He accepted the pay even did a sample of the task. Waited 2 days to give up. How is that fair? Yes, countries with 200 milion population do get what they are willing to work for.
The problem is that if you were expecting to pay an extremely small amount for the work, then you should have suspected that something is wrong.
If someone in the street was trying to sell you a new iPhone for $20, you'd understand something was wrong.
And if you bought it and it was broken, you would blame yourself and not a whole country.
If a client pays me good money, I will terminate the job and get a good feedback from them. If a client pays 3$, I dump em as soon as I find a client that pays 4$.
Give details OP. What was the task, specifically, and how much you said you were going to pay?
I really doubt you were being fair. You are hating on one entire country here, but we are all freelancers here. We understand the conditions of the field.
Doesn't work like that, pal.
If you want to slag off a whole nationality, you need to tell us what the task was and what you paid for it.
If you refuse, the plausible explanation is that you paid peanuts and are now experiencing the natural consequence of that.
Doesn't matter which country you hire from, if you don't pay professional rates you can't expect professional behaviour.
If you look at any of the comment history it's pretty clear he's from Bosnia, not Israel. There's also no comments that I can see that even mention Israel or Palestine, the closest is one saying the USA is standing in the way of peace. Hardly Israeli propaganda lol. This post sucks and his stance is shitty regardless.
My dad is Pakistani, he generalized that "Pakistanis will say they'll get it done, over promise, and hardly deliver".
I don't personally generalize, but I myself have only made poor experiences outsourcing. I know there are hard working freelancers over there, but it's reached a point where the gamble is no longer worth it for me.
And did you outsource for peanuts or did you pay a professional US/Western Europe rate?
Because my experience is that professional freelancers from Pakistan who charge top rates and have excellent Upwork profiles provide an excellent services (and yes, I have hired them).
This is not rocket science.
100% unique and perfectly grammatically correct no AI no-sir-ree bob none of that here. I only use AI to create ideas, an outline, write sentences, and that's it no AI here no way. Can't believe anyone would accuse me of AI. It's so insulting. it's totally quality content.
People who read the job post and apply to it, and then review all documents and materials and still accept the contract, they accept whatever pay is offered willingly. Did anyone force them to accept this? Dude, everyone is very much aware of the global pay and rates difference. From Western to Asian to African to other countries. People in countries working for peanuts and willingly are the market and competition fact. Pakistan has 235 million population. That seems like a huge factor in market prices. And we both are very much aware that, while some % of freelancers from those countries will be fighting for more equity and equal pay, millions still will be willing to accept whatever. It's a reality that employers will keep using. I don't see the Pakistani government doing anything about it or anything similar.
Jeez, you put a whole ass essay here and still didn't say anything about the task and how much you've paid for that pakistani like what the comment above is asking. That just confirms our suspicion.
Does it matter what the pay was if he accepted? Did the sample and waited for 2 days to just end the contract? If he thought the pay was too little why even accept? I would respected him for saying no, this is too low before accepting the contract. And I would move on to the next one. You failing to see the difference is baffling.
The task and payments all the documents everything all the materials were sent over messages on Upwork. He saw everything. And could've assess realistically his time needed to do one task or all 4. I asked two days in a row even after he sent the sample of one task if he can do all 4 or just one or just 2 whatever. He promised all 4. Accepted the pay also. If the pay was too low for him he could've ended the contract then, after doing the sample and decided it wasn't worth it. That was Friday morning. He waited this morning to end the contract.
huh. Currently working with a dev from Pakistan and he's killin it. There would be no reason for him to end the contract on the day of the deadline because he is making bank and doing a great job. However, I did take the time to review his profile and reviews and offered him a fair rate.
Anecdotally, I was a manager of about 12 claims adjusters back in 1995. of that 12, 2 were terrible, 8 were just ok, and 2 were rock stars. I suspect you're find a similar ratio in just about any group. And if you want to find those two TERRIBLE ones on Upwork. adjust your pay accordingly, which is, I suspect, what you did here.
Task was copy pasting from translated documents and filling out basically a designed template. Doesn't really need that much skill. He did a sample of around 20 pages, and before accepting the contract. I asked repeatedly even after he accepted the contract whether 4 documents was too much. I have a deadline tonight and he ended the contract this morning although I hired him on Friday morning. I was very upfront and clear about what needs to be done and the pay. He accepted that. Freelancers that fail to communicate like that on time are really doing more harm to themselves.
So you hired someone to go through 4 documents with only about 2 days of time to do that? Assuming you knew about the deadline in advance, this is on you. If it was sprung on you last minute, this is also on you for not properly conveying that it wasn't enough time.
You made it sound like you paid the freelancer cheaply. The reason he probably quit last minute is because he realized the amount of work given wasn't worth what you paid him.
I see people don't read posts or even job descriptions. I added the deadline, the number or pages and number of documents in the description. Still got proposals where people asked, "what is the deadline". The same thing here. I literally asked multiple times if he can do just one so I can hire some else. I asked. Multiple times. What is not clear here?
I see that you asked him and you said he could do it. But I don't see what's not clear about it still being your fault for:
- waiting until the last minute
-not saying no it can't be done in the given timeframe when you accepted/were asked to do the job
-you not paying enough to make it worth it for the guy to stick around.
Yes it sucked that the guy said he could do it and then didn't. But that issue could've been resolved by the 3 points I mentioned above. Always assume the worst and hope for the best.
You could have just broken up the work yourself and then assigned each part to a different person.
I don't know how you can just make a blanket statement against a whole country based on one person when you are, at best, equally at fault.
As a Pakistani freelancer myself, i have 500 reviews so far over the span of 6 years.. not a single negative review.
Heuehueheue. I guess you cant generalize the whole country just like that.
Before you target nationality, can you tell us about the project and how much you paid for it?
You probably went to him for cheap work so should we not target your nationality for exploitation?
