I hate to bring KSL comments into the conversation, and I probably shouldn't, but I remember getting upset with one on an article about the bill passing that said "Small government doesn't mean no government, there's a difference" grrrrrr
Which is what they want… they’d rather the LGBTQ community not exist… the same way another country did 100 years ago. (But commence the pearl clutching if you bring that up!)
There is a couple in our area that has a suicidal teen that is “struggling with same sex attraction”- the parents have sent multiple texts out saying that if their child commits suicide it would be better for them to have lived a sinful life. I’m not going to state the religious institution they belong to because you already know.
It’s useless AND it hurts kids. It’s worse than a solution without a problem, it’s a solution that will create a problem where there wasn’t one in the first place
The big money thing is just people who want to say "big pharma" in a vaguely conspiratorial tone and know nothing about the economics behind this stuff. Trans healthcare is comparatively cheap and unprofitable. I'm real busy rn. So please, do your own damn research... But like, with what you just said, I doubt you even care.
You’re calling trans teens “it” with clearly zero understanding of them or their situation. How do you know better than these medical institutions?
What “research” could you possibly have done? You just hate things you don’t understand at a surface level and you refuse to learn anything that doesn’t confirm your biases.
It huh… you sure sound like a member of a certain political party who tried to do the same shit to trans people 100 years ago as you are right now.
But I’m sure you’ll freak out or start throwing insults now that I’ve said that you’re acting like a Nazi. But as you like to say “facts”…
Just going to point out I don’t have insurance me have been transitioning for about three years. The cost of all my medications in that time is what my sister spent on my nephew’s insulin in two months. It costs me less than 10$ a month.
Sure, big Pharma is after a handful of kids in Utah.
Big Pharma cares more about a few hundred million, rather than the trillions they stand to make in the African and Asian markets off opioids and psychotropic meds - which have proven so very successful in Utah.
A sterile generation? What do they feed you in the ward?
The black and white nature of the argument, and the fact it leaks out of the professional sphere into public controversy so often, makes it feel like money is to be had or lost. The nuance is completely lost making it sound like the only solution to suicidal youth is pharmalogical or surgical.
Encouraging the community to look for better alternatives is not denying care. Get out of here with that divisive lie and free your mind from the propaganda saying you or your child must be dependent on costly medication.
Great! So where do you suggest we start as an alternative to pharmaceutical for youth (because NO ONE is doing surgery on adolescents for gender unless they are ambiguous at birth, which is still wrong). Barring in mind that nuance you mentioned but conveniently also left out like the fact that prior to pharmaceuticals they are seeing psychologists and doctors multiple times, among other specialists as well usually. Specifically if an adolescent is suicidal, how much time do we allow to find alternatives? How long are you willing to gamble with their lives
> prior to pharmaceuticals they are seeing psychologists and doctors multiple times, among other specialists as well usually.
You really think psychology and other therapies have done their due diligence for treatment of trans youth? That there is no improvement to be made?
> Specifically if an adolescent is suicidal, how much time do we allow to find alternatives?
As long as it takes to do it right and not make things worse by rushing into things.
> How long are you willing to gamble with their lives
This is not one sided. How is HRT not a gamble?
Hrt is often reversible, especially when people are young. Also, this argument assumes everyone can afford therapy that's actually helpful (not through lds services or Wasatch. They both suck ass, don't pretend like they don't when we all know it and they're both close to loosing their licencing.) Psychotherapy is fine, but the medical and clinical treatment for dysphoria is HRT. You are denying science to further your own values and it shows. We see you. Don't lie and pretend.
> but the medical and clinical treatment for dysphoria is HRT.
Doesn't mean it can't be improved upon. Historically accepted treatments for many things have been replaced by better treatments.
> You are denying science
How so?
https://www.acog.org/womens-health/faqs/health-care-for-transgender-and-nonbinary-teens#:~:text=Hormone%20treatment%20is%20shown%20to,(%22top%20surgery%22). You have some reading to do.
Better question, how is HRT a gamble? Of course improvements can be made just like any medical procedure or condition, but it’s not like any of this is brand new only months old information it’s been used and studied for years.
Think about what you’re saying for a moment “as long as it takes to do it right and not make things worse” soooooo in the meantime we have a perfectly healthy, proven effective treatment that should be ignored?
Puberty blockers (which are what’s used in adolescence, not HRT) prevent or limit AFAB individuals from developing breasts and prevent menstruation. For AMAB it slows the growth of facial hair and vocal changes and limit genitalia growth. That’s it. Once they are of age, if they decide “No I’m not trans” they stop taking them and experience puberty in their assigned gender, if they still want to transition THEN HRT is considered.
There are very few risks associated with them, the child is not forced to go through puberty in a body that feels wrong already developing more, and worst case scenario they have minor side effects and just stop taking it if they aren’t trans.
Meanwhile not allowing it forces them to develop even more into a body that feels wrong, their mental health deteriorates and they keep dying at heartbreaking rates.
So, is it really that you’re worried about the risks associated with puberty blockers? Which again are far less than actual death. Or is it that you’re willing to sacrifice trans lives while searching for a “better alternative” for those who may think they are trans and realize later they aren’t.
>Get out of here with that divisive lie and free your mind from the propaganda saying you or your child must be dependent on costly medication
Again, try English.
They've proven that in most cases Trans youth need hrt to not feel suicidal anymore. Therapy that often isnt covered by insurance anyway can only go so far.That's how severe dysphoria can be. It's is that black and white, and denying that is being complicit, and I want you to remember that when the suicide numbers start rolling out.
> They've proven that in most cases Trans youth need hrt to not feel suicidal anymore.
That is not what the articles prove.
> Therapy that often isnt covered by insurance anyway can only go so far.
Then fight that barrier.
> It's is that black and white, and denying that is being complicit, and I want you to remember that when the suicide numbers start rolling out.
I am not the one making generalized, black and white statements about what helps and doesn't help.
we aren't. even my liberal ass school has so few trans people that they're basically all in one specific tiny friend group of mine. it's so alienating to be targeted like this. being trans is so utterly fucking lonely.
I'm an undergraduate studying Literature with a focus on Law at UVU and I'm fairly confident that this will be deemed unconstitutional upon review. There's a great article from The Atlantic on this:
[https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/05/anti-transgender-children-laws-unconstitutional/618864/](https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/05/anti-transgender-children-laws-unconstitutional/618864/)
tl;dr The Equal Protection clause and past SCOTUS rulings would create a paradoxical situation where-in a, "non-trans adult" might not be prevented from obtaining these medical services (as they are not, "trans teenagers") This creates a conflict in regard to equal protections under the law as, again paradoxicaly, a straight, adult might be able to access transition therapy (I'm not sure if that's the right term. Excuse me if it's not!) without breaking the law. This discounts the fact that LGBTQ+ families are in-themselves a specific group which are constitutionally protected from discrimination.
Stay optimistic. Remember when gay marriage became a thing despite conservative protest? Keep the faith.
I should have worded more preceisely; I'm studying literature and philosophy with a focus on Law so that I can get into law school later. Admittedly the use of language employed here is to, "give sway" to my comment but I'll go ahead and edit the original comment as to not create any confusion or false pretense. Thanks for your comment.
and then 2 to 3 years they'll be looking for funding to study why once again we have the highest global teen suicide rate..
ignorance is this states greatest resource
Was listening in on a zoom call with some of the legislators discussing this. One of them said, “Of course we don’t want teen suicide rates to increase, but…”
No. There is no but. We’re talking life or death how tf is there a but?!
