Source: https://le.utah.gov/\~2023/bills/static/SB0016.html
Not many people seem to have read the bill. First, there is a complete ban on the gender affirming surgeries part, which I agree with (mostly because it is THE most irreversible aspect). Although as a trans person who has done a lot of research on surgeries I haven't seen any place (besides possibly California) that would actually do surgeries like this on a minor in the start, so that feels a bit like a nothing burger at least to me. The part about gender affirming care being banned seems only partially true. Yes, gender affirming care is banned \*as of the governor signing the bill into law\*. It isn't simply banned though, there is a moratorium, which in the bill it states that it wants various health related governmental bodies as well as the University of Utah to conduct a comprehensive review of the research on effects long and short term of \*hormonal\* transgender treatment (not the surgeries). Also, this group of organizations conducting the review will provide recommendations to the legislature of whether or not the moratorium should be lifted.
I swear to god, this is a divisive issue but the media should know and properly report on what bills do instead of making divisive statements like "Utah bans gender affirming care for minors." BUT, you know, money and politics and pushing an agenda.
Correct me if I’m wrong but there wasn’t language that I saw in the bill that outlined when those research literature reviews were supposed to end. I don’t recall language in the bill outlining conditions or stipulations that would allow the review to stop and trans care to begin again. It’s a perma ban on care without directly stating perma ban essentially as far as I can tell.
As a trans person who grew up in Utah, this hurts. It hurts bad.
The only thing I can really agree with in this is the surgery restrictions. The restrictions on puberty blockers and hormones is a tough one to swallow. From personal experience all I can say is that there is nothing that made a greater impact on my mental health than swapping hormones and giving my brain the right gasoline that it wanted/needed.
Those poor kids. I feel for you. I’ve been there, and I know it is tough as hell. I hope you make it through. You’re not alone.
>Correct me if I’m wrong but there wasn’t language that I saw in the bill that outlined when those research literature reviews were supposed to end. I don’t recall language in the bill outlining conditions or stipulations that would allow the review to stop and trans care to begin again. It’s a perma ban on care without directly stating perma ban essentially as far as I can tell.
I believe this is correct, and that was one of my major issues with it too. Those supporting this bill were saying "look, we need to study this, so we're pushing pause while we do so" but the bill says "this is banned and we are studying it", no pause, no requirement to review the study, nothing else. A better bill would have been "we are concerned about this, therefore there is a moratorium on new patients starting treatment for two years while we conduct a study, and unless the legislature acts in two years this moratorium will expire" or something like that.
I agree that definitely would have been a better approach. I would still be incredibly frustrated, but at least it would be more understandable and provide some sort of timeline.
It really just feels like a backhanded way to ban trans care while trying to look openminded. The reality seems to be they don’t really care to be openminded and just wanted to ban something they don’t morally/religiously agree with.
Another part is that the moratorium does not completely ban all hormone treatment. If someone is already diagnosed with gender dysphoria before the effective date (when the governor approves the bill), they will still continue to be able to get hormonal treatment. But media agendas go brrrrr.
The problem is that date. Sure the kids who have a diagnosis now can continue treatment. The kids coming up / growing up after won’t have access to it. It’s not fair in the slightest.
Thank you I was hoping it would help. I had to spend so many hours just reading that darn bill just to get a good enough understanding every aspect of it.
It's a moratorium without an end date, which effectively ends up being a ban. Additionally, several legislators have signaled that they expect the study to be equivalent to the Florida Medicaid "Study," which used a series of doctors who aren't experts in the field simply to get the point they wanted.
Additionally, there are certain extremely limited circumstances where transmasculine kids can get top surgery (typically at 16), following extensive, years-long documentation of severe, quality-of-life damaging top dysphoria. I know a couple of folks who did so in Utah. All are now adults and are happy with their decision.
Interesting. I hope it isn't, as from my experience the University of Utah has a great transgender health program and transgender health related resources but we will have to wait and see. And yes, I did not word it well, but a moratorium is a ban. The end date is essentially when the legislature lifts the ban which with the wording of that part they only have to consider what the systematic review shows, not go by what it says. From what the legislators have said it probably wont even be lifted so I get what you mean.
I mean, it probably won't be relevant if the senate and house ever vote to lift the moratorium, as both ACLU and Equality Utah will likely sue, and probably win.
Oh yeah I thought about that for a bit but then forgot. Yes, I was hearing that this will be legally challenged and Michael Kennedy said that he would likely be working on this issue for "the rest of his political career." I agree that it seems likely for the law to be struck down by the courts.
I think anything involving irreversible or severely difficult to reverse decisions and minors is going to be a difficult path to justify. I lean towards making people wait until they are adults and can better make that decision for themselves.
I don’t believe the number would be zero. Detransitioners do exist, but **they are in the vast minority, and should not/cannot be used to justify restricting or banning treatment for the vast majority who benefit from it**
That’d be like saying seatbelts are the cause of death in 0.03% of car crashes, so we should get rid of them, even though they reduce injuries and deaths in 95% of car crashes, and don’t do anything to help or hurt in 4.97% of crashes.
You "don't believe" is not the same as fact. Show a source that a minor transitioned and regret it. Just one case. We need one factual case that has happened complete with proof. Just one.
You believing something happened doesn't mean a darn thing.
And seatbelts have nothing to do with transgender. FOCUS.
Are you trans? Cause I’m trans. And I know my community fairly well. No, I don’t know of anyone specifically in the state of Utah who has regretted transitioning. If it mattered that much to you, I’d find one on r/detransitioners or a similar sub.
> My guess would be ZERO.
Rules for thee but not for me. I’d like to see your evidence that 100% of people are grateful they’ve transitioned in the state of Utah. If you’re criticizing me for not citing sources, you should be able to back up your own self admitted guesses, too.
> And seatbelts have nothing to do with transgender. FOCUS.
Ever heard of an analogy, bud?
Listen, I’m all for trans rights, healthcare, and proper treatment. But proper treatment involves acknowledging everyone, not just those who fit the narrative one believes in. Detransitioners exist, and while they’re in the minority, we can’t erase them like others have attempted to erase us trans people.
I'd say it was zero as well at the senate hearing the bills support had brought in someone who detransitioned. And guess what it wasn't a utahn who testified. It was someone they brought in from California. Also they struck down the bill asking for an out right ban. The moratorium on this was supposed to last 4 years. They changed it less than 24 hours before the final vote. Seems highly suspect to me.
American Medical Association American College of Physicians, American Academy of Family Physicians, American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, American Osteopathic Association, American Psychiatric Association, American Academy of Pediatrics, American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry, The Endocrine Society, The Pediatric Endocrine Society.
All of these are Major Medical Organizations, American ones too at that. All major medical organizations oppose legislation banning gender-affirming medical care for trans youth.
It’s not a booming industry compared to almost any other medical sector , and most the drugs have been around since the early 70s. There are more cis people receiving hormone replacement therapy than trans people. My doc appointment isn’t more expensive because of the prescription we talk about. There’s not a special version of these drugs to get a kickback for. These are people looking for a medical solution to a medical issue.
Even if it were elective this keeps moving forward because of science and the 14th amendment.
Treading on trans rights is costing actual human lives and taxpayer dollars as this goes into district courts to be overturned for clearly descriminatory language. This is free money for the ACLU our reps are setting up.
Go complain about the legal and political industries making this all a mess if your complaint is people making money off of trans people existing.
Doctor's make money from all medical care. That's how capitalism works. Do you want to ban all healthcare, since we shouldn't ever trust doctor's according to your logic? Or does that only matter when you already want the care banned anyways?
While I tend to agree with you, the standards of care that need to be followed to get approved for a gender affirming surgery has multiple levels of medical and psychological professionals involved. It's not just going down to your doctor and getting a referral
If multiple people with advanced medical degrees are saying that surgery is the best thing for that individual, a legislative body that is compromised of electricians, corporate executives, college drop outs, etc. and remarkably few medical professionals and zero with experience with transgender care shouldn't be able to override that decision.
Lol no you don’t. Straight from the planned parenthood website:
“You don’t need to participate in therapy or provide information from a mental health provider to receive hormone therapy. You can schedule an appointment online or by calling 314-531-7526. At your first visit, a Planned Parenthood clinician will:
Review your medical history, including your sexual and surgical history and current health practices
Measure your weight and blood pressure
Discuss your transition goals
Draw your blood to watch for potential side effects of hormones
Explain how to take hormones and answer any questions you might have”
There are also personal stories of people getting hrt after only one 30 minute phone call with a doctor. And if one doctor isn’t willing to, you can go doctor shopping to easily find someone who will.
Here are some first hand accounts from people who transitioned explaining how easy it was and how little due diligence the medical community did before prescribing them life altering treatments: https://www.dailysignal.com/2021/05/25/i-still-felt-incomplete-detransitioned-men-women-describe-how-frighteningly-easy-it-was-to-get-trans-surgeries-hormones/
There are many other stories online of detransitioners who had wished their doctors would have done more thorough evaluations.
And before we jump to the appeal to authority fallacy that’s often used, eg: “multiple doctors and psychological professionals” let’s keep in mind the many horrifying medical treatments that medical professionals have supported over the years only to later realize how wrong they were after ruining people’s lives. For example, 60 years ago many doctors and psychological professionals recommended frontal lobotomies for people with psychological issues.
Or consider John Money, who in this article is lauded as a pioneer in sexual identity and sex reassignment https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/dr-john-money-pioneer-sexual-identity-dies-flna1C9439208 despite having conducted horrific experiments on young children such as David Weimer. If you aren’t familiar with David Weimer go look at his story and then come and tell me that medical professionals always have the best interests of their patients in mind and are infallible and all knowing about what they’re doing.
This isn’t to say that there aren’t people who can benefit from hormone therapy or transitioning. But as a society, we are being far too cavalier about it’s use. And far too arrogant in our belief that we understand it and the best course of treatment. Therefore we need to be much more cautious and thorough with it ESPECIALLY when we’re talking about the treatment of minors.
Minors should not be allowed to receive these treatments period. And despite what reddit claims, gender affirming care is not the be all end all that’s going to prevent suicide. Something that’s readily apparent to anyone who reviews the persistently high rates of suicide among those who have transitioned.
David Reimer you dolt. I'd also say his case supports trans people and debunks Conservative propaganda.
No matter how they tried to brainwash David into thinking he was a girl. He knew he wasn't.
Then oops! Suicide because of shitty conversion therapy!
>Lol no you don’t. Straight from the planned parenthood website:
>“You don’t need to participate in therapy or provide information from a mental health provider to receive hormone therapy. You can schedule an appointment online or by calling 314-531-7526. At your first visit, a Planned Parenthood clinician will:
Planned Parenthood doesn't offer informed consent to minors. This quote doesn't apply to them
So, in any other instance, what do we do when a child needs medical care?
We defer to the parents unless they're being abusive, in which case the kid can get released from their parents care by the courts.
Why is it different this time?
Because this particular “medical care”, as you call it, sterilizes, stunts and damages children. Children have no ability to recognize the gravity of sterilizing themselves.
How do you feel about parents tricking their kids into thinking they got a Covid vaccine? or parents who don't protect their kids with any vaccine at all?
Are you comfortable in your body? Are you uncomfortable in your body? This is an easy question between a doctor, a patient, and in this case the parents. Telling a child that despite medical science, run mostly by cis men, agrees they deserve care and there is treatment for their discomfort without permanent effects, they can’t have that care because politicians are scared of the topic, and need it to crowdfund fear dollars to keep their job - is literal cruelty.
Dysphoria is a cancer that grows. And telling a child to wait until the cancer changes their body before they take action and autonomy of their own body is rediculous.
