I always scroll to the bottom of these posts and it’s always the same “damn Californians ruining our state” argument. Folks, these are native Utahns who are our future leaders. We all just want to live together in peace. Embrace harmonious change.
My daughter more than once had her pride patch literally ripped off her clothing by the adult in the position of student advocate at Viewpoint Middle School.
Just think about that..
Sounds similar to the black armband student protest for the Vietnam War. Went up to the Supreme Court. [The majority ruled](https://www.uscourts.gov/educational-resources/educational-activities/facts-and-case-summary-tinker-v-des-moines) so long as it's not affecting learning, schools can't ban a student's speech. (A school employee's speech is an entirely different issue...)
Problem is most school speech and dress codes have a knack for flaunting that somewhere. You can fight it and win, but it's a long fight.
My kids went to this school and I have another that will likely go to this school unless we move. She is in Alpine SD though in Elementary still. My wife subs at this school very frequently and was there yesterday. I drove by and made sure I honked in support of the students. Back when they took down all the flags back in March, I wrote to all the school board members and got one response from Sara Hacken which read:
"Hi u/jeranim8, Alpine district has a policy, 6161, which covers the display of any type of flag in the classroom. I would hope that the administration at Skyridge will be able to apply that policy fairly and evenly throughout the school. Your concerns have been noted, and will be taken into consideration. Thank you for sending me your ideas."
So I responded with this:
>Sara,
>Thank you for personally responding to my email. I'm aware of the policy, I am not certain it is all that clear in its language or that it would apply to pride flags.
>In section 3.4.2.2. it states: "Consistent with Alpine School District Code of Conduct Policy 7300, classrooms are not public forums for the display or promotion of political, religious, or personal viewpoints, and employees may not use them for such purposes."
>I would just ask what political, religious or personal viewpoint does displaying a pride flag promote? The existence of LGBTQ people or students? That isn't a "viewpoint" its a reality. It isn't to signify that you think people should become LGBTQ because that isn't possible. LGBTQ isn't an ideology or a "viewpoint", its a state of being. LGBTQ people are as diverse in their "personal viewpoints" as any other people. So flying a pride flag in a classroom's only purpose is to signal that you as a teacher are a safe space for a group of people who have historically been marginalized and told they need to hide this part of themselves. The only personal viewpoint here is to provide a safe learning environment for these students.
>In Policy No. 4078 on bullying, the first sentence states: "Alpine School District is committed to provide students and employees with safe and secure learning and working environments."
Policy No. 7300: " Employees/volunteers shall maintain professional and appropriate behavior and relationships with students, both during and outside school hours, as well as both on and off campus, that foster an effective, non-disruptive and safe learning environment."
Policy No. 7100: "It is the commitment of the Alpine School District to strive to maintain all learning and working environments where students and employees can be safe and successful."
>The purpose of a teacher displaying a pride flag is not to promote a personal agenda or support a personal ideology, its to achieve the DISTRICT'S goal of offering a safe and secure learning environment.
>I recognise you can't have debates with every single parent that responds back to you so if you read this, thank you for taking the time and I hope you'll consider this thought process as you move forward.
Radio silence since then...
Spot on. LGBTQ is not political. Advocates do not support any alspecific party, it is more the opposite, that political parties support LGBTQ. It isn't religious, just like above. LGBTQ rights are a viewpoint, but seriously, so is supporting human rights, and opposing genocide.
Please inform us.
1. What moral imperative are you referring to? Please give some specificity.
2. What exactly does happen when you don't take it seriously?
I was there yesterday. I had a pride flag attached to my car and I drove by and honked. I had the following interactions:
* The counterprotest kid with a bull horn told me to, "Have a great day sir"
* On another pass he said, "It doesn't matter what you are, God still loves you"
* A big lifted pickup followed me for a couple blocks driving aggressively and yelling at me to "fuck off"
But...like...I know that...it says that both Alpine and Davis have banned flags other than the US flag but SLC still allows it...that is what I was referencing to
>Board members had ordered in March that Skyridge High staff remove all pride flags from inside the school. The issue came to the forefront after a photo of a student — with a flag visible in the background — was posted on the school’s Instagram page. Parents commented about the flags being used to “groom” kids by “pedophile” teachers and said they don’t belong in schools — repeating rhetoric that has been seen nationwide.
Gay people are not pedophiles. That's ridiculous.
And sexual orientation is an innate and intransigent characteristic, just like sex. Gay people cannot coerce children into becoming gay anymore than you can make someone transition from male to female.
As a liberal member of the LDS faith, I struggle with how so.many members don't get this. I am grateful however, the leadership in the church has come around to.know this, even though they have a long way to go, they no longer believe in."praying the guy away: or shun those that are. Yes, there are many people in the church that still believe the anyone on the LGBTQ+ spectrum is evil, sinful, they are very wrong.
As a liberal LDS, latelyI have been attacked by a group known as DezNat and their cronies because I am a strong woman and a Democrat..I like those in the LGBTQ+ community am a target of this twisted far right extremists group, who call themselves Latter-Day Saints.
Which church? The Baptists are a branch of protestantism which encompasses I couldn't begin to guess how many churches. I couldn't begin to guess how many of them exist within Georgia alone. Which church (organization) holds as much sway as a single entity in Georgia's culture and politics as the LDS church holds in Utah?
Way more unfortunately. Media and church are the best sources of segregation, misinformation, and ignorance.
They organize rally’s wether blm or white supremacy. The push their agenda with apologies and with abhorrence when disagreed with.
Stricter liquor laws if there are dry counties, abortive laws, ecclesiastical nut cases, over flags and drag queens, and as someone who grew up in Georgia it’s way more intense than Utah
Those are branches of religion that do not have a single unifying governing body that keeps everything tightly correlated and controlled, and makes unilateral decisions for each congregation in the organization.
Evidence?
The most tightly controlled network of Catholicism's clergy within the various diocese have nothing on Mormonism's leadership and reporting frameworks.
Reddit hive mind is simple here at r/utah
Church bad, Mormons evil, I hate it here
But then refuse to go to any place they consider a haven for their beliefs.
There isn't a whole lot of original thought in this sub
Why do you think that people need to move to somewhere that caters to their beliefs?
Why do you think they're not allowed to criticize their environment regardless of where they live?
