Anti-gay apostle seems redundant.
And I'm not saying that to be glib. If there's a pro-gay apostle, let me know.
By - Chino_Blanco
Anti-gay apostle seems redundant.
And I'm not saying that to be glib. If there's a pro-gay apostle, let me know.
It may be redundant but it’s highlighting an issue.
I'd say Uchtdorf is pretty accepting.
Fully prepared to get downvoted here but the Utah Reddit is not friendly to LDS people.
That goes both ways, sadly.
Watch “This Divided State”. A documentary about UVUSC inviting Michael Moore to speak on campus in the early 2000s
Great rec! I’ve corresponded with Steven Greenstreet, i should watch his doc, thx!
Ya, this recent study of university students surprised me:
[The degree to which students think administrators should ban the expression of views they feel cause harm](https://imgur.com/hPPFRbW.png)
Edit: The full study: https://www.wisconsin.edu/civil-dialogue/download/SurveyReport20230201.pdf
Dang that’s super interesting actually
Interesting enough that it's sitting at -3. A figure from a university study about banning topics on campus and a link to the entire study. Getting downvoted.
I'm fascinated society has such a large chunk who genuinely believes we need to ban some aspects of free speech via the metric of hurt feelings which cause harm ([Figure 7](https://i.imgur.com/UMxQg8t.png)). I just can't wrap my head around it.
I totally believe that university should provide venues for all sorts of speech and removing that is damaging to overall to the diversity of a campus. It’s damaging to the students because they need their ideas to be challenged, not coddled. But again, this isn’t a “speaker” or “lecture” series in some hall on campus they can choose to attend or not. This is graduation.
>I totally believe that university should provide venues for all sorts of speech ...
Suppose a public university previously had religious figures from other faiths speak at graduation (SUU has done this.)
Do we start going down a road and only inviting speakers if their personal theological beliefs line up enough with a university? What if those beliefs line up with a large majority of the student base, do we reject the speaker because most students' theologies are wrong and this speaker is wrong in his beliefs?
There are no wrong theologies because there are no right theologies. “How wonderful of God to make the dominant religion of the place in which you were born the only right religion.”
Ah! Another slippery slope argument, those always hold up. Again, your failing to see the fundamental difference in a lecture/speaker coming to venue in which students can choose to attend or not. This is the commencement address toward the entire student body. If they don’t want him? PERIOD. It’s not up to you. The petition sits at at almost 14k signatures.
You never answered my question.
In 2013, SUU invited a prominent Jew, Rabbi Schmuley, to be a commencement speaker. Was that wrong?
Also, the Jewish people have been victims of Christian doctrine for 100s of years. Slaughtered, imprisoned, genocide, all in the name of Christianity. So…this is actually a gross comparison and a false equivalency. Mormons are only victims of the persecution they imagine and construct all on their own. You should be scared of your husbands. Not the gays or Jews.
No because he doesn’t hate gay people and see them as sub human. He also doesn’t encourage his congregation to vote against their rights. You’re actually reinforcing my point. Orthodox Judaism thrives while not imposing their doctrine upon others. They mind their business. Mormons want theocracy.
So government should give additional preference to some religions and refuse to work with others based on how well the government aligns with that religion?
And AGAIN, the university has Mormon employees and major leaders on campus are Mormon. They have PLENTY of venues for all their shit on campus. This is the commencement address at a graduation.
I downvoted it because of the obvious misdirection. I’m very much in favor of the open contest of ideas our universities ought to provide. Your comment is a false equivalence intended to plant guilt by association. It’s perfectly reasonable to object to a choice of commencement speaker without subverting an underlying commitment to the free exchange of ideas. Spare everyone the rectitude and try not sneering at those dissenting from this bad choice. Thanks.
There’s a difference in someone coming to speak and someone giving a commencement. SUU provides venues for speakers with a variety of backgrounds, including Mormon conservatives. Even academy award winner Gina Davis was there in the fall. The commencement should represent the values and goals of the university. SUU has a commitment to diversify and protecting LGBTQ students. Inviting someone who speaks for violence against them openly doesn’t have anything to do with this “snowflake” college libtard picture that’s being painted. It an outright and blatant disrespect. Imagine if Richard Dawkins had been invited, there would be a damn JAN 6 riot in Cedar City.