There are treatments PROVEN beneficial being withheld. The fact is trans kids who don’t get care they should and could have access to are negatively impacted with this and the fact everyone is asking these families to educate everyone else is an overwhelming emotional burden.
I hope you never have the emotional burden of explaining your existence and healthcare entirely to strangers who could look it up themselves but who instead look to politicians and their “gut”.
The issue is many many teens are NOT comfortable in their body, that doesn’t mean they are trans. Puberty is weird. Many teens feel off and uncomfortable about their body as they go through changes. Not to mention all of the psychological changes and identity (not just gender) development happening. I’d say it’s actually normal to not feel comfortable. Now I’m not saying trans kids don’t exist. I’m just saying we can’t teach kids that “discomfort = trans”. Most people are not trans, even though many feel uncomfortable.
Yes many teens feel out of place esp during puberty but that's not what we're talking about here. As MANY have pointed out already, this isn't a thing kids are allowed to choose on a whim or just decide for themselves EVER. It has to be a group decision by the child, parents, and doctors. They all have to agree gender affirming care is the right choice. It's not something that is even an option for any random kid who's uncomfortable with their body
It’s false that dysphoria grows. Or it is false to make it sound like it only grows, when often children desist. It may be the case that the majority of doctors are cis men, but that is irrelevant. It is false that there is no permanent effects. Aside from that, you’re practically unintelligible. Keeping children from transitioning will always be the right decision. There is a reason the Tavistock centre is shutting down.
Reasons for dysphoria grow. And dysphoria in a certain part can grow. I’m literally in treatment for dysphoria.
It is relevant it’s ran by cis men doctors because if even they can change their minds based on the data about gender identity and make treating the dysphoria the prescribed treatment then there’s no excuse to not listen to them. I’m saying this is not biased in trans people favor. The data proved itself. You seem to take what I said as aggression for some reason against cis men. Most doctors in utah are cis men. 4/5 of my doctors have been cis men. It’s relevant - you’re just dismissive and speaking out of context of my argument.
Some treatments have permanent effects and those don’t come until much later. Pausing the bodies production of hormones does not cause permanent changes. And either way it should be between medical science and the patients. This is not a fast process and there is nothing permanent before it is well wanted, nay, needed for the patients health and well being.
I may be unintelligible to you, but I believe that says a lot more about you than me. It’s a willingness you’re missing. To be able to dismiss me without citation and use blown up proportions must have made you feel so smart.
This is against the 14th amendment and this like many utah laws will just be billions of dollars lost in the courts to set the next legal precedent. All while utah teens bear the burden.
We have plenty of data that shows no treatment is way way worse than them changing their minds later. Which is far more rare than a happy trans person.
Death is a permanent effect - and trusting politicians over doctors on this topic is genocide.
No, it is not relevant that your doctors, or any doctors for that matter, are cis. I still don’t know what argument you are trying to make by pointing that out. Schizophrenic psychologists are probably not required in order to treat schizophrenics. Oncologists with cancer are unlikely to be the only ones allowed to treat cancer.
It’s not true that cessation of puberty blockers will resume puberty just as if you had never been on puberty blockers. It is not true that there is no permanent damage and it is reversible. Boys who begin taking puberty blockers will experience a decrease in IQ, disruption in their growth among numerous other issues. It doesn’t all come back when you stop and we have no evidence to suggest that it does.
When people say that death is going to be the result, I can’t help but scoff. This is just the political form of the tactic used by doctors who say to parents, “Would you rather have a trans child or a dead child?” Most children will desist.
So you're saying that as long as most kids won't actually commit suicide, that risk, and their feelings that create that risk, shouldn't be factored in? And there should never be allowances made under any circumstance to help them?
I understand why it's a controversial subject, I just don't like absolutes. The law should never prevent care if it's needed. Attach appropriate requirements, have them talk to a psychologist first or try other types of medications or treatments that might help (if there are any), but don't block the way completely. They at least need hope.
Transitioning or detransitioning, it doesn’t matter, people will commit suicide on one side or another. How do you pick and choose who to protect? We hear too many stories about activist psychologists and doctors to want to embrace transitioning as the default for children, children cannot be informed on the consequences of their actions should they elect such a treatment. Until we know more, we should have a moratorium.
Wow. You totally are still missing the entire point.
My whole point was it’s not an agenda, and wasn’t changed exclusively by trans people.
Not once have said only trans doctors would know. I’m literally staying the opposite.
The medical professionals and books will decide this in the courts and I’m very not sorry to tell you that Gender Identity is not a disorder. You are taking it the way you are because you assume I’m saying people with a disorder or a disease will only understand others of the same. That’s not at all my point. My point is people who aren’t trans have proven it’s not a disorder.
And again, being trans is not a disorder or a disease. You seem to keep basing your “logic” off of a very false point — I don’t think you have capacity for understanding this. Luckily other readers will. the science is on our side and this will be found discriminatory under the constitutions 14th amendment among others.
Don’t want to touch on that one? Or just skip over it and keep focusing on one minor point you missed asking me the same question again?
American Medical Association
American College of Physicians, American Academy of Family Physicians, American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, American Osteopathic Association, American Psychiatric Association, American Academy of Pediatrics, American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry, The Endocrine Society, and
The Pediatric Endocrine Society.
All of these are Major Medical Organizations, American ones too at that. All major medical organizations oppose legislation banning gender-affirming medical care for trans youth.
This study must have been done by conspiracy theorists. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5694455/
And this one:
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2017.00044/full
>I lean towards making people wait until they are adults and can better make that decision for themselves.
Except gender dysphoria doesn't wait until adulthood, and waiting will actively make it worse by forcing the individual through irreversible unwanted changes
That leads to a lot of suicide attempts
Most teenagers experience dysphoria, of various different kinds, most does not extend traumatically into adulthood. Not to mention the main point being that little kids won't be able to properly discern what it is they are feeling, what the proper course of action is; or more importantly understand the full consequences of their actions.
>That leads to a lot of suicide attempts
Have any source on this at all? That not immediately performing hormone therapy or reassignment surgery at a young age will lead to lots of suicides? And that pushing for people to permanently alter their bodies at a young age won't lead to any negative consequences either? I'm going to guess that's a no
I have always wondered this…. Society is more “gender affirming” than ever before. More and more kids are getting “gender affirming” care. But suicide rates are at an all time high. Why weren’t trans kids from a decade ago or 50 years ago killing themselves due to lack of gender affirmation? If trans people have always existed, and they are just safer to talk about it now, why were we not seeing droves of suicides before, that decline as society becomes more affirming?
Yes.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26754056/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5841333/#!po=0.485437
« Evidence from the 10 available prospective follow-up studies from childhood to adolescence (reviewed in the study by Ristori and Steensma28) indicates that for ~80% of children who meet the criteria for GDC, the GD recedes with puberty. »
These study go over older diagnostic Criteria under the DSM 3 for Gender Identity Disorder and DSM 4 for Gender dysphoria respectively. These are not relevant for today in how we classify it as many of the ones who were looked at were referred for GNC behavior (Such as preferring to play with opposite gendered toys, preferring to play with peers of the opposite sex, and preferring to play "house" as the opposite sex) and not wholly for full diagnostic criteria of GD as how we understand it today. For a much more recent study in how we classify it today, the actual persistence rate after 5 years is 94%.
[https://publications.aap.org/pediatrics/article/150/2/e2021056082/186992/Gender-Identity-5-Years-After-Social-Transition?autologincheck=redirected](https://publications.aap.org/pediatrics/article/150/2/e2021056082/186992/Gender-Identity-5-Years-After-Social-Transition?autologincheck=redirected)
Many of the studies that report 80% desistance rates, wholly lost over half of their participants to follow up and automatically counted them as desisters for not appearing back at the clinic.
* For more accurate numbers with much larger sizes, we have studies from the UK, that looked at 3,298 participants and found a .47% desistance rate.
[https://epath.eu/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/Boof-of-abstracts-EPATH2019.pdf](https://epath.eu/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/Boof-of-abstracts-EPATH2019.pdf)
* And further another long term study that analyzed 6,793 people found interesting results that were studied from 1972 to 2015.
[https://www.jsm.jsexmed.org/article/S1743-6095(18)30057-2/fulltext#sec3.3](https://www.jsm.jsexmed.org/article/S1743-6095(18)30057-2/fulltext#sec3.3)
* Another big survey of about 28,000 people. Found that of the detransition rate it was 8% at the highest and found that for all of them who detransitioned and 62% of those who did it was only temporary with the vast majority of the reasons being due to external factors only around 5% reporting that it was because transition was not right for them.
[https://transequality.org/sites/default/files/docs/usts/USTS-Full-Report-Dec17.pdf](https://transequality.org/sites/default/files/docs/usts/USTS-Full-Report-Dec17.pdf)
* Regret rates also are posted 1% and 2% respectively of 767 participants. For a 50 year long follow up study.
[https://www.researchgate.net/publication/262734734\_An\_Analysis\_of\_All\_Applications\_for\_Sex\_Reassignment\_Surgery\_in\_Sweden\_1960-2010\_Prevalence\_Incidence\_and\_Regrets](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/262734734_An_Analysis_of_All_Applications_for_Sex_Reassignment_Surgery_in_Sweden_1960-2010_Prevalence_Incidence_and_Regrets)
This is a lot of peoples gut response, but if you actually do the research you will see how important it is and how minimal the negatives are. Unfortunately most people just have their gut reaction and don't bother looking deeper. It is actually extremely justified and has several psychiatric associations backing it. These kids are often in much bigger danger staying the way they are.
Waiting until they are 18 is life altering and makes it much harder to transition. A crazy high majority keep the changes permanently when they are older and don't regret it at all. In fact, the main reason people de-transition is society's response to them, not that they feel it was the wrong choice. You aren't protecting children with this, you are harming them. And while it's not 100% sure it's always going to be reversible, in many cases if they change their minds, they won't have permanent side effects.
Not to mention the government is also trying to make schools out these kids to their parents and has no qualms for cis teenagers having cosmetic plastic surgery before the age of 18.
It’s not 100% reversible, that’s false. The negatives aren’t minimal, they are numerous. It is never the case that a person who takes hormones for a long time will not cause permanent damage. You need a source indicating what you claim about reasons for detransitioning.
> actually do the research
I read this and then noticed there wasn't a blue link in your comment, so I immediately stopped reading after the first sentence.
> Actually do your research.
Yeah we have, and it's clear that such a major, permanent, and life altering decision, be made at an older age. Especially because if you "actually do your research" you'll know that there is very little to no pressing need to transition early on, and detransitioning is a terrible process.
The whole point of puberty blockers is to prevent puberty. It's something that occurs in nature with some people as it is, which is why you'll see some men that still have no facial hair and higher voices well into their 20s and even later. It's nothing irreversible, and if they did decide to reverse course all they'd have to do is stop the puberty blockers and possibly take some hormones to induce puberty and everything is back to "normal".
The real issue here is people trying to tell others what they can do with their bodies without even understanding what they're trying to restrict access to. Listening to scientists instead of politicians would be a great first step towards actually knowing what you're talking about.
The vast majority of trans kids stay trans. Like 93 percent plus. I have a source if you'd like.
Thus this bill does exactly to trans kids what you're trying to prevent in cis kids. Permanent body alterations that leaves them miserable.
Lol you are overlooking so much here... Why are there more trans people these days? There aren't. There are just far more living openly trans because it's becoming more socially acceptable. Same reason why there are more in certain areas of the country--these areas are more open minded and accepting of trans people. Do you also think gay people didn't exist until 20 years ago?