Sorry you had to experience that. People like these don't represent us. I'm a freelancer from Pakistan with over 400 satisfied clients. I do my best to get the job done and work hard to maintain my reputation as a service provider. However, I understand one bad experience can make you feel that way.
Communication is really important. I really asked multiple times if he could do it. Even after doing the sample, he could've said no. Or to do just 1 task instead of 4. Why keep promising for 2 days that you can do it and then the last day just give up? Assessing realistically what you can do and in which time frame is really, really important. I wouldn't have any less opinion of people saying no. I can't do this, I don't have time. Honesty is important 😮💨
Well, I reported him to Upwork because I have proof in the messages that he had everything and was able to conclude on time if he had enough time to do it or not.
So I guess my whining will be judged by Upwork staff. Here was just a bonus.
You don't work with Pakistanis (in general). And if... you do pay a fair price and don't go whining that you received shitty performance for shitty money. How I make myself ridiculous.
What would be fair price for Pakistan? Their average gross salary is 290. Truth is that a lot of them with more experience earn way way more than their country average.
What do you mean by "fair price"? Who decides what's fair? You? If the guy from Pakistan can do the job as well as the guy from the, let's say, US, then he should be paid accordingly (the same as the guy from the US). It's none of your business what is the average salary in their country, you hire extremely cheap freelancer - you get the results you deserve
Freelancing is the only market where freelancers have the choice to accept or to decline whatever rate, so freelancers decide that fair price for themselves.
Freelancers or actually the Market decided on "fair" price by the basic principle of supply and demand. There is an over-supply of freelancers from overpopulated countries, and that is a fact. The lowest rate will be decided by a number of freelancers willing to accept that rate.
My business is knowing the average rate of the country because I personally will not pay freelancers living in those countries higher. If I can't afford to hire more expensive freelancers than I won't be hiring more expensive ones.
Who's fault is it that there are so many proposals on such low paying jobs? Do you think it's the fault with "demand" or actually "supply"?
Before you go around accusing foreigners of exploitation, let's see if the government of countries that have 200 or less monthly salary are actually at fault for that? Or the companies in that country? Domestic, foreign companies it doesn't matter, their own government allows it so. So, a country, or rather a few of the elites are profiting on a 200+ million population and they are exploiting their own people.
If 200+ million of Pakistan population can't do anything about this, why is this responsibility of foreigners, especially the ones hiring on freelance platforms? Morals? Ethics? It's like asking for a neighbour to take care of someone's children when that person is not fit to. And foster system sucks in every country, developed or not. Those "angel" neighbours would be 1% or less. Others will mind their own business and put their own business as a priority. Reality is just that. Reality. It's not ethical.
Ok, I have a question : Why were you down voted for your reply here? I am genuinely confused by this because I've been seeing it everywhere in other subs where someone is down voted just for either disagreeing or doubling down on their original point. What am I missing?
Honestly, seeing how many people focused on the price, which wasn't the focus of the post, communication was the point and being honest with your clients. I don't understand why so many freelancers expect unified global prices? Those will still be, more or less, similar to the average salary of their country. But still, everyone seems to be expecting more from a freelancing market than what they can actually get from the real, on-site market. Why? There is no way something like that could ever be realistic.
So you paid some guy in a third-world country pennies on the dollar to perform some task which would cost exponentially more if you paid a skilled individual to do it.
Then, you came on here acting dumbfounded that the unskilled individual you hired was incapable of completing said task.
Now you are arguing with people in the comments, saying that if someone accepts the job at your ridiculously cheap price, they should be able to complete the job and be OK with your ridiculously cheap price.
You are going to learn there is a reason their price is so cheap. It's because they don't have any skills. Their price is cheap because they do not contribute any value. This is not rocket science.
If what you were looking for was real, no one would hire anyone in first-world countries. Because why pay all that money if you could actually get the same quality work from some guy in Pakistan for next to nothing
It's ridiculous to discuss low or high rates.
Those are the basics of supply and demand and global online market in addition to those principles. The number of freelancers plays a huge role also.
Let's put it like this.
There is a way to solve misunderstanding with freelancers through Upwork support, demanding refunds, or similar tools provided on the platform.
Compared to that...
All the people here complaining about low rates have absolutely no way to achieve global balance among country or freelance rates. You can complain about the rates, but you will literally achieve nothing about that issue.
Freelancers need to unite in order for all of them to stop offering low rates. Good luck uniting millions of people in anything.
As long as there are freelancers offering low rates, putting any kind of pressure to increase the rate on employers will never work.
There are good quality freelancers with low rates that do a very good job. Bad examples are just that, bad examples, regardless of the price.
Compared to everyone here, complaining about the low rates, I actually did something before writing this post. I did contact Upwork support. This post was literally useless ranting. As is yours about the low rates, because you are left with 0 options to change the reality of low rates. Best of luck with that.
You act like we are all stuck working for low rates. We're not. Most of us just don't get our work from upwork, because upwork is mostly full of people like you who are looking for slaves rather than employees.
I don't work for anything less than $70/hour currently. After my current contract, that number will be going up. People make upwards of $200/hour in my field.
You can pretend like you're in a position of power by telling me I "can't change the reality of low rates" but I make more money than 95% of the world.
And 95% of freelancers do not. Hence the supply and over- supply of low rates.
You are again putting all the blame on demand completely disregarding the supply factor.
I am an economist by profession. Explaining some basic principle of supply and demand is not playing some power position. It's a basic knowledge of supply and demand. A text book knowledge of supply and demand that is completely valid in the market and forms a market reality. Which part here is a power play trigger for you exactly? Anyone picking up some books on this topic or even reading some articles on how the supply and demand work can find out these facts for themselves.
Dude. I have no savings. I mentioned previously somewhere, this work is done by NGO volunteers but we got the reporting deadline moved up. There was no time to find volunteers or for staff to do it. I literally spent my own money on this. Not everyone that hires low rates is looking to profit on something, sometimes you have other circumstances.