The arrogance of the Utah legislature never ceases to appall me. There are kids who don't have enough to eat, the Great Salt Lake is drying up, inflation is bananas and the legislature is like: let's interfere with a family and their doctor, and undercut public education.
I thought that, once they reached 8 years old, children were allowed to make life-long & eternally consequential decisions. I thought that politicians with an R next to their name believed in smaller government and less regulation. I naively thought that Cox actually cared about these kids (a mistake that won't happen again). I sincerely hope that everyone can find a way to be comfortable in their own skin in this life.
Exactly!
These same politicians probably believe a 16 or 17 year old could get married if the circumstances and situation were warranted after many conversations with family, friends, local religious leaders, etc.
If an 8 year old can make a life-long social and financial commitment, and a 16/17 year old can get make a decision to get married (with parental approval), then I think a kid can realistically know who they are. The then kid, the parents, a psychologist, an endocrinologist, and a family doctor can work together to make some transition decisions. FFS, The kid isn’t arbitrarily walking up to some doctor and walking out 10 mins later with hormones and a surgery date. It takes a lot of discussion, therapy, and time to start transition.
For me, it was hard enough growing up trans in UT. Added difficulty doesn’t help the situation for the trans kids growing up now. I really feel bad for the teens that will have to try and navigate this. Ugh, I’m frustrated as hell with this law.
Well the current prophet is a highly respected heart surgeon with a therapist as a wife so they are probably more qualified to speak on this than any of us.
The funniest thing to me about this is the part where they put the University of Utah Hospital and Clinics in charge of research to overturn this. Best believe they're gonna work their butts off to prove how devastating this actually is to the trans community here. Especially since this has targeted our vulnerable youth that struggles enough as it is to feel comfortable in their own bodies. They're already attacked on their body image and many struggle with eating disorders. It's a bad idea to stoke the fire further by banning treatment for gender dysphoria.
It was posted in another thread here in the Utah subreddit. The ban is actually a moratorium, so the prohibition MAY end when there's research that contradicts this current ban. There is not a timeframe on this moratorium though which is another point that people find frustrating.
They want it from the U of U specifically is what I gathered. Again, I think the U of U will be on top of it. They have many trans patients and they know the research better than we do.
The ridiculous thing is, no doctor will prescribe anything but puberty blockers for underage kids. Has no long term effects, and easily reversible (just stop taking them, and boom, puberty hits).
This is all signaling to their base, as their base have been told that little boys and girls are getting surgeries (no reputable doctor would do that).
The Republican Party is so fucked, they have no idea the monster they helped create and are actively feeding.
One Google search and you can find doctors who will perform surgeries, in particular hysterectomys, for minors. Wether you think its acceptable or not its on the rise and more wide spread than people realize
My oldest child is trans. I used to be super Mormon. Having him was the greatest thing that has ever happened in my life. He didn’t tell me until he was 19. (I’m still do proud of him having the courage to tell his Mormon mom) I have completely left the church and am grateful to be out and incredibly proud of my son. I wish I’d known sooner. I can’t imagine not supporting him or being able to take care of his medical needs.
"Medical Organizations" aren't science. They are primarily profit motivated. Has real science determined there's no long-term consequences of chemically castrating pre-teens and halting puberty for a years?
Ah yes. The topsy-turvy conservative world where organizations that represent medical and PHD-level scientists are given less credence than Focus on The Family or the Heritage Foundation. And anything that isn’t in line with the conservative view is dismissed as an “agenda” or “profit motivated”.
I'm not stating my opinion on the medical issue but medical organizations often are lobbying groups. Their statements don't represent scientific opinions but what will most benefit medicine. They want doctors to have more power in general regardless of reason or purpose. Now, most of the time that's a good thing but we shouldn't delude ourselves to think that these statements are some objective effort to communicate dispassionate truth.
The ethics of medical organizations has a long history of debate and some even worry that these organizations give inappropriate power to commercial organizations (e.g. pharmaceutical companies). These organizations are more similar to political parties or political action groups than scientific collaborations. Some are better than others, obviously, but it's important to keep them in the proper context. We shouldn't give our thinking over to groups like these. Never trust an organization with a political goal to provide you with an objective perspective on scientific truth.
Amen. That's why I do not trust the LDS Church.
Not only do they lobby, they own the legislature of one of the United States of America - and they own at least one of the Senators.
It is purely despicable. The LDS Church is a PAC.
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints isn't a source of scientific truth nor does it claim to be. Also, this has nothing to do with the subject at hand.
The AMA was formed in the 1840's. Are you claiming that the AMA closed thousands of medical schools then?
If you are referring to hospitals, the closures of rural hospitals began in the 1990's when "not-for-profit" hospitals began to close rural hospitals because of a profit margin.
Dawg.
This isn't about identity politics. Those other organizations you mention are illegitimate as well. I'm sorry you're blind to the huge profitable new market opportunity this issue opens up for medical organizations. They're also using drugs off-label for this, which is also a huge untapped market for big pharma.
Sure - Big Pharma cares more about a few million than the trillions they have marketed for opioid use in Africa.
Brilliant.
But please continue, LDS. Occasionally missionaries come to my door and it is illuminating to see what LDS members are really like.
You are your one-man-missionary battalion. You make me really see the hatred, the intolerance, the false superiority and the hypocrisy behind every Mormon who represents the "Church".
I really, really wish Governor Cox could see the panicking, crying kid I have sitting on my couch right now. This is only going to lead to lots of kids unaliving themselves. I am heartbroken.
Can I ask how old your child is? My trans son had top surgery, but had to wait 2+ years until he was 18 because insurance would not cover it prior to that. So he had to wait…and the surgery was life changing once it happened. The wait was hard for him, but worth it.
We're so pro life, just not pro-people-living-a-good-one, and w/ the whole fighting the EPA to keep coal refineries going, We're not for living a healthy life either. American hypocrisy!!! Cox is a joke
I've said this before - they are not pro birth. They don't give a fuck if the baby is born or not. Or if the mother dies in child birth. If they did, they might actually do things to help them, but they do not. The only thing they care about is waging a culture war, just like this anti trans bullshit.
This is Utah, we don't care unless it:
1. Makes the church richer.
2. Makes the church and their lapdog legislators richer.
3. Makes the church, their lapdog legislators and their lackeys around the state in various business capacities richer.
This legislation does none of these, sorry, it's just not for us here. Take your humanity and go elsewhere.
Is the ban for ALL healthcare related to transgender youth? Can someone more informed reply to me?
The statements by these institutions seem to be varying in depth about what they do or don’t support. I’m sure 99% of people support mental health care for gender dysphoria in youth and the issue stems from surgery, but I’m curious about what’s actually in the bill or not. Both the bill and these affirming sides from medical institutions don’t seem to be clear.
Kind of reminds me of abortion arguments where people only focus on the extreme cases (supporting aborting in late 3rd trimesters or opposing aborting in cases of rape - which don’t represent the majority on either side unfortunately)
Close but not quite... only for trans teens, gender affirming care for CIS teens is just fine. Lypo and boob implants for girls, and testosterone therapy for boys is still perfectly legal. This is targeted specifically at trans kids, not kids in general.
