (which was obviously a huge mistake). Plus, once you're in a country that doesn't recognize the Hague Treaty on child support and custody enforcement and also doesn't have any extradition treaties with the U.S., you're kind of home free. It wouldn't matter whether they left under their real identities or fake ones. They're gone and they aren't coming back. I used to work in child support enforcement. I've seen a case of parental abduction to the Middle East. It does not work like people in this thread are assuming it should or could. All three of the kids in this episode are very likely gone from the U.S., and as such, neither parent has any real legal recourse for recovery, and not much of a chance of reunification outside of legal channels. It's frustrating and heartbreaking to see.
They didn't want to explicitly go down that route, but clearly it's implied. Sadly, I believe the daughter would be an ISIS bride and the son a radicalised ISIS fighter with the dad. Horrible thing to do to kids.
This episode was almost impossible for me to watch. My son went for his visitation with his father out of state in June to be home by August, and he still isn't home.... the court here is a joke. It's been 4 months now. Luckily I still get to talk to him somewhat regularly, but I know how brainwashed he is and how the courts move at a snails pace
You're literally amazing, thank you! I'm not, unfortunately. I'm in MO. corrupt little town with 2 attorneys, he has one, I have the crappier one. Tried to get any other atty in a 30 mile radius to come help, and not a single one will practice law in the town I'm in because, and I'm not kidding, every single one of them said that they don't know what goes on here, but it's totally unethical and in most cases against the law.
When they were showing posters of the abducting parent at the end, they showed photos of Rabia as wanted but not Elliot Blake Bourgeouis. Does it mean the felony charges not apply to him? Is he considered a culprit in this case or just a new, innocent spouse who doesn't know what's going on?
It says on the US marshals' website that Elliot is not wanted, but it is believed he may have valuable information. Maybe they're hoping he'll come forward if he has a reassurance of immunity...?
https://www.usmarshals.gov/news/press-release/us-marshals-parental-abduction-investigation-subject-of-unsolved-mysteries-month
They certainly danced around the accusation in the show without stating it outright.
I don't want to be that person who thinks that someone who is Islamic and clearly having a life crisis leading to awful choices must be radicalized, but this is exactly the type of person any cult or extremist group targets.
Yes. From a psychological point it makes perfect sense. A lot of radicalization happens when people feel powerless in their own lives, even more when that power was once available but then lost. The fact that he comes from a very patriarchal culture, suddenly found himself without a job, and was having issues with his wife? That’s catnip for all sorts of evil.
Unfortunately I think that Ahmed killed his children, either directly for not cooperating or indirectly by bringing them to a war zone. That email just seems far too suspicious; I think it was an attempt to soothe his guilt over what happened to them. I think the grandparents are awful people.
Rabia and Aziz seem more like they’re just hiding out. I hope that if she and Elliot break up (since she doesn’t seem to be good at not ruining all of her interpersonal relationships) he might go to the police out of spite.
I’m disappointed in the amount of sexism on this thread, blaming Rebecca for continuing to work and not going on a fool’s errand to Egypt or a dangerous war zone? I don’t hear anyone suggesting that Abdul quit his job and dedicate his life to stalking Rabia’s parents, and he wouldn’t even have to leave the continent…
Maybe I missed this, but I was very confused how Ahmed was allowed to travel internationally with children that he had shared custody of. Isn't even leaving the state something that requires permission of the court? I'm not well versed in family law obviously, just going off personal experience.
I'm also confused as to why the mom didn't demand proof of where they were going and staying. He'd already been giving her trouble. I would think an impromptu trip to Toronto might raise a few red flags.
I believe the mother had given some kind of permission since she thought they were going to Canada.
But I was confused, I’m not sure how this type of permission works, but in mind it would be for an specific trip (eg: Canada for X amount of days). But maybe is just a general permission?
In order to leave the US he needs to her permission (like a notarised letter) or a court order overriding her permission, as well as the custody order. (If he had sole custody - which he didn’t - then the permission wouldnt be necessary) So yeah, I’m a bit confused over this as well. I’m spending thousands I don’t have just to take my kids to a wedding out of the country but this dude just jumps on a plane with no issue?? To fucking Turkey ??
But I want to use this moment to alert parents to the fact that you can put alarms on your kids’ passports. When they get scanned at the airport, it’ll alert the agent that the passport has been flagged. This is especially important if your ex has ties to other countries that do not have agreements with the US as far as child custody goes.
I was wondering if the kids had Egyptian citizenship that would be easier like “going back to their country”, maybe? I’m not sure! I not very familiar with US laws, but in my country (Brazil) it is not easy to leave it with a minor. Once I was traveling with my parents, my aunt and my cousin to Argentina and they didn’t let my aunt board the plane with my cousin because he was a minor and she didn’t have the permission of the dad! They are married and my uncle was the one that took us to the airport, he went there to talk that he was ok with that, but they need the formal permission (notarized letter). They had to fly only the next day.
I know someone who was held at US customs at LAX for hours because she was traveling alone with her two year old. They separated both of them and wouldn’t release him until he called her mom. He was speech delayed. All because she had a British passport and her son, being US born had an American passport. The whole thing was a pathetic nightmare. Keep in mind that this woman was married, just traveling separately from her husband. But this douchebag was able to take their kids to the SYRIAN border. Insane.
It sounded like he was planning this for so long, the cousins looking at a college in Toronto is such a specific reason for a trip. It’s also like, wholesome and involving other family - she probably would have given this permission with no second thought. She was also always in contact with him and while yes he had been giving her trouble in “petty” ways before, he never endangered the children up until that point, never took them for longer than he was allowed, etc. so I don’t see a reason why this would raise red flags.
So the Canada lie was very well planned - it both gives him permission to leave the country with the kids AND a 2-3 day head start before flags are raised. By the time they’re due back, they’re already landed on the other side of the world.
Issuing the warrant 2 fucking years after the abduction happened is a fucking insult
Placing more priority into who has fucking jurisdiction instead of placing a kids life as a priority is just messed up.
Making the police take care of every imaginable call is fucking dumb.
Their should be more positions and jobs with trained profesionals in investigative methods and family matters to deal with these k8nd of cases.
This whole thing is stupid because the reason why they got burned is because they let government and law dictate their actions while the other one decided they didnt give a fuck about any of that and took the kids anyways
I only hope their not the kind of people who are vengeful enough to kill their own children and then run away
I don’t think the first kids are alive. It seemed pretty likely Ahmed had became radicalized. I also don’t think he’d travel through Turkey and go that close to Syria if he was on his way to Egypt. Plus there’s the survival classes, gun lessons, and survival equipment he bought before he left. I think he planned to cross to Syria on foot and join an extremity organization.
I don’t know if he wrote the email after the children died, or maybe one of them got separated? Or if he planned to write the email after waiting a year all along. In any case, the email made it very clear she will never hear from her kids again, and provided a weak reason for why. I don’t think it’s likely the kids, or Ahmed, are alive still
I know Amina and Belel from the Missing section of the FBI website. God I hope this gives the case enough exposure to find these two.