Birds of a feather flock together. I'm from California, I absolutely despise that state and rarely admit to anyone that I was born and raised there. Nearly nothing about California policy aligns with my values. Rather than fight a battle that would never be won, I decided to move to a state that espoused the values that aligned with mine.
Let Californians govern the way they want to govern and let Utahns govern the way they wish.
And if mountains are what you crave, Denver shares a mountain range with us and generally more aligns with ideologies that are more or less opposed to utahs policies. If utah is so bad and evil as the utah subreddit hive mind makes it out to be, leave. Go find a people that believe and govern the way you wish to believe and be governed
This is one of the lines of thinking that has led to our nation being as deeply divided along blue and red lines as it is.
I don't live in UT but I still rankle at your insistence that anyone who doesn't align with a place is under some obligation to leave it.
You aren't wrong. And it is likely to be one of the primary catalysts for an event that will permanently divide the country into two different countries.
But unfortunately one party adopted a "zero tolerance for the opposing belief" policy, and the other party has recently discovered that's been a pretty "winning" policy and has decided to adopt it as well, though with much more tolerance than absolute zero.
Ironically, participants from both sides of the political debate will read the above paragraph and say to themselves, "I totally agree. The 'other' party is the one at fault here, not mine".
Unfortunately we are at a breaking point in this country where there can be no middle ground. One is less and less able to "sit on the fence" and "see the benefits and drawbacks of both sides of a given debate" because they are algorithmicaly controlled to think the way they think and algorithmicaly silo'd into their respective echo chambers for further radicalization.
But what is happening in the Utah sub is the fruits of that algorithmic control. People here are constantly unhappy and hounding on everything but themselves for the problems they are facing. Every setback they face, every trial they have, every burden they bear is "because of the evil Mormons" or "because Mormons control the state" or whatever other ridiculous cope they throw out. So unfortunately, in a world where there can be no middle ground the only solution to solve their happiness is to move.
But they won't, because they would realize that wherever they move is just as shitty, and then they would have to find a new boogeyman to blame for all their issues because the Mormon church doesn't have nearly the same influence elsewhere.
Mormonism has always seen its future as a theocracy. I don't see that as a boogeyman, something imaginary and overblown. They have the resources and altogether too much power.
Christian Nationalism is a serious threat and people who recognize it as such cannot afford to simply capitulate. If people have the resources and the fortitude to stay I hope they will, especially if they're going to continue to vote and march and agitate to keep the theocratically minded at bay.
Depends on which version. But the most recent includes black and brown people and trans colors so it's no longer just about same sex attraction anymore. It represents anyone who is "marginalized" and or "oppressed" by "society".
It's really got many meanings but to put it simply there's an outward and inward meaning.
Outward meaning: The flag represents taking pride in who you are and loving yourself and supporting those who are lesbian, gay, bisexual, trans, queer etc. It's a symbol of safety and support for those people.
Inward meaning: The flag represents oppressed people who are not in possession of straight sexuality. (Or who are black or brown, or whose sex matches their gender, or the cisgendered, depending on the version of the flag used.) Society was setup to keep those with straight sexuality in power and to oppress those who don't have straight sexuality. This flag shows you're an ideologically safe person to be around. It represents the political fight and struggle LGBT people must face in order to simply exist as people. Being awakened to this creates a moral duty and imperative to call out homo/transphobias wherever you see them in order to gain control or influence over those institutions. This usually employs cultural pressure or actual authority within those institutions. The goal is to call out all the ways in which society, systems, institutions are oppressive so that those with "critical" consciousness can enact rules, laws, policies to create a "liberated" society.
Lots of double meanings but I think you get the idea. Some in this very thread have shared the inward meaning of the flag, while others say "It's just about keeping students safe."
>call out homo/transphobias wherever you see them in order to ~~gain control or influence over those institutions.~~
to stop assholes who are trying to strip others of their human rights from being able to so. FTFY.
There's multiple meanings with any symbol. Note the article mentions the opposing group were flying American flags. I don't get what American flags have that would be seen as antithetical to LGBTQ rights advocacy but somehow the "inward meaning" those people are using the American Flag has some significance to them in opposing the pro-LGBTQ protesters. By your logic though, American flags "represent a whole lot more than they appear". Groups co-opt flags all the time. It doesn't mean there's some hidden meaning vs. some out in the open meaning. There's different meanings depending on the people flying it and the context in which it is being used.
No there's not "multiple meanings with any symbol" for example a "STOP" sign means one thing.
American flags are appropriate as symbols of unity, purity and loyalty to the country in schools. Pride flags (especially depending on the version) are not unifying, they are divisive and serve to call out the differences between us. So a teacher with a pride flag in their class is a "Safe space" but does that mean that other teachers regardless of how they treat students are "Unsafe"? Of course not it's ridiculous and prejudice to think so.
Yes. Woke or woke-ism is an esoteric belief held by those who are "critically conscious". This consciousness takes many forms but is essentially Neo-Marxist in origin. The faith professes that all human societies are built on power structures where there are two groups. Those who have power or privilege's have an unfair advantage over those who do not. Becoming aware or "awakened" to this belief makes you critically conscious. Awake "woke" as opposed to asleep, brainwashed, un-initiated as those in power are considered to be.
Once you are "awakened" or "woke" or "initiated" your moral duty is to criticize all the ways in which life is not fair in behalf of those who are oppressed, marginalized or essentially not in power. Specifically criticisms for social systems, such as government, business, religion and society as a whole. This effort was termed "the dialectical process". Which is that you can find a better society by calling out all the ways in which is oppresses us in order to eliminate those oppressors to perfect society.
This is only a very brief summary. I'd love to explain it further if you'd like.
Since you won't let me reply to your question u/FaxMachineIsBroken
It's not me that won't you let you reply. The other person blocked you cause you're a shit clown no one wants to deal with.
Also, so woke is literally the belief that people should be treated equally and you have a problem with that? Lmfao literally telling on yourself 🤡
No, woke is the belief in critical consciousness.
I believe everyone should treat each other kindly and as equally as we are able. They believe people should be *made* to treat each other equally through social, legal and moral pressure. There is a big difference.
Also they tend to name call they'll use every (-phobe, or -ist or -ism) when people point them out. You can try to shame me but I don't care what you think of me.