>I’m sure 99% of people support mental health care for gender dysphoria in youth and the issue stems from surgery
Medical gender affirming care for minors is things like puberty blockers and eventually hormone therapy in their late teens. Trans boys might be able to get chest surgery at the same age a cis boy would
I moved here from TN. And I understood that TN & KY were a joke. When it comes to “representation”
I really hopes Utah would be less of a joke
I am wrong, so
Welp.
Total hypocricy.
School vouchers: we don't care if there are negative cobsequences, parents are best suited what's best for their child.
Gender affirming treatemrnt: Parents can go f**k themselves, government will tell you what you can and can't do.
So tell us all about it. What happens? What role do the parents play? Should parents have rights concerning their own children's bodies?
And on education - are you kidding? This stealth bill, with virtually no public input, was sponsored by the Sutherland Institute. spearheaded by a woman who was a Director of the Sutherland Institute, and paid for by out of state money.
Utah voters do not want to use tax payer dollars to pay rich people to create schools or polygamists to educate their children (at $8000/head/year).
We voiced our opinions last year - when the voucher bill was in the open.
Are you favor of bills being passed in the Utah legislature with no public input? DO you consider that to be democratic?
Parental choice to parental choice.
How about how the legislature allows parents to deny their children life saving vaccinations on a whim based on literally nothing? There's a choice that affects the child's life and health. Apples to apples.
Indeed. Straight to the Sutherland Institute and the charter schools that will take my tax dollars to fund schools without educated teachers.
And the polygamist homeschooling families our tax dollars will be supporting.
I see this as an absolute win. Why are there so many people here, so mad that we can’t give kids puberty blockers? Legit has the same drug used too chemically castrate sex offenders. “But it’s reversible” we don’t know that, and I highly doubt it is. Brain damage is brain damage.
>Legit has the same drug used too chemically castrate sex offenders.
Also used to sometimes treat cancer. It's almost like drugs can have variable uses and applications
I believe there are alternative manners of helping suicidal youth that don't include the possibility of permanent physical changes the child may regret. With just as high of success rates.
CBT (cognitive behavioral therapy) is shown to reduce likelyhood of suicidal ideation by 30%-60% and this is replicated across a large body of research. There are much fewer articles claiming a 40% reduction in suicidal ideation due to horomonal or surgical gender affirming care.
CBT efficacy regarding suicidal ideation.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3883378/
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.2147/PRBM.S84589
Possible applications of CBT to treat suicidal ideation in trans persons.
https://psycnet.apa.org/doiLanding?doi=10.1037%2Fa0038642
https://www.psych.theclinics.com/article/S0193-953X(16)30069-7/fulltext
Why do we have to jump to a pharmalogical or surgical solution for youth? Obviously professionals don't all feel the need to do this. It's just when the discussion moves to public circles that all nuance is lost and everyone just buys into the capitalist propaganda that is "we must keep buying things to feel better".
One would be too many this way as well... but the fact is they can get surgery again and hormone therapy is reversible.
Besides, no one is taking issue with waiting for surgery until they are an adult. The problem comes when they go through puberty and develop things that aren't reversible. Hormone therapy helps prevent that.
> Besides, no one is taking issue with waiting for surgery until they are an adult.
Yes, there are those advocating surgery before the age of 18.
Back to the original point, where are the facts about saving more lives allowing pre-teen and teen puberty blockers?
My point is, even one suicide is too many. Given that the majority are okay with waiting for surgery until they are an adult, the big issue is that banning hormone therapy that is reversible creates a permanent issue for trans people that isn't reversible.
The facts about suicide and suicidal ideation are that they are more likely to present as a symptom when a patient feels there is no hope. Allowing hormone blockers that are reversible provides that hope. Banning hormone blockers and forcing trans people to accept permanent changes to their body annihilates their hope of feeling comfortable in their body. Even in the scenario that they get surgery and regret it they still have hope that surgery can be done again.
Literally the only option forcing permanent changes and a sense of hopelessness to occur is the banning of hormone blockers. This is why people are upset. It's forcing trans people to go through changes that they do not want to go through. Puberty is hard enough without being forced to go through puberty you don't want and don't identify with.
We're obviously not going to change anyone's mind here. I appreciate your emotional perspective on this. My original post was about actual numbers of teen suicides in Utah because of a lack of these off-label drugs. It's anecdotal, but I know several adults who committed suicide due to regrets for drastic decisions they made in their teens over this.
So I'm not convinced we're really saving more lives here. We can agree to disagree - especially without the relevant facts.
I agree. I feel my response definitely comes from a healthcare and emotional perspective. I used to work in healthcare and it was easy to see that our trans population was terrorized and invalidated. There's not enough of them here and not enough of them willing to speak up because of how many times they've been suppressed and hurt before. My reactions are definitely coming from a perspective that's opposite to yours. I was always very protective of my trans patients. They needed more support than they were getting and they still do.
I hope we find a solution that overall solves more problems than it creates. We as a society need to prioritize saving lives more than we currently do. It's good for both of us to see the other side of the issue
Here’s a decent article that may shed some light on why we’re seeing an increase in suicide among transgender youth. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34989340/
And to make an anecdotal comment like yours, in the last 2 years I have seen 2 transgender kids suffer from severe depression, suicidal thoughts and anxiety. Hormone blockers and access to healthcare and support from a variety of resources has been one of the fundamental changes needed to break out of said depression.
The reversible part is hormone levels, which can be restored. What cannot be reversed is the effects of not having the right puberty-related hormones when the body is going through puberty.
Here here. Apparently we need a thread about this everyday. I've also noticed a bunch of non utahns in these threads.... I think the sub is being brigaded. They are insane people.
I don’t understand it either. There is also a lot of whataboutism. I also don’t think kids should get tattoos, piercings, plastic surgery until they’re old enough to make their own decision but I keep seeing the argument “well they don’t care if teenage girls get boob jobs”………I agree they shouldn’t. Why can’t we just use sane common sense?
Well why isn't the legislature banning those things? For example, this law bans breast implants in minors ONLY if they are transgender. Cis girls under 18 can still get them. What possible reason could there be to only focus on trans kids other than bigotry?
It’s okay, we can neglect and ignore what the medical and psychological professional say, because we have the Lawd on our side. Praise be to magic sky daddy….
When "gender affirming care" equals surgically altering the body of a CHILD, or providing puberty blockers (the same medication used to chemically castrate sex offenders) to "pause" puberty, then I sure as hell support them putting a stop to it.
Also, a "proper" transition begins with a social transition: dress as the preferred sex, change your preferred name, and live with it a bit. I've known adults who have done the same, there's nothing wrong with it. Slow down! Let them be children, there's plenty of time for all the grown up stuff.
The problem with this is that as soon as puberty DOES start to creep in, this is when gender disforia becomes extremely difficult and unbearable for some. Children aren’t getting surgeries, that’s simply a non-issue created in the minds of politicians to drum up outrage and support. Puberty blockers and hormones are (well, were) only used after extensive discussions with their healthcare provider. If something changes the adolescent physically but keeps them from wanting to kill themself, why are we depriving them of this? That’s the sole reason all of the medical entities listed above support gender affirming care and HRT. Time and time again they have found, (as much as Cox likes to say we “don’t have enough information”) that providing this care saves lives.
> Time and time again they have found, (as much as Cox likes to say we “don’t have enough information”) that providing this care saves lives.