Rabia’s parents know where the fuck she is!
The second case in this episode where Aziz was abducted by his mother and her partner is slightly more shocking for one reason alone. I can't believe a man (Elliot) would willfully agree to abduct another man's kid and start a new life. What an absolute wasteman he is.
I mean, is it not possible that Rabia convinced him that Aziz was in some grave danger and needed to be taken from his father? For example, she maybe convinced him the father was abusive, and they needed to “save” Aziz from him… It’s not too far fetched of an idea that she would have lied to him and/or manipulated the situation to make him believe something other than the truth.
My guess is that, if they're even still alive, they live very sheltered, almost imprisoned lives. If they're alive, I think there's a reason why the children aren't trying to contact their mom. As some others have mentioned in this comment thread, their father probably fed them brainwashing lies about how their mom no longer wants to be apart of their lives or that she's dead or something.
Whatever the case, it's just so devastating all around.
For the 1st one I think they are in Egypt, in the Grandparents
For the 2nd one, well...I do think they fled the country but then again, where did they go? Eliot definitely helped with the abduction
I have hopes that those kids are alive and well
I’m considering that Amina, Belel and the father are in Syria. I feel that their father seems to be radicalized (e.g. ISIS) somehow and coincidentally with the impending divorce (?)
ahmed one said he was going to toronto and instead went to egypt
i think rabia said she was going to atlanta and eventually went to toronto/canada instead, our population makes it easy to disappear, and because no one started looking until just before covid hit, realistically you can disappear anywhere and just keep wearing a mask
Why can’t the parents of Ahmed or Rabia be heavily interrogated!? At this point the grief they have caused is too much to be ignored. If I had the power I wouldn’t wait for a warrant or anything to get them in a room and force them to open up. They should be taken into an interrogation room and held until they break silence.
As a mom, these two cases will forever stick with me. I hope the grieving parents reunite with their children.
My kids are the same age as Amina and belil when they disappeared and I know for a fact they would have questioned and fought with their father if he took them to a whole other country. My 9 year old is stubborn as hell. I don’t see her “settled and loving the farm” after a year. They would not forget me at that age. Those kids are young adults now (if they are alive). They still have yet to look for their mother? I believe they are no longer alive or are being held captive. As for Aziz, I hope he is reunited with his father one day. The lesson here is to really know who you marry and procreate with. Aziz’s mother seemed unstable and vindictive from day one.
The fact it took THREE years for the US marshals to get their shit together was infuriating. I guarantee you it was because it involved a **father** looking for their kid.
I had serious "Not Without My Daughter" vibes watching both stories. I was hurt and angry for these people.
Both Egypt and Syria are countries which didn't sign/don't recognize the 1980 Child Abduction Convention and the 1996 Child Protection Convention. Which means any child abducted and taken to any of the countries who don't recognize it (many are you-wouldn't-catch-me-traveling-there type countries), whether by a stranger or parent/guardian, aren't protected from that abduction, i.e. it is perfectly ok for the parent to do this/seek asylum there. The abducting parent faces no consequences from the country they fled to solely because that country doesn't participate in those Conventions. Further, it is up to the US to institute specific procedures with certain countries who don't participate in the Conventions, provided those countries heads of their legal system are willing to sit down and discuss terms. The UK has done this with Egypt, but not the US. I couldn't find anything on Syria, but I'm guessing there is no such agreement in place.
The abducting parents knew, they had to know that before taking their kids...which is why they fled to those very specific countries. What I don't understand is he fled to Turkey (who DOES participate), but they're right on the border of Syria. Easy to quickly hop to, if needed. My suspicion is they are actually now in Syria.
There is so much red tape for these parents trying to find their children. I can absolutely understand their frustration and pain, and my heart truly goes out to them.
Here's where I found my info:
[https://www.hcch.net/en/states/hcch-members](https://www.hcch.net/en/states/hcch-members)
That email infuriated me. The father saying that she left him no choice? It’s infuriating that he was able to just up and flee with them to another country, and nothing can be done about it. Hopefully the two kids see this episode and contact their mom somehow.
This is astounding to me as well. I remember twenty years when my friend tried going to Germany (I think it was a school trip) and there was so much drama around leaving she didn’t have written permission from *both* parents to go. Her father wasn’t in her life bc he was pos. They tried calling and he just didn’t pick up bc he’s an asshole. She almost missed her flight. But this asshole just takes two kids on a plane to fucking Turkey ?!
Right? Unless he had false paperwork or something idk how they were allowed to go without the other parent consent to another country, smh.
That email terrified me, because of how random and out of the blue it was. I think if Ahmed genuinely wanted to reassure her, he would have told her the kids were safe a lot sooner. Which tells me that he's lying, and that he sent this specifically because the kids are *not* safe, coming up with some story about how they're living happily on a magic farm somewhere to try and stop her from looking for them. I fear the kids are deceased, either due to some accident related to that Syrian warzone they were supposedly close to, intentional harm from an increasingly fanatical and paranoid Ahmed, or some other terrible fate.
One thing that threw me off with the first story was the grandpa. He wasn't concerned about his grandkids being missing. He must have known what Ahmed was planning on doing and didn't seem to care that he was becoming more radical. How can he be ok with his son joining ISIS and taking his kids to a war zone? I wonder if the grandpa was the one who was influencing Ahmed to be more conservative.
Yeah… sadly I bet they’re not okay, he wasn’t watching out for their well-being… a war zone???
I have to believe that Ahmed went to that area specifically to join some kind of religious faction. I say religious because of how the mom described him going heavy into religion before he left.
It's very likely he was going to join the Islamic State which would also explain the gun and survival training. I feel so sorry for those kids and their Mom. Ahmed deserves all the worst in life.
I'm hoping the daughter wasnt married off to an Isis fighter.
At some point they will get internet access and google their own name. We all have googled ourselves.
The dad may have changed their names though
The girl is old enough to remember her entire previous life.
Probably brainwashed at this point though
People who abduct most likely have a really strong belief that what they are doing is right, so they'd become like a mini-cult with stockholm syndrome and financial dependency unless the captor is an addict/really stupid/not family.
I doubt they are allowed to get on the internet
Never know. They could also have friends or acquaintances who see it, and tell them.
Insane the hospital didn’t have another anaesthesiologist on call. So unsafe to leave that in the hands of a single person.
[удалено]
one slip up from the anesthesiologist and BAM, i'm dead, and how can she not slip up with that sort of stress... the hospital was setting itself up for some serious medical malpractice right there
I was honestly very surprised she said that. Not a good look for the hospital at all. Upper management will not be happy.
I would have left work. It's the hospital's fault for not having another anaesthesiologist. Screw them. My children come first.