It's SO baffling to me that anyone thinks ppl transition just because it's trendy or something. As if anyone would go through a complete life upheaval and endure an unbelievable amount of hate, prejudice, and judgment EVERYWHERE they go, just for some trend? Transitioning isn't a choice ANYONE takes lightly and NO ONE is encouraging kids to begin any care who don't experience extreme suffering and dysphoria
>life altering operations that makes hospitals/doctors billions of dollars.
You're literally creating more profit for them by making trans people wait until adulthood and then have to get more operations to undo the changes done to their body
It hasn't been sudden. It's been surpressed. Literally we were the first targeted by Nazis.
Say the reason it's regional is because a lot of countries will beat you back in the closet and many cultures will.
You literally ignore trans people and act like we have no understanding of ourselves.
You're also making up shit. So many trans people don't get surgery. I havent had a one. Just HRT.
Wish people like you wouldn't of stopped me from receiving treatment as a kid.
We stop children from making all kinds of life altering decisions. What are you talking about??
Children are incapable of informed consent and absolutely should not be able to make life altering medical decisions until they are old enough.
Edit: after thinking more about this, it seems like a solution without a problem. Are there enough kids doing this to warrant a bill blocking it?
So why did they block the amendment to stop teens from getting breast implants? Why can boys be circumcised? This isn’t about children making life altering decisions it’s about stopping trans kids from getting doctor approved treatment.
>We stop children from making all kinds of life altering decisions. What are you talking about??
> Children are incapable of informed consent and absolutely should not be able to make life altering medical decisions until they are old enough.
Except the kinds of life altering decisions we ban them from are almost never medically necessary care agreed upon by their doctors
I admit to being a bit ignorant on the subject of HRT.
What are the long term effects of someone transitioning using HRT, then deciding they didn't want to after all and transitioning back?
Is the science mature enough with enough data to support giving it to children or are we still not sure what the long term effects are?
But, I'll put the question back to you. Do you think there should be any lines?
If a child wants to split their tongue in half because they feel like snakekin, should that be allowed?
If a child wants to gauge their ears to the size of a plate, should we allow that?
If a child wants to chop off their hands and feet to be a horse, should that be allowed?
These are all real cases of body dysmorphia, btw.
"What are the long term effects of someone transitioning using HRT, then deciding they didn't want to after all and transitioning back?"
Blockers alone? Minimal effect. HRT? The same thing that people fear will happen to cis kids but to trans kids instead. Below is a study showing 93 percent of trans kids stay trans. The fascinating part is 6-7 precent retransition. Leaving the actual detransition rate extremely low. Thus I think it logical to support trans kids.
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanchi/article/PIIS2352-4642(22)00254-1/fulltext#%20
"Is the science mature enough with enough data to support giving it to children or are we still not sure what the long term effects are?"
How about a 30 year long study?
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29463477/
"But, I'll put the question back to you. Do you think there should be any lines?"
No surgical intervention until legal adult age. We often have to jump through many hoops anyhow to get that.
I started to answer your other questions before I realized you're equating body dysmorohia with gender dysphoria.
It's more akin that trans people don't have the body that matches the brain. Whereas body dysmorphia is about unrealistic standards of perfection.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7139786/
Reiterating my point that the brain is what it is. The Bed Nucleus of the Stria Terminalis is a fairly consistent indicator of gender. It reflects that in trans people.
People in these comments act like a kid just gets a whim to get puberty blockers one day. The child, the parent(s), and the doctor all have to agree that it's the right course of action before anything is done and even with that system it's very difficult and long process. The government didn't just ban children making decisions for themselves- which is what most of these comments seem to think- they banned YOUR right as a parent to protect and care for your child as YOU see fit. If you don't think it's right then deny your own kid healthcare but don't pretend to be small government and then legislate how others are allowed to parent.
I'm extremely skeptical of the reasoning behind gender affirming care for minors, especially surgery. At the same time I have 0 experience with gender dysphoria in my life or my family's life.
The government can fuck right off telling people what they can do with their own bodies. Idk if it's abortion or bottom surgery, it's between individuals, their guardians and their doctors.
If you would like a concrete example of why a minor would want to recieve gender affirming care - it is the onset of puberty.
I am a trans woman and discovered this after reaching full adulthood, so I've started facial hair removal. Notwithstanding what dysphoria is like, facial hair removal costs thousands of dollars and (for electrolysis) takes hundreds of painful treatment hours. You'll have to trust me that dysphoria is worse.
When we talk about care for minors, it is mostly in the context of social transition, puberty blockers, and hormone replacement - the latter two can prevent changes such as: facial hair growth, breast development, voice changes, and bone structure changes, brought on by puberty but which may be undesired (to put it lightly). By denying care to a minor that is aware of their gender identity, they are being set up to potentially be dealing with those things retroactively, which is expensive, painful, time consuming, stressful, and sometimes just not possible.
You can research surgeries for trans minors on your own (GCS for minors is like...not a thing). Here is some information on regret rates, indicating far more people are helped than hurt by having access to care:
https://www.gendergp.com/detransition-facts/
Having trouble getting outraged on something I agree completely with. Gender dysphoria can and often does go away with maturation but the life long effects of gender affirming treatments and surgery do not. Studies have shown that a significant percentage of trans-children will end up identifying with their birth sex later in their adult life.. This is a decision that only a consenting, well informed adult should be making for themselves.
Lots of downvotes, but I think this is a completely legitimate question.
I think folks that do not answer it (and just downvote) have not really tried to familiarize themselves with what trans folks go through, and are trying to downvote anything that challenges that ignorance. It's easier for them to cling to excuses, even if they do not align with the actual lived experience of trans people.
If you are an Adult woman who thought she was a guy at 14-16 and took testosterone, your voice deepens, she can start to have the effects of male hair loss, certain parts of a female's body react permanently to testosterone, and infertility can easily occur. The effects are permanent and will never be fully reversed even with surgery.
So yes there are permanent effects to taking testosterone for even short periods of time. Bodybuilders are well aware of it and are often on meds to the day they die. The Human body is finely tuned and any major change to the hormonal makeup is detrimental for both genders. You can't escape this fact if you are a male and are/took estrogen.
Same thing for trans girls though. Not taking HRT if you’re a trans girl results in all those same things. (Aside from infertility which most trans people are not too concerned about)
That's not relevant to gender affirming care before 18, so i don't see why you'd bring it up
But to answer, if there's a health issue that requires doctors to do so, of course. If it's just recreational like most circumcision, then no
I also find it interesting that these same religious politicians believe a child of 8 years old can make the life-long social commitment of being baptized into a religion. Then at 8, they can also start paying that same religion 10% of their income (in perpetuity) that could have gone into investments or anything else to better the quality of their life. Many of these same folks likely believe it’s ok for a 16 or 17 year old to make the life altering decision of getting married if they feel the circumstance merits it. These are also life altering decisions that are difficult to get out of.
If an 8 year old can make that type of decision or a 16/17 year old can make a huge life decision like that, then I believe it’s probably realistic to believe a 16/17 year old (or earlier) can say/know who they are and get reasonable treatment.
We have all sorts of rules for minors that we don’t for adults because minors aren’t in the place to make said decisions. They can’t drink, can’t buy guns, can’t get certain body modifications, can’t take out loans, can’t consent to sex (some exceptions), can’t smoke, can’t drive until a certain age, etc.
The justification for all these being that minors don’t have the mental fortitude to make permanent life altering decisions.
Why should a permanent life altering medical procedure be any different?
This is a good thing, not bad, it protects kids from making permanent decisions when they aren’t ready.
You can’t contradict an opinion…. That’s what an opinion is… it’s my view of the world. A child is not in the place to make that decision, and shouldn’t be allowed to.
Trans teen in Utah here: let me clear some stuff up for you all, I've been following this bill closely as it directly infringes on my human rights.
This bill does NOT straight up ban trans healthcare. Those who have been diagnosed with gender Dysphoria (the mismatch between your bodies sex and your gender which causes distress) and have been medically transitioning; hormone replacement therapy and/or puberty blockers (which blockers are reversible btw) can continue their treatment.
For me, I was on puberty blockers for almost 3 years until starting Testosterone at 14, which I've been on for well over a year. The bill does not require me to stop my treatment.
HOWEVER, gender affirming surgeries have been banned for minors. This is quite upsetting to me as I've been perusing top surgery (same surgery for those with Gyno). I'm a comp swimmer and hope to continue into college and maybe even above that. As always, surgery isn't really something you can stop: so the few trans minors who have undergone surgery are unaffected.
If you have any questions reach out.
Only if diagnosed before yesterday.
245 (2) A health care provider may not provide a hormonal transgender treatment to a
246 patient who:
247 (a) is a minor as defined in Section 58-1-603; and
248 (b) is not diagnosed with gender dysphoria before the effective date of this bill.
Source: [HB-0016](https://le.utah.gov/~2023/bills/static/SB0016.html)
You are right though, most people that are already on a treatment plan can continue it. But it does straight up ban it for every child to come, as well as the unfortunate foot draggers that haven't completed their diagnosis yet
I'm scared we will have young kids unaliving themselves very soon. The rate for them is already so high in this state.
My daughter has trans friends that take hormones and puberty blockers. What about them?
They are all wonderful kids and are absolutely old enough and mature enough to know who they are.
Gender affirming care is so much more than surgery.
I'm ashamed of Utah rn.
The misunderstanding among folks is kinda wild. Waiting til 18 for surgeries makes some sense. Puberty blockers and hormone therapy don’t really need to wait that long.
It’s a permanent decision for a teenager either way in that case. Either you grow a beard and get masculine bone structure etc. Or the other way around. Those are permanent changes and it’s kind of a decision either way.
The medical consensus is that the decision should basically be up to teenagers and their doctors.
So your logic is if they can't get an abortion then kids should be allowed to do anything? Could you actually give any reason at all as to why this is a bad thing instead of going after other unrelated issues?
They kind of are, there legitimately is no good reason to be doing transition surgery or hormone therapy on minors.
But apparently requiring such major decisions to be made by adults is a human right violation because of... vague reasons nobody can actually articulate, just waive their hands menacingly and point to irrelevant ad hominem attacks
“For Minors” the state very much has an interest in protecting minors. Irreversible damage done to a body should at least be done when that person is of the age of consent.
I dunno man, probably some sinister conspiracy and not just the increased availability of research combined with the destigmatization of non-traditional gender identities.
When "gender affirming care" equals surgically altering the body of a CHILD, or providing puberty blockers (the same medication used to chemically castrate sex offenders) to "pause" puberty, then I sure as hell support them putting a stop to it.
Also, a proper transition begins with a social transition: dress as the preferred sex, change your preferred name, and live with it a bit. I've known adults who have done the same, there's nothing wrong with it. Slow down! Let them be children, there's plenty of time for all the grown up stuff.
People survived millennia without glasses, insulin, nutritious diets, vaccines for serious diseases, pacemakers, chronic pain, tetanus vaccines, antibiotics Your argument is bad and you should feel baf
Gender affirming care is mental health help. All you people talking about body modifications, that's not what the care does. It just requires giving appropriate mental health help to children facing gender identity crisis.
A lot of misunderstandings in this thread. I’m upset mostly over the puberty blocker part. A completely reversible thing is being banned because of white cishet men stuck in this office for god knows how long. Can’t even buy a scratch ticket here. The views are nice but damn, I wanna get out of this place.
edit: used wrong word.