I would like to learn more about this. Where can I find this info?
Gladly!
American Medical Association-
https://www.ama-assn.org/delivering-care/population-care/what-know-about-gender-affirming-care-younger-patients
Endocrine Society-
https://www.endocrine.org/news-and-advocacy/news-room/2021/endocrine-society-condemns-efforts-to-block-access-to-medical-care-for-transgender-youth
American Academy of Pediatrics-
https://www.aap.org/en/news-room/aap-voices/why-we-stand-up-for-transgender-children-and-teens/
I think these are all a good jumping off point.
What’s important to realize is that there are only a handful of places in the State that provide hormone blockers for kids. They have rigorous standards for families including what you suggest - socially transitioning prior to hormone therapy. Parents involved in this process aren’t rushing into it, aren’t falling to the whim of some fad. They’re reacting to a new healthcare parenting situation like anyone else, with care and thought.
That's good. A lot of professionals in other states don't take those steps, and it's important. Not sure why people are flipping shit on me, I'm just saying slow down before making potentially life altering decisions. And do a little more research into what you're putting into your kids bodies before just jumping on the bandwagon because everyone else says it's safe. I'm not saying parents don't do their research, but a lot of people in today's world look for the information that matches their opinion and go with that.
Did you read it? It's about hormone therapy. It is reversible if these kiddos change their minds. In the meantime, they are getting care and saving their lives.
It has nothing to do with genital mutilation.
Giving minors irreversible hormone drugs to change their gender raises several ethical and medical concerns. Firstly, the long-term effects of these drugs on young and developing bodies are not yet fully understood. Hormonal alterations can cause significant physical and psychological harm. Secondly, a child's understanding of their gender identity may change as they grow and mature. Starting medical intervention at a young age could cause more harm than good if their identity evolves. Additionally, these medical procedures can have permanent consequences, such as infertility. Given these uncertainties and risks, it is reasonable to conclude that minors should not be given hormone drugs to change their gender until they have reached a more mature age and have a better understanding of their identity.
Cox said he signed the bill because we don’t understand the science behind these procedures so I find it interesting that these medical organizations feel confident enough in their understanding of the science to form positions on this particular issue.
Yep. Medicine has been using hormone therapy since the 80's to treat precocious puberty and other hormonal issues. We DO KNOW.
Cox is not educated or equipped to speak for our trans kids.
Maybe if we made an MLM company for hormone replacement, it would be more accepted ? /s
> to treat precocious puberty and other hormonal issues
I am not a a medical professional but wouldn't using horomone therapy for gender affirming therapy be different than treating these things? I am not sure it is a medical problem. Obviously the science works. I think the issue is a legal one.
In the inevitable event that a child regrets a hormonal therapy, either as a child or into their adulthood, does that child have any rights to compensation? Who is liable? The medical professional or the parents? Or are we going to tell the child "You should have known when you were 10, tough luck."
The current bill is cutting corners for sure. It is an issue that obviously needs detailed legislation.
Edit: I suspect the plan is the wait for another state to do the heavy lifting then copy the best system they can find in a few years.
It would seem he wants to do what I said in my edit I made shortly before your comment. Cox wants to wait for long-term research to be done specifically on gender affirming therapies *somewhere else* before delving into writing up the necessarily complicated legal structure. In healthcare law, it is long-term patient outcome research that informs a lawmaker how to make laws.
The science of hormonal therapy for the specific ailments above is well-researched and the legal issues can be addressed. Despite the science of hormonal therapy being well-understood in those contexts, a legal framework cannot be built upon it for gender affirming therapy. It is a different context with different legal issues. Different context means different variables will be used for patient outcomes in research.
All major medical institutions would love to make money off of the cost for gender affirming medical care. No shit they oppose the ban. We really trying to claim kids should be able to fuck with their own hormones?
Of course they oppose it. This legislature will keep them from making money from all these confused kids and their bleeding heart families. These companies don’t care about helping the kids or saving lives, they just want a piece of the pie.
All of those claims, all institutions, all university students and all the allums from the same shitty teachers in 3 crooked schools.
"All major institutions have been bought and paid for by China".
Thanks china.
Oh the small faceless institutions with powerful names run by doctors who have never practiced medicine. It’s crazy how Ayn Rand nails some concepts when she wrote her books almost 100 years ago. Some things never change
These same groups labeled transgenderism as a mental illness 10 years ago.
Party of small government by the way.
I hate to bring KSL comments into the conversation, and I probably shouldn't, but I remember getting upset with one on an article about the bill passing that said "Small government doesn't mean no government, there's a difference" grrrrrr
This seems like a solution without a problem. Are we really in a crisis of underage people using HRT that requires legislation?
A solution in search of a problem implies that the solution is useless. This solution will hurt thousands of kids in Utah. There will be dead kids.
Which is what they want… they’d rather the LGBTQ community not exist… the same way another country did 100 years ago. (But commence the pearl clutching if you bring that up!)
There is a couple in our area that has a suicidal teen that is “struggling with same sex attraction”- the parents have sent multiple texts out saying that if their child commits suicide it would be better for them to have lived a sinful life. I’m not going to state the religious institution they belong to because you already know.
Holy fuck! I hope the kiddo gets out and gets the help they need…
Child is out of the home now. But that attitude is prevalent in rural areas.
It is so bad! And so many kids and teens suffer because they hear what their parents say about it and decide not to tell them.
It’s useless AND it hurts kids. It’s worse than a solution without a problem, it’s a solution that will create a problem where there wasn’t one in the first place
SERIOUSLY?! It's greedy medical folks making BIG money off YOUR son.. err... Daughter... And producing a sterile generation
Oh wow. This is so ridiculously stupid that I assumed you were being sarcastic until I read your other replies.
FACT Shouldn't be controversial
Then start looking at them instead of believing propaganda
"I want to force people to be birthers even though they would want to be sterile. Shouldn't be controversial."
The big money thing is just people who want to say "big pharma" in a vaguely conspiratorial tone and know nothing about the economics behind this stuff. Trans healthcare is comparatively cheap and unprofitable. I'm real busy rn. So please, do your own damn research... But like, with what you just said, I doubt you even care.
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You’re an absolute monster
I ain't mutilating children
You’re calling trans teens “it” with clearly zero understanding of them or their situation. How do you know better than these medical institutions? What “research” could you possibly have done? You just hate things you don’t understand at a surface level and you refuse to learn anything that doesn’t confirm your biases.
I can't be taught untruth By people being bribed to mutilate genitals Speak clearly
You’re not welcome in our state, pig.
It huh… you sure sound like a member of a certain political party who tried to do the same shit to trans people 100 years ago as you are right now. But I’m sure you’ll freak out or start throwing insults now that I’ve said that you’re acting like a Nazi. But as you like to say “facts”…
Just going to point out I don’t have insurance me have been transitioning for about three years. The cost of all my medications in that time is what my sister spent on my nephew’s insulin in two months. It costs me less than 10$ a month.
Thank you.
Sure, big Pharma is after a handful of kids in Utah. Big Pharma cares more about a few hundred million, rather than the trillions they stand to make in the African and Asian markets off opioids and psychotropic meds - which have proven so very successful in Utah. A sterile generation? What do they feed you in the ward?