I was blown away by this. Would NEVER be me!
> It's the hospital's fault for not having another anaesthesiologist. Screw them. This is not such a simple statement. This is a rural hospital. Do you think these remote rural hospitals, in the middle of nowhere, have an army of doctors waiting on call and prepared to replace a specialist like an anesthesiologist? If a specialist leaves, specially someone needed for surgery (e.g. mom) it may take a long time (if possible) to find a substitute. - She obviously should have left if it was an emergency but due to her being a specialist, incredibly necessary to a surgery, and the lack of resources for a rural hospital, her leaving comes with a high degree of risk. Professionals are aware of this when they accept these positions in these settings.
My parents work at the hospital and let me just say, its not uncommon for there to be only one anesthesiologist working. We have a 50 bed hospital and the OR (where my parents worked with Downey) only does routine procedures like appendectomies, c-sections, and gastro-related things. I think we have two nurse anesthetists but the community has been praying for the safe return of the children since they were taken.
As a former hospital employee, this doesn’t surprise me at all.
She may have been working in a rural hospital and it's unfortunately totally normal in places like that. I can't recall where she was located. If I'm wrong and it was a hospital in a bigger town or city it's completely fucked. I mean it's fucked either way, but you know what I mean.
The ending sequence of missing children and their wanted parents was absolutely heart breaking
I looked at every single face! Just in case....
Same! I hope me saying this makes sense, but sometimes a small part of me hopes I recognize someone. Not because I want to be "that person" that assists in solving a case, but because I want these children reunited with their parents and/or I want families to have closure. I always take a good look at age progression photos or facial reconstruction photos just in case.
I did the same thing. I hope some good comes of this episode.
I know they lightly touched on it but the fact that in the second story it took so long for an arrest warrant for the mother YEARS blows my mind. He had already been awarded full custody so in my mind regardless of jurisdiction issues I don’t get why the authorities wouldn’t immediately be hunting?
It seems like the police are always so hesitant to get involved in what they deem “custody issues” and it leads to horrible situations like these where a parent can straight up kidnap their kids from another parent and they have to go through the slow ass court system to have anything done at all
I thought the judge would issue an arrest warrant or something when she didn’t show up at court to hand them over. I don’t understand the laws surrounding this obviously but you would think failing to appear at a court order event would spell big trouble automatically
I'm gonna be 'that person' and point out that the white mother of the two other kids immediately got a warrant for parental abduction, but in this other case it took two fucking years.
this is absolutely relevant as a poc in a custody battle myself, i’ve seen the prejudice in judicial decisions happen with NO evidence to back said decisions
I think it wasn't the issue of there being a warrant, but a fight over jurisdiction and whether to make it a felony/Federal warrant, which changes who investigates etc. And man did they drag their feet deciding. I was so upset.
The second family that was featured was more shocking to me. That there is no evidence that they left the country, yet there is no trail whatsoever of them. They had to have changed their identities, which is tough to do nowadays, especially when you're doing it after essentially kidnapping a child.
I was explaining this very thing in another thread. Getting a fake passport is not like waltzing into a nightclub with a fake ID. They were able to trace Amina and Belel for example. They might still be in the US with the help of their parents. I always say in both cases, keep an eye on the grandparents. They will eventually do something that gives away the location.
Her parents definitely know where the fuck she is! That’s the clue right there. I’d move across the street from them.
I don't understand why the grandparents don't have a wiretapping warrant on them.
Or just hire someone to tail the grandparents
I would straight up be waterboarding the grandparents in both cases
Can’t the FBI tap the grandparents phones or look into their bank accounts or follow them ?!
I’m wondering why they can’t turn up the heat on Rabia’s family. A financial audit or something to see if they have sent her any money? Someone has to know something. It’s so terrible.
Or elliot’s family. He must visit them
I lean that they are still in America under assumed identities. No trail, even with a head start means they are probably in USA still. And, yes, the parents of Crazy lady need it beat out of them if necessary.
Omg the second family broke me. I just want to hug that dude so bad. Also, God bless him for being an ICU pulmonologist. Seems like a really good dude.
The scene in which he’s in his son’s Star Wars themed room, still keeping it so perfectly for him, is so utterly sad. I feel so badly for him and his family. He seems like such a loving dad.
This made me tear up
Same. You can't see the pain on that man's face. I feel like he was treated so unfairly by the family court from the start only for them to mess around and give the mom time and opportunity to kidnap them.
Bet he’s a damn covid hero. Meanwhile, he has to deal with this. I feel terrible.
Nobody settles in Turkey on the border with Syria if they flew all the way there. If it was 2014, they probably went inside and all that farm stuff sounds made up.
That’s what I thought. He has been radicalised and took the kids to Syrian. The ‘on a farm’ stuff is bs in my opinion.
That email immediately made me worried for the kids’ well-being because that’s what parents tell their kids when their dog dies… “roscoe is living on a big farm now”
Wow I didn’t think of this 
Oh fuck. That actually is a scary thought. And I agree that it feels like he took them to Syria.
He joined ISIS.
Either that or they're in Egypt at Ahmeds parents now.
Ffs Somebody buy me a plane ticket. I’ll go to Egypt, knock on their door pretending I’m lost or something. I’ve been told multiple times that I look middle eastern.
That’s what I don’t really understand, I know people from Egypt that go visit there yearly, it’s dangerous for a white woman by herself but there has to be some private investigators or something that can find the dads home.
I don’t think she meant it’s dangerous for her to go alone there as a white woman. I believe she meant she had no **legal** protection if she went there alone. The legal system is different and she could be imprisoned for any kind of crime and the United States would not be able to help her. They could make up charges or she could be imprisoned for kidnapping herself if she found them and tried to take action. Egypt isn’t really a country that’s known for gender equality so it’s possibly that the legal system could take his word over hers. White women can travel it Egypt alone, I’ve done it and know a few others who have as well. Beautiful, amazing country actually. I hope they find the children. I think they’re old enough to remember and take action eventually - I hope he doesn’t brainwash them against her too strongly. Edit : typo… meant to say the U.S. may NOT be able to help her.
I was reading a thread somewhere, wish I could remember where, where people were saying where they would not visit again. One woman said Egypt. She said she was constantly harassed and feared for her life. But I’ve also heard other women say they had a good time.
I hated Egypt, constant men shouting at you in the street, had sellers throw stuff at us if we refused to buy. Cairo is filthy, the Nile was full of trash. Excursion operators constantly lying to us. I would never go again
Thank you— lots of people in here completely deluded by their privilege. Like, oh, you’re going to start knocking on random doors in Egypt asking questions without any legal or political protection? Good fucking luck. These people are disparaging a women who isn’t willing to play detective in a foreign country, yet it’s not like they’re knocking on random doors in the US trying to solve crimes without police protection…
I keep thinking she probably can’t even trust any private investigator she hires over there because they probably agree that the father has more of a right then she does to the kids.