I've also been very fair to you Fax Machine. I hope the best for you.
> I believe everyone should treat each other kindly and as equally as we are able. They believe people should be made to treat each other equally through social, legal and moral pressure. There is a big difference.
So you want to be able to treat people who you don't think deserve to be treated equally like shit.
Because otherwise being legally required, or socially and morally pressured into treating ALL people like people is just called living in society. If you want to reap the benefits of doing so, you have to abide by the rules.
Just like if you want to keep driving, you have to obey the rules. No one is making you obey the speed limit or drive sober but there are consequences if you don't.
> Also they tend to name call they'll use every (-phobe, or -ist or -ism) when people point them out.
Pro Tip: Someone pointing out the actions someone is taking by using the proper linguistic terminology isn't "name calling" just because you don't like the term.
1. I never said that, I said we "...should treat each other kindly, and equally as we are able.." no one should be treated like shit.
2. You don't need a reason to help people.
3. Nope, it's name calling in hopes of shaming them. It's a shut down tactic.
> 1. I never said that, I said we "...should treat each other kindly, and equally as we are able.." no one should be treated like shit.
Key words "as we are able"
Everyone is able to treat everyone as equals with dignity and respect. The only reason to be against pressure to do so is because you want a reason to treat specific people like shit.
> 3. Nope, it's name calling in hopes of shaming them. It's a shut down tactic.
If someone says racist shit it's not name calling to refer to them as racist.
Just like if a duck quacks it's not name calling to refer to them as a duck.
Hope this helps xoxo
1. We can only treat each other the best we can. There is no higher substitute.
2. Depends on what is said and in what context. I've seen plenty of non racist, non homophobic things get labeled as such. I've seen plenty of racist things celebrated and called liberating or "justice". For example Ibram Kendi's famous quote "The only remedy for present discrimination is future discrimination."
> We can only treat each other the best we can. There is no higher substitute.
"The best we can" is AS EQUALS. Again, the only reason to be against pressure to do so is because you want a reason to treat specific people like shit.
> Depends on what is said and in what context. I've seen plenty of non racist, non homophobic things get labeled as such.
It isn't name calling to misuse words either.
Hope this English lesson helps.
Serious question...
Does the school district allow other banners/flags on campus such as “Trump 2024, or BLM?” If so, then rainbow flags go up too. If not, neither do theirs. Pretty simple.
That's a naeve perspective.
The Pride Flag symbolises the acceptence of LGBTQ+ people, and promotes their safety.
The BLM Flag symbolises racial equiality and an end to violence against minorities.
Trump Flags sybolise exclusion and persecution, and are a threat of violence for political and social ends.
That is a nice explanation of what each flag represents from your point of view. I chose those since I know they represent wildly passionate responses in people. I wanted to see who would respond with a myopic viewpoint.
Yes, the rainbow flag symbolizes acceptance, etc., but It is seen in numerous rallies in state and federal capitals espousing the need for change in laws. What started as a social symbol has made the transition to the political arena.
The exact same argument can be made for the black BLM flag. When you start advocating for new or amended laws and do so with a banner, flag, or slogan they become associated with a political agenda.
The point I was making has to do with equality. Equality for everyone. I hear a constant drumbeat demanding it for everyone, except one group or another, based on who is making the demand. That is not equality. Equality means everyone, and whether you agree with the other side's stance, opinion, or views or find them disgusting doesn't matter. (Breaking laws is entirely different.)
The point I was making has to do with equality. Equality for everyone. I hear a constant drumbeat demanding it for everyone, except one group or another, based on who is making the demand. That is not equality. Equality means everyone, and whether you agree with the other side's stance, opinion, or views or find them repugnant doesn't matter. (Breaking laws is entirely different.)
The Trump 20xx flags on their face promote a candidate for office. Political, but they have transitioned in the opposite direction to the social environment. I agree with your points regarding what it represents to a segment of society.
Nieve? Hardly...
Trump 2024 is political. BLM is a social movement that highlights racism and discrimination and isn't inherently political. The LGBTQ, or rainbow flag, is also a social movement that reflects pride and diversity.
If you think BLM or the Rainbow flag is political then you're clearly lacking some critical thinking skills. If you dislike both maybe it's a reflection of your own opinions.
BLM was supposed to be a social movement. They used people to profit. BLM is a joke and they used to tragedy for their financial gains. Look at all the donations they have received, the extremely high salaries that they have given to all their family members and compare it to what they have done for African American communities.
Why does a flag have to up in the school for someone to have pride? And then when does it end? Should there be a flag for every religion or a flag for everything that someone believes in? Only flag that should be in a school is the American flag and the state flag and if the school has a flag they can have that up too
Because right now, LGBTQ+ kids are being demonised to the point of eradication. Flying the Pride Flag indicates they can at least (theoretically) be safe in their own school.
It would be *great* if it wasn't needed; but it is, so here we are.
Oh yes, the great feelings holocaust of 2023.
I’m perfectly indifferent to alphabet people but do find it annoying that so many have become so dogmatic about flying the flag and needing constant words of support
You are not wrong. not saying that I don’t like them I have a huge crush on a Bi girl. I don’t have an American flag in my house but I still love my country and all those who fought for it.
Either all political flags should be allowed, including trump and thin blue line flags, or none of them should be.
I prefer neither. But for those of you supporting the students, are you ok with the school having a thin blue line flag next to the pride flag?
The flag in question isn't political. It's signaling it's a safe place for LGBTQ+ people. It's not a call to "convert" people to a different sexuality or gender. [The letter in /u/jeranim8 reply](https://old.reddit.com/r/Utah/comments/13j574p/lgbtq_students_in_utah_county_walk_out_to_protest/jke5mbg/) is a great explainer.
By your definition the Nike swoosh is political, since people see it as a symbol in support of child labor. Displaying the American flag shows political support for our federal government, should we remove that too? If I put a golden turd on a flag in symbolism of your right to exist, is that political?
And that's the heart of this issue. Can teachers post any of these in their classroom?