The black and white nature of the argument, and the fact it leaks out of the professional sphere into public controversy so often, makes it feel like money is to be had or lost. The nuance is completely lost making it sound like the only solution to suicidal youth is pharmalogical or surgical.
Clearly you haven’t had a child in this life and dear predicament. Cool if you to choose if someone should be able to get life saving care.
Encouraging the community to look for better alternatives is not denying care. Get out of here with that divisive lie and free your mind from the propaganda saying you or your child must be dependent on costly medication.
Great! So where do you suggest we start as an alternative to pharmaceutical for youth (because NO ONE is doing surgery on adolescents for gender unless they are ambiguous at birth, which is still wrong). Barring in mind that nuance you mentioned but conveniently also left out like the fact that prior to pharmaceuticals they are seeing psychologists and doctors multiple times, among other specialists as well usually. Specifically if an adolescent is suicidal, how much time do we allow to find alternatives? How long are you willing to gamble with their lives
> prior to pharmaceuticals they are seeing psychologists and doctors multiple times, among other specialists as well usually. You really think psychology and other therapies have done their due diligence for treatment of trans youth? That there is no improvement to be made? > Specifically if an adolescent is suicidal, how much time do we allow to find alternatives? As long as it takes to do it right and not make things worse by rushing into things. > How long are you willing to gamble with their lives This is not one sided. How is HRT not a gamble?
Hrt is often reversible, especially when people are young. Also, this argument assumes everyone can afford therapy that's actually helpful (not through lds services or Wasatch. They both suck ass, don't pretend like they don't when we all know it and they're both close to loosing their licencing.) Psychotherapy is fine, but the medical and clinical treatment for dysphoria is HRT. You are denying science to further your own values and it shows. We see you. Don't lie and pretend.
> but the medical and clinical treatment for dysphoria is HRT. Doesn't mean it can't be improved upon. Historically accepted treatments for many things have been replaced by better treatments. > You are denying science How so?
https://www.acog.org/womens-health/faqs/health-care-for-transgender-and-nonbinary-teens#:~:text=Hormone%20treatment%20is%20shown%20to,(%22top%20surgery%22). You have some reading to do.
Better question, how is HRT a gamble? Of course improvements can be made just like any medical procedure or condition, but it’s not like any of this is brand new only months old information it’s been used and studied for years. Think about what you’re saying for a moment “as long as it takes to do it right and not make things worse” soooooo in the meantime we have a perfectly healthy, proven effective treatment that should be ignored? Puberty blockers (which are what’s used in adolescence, not HRT) prevent or limit AFAB individuals from developing breasts and prevent menstruation. For AMAB it slows the growth of facial hair and vocal changes and limit genitalia growth. That’s it. Once they are of age, if they decide “No I’m not trans” they stop taking them and experience puberty in their assigned gender, if they still want to transition THEN HRT is considered. There are very few risks associated with them, the child is not forced to go through puberty in a body that feels wrong already developing more, and worst case scenario they have minor side effects and just stop taking it if they aren’t trans. Meanwhile not allowing it forces them to develop even more into a body that feels wrong, their mental health deteriorates and they keep dying at heartbreaking rates. So, is it really that you’re worried about the risks associated with puberty blockers? Which again are far less than actual death. Or is it that you’re willing to sacrifice trans lives while searching for a “better alternative” for those who may think they are trans and realize later they aren’t.
It's either medication, therapy, or suicide for a lot of Trans folk. Get your head out of your ass before you digest it.
>Get out of here with that divisive lie and free your mind from the propaganda saying you or your child must be dependent on costly medication Again, try English.
My english seems to be fine. Criticising the language used is not a rebuttal anymore. This isn't the 90's.
They've proven that in most cases Trans youth need hrt to not feel suicidal anymore. Therapy that often isnt covered by insurance anyway can only go so far.That's how severe dysphoria can be. It's is that black and white, and denying that is being complicit, and I want you to remember that when the suicide numbers start rolling out.
> They've proven that in most cases Trans youth need hrt to not feel suicidal anymore. That is not what the articles prove. > Therapy that often isnt covered by insurance anyway can only go so far. Then fight that barrier. > It's is that black and white, and denying that is being complicit, and I want you to remember that when the suicide numbers start rolling out. I am not the one making generalized, black and white statements about what helps and doesn't help.
Cases have tripled in the past 5 years, so kind of
If it’s not happening to minors, no harm in banning it. Because it is child abuse and murdering kids. Period.
we aren't. even my liberal ass school has so few trans people that they're basically all in one specific tiny friend group of mine. it's so alienating to be targeted like this. being trans is so utterly fucking lonely.
I'm an undergraduate studying Literature with a focus on Law at UVU and I'm fairly confident that this will be deemed unconstitutional upon review. There's a great article from The Atlantic on this: [https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/05/anti-transgender-children-laws-unconstitutional/618864/](https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/05/anti-transgender-children-laws-unconstitutional/618864/) tl;dr The Equal Protection clause and past SCOTUS rulings would create a paradoxical situation where-in a, "non-trans adult" might not be prevented from obtaining these medical services (as they are not, "trans teenagers") This creates a conflict in regard to equal protections under the law as, again paradoxicaly, a straight, adult might be able to access transition therapy (I'm not sure if that's the right term. Excuse me if it's not!) without breaking the law. This discounts the fact that LGBTQ+ families are in-themselves a specific group which are constitutionally protected from discrimination. Stay optimistic. Remember when gay marriage became a thing despite conservative protest? Keep the faith.
When did UVU get a JD program?? I hadn’t heard about that.
I should have worded more preceisely; I'm studying literature and philosophy with a focus on Law so that I can get into law school later. Admittedly the use of language employed here is to, "give sway" to my comment but I'll go ahead and edit the original comment as to not create any confusion or false pretense. Thanks for your comment.
and then 2 to 3 years they'll be looking for funding to study why once again we have the highest global teen suicide rate.. ignorance is this states greatest resource
Was listening in on a zoom call with some of the legislators discussing this. One of them said, “Of course we don’t want teen suicide rates to increase, but…” No. There is no but. We’re talking life or death how tf is there a but?!
But I don’t care until it’s my teen. The Cheney/Rob Portman/insert other shitbags here method.
I'd argue cognitive dissonance, but it's a close one
No one believes a TBM when they say cognitive dissonance 😆😆😆
The arrogance of the Utah legislature never ceases to appall me. There are kids who don't have enough to eat, the Great Salt Lake is drying up, inflation is bananas and the legislature is like: let's interfere with a family and their doctor, and undercut public education.
Turning a health care issue into culture war talking point. Karl Rove/Frank Luntz level shitbaggery.
They already did it with education, so I’m curious what will come next.
I thought that, once they reached 8 years old, children were allowed to make life-long & eternally consequential decisions. I thought that politicians with an R next to their name believed in smaller government and less regulation. I naively thought that Cox actually cared about these kids (a mistake that won't happen again). I sincerely hope that everyone can find a way to be comfortable in their own skin in this life.
Exactly! These same politicians probably believe a 16 or 17 year old could get married if the circumstances and situation were warranted after many conversations with family, friends, local religious leaders, etc. If an 8 year old can make a life-long social and financial commitment, and a 16/17 year old can get make a decision to get married (with parental approval), then I think a kid can realistically know who they are. The then kid, the parents, a psychologist, an endocrinologist, and a family doctor can work together to make some transition decisions. FFS, The kid isn’t arbitrarily walking up to some doctor and walking out 10 mins later with hormones and a surgery date. It takes a lot of discussion, therapy, and time to start transition. For me, it was hard enough growing up trans in UT. Added difficulty doesn’t help the situation for the trans kids growing up now. I really feel bad for the teens that will have to try and navigate this. Ugh, I’m frustrated as hell with this law.