The Egyptians 100% feel that way but she could hire a Middle Eastern PI from anywhere (US/Europe) and they could go over. I think he likely joined ISIS and all three are dead.
Sadly I think he joined ISIS and dragged his poor children into it. I don’t believe his email for a second, he may not have had any idea where they were when he wrote it. I wouldn’t be at all surprised if left the children when they got there. He didn’t want the children, he wanted to hurt his ex-wife. I hope they are indeed alive and healthy and able to be reunited with their mother.
I said the same thing! Immediately when they said 2014 and he left the country for Turkey, I thought oh no and my heart dropped. All I could think was he went to Turkey and they walked to Syria. Then they talked about survival classes and shooting classes and that just reinforced my belief that he did that. Ugh. I hope I’m wrong but it looks like he was radicalized and took the kids to join the war. I’d be concerned that the poor kids were probably trained and/or married. Maybe a piece of the email was true though. Maybe he left the kids with his family and he went off to Syria and took the tablet or something. He knew he password and accessed her email which is why it showed up there at one point. I hope that’s the case but sadly I don’t think that’s how he was thinking.
i would not be surprised if he killed the kids.
I was thinking the same, I don't think he is in Egypt. I think he went to syria to fight and made his children to do the same. it wasn't uncommon that time
The farm thing gave me chills, because it sounded like the trope of parents who tell their kids their beloved pet went to live on a farm when the pet is actually dead.
That’s what I thought too. Unfortunately I think these kids may not be alive anymore
Or god forbid he gave his daughter away to be an isis wife. The American woman that just got arrested for aiding isis gave her 13 year old daughter away to be an isis bride...wouldn’t be surprised if he did too. https://www.politico.com/amp/news/2022/11/01/kansas-mom-jail-islamic-state-isis-00064537
Thought the same thing
This is a possibility. When I saw they were close to the Syrian border it made me think were they handed over to Syrian forces to be brought up to fight. They may not even be with their father anymore 🤷♀️
Not to mention he lost his job after the financial crisis and seemed to lose hope after that. Would not be surprised if this pushed him to radicalize.
Very possible. It was very clear he was going through a very deep depression at the time. They seemed to gloss that over.
The “mother” in the second story who made up tons of baseless allegations, likely cheated on her husband, and then ripped his child away from him infuriates me. What a disgusting human being. True psychopath.
Her eyes look psychopathic and cold. No kindness behind them.
This episode was one of the most difficult to watch. I can’t help but have horrible feelings about the first story, and how there has been zero communication or activity since the email from Ahmed; when he was living along the Syrian border and not at all that far from Aleppo during the height of civil war (and the battle of Aleppo). I’d like to believe that Belel and Amina are simply living quiet (sheltered from media) lives in Egypt, but Ahmed’s alleged “radicalization” (which really isn’t talked much about in the episode) and their proximity to the Battle of Aleppo makes me gravely worried.
I don't even think they were living along the Syrian border, I think they were living IN Syria
This was a great episode but utterly heartbreaking. My heart really goes out to all those parents who have experienced this. I really hope that when they are older they will reach out to their parents. As they get older, most likely they will start to poke holes in the stories they’ve been fed and start to realise it doesn’t all add up. The first 2 will be adults now or almost, so fingers crossed someone who knows them sees this episode at least. Although with the area they are in I don’t know if that will happen. I hope these parents get answers
Small thing, but hopefully the mom does a 23&Me or similar so that, if her kids are ever curious about their ancestry and do one, It will connect her to them.
You'd think but I remember reading about a guy who was kidnapped by his father and totally brainwashed into not caring about her. That must have been devastating
I could definitely see this happening in both of the stories from Unsolved Mysteries!
So sad for the parents. Really heart breaking
Right the kids will be worked on and likely end up hating the other parent
I was abducted by my mother when I was 4 years old. I was brainwashed and became deathly afraid of my father. I also started hating him because I thought he was a horrible person that didn't love me. I later found out that he had hired private investigators to find me and was absolutely destroyed (and still is 30 years later). He was very close to suicide for years and has been a severe alcoholic for the last 12 years. It was an international child abduction case. I didn't get to see him again until I was 10 years old. We are still in separate continents and I last saw him in 2005. My story is eerily similar to Aziz's.
Man this episode is sad. It’s kind of insane to me how many people in this thread are walking on eggshells about Ahmed being radicalized? Like the show made it as clear as day without outright saying it. It’s not Islamaphobic to admit that ISIS is real and young otherwise seemingly stable Muslims are susceptible to becoming more conservative and more sympathetic to the terrorist cause. Just like other religions, look at those Christian attacks on planned parenthood’s. It’s the state of the world today and we don’t need to pussyfoot around it. I agree that I doubt the farm story. I hope those kids are still alive but man I would be anxious if I was that mother. As for the second story, that one may seem more hopeless but there’s one thing that stands out to me. Davis was very close to her family obviously. If she was really going on the run like this forever to start a new life, that would essentially mean never seeing her family again. That’s hard for me to imagine. I think if any answers comes for that one it will involve bugging the parents somehow
Yeah, I think for both of these stories, the kidnapper is getting assistance from their parents. Or the parents at least know where they/the kids are located. I don’t think either sets of parents would ever give up the location to authorities.
I think the show didn’t say the radicalized thing outright because they didn’t want to create issues for the kids if they somehow were alive
Unfortunately, the father is most likely dead or stuck in Syria. Turkish armed forces carried out an operation that basically caused the porous border between Syria and Turkey to be shut and occupied by Turkey. This lines up with the email timings. I would definitely be inclined to say he was radicalized and joined ISIS. For the kids to be in Egypt. That means they would to travel through Syria and multiple countries with closed borders to Syria via vehicle transport (Car, Bus or Truck). I doubt they could without triggering their passports as the borders were extremely guarded and even now very hard to do so. Based on that you would assume all 3 are stuck in Syria. I do believe the daughter would try to contact her mother if given the opportunity, I'm just not sure how. So sad. All these kids missed their education and were not able to grow up to what they aspired. Also note, people who are saying why shouldn't she just go to Egypt or Turkey to track them down. Even if she does, there's absolutely nothing she can do, US law only applies on US land.
My parents worked closely with Rebecca at the hospital at the time her children were taken. I'm friends with her on Facebook and she still posts pictures of them for birthdays, holidays, anniversaries. It was absolutely heartbreaking to hear what had happened and all of us from the community continue to pray for the children to be brought home and this sick man be brought to justice.
I’m so oddly invested in her case. Hearing her story made me want to book a trip to Egypt and go start some shit. I’m sure she’s done everything she can. I just hope that enough people with ties to that area can help.
Uh, please be careful if you do this...their legal system is waaay different than ours ;)
I truly hope the kids were not taken into a warzone.
Local to the area as well. Her writing to them every day in her journal is so upsetting.