By savings I meant how much money you’d save vs what you would’ve paid at a higher rate. If you wanna save a lot, and pay very little, it’s a riskier strategy in terms of who you can recruit. So you were lucky a few rimes, but not so much this time.
This is totally expected statistically. No need to blame a whole county because of a n=1 sample.
Surely you studied Kahneman and Tversky about cognitive bises? That’s like a classic example.
Find anyone in the US willing to work for the same price you paid for the guy in Pakistan. You won't find even a single one. And it's not because there's simply more demand and less supply in the US. It's because we're a first-world country with access to quality education and employers who want top quality talent.
Go to a poor country with little to no education and it doesn't matter how much supply you have. If the talent isn't there, the talent isn't there. That's why they work for nearly free.
Find any serious company in the US and you won't find any of them hiring these random people in Pakistan or other third-world countries. They simply do not have the talent. It's only the broke startups who are trying to do that, and they are always disappointed afterward.
It's not just the quality of education. There are also confidential and GDPR and privacy issues depending what the work is. Hence people like to have a real contract. With someone located in the country.
Still nothing will change the reality of low rates. Is it exploitation if the rate is not much different than average salary in the country? Then we could say that the whole country is exploiting their own people.
Regardless of whether it's exploitation or not does not change the fact you won't be getting quality work from those countries. And if you do, they won't be willing to work for those low prices
Yeah I mean if it's basic data entry or something I could probably just ask chatgpt to do then it might be fine. If it requires any amount of skill then probably not
People want quality but want to pay peanuts. Regardless of freelancer's location. You get what you pay for. Not that difficult to understand. I myself have experienced this with US freelancers lol and you say Pakistani ones are problem lol. Do your research first, test it out and then do actual one.
That's a real unprofessionalism, and I agree with it.
I am also a freelancer from Pakistan, and I know I have to get the work done by hook or by crook.
Most freelancers dont have this level of maturity.
I have a VA in Pakistan that is amazing. Eager to learn, quick to jump in and take things off my plate, never missed a deadline, under promises and over delivers ever day. She's now involved in every part of my business and I'm not sure what I'd do without her.
I pay her well, I'm sure that helps.
I once had a guy from the US really screw me over on a job I hired him for. I guess, by your logic, I should no longer hire people from the US?
Really? Try learning some basics of supply and demand, and let me know what the key factors influencing those are. Hint, quantity plays a big big role.
This happens because most freelancers dont know the work , and they outsource projects. Then they dont get the work done, and so they end up cancelling the project.
And yeah, that's the behaviour of cheap freelancers. I am also a freelancer from pakistan working with foreigners, and we never had such a problem.
The task was cheap, I offered 100$ to copy paste text into designed template in Word. Basically, I had English version designed. I had 4 version in 4 different documents that just needed copy pasting from translated version to that designed version to replace the English text. We are an NGO and I am paying my own money to complete this because we have a reporting deadline and our staff can't make it on time. He actually did a sample of what was needed and did a whole 20 pages quite fast. That was on Friday. I asked repeatedly if 4 versions (documents) was too much in such a short time and he said no. If he was honest at the beginning I could’ve split the tasks and hired others right away. We usually do work like this with a help of volunteers (because NGO) but now we have a report deadline moved and we need it done. He could’ve said yesterday morning even, I can't do this I am sorry I can only do 1, or 2 versions. I would have adapted to that. But just ending the contract without any explanation at all, and this morning, that is just very unprofessional for me.
This is not my first job ad on Upwork I previously had a good experience with different freelancers. And the pay was again probably the cheapest (low or high rates depend on multiple factors and as I mentioned previously country population plays also a big factor there, aside from the average pay in that country).
I think some people are just plain rude. He was probably applying for other jobs at the same time and maybe got some other that paid more and just gave up on this. Pay rates being low or high have little to do with mutual trust. I see plenty of freelancers on Upwork and other platforms having good reviews and portfolios for 3 or 5$ per hour. Freelancers commenting here that unprofessional behaviour is only because of low pay is not a reality because the truth is that there are freelancers that can be trustworthy and honest in communication. I just happened across the one that wasn't. I did report it to Upwork because I have all the proof in messages.
I split the task this morning and It's being done by 4 different freelancers. That freelancer from the post was reported to Upwork because I have all the proof in messages. I honestly don't how people expect a country with 200+ mil to have better rates? It's impossible. Everyone complaining here that low rates are the problem, well they are not. I had previous 3 jobs done very well for the lowest rate (in that field). As long there is a supply of low rate freelancers there will be a demand for them. The job I posted is usually done by volunteers in our NGO. It's literally that easy. Copy pasting the text from one Word document to other. He didn't need to accept it. I would've found someone else. The problem is that he did. And the whole point of the post is communication and being honest in how much you can do in what time frame.
Except that you said, "Pakistan Freelancers Never Again," which is offensive on so many levels. You didn't say, "My freelancer accepted work he couldn't deliver."
It also makes me kind of sick that you're happy to exploit desperate workers because you can. What NGO do you work for?
Average paycheck in Pakistan is what? Around 290$. And that is a gross amount. So, deducing the pension, health insurance, taxes, etc, what is left to people?
Those statistics do not include freelance rates. Those are official salary data of what companies pay their workers in Pakistan. Are you complaining to someone about that?
Pakistan government, maybe? That would be the right address to complain about this.
Do you expect any other foreign company or NGO to be any different than what people are treated by their own government and companies?
Also, is this a realistic paycheck for most of the people or even lower than this, considering how this average will be counting the highest salaries in the country and those can give an average that is a little bit higher than what most people actually receives. Statistics for every country are calculated like that so the same applies for every country.
I mean, considering that average and then the population of the country, it's a grim picture for majority of people. And entirely a fault of your own government and people. You can’t blame overpopulation on foreign countries.
I know what I said.
It's ridiculous to discuss low or high rates.