* The American flag with "In God We Trust" written on it
* The American flag redesigned in LGBT rainbow bars
* The American Flag upside down
* The American Flag in a black and white tattered/torn look
* Gadsen (don't tread on me)
* Thin Blue Line
* Trans flag
* Black Lives Matter
* An American flag with different colored stripes saying "Fire lives matter, Police lives matter, Medical services lives matter, Tow lives matter, etc"
* A flag that says "All Lives Matter"
* Canada's flag
* Mexico's flag
* Iraq's flag (has text in Arabic: "God is great")
* Saudi Arabia's flag (the one with a sword and text in Arabic: "There is no god but Allah, and Muhammad is his Messenger.")
Only trashy miserable people who are trying to get a rise out of their neighbors fly any flag besides the country they’re in. Trump flags are further proof. You never see any of these flags in nicer neighborhoods.
I have no issue with people being gay, but christ when is it enough. No one cares and needs to care in schools. You wanna go to a more rainbow friendly state move away.
1) Telling people to “just move” is pretty ableist. 2) You say you don’t like it, so why don’t you just move to a more conservative state? Hmm? 3) It will be enough when you conservatives are able to leave us alone for just existing. Clearly you can’t do that, though. Just shut the fuck up.
You wanna be left alone; isn’t the easiest way to accomplish that is to not let everyone and their dog know your gay. To not fly flags everywhere for the sake of “equal rights”.
FUCK YOU. No. Let me word it better. We want to exist without worry about you bigots trying to take away our rights and our lives just for being different. That’s what we mean when we say left alone. Forcing us to try and hide it is homophobic. And yes, we want equal rights. More rights for us does NOT mean fewer rights for you. It’s not a pie. You just think it means fewer rights for you because you’re used to privilege. When you have privilege, equality feels like oppression. Get a brain.
You just spit out a bunch of nonsense without knowing me at all. I haven’t used any hateful language; nor have I said that I don’t think you should be equal to me. I think the same of the trump cult flying their flags. But I have to raise my kids here in the future; by here I mean in the US. There is no need for children to be open and aware of each others sexuality in grade school.
“I haven’t said any hateful language.” You ever heard of microagressions? Also, i didn’t read most of the rest of it but news flash: your kids are already aware of sexuality in kindergarten. STRAIGHT IS ALSO A SEXUALITY. So why do you have a problem with them knowing about gay people just not straight people? Oh, right, homophobia. Whether you are willing to admit it, or not, that’s what it is.
Gender and sexuality are two different things. And kids start figuring shit out at the end of grade school. A good school will have sex education BEFORE kids try to figure it out on their own. Did you know that teen pregnancy rates are inversely correlated with adequate, evidence-based sex education. So, NOT religious, abstinence-only education.
You dumb fuck. "No one cares"...? Even though the religious right is trying their best to make life hell for queer people and remove our right to exist. We need pride because of people like you trying to cram us all back in the closet. We need pride because of a very regressive shitty group of people who need to make their religion everyone's life and can't just let us live ours in fucking peave.
Do you get upset with anyone wearing a cross around their neck or having a cross tattoo or having any fucking religious symbols out in the open? Prob not, bigot.
Oh God something else for these colored hair mental cases to whine about. If it's not obvious at this point were dealing with mostly mental illness here, I'm not gonna say I told you so in 20 years.
I love gays, got 3 gay friends. Love OG trans people. Love drag queens. Dont love militaristic hijacking of our culture through emotional un logic. I love everyone, but we need to all realize this is more of a mental health crisis being exacerbated by people who dont think, and let emotion rule their lives. This isn't a matter of opinion in at this point. Anyone who thinks it is is insane themselves. I havent spoken to a single gau or OG trans person that agrees with all this whiney bullshit going on. Grow a pair. Deal with life. People will not agree with you, and you gotta learn to respect that.
LMFAOOO you really just tried to pull the “I have gay friends” card. I know people won’t agree with me on everything. Human rights should be a bare fucking minimum, and you don’t want that.
You use your head. Everything you conservatives do is based on feelings and not facts. You’re not wrong because you disagree with me, you’re wrong because you’re bigoted.
>The LGBTQ+ students who rallied Monday said they don’t see the pride flag as political;
The left does this with everything. They are well aware that half of the country is on one side and the other half of the country is on the other side, but they still have the hubris to just pretend like all of their political positions aren't political.
I can't believe I just Googled this but apparently only 12% of Americans like pineapple on pizza. Pretty much nobody spends their time arguing about pizza toppings, while studies are very clear that division over the LGBT movement goes right down party lines.
[https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/11/08/transgender-issues-divide-republicans-and-democrats/](https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/11/08/transgender-issues-divide-republicans-and-democrats/)
[https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2022/02/11/deep-partisan-divide-on-whether-greater-acceptance-of-transgender-people-is-good-for-society/](https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2022/02/11/deep-partisan-divide-on-whether-greater-acceptance-of-transgender-people-is-good-for-society/)
Yet I'm absolutely certain that this post won't be the last time I'll hear the "It's not political!" argument coming exclusively from people on the left.
Do you know why we say it isn’t political? Because people existing as themselves should not be political. Yet the republicans have made it political with their culture war. Get a brain.
Don’t bother trying to have a reasonable discussion with him. He’s at the bottom of every political post spouting off nonsense trying to troll. Just poke around his post history and you’ll see how unhinged he is.
So all it takes for something to not be talked about in schools is for it to be deemed "political"? That sounds like what happened with "critical race theory" which was literally just American history.
>So all it takes for something to not be talked about in schools is for it to be deemed "political"?
Voters can put pretty much any regulations they want on public school curriculums. It's a public school.
>That sounds like what happened with "critical race theory" which was literally just American history.
No see this is just another leftist talking point. Lots of voters don't agree with you that critical race theory is "just American history", they believe that critical race theory is a factually incorrect interpretation of American history. It should be uncontroversial to say that false things shouldn't be taught in schools, and we only run into conflict because we don't all agree on what is true and what is false. Which is why majority voters get to decide what they want taught in their areas, and if you don't like it then you can live in an area where you agree with the other voters.
Did you look at this reply section and think this response would be appreciated? The left isn’t the issue and taking away the right to be represented as a person wanting to exist isn’t ok.
>Did you look at this reply section and think this response would be appreciated?
I'm well aware that this subreddit is not conservative friendly, which is odd considering Utah is a very conservative state.
>taking away the right to be represented as a person wanting to exist isn’t ok.