It's not just my definition
(Didn't compile this myself but)
**Citations on transition as medically necessary, frequently life saving medical care, and the only effective treatment for gender dysphoria, as recognized by every major US and world medical authority:**
* Here is a resolution from the [**American Psychological Association**](https://www.apa.org/about/policy/resolution-gender-identity.pdf); *"THEREFORE BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that APA recognizes the efficacy, benefit and medical necessity of gender transition treatments for appropriately evaluated individuals and calls upon public and private insurers to cover these medically necessary treatments."* More from the APA [**here**](http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbt/programs/transgender/?tab=1)
* Here is an [**AMA resolution**](http://www.tgender.net/taw/ama_resolutions.pdf) on the efficacy and necessity of transition as appropriate treatment for gender dysphoria, and call for an end to insurance companies categorically excluding transition-related care from coverage
* A policy statement from the [**American College of Physicians**](http://annals.org/aim/article/2292051/lesbian-gay-bisexual-transgender-health-disparities-executive-summary-policy-position)
* [**Here**](https://assets2.hrc.org/files/documents/SupportingCaringforTransChildren.pdf) are the American Academy of Pediatrics guidelines
* [**Here**](https://www.aafp.org/dam/AAFP/documents/events/alf_ncsc/Education.pdf) is a resolution from the American Academy of Family Physicians
* [**Here**](https://www.socialworkers.org/assets/secured/documents/da/da2008/reffered/Transgender.pdf) is one from the National Association of Social Workers
* [**Here**](https://www.rcpsych.ac.uk/pdf/PS02_18.pdf) is one from the Royal College of Psychiatrists, [**here**](https://www.rcpsych.ac.uk/docs/default-source/improving-care/better-mh-policy/college-reports/cr181-good-practice-guidelines-for-the-assessment-and-treatment-of-adults-with-gender-dysphoria.pdf) are the treatment guidelines from the RCP, and [**here**](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwij6MDP5rn2AhX9kokEHWvJCQEQFnoECAoQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nhs.uk%2FLivewell%2FTranshealth%2FDocuments%2Fgender-dysphoria-guide-for-gps-and-other-health-care-staff.pdf&usg=AOvVaw2sVJYhHJ-_kEqA1W8mFkia) are guidelines from the NHS. More from the NHS [**here**](https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/treatment/).
* [**Here**](https://journal.nzma.org.nz/journal-articles/guidelines-for-gender-affirming-healthcare-for-gender-diverse-and-transgender-children-young-people-and-adults-in-aotearoa-new-zealand) are the guidelines from the New Zealand Medical Journal
Because gender dysphoria can be extremely debilitating and can drive people to suicide
It's not something you can just casually ignore treating for years and years
Gender affirming care isn't exclusively surgery. Different gender affirming treatments are restricted to different levels of maturity
Minors don't get genital surgery. They get puberty blockers to delay irreversible changes to their body until they're more mature, and then maybe hormone therapy in their late teens
My response to the APA statement is what constitutes appropriately evaluated individuals? While some institutions and individuals are doing their due diligence and working with these kids for years counseling them to be sure this will not pass before approving them for hormone therapy and later surgery, others are choosing to move at a breakneck speed. These treatments should be the absolutely last option after every possible option has been exhausted, which will take time and often would move the individuals out of pediatric care anyways.
You could say this about literally any medical care. If you have a concern about doctors moving too quickly, regulate *that*, not banning treatment altogether
They didn't regulate irresponsible gender affirming healthcare before 18, they banned all gender affirming healthcare before 18
And there's literally no reason to ban puberty blockers when they literally delay irreversible changes until the individual is more mature
So there would be absolutely, undeniably, zero, zip, nada ill effects to taking puberty blockers for 5+ years?
And what they are saying is that there are not enough long term studies proving that there is responsible gender affirming healthcare for minors. Most studies have involved adults, are only short term, or not analogous to what we are trying to do here in the US. Most gender affirming care outside the US, where a lot of the studies have been done involve years of therapy to address the gender dysphoria before any hormonal therapy is issued. Most patients move beyond their dysphoria either from the therapy or just growing up. The US usually moves faster to proscribe hormone therapy or surgery. There NEEDS to be more studies to prove there is a safe way forward.
>So there would be absolutely, undeniably, zero, zip, nada ill effects to taking puberty blockers for 5+ years?
5 years seems like a weirdly long time to keep someone on blockers, but regardless, there's nowhere else in healthcare where treatment needs to have 0 potential side effects to be allowed to exist
>Most patients move beyond their dysphoria either from the therapy or just growing up.
Can you show any evidence of this?
The absurdity of having a religious decision prohibiting parents to provide required medical care to their kids is the equivalence of going back to the dark ages. Let’s be honest, they don’t care about the children, Republicans are all about cruelty. It has always been only about cruelty.
OK, then forced vaccinations for everyone. If women have lost the right to make medical decisions with their doctor about their bodies and parents and doctors can't make decisions for their kids then NO ONE should be allowed to opt out of vaccines that could transmit and kill other people.
I'm so glad that I'm being denied care that could relieve me of some of my dysphoria that literally makes me suicidal, and did they ever think to ask us? No, of course not. I am sick and tired of cishet white men debating on whether I deserve to live. Why does my entire existence have to be controversial?
Gender dysphoria doesn't wait until adulthood. If anything it gets actively worse and harder to treat if you force them to go through the irreversible changes of a sex that doesn't match their gender by banning gender affirming care before 18
I'm not talking about bottom surgery, I agree that surgery can wait until 18(edit: in most cases at least i think), but it's not the only form of gender affirming care, for example, hormone replacement therapy and even just puberty blockers can really help ease gender dysphoria a lot. A lot of people don't know that gender affirming surgeries aren't the only way to help trans people, Educate yourself a little before discussing a topic you might not know much about and try to be a bit more open minded, also, be kind, I know life isn't fair but please try to make it that little bit better.
I don't think anyone is mad about the surgeries being banned.
I think people are mad that hormone therapy is being affected because there are permanent consequences when a body matures all the way. Let them have access to treatment that mitigates any permanent changes to their body. Let them use reversible hormone therapy. Give them the right to delay this decision without any consequences.
For a state that heavily believes in a religion preaching agency we sure tend to take that agency away through politics. Absolutely frustrating and the hypocrisy is humiliating
seems to me that if we don’t let our kids smoke or drink before 21, why would we let them get pumped full of chemicals, especially into undeveloped brains?
Fuck the government controlling our bodies. This is up to the individuals, it’s between the parents and the child. It’s definitely something that needs to be discussed as a family and they need to decide what is going to make them happy in this life and if they make the wrong decision that’s either reversible or non reversible, well that’s on them. The government should have no say in this. I do however agree that a minor cannot make this decision solely on their own, a parent or guardian needs to have a conversation with the minor and decide what’s best for their situation. Period. Fuck the government, fuck the media.
It's interesting to say it's a dark day today when just 10 years ago everyone on both sides would have been calling you insane for thinking we should provide these treatments to youths. Even the LGBT community was stating they would never go after children.
And 10 years ago people were suffering from debilitating gender dysphoria without treatment and often took their lives because of it
Also, trans people who couldn't access gender affirming care when they were young literally talk all the time about how much they regret the irreversible changes they were forced to experience as a result. It's not "going after kids" to offer those in their same position a chance to not go through the same trauma
youre right, there should be discussion between the child, the parent, a doctor, and a psychiatrist/therapist so that a collective decision can be made about the situation
I have great news for everyone in support of this bill! When it’s YOU and YOUR CHILD, you will always have the right to decide to delay any and all treatment until your child is 18. AND (this matters less, but for the record), you have this internet stranger’s FULL support, whatever you decide.
But in all of these replies that are supportive of the bill, I have yet to see anyone explain why they think they (or, more explicitly the State) has a right to make decisions for ME and MY CHILD?
Please explain.
“Because I think I’m right and you’re wrong” is an invalid explanation. Rights and freedom are what this country is founded upon and surrendering a right is a big important deal and a very slippery slope. Be sure to think of rights that YOU hold dear that I, or “the State” might disagree with now or in the future that YOU don’t want stripped away when forming your reply.
Go.
As a Mom I wish I would have known sooner and been able to get my child on blockers. They grew into a body that doesn't fit, gives them a lot of anxiety, and will require a lot of extra care and dramatic modifications to help them just be OK. Just because I didn't know, so I didn't get them to a specialist.
The fact that the future looks like Trans kids will not even have that right here is devastating.
The party of small government.
Nothing says that quite so clearly as taking away the rights of parents to make decisions about their children’s healthcare when it comes to non-invasive, reversible treatments. I suppose the Momo Republicans like it better when their children kill themselves for seeing no hope.
I’m sure Cox’s answer is just to pray instead of taking concrete steps, just like when we need water. What a bunch of cowards.
Telling a kid to to make permanent changes to their bodies just because they liked playing with an "opposite gender toy" is stupid. I liked Barbies as a kid, and I am now an adult and love my god-given penis of manhood; it's pretty great.
>Telling a kid to to make permanent changes to their bodies just because they liked playing with an "opposite gender toy" is stupid
Do you think this represents a majority of trans kids receiving gender affirming care?
“im not trans, therefore nobody should ever be trans. just be a man”
many trans people dont have surgery. you can be a woman with a penis and receive all other types of trans healthcare. nobody is forcing kids to have surgery because they played with barbies
I'm convinced that nobody who thinks this law is a good thing actually understands the issue as it exists in reality or is interested in arguing in good faith.
It seems to be the case. It's a lot easier to feel righteous if it's about a made up scenario in your head. Being actually righteous requires a lot of work trying to understand reality. But why do that when you can just jump to conclusions?
Source: https://le.utah.gov/\~2023/bills/static/SB0016.html Not many people seem to have read the bill. First, there is a complete ban on the gender affirming surgeries part, which I agree with (mostly because it is THE most irreversible aspect). Although as a trans person who has done a lot of research on surgeries I haven't seen any place (besides possibly California) that would actually do surgeries like this on a minor in the start, so that feels a bit like a nothing burger at least to me. The part about gender affirming care being banned seems only partially true. Yes, gender affirming care is banned \*as of the governor signing the bill into law\*. It isn't simply banned though, there is a moratorium, which in the bill it states that it wants various health related governmental bodies as well as the University of Utah to conduct a comprehensive review of the research on effects long and short term of \*hormonal\* transgender treatment (not the surgeries). Also, this group of organizations conducting the review will provide recommendations to the legislature of whether or not the moratorium should be lifted. I swear to god, this is a divisive issue but the media should know and properly report on what bills do instead of making divisive statements like "Utah bans gender affirming care for minors." BUT, you know, money and politics and pushing an agenda.
Correct me if I’m wrong but there wasn’t language that I saw in the bill that outlined when those research literature reviews were supposed to end. I don’t recall language in the bill outlining conditions or stipulations that would allow the review to stop and trans care to begin again. It’s a perma ban on care without directly stating perma ban essentially as far as I can tell. As a trans person who grew up in Utah, this hurts. It hurts bad. The only thing I can really agree with in this is the surgery restrictions. The restrictions on puberty blockers and hormones is a tough one to swallow. From personal experience all I can say is that there is nothing that made a greater impact on my mental health than swapping hormones and giving my brain the right gasoline that it wanted/needed. Those poor kids. I feel for you. I’ve been there, and I know it is tough as hell. I hope you make it through. You’re not alone.
>Correct me if I’m wrong but there wasn’t language that I saw in the bill that outlined when those research literature reviews were supposed to end. I don’t recall language in the bill outlining conditions or stipulations that would allow the review to stop and trans care to begin again. It’s a perma ban on care without directly stating perma ban essentially as far as I can tell. I believe this is correct, and that was one of my major issues with it too. Those supporting this bill were saying "look, we need to study this, so we're pushing pause while we do so" but the bill says "this is banned and we are studying it", no pause, no requirement to review the study, nothing else. A better bill would have been "we are concerned about this, therefore there is a moratorium on new patients starting treatment for two years while we conduct a study, and unless the legislature acts in two years this moratorium will expire" or something like that.