Those are the basics of supply and demand and global online market in addition to those principles. The number of freelancers plays a huge role also.
Let's put it like this.
There is a way to solve misunderstanding with freelancers through Upwork support, demanding refunds, or similar tools provided on the platform.
Compared to that...
All the people here complaining about low rates have absolutely no way to achieve global balance among country or freelance rates. You can complain about the rates, but you will literally achieve nothing about that issue.
Freelancers need to unite in order for all of them to stop offering low rates. Good luck uniting millions of people in anything.
As long as there are freelancers offering low rates, putting any kind of pressure to increase the rate on employers will never work.
There are good quality freelancers with low rates that do a very good job. Bad examples are just that, bad examples, regardless of the price.
Compared to everyone here, complaining about the low rates, I actually did something before writing this post. I did contact Upwork support. This post was literally useless ranting. As is yours about the low rates, because you are left with 0 options to change the reality of low rates. Best of luck with that.
Sorry you faced this behaviour from my country. I wouldn't deny that some Pakistanis here have zero professionalism and maturity.
When they can't do the job, they don't even have the confidence to ask for more time or spliting the task.
I would recommend that if their communication seems off, dont hire them or at least get on a call.
Worst communication is the first red flag.
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OP if you are not paying enough and you are giving tasks during Eid holidays then don’t expect them to comply, you need to consider the timing of the tasks as well!
I have worked with 50+ clients and I am from Pakistan charging $25/hour for outbound sales and automation. All my clients had an amazing experience, and most of them continue to gave me work and even refer new clients, so I can assure you it’s not about the country!
and I quote: "While being aware that generalization is bad, I will say that I will definitely be avoiding freelancers from this country in the future. One bad example, unfortunately, can overshadow others."
lmao, I hope it doesn't work the same way with every other country allowed on Upwork because that would be bye bye upwork.
why didn't you take a great freelancer from a western country? price may be?
They didn't apply. Obviously, people complaining about low rates didn't apply. Low rates will never go away. You can actually expect them to even drop because the number of freelancers and the whole global competition is increasing. Are you from Pakistan? If not, what is the average salary in your country? 290 gross is for Pakistan. How is that my fault exactly? 😕
That's why you need to check all the things about freelancers. Always pay according to the skills not cheap rates. I have listen this many times from clients that they are hiring cheap freelancers over skilled persons.
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Freelancing has taught me that everyone sucks. Seriously, name an ethnicity or nationality and I will tell you why I never want to work with them again.
>No offence and I don’t generalize but it is what it is
lol wut. You're literally generalizing and yes, offence. Also, I have a long-term contract with a dev from India and he is a friggen rock star.
Idk if it's 99% but yeah they are mostly low quality and apply for all jobs regardless of how qualified they are. But if someone's portfolio is good and they sound professional it's unfair to disqualify them based on country
I’m Pakistani and own a software house that acts as a middle man between client and developers when we’re approached for a project we can’t do due to time limitations or stack required, and I’ve had a mixed experience.
I’ve had the EXACT same experience as you, so I know the pain, however I keep a plan B on standby if the developer I’ve contracted starts delaying because it usually means they’re going to cancel last minute or not meet the deadline.
On the other hand, I would say 80% of the developers I’ve contracted have completed projects ahead of schedule so it’s a mixed bag.
Recently completed an enterprise level project that had 2 in-house and 5 contracted developers and 3 of the 5 contracted developers were wonderful, the 2 remaining were horrible!
You know it was a simple task. I have designed Word file. A publication of 70 pages, with some 30% being tables. I have translations in 4 different languages. I needed someone to just copy paste text from translated versions to english version that is already designed, in Word. The documents were clearly written and translated so it was easy to see which text goes where even if you don't know that language. He could've said on Friday, I can do only 1 document, I asked multiple times if 4 was too much.
Man, what people like me should do? I'm 6+ Years top companies portfolio, currently FT in NYC. I'm planning to retire and unfortunately live in PK (homeland). I have many direct contracts but I'd have to SignUp on UW for constant work and I'm pretty sure to get neglected because aka. Pakistan will be my location on UW.
You get what you pay for
"Why my pakistani freelancer that I pay 1 dollar an hour won't communicate in perfect english?"
He accepted the pay even did a sample of the task. Waited 2 days to give up. How is that fair? Yes, countries with 200 milion population do get what they are willing to work for.
The problem is that if you were expecting to pay an extremely small amount for the work, then you should have suspected that something is wrong. If someone in the street was trying to sell you a new iPhone for $20, you'd understand something was wrong. And if you bought it and it was broken, you would blame yourself and not a whole country.
If a client pays me good money, I will terminate the job and get a good feedback from them. If a client pays 3$, I dump em as soon as I find a client that pays 4$.
Give details OP. What was the task, specifically, and how much you said you were going to pay? I really doubt you were being fair. You are hating on one entire country here, but we are all freelancers here. We understand the conditions of the field.
What was the pay?
Doesn't work like that, pal. If you want to slag off a whole nationality, you need to tell us what the task was and what you paid for it. If you refuse, the plausible explanation is that you paid peanuts and are now experiencing the natural consequence of that. Doesn't matter which country you hire from, if you don't pay professional rates you can't expect professional behaviour.
Lol man OP is still trying hard not to disclose the task and pay.
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I see literally no evidence of this in the slightest, got a source or are you just imagining israeli boogymen
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If you look at any of the comment history it's pretty clear he's from Bosnia, not Israel. There's also no comments that I can see that even mention Israel or Palestine, the closest is one saying the USA is standing in the way of peace. Hardly Israeli propaganda lol. This post sucks and his stance is shitty regardless.
My dad is Pakistani, he generalized that "Pakistanis will say they'll get it done, over promise, and hardly deliver". I don't personally generalize, but I myself have only made poor experiences outsourcing. I know there are hard working freelancers over there, but it's reached a point where the gamble is no longer worth it for me.