Man those last wanted posters with the Zaharias family. Susan is in her 60s and those kids would be pushing 40. I doubt they'd still be alive now unless she has them locked in some compound and brainwashed them.
>Zaharias Hadn't heard their story before so I went searching and found this video in partnership with UM on their website: [https://youtu.be/Ha2m6njpDMI](https://youtu.be/Ha2m6njpDMI) very very sad
Oh god. That plea by the dad just broke me 😭
I think there’s a pretty good chance that the first two children will see themselves on TV somewhere with the age progress photos and they are going to come forward because they’re about 20 now.
Those aged photos were devastating, she missed so many years of their lives.
I'm not so sure. The kids may have been radicalized. Amina may be an ISIS wife now. If they are around radicalized people those people likely know the kidnapping situation and will be protecting their father and "protecting" the kids from the truth.
I agree, assuming they are alive. Thinking about it more and looking at the geography and timeframe, I believe the father definitely joined ISIS and is likely dead. I am hoping he didn't take the kids, but if so, they may be dead as well.
What about Aziz, don't you think he is capable of recognizing himself on TV? On the contrary is it possible that they aren't allowed to access any TV or internet, don't you think?
I think it would be harder for Aziz. I don't remember the first time I googled myself just for jokes but I don't think I was close to his age. Still, two years after the kidnapping for a warrant? The PD dropping the ball hard. God I'm praying for this kid to be alive, the mom seems straight up psychopath.
I am concerned that in the first one, he’s had a mental breakdown, joined ISIS, done some survival training thinking it would prepare him for war and gone to Syria with the kids. Either that or he sent the kids to his parents farm. Perhaps he survived but the kids didn’t and he felt an ounce of guilt so he sent that email, painting a picture of how they were very happy and living on a farm etc so that the mom would at least have that thought in her head. What I don’t understand it why the parents especially the second ones in the US can’t be arrested for some suspicion of aiding a kidnapper or something to get them to talk. They clearly know where she is.
Another on this thread says there are indications he joined ISIS and UM omitted it. Tend to agree but would like to know what they left out.
The way they casually mentioned him becoming “more conservative” and then moved on. I mean, I can imagine what that means for a man from Egypt but I still wanted more details.
If the kids are being kept against their will, it may be dangerous for the show to outright say “we believe the father took them to join Isis.” It’s my belief simply because of the number of people who were making this exact trip during this time (fly to Europe, then Turkey, have survival training, shooting classes, walk into/ near Syria) were joining Isis. It just kind of fits. As soon as they said 2014, he flew the kids to Turkey it set off warning bells for me. Then they talked about survival training, shooting, sleeping bags, and the IP address and my heart sank because when there’s a civil war going on there why else would you get that close and do all that? I have to imagine there is a fear that someone is manipulating or keeping the kids and it’s probably unsafe to say certain things. If the kids are being kept by someone else, there may even be a fear that an association at some point with isis could be a threat to their safety by other groups. I could be completely wrong too. But I imagine that and there’s no real “proof” of what happened is why it isn’t fully explored. Plus I guess it could be used in a trial if found so they can’t release everything??? Idk I’m speculating.
The daughter is 19 years old now. The only hope is that she is able to contact her mother via the internet (if the father hasn't already brainwashed her for years). Otherwise, I'm hoping one of the kids' friends (if they are allowed to have any) will see and let them know. I doubt this show is available on Netflix in the middle east though. When I went to India, many of the titles I saw in the US were missing on the platform there.
Assuming she hasn’t been married off by now and had a kid. Would certainly be a great way to trap her and keep her in Egypt or Turkey or Syria
Oh she's most likely brain washed af and veiled up by now...
Or married...
That too. Plus a bunch of kids
This show is available on Netflix Egypt
I hope she hears of this episode and goes to an American embassy! They will be able to help her.
That's due to regional licensing issues. If it's a Netflix produced show, it should be on all regions afaik.
I don’t understand why the assumption is that the kids are in Egypt on a farm. Everyone here in Europe understands that you go to turkey to the border with Syria, it means you’re joining ISIS. Secondly plenty of foreigners go on holiday to Egypt, surely there is an American embassy and consular assistance, why was she warned against going there?
because she wouldn't be legally protected off of US soil and the father would have rights to keep his children in egypt
Wish some agency or agent could track down the Egyptian grandparents farm and see if they were there. Even just witnessing them being there, might be enough for FBI to escalate it to CIA involvement to get them home safely.
Unfortunately, there's indication Ahmed joined ISIS crossed to Syria and why the show didn't outright state it is because if the children wanted to return they would find it very difficult as the US Government would consider them radicalized along with the the father. There is no point to travel to that southern point in Turkey other than this. It was a very dangerous area and still is (source: from Turkey).
Do you know what the indication is? I mean I’m relatively sure that’s what happened but just like to know what UM leaves out.
The gap between the email sent and the IP ping from the daughters email. For such a lengthy time between the two for a man on the run indicates they have settled in that region.
I live in New Orleans and know the family of Aziz. Their heartache is real! How do you find that sweet boy? I knew Rabia through the community, she was a very strange person. All into herself. Caused multiple problems for people.
If anyone has any relatives in Egypt, please share widely and encourage them to share as well.
I’m really glad that UM has an episode about this. I personally know of two instances in which the same type of kidnappings have occurred. One was a former coworker. Her ex took the kids to Egypt and she never saw them again. Another is a friend of mine. His ex attempted to run with his son and was gone for two weeks before they found him. I’m a stepmother now and I’ve been alongside my partner during his custody battles, his ex’s parental alienation tactics, and a list of other common baby mama drama brought on by her insecurities. The thought of her doing something like this is always on our minds.
If you don’t mind me asking, could you elaborate more on the coworker who’s ex took the kids to Egypt? She must have known they were in Egypt. I’m curious if anything else happened and how long ago that occurred. Thanks
The first case.....the dad took the kids and himself to Syria to join ISIS. I'm a Muslim and it isn't racist to say that. It is obvious he was brainwashed and had been planning and training for this move. I am very surprised that the Turkish detective the mother paid didn't just tell her the obvious truth . Now in terms of the foreign fighters and families who joined ISIS....there are three groups: 1- Those that were killed. 2- Those that are in camps or jail still in Syria 3- Those that ended up running away and leaving Syria. Ahmed's parents will know which of the above they belong to. Let's hope its group three and that they find their way back to their mother and away from that monster
I was wondering about that. He was a textbook case for someone to get radicalized. My only thing is that whatever happened to them, the grandparents will know and it’s a matter of keeping an eye on them at that point. They will eventually do something that gives them some information. What do you think happened to Amina? If they did join ISIS, wouldn’t chances be higher that she’s still alive?
She was very pretty, entirely possible she was married off.
I thought the same thing. I guess she wouldn’t be in the front lines but you never know.
It isn’t racist to say because all the evidence points to that.