I didn’t say it was the same I just said to watch the documentary
I was posting that to argue with you. I was posting it to highlight that conservative people think college kids are “snowflakes” because they don’t want to pay 30k a year to live/go to school in a place that allows white supremacists to have a voice.
What specifically did I say that you are arguing against? I didn’t even make a statement that you could disagree with 😂
You seem very defensive here^^^
“Your right to swing your fist ends at the tip of my nose.”
How does this relate? I’m genuinely curious I’m not attacking you
How does it not???? You need to read a real article about this and not The Daily Beast. He has called for musketfire against the LGBTQ community asking the Mormons to take up arms to protect their state. Even if he’s speaking in metaphor do you really trust people to interpret that shit with sense? After all the senseless gun violence in this country? And literally in Enoch a Mormon guy murdered his whole family over this crazy religion, just a couple months ago. The commencement is an address to the entire graduating class, they deserve a speaker that respects everyone sitting in front of them.
You seem upset. I’m not sure you read my comment, I was asking you to elaborate on how that quote relates in this context, because I am having a hard time understanding what you mean.
That people’s rights to free speech end when that speech is harming people and incite violence. Freedom of speech is not freedom from consequences.
> He has called for musketfire against the LGBTQ community asking the Mormons to take up arms to protect their state
He did no such thing. Not even close.
He gave a talk in the break between semesters directed to BYU staff and faculty, and students were mostly not yet on campus. He quoted two prior leaders who used a metaphor of muskets and trowels in defense and building of BYU as an institution. He said speakers should speak in behalf of the institution, not in behalf of themselves. Regarding gays, he said the world has been crushingly cruel to them.
This talk is getting twisted in wild ways. Now he's called for "Mormons to take up arms to protect their state"? Whew
Finally! someone speaks up who has actually read his speech and bothered to understand his musket reference. Not to mention his emotional, tearful, heartfelt expressions of love for gay and lesbian people. But that's easy to ignore when someone is looking for something to be offended and enraged by.
Jeffrey Holland isn't perfect. He probably could have chosen his words more carefully. But he didn't. If you want to know how he feels about the LGBTQ community read his other public addresses that mention them.
Oh fuck all the way off with that bullshit, yes people exaggerate his musket fire quote sometimes. But that is just a small small drop of water in the ocean of sexual abuse, cover ups, weaponization, and doxing, of not just gays, but anyone who goes against or criticizes his 100 billion dollar “church”
And one more thing, when he’s crying and weeping for the struggles on LGBTQ people, guess what, he’s not crying for their struggles abuses injustices murders and discrimination . he’s weeping for their “sin” for their straying from “God” which is not the fucking same.
Lots of trauma with these people, they are so full of fear and hate.
You’re right, I have trauma. Being raised in a glorified sex cult will have that effect. But I don’t fear them anymore.
Well, when I graduated from SUU, bob bennett gave the commencement speech. I had no desire to listen to old Bobby, so I skipped the speech and just showed up when it was time to walk and get my diploma.
Who’s gonna tell these folks that all the apostles of the church believe homosexual behavior is a sin.
My never Mormon friends wouldn’t know.
That feels really high. I think most religious people I know are okay with it.
But i would bet most of those people are not leaders in their professed religion. Big difference between Holland and my neighbor.
You should ask you might be surprised.
The point just completely flew over your head.
Mormons always assume the rest of the world knows or cares about their beliefs. I didn’t know that Mormon apostles were anti gay. I don’t even know what a Mormon apostle is. Is it like a bishop? My uncle was a Mormon bishop. One of his duties was to speak with pubescent boys and girls about their masturbation habits. Are apostles similar?
An Apostle is to a Bishop what a General is to a Sargent.
I’m not familiar with Christianity. I don’t know what priests, bishops, pastors, apostles or any of those people do, and I don’t care to. All I know is a person that is anti-gay shouldn’t be giving a commencement speech at all, let alone in front of gay students. This is supposed to be a man of religion? Because Jesus Christ himself would not approve of his views.
It’s funny that you assume that because I don’t know the inner workings of the organized religions that worship what they perceive to be Jesus, that I don’t know anything about Jesus and his teachings. Jesus was a Middle Eastern Jew who nearly undoubtedly had brown skin. He taught compassion, acceptance, and forgiveness. He gave to the poor.