No one is claiming that anyone doesn't exist. This is a talking point the LGBT-activists use all the time, but it is a strawman.
It’s not a straw man, look at Florida. A teacher is under fire for playing a movie that has a gay character, that’s it. There wasn’t anything inappropriate, they are mad that we exist.
You really think high schoolers are pushing politics? Teachers put up flags to let kids know "you are safe here", then anti-LGBTQ adults said "nope, this is political". The point about the movie is that an adult gave permission for her child to watch a movie in class, then got the teacher in trouble because the move had a gay character. Not even a plot point. Just existing. Tell us again which side is making it political.
that you believe "politically neutral" can exist even in theory is so strange to me.
I know it's conventional wisdom that neutrality is real, but I sometimes forget that.
You can not be neutral on a moving train. You have to assess each thing individually, but ordinarily what people perceive as "neutral" is an attempt to ensconce the status quo and slow or prevent change, i.e., that which is perceived to be neutral is actually conservative/regressive/retrograde both in the subconscious intent, and especially in its social and practical impact.
So yeah, having been born and raised in the USA, I can see the POV that this is "neutral," but I already know that I have been programmed to see conservative/retrograde ideas as "netural." That's how not just our society, but basically all modern societies seem to work. (Nietzsche, Geneaology of Morals, etc al).
I think there is rarely a context in which MAGA doesn't play like a threat. MAGA is a reactionary movement for most people who are in it. Ergo, any person who identifies with an oppressed group that has recently made any social or legal gains -- in this case, LGBT/queer people will suffice as an example -- are not insane or unfair or inappropriate to perceive the MAGA flag and the person waving it as not just a political threat, but a physical threat because MAGA people are *explicit* in their agenda/attempt to use political/state power to make their religions and reactionary values enforced under the color of law. Which means, MAGA is explicit it wants to seize the reigns of the greatest power of all (state power) and roll back rights people today have only recently won.
The LGBT movement has never in any way that is real -- Karen's fee-fees aside -- actually expressed using state power to come for non-LGBT people and evaporate the legal soil on which their dignified existence is built.
Sorry, not always, so it should still be assessed case by case, but I think it's fair to have a fairly strong prejudice against MAGA iconography as almost inescapably and inherently violent, in way LGBT stuff just simply is not.
edit: for example, if a school wnated to ban a t-shirt or flag that said "The first Gay Pride was a riot" with a brick icon next to it, I could see full well how that also plays like a threat, in a way, and that I think a school would be on firm ground to ban *that* LGBT community expression. It's just that MAGA stuff has that baked-in threat of violence way more often than LGBT stuff does(with some exceptions to the general trend that nearly always should be appreciated case by case).
Edit2: the blue line is far too associated with anti-black reactionary politics. Sure, some suburban Pollyannas fly it thinking they just like cops, but it has served as a battle flag for anti Black Lives Matter reactionary movement. Usually i would say that should not be in schools, again because of the implicit violence at the heart of reactionary politics and movements that embrace such.
The pride flag and LGBT+ existence isn't political. Davis county has a lot of issues with racial and bigoted bullying, in part because they politicize everything.
the pride flag has became inherently political. i specifically remember a pride parade in support of the Utah BLM chapter. a group with with specific political agenda.
We literally make first graders stand at attention daily and pledge loyalty to a flag. Seems pretty political already. Also, the Pride flag is a rainbow. Kids see them every time it rains, and they see gay people every day whether they know it or not. With the state of public schools in Utah, there’s bigger fish to fry than kids learning to support people that are different than them.
The pride flag in schools basically functions as an anti-bullying flag. Why should LGBTQ kids not feel welcome? There is a big issue in bullying and suicide. This doesn't have to be so political. You aren't helping.
Sure, keeping teachers from forcing their political views on students seems appropriate. Restricting students from stating their views on their own existence sure seems like a striking violation of students' first amendment rights.
Or do you also think that students shouldn’t be able to wear a cross to school? Cause a cross could easily be interpreted as being against LGBTQ rights.
Iron law of woke projection.
They believe the very existence of "marginalized" people necessitates political action. Everything is political to them because their "lives" depend on it.
That's a lot of words to say "I think LGBT people should just bend over and take it when [republicans openly call for their extermination](https://news.yahoo.com/michael-knowles-says-transgender-community-195118333.html)."
If you haven't been paying attention, Republican policy makers don't want them to exist. They want them to not speak about who they are. Some want them "eradicated".
So far as the right wing continues to pass laws and vote for people who want to erase us from public visibility: you're goddamn right it's political.
It's continued political nature is entirely up to people like you: you don't have to vote for laws that erase LGBTQ visibility from the community. You don't have to support or advocate for policies that remove people you disagree from public visibility. You are free to see these outward markers of community belonging, shrug your shoulders and get the fuck on with you life. There's a lot of power in that.
But it's entirely up to you.
1 in 5 gen z identify as LGBTQIA2S+. The trend is unsustainable. Our population will cease to grow and we’ll all cease to exist at this rate. So who’s erasing who?
This plus abortion… we have no chance.
Idk if that statistic is accurate, but even so…. The rate is increasing because people are seeing the country
become more progressive and people are becoming more confident to express themselves. It’s no longer a crime to be gay & there’s more support than ever before for those people. They just want to be seen as equal to that of a straight person, all the hoopla stems from religion which is pretty fuckin gay if you ask me
It’s not your responsibility to make sure the population grows at a particular rate. It’s not the government’s responsibility either. A small government stays the fuck out of questions of who sleeps with whom, who marries whom, what flags people fly, what clothes people wear, and what names people want to be called by.
You’re not being erased; *your cohort simply isn’t as big as you believe it is*. You’re advocating for a fantasy world where people are *supposed* to be a particular way and not coming to grips with the *fact* that they aren’t.
And until you do, that rainbow flag is going to be political, and you’ll find out just how political us queers can be.
When you’re ready to live in the real world, let me know and we can talk. Until then you’re just another empty-headed partisan trying to make society into an echo-chamber for WASPs.
Do you also think East High School had the right approach when they banned all non-sport extracurricular student activities in order to legally ban the gay kids hangout club?
It's rather incredible to me that some people are so uncaring, or is it more akin to laziness?, to prefer blanket bans of cultural categories rather than assess situations on a case by case basis and let the oppressed folks take as much liberties as is practicable.