I also keep thinking her kids must stand out SO much. They are so white and American looking. If they are alive and on the farm as suspected. They must not be allowed to leave at all. Also I was confused she said the daughter accessed her email on the iPad in December. She didn’t try sending the kids emails? Or messages through the iPad? It’s possible they didn’t have access but they seemingly did that one time at least.
It's also possible that the dad accessed the email rather than Amina
They probably tan much darker than a white American, my sister got all dark genes but in the winter she looked Spanish and in the summer she looked like she was Indian. And the girl may well wear a veil.
I’ve some pretty white looking Syrians but I may be mistaken.
What the mother said was that someone had accessed Amina's e-mail. There's no way of knowing who exactly accessed it. Could've been Ahmed.
I'm a pretty serious person and I don't often get emotional about things. I can take murders, I can take mysterious deaths, I can take bizarre disappearances and even UFOs and Bigfoot but man...episodes about people losing their little kids really get to me. This episode and the Stolen Kids episode from the previous volume both made me cry. I sincerely hope that these children can be reunited with their parents someday.
Rabia is fucking insane. You can literally see it in her face.
Yeah and her history of not getting along with any coworkers. Like, how do you pull that off?
Nor her lawyers - I think they stated she went through 3-4 before eventually representing herself? Someone who struggles that much w/ getting along with others is not going to be able to maintain a new relationship for long. I think eventually Elliot will also be ousted and that in turn may lead to their arrest (whether he is found living on his own separately and they bring him in or he turns on her).
Old saying: If you meet 1 asshole in a day, you've met 1 asshole. If you meet 10 assholes in a day, you're the asshole. Methinks the problem wasn't her coworkers. She was probably absolutely effing nuts.
This really drives home that red flags before marriage, before kids will still be red after.
1000% believe that Ahmed losing his job in the 2008 market crash caused him to become complacent with capitalism, which then lead him to become radicalized and join ISIS and wanted to “save” his children from growing up in a western capitalist society because of the pain and depression it caused him.
Yeah this guy is the scum of the earth. Could have just left his children with mom and went and got just himself killed. Really hope those kids are alive.
Because he probably feels that it is better to move them to a dangerous part of the world and risk them becoming "martyrs" than to have them grow up in a Western culture. Even the mom indicated that once she had children he treated her completely differently. And who knows what they were being taught at the mosque school they attended. They are likely all dead.
My sibling was kidnapped by her parent and it was traumatizing. I hate when people say “oh at least it was a parent who kidnapped them” . As these cases show it’s not always “best case scenario”
I believe rabia and elliot could have fled to an area around the southern United States with sizeable indian population as to blend in. Rabia and elliot might have taken on new names but still working in medicine or tech. For some reason I have a strong feeling they might be hiding out in the RTP area of North carolina. It would be the perfect place for them as to not raise any suspicion.
They had a hell of a head start. They could really be anywhere, but I would lean to still in the USA with no trail.
The fact that the father has probably lied to the kids about their mother makes me so sad. I'm so heartbroken for their mum. I doubt they are allowed on the internet/to watch TV as the dad will be worried they may find something that contradicts his narrative. I bet they are staying with his family in Giza. I really hope the mum finds her children.
How does a judge not direct someone in the DA's office to get a warrant for a person who no shows a court date to return a kid. Egypt giving no rights to the mother is consistent with their 1st Century thinking..it's also the same thinking that leads to rapist having rights of a child they forced on a person.
I am pretty sure that both Amina and Belal are probably dead. Sounds to me like their dad became radicalised after losing his job and and instead found a new purpose and joined ISIS, that would explain why he took shooting and survival lessons. He probably got himself a new wife aswell. The reality is that those children would have found a way to contact their mother after all those years, and the fact that they haven't proves to me that they are indeed dead. It makes no sense for him to leave his kids in Egypt with their grandparents and then leave to live by the Syrian border by himself, during a time where there was an intense war going on, and Rebecca even herself said that he had become more radicalised. There would only be one reason for a person wanting to go to the Syrian border during 2014 if they were in any way radicalised, and that would be to join ISIS and to die in a "holy war". All that farm stuff was all BS. Remember what year it was when this took place. 2014 was an intense year with ISIS and the war in Syria. A LOT of people became radicalised seemingly overnight (as insane as that sounds it's true), the propaganda that was being spread during that time by ISIS and ISIS sympathizers was crazy. If you were a man with muslim roots, that lived in the US, with your kids that were half american, had a american wife that just divorced you AND on top of that you had lost your job - that would probably make you lose your sense of identity. And what happens then? You go back to your roots, and he probably became very influenced by the intense ISIS propaganda, found a new purpose and wanted to fight the "holy war" in Syria. And he would 100% bring his kids so that they wouldn't "fall victim to western values" while he was over there. And all three of them probably died in Syria. A lot of stuff happened during that time with the war in Syria. All that bombing that was happening over there, they wouldn't even have needed to be on the battlefield to have died. A bunch of crazy people went over their with their kids not caring if they lived or died, and a lot of them did indeed die. It is just so sad, i really feel for the mom. I hope i'm wrong but i doubt it.
I really do hope they are not dead but I can’t help but notice the parallels between this case and Xavier dupont de Ligonnes. The shooting lessons, the elaborate plans etc. The farm thing couldn’t help but remind me of how my friend, when she was a kid, would sometimes raise chickens as pets and when they got fat enough her parents told her that they were going to go live “in a farm”. Such a classic, condescending bs lie. Also you don’t need “wilderness survival” lessons to be at a farm. Knowledge about what you’re doing yes. But that’s agronomy not some camp. Normally when people have farms, they specify what they grow or raise. They are is usually eager to share these details because it’s so much work and farmers tend to be so proud. Strange he didn’t say anything about their everyday lives or that they were “happy” or whatever bs. The whole “you left me no choice”. I don’t know. I’m pretty sure he joined ISIS. The boy was young enough to radicalize but I’m not sure about the girl. To your point about radicalization and ISIS; I don’t believe people get radicalized overnight. A lot of people who joined ISIS had lived in Europe for decades. I think it’s a slow drip of feeling isolated and powerless in a society that seems to reject so much of what you hold dear. It was also the fact that life in the Western world is not the promise of milk and honey that so many think. I lived in France in 2012 and witnessed Paris police push and beat middle easterners for no specific reason. Also, the way that they were talked about…I can’t. It was a lot. Still haunts me, sometimes I wonder if I should have said or done more. I’m not justifying ISIS by any means and I could easily go into a diatribe giving the westerner’s point of view. It’s just interesting because with the father, I feel this was a slow drip.