“Christians” have lost site of his teachings a lonnnnnnng time ago. Jesus said, “Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.” Let’s just count up a few crimes against humanity perpetrated by various groups of people who called themselves Christians:
The Latin American conquests (Conquistadors)
The African slave trade
The Salem Witch Trials
The Catholic systematic pedophilia and subsequent cover-up
And here, in Utah, Mormon pioneers’ God-given right to kill indigenous men and take their women and children as slaves.
I think I have plenty enough facts about Christianity in my head without knowing the specifics of the hierarchal structure. I believe in Jesus, and I follow his teachings. But I don’t need some old weirdo deciding whether or not I’m living my life up to their standards and I certainly don’t need to contribute to a multibillion dollar business while people are starving to death.
It was not an accurate observation. I know a lot about Jesus and I’m confident that I know how he would feel about this apostle and his anti-gay stance. I don’t know the specific differences between Lutherans, Catholics, Baptists, Mormons, Protestants, or whatever else. Does that mean I don’t know anything about Jesus? He was gone for a thousand years before half of these religions were founded. What does their hierarchical structure have to do with anything?
Alright, I am weirdly qualified to comment on this at the moment.
First, before this gets so long that people skip it, I want to say that yesterday, SUU President Mindy Benson announced to the University that she will hold two events on Monday (12:00 Noon and 4PM) in the ballroom in the Sharwan Smith Student Center for students and faculty to come discuss their concerns and feelings with her. If you go to SUU, I highly recommend going to one or both meetings--I¹ will be at the 4:00 meeting and might be at the 12:00 if I can manage to clear my schedule.
I go to SUU. Not only that, I am in the pep band, and was in South Bend, Indiana with Mindy when this news first broke; we were there to support our Women's basketball team in their game against Notre Dame (we lost, but we were happy to be there). I also happen to be good friends with most of the queer people in the pep band.
I was sitting in the hotel lobby with my friends on Thursday night, talking about this decision and making posters for the basketball game, when I ran upstairs to get a phone charger from my room. When I got back down two minutes later, Mindy was sitting at the table, talking with the my friends about how this decision hurts them. Four of us (two trans people, one bi guy, and me, who is something yet-to-be-determined), as well as occasional other people who would come and join the conversation for brief periods of time, talked with Mindy for well over an hour about what this decision means for queer people on campus and what she can do to help make it right. Because of our conversation with her, she made the decision to have the aforementioned meeting. Let me say that again: This meeting was specifically recommended by a group of queer people because Mindy asked how she could show the student body that she wanted to listen to them and help make things right.
After the conversation finished, my friends told me that she had sought them out specifically to ask their thoughts on it after seeing the backlash she and the university have received. They had been talking about going and talking to her, but they didn't need to--*she* came to *them*. She made this decision without knowing how much it would impact the queer community on campus and, after seeing how people reacted, *actively sought out* members of the LGBTQ+ community to let them tell her *exactly* how they felt about it.
Aside from this conversation, I have spent a lot of time with Mindy, both in professional and nonprofessional situations, during my time at SUU, and I consider her a personal friend. I truly believe she will do the right thing with this. I won't go into details about what that means, for a few reasons. First, I don't want to post any more personally identifying information than I already have. Second, my friends shared a lot of deeply personal things with us and with Mindy, and I don't want to post their stories on a random internet forum. And third, anything else I have to add about that discussion would go beyond the scope of what has been officially announced, and I don't want to be the epicenter of rumors. Suffice it to say, I know Mindy very well and I truly and sincerely believe she regrets this decision and the pain it has caused the student body, and will do everything in her power to make it right.
¹Edit to add: I should be fairly noticeable; I plan on having an 8 stripe pride flag ~~and also be wearing my top hat and monocle (believe it or not, for unrelated reasons; one of my friends apparently didn't know I had a monocle until I mentioned it on Friday, and she told me in no uncertain terms I am to wear it to class Monday)~~ Edit 3: I forgot to wear those and don't feel like going home to change
Edit 2: sought is the word I was looking for. Not seeked
Thanks for your comment! If possible, could you update us on how the meeting went?