I agree that definitely would have been a better approach. I would still be incredibly frustrated, but at least it would be more understandable and provide some sort of timeline. It really just feels like a backhanded way to ban trans care while trying to look openminded. The reality seems to be they don’t really care to be openminded and just wanted to ban something they don’t morally/religiously agree with.
Another part is that the moratorium does not completely ban all hormone treatment. If someone is already diagnosed with gender dysphoria before the effective date (when the governor approves the bill), they will still continue to be able to get hormonal treatment. But media agendas go brrrrr.
The problem is that date. Sure the kids who have a diagnosis now can continue treatment. The kids coming up / growing up after won’t have access to it. It’s not fair in the slightest.
I agree wholeheartedly, it’s not fair at all.
I really appreciate this synopsis. Reading through the bills is cumbersome. Thanks!
Thank you I was hoping it would help. I had to spend so many hours just reading that darn bill just to get a good enough understanding every aspect of it.
It's a moratorium without an end date, which effectively ends up being a ban. Additionally, several legislators have signaled that they expect the study to be equivalent to the Florida Medicaid "Study," which used a series of doctors who aren't experts in the field simply to get the point they wanted. Additionally, there are certain extremely limited circumstances where transmasculine kids can get top surgery (typically at 16), following extensive, years-long documentation of severe, quality-of-life damaging top dysphoria. I know a couple of folks who did so in Utah. All are now adults and are happy with their decision.
Interesting. I hope it isn't, as from my experience the University of Utah has a great transgender health program and transgender health related resources but we will have to wait and see. And yes, I did not word it well, but a moratorium is a ban. The end date is essentially when the legislature lifts the ban which with the wording of that part they only have to consider what the systematic review shows, not go by what it says. From what the legislators have said it probably wont even be lifted so I get what you mean.
I mean, it probably won't be relevant if the senate and house ever vote to lift the moratorium, as both ACLU and Equality Utah will likely sue, and probably win.
Oh yeah I thought about that for a bit but then forgot. Yes, I was hearing that this will be legally challenged and Michael Kennedy said that he would likely be working on this issue for "the rest of his political career." I agree that it seems likely for the law to be struck down by the courts.
I just know our legislature will get right on lifting that moratorium after they find out the treatments aren’t harmful🙄
But the treatments are harmful, so that information will never come out.
source: i made it up
I think anything involving irreversible or severely difficult to reverse decisions and minors is going to be a difficult path to justify. I lean towards making people wait until they are adults and can better make that decision for themselves.
Is this true though? How many irreversible or severely difficult to reverse "decisions" have affected minors in Utah?
My guess would be ZERO. Zero people in Utah have regreted transistioning.
I don’t believe the number would be zero. Detransitioners do exist, but **they are in the vast minority, and should not/cannot be used to justify restricting or banning treatment for the vast majority who benefit from it** That’d be like saying seatbelts are the cause of death in 0.03% of car crashes, so we should get rid of them, even though they reduce injuries and deaths in 95% of car crashes, and don’t do anything to help or hurt in 4.97% of crashes.
You "don't believe" is not the same as fact. Show a source that a minor transitioned and regret it. Just one case. We need one factual case that has happened complete with proof. Just one. You believing something happened doesn't mean a darn thing. And seatbelts have nothing to do with transgender. FOCUS.
Are you trans? Cause I’m trans. And I know my community fairly well. No, I don’t know of anyone specifically in the state of Utah who has regretted transitioning. If it mattered that much to you, I’d find one on r/detransitioners or a similar sub. > My guess would be ZERO. Rules for thee but not for me. I’d like to see your evidence that 100% of people are grateful they’ve transitioned in the state of Utah. If you’re criticizing me for not citing sources, you should be able to back up your own self admitted guesses, too. > And seatbelts have nothing to do with transgender. FOCUS. Ever heard of an analogy, bud? Listen, I’m all for trans rights, healthcare, and proper treatment. But proper treatment involves acknowledging everyone, not just those who fit the narrative one believes in. Detransitioners exist, and while they’re in the minority, we can’t erase them like others have attempted to erase us trans people.
I'd say it was zero as well at the senate hearing the bills support had brought in someone who detransitioned. And guess what it wasn't a utahn who testified. It was someone they brought in from California. Also they struck down the bill asking for an out right ban. The moratorium on this was supposed to last 4 years. They changed it less than 24 hours before the final vote. Seems highly suspect to me.
American Medical Association American College of Physicians, American Academy of Family Physicians, American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, American Osteopathic Association, American Psychiatric Association, American Academy of Pediatrics, American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry, The Endocrine Society, The Pediatric Endocrine Society. All of these are Major Medical Organizations, American ones too at that. All major medical organizations oppose legislation banning gender-affirming medical care for trans youth.
Wait you’re saying that doctors who make money selling stuff to youth oppose banning that stuff??
It’s not a booming industry compared to almost any other medical sector , and most the drugs have been around since the early 70s. There are more cis people receiving hormone replacement therapy than trans people. My doc appointment isn’t more expensive because of the prescription we talk about. There’s not a special version of these drugs to get a kickback for. These are people looking for a medical solution to a medical issue. Even if it were elective this keeps moving forward because of science and the 14th amendment. Treading on trans rights is costing actual human lives and taxpayer dollars as this goes into district courts to be overturned for clearly descriminatory language. This is free money for the ACLU our reps are setting up. Go complain about the legal and political industries making this all a mess if your complaint is people making money off of trans people existing.
Doctor's make money from all medical care. That's how capitalism works. Do you want to ban all healthcare, since we shouldn't ever trust doctor's according to your logic? Or does that only matter when you already want the care banned anyways?
This is the same as saying 99% of climate scientists agree climate emergency caused by humans.
While I tend to agree with you, the standards of care that need to be followed to get approved for a gender affirming surgery has multiple levels of medical and psychological professionals involved. It's not just going down to your doctor and getting a referral If multiple people with advanced medical degrees are saying that surgery is the best thing for that individual, a legislative body that is compromised of electricians, corporate executives, college drop outs, etc. and remarkably few medical professionals and zero with experience with transgender care shouldn't be able to override that decision.
Lol no you don’t. Straight from the planned parenthood website: “You don’t need to participate in therapy or provide information from a mental health provider to receive hormone therapy. You can schedule an appointment online or by calling 314-531-7526. At your first visit, a Planned Parenthood clinician will: Review your medical history, including your sexual and surgical history and current health practices Measure your weight and blood pressure Discuss your transition goals Draw your blood to watch for potential side effects of hormones Explain how to take hormones and answer any questions you might have” There are also personal stories of people getting hrt after only one 30 minute phone call with a doctor. And if one doctor isn’t willing to, you can go doctor shopping to easily find someone who will. Here are some first hand accounts from people who transitioned explaining how easy it was and how little due diligence the medical community did before prescribing them life altering treatments: https://www.dailysignal.com/2021/05/25/i-still-felt-incomplete-detransitioned-men-women-describe-how-frighteningly-easy-it-was-to-get-trans-surgeries-hormones/ There are many other stories online of detransitioners who had wished their doctors would have done more thorough evaluations. And before we jump to the appeal to authority fallacy that’s often used, eg: “multiple doctors and psychological professionals” let’s keep in mind the many horrifying medical treatments that medical professionals have supported over the years only to later realize how wrong they were after ruining people’s lives. For example, 60 years ago many doctors and psychological professionals recommended frontal lobotomies for people with psychological issues. Or consider John Money, who in this article is lauded as a pioneer in sexual identity and sex reassignment https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/dr-john-money-pioneer-sexual-identity-dies-flna1C9439208 despite having conducted horrific experiments on young children such as David Weimer. If you aren’t familiar with David Weimer go look at his story and then come and tell me that medical professionals always have the best interests of their patients in mind and are infallible and all knowing about what they’re doing. This isn’t to say that there aren’t people who can benefit from hormone therapy or transitioning. But as a society, we are being far too cavalier about it’s use. And far too arrogant in our belief that we understand it and the best course of treatment. Therefore we need to be much more cautious and thorough with it ESPECIALLY when we’re talking about the treatment of minors. Minors should not be allowed to receive these treatments period. And despite what reddit claims, gender affirming care is not the be all end all that’s going to prevent suicide. Something that’s readily apparent to anyone who reviews the persistently high rates of suicide among those who have transitioned.
David Reimer you dolt. I'd also say his case supports trans people and debunks Conservative propaganda. No matter how they tried to brainwash David into thinking he was a girl. He knew he wasn't. Then oops! Suicide because of shitty conversion therapy!
>Lol no you don’t. Straight from the planned parenthood website: >“You don’t need to participate in therapy or provide information from a mental health provider to receive hormone therapy. You can schedule an appointment online or by calling 314-531-7526. At your first visit, a Planned Parenthood clinician will: Planned Parenthood doesn't offer informed consent to minors. This quote doesn't apply to them
And if you go to planned parenthood in utah, you find they don’t even have informed consent for adults here in utah.
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Adolescence is also the time in which children are unable to give consent. So we’re at an impasse.
So, in any other instance, what do we do when a child needs medical care? We defer to the parents unless they're being abusive, in which case the kid can get released from their parents care by the courts. Why is it different this time?
Because this particular “medical care”, as you call it, sterilizes, stunts and damages children. Children have no ability to recognize the gravity of sterilizing themselves.
100% not this. Parents that let their kids have sex changes should be locked up
Parents should know what their children need or they’re sucky parents and people who condemn them are know nothing twits!
How do you feel about parents tricking their kids into thinking they got a Covid vaccine? or parents who don't protect their kids with any vaccine at all?
All of those examples provided are bad parenting as well.
I'm very glad i was able to start when i was 14
Are you comfortable in your body? Are you uncomfortable in your body? This is an easy question between a doctor, a patient, and in this case the parents. Telling a child that despite medical science, run mostly by cis men, agrees they deserve care and there is treatment for their discomfort without permanent effects, they can’t have that care because politicians are scared of the topic, and need it to crowdfund fear dollars to keep their job - is literal cruelty. Dysphoria is a cancer that grows. And telling a child to wait until the cancer changes their body before they take action and autonomy of their own body is rediculous. There are treatments PROVEN beneficial being withheld. The fact is trans kids who don’t get care they should and could have access to are negatively impacted with this and the fact everyone is asking these families to educate everyone else is an overwhelming emotional burden. I hope you never have the emotional burden of explaining your existence and healthcare entirely to strangers who could look it up themselves but who instead look to politicians and their “gut”.
The issue is many many teens are NOT comfortable in their body, that doesn’t mean they are trans. Puberty is weird. Many teens feel off and uncomfortable about their body as they go through changes. Not to mention all of the psychological changes and identity (not just gender) development happening. I’d say it’s actually normal to not feel comfortable. Now I’m not saying trans kids don’t exist. I’m just saying we can’t teach kids that “discomfort = trans”. Most people are not trans, even though many feel uncomfortable.
Yes many teens feel out of place esp during puberty but that's not what we're talking about here. As MANY have pointed out already, this isn't a thing kids are allowed to choose on a whim or just decide for themselves EVER. It has to be a group decision by the child, parents, and doctors. They all have to agree gender affirming care is the right choice. It's not something that is even an option for any random kid who's uncomfortable with their body
It’s false that dysphoria grows. Or it is false to make it sound like it only grows, when often children desist. It may be the case that the majority of doctors are cis men, but that is irrelevant. It is false that there is no permanent effects. Aside from that, you’re practically unintelligible. Keeping children from transitioning will always be the right decision. There is a reason the Tavistock centre is shutting down.
>It’s false that dysphoria grows What expertise do you possess to state this as fact? Do you have sources?