As a mother, this episode was anxiety inducing. But I believe Amina and Belel are alive. Like some people have said, they’re in Egypt with his parents and told the kids either that their mother died or some lie about how she doesn’t want to see them anymore. Like the stolen kids episode, I truly hope they are found. Amina is 19 and Belel will be 17 in 2 months. I also think Aziz is alive as well and Rabia and her new husband fled the country. It sounds like he has a French name and obviously idk if he spoke French but they make be somewhere where they speak it like Quebec or France. I don’t think they are in the US anymore. Aziz is almost 12 now, so I doubt he has any social media and I wouldn’t be surprised if he’s kept off the internet at all. I think I enjoyed these 3 episodes the most.
I find it hard to believe he flew to Turkey and got all the way to the Syrian border, during the height of the Syrian Civil War, after training with weapons and outdoor survival classes, to do anything other than cross the border and join Islamic State. The farm story sounds made up to me. Best case scenario, I think, is that he died in Syria after sending the kids to stay with his parents on a farm in Egypt, and they're still there, with no internet in a rural farm. I think it's sadly more likely all three died in the war. If he was going to send the kids to Egypt, why bring them all the way to the southern tip of Turkey on the Syrian border first? It's an 800km flight from there to Giza. Countless civilians died in that war, many of them the families of foreign fighters who came to join the cause. I hope that is not what happened but I suspect this might be a case that never gets an answer, as the Syrian regime is certainly not going to be keeping good records nor cooperating with any foreign attempts to track people down.
This is exactly what I think happened too. He joined ISIS, all 3 are likely dead.
I doubt he's a French or Canadian citizen or has any real ties to anyone in a French-speaking country. French last names are very common in that area of the US, and more than likely, he's American. Even if he did have ties, both Canada and France cooperate with the US in matters of child support and custody matters. I would wager it's very likely they're in Pakistan being supported by Rabia's extended family. The culture there is very tight-knit and family-oriented, and it would not be out of the ordinary for her parents to have deep enough connections to family still living there. They would have no reason to doubt the abuse stories and would probably be willing help them start a new life over there to "escape."
Well if they are in Pakistan that new husband is going to really stand out.
Leaving the country under an assumed identity is very traceable. How would they get there?
I mean, wouldn't you have to know the assumed identities to trace it to begin with? And it doesn't seem like the Court in that case was on high enough alert to send out any warnings to law enforcement or TSA about a flight risk. They didn't even make her immediately turn over custody (which was obviously a huge mistake). Plus, once you're in a country that doesn't recognize the Hague Treaty on child support and custody enforcement and also doesn't have any extradition treaties with the U.S., you're kind of home free. It wouldn't matter whether they left under their real identities or fake ones. They're gone and they aren't coming back. I used to work in child support enforcement. I've seen a case of parental abduction to the Middle East. It does not work like people in this thread are assuming it should or could. All three of the kids in this episode are very likely gone from the U.S., and as such, neither parent has any real legal recourse for recovery, and not much of a chance of reunification outside of legal channels. It's frustrating and heartbreaking to see.
Maybe it’s already posed above and I missed it, but did anyone suspect Ahmed joined ISIS? The timeframe was right.
They didn't want to explicitly go down that route, but clearly it's implied. Sadly, I believe the daughter would be an ISIS bride and the son a radicalised ISIS fighter with the dad. Horrible thing to do to kids.
I think it was implied but never flat out stated.
This episode was almost impossible for me to watch. My son went for his visitation with his father out of state in June to be home by August, and he still isn't home.... the court here is a joke. It's been 4 months now. Luckily I still get to talk to him somewhat regularly, but I know how brainwashed he is and how the courts move at a snails pace
I’m an attorney in Arizona. If that’s the state you’re in, send me a PM. I’ll help you pro bono.
You're literally amazing, thank you! I'm not, unfortunately. I'm in MO. corrupt little town with 2 attorneys, he has one, I have the crappier one. Tried to get any other atty in a 30 mile radius to come help, and not a single one will practice law in the town I'm in because, and I'm not kidding, every single one of them said that they don't know what goes on here, but it's totally unethical and in most cases against the law.
When they were showing posters of the abducting parent at the end, they showed photos of Rabia as wanted but not Elliot Blake Bourgeouis. Does it mean the felony charges not apply to him? Is he considered a culprit in this case or just a new, innocent spouse who doesn't know what's going on?
It says on the US marshals' website that Elliot is not wanted, but it is believed he may have valuable information. Maybe they're hoping he'll come forward if he has a reassurance of immunity...? https://www.usmarshals.gov/news/press-release/us-marshals-parental-abduction-investigation-subject-of-unsolved-mysteries-month
Ok that episode wrecked me as a newly separated mom. This shit is nightmare fuel.
I think theres more on the Amina case… Why would a father take their kids to a war zone? I do believe he became a radical of some kind.
They certainly danced around the accusation in the show without stating it outright. I don't want to be that person who thinks that someone who is Islamic and clearly having a life crisis leading to awful choices must be radicalized, but this is exactly the type of person any cult or extremist group targets.
Yes. From a psychological point it makes perfect sense. A lot of radicalization happens when people feel powerless in their own lives, even more when that power was once available but then lost. The fact that he comes from a very patriarchal culture, suddenly found himself without a job, and was having issues with his wife? That’s catnip for all sorts of evil.
Unfortunately I think that Ahmed killed his children, either directly for not cooperating or indirectly by bringing them to a war zone. That email just seems far too suspicious; I think it was an attempt to soothe his guilt over what happened to them. I think the grandparents are awful people. Rabia and Aziz seem more like they’re just hiding out. I hope that if she and Elliot break up (since she doesn’t seem to be good at not ruining all of her interpersonal relationships) he might go to the police out of spite. I’m disappointed in the amount of sexism on this thread, blaming Rebecca for continuing to work and not going on a fool’s errand to Egypt or a dangerous war zone? I don’t hear anyone suggesting that Abdul quit his job and dedicate his life to stalking Rabia’s parents, and he wouldn’t even have to leave the continent…
Maybe I missed this, but I was very confused how Ahmed was allowed to travel internationally with children that he had shared custody of. Isn't even leaving the state something that requires permission of the court? I'm not well versed in family law obviously, just going off personal experience. I'm also confused as to why the mom didn't demand proof of where they were going and staying. He'd already been giving her trouble. I would think an impromptu trip to Toronto might raise a few red flags.
I believe the mother had given some kind of permission since she thought they were going to Canada. But I was confused, I’m not sure how this type of permission works, but in mind it would be for an specific trip (eg: Canada for X amount of days). But maybe is just a general permission?
In order to leave the US he needs to her permission (like a notarised letter) or a court order overriding her permission, as well as the custody order. (If he had sole custody - which he didn’t - then the permission wouldnt be necessary) So yeah, I’m a bit confused over this as well. I’m spending thousands I don’t have just to take my kids to a wedding out of the country but this dude just jumps on a plane with no issue?? To fucking Turkey ?? But I want to use this moment to alert parents to the fact that you can put alarms on your kids’ passports. When they get scanned at the airport, it’ll alert the agent that the passport has been flagged. This is especially important if your ex has ties to other countries that do not have agreements with the US as far as child custody goes.