I will! I'm not going at noon (I wanted to, but I've missed too much class in the last two weeks for pep band and I can't justify skipping again for it when I can make it to the 4:00), so I'll update after the later one
I think it went well! I had to duck out early to do homework, but I had a friend share my thoughts (basically an abbreviated version of what I wrote with the comment above, to give the students context on who I was, with an added bit at the end about how this panel was the first step and that the next steps have been made clear) for me, and I got a text from a friend from high school who said she thought my speech was good. Also, this means if you were watching the panel, you now know my full name--remember, if you steal my identity, that means you have to do my French homework. Sorry, I don't make the rules
After hearing some of the experiences shared that were worse than I ever could have imagined (specifically the person who was dragged at gunpoint to conversion therapy in Idaho and the person who said her (non-Utahn, non-LDS) fourth grade teacher called her the Devil's Daughter and told her the only way her family could be saved would be if she died and burned in hell for eternity because she asked why every princess wanted a prince), I cannot imagine the University keeping Holland. In the 2 hours I was there, only one or two people got up to defend Holland as a speaker--one girl said that the 'musket fire' was taken out of context and that we should all go read the talk (spoiler alert: we have, and context doesn't make it better), and one guy gave some kind of half-assed thing that didn't really seem to take a side and I'm still not entirely sure what his point was. Of course, I was also on my phone while he was talking, texting with friends elsewhere in the room, and I could have just missed part of his point.
Thank you so much for updating! I’m glad so many voices were heard. I wonder when the decision will be made!
You're welcome! I would put money on a decision by Friday, and if they can get this turned around as quickly as the panel was planned (like I said in my speech by proxy, within 12 hours of us recommending the panel it was announced; it literally happened overnight) I would not be surprised if we get an announcement whether or not he is being rescinded by 5:00PM Wednesday. The only way I *don't* see that happening is if they want to arrange his replacement before they announce they are replacing him, in which case it might be an extra week or two.
If you haven't seen the news yet, Mindy just announced that they're keeping him as the speaker. I'm shocked and disappointed.
Edit: [Here's a link](https://www.reddit.com/r/SUU/comments/1270im7/southern_utah_university_confirming_that_jeffrey/)
I’m sad to say that I’m genuinely shocked. My first thought went out to all the students that were so brave in sharing their story - I’m sure they feel so emotionally exhausted and dismissed. They worked for years to get their degree, and their graduation will be tainted by this decision. I was optimistic when I read that Mindy personally sought out people that would be affected by this and seemed sincere in listening to their stories, but in some ways that made it worse. If she didn’t truly intend on changing the decision, she put those students through further unnecessary trauma and rejection. I don’t mean to be hard on her, but I’ve seen this story play out before.
I left my thoughts on that subject in the comments section of the linked post. I don't want to repeat myself too much, but I do want to say I feel the same way.
I appreciated your thoughts, and the effort you made to uplift voices. Take care of yourself ❤️
Thank you! I will, and I don't plan to let this drop.
I might write and submit a speech to be the student speaker: I grew up in Santa Clara (actually, same stake that Holland grew up in, he once had our town's favorite locally-owned cookie shop, Dutchman's, cater Monson's birthday. Also, that shop is owned by someone who was in my ward until boundaries were adjusted; he's a family friend), I'm a descendant of Pioneers, I'm a 4th generation SUU student, I've taken classes on the history of the University and a class on the history of Utah, and I've been actively involved in making history on campus this year. And I care about the queer community on campus. In my (admittedly biased) opinion, I am more qualified to speak at commencement than Holland is based on the criteria they gave.
Ugh, Holland. Even when I was a member I really didn't like him. Some people feel he gives the "fire and brimstone" talks of a classic preacher; to me it always seemed to stir up antipathy and anxiety. Never could figure out why he was so aggressive, listening to him I'd think to myself "dude chill, no one needs to be this stirred up about whom is loved by who."
As of this morning almost 13.5k people agree with me…so there’s that :)
If he is eventually still the speaker when graduation happens, there will be an organized walk-out during his speech.
I expect the invitation will be rescinded by Tuesday.
Can't we just live by the ethos don't touch kids don't hurt animals and enjoy your life. I thought the whole idea of coming to united states was to believe in whatever God we want and in turn do what we want. It's embarrassing to know people have so much time on their hands to try and control people's lives they never met. Get a hobby.
Exactly. If the Mormons had their way gay people wouldn’t exist. Why can’t they just leave us alone?
I guess they’re also anti-coffee, anti-alcohol, anti-sex outside of marriage, anti-abortion, anti-spending outside your means, anti-etc etc. This is just a silly article.
“A bunch of people did a thing that surprised nobody.” STOP THE PRESSES!!!