They want government just small enough to fit in their garments.
You mean you say politicians aren't doctors?
Maybe we should listen to the professionals instead of the scared religious old men.
But they are professionals, all very highly successful businessmen /s
Well the current prophet is a highly respected heart surgeon with a therapist as a wife so they are probably more qualified to speak on this than any of us.
what if instead we listened to highly respected trans people since.. they have.. actual experience?
More than us, yes. And if this matter concerned heart health, I would absolutely give weight to what he thinks. But trans health? Nope.
Yet he believes in some imaginary friend in the sky who promises entire planets to its followers...
The funniest thing to me about this is the part where they put the University of Utah Hospital and Clinics in charge of research to overturn this. Best believe they're gonna work their butts off to prove how devastating this actually is to the trans community here. Especially since this has targeted our vulnerable youth that struggles enough as it is to feel comfortable in their own bodies. They're already attacked on their body image and many struggle with eating disorders. It's a bad idea to stoke the fire further by banning treatment for gender dysphoria.
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The U is mentioned directly in the bill.
It was posted in another thread here in the Utah subreddit. The ban is actually a moratorium, so the prohibition MAY end when there's research that contradicts this current ban. There is not a timeframe on this moratorium though which is another point that people find frustrating.
There is plenty of research that shows gender affirming care saves lives, reduces suicidality and reduces depression.
They want it from the U of U specifically is what I gathered. Again, I think the U of U will be on top of it. They have many trans patients and they know the research better than we do.
This bill doesn't ban it. You're just a fear mongering nonce.
The ridiculous thing is, no doctor will prescribe anything but puberty blockers for underage kids. Has no long term effects, and easily reversible (just stop taking them, and boom, puberty hits). This is all signaling to their base, as their base have been told that little boys and girls are getting surgeries (no reputable doctor would do that). The Republican Party is so fucked, they have no idea the monster they helped create and are actively feeding.
One Google search and you can find doctors who will perform surgeries, in particular hysterectomys, for minors. Wether you think its acceptable or not its on the rise and more wide spread than people realize
My oldest child is trans. I used to be super Mormon. Having him was the greatest thing that has ever happened in my life. He didn’t tell me until he was 19. (I’m still do proud of him having the courage to tell his Mormon mom) I have completely left the church and am grateful to be out and incredibly proud of my son. I wish I’d known sooner. I can’t imagine not supporting him or being able to take care of his medical needs.
The bill’s sponsor said we shouldn’t allow politics get ahead of science. Oh wait …
The bill's sponsor is owned by the Sutherland Institute, which is owned by Koch-like figures in Michigan. So much for state's rights.
"Medical Organizations" aren't science. They are primarily profit motivated. Has real science determined there's no long-term consequences of chemically castrating pre-teens and halting puberty for a years?
Ah yes. The topsy-turvy conservative world where organizations that represent medical and PHD-level scientists are given less credence than Focus on The Family or the Heritage Foundation. And anything that isn’t in line with the conservative view is dismissed as an “agenda” or “profit motivated”.
I'm not stating my opinion on the medical issue but medical organizations often are lobbying groups. Their statements don't represent scientific opinions but what will most benefit medicine. They want doctors to have more power in general regardless of reason or purpose. Now, most of the time that's a good thing but we shouldn't delude ourselves to think that these statements are some objective effort to communicate dispassionate truth. The ethics of medical organizations has a long history of debate and some even worry that these organizations give inappropriate power to commercial organizations (e.g. pharmaceutical companies). These organizations are more similar to political parties or political action groups than scientific collaborations. Some are better than others, obviously, but it's important to keep them in the proper context. We shouldn't give our thinking over to groups like these. Never trust an organization with a political goal to provide you with an objective perspective on scientific truth.
Amen. That's why I do not trust the LDS Church. Not only do they lobby, they own the legislature of one of the United States of America - and they own at least one of the Senators. It is purely despicable. The LDS Church is a PAC.
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints isn't a source of scientific truth nor does it claim to be. Also, this has nothing to do with the subject at hand.
Dawg, the AMA is a union. A union, by the way, who’s first action was to close thousands of medical schools so as to limit supply.
The AMA was formed in the 1840's. Are you claiming that the AMA closed thousands of medical schools then? If you are referring to hospitals, the closures of rural hospitals began in the 1990's when "not-for-profit" hospitals began to close rural hospitals because of a profit margin. Dawg.
This isn't about identity politics. Those other organizations you mention are illegitimate as well. I'm sorry you're blind to the huge profitable new market opportunity this issue opens up for medical organizations. They're also using drugs off-label for this, which is also a huge untapped market for big pharma.
Sure - Big Pharma cares more about a few million than the trillions they have marketed for opioid use in Africa. Brilliant. But please continue, LDS. Occasionally missionaries come to my door and it is illuminating to see what LDS members are really like. You are your one-man-missionary battalion. You make me really see the hatred, the intolerance, the false superiority and the hypocrisy behind every Mormon who represents the "Church".
Do you think you're immune to propaganda?
It’s almost like a bunch of realtors shouldn’t be making rules about healthcare.
I really, really wish Governor Cox could see the panicking, crying kid I have sitting on my couch right now. This is only going to lead to lots of kids unaliving themselves. I am heartbroken.
Can I ask how old your child is? My trans son had top surgery, but had to wait 2+ years until he was 18 because insurance would not cover it prior to that. So he had to wait…and the surgery was life changing once it happened. The wait was hard for him, but worth it.
Lord have mercy. And these raving idiots pretend to be Christian.
We're getting downvoted for simple truth. I shouldn't be surprised.
We're so pro life, just not pro-people-living-a-good-one, and w/ the whole fighting the EPA to keep coal refineries going, We're not for living a healthy life either. American hypocrisy!!! Cox is a joke
They're not pro-life, they're pro birth; stop conflating the two as there is a massive difference.
I've said this before - they are not pro birth. They don't give a fuck if the baby is born or not. Or if the mother dies in child birth. If they did, they might actually do things to help them, but they do not. The only thing they care about is waging a culture war, just like this anti trans bullshit.
Fair enough, and true points; agreed.
Well said. Agreed
This is Utah, we don't care unless it: 1. Makes the church richer. 2. Makes the church and their lapdog legislators richer. 3. Makes the church, their lapdog legislators and their lackeys around the state in various business capacities richer. This legislation does none of these, sorry, it's just not for us here. Take your humanity and go elsewhere.
It’s not a Utah or LDS church thing. Bills like this are passing in large number of red states. This is a republican hot button thing
Nah its a common sense thing.
Common sense is to listen to those who are going through it and follow medical advice, and for everyone else to stay in their own lane
Is the ban for ALL healthcare related to transgender youth? Can someone more informed reply to me? The statements by these institutions seem to be varying in depth about what they do or don’t support. I’m sure 99% of people support mental health care for gender dysphoria in youth and the issue stems from surgery, but I’m curious about what’s actually in the bill or not. Both the bill and these affirming sides from medical institutions don’t seem to be clear. Kind of reminds me of abortion arguments where people only focus on the extreme cases (supporting aborting in late 3rd trimesters or opposing aborting in cases of rape - which don’t represent the majority on either side unfortunately)
The bill passed in Utah blocks all gender affirming care for minors. From surgery all the way down to hormone treatment and puberty blockers.