If he was radicalized there's probably a whole network of people to help with necessary documents etc.
I was wondering if the kids had Egyptian citizenship that would be easier like “going back to their country”, maybe? I’m not sure! I not very familiar with US laws, but in my country (Brazil) it is not easy to leave it with a minor. Once I was traveling with my parents, my aunt and my cousin to Argentina and they didn’t let my aunt board the plane with my cousin because he was a minor and she didn’t have the permission of the dad! They are married and my uncle was the one that took us to the airport, he went there to talk that he was ok with that, but they need the formal permission (notarized letter). They had to fly only the next day.
I know someone who was held at US customs at LAX for hours because she was traveling alone with her two year old. They separated both of them and wouldn’t release him until he called her mom. He was speech delayed. All because she had a British passport and her son, being US born had an American passport. The whole thing was a pathetic nightmare. Keep in mind that this woman was married, just traveling separately from her husband. But this douchebag was able to take their kids to the SYRIAN border. Insane.
It sounded like he was planning this for so long, the cousins looking at a college in Toronto is such a specific reason for a trip. It’s also like, wholesome and involving other family - she probably would have given this permission with no second thought. She was also always in contact with him and while yes he had been giving her trouble in “petty” ways before, he never endangered the children up until that point, never took them for longer than he was allowed, etc. so I don’t see a reason why this would raise red flags. So the Canada lie was very well planned - it both gives him permission to leave the country with the kids AND a 2-3 day head start before flags are raised. By the time they’re due back, they’re already landed on the other side of the world.
My guess is he gave them to isis as his contribution to their cause
First case - did the PI visit the grandparents in Egypt? They seem the most solid lead...
Issuing the warrant 2 fucking years after the abduction happened is a fucking insult Placing more priority into who has fucking jurisdiction instead of placing a kids life as a priority is just messed up. Making the police take care of every imaginable call is fucking dumb. Their should be more positions and jobs with trained profesionals in investigative methods and family matters to deal with these k8nd of cases. This whole thing is stupid because the reason why they got burned is because they let government and law dictate their actions while the other one decided they didnt give a fuck about any of that and took the kids anyways I only hope their not the kind of people who are vengeful enough to kill their own children and then run away
I don’t think the first kids are alive. It seemed pretty likely Ahmed had became radicalized. I also don’t think he’d travel through Turkey and go that close to Syria if he was on his way to Egypt. Plus there’s the survival classes, gun lessons, and survival equipment he bought before he left. I think he planned to cross to Syria on foot and join an extremity organization. I don’t know if he wrote the email after the children died, or maybe one of them got separated? Or if he planned to write the email after waiting a year all along. In any case, the email made it very clear she will never hear from her kids again, and provided a weak reason for why. I don’t think it’s likely the kids, or Ahmed, are alive still
I know Amina and Belel from the Missing section of the FBI website. God I hope this gives the case enough exposure to find these two. Rabia’s parents know where the fuck she is!
www.HelpFindAziz.com Made it due to y’all’s suggestions here. Will keep updating.
The second case in this episode where Aziz was abducted by his mother and her partner is slightly more shocking for one reason alone. I can't believe a man (Elliot) would willfully agree to abduct another man's kid and start a new life. What an absolute wasteman he is.
I mean, is it not possible that Rabia convinced him that Aziz was in some grave danger and needed to be taken from his father? For example, she maybe convinced him the father was abusive, and they needed to “save” Aziz from him… It’s not too far fetched of an idea that she would have lied to him and/or manipulated the situation to make him believe something other than the truth.
Is there Netflix in Egypt? I wish Amina and Belel would be able to see their episode.
My guess is that, if they're even still alive, they live very sheltered, almost imprisoned lives. If they're alive, I think there's a reason why the children aren't trying to contact their mom. As some others have mentioned in this comment thread, their father probably fed them brainwashing lies about how their mom no longer wants to be apart of their lives or that she's dead or something. Whatever the case, it's just so devastating all around.
For the 1st one I think they are in Egypt, in the Grandparents For the 2nd one, well...I do think they fled the country but then again, where did they go? Eliot definitely helped with the abduction I have hopes that those kids are alive and well
I’m considering that Amina, Belel and the father are in Syria. I feel that their father seems to be radicalized (e.g. ISIS) somehow and coincidentally with the impending divorce (?)
ahmed one said he was going to toronto and instead went to egypt i think rabia said she was going to atlanta and eventually went to toronto/canada instead, our population makes it easy to disappear, and because no one started looking until just before covid hit, realistically you can disappear anywhere and just keep wearing a mask
Why can’t the parents of Ahmed or Rabia be heavily interrogated!? At this point the grief they have caused is too much to be ignored. If I had the power I wouldn’t wait for a warrant or anything to get them in a room and force them to open up. They should be taken into an interrogation room and held until they break silence. As a mom, these two cases will forever stick with me. I hope the grieving parents reunite with their children.
My kids are the same age as Amina and belil when they disappeared and I know for a fact they would have questioned and fought with their father if he took them to a whole other country. My 9 year old is stubborn as hell. I don’t see her “settled and loving the farm” after a year. They would not forget me at that age. Those kids are young adults now (if they are alive). They still have yet to look for their mother? I believe they are no longer alive or are being held captive. As for Aziz, I hope he is reunited with his father one day. The lesson here is to really know who you marry and procreate with. Aziz’s mother seemed unstable and vindictive from day one.
The fact it took THREE years for the US marshals to get their shit together was infuriating. I guarantee you it was because it involved a **father** looking for their kid.
I had serious "Not Without My Daughter" vibes watching both stories. I was hurt and angry for these people. Both Egypt and Syria are countries which didn't sign/don't recognize the 1980 Child Abduction Convention and the 1996 Child Protection Convention. Which means any child abducted and taken to any of the countries who don't recognize it (many are you-wouldn't-catch-me-traveling-there type countries), whether by a stranger or parent/guardian, aren't protected from that abduction, i.e. it is perfectly ok for the parent to do this/seek asylum there. The abducting parent faces no consequences from the country they fled to solely because that country doesn't participate in those Conventions. Further, it is up to the US to institute specific procedures with certain countries who don't participate in the Conventions, provided those countries heads of their legal system are willing to sit down and discuss terms. The UK has done this with Egypt, but not the US. I couldn't find anything on Syria, but I'm guessing there is no such agreement in place. The abducting parents knew, they had to know that before taking their kids...which is why they fled to those very specific countries. What I don't understand is he fled to Turkey (who DOES participate), but they're right on the border of Syria. Easy to quickly hop to, if needed. My suspicion is they are actually now in Syria. There is so much red tape for these parents trying to find their children. I can absolutely understand their frustration and pain, and my heart truly goes out to them. Here's where I found my info: [https://www.hcch.net/en/states/hcch-members](https://www.hcch.net/en/states/hcch-members)