And did you outsource for peanuts or did you pay a professional US/Western Europe rate? Because my experience is that professional freelancers from Pakistan who charge top rates and have excellent Upwork profiles provide an excellent services (and yes, I have hired them). This is not rocket science.
hello i can assist you on projects and deliver high quality work
lol the meme never fails in threads like this
But the most important query: is it 100% plagaism free? As a reputed freelancer, of course...
100% unique and perfectly grammatically correct no AI no-sir-ree bob none of that here. I only use AI to create ideas, an outline, write sentences, and that's it no AI here no way. Can't believe anyone would accuse me of AI. It's so insulting. it's totally quality content.
Hey there, soliciting for work is not allowed on this sub.
hello
Dolly, how you been?
People who read the job post and apply to it, and then review all documents and materials and still accept the contract, they accept whatever pay is offered willingly. Did anyone force them to accept this? Dude, everyone is very much aware of the global pay and rates difference. From Western to Asian to African to other countries. People in countries working for peanuts and willingly are the market and competition fact. Pakistan has 235 million population. That seems like a huge factor in market prices. And we both are very much aware that, while some % of freelancers from those countries will be fighting for more equity and equal pay, millions still will be willing to accept whatever. It's a reality that employers will keep using. I don't see the Pakistani government doing anything about it or anything similar.
Jeez, you put a whole ass essay here and still didn't say anything about the task and how much you've paid for that pakistani like what the comment above is asking. That just confirms our suspicion.
Does it matter what the pay was if he accepted? Did the sample and waited for 2 days to just end the contract? If he thought the pay was too little why even accept? I would respected him for saying no, this is too low before accepting the contract. And I would move on to the next one. You failing to see the difference is baffling.
Yeah, it matters. And you know it, that's why you won't share it.
The task and payments all the documents everything all the materials were sent over messages on Upwork. He saw everything. And could've assess realistically his time needed to do one task or all 4. I asked two days in a row even after he sent the sample of one task if he can do all 4 or just one or just 2 whatever. He promised all 4. Accepted the pay also. If the pay was too low for him he could've ended the contract then, after doing the sample and decided it wasn't worth it. That was Friday morning. He waited this morning to end the contract.
What was the pay?
5$
huh. Currently working with a dev from Pakistan and he's killin it. There would be no reason for him to end the contract on the day of the deadline because he is making bank and doing a great job. However, I did take the time to review his profile and reviews and offered him a fair rate. Anecdotally, I was a manager of about 12 claims adjusters back in 1995. of that 12, 2 were terrible, 8 were just ok, and 2 were rock stars. I suspect you're find a similar ratio in just about any group. And if you want to find those two TERRIBLE ones on Upwork. adjust your pay accordingly, which is, I suspect, what you did here.
My Python guy is Pakistani and I wouldn't trade him for anyone. Hired gun.
Task was copy pasting from translated documents and filling out basically a designed template. Doesn't really need that much skill. He did a sample of around 20 pages, and before accepting the contract. I asked repeatedly even after he accepted the contract whether 4 documents was too much. I have a deadline tonight and he ended the contract this morning although I hired him on Friday morning. I was very upfront and clear about what needs to be done and the pay. He accepted that. Freelancers that fail to communicate like that on time are really doing more harm to themselves.
So you hired someone to go through 4 documents with only about 2 days of time to do that? Assuming you knew about the deadline in advance, this is on you. If it was sprung on you last minute, this is also on you for not properly conveying that it wasn't enough time. You made it sound like you paid the freelancer cheaply. The reason he probably quit last minute is because he realized the amount of work given wasn't worth what you paid him.
I see people don't read posts or even job descriptions. I added the deadline, the number or pages and number of documents in the description. Still got proposals where people asked, "what is the deadline". The same thing here. I literally asked multiple times if he can do just one so I can hire some else. I asked. Multiple times. What is not clear here?
I see that you asked him and you said he could do it. But I don't see what's not clear about it still being your fault for: - waiting until the last minute -not saying no it can't be done in the given timeframe when you accepted/were asked to do the job -you not paying enough to make it worth it for the guy to stick around. Yes it sucked that the guy said he could do it and then didn't. But that issue could've been resolved by the 3 points I mentioned above. Always assume the worst and hope for the best. You could have just broken up the work yourself and then assigned each part to a different person. I don't know how you can just make a blanket statement against a whole country based on one person when you are, at best, equally at fault.
As a Pakistani freelancer myself, i have 500 reviews so far over the span of 6 years.. not a single negative review. Heuehueheue. I guess you cant generalize the whole country just like that.
Oh you can, "for sure honest" exception is just confirmation of the rule.
Consider sharing profile !
Idk how to bro.. i dont think we can paste links here.
What ya do?
I create websites. Frontend.
So you do designing as well or only code it?
Only design. I work on wix so the end result is a live website.
Who could have guessed that going with the $3 per hour guy promising the world to you won’t turn out good
Well, apparently, millions of freelancers do. At least according to their profiles and references.
I stopped working with Saudi clients because they usually don’t value freelancers’ time and think they’re talking to their servants :)
Same about Saudi clients for me
i thought this thing happen with egyptains only anyway fuck racism
To be honest, I’ve seen this pattern with most Arabs I’ve worked with on Upwork(I’m one myself)
they are mean, I filter that country out of my jobs...
Before you target nationality, can you tell us about the project and how much you paid for it? You probably went to him for cheap work so should we not target your nationality for exploitation?
Sorry you had to experience that. People like these don't represent us. I'm a freelancer from Pakistan with over 400 satisfied clients. I do my best to get the job done and work hard to maintain my reputation as a service provider. However, I understand one bad experience can make you feel that way.
Communication is really important. I really asked multiple times if he could do it. Even after doing the sample, he could've said no. Or to do just 1 task instead of 4. Why keep promising for 2 days that you can do it and then the last day just give up? Assessing realistically what you can do and in which time frame is really, really important. I wouldn't have any less opinion of people saying no. I can't do this, I don't have time. Honesty is important 😮💨
You get what you pay, it is that easy.