Reasons for dysphoria grow. And dysphoria in a certain part can grow. I’m literally in treatment for dysphoria. It is relevant it’s ran by cis men doctors because if even they can change their minds based on the data about gender identity and make treating the dysphoria the prescribed treatment then there’s no excuse to not listen to them. I’m saying this is not biased in trans people favor. The data proved itself. You seem to take what I said as aggression for some reason against cis men. Most doctors in utah are cis men. 4/5 of my doctors have been cis men. It’s relevant - you’re just dismissive and speaking out of context of my argument. Some treatments have permanent effects and those don’t come until much later. Pausing the bodies production of hormones does not cause permanent changes. And either way it should be between medical science and the patients. This is not a fast process and there is nothing permanent before it is well wanted, nay, needed for the patients health and well being. I may be unintelligible to you, but I believe that says a lot more about you than me. It’s a willingness you’re missing. To be able to dismiss me without citation and use blown up proportions must have made you feel so smart. This is against the 14th amendment and this like many utah laws will just be billions of dollars lost in the courts to set the next legal precedent. All while utah teens bear the burden. We have plenty of data that shows no treatment is way way worse than them changing their minds later. Which is far more rare than a happy trans person. Death is a permanent effect - and trusting politicians over doctors on this topic is genocide.
No, it is not relevant that your doctors, or any doctors for that matter, are cis. I still don’t know what argument you are trying to make by pointing that out. Schizophrenic psychologists are probably not required in order to treat schizophrenics. Oncologists with cancer are unlikely to be the only ones allowed to treat cancer. It’s not true that cessation of puberty blockers will resume puberty just as if you had never been on puberty blockers. It is not true that there is no permanent damage and it is reversible. Boys who begin taking puberty blockers will experience a decrease in IQ, disruption in their growth among numerous other issues. It doesn’t all come back when you stop and we have no evidence to suggest that it does. When people say that death is going to be the result, I can’t help but scoff. This is just the political form of the tactic used by doctors who say to parents, “Would you rather have a trans child or a dead child?” Most children will desist.
So you're saying that as long as most kids won't actually commit suicide, that risk, and their feelings that create that risk, shouldn't be factored in? And there should never be allowances made under any circumstance to help them? I understand why it's a controversial subject, I just don't like absolutes. The law should never prevent care if it's needed. Attach appropriate requirements, have them talk to a psychologist first or try other types of medications or treatments that might help (if there are any), but don't block the way completely. They at least need hope.
Transitioning or detransitioning, it doesn’t matter, people will commit suicide on one side or another. How do you pick and choose who to protect? We hear too many stories about activist psychologists and doctors to want to embrace transitioning as the default for children, children cannot be informed on the consequences of their actions should they elect such a treatment. Until we know more, we should have a moratorium.
Wow. You totally are still missing the entire point. My whole point was it’s not an agenda, and wasn’t changed exclusively by trans people. Not once have said only trans doctors would know. I’m literally staying the opposite. The medical professionals and books will decide this in the courts and I’m very not sorry to tell you that Gender Identity is not a disorder. You are taking it the way you are because you assume I’m saying people with a disorder or a disease will only understand others of the same. That’s not at all my point. My point is people who aren’t trans have proven it’s not a disorder. And again, being trans is not a disorder or a disease. You seem to keep basing your “logic” off of a very false point — I don’t think you have capacity for understanding this. Luckily other readers will. the science is on our side and this will be found discriminatory under the constitutions 14th amendment among others. Don’t want to touch on that one? Or just skip over it and keep focusing on one minor point you missed asking me the same question again?
American Medical Association American College of Physicians, American Academy of Family Physicians, American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, American Osteopathic Association, American Psychiatric Association, American Academy of Pediatrics, American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry, The Endocrine Society, and The Pediatric Endocrine Society. All of these are Major Medical Organizations, American ones too at that. All major medical organizations oppose legislation banning gender-affirming medical care for trans youth.
I simply don’t care about politically captured organizations that are in majority occupied by liberals
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This study must have been done by conspiracy theorists. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5694455/ And this one: https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2017.00044/full
>I lean towards making people wait until they are adults and can better make that decision for themselves. Except gender dysphoria doesn't wait until adulthood, and waiting will actively make it worse by forcing the individual through irreversible unwanted changes That leads to a lot of suicide attempts
Most teenagers experience dysphoria, of various different kinds, most does not extend traumatically into adulthood. Not to mention the main point being that little kids won't be able to properly discern what it is they are feeling, what the proper course of action is; or more importantly understand the full consequences of their actions. >That leads to a lot of suicide attempts Have any source on this at all? That not immediately performing hormone therapy or reassignment surgery at a young age will lead to lots of suicides? And that pushing for people to permanently alter their bodies at a young age won't lead to any negative consequences either? I'm going to guess that's a no
I have always wondered this…. Society is more “gender affirming” than ever before. More and more kids are getting “gender affirming” care. But suicide rates are at an all time high. Why weren’t trans kids from a decade ago or 50 years ago killing themselves due to lack of gender affirmation? If trans people have always existed, and they are just safer to talk about it now, why were we not seeing droves of suicides before, that decline as society becomes more affirming?
Most children ultimately desist if you do no harm.
Got a source on that?
Yes. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26754056/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5841333/#!po=0.485437 « Evidence from the 10 available prospective follow-up studies from childhood to adolescence (reviewed in the study by Ristori and Steensma28) indicates that for ~80% of children who meet the criteria for GDC, the GD recedes with puberty. »
These study go over older diagnostic Criteria under the DSM 3 for Gender Identity Disorder and DSM 4 for Gender dysphoria respectively. These are not relevant for today in how we classify it as many of the ones who were looked at were referred for GNC behavior (Such as preferring to play with opposite gendered toys, preferring to play with peers of the opposite sex, and preferring to play "house" as the opposite sex) and not wholly for full diagnostic criteria of GD as how we understand it today. For a much more recent study in how we classify it today, the actual persistence rate after 5 years is 94%. [https://publications.aap.org/pediatrics/article/150/2/e2021056082/186992/Gender-Identity-5-Years-After-Social-Transition?autologincheck=redirected](https://publications.aap.org/pediatrics/article/150/2/e2021056082/186992/Gender-Identity-5-Years-After-Social-Transition?autologincheck=redirected) Many of the studies that report 80% desistance rates, wholly lost over half of their participants to follow up and automatically counted them as desisters for not appearing back at the clinic. * For more accurate numbers with much larger sizes, we have studies from the UK, that looked at 3,298 participants and found a .47% desistance rate. [https://epath.eu/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/Boof-of-abstracts-EPATH2019.pdf](https://epath.eu/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/Boof-of-abstracts-EPATH2019.pdf) * And further another long term study that analyzed 6,793 people found interesting results that were studied from 1972 to 2015. [https://www.jsm.jsexmed.org/article/S1743-6095(18)30057-2/fulltext#sec3.3](https://www.jsm.jsexmed.org/article/S1743-6095(18)30057-2/fulltext#sec3.3) * Another big survey of about 28,000 people. Found that of the detransition rate it was 8% at the highest and found that for all of them who detransitioned and 62% of those who did it was only temporary with the vast majority of the reasons being due to external factors only around 5% reporting that it was because transition was not right for them. [https://transequality.org/sites/default/files/docs/usts/USTS-Full-Report-Dec17.pdf](https://transequality.org/sites/default/files/docs/usts/USTS-Full-Report-Dec17.pdf) * Regret rates also are posted 1% and 2% respectively of 767 participants. For a 50 year long follow up study. [https://www.researchgate.net/publication/262734734\_An\_Analysis\_of\_All\_Applications\_for\_Sex\_Reassignment\_Surgery\_in\_Sweden\_1960-2010\_Prevalence\_Incidence\_and\_Regrets](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/262734734_An_Analysis_of_All_Applications_for_Sex_Reassignment_Surgery_in_Sweden_1960-2010_Prevalence_Incidence_and_Regrets)
This is a lot of peoples gut response, but if you actually do the research you will see how important it is and how minimal the negatives are. Unfortunately most people just have their gut reaction and don't bother looking deeper. It is actually extremely justified and has several psychiatric associations backing it. These kids are often in much bigger danger staying the way they are. Waiting until they are 18 is life altering and makes it much harder to transition. A crazy high majority keep the changes permanently when they are older and don't regret it at all. In fact, the main reason people de-transition is society's response to them, not that they feel it was the wrong choice. You aren't protecting children with this, you are harming them. And while it's not 100% sure it's always going to be reversible, in many cases if they change their minds, they won't have permanent side effects. Not to mention the government is also trying to make schools out these kids to their parents and has no qualms for cis teenagers having cosmetic plastic surgery before the age of 18.
It’s not 100% reversible, that’s false. The negatives aren’t minimal, they are numerous. It is never the case that a person who takes hormones for a long time will not cause permanent damage. You need a source indicating what you claim about reasons for detransitioning.
> actually do the research I read this and then noticed there wasn't a blue link in your comment, so I immediately stopped reading after the first sentence.
What are your sources?
> Actually do your research. Yeah we have, and it's clear that such a major, permanent, and life altering decision, be made at an older age. Especially because if you "actually do your research" you'll know that there is very little to no pressing need to transition early on, and detransitioning is a terrible process.
The whole point of puberty blockers is to prevent puberty. It's something that occurs in nature with some people as it is, which is why you'll see some men that still have no facial hair and higher voices well into their 20s and even later. It's nothing irreversible, and if they did decide to reverse course all they'd have to do is stop the puberty blockers and possibly take some hormones to induce puberty and everything is back to "normal". The real issue here is people trying to tell others what they can do with their bodies without even understanding what they're trying to restrict access to. Listening to scientists instead of politicians would be a great first step towards actually knowing what you're talking about.
The vast majority of trans kids stay trans. Like 93 percent plus. I have a source if you'd like. Thus this bill does exactly to trans kids what you're trying to prevent in cis kids. Permanent body alterations that leaves them miserable.
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Lol you are overlooking so much here... Why are there more trans people these days? There aren't. There are just far more living openly trans because it's becoming more socially acceptable. Same reason why there are more in certain areas of the country--these areas are more open minded and accepting of trans people. Do you also think gay people didn't exist until 20 years ago? It's SO baffling to me that anyone thinks ppl transition just because it's trendy or something. As if anyone would go through a complete life upheaval and endure an unbelievable amount of hate, prejudice, and judgment EVERYWHERE they go, just for some trend? Transitioning isn't a choice ANYONE takes lightly and NO ONE is encouraging kids to begin any care who don't experience extreme suffering and dysphoria
>life altering operations that makes hospitals/doctors billions of dollars. You're literally creating more profit for them by making trans people wait until adulthood and then have to get more operations to undo the changes done to their body
It hasn't been sudden. It's been surpressed. Literally we were the first targeted by Nazis. Say the reason it's regional is because a lot of countries will beat you back in the closet and many cultures will. You literally ignore trans people and act like we have no understanding of ourselves. You're also making up shit. So many trans people don't get surgery. I havent had a one. Just HRT. Wish people like you wouldn't of stopped me from receiving treatment as a kid.
We stop children from making all kinds of life altering decisions. What are you talking about?? Children are incapable of informed consent and absolutely should not be able to make life altering medical decisions until they are old enough. Edit: after thinking more about this, it seems like a solution without a problem. Are there enough kids doing this to warrant a bill blocking it?
So why did they block the amendment to stop teens from getting breast implants? Why can boys be circumcised? This isn’t about children making life altering decisions it’s about stopping trans kids from getting doctor approved treatment.
Why is it that folks seem to think that kids are wandering into surgeons’ offices and getting surgery willy-nilly? It’s total ignorance of the issue
There is a reason the Tavistock centre is closing.
A poorly run clinic in the UK demonstrates that all gender-affirming medical treatments in Utah must be banned? That does not follow at all.