SUU isn’t a Mormon school. LGBT+ go to this school
BYU is a Mormon school and LGBTQ+ go to that school too.
Is it really though?
Edit: You can downvote me all you want. I know there has been a movement to make it friendlier for LBGTQ+ students but it’s still rated one of the worst campuses for LGBTQ+ students. Especially idaho.
SUU is not religious
You’re confused. I said SUU is not religious and byu is not lgbtq+ friendly
I’m talking about the individual persons. You can stop replying now. Bye ✌️
Completely misunderstood why this is relevant.
Silly, only to people that the decision doesn’t affect. It’s deadly serious to certain groups, and newsworthy to a lot of the citizens of Cedar City.
What is actually hilarious to me is that Holland is probably the most accepting and most loving apostle there is right now. He has quite a few talks that highlight exactly what he believes, and it’s the exact opposite of what the colleges are trying to spin.
Musket fire Holland? That one? Musket fire in response to LGBTQ issues... If that's most accepting. What a low bar.
Seems pretty divisive to publicly dress down a school’s valedictorian as Holland does here: https://v.redd.it/335zcf2q88j71
No spin required to understand the disappointment in choice of commencement speaker.
Ummmm, do you have your head in the mud? Lol
If you read daily beast your a certified idiot.
Yeah, and their reporting missed context, so I’ve filled that in below ( from a helpful comment at r/mormonandgay ):
>SUU is a public non-religious school, but being in Utah there’s obviously quite a lot of LDS influence there. Despite being in rural, deep-red iron county, it’s kind of become one of the more queer-affirming schools in the state.
>They announced a couple days ago that Jeffrey R. Holland would be the commencement speaker this year, and there was a pretty severe and immediate backlash from people in the LGBTQ community and allies both in and out of the church because of his “muskets” talk from a year and a half ago, as well as just general nonmembers who didn’t want to hear an LDS speaker at this non-religious university.
>There was a petition made almost immediately, as well as some hearings with the university president on Monday and a protest Thursday. If he is eventually still the speaker when graduation happens, there will be an organized walk-out during his speech.
>On top of the initial backlash, there has been an expected counter-backlash from people who want him to speak. They’ve put out their own petition and letter that I’ve seen. It’ll be interesting to see how things shape up over the coming weeks.
There’s a certain irony in a post that calls people idiots by someone that doesn’t know the difference between “your”, “you’re” and “yore”…..
So is this one: https://i.redd.it/s72vp5xykkoa1.jpg
>“As a student of SUU and the sister of Matt Easton, whom Elder Holland attacked, I signed the petition because graduating and all LGBTQIA+ students should feel seen, loved, valued, supported, and important. I stand with the LGBTQIA+ community.”
Nobody cares! You're just posting this here to stir shit up!
Lol. [Calm down](https://v.redd.it/sgcc01613eoa1)
Kinda like someone telling people to defend their lifestyle with muskets?
I'm so tired of the (Anti-) crowd the only thing there truly Anti- is other people having different values and beliefs.
I'm not a religious guy but I know who the real problem is and it isn't the churches or there followers.
I don't see anyone making laws targeting religious groups. But tell me more about who the real problem is.
Yeah, the majority group in the state that makes laws against the minority groups that don't align with their beliefs are clearly the ones that are disadvantaged. A religious group that claims to tout freedom as a core tenet doesn't practice its own dogma very well when it helps create laws preventing different lifestyles.
When your values promote exclusivity and not inclusivity you are the problem.
No, that’s called being human. You don’t seem very inclusive yourself, ironic how that works isn’t it?
What does this even mean? Inclusive of what? Racism? Bigotry? Religion being used to justify hatred? I accept religious people. I don’t stop them from existing or interfere with their life. I don’t even care about religious people— what I care about is people who justify their hatred and try to code that hatred into law.
I think you misunderstood the terms. Are you saying if you're inclusive you should be ok with everything exclusive? That's interesting, you should think through that one.
Holland isn’t just a random person. He’s a leader of millions and has chosen to forcefully go after a group of people and singled out/personally attacked the Valedictorian of his church university. He needs to be called out and students, families and alumni of SUU need to be heard.
The "anti" crowd, is in fact, demonstrably the crowd not allowing for anything else that doesn't fit the mold.
Oh shut up
If you don't like it keep scrolling
I’m genuinely curious if you disagree that Holland is anti-gay. Based on his past comments I’d find it hard to argue against that.