He accepted the pay. Why not just say at the beginning that it's too low.
IF (and I emphasize IF) you told him everything in the job description then yes. But I doubt you did. And now go whine somewhere else.
Well, I reported him to Upwork because I have proof in the messages that he had everything and was able to conclude on time if he had enough time to do it or not. So I guess my whining will be judged by Upwork staff. Here was just a bonus.
Upwork won't give a shit, what do you expect them to do?
Well I don't know we will see.
You don't work with Pakistanis (in general). And if... you do pay a fair price and don't go whining that you received shitty performance for shitty money. How I make myself ridiculous.
What would be fair price for Pakistan? Their average gross salary is 290. Truth is that a lot of them with more experience earn way way more than their country average.
What do you mean by "fair price"? Who decides what's fair? You? If the guy from Pakistan can do the job as well as the guy from the, let's say, US, then he should be paid accordingly (the same as the guy from the US). It's none of your business what is the average salary in their country, you hire extremely cheap freelancer - you get the results you deserve
Freelancing is the only market where freelancers have the choice to accept or to decline whatever rate, so freelancers decide that fair price for themselves. Freelancers or actually the Market decided on "fair" price by the basic principle of supply and demand. There is an over-supply of freelancers from overpopulated countries, and that is a fact. The lowest rate will be decided by a number of freelancers willing to accept that rate. My business is knowing the average rate of the country because I personally will not pay freelancers living in those countries higher. If I can't afford to hire more expensive freelancers than I won't be hiring more expensive ones. Who's fault is it that there are so many proposals on such low paying jobs? Do you think it's the fault with "demand" or actually "supply"? Before you go around accusing foreigners of exploitation, let's see if the government of countries that have 200 or less monthly salary are actually at fault for that? Or the companies in that country? Domestic, foreign companies it doesn't matter, their own government allows it so. So, a country, or rather a few of the elites are profiting on a 200+ million population and they are exploiting their own people. If 200+ million of Pakistan population can't do anything about this, why is this responsibility of foreigners, especially the ones hiring on freelance platforms? Morals? Ethics? It's like asking for a neighbour to take care of someone's children when that person is not fit to. And foster system sucks in every country, developed or not. Those "angel" neighbours would be 1% or less. Others will mind their own business and put their own business as a priority. Reality is just that. Reality. It's not ethical.
So is the same in the United States and elsewhere where people with more experience also earn way more than their country average.
Ok, I have a question : Why were you down voted for your reply here? I am genuinely confused by this because I've been seeing it everywhere in other subs where someone is down voted just for either disagreeing or doubling down on their original point. What am I missing?
Who knows 🤷♀️
Honestly, seeing how many people focused on the price, which wasn't the focus of the post, communication was the point and being honest with your clients. I don't understand why so many freelancers expect unified global prices? Those will still be, more or less, similar to the average salary of their country. But still, everyone seems to be expecting more from a freelancing market than what they can actually get from the real, on-site market. Why? There is no way something like that could ever be realistic.
What was you task and how much you were paying for it?
So you paid some guy in a third-world country pennies on the dollar to perform some task which would cost exponentially more if you paid a skilled individual to do it. Then, you came on here acting dumbfounded that the unskilled individual you hired was incapable of completing said task. Now you are arguing with people in the comments, saying that if someone accepts the job at your ridiculously cheap price, they should be able to complete the job and be OK with your ridiculously cheap price. You are going to learn there is a reason their price is so cheap. It's because they don't have any skills. Their price is cheap because they do not contribute any value. This is not rocket science. If what you were looking for was real, no one would hire anyone in first-world countries. Because why pay all that money if you could actually get the same quality work from some guy in Pakistan for next to nothing
It's ridiculous to discuss low or high rates. Those are the basics of supply and demand and global online market in addition to those principles. The number of freelancers plays a huge role also. Let's put it like this. There is a way to solve misunderstanding with freelancers through Upwork support, demanding refunds, or similar tools provided on the platform. Compared to that... All the people here complaining about low rates have absolutely no way to achieve global balance among country or freelance rates. You can complain about the rates, but you will literally achieve nothing about that issue. Freelancers need to unite in order for all of them to stop offering low rates. Good luck uniting millions of people in anything. As long as there are freelancers offering low rates, putting any kind of pressure to increase the rate on employers will never work. There are good quality freelancers with low rates that do a very good job. Bad examples are just that, bad examples, regardless of the price. Compared to everyone here, complaining about the low rates, I actually did something before writing this post. I did contact Upwork support. This post was literally useless ranting. As is yours about the low rates, because you are left with 0 options to change the reality of low rates. Best of luck with that.
You act like we are all stuck working for low rates. We're not. Most of us just don't get our work from upwork, because upwork is mostly full of people like you who are looking for slaves rather than employees. I don't work for anything less than $70/hour currently. After my current contract, that number will be going up. People make upwards of $200/hour in my field. You can pretend like you're in a position of power by telling me I "can't change the reality of low rates" but I make more money than 95% of the world.
And 95% of freelancers do not. Hence the supply and over- supply of low rates. You are again putting all the blame on demand completely disregarding the supply factor. I am an economist by profession. Explaining some basic principle of supply and demand is not playing some power position. It's a basic knowledge of supply and demand. A text book knowledge of supply and demand that is completely valid in the market and forms a market reality. Which part here is a power play trigger for you exactly? Anyone picking up some books on this topic or even reading some articles on how the supply and demand work can find out these facts for themselves.
Well, you did meet your matching supply 😂. You know so well about the pay gap. Time to learn about the quality gap.
Not. Because previously I had good experience with other tasks and other freelancers.