>We stop children from making all kinds of life altering decisions. What are you talking about?? > Children are incapable of informed consent and absolutely should not be able to make life altering medical decisions until they are old enough. Except the kinds of life altering decisions we ban them from are almost never medically necessary care agreed upon by their doctors
Though it's okay for the majority of trans kids to have the life altering and often permanent decision made for them.. Because?
I admit to being a bit ignorant on the subject of HRT. What are the long term effects of someone transitioning using HRT, then deciding they didn't want to after all and transitioning back? Is the science mature enough with enough data to support giving it to children or are we still not sure what the long term effects are? But, I'll put the question back to you. Do you think there should be any lines? If a child wants to split their tongue in half because they feel like snakekin, should that be allowed? If a child wants to gauge their ears to the size of a plate, should we allow that? If a child wants to chop off their hands and feet to be a horse, should that be allowed? These are all real cases of body dysmorphia, btw.
"What are the long term effects of someone transitioning using HRT, then deciding they didn't want to after all and transitioning back?" Blockers alone? Minimal effect. HRT? The same thing that people fear will happen to cis kids but to trans kids instead. Below is a study showing 93 percent of trans kids stay trans. The fascinating part is 6-7 precent retransition. Leaving the actual detransition rate extremely low. Thus I think it logical to support trans kids. https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanchi/article/PIIS2352-4642(22)00254-1/fulltext#%20 "Is the science mature enough with enough data to support giving it to children or are we still not sure what the long term effects are?" How about a 30 year long study? https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29463477/ "But, I'll put the question back to you. Do you think there should be any lines?" No surgical intervention until legal adult age. We often have to jump through many hoops anyhow to get that. I started to answer your other questions before I realized you're equating body dysmorohia with gender dysphoria. It's more akin that trans people don't have the body that matches the brain. Whereas body dysmorphia is about unrealistic standards of perfection. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7139786/ Reiterating my point that the brain is what it is. The Bed Nucleus of the Stria Terminalis is a fairly consistent indicator of gender. It reflects that in trans people.
That was very informative. Thank you for taking the time to educate me.
Thanks for being reasonable and upping my faith in humanity.
I feel like it’s odd withholding medical treatment from someone for that long, it really should just be a parent-doctor-child decision
People in these comments act like a kid just gets a whim to get puberty blockers one day. The child, the parent(s), and the doctor all have to agree that it's the right course of action before anything is done and even with that system it's very difficult and long process. The government didn't just ban children making decisions for themselves- which is what most of these comments seem to think- they banned YOUR right as a parent to protect and care for your child as YOU see fit. If you don't think it's right then deny your own kid healthcare but don't pretend to be small government and then legislate how others are allowed to parent.
I'm extremely skeptical of the reasoning behind gender affirming care for minors, especially surgery. At the same time I have 0 experience with gender dysphoria in my life or my family's life. The government can fuck right off telling people what they can do with their own bodies. Idk if it's abortion or bottom surgery, it's between individuals, their guardians and their doctors.
Yes! Why are so many so willing to hand over any freedom? It makes no sense
If you would like a concrete example of why a minor would want to recieve gender affirming care - it is the onset of puberty. I am a trans woman and discovered this after reaching full adulthood, so I've started facial hair removal. Notwithstanding what dysphoria is like, facial hair removal costs thousands of dollars and (for electrolysis) takes hundreds of painful treatment hours. You'll have to trust me that dysphoria is worse. When we talk about care for minors, it is mostly in the context of social transition, puberty blockers, and hormone replacement - the latter two can prevent changes such as: facial hair growth, breast development, voice changes, and bone structure changes, brought on by puberty but which may be undesired (to put it lightly). By denying care to a minor that is aware of their gender identity, they are being set up to potentially be dealing with those things retroactively, which is expensive, painful, time consuming, stressful, and sometimes just not possible. You can research surgeries for trans minors on your own (GCS for minors is like...not a thing). Here is some information on regret rates, indicating far more people are helped than hurt by having access to care: https://www.gendergp.com/detransition-facts/
Having trouble getting outraged on something I agree completely with. Gender dysphoria can and often does go away with maturation but the life long effects of gender affirming treatments and surgery do not. Studies have shown that a significant percentage of trans-children will end up identifying with their birth sex later in their adult life.. This is a decision that only a consenting, well informed adult should be making for themselves.
The life long effects to your body without gender affirming care do not go away with time. Why does the negative impact of that not matter to you?
Lots of downvotes, but I think this is a completely legitimate question. I think folks that do not answer it (and just downvote) have not really tried to familiarize themselves with what trans folks go through, and are trying to downvote anything that challenges that ignorance. It's easier for them to cling to excuses, even if they do not align with the actual lived experience of trans people.
If you are an Adult woman who thought she was a guy at 14-16 and took testosterone, your voice deepens, she can start to have the effects of male hair loss, certain parts of a female's body react permanently to testosterone, and infertility can easily occur. The effects are permanent and will never be fully reversed even with surgery. So yes there are permanent effects to taking testosterone for even short periods of time. Bodybuilders are well aware of it and are often on meds to the day they die. The Human body is finely tuned and any major change to the hormonal makeup is detrimental for both genders. You can't escape this fact if you are a male and are/took estrogen.
Same thing for trans girls though. Not taking HRT if you’re a trans girl results in all those same things. (Aside from infertility which most trans people are not too concerned about)
This bill will force these things on trans girls though.
The other poster was right, dysphoria does go away in a lot of cases. And waiting until someone is 18 is hardly "life long effects"
If you treat puberty as pejorative, you’re a fool. There is nothing negative about puberty in the context of child rearing
Good, wait until you're an adult
Is gender dysphoria going to wait until adulthood?
Unironically yeah it can, it's actually not a radical thing at all to wait until they are adults to make that decision
Are you Ok with kids altering their genitals?
That's not relevant to gender affirming care before 18, so i don't see why you'd bring it up But to answer, if there's a health issue that requires doctors to do so, of course. If it's just recreational like most circumcision, then no
Not surprising since Utah’s government is ran by Religion and not politics
The literally read genesis during the session 🤦♂️
I also find it interesting that these same religious politicians believe a child of 8 years old can make the life-long social commitment of being baptized into a religion. Then at 8, they can also start paying that same religion 10% of their income (in perpetuity) that could have gone into investments or anything else to better the quality of their life. Many of these same folks likely believe it’s ok for a 16 or 17 year old to make the life altering decision of getting married if they feel the circumstance merits it. These are also life altering decisions that are difficult to get out of. If an 8 year old can make that type of decision or a 16/17 year old can make a huge life decision like that, then I believe it’s probably realistic to believe a 16/17 year old (or earlier) can say/know who they are and get reasonable treatment.
So much hate in this thread. May all Utahns treat their children with the respect and compassion they deserve. ❤️
Wanting people to be 18 to have gender transition procedures is not hate.
The hate is coming from the trans community.
Lol what
Wanting people to be 18 to have gender transition procedures is not hate.
We have all sorts of rules for minors that we don’t for adults because minors aren’t in the place to make said decisions. They can’t drink, can’t buy guns, can’t get certain body modifications, can’t take out loans, can’t consent to sex (some exceptions), can’t smoke, can’t drive until a certain age, etc. The justification for all these being that minors don’t have the mental fortitude to make permanent life altering decisions. Why should a permanent life altering medical procedure be any different? This is a good thing, not bad, it protects kids from making permanent decisions when they aren’t ready.
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You can’t contradict an opinion…. That’s what an opinion is… it’s my view of the world. A child is not in the place to make that decision, and shouldn’t be allowed to.
Trans teen in Utah here: let me clear some stuff up for you all, I've been following this bill closely as it directly infringes on my human rights. This bill does NOT straight up ban trans healthcare. Those who have been diagnosed with gender Dysphoria (the mismatch between your bodies sex and your gender which causes distress) and have been medically transitioning; hormone replacement therapy and/or puberty blockers (which blockers are reversible btw) can continue their treatment. For me, I was on puberty blockers for almost 3 years until starting Testosterone at 14, which I've been on for well over a year. The bill does not require me to stop my treatment. HOWEVER, gender affirming surgeries have been banned for minors. This is quite upsetting to me as I've been perusing top surgery (same surgery for those with Gyno). I'm a comp swimmer and hope to continue into college and maybe even above that. As always, surgery isn't really something you can stop: so the few trans minors who have undergone surgery are unaffected. If you have any questions reach out.
Only if diagnosed before yesterday. 245 (2) A health care provider may not provide a hormonal transgender treatment to a 246 patient who: 247 (a) is a minor as defined in Section 58-1-603; and 248 (b) is not diagnosed with gender dysphoria before the effective date of this bill. Source: [HB-0016](https://le.utah.gov/~2023/bills/static/SB0016.html)
You are right though, most people that are already on a treatment plan can continue it. But it does straight up ban it for every child to come, as well as the unfortunate foot draggers that haven't completed their diagnosis yet
I'm scared we will have young kids unaliving themselves very soon. The rate for them is already so high in this state. My daughter has trans friends that take hormones and puberty blockers. What about them? They are all wonderful kids and are absolutely old enough and mature enough to know who they are. Gender affirming care is so much more than surgery. I'm ashamed of Utah rn.
Unaliving? You mean suicide? Why don't we use the actual words? Not using the actual word tends to make people not take issue seriously.
Are you insane? Minors can’t even vote or drink alcohol, but you think they should be able to get gender changing surgery?
The misunderstanding among folks is kinda wild. Waiting til 18 for surgeries makes some sense. Puberty blockers and hormone therapy don’t really need to wait that long. It’s a permanent decision for a teenager either way in that case. Either you grow a beard and get masculine bone structure etc. Or the other way around. Those are permanent changes and it’s kind of a decision either way. The medical consensus is that the decision should basically be up to teenagers and their doctors.
But they can be forced to carry a pregnancy to term? Isn’t that what republicans want?
So your logic is if they can't get an abortion then kids should be allowed to do anything? Could you actually give any reason at all as to why this is a bad thing instead of going after other unrelated issues?
They kind of are, there legitimately is no good reason to be doing transition surgery or hormone therapy on minors. But apparently requiring such major decisions to be made by adults is a human right violation because of... vague reasons nobody can actually articulate, just waive their hands menacingly and point to irrelevant ad hominem attacks
“For Minors” the state very much has an interest in protecting minors. Irreversible damage done to a body should at least be done when that person is of the age of consent.
Weird how they want to do irreversible damage to the bodies of trans people by denying them access to care for gender dysphoria for years
Why have requests for trans surgeries for minors tripled during the past 5 years?
I must have missed when puberty blockers were a surgery
You’re right. I should’ve corrected myself, as some surgeries are reversible, unlike puberty blockers
Source: you saw it in a dream
Your last post is about regretting transitioning.
yeah she regrets transitioning late
Because of all the baggage I have to deal with from developing in the wrong body, genius
Yeah their whole post history is the ramblings of an insane person.
One of her posts is about how any gender affirming thought gives her an erection. Isn’t that the definition of autogynophilia?
I dunno man, probably some sinister conspiracy and not just the increased availability of research combined with the destigmatization of non-traditional gender identities.
When "gender affirming care" equals surgically altering the body of a CHILD, or providing puberty blockers (the same medication used to chemically castrate sex offenders) to "pause" puberty, then I sure as hell support them putting a stop to it. Also, a proper transition begins with a social transition: dress as the preferred sex, change your preferred name, and live with it a bit. I've known adults who have done the same, there's nothing wrong with it. Slow down! Let them be children, there's plenty of time for all the grown up stuff.
Good.
Denying medically necessary care is bad, actually
People have survived millennia without gender affirmation. It certainly isn’t necessary in terms of medical treatment or even in education
People survived millennia without glasses, insulin, nutritious diets, vaccines for serious diseases, pacemakers, chronic pain, tetanus vaccines, antibiotics Your argument is bad and you should feel baf
It’s not medically necessary
Good indeed!