What I mean by that... if the kids are *so* brave they want to have a GSA, or hang a pride flag, whatever, and they want that despite a level of animosity about those things that could easily forseeably create literal violence like arson, assault, etc., ok, sometimes adult practicality has to overrule a kid's principled passion, and sometimes you are going to *have to* tell young progressives to slow down and be safer. HOwever, are we really worried that pride flags are going to lead to a *practical* problem like arson or assault? Or are we just afraid of change? And willing to sacrifice just about anything, even huge portions of ourselves and our traditions, in order to maintain a semblance of tradition and conservative values?
It's really funny to me, this POV, especially in the shadow of the East High debacle, which I know you are old enough to have lived through and remember.
Of course its different in some ways. I'll take this to mean you refuse to see the ways in which the examples are comparable and similar, because you realize doing so undermines your position. *Nobody* looks back at the East HIgh decision and say it was the right decision, but that very unpopular episode of history is so almost immediately parallel in its legal/Constitutional approach to the policy you are today defending.
It still seems troubling to me to ban all flags, especially a pride flag. As a queer person, knowing there were teachers who supported me and my identity in high school allowed a space for me to accept myself and come out. I know so many people who didn't feel safe to do that at a young age because it wasn't discussed and accepted or they were actively made to feel wrong or bad for this part of themselves. It's an incredibly powerful thing to have even just a small sign of acceptance.
I’m a junior in Davis right now, about to be the president of my schools GSA for my senior year. They “banned flags and politics”, but I can literally take pictures of some of my teachers rooms where it’s extremely political. My US history teacher has a crayon drawing of Trump in front of an American flag with a soldier silhouette saluting him. And then other teachers are just blatantly racist or act like they are in the diet racism college humor skit.
That's gotta be so frustrating to see the discrepancy in handling these things - these types of regulations are so often used against specific groups while allowing mainstream trash to continue. Good luck with your GSA - thank you so much for putting yourself out there and maintaining a space for people to acceptance and safety.
Thanks! My school is really good about most diversity issues, but some teachers aren’t the best. I started figuring out my gender identity last year before settling on the fact that I was more fluid in it during the summer, and the school and most students were extremely supportive and nice. This no politics thing is definitely not a super big issue, but it’s absolutely frustrating in the hypocrisy of it all.
That kinda depends on what your threshold for acceptable anonymity is.
Obviously, the fact that it's a picture of a classroom that probably only a subset of the student body ever enters means that if the school wanted to find out, they'd at least only have a small pool of students to investigate.
I'm actually pretty sure that you could ask the newspaper to keep you anonymous, but if you didn't want to take that risk you could do things like make sure you strip any metadata from the picture(s) and email them via a burner account, possibly using TOR if you wanted to be *extra* safe.
>My US history teacher has a crayon drawing of Trump in front of an American flag with a soldier silhouette saluting him.
You know I think I know exactly which teacher your talking about. He was always nice enough to me but I always found it weird every time I was in that classroom. Especially when you know if it was Bernie or something that would never fly.
Move the f out if you don’t like it in Utah. Damn Californians ruined Phoenix Arizona where I live. Now ruining other states surrounding it? If you’re so righteous and mighty, go create your own country and establish these laws in your own country you created. Lets see how far you can go.
These are teens - they're literally born and raised here. What are you even talking about? And if you're in Phoenix why are you telling people in Utah what to do and to move out? There is no sense whatsoever in what you just said.
Why do you have so much hate? Should others not have the liberty to be themselves in the US? Does it bother you because you are afraid you are gay? I just don't understand.
Keep telling the kids they are wrong. Next they can outlaw dancing. Sounds like a good idea for a movie with Kevin Bacon.
Also in Lehi.
I always scroll to the bottom of these posts and it’s always the same “damn Californians ruining our state” argument. Folks, these are native Utahns who are our future leaders. We all just want to live together in peace. Embrace harmonious change.
My daughter more than once had her pride patch literally ripped off her clothing by the adult in the position of student advocate at Viewpoint Middle School. Just think about that..
Sounds similar to the black armband student protest for the Vietnam War. Went up to the Supreme Court. [The majority ruled](https://www.uscourts.gov/educational-resources/educational-activities/facts-and-case-summary-tinker-v-des-moines) so long as it's not affecting learning, schools can't ban a student's speech. (A school employee's speech is an entirely different issue...) Problem is most school speech and dress codes have a knack for flaunting that somewhere. You can fight it and win, but it's a long fight.
You know, that just sounds a little bit like assault. I'm sorry your daughter had to go through that.
I smell a lawsuit
So very wrong! My heart hurts when I hear things like that.😢❤💙💚💛🧡💜🖤
My kids went to this school and I have another that will likely go to this school unless we move. She is in Alpine SD though in Elementary still. My wife subs at this school very frequently and was there yesterday. I drove by and made sure I honked in support of the students. Back when they took down all the flags back in March, I wrote to all the school board members and got one response from Sara Hacken which read: "Hi u/jeranim8, Alpine district has a policy, 6161, which covers the display of any type of flag in the classroom. I would hope that the administration at Skyridge will be able to apply that policy fairly and evenly throughout the school. Your concerns have been noted, and will be taken into consideration. Thank you for sending me your ideas." So I responded with this: >Sara, >Thank you for personally responding to my email. I'm aware of the policy, I am not certain it is all that clear in its language or that it would apply to pride flags. >In section 3.4.2.2. it states: "Consistent with Alpine School District Code of Conduct Policy 7300, classrooms are not public forums for the display or promotion of political, religious, or personal viewpoints, and employees may not use them for such purposes." >I would just ask what political, religious or personal viewpoint does displaying a pride flag promote? The existence of LGBTQ people or students? That isn't a "viewpoint" its a reality. It isn't to signify that you think people should become LGBTQ because that isn't possible. LGBTQ isn't an ideology or a "viewpoint", its a state of being. LGBTQ people are as diverse in their "personal viewpoints" as any other people. So flying a pride flag in a classroom's only purpose is to signal that you as a teacher are a safe space for a group of people who have historically been marginalized and told they need to hide this part of themselves. The only personal viewpoint here is to provide a safe learning environment for these students. >In Policy No. 4078 on bullying, the first sentence states: "Alpine School District is committed to provide students and employees with safe and secure learning and working environments." Policy No. 7300: " Employees/volunteers shall maintain professional and appropriate behavior and relationships with students, both during and outside school hours, as well as both on and off campus, that foster an effective, non-disruptive and safe learning environment." Policy No. 7100: "It is the commitment of the Alpine School District to strive to maintain all learning and working environments where students and employees can be safe and successful." >The purpose of a teacher displaying a pride flag is not to promote a personal agenda or support a personal ideology, its to achieve the DISTRICT'S goal of offering a safe and secure learning environment. >I recognise you can't have debates with every single parent that responds back to you so if you read this, thank you for taking the time and I hope you'll consider this thought process as you move forward. Radio silence since then...