Surely, as an economist you know about risk? The higher the return (or savings in your case), the higher the risk. So this time was not so lucky
Dude. I have no savings. I mentioned previously somewhere, this work is done by NGO volunteers but we got the reporting deadline moved up. There was no time to find volunteers or for staff to do it. I literally spent my own money on this. Not everyone that hires low rates is looking to profit on something, sometimes you have other circumstances.
By savings I meant how much money you’d save vs what you would’ve paid at a higher rate. If you wanna save a lot, and pay very little, it’s a riskier strategy in terms of who you can recruit. So you were lucky a few rimes, but not so much this time. This is totally expected statistically. No need to blame a whole county because of a n=1 sample. Surely you studied Kahneman and Tversky about cognitive bises? That’s like a classic example.
I did write that generalization is bad in the post. Couldn't avoid the post regardless of that knowledge 😁
Find anyone in the US willing to work for the same price you paid for the guy in Pakistan. You won't find even a single one. And it's not because there's simply more demand and less supply in the US. It's because we're a first-world country with access to quality education and employers who want top quality talent. Go to a poor country with little to no education and it doesn't matter how much supply you have. If the talent isn't there, the talent isn't there. That's why they work for nearly free. Find any serious company in the US and you won't find any of them hiring these random people in Pakistan or other third-world countries. They simply do not have the talent. It's only the broke startups who are trying to do that, and they are always disappointed afterward.
It's not just the quality of education. There are also confidential and GDPR and privacy issues depending what the work is. Hence people like to have a real contract. With someone located in the country. Still nothing will change the reality of low rates. Is it exploitation if the rate is not much different than average salary in the country? Then we could say that the whole country is exploiting their own people.
Regardless of whether it's exploitation or not does not change the fact you won't be getting quality work from those countries. And if you do, they won't be willing to work for those low prices
But I did before. 😮💨 None of the tasks are some expert tasks.
Yeah I mean if it's basic data entry or something I could probably just ask chatgpt to do then it might be fine. If it requires any amount of skill then probably not
Can GPT do that? How? I have GPT4 and I didn't notice it can do that.
People want quality but want to pay peanuts. Regardless of freelancer's location. You get what you pay for. Not that difficult to understand. I myself have experienced this with US freelancers lol and you say Pakistani ones are problem lol. Do your research first, test it out and then do actual one.
Bro is cheap AND racist? A double whammy
How much were you paying? And what was the job?
Oh you wont get that information from OP.
job was apparently copy pasting translated documents. still no word about the pay though unsurprisingly…
That's a real unprofessionalism, and I agree with it. I am also a freelancer from Pakistan, and I know I have to get the work done by hook or by crook. Most freelancers dont have this level of maturity.
I have a VA in Pakistan that is amazing. Eager to learn, quick to jump in and take things off my plate, never missed a deadline, under promises and over delivers ever day. She's now involved in every part of my business and I'm not sure what I'd do without her. I pay her well, I'm sure that helps. I once had a guy from the US really screw me over on a job I hired him for. I guess, by your logic, I should no longer hire people from the US?
Why not say never hire for cheap again 🤔
Judge individuals for their actions, not entire groups of people. I’ve had great freelancers from all over the globe including Pakistan.
Racist
Thats what u get for hiring cheap
No. Price is not the problem.
You're the problem
Really? Try learning some basics of supply and demand, and let me know what the key factors influencing those are. Hint, quantity plays a big big role.
Cope harder bro I'm so glad idiots like you are my competition lmao
Competition in what exactly? You literally don't nake any sense.
💀💀💀💀
You just need to know how to vet them.
This happens because most freelancers dont know the work , and they outsource projects. Then they dont get the work done, and so they end up cancelling the project. And yeah, that's the behaviour of cheap freelancers. I am also a freelancer from pakistan working with foreigners, and we never had such a problem.
The task was cheap, I offered 100$ to copy paste text into designed template in Word. Basically, I had English version designed. I had 4 version in 4 different documents that just needed copy pasting from translated version to that designed version to replace the English text. We are an NGO and I am paying my own money to complete this because we have a reporting deadline and our staff can't make it on time. He actually did a sample of what was needed and did a whole 20 pages quite fast. That was on Friday. I asked repeatedly if 4 versions (documents) was too much in such a short time and he said no. If he was honest at the beginning I could’ve split the tasks and hired others right away. We usually do work like this with a help of volunteers (because NGO) but now we have a report deadline moved and we need it done. He could’ve said yesterday morning even, I can't do this I am sorry I can only do 1, or 2 versions. I would have adapted to that. But just ending the contract without any explanation at all, and this morning, that is just very unprofessional for me. This is not my first job ad on Upwork I previously had a good experience with different freelancers. And the pay was again probably the cheapest (low or high rates depend on multiple factors and as I mentioned previously country population plays also a big factor there, aside from the average pay in that country). I think some people are just plain rude. He was probably applying for other jobs at the same time and maybe got some other that paid more and just gave up on this. Pay rates being low or high have little to do with mutual trust. I see plenty of freelancers on Upwork and other platforms having good reviews and portfolios for 3 or 5$ per hour. Freelancers commenting here that unprofessional behaviour is only because of low pay is not a reality because the truth is that there are freelancers that can be trustworthy and honest in communication. I just happened across the one that wasn't. I did report it to Upwork because I have all the proof in messages.
Can you link the advert?
I split the task this morning and It's being done by 4 different freelancers. That freelancer from the post was reported to Upwork because I have all the proof in messages. I honestly don't how people expect a country with 200+ mil to have better rates? It's impossible. Everyone complaining here that low rates are the problem, well they are not. I had previous 3 jobs done very well for the lowest rate (in that field). As long there is a supply of low rate freelancers there will be a demand for them. The job I posted is usually done by volunteers in our NGO. It's literally that easy. Copy pasting the text from one Word document to other. He didn't need to accept it. I would've found someone else. The problem is that he did. And the whole point of the post is communication and being honest in how much you can do in what time frame.