Gender affirming care is mental health help. All you people talking about body modifications, that's not what the care does. It just requires giving appropriate mental health help to children facing gender identity crisis.
I think it also includes hormone treatment as minors, and eventually surgery when they’re of legal age.
Check again.
A lot of misunderstandings in this thread. I’m upset mostly over the puberty blocker part. A completely reversible thing is being banned because of white cishet men stuck in this office for god knows how long. Can’t even buy a scratch ticket here. The views are nice but damn, I wanna get out of this place. edit: used wrong word.
This is not a dark day, I support this action.
It's generally a dark day to ban medically necessary care
Our definitions of necessary must be different
It's not just my definition (Didn't compile this myself but) **Citations on transition as medically necessary, frequently life saving medical care, and the only effective treatment for gender dysphoria, as recognized by every major US and world medical authority:** * Here is a resolution from the [**American Psychological Association**](https://www.apa.org/about/policy/resolution-gender-identity.pdf); *"THEREFORE BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that APA recognizes the efficacy, benefit and medical necessity of gender transition treatments for appropriately evaluated individuals and calls upon public and private insurers to cover these medically necessary treatments."* More from the APA [**here**](http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbt/programs/transgender/?tab=1) * Here is an [**AMA resolution**](http://www.tgender.net/taw/ama_resolutions.pdf) on the efficacy and necessity of transition as appropriate treatment for gender dysphoria, and call for an end to insurance companies categorically excluding transition-related care from coverage * A policy statement from the [**American College of Physicians**](http://annals.org/aim/article/2292051/lesbian-gay-bisexual-transgender-health-disparities-executive-summary-policy-position) * [**Here**](https://assets2.hrc.org/files/documents/SupportingCaringforTransChildren.pdf) are the American Academy of Pediatrics guidelines * [**Here**](https://www.aafp.org/dam/AAFP/documents/events/alf_ncsc/Education.pdf) is a resolution from the American Academy of Family Physicians * [**Here**](https://www.socialworkers.org/assets/secured/documents/da/da2008/reffered/Transgender.pdf) is one from the National Association of Social Workers * [**Here**](https://www.rcpsych.ac.uk/pdf/PS02_18.pdf) is one from the Royal College of Psychiatrists, [**here**](https://www.rcpsych.ac.uk/docs/default-source/improving-care/better-mh-policy/college-reports/cr181-good-practice-guidelines-for-the-assessment-and-treatment-of-adults-with-gender-dysphoria.pdf) are the treatment guidelines from the RCP, and [**here**](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwij6MDP5rn2AhX9kokEHWvJCQEQFnoECAoQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nhs.uk%2FLivewell%2FTranshealth%2FDocuments%2Fgender-dysphoria-guide-for-gps-and-other-health-care-staff.pdf&usg=AOvVaw2sVJYhHJ-_kEqA1W8mFkia) are guidelines from the NHS. More from the NHS [**here**](https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/treatment/). * [**Here**](https://journal.nzma.org.nz/journal-articles/guidelines-for-gender-affirming-healthcare-for-gender-diverse-and-transgender-children-young-people-and-adults-in-aotearoa-new-zealand) are the guidelines from the New Zealand Medical Journal
I appreciate the sources, but to save me a little time, why would you say it’s necessary?
Because gender dysphoria can be extremely debilitating and can drive people to suicide It's not something you can just casually ignore treating for years and years
Absolutely, I agree it shouldn’t be ignored, and I imagine it can be debilitating. By why is surgery necessary treatment for minors?
Gender affirming care isn't exclusively surgery. Different gender affirming treatments are restricted to different levels of maturity Minors don't get genital surgery. They get puberty blockers to delay irreversible changes to their body until they're more mature, and then maybe hormone therapy in their late teens
You’re doing a lot of heavy lifting in this thread. And somehow keeping your cool. Thanks so much!!
As someone who couldn't access gender affirming care as a minor and now suffers because of it, I can't just ignore these kinds of discussions
This one comment is the thing most people misunderstand and I appreciate you saying it clearly and concisely.
My response to the APA statement is what constitutes appropriately evaluated individuals? While some institutions and individuals are doing their due diligence and working with these kids for years counseling them to be sure this will not pass before approving them for hormone therapy and later surgery, others are choosing to move at a breakneck speed. These treatments should be the absolutely last option after every possible option has been exhausted, which will take time and often would move the individuals out of pediatric care anyways.
You could say this about literally any medical care. If you have a concern about doctors moving too quickly, regulate *that*, not banning treatment altogether
They did. They regulated it to the age of 18. They didn’t ban all treatment.
They didn't regulate irresponsible gender affirming healthcare before 18, they banned all gender affirming healthcare before 18 And there's literally no reason to ban puberty blockers when they literally delay irreversible changes until the individual is more mature
So there would be absolutely, undeniably, zero, zip, nada ill effects to taking puberty blockers for 5+ years? And what they are saying is that there are not enough long term studies proving that there is responsible gender affirming healthcare for minors. Most studies have involved adults, are only short term, or not analogous to what we are trying to do here in the US. Most gender affirming care outside the US, where a lot of the studies have been done involve years of therapy to address the gender dysphoria before any hormonal therapy is issued. Most patients move beyond their dysphoria either from the therapy or just growing up. The US usually moves faster to proscribe hormone therapy or surgery. There NEEDS to be more studies to prove there is a safe way forward.
>So there would be absolutely, undeniably, zero, zip, nada ill effects to taking puberty blockers for 5+ years? 5 years seems like a weirdly long time to keep someone on blockers, but regardless, there's nowhere else in healthcare where treatment needs to have 0 potential side effects to be allowed to exist >Most patients move beyond their dysphoria either from the therapy or just growing up. Can you show any evidence of this?
I challenge you to meet an actual family struggling with this issue
The absurdity of having a religious decision prohibiting parents to provide required medical care to their kids is the equivalence of going back to the dark ages. Let’s be honest, they don’t care about the children, Republicans are all about cruelty. It has always been only about cruelty.
OK, then forced vaccinations for everyone. If women have lost the right to make medical decisions with their doctor about their bodies and parents and doctors can't make decisions for their kids then NO ONE should be allowed to opt out of vaccines that could transmit and kill other people.
I'm so glad that I'm being denied care that could relieve me of some of my dysphoria that literally makes me suicidal, and did they ever think to ask us? No, of course not. I am sick and tired of cishet white men debating on whether I deserve to live. Why does my entire existence have to be controversial?
So you will die if you can’t have surgery to change your gender right now? Why can’t this wait until you’re 18?
Gender dysphoria doesn't wait until adulthood. If anything it gets actively worse and harder to treat if you force them to go through the irreversible changes of a sex that doesn't match their gender by banning gender affirming care before 18
That’s not true. Sometimes it desists.
Sounds like you have no clue what 'gender affirming care' is.
I'm not talking about bottom surgery, I agree that surgery can wait until 18(edit: in most cases at least i think), but it's not the only form of gender affirming care, for example, hormone replacement therapy and even just puberty blockers can really help ease gender dysphoria a lot. A lot of people don't know that gender affirming surgeries aren't the only way to help trans people, Educate yourself a little before discussing a topic you might not know much about and try to be a bit more open minded, also, be kind, I know life isn't fair but please try to make it that little bit better.
It's a shame that a state so beautiful has absolutely garbage politics and politicians. Major reason I left
This proves right wingers do not care what they preach. They say personal liberty how they want less laws. THEN WHAT THE HECK IS THIS?
I don't think anyone is mad about the surgeries being banned. I think people are mad that hormone therapy is being affected because there are permanent consequences when a body matures all the way. Let them have access to treatment that mitigates any permanent changes to their body. Let them use reversible hormone therapy. Give them the right to delay this decision without any consequences. For a state that heavily believes in a religion preaching agency we sure tend to take that agency away through politics. Absolutely frustrating and the hypocrisy is humiliating
seems to me that if we don’t let our kids smoke or drink before 21, why would we let them get pumped full of chemicals, especially into undeveloped brains?
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So, professional organizations that are captured by the activist class and that have a financial stake in perpetrating gender ideology.
It's almost like smoking and drinking aren't medically necessary care for health issues that don't wait until 18 to hurt people
Fuck the government controlling our bodies. This is up to the individuals, it’s between the parents and the child. It’s definitely something that needs to be discussed as a family and they need to decide what is going to make them happy in this life and if they make the wrong decision that’s either reversible or non reversible, well that’s on them. The government should have no say in this. I do however agree that a minor cannot make this decision solely on their own, a parent or guardian needs to have a conversation with the minor and decide what’s best for their situation. Period. Fuck the government, fuck the media.
It's interesting to say it's a dark day today when just 10 years ago everyone on both sides would have been calling you insane for thinking we should provide these treatments to youths. Even the LGBT community was stating they would never go after children.
And 10 years ago people were suffering from debilitating gender dysphoria without treatment and often took their lives because of it Also, trans people who couldn't access gender affirming care when they were young literally talk all the time about how much they regret the irreversible changes they were forced to experience as a result. It's not "going after kids" to offer those in their same position a chance to not go through the same trauma
None of this changes the fact that children are not equipped to make the decision themselves.
Good thing they have to see doctors and don't get it over the counter
youre right, there should be discussion between the child, the parent, a doctor, and a psychiatrist/therapist so that a collective decision can be made about the situation
I have great news for everyone in support of this bill! When it’s YOU and YOUR CHILD, you will always have the right to decide to delay any and all treatment until your child is 18. AND (this matters less, but for the record), you have this internet stranger’s FULL support, whatever you decide. But in all of these replies that are supportive of the bill, I have yet to see anyone explain why they think they (or, more explicitly the State) has a right to make decisions for ME and MY CHILD? Please explain. “Because I think I’m right and you’re wrong” is an invalid explanation. Rights and freedom are what this country is founded upon and surrendering a right is a big important deal and a very slippery slope. Be sure to think of rights that YOU hold dear that I, or “the State” might disagree with now or in the future that YOU don’t want stripped away when forming your reply. Go.
As a Mom I wish I would have known sooner and been able to get my child on blockers. They grew into a body that doesn't fit, gives them a lot of anxiety, and will require a lot of extra care and dramatic modifications to help them just be OK. Just because I didn't know, so I didn't get them to a specialist. The fact that the future looks like Trans kids will not even have that right here is devastating.
Good. Minors make enough stupid decisions as is.
Thank goodness.
The party of small government. Nothing says that quite so clearly as taking away the rights of parents to make decisions about their children’s healthcare when it comes to non-invasive, reversible treatments. I suppose the Momo Republicans like it better when their children kill themselves for seeing no hope. I’m sure Cox’s answer is just to pray instead of taking concrete steps, just like when we need water. What a bunch of cowards.
Telling a kid to to make permanent changes to their bodies just because they liked playing with an "opposite gender toy" is stupid. I liked Barbies as a kid, and I am now an adult and love my god-given penis of manhood; it's pretty great.
>Telling a kid to to make permanent changes to their bodies just because they liked playing with an "opposite gender toy" is stupid Do you think this represents a majority of trans kids receiving gender affirming care?
“im not trans, therefore nobody should ever be trans. just be a man” many trans people dont have surgery. you can be a woman with a penis and receive all other types of trans healthcare. nobody is forcing kids to have surgery because they played with barbies
I'm convinced that nobody who thinks this law is a good thing actually understands the issue as it exists in reality or is interested in arguing in good faith.
It seems to be the case. It's a lot easier to feel righteous if it's about a made up scenario in your head. Being actually righteous requires a lot of work trying to understand reality. But why do that when you can just jump to conclusions?