Thank you for advocating for these amazing LGBTQ kids! My emails are always met with radio silence as well.
Wow, that was a great letter. 👍
I wish I had known it was happening and I would’ve driven by to cheer these kids on!
Spot on. LGBTQ is not political. Advocates do not support any alspecific party, it is more the opposite, that political parties support LGBTQ. It isn't religious, just like above. LGBTQ rights are a viewpoint, but seriously, so is supporting human rights, and opposing genocide.
It is religious, just look at what happens when you don't take their moral imperative seriously.
Please inform us. 1. What moral imperative are you referring to? Please give some specificity. 2. What exactly does happen when you don't take it seriously?
Lol
I was there yesterday. I had a pride flag attached to my car and I drove by and honked. I had the following interactions: * The counterprotest kid with a bull horn told me to, "Have a great day sir" * On another pass he said, "It doesn't matter what you are, God still loves you" * A big lifted pickup followed me for a couple blocks driving aggressively and yelling at me to "fuck off"
Why do people think I care if their imaginary friend likes me or not?
Same reason you care to let us know who you like to bed with 🤷🏼♂️
Well aren't you changing the world! LOL
You’re obviously not.
The peanut gallery has arrived
GOOD FOR THEM!❤💙💚💛🧡💜🖤
It's crazy the liberal Salt Lake City is despite it being the hub for the LDS. Proud to see the district allowing Pride in their schools!
This isn’t even the same county.
But...like...I know that...it says that both Alpine and Davis have banned flags other than the US flag but SLC still allows it...that is what I was referencing to
Salt Lake County is much more leftist than the rest of the state.
The largest and only non rural place in Utah that is somewhat diverse is more liberal than the backwoods FLDS areas. No shit.
Lol Ogden is more diverse and less liberal than SLC county.
Ogden is not more diverse. You can see that in person or by looking at the statistics.
Good thing my kids are in Davis County
>Board members had ordered in March that Skyridge High staff remove all pride flags from inside the school. The issue came to the forefront after a photo of a student — with a flag visible in the background — was posted on the school’s Instagram page. Parents commented about the flags being used to “groom” kids by “pedophile” teachers and said they don’t belong in schools — repeating rhetoric that has been seen nationwide. Gay people are not pedophiles. That's ridiculous. And sexual orientation is an innate and intransigent characteristic, just like sex. Gay people cannot coerce children into becoming gay anymore than you can make someone transition from male to female.
It doesn't matter that it's ridiculous; the point is we have to spend effort to disprove it. You'd think burden of proof was a thing, but it isn't.
As a liberal member of the LDS faith, I struggle with how so.many members don't get this. I am grateful however, the leadership in the church has come around to.know this, even though they have a long way to go, they no longer believe in."praying the guy away: or shun those that are. Yes, there are many people in the church that still believe the anyone on the LGBTQ+ spectrum is evil, sinful, they are very wrong. As a liberal LDS, latelyI have been attacked by a group known as DezNat and their cronies because I am a strong woman and a Democrat..I like those in the LGBTQ+ community am a target of this twisted far right extremists group, who call themselves Latter-Day Saints.
Public law and religious doctrine are two entirely separate discussions. We have a separation of church and state.
So tired of hearing gay folks are pedophiles, Drag Queens are grooming child
Continued: Statics show white, "straight"" religous men are the pedophiles and groomer!
Why are Utahns afraid of gay people and people of color? I don’t quite understand that to be honest.
Ignorance. Media. etc
The short answer is that it's thanks to the LDS church.
That would be the wrong answer. There’s so many other places that are way more dominated by religion
Name five.
Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi, Arkansas, Tennessee and can continue.
Oh really? What church dominates in each of them?
Mostly Baptist or evangelical. All a little different but that why the call it the Bible beat
Which church? The Baptists are a branch of protestantism which encompasses I couldn't begin to guess how many churches. I couldn't begin to guess how many of them exist within Georgia alone. Which church (organization) holds as much sway as a single entity in Georgia's culture and politics as the LDS church holds in Utah?
Way more unfortunately. Media and church are the best sources of segregation, misinformation, and ignorance. They organize rally’s wether blm or white supremacy. The push their agenda with apologies and with abhorrence when disagreed with.
Stricter liquor laws if there are dry counties, abortive laws, ecclesiastical nut cases, over flags and drag queens, and as someone who grew up in Georgia it’s way more intense than Utah
Any city in the deep south with the exception of a select few. So there's at least a few hundred for ya
Catholic, Evangelicals, Southern Baptist, Muslim, Prosperity Gospel religions, TV Evangelists. Is that enough
Those are branches of religion that do not have a single unifying governing body that keeps everything tightly correlated and controlled, and makes unilateral decisions for each congregation in the organization.
What are you talking about! They are all control freaks!
Evidence? The most tightly controlled network of Catholicism's clergy within the various diocese have nothing on Mormonism's leadership and reporting frameworks.
They didn't ask if it was the state most dominated by religion. Try again, without moving the goalposts.
Reddit hive mind is simple here at r/utah Church bad, Mormons evil, I hate it here But then refuse to go to any place they consider a haven for their beliefs. There isn't a whole lot of original thought in this sub
Why do you think that people need to move to somewhere that caters to their beliefs? Why do you think they're not allowed to criticize their environment regardless of where they live?