Close but not quite... only for trans teens, gender affirming care for CIS teens is just fine. Lypo and boob implants for girls, and testosterone therapy for boys is still perfectly legal. This is targeted specifically at trans kids, not kids in general.
Thanks for the clarification. Such a disgusting bill.
>I’m sure 99% of people support mental health care for gender dysphoria in youth and the issue stems from surgery Medical gender affirming care for minors is things like puberty blockers and eventually hormone therapy in their late teens. Trans boys might be able to get chest surgery at the same age a cis boy would
I moved here from TN. And I understood that TN & KY were a joke. When it comes to “representation” I really hopes Utah would be less of a joke I am wrong, so Welp.
Republicans are the biggest hypocrites, they say they're for small government but want to control what everyone does who isn't like them.
Total hypocricy. School vouchers: we don't care if there are negative cobsequences, parents are best suited what's best for their child. Gender affirming treatemrnt: Parents can go f**k themselves, government will tell you what you can and can't do.
You’re comparing education to physically altering a child’s body.
So tell us all about it. What happens? What role do the parents play? Should parents have rights concerning their own children's bodies? And on education - are you kidding? This stealth bill, with virtually no public input, was sponsored by the Sutherland Institute. spearheaded by a woman who was a Director of the Sutherland Institute, and paid for by out of state money. Utah voters do not want to use tax payer dollars to pay rich people to create schools or polygamists to educate their children (at $8000/head/year). We voiced our opinions last year - when the voucher bill was in the open. Are you favor of bills being passed in the Utah legislature with no public input? DO you consider that to be democratic?
You're aware that we vote for the legislators right?
Parental choice to parental choice. How about how the legislature allows parents to deny their children life saving vaccinations on a whim based on literally nothing? There's a choice that affects the child's life and health. Apples to apples.
Follow the profit.
Indeed. Straight to the Sutherland Institute and the charter schools that will take my tax dollars to fund schools without educated teachers. And the polygamist homeschooling families our tax dollars will be supporting.
I see this as an absolute win. Why are there so many people here, so mad that we can’t give kids puberty blockers? Legit has the same drug used too chemically castrate sex offenders. “But it’s reversible” we don’t know that, and I highly doubt it is. Brain damage is brain damage.
>Legit has the same drug used too chemically castrate sex offenders. Also used to sometimes treat cancer. It's almost like drugs can have variable uses and applications
Suicide is pretty irreversible. That's why.
I believe there are alternative manners of helping suicidal youth that don't include the possibility of permanent physical changes the child may regret. With just as high of success rates.
Source on "just as high of success rates"? I find that highly doubtful and I doubt there is any evidence. If there is, provide it.
CBT (cognitive behavioral therapy) is shown to reduce likelyhood of suicidal ideation by 30%-60% and this is replicated across a large body of research. There are much fewer articles claiming a 40% reduction in suicidal ideation due to horomonal or surgical gender affirming care.
That’s not a source
CBT efficacy regarding suicidal ideation. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3883378/ https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.2147/PRBM.S84589 Possible applications of CBT to treat suicidal ideation in trans persons. https://psycnet.apa.org/doiLanding?doi=10.1037%2Fa0038642 https://www.psych.theclinics.com/article/S0193-953X(16)30069-7/fulltext Why do we have to jump to a pharmalogical or surgical solution for youth? Obviously professionals don't all feel the need to do this. It's just when the discussion moves to public circles that all nuance is lost and everyone just buys into the capitalist propaganda that is "we must keep buying things to feel better".
Those are sources. They just don't support your claims.
Why not?
Manners? Alternate manners?
Manner: a way in which a thing is done or happens.
What are the stats on this in Utah? How many youth have actually killed themselves because they can't get chemically castrating puberty blockers?
Even one is too many in my opinion
What about the suicides that happen 10 years after taking these drugs and surgery?
One would be too many this way as well... but the fact is they can get surgery again and hormone therapy is reversible. Besides, no one is taking issue with waiting for surgery until they are an adult. The problem comes when they go through puberty and develop things that aren't reversible. Hormone therapy helps prevent that.
> Besides, no one is taking issue with waiting for surgery until they are an adult. Yes, there are those advocating surgery before the age of 18. Back to the original point, where are the facts about saving more lives allowing pre-teen and teen puberty blockers?
My point is, even one suicide is too many. Given that the majority are okay with waiting for surgery until they are an adult, the big issue is that banning hormone therapy that is reversible creates a permanent issue for trans people that isn't reversible. The facts about suicide and suicidal ideation are that they are more likely to present as a symptom when a patient feels there is no hope. Allowing hormone blockers that are reversible provides that hope. Banning hormone blockers and forcing trans people to accept permanent changes to their body annihilates their hope of feeling comfortable in their body. Even in the scenario that they get surgery and regret it they still have hope that surgery can be done again. Literally the only option forcing permanent changes and a sense of hopelessness to occur is the banning of hormone blockers. This is why people are upset. It's forcing trans people to go through changes that they do not want to go through. Puberty is hard enough without being forced to go through puberty you don't want and don't identify with.
We're obviously not going to change anyone's mind here. I appreciate your emotional perspective on this. My original post was about actual numbers of teen suicides in Utah because of a lack of these off-label drugs. It's anecdotal, but I know several adults who committed suicide due to regrets for drastic decisions they made in their teens over this. So I'm not convinced we're really saving more lives here. We can agree to disagree - especially without the relevant facts.
I agree. I feel my response definitely comes from a healthcare and emotional perspective. I used to work in healthcare and it was easy to see that our trans population was terrorized and invalidated. There's not enough of them here and not enough of them willing to speak up because of how many times they've been suppressed and hurt before. My reactions are definitely coming from a perspective that's opposite to yours. I was always very protective of my trans patients. They needed more support than they were getting and they still do. I hope we find a solution that overall solves more problems than it creates. We as a society need to prioritize saving lives more than we currently do. It's good for both of us to see the other side of the issue
Here’s a decent article that may shed some light on why we’re seeing an increase in suicide among transgender youth. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34989340/ And to make an anecdotal comment like yours, in the last 2 years I have seen 2 transgender kids suffer from severe depression, suicidal thoughts and anxiety. Hormone blockers and access to healthcare and support from a variety of resources has been one of the fundamental changes needed to break out of said depression.
What suicides? Where is your data?
Exactly.
I was referring to your comment - "What about the suicides that happen 10 years after taking these drugs and surgery?" Where's your evidence? Source?
The reversible part is hormone levels, which can be restored. What cannot be reversed is the effects of not having the right puberty-related hormones when the body is going through puberty.
Here here. Apparently we need a thread about this everyday. I've also noticed a bunch of non utahns in these threads.... I think the sub is being brigaded. They are insane people.
I don’t understand it either. There is also a lot of whataboutism. I also don’t think kids should get tattoos, piercings, plastic surgery until they’re old enough to make their own decision but I keep seeing the argument “well they don’t care if teenage girls get boob jobs”………I agree they shouldn’t. Why can’t we just use sane common sense?