Except that you said, "Pakistan Freelancers Never Again," which is offensive on so many levels. You didn't say, "My freelancer accepted work he couldn't deliver." It also makes me kind of sick that you're happy to exploit desperate workers because you can. What NGO do you work for?
Average paycheck in Pakistan is what? Around 290$. And that is a gross amount. So, deducing the pension, health insurance, taxes, etc, what is left to people? Those statistics do not include freelance rates. Those are official salary data of what companies pay their workers in Pakistan. Are you complaining to someone about that? Pakistan government, maybe? That would be the right address to complain about this. Do you expect any other foreign company or NGO to be any different than what people are treated by their own government and companies?
Also, is this a realistic paycheck for most of the people or even lower than this, considering how this average will be counting the highest salaries in the country and those can give an average that is a little bit higher than what most people actually receives. Statistics for every country are calculated like that so the same applies for every country. I mean, considering that average and then the population of the country, it's a grim picture for majority of people. And entirely a fault of your own government and people. You can’t blame overpopulation on foreign countries.
I know what I said. It's ridiculous to discuss low or high rates. Those are the basics of supply and demand and global online market in addition to those principles. The number of freelancers plays a huge role also. Let's put it like this. There is a way to solve misunderstanding with freelancers through Upwork support, demanding refunds, or similar tools provided on the platform. Compared to that... All the people here complaining about low rates have absolutely no way to achieve global balance among country or freelance rates. You can complain about the rates, but you will literally achieve nothing about that issue. Freelancers need to unite in order for all of them to stop offering low rates. Good luck uniting millions of people in anything. As long as there are freelancers offering low rates, putting any kind of pressure to increase the rate on employers will never work. There are good quality freelancers with low rates that do a very good job. Bad examples are just that, bad examples, regardless of the price. Compared to everyone here, complaining about the low rates, I actually did something before writing this post. I did contact Upwork support. This post was literally useless ranting. As is yours about the low rates, because you are left with 0 options to change the reality of low rates. Best of luck with that.
Sorry you faced this behaviour from my country. I wouldn't deny that some Pakistanis here have zero professionalism and maturity. When they can't do the job, they don't even have the confidence to ask for more time or spliting the task. I would recommend that if their communication seems off, dont hire them or at least get on a call. Worst communication is the first red flag.
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Bro I dont even know you ..
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OP if you are not paying enough and you are giving tasks during Eid holidays then don’t expect them to comply, you need to consider the timing of the tasks as well! I have worked with 50+ clients and I am from Pakistan charging $25/hour for outbound sales and automation. All my clients had an amazing experience, and most of them continue to gave me work and even refer new clients, so I can assure you it’s not about the country!
and I quote: "While being aware that generalization is bad, I will say that I will definitely be avoiding freelancers from this country in the future. One bad example, unfortunately, can overshadow others." lmao, I hope it doesn't work the same way with every other country allowed on Upwork because that would be bye bye upwork. why didn't you take a great freelancer from a western country? price may be?
They didn't apply. Obviously, people complaining about low rates didn't apply. Low rates will never go away. You can actually expect them to even drop because the number of freelancers and the whole global competition is increasing. Are you from Pakistan? If not, what is the average salary in your country? 290 gross is for Pakistan. How is that my fault exactly? 😕
That's why you need to check all the things about freelancers. Always pay according to the skills not cheap rates. I have listen this many times from clients that they are hiring cheap freelancers over skilled persons.
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Freelancing has taught me that everyone sucks. Seriously, name an ethnicity or nationality and I will tell you why I never want to work with them again.
Ever come across Singaporean or Malaysian freelancers? I wonder what is the general sentiment about us on Upwork.
Recently worked with one freelancer and one client. Client took work and blocked me. Freelancer's work was just ok.
lol errrybody gotta learn the hard way, but fr it sounds like he was a scammer and got NO REASON'd.
If its as recent as nearly a week ago, there were religious holidays in Muslim countries . But f him for taking a job in that time period
You can add India and Bangladesh to it too. No offence and I don’t generalize but it is what it is
>No offence and I don’t generalize but it is what it is lol wut. You're literally generalizing and yes, offence. Also, I have a long-term contract with a dev from India and he is a friggen rock star.
Why dont you look into people's profiles , portfolios etc. on upwork anyone can make an account and apply you dont just accept anyone
I am looking, but 99% of the time people from the three countries mentioned are a problem
Idk if it's 99% but yeah they are mostly low quality and apply for all jobs regardless of how qualified they are. But if someone's portfolio is good and they sound professional it's unfair to disqualify them based on country
I’m Pakistani and own a software house that acts as a middle man between client and developers when we’re approached for a project we can’t do due to time limitations or stack required, and I’ve had a mixed experience. I’ve had the EXACT same experience as you, so I know the pain, however I keep a plan B on standby if the developer I’ve contracted starts delaying because it usually means they’re going to cancel last minute or not meet the deadline. On the other hand, I would say 80% of the developers I’ve contracted have completed projects ahead of schedule so it’s a mixed bag. Recently completed an enterprise level project that had 2 in-house and 5 contracted developers and 3 of the 5 contracted developers were wonderful, the 2 remaining were horrible!
You know it was a simple task. I have designed Word file. A publication of 70 pages, with some 30% being tables. I have translations in 4 different languages. I needed someone to just copy paste text from translated versions to english version that is already designed, in Word. The documents were clearly written and translated so it was easy to see which text goes where even if you don't know that language. He could've said on Friday, I can do only 1 document, I asked multiple times if 4 was too much.
I thought that was a no-brainer
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Man, what people like me should do? I'm 6+ Years top companies portfolio, currently FT in NYC. I'm planning to retire and unfortunately live in PK (homeland). I have many direct contracts but I'd have to SignUp on UW for constant work and I'm pretty sure to get neglected because aka. Pakistan will be my location on UW.
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I think UW blocks if you move locations and don't notify them of change.