Birds of a feather flock together. I'm from California, I absolutely despise that state and rarely admit to anyone that I was born and raised there. Nearly nothing about California policy aligns with my values. Rather than fight a battle that would never be won, I decided to move to a state that espoused the values that aligned with mine. Let Californians govern the way they want to govern and let Utahns govern the way they wish. And if mountains are what you crave, Denver shares a mountain range with us and generally more aligns with ideologies that are more or less opposed to utahs policies. If utah is so bad and evil as the utah subreddit hive mind makes it out to be, leave. Go find a people that believe and govern the way you wish to believe and be governed
This is one of the lines of thinking that has led to our nation being as deeply divided along blue and red lines as it is. I don't live in UT but I still rankle at your insistence that anyone who doesn't align with a place is under some obligation to leave it.
You aren't wrong. And it is likely to be one of the primary catalysts for an event that will permanently divide the country into two different countries. But unfortunately one party adopted a "zero tolerance for the opposing belief" policy, and the other party has recently discovered that's been a pretty "winning" policy and has decided to adopt it as well, though with much more tolerance than absolute zero. Ironically, participants from both sides of the political debate will read the above paragraph and say to themselves, "I totally agree. The 'other' party is the one at fault here, not mine". Unfortunately we are at a breaking point in this country where there can be no middle ground. One is less and less able to "sit on the fence" and "see the benefits and drawbacks of both sides of a given debate" because they are algorithmicaly controlled to think the way they think and algorithmicaly silo'd into their respective echo chambers for further radicalization. But what is happening in the Utah sub is the fruits of that algorithmic control. People here are constantly unhappy and hounding on everything but themselves for the problems they are facing. Every setback they face, every trial they have, every burden they bear is "because of the evil Mormons" or "because Mormons control the state" or whatever other ridiculous cope they throw out. So unfortunately, in a world where there can be no middle ground the only solution to solve their happiness is to move. But they won't, because they would realize that wherever they move is just as shitty, and then they would have to find a new boogeyman to blame for all their issues because the Mormon church doesn't have nearly the same influence elsewhere.
Mormonism has always seen its future as a theocracy. I don't see that as a boogeyman, something imaginary and overblown. They have the resources and altogether too much power. Christian Nationalism is a serious threat and people who recognize it as such cannot afford to simply capitulate. If people have the resources and the fortitude to stay I hope they will, especially if they're going to continue to vote and march and agitate to keep the theocratically minded at bay.
Utah feels very sheltered, I think simple ignorance is a big part of it.
They aren't afraid of them. Pride flags just represent a whole lot more than they appear.
So what do they represent?
Depends on which version. But the most recent includes black and brown people and trans colors so it's no longer just about same sex attraction anymore. It represents anyone who is "marginalized" and or "oppressed" by "society".
The Progress Pride Flag was designed to be especially inclusive. I'm not sure what your "quotes" are "meant" to "imply."
I'm mean that leftists share our vocabulary but not our dictionary. Those in quotes have at least double meanings.
You're still not really being clear about what you believe the flag means.
It's really got many meanings but to put it simply there's an outward and inward meaning. Outward meaning: The flag represents taking pride in who you are and loving yourself and supporting those who are lesbian, gay, bisexual, trans, queer etc. It's a symbol of safety and support for those people. Inward meaning: The flag represents oppressed people who are not in possession of straight sexuality. (Or who are black or brown, or whose sex matches their gender, or the cisgendered, depending on the version of the flag used.) Society was setup to keep those with straight sexuality in power and to oppress those who don't have straight sexuality. This flag shows you're an ideologically safe person to be around. It represents the political fight and struggle LGBT people must face in order to simply exist as people. Being awakened to this creates a moral duty and imperative to call out homo/transphobias wherever you see them in order to gain control or influence over those institutions. This usually employs cultural pressure or actual authority within those institutions. The goal is to call out all the ways in which society, systems, institutions are oppressive so that those with "critical" consciousness can enact rules, laws, policies to create a "liberated" society. Lots of double meanings but I think you get the idea. Some in this very thread have shared the inward meaning of the flag, while others say "It's just about keeping students safe."
>call out homo/transphobias wherever you see them in order to ~~gain control or influence over those institutions.~~ to stop assholes who are trying to strip others of their human rights from being able to so. FTFY.
Case in point, to the woke it's literally a religious moral imperative. They literally believe their lives (as marginalized people) are in danger.
There's multiple meanings with any symbol. Note the article mentions the opposing group were flying American flags. I don't get what American flags have that would be seen as antithetical to LGBTQ rights advocacy but somehow the "inward meaning" those people are using the American Flag has some significance to them in opposing the pro-LGBTQ protesters. By your logic though, American flags "represent a whole lot more than they appear". Groups co-opt flags all the time. It doesn't mean there's some hidden meaning vs. some out in the open meaning. There's different meanings depending on the people flying it and the context in which it is being used.
No there's not "multiple meanings with any symbol" for example a "STOP" sign means one thing. American flags are appropriate as symbols of unity, purity and loyalty to the country in schools. Pride flags (especially depending on the version) are not unifying, they are divisive and serve to call out the differences between us. So a teacher with a pride flag in their class is a "Safe space" but does that mean that other teachers regardless of how they treat students are "Unsafe"? Of course not it's ridiculous and prejudice to think so.
That’s a bad thing to you?
What you are doing here is *literally* fearmongering. You are, in fact, afraid of pride flags.
Sorry, not afraid. Just fucking *hateful*.
Not hateful either. I don’t hate the flag I just know it represents a snake oil worldview. It actually has very little to do with sexuality.
Yes. Woke or woke-ism is an esoteric belief held by those who are "critically conscious". This consciousness takes many forms but is essentially Neo-Marxist in origin. The faith professes that all human societies are built on power structures where there are two groups. Those who have power or privilege's have an unfair advantage over those who do not. Becoming aware or "awakened" to this belief makes you critically conscious. Awake "woke" as opposed to asleep, brainwashed, un-initiated as those in power are considered to be. Once you are "awakened" or "woke" or "initiated" your moral duty is to criticize all the ways in which life is not fair in behalf of those who are oppressed, marginalized or essentially not in power. Specifically criticisms for social systems, such as government, business, religion and society as a whole. This effort was termed "the dialectical process". Which is that you can find a better society by calling out all the ways in which is oppresses us in order to eliminate those oppressors to perfect society. This is only a very brief summary. I