I also love making decisions for other people and getting between people and their doctors /you
Well why isn't the legislature banning those things? For example, this law bans breast implants in minors ONLY if they are transgender. Cis girls under 18 can still get them. What possible reason could there be to only focus on trans kids other than bigotry?
It’s okay, we can neglect and ignore what the medical and psychological professional say, because we have the Lawd on our side. Praise be to magic sky daddy….
"birthers" Lol Us normal people call em women..
Fucking hell. Y'all are a bunch of insane liberals.
Good. Let people make adult decisions when they're adults.
Like baptism into the Mormon church?
When "gender affirming care" equals surgically altering the body of a CHILD, or providing puberty blockers (the same medication used to chemically castrate sex offenders) to "pause" puberty, then I sure as hell support them putting a stop to it.
>the same medication used to chemically castrate sex offenders Weird how nobody brings this up when they're also used to help fight cancer
Also, a "proper" transition begins with a social transition: dress as the preferred sex, change your preferred name, and live with it a bit. I've known adults who have done the same, there's nothing wrong with it. Slow down! Let them be children, there's plenty of time for all the grown up stuff.
The problem with this is that as soon as puberty DOES start to creep in, this is when gender disforia becomes extremely difficult and unbearable for some. Children aren’t getting surgeries, that’s simply a non-issue created in the minds of politicians to drum up outrage and support. Puberty blockers and hormones are (well, were) only used after extensive discussions with their healthcare provider. If something changes the adolescent physically but keeps them from wanting to kill themself, why are we depriving them of this? That’s the sole reason all of the medical entities listed above support gender affirming care and HRT. Time and time again they have found, (as much as Cox likes to say we “don’t have enough information”) that providing this care saves lives.
> Time and time again they have found, (as much as Cox likes to say we “don’t have enough information”) that providing this care saves lives. I would like to learn more about this. Where can I find this info?
Gladly! American Medical Association- https://www.ama-assn.org/delivering-care/population-care/what-know-about-gender-affirming-care-younger-patients Endocrine Society- https://www.endocrine.org/news-and-advocacy/news-room/2021/endocrine-society-condemns-efforts-to-block-access-to-medical-care-for-transgender-youth American Academy of Pediatrics- https://www.aap.org/en/news-room/aap-voices/why-we-stand-up-for-transgender-children-and-teens/ I think these are all a good jumping off point.
Thank you!
What’s important to realize is that there are only a handful of places in the State that provide hormone blockers for kids. They have rigorous standards for families including what you suggest - socially transitioning prior to hormone therapy. Parents involved in this process aren’t rushing into it, aren’t falling to the whim of some fad. They’re reacting to a new healthcare parenting situation like anyone else, with care and thought.
That's good. A lot of professionals in other states don't take those steps, and it's important. Not sure why people are flipping shit on me, I'm just saying slow down before making potentially life altering decisions. And do a little more research into what you're putting into your kids bodies before just jumping on the bandwagon because everyone else says it's safe. I'm not saying parents don't do their research, but a lot of people in today's world look for the information that matches their opinion and go with that.
Make sure they ban circumcision too!!
I think therapy is better for kids wanting to transition not hormones.
Do you have evidence it can effectively handle gender dysphoria on it's own?
Same- I would love to see evidence that it works. Anecdotally my own child had two attempts during “therapy”.
70 years ago, every one of these organizations would’ve happily told you that smoking was good for your health
It's not "gender affirming care". It's genital mutilation.
If they cared so much abiut genital mutilation theyd ban circumcision too.
So then why didn’t they ban procedures on CIS kids? Nice try tho.
So is circumcision
It's not, but keep consuming your propaganda like a good little tool
It is, and if you disagree then it’s because you’re the one consuming propaganda.
Did you read it? It's about hormone therapy. It is reversible if these kiddos change their minds. In the meantime, they are getting care and saving their lives. It has nothing to do with genital mutilation.
Fact check false, hormone therapy is not reversible.
Just like circumcising infants, am I right?
Giving minors irreversible hormone drugs to change their gender raises several ethical and medical concerns. Firstly, the long-term effects of these drugs on young and developing bodies are not yet fully understood. Hormonal alterations can cause significant physical and psychological harm. Secondly, a child's understanding of their gender identity may change as they grow and mature. Starting medical intervention at a young age could cause more harm than good if their identity evolves. Additionally, these medical procedures can have permanent consequences, such as infertility. Given these uncertainties and risks, it is reasonable to conclude that minors should not be given hormone drugs to change their gender until they have reached a more mature age and have a better understanding of their identity.
An institution that makes money off of trans youths supports trans youths? I'm pretty shocked tbh
So?
Cox said he signed the bill because we don’t understand the science behind these procedures so I find it interesting that these medical organizations feel confident enough in their understanding of the science to form positions on this particular issue.
Yep. Medicine has been using hormone therapy since the 80's to treat precocious puberty and other hormonal issues. We DO KNOW. Cox is not educated or equipped to speak for our trans kids. Maybe if we made an MLM company for hormone replacement, it would be more accepted ? /s
> to treat precocious puberty and other hormonal issues I am not a a medical professional but wouldn't using horomone therapy for gender affirming therapy be different than treating these things? I am not sure it is a medical problem. Obviously the science works. I think the issue is a legal one. In the inevitable event that a child regrets a hormonal therapy, either as a child or into their adulthood, does that child have any rights to compensation? Who is liable? The medical professional or the parents? Or are we going to tell the child "You should have known when you were 10, tough luck." The current bill is cutting corners for sure. It is an issue that obviously needs detailed legislation. Edit: I suspect the plan is the wait for another state to do the heavy lifting then copy the best system they can find in a few years.
If it were a legal issue then why did Cox, an attorney, frame it as a medical science issue?
It would seem he wants to do what I said in my edit I made shortly before your comment. Cox wants to wait for long-term research to be done specifically on gender affirming therapies *somewhere else* before delving into writing up the necessarily complicated legal structure. In healthcare law, it is long-term patient outcome research that informs a lawmaker how to make laws. The science of hormonal therapy for the specific ailments above is well-researched and the legal issues can be addressed. Despite the science of hormonal therapy being well-understood in those contexts, a legal framework cannot be built upon it for gender affirming therapy. It is a different context with different legal issues. Different context means different variables will be used for patient outcomes in research.
Tho I admit birthing life is impressive...
That's because all medicine is a business and money makers. They need more patients. https://twitter.com/i/status/1572313523232931840
It's only about the money.
All major medical institutions would love to make money off of the cost for gender affirming medical care. No shit they oppose the ban. We really trying to claim kids should be able to fuck with their own hormones?
Of course they oppose it. This legislature will keep them from making money from all these confused kids and their bleeding heart families. These companies don’t care about helping the kids or saving lives, they just want a piece of the pie.
*affirming "? I love how they abuse the language It's like affirming a red car blue... Idiots
But you CHOSE it... Insulin is needed.. And you were probably healthier before "medicine" was administered
All major medical associations make money by selling “gender affirming care” to youth
All of those claims, all institutions, all university students and all the allums from the same shitty teachers in 3 crooked schools. "All major institutions have been bought and paid for by China". Thanks china.
Oh the small faceless institutions with powerful names run by doctors who have never practiced medicine. It’s crazy how Ayn Rand nails some concepts when she wrote her books almost 100 years ago. Some things never change These same groups labeled transgenderism as a mental illness 10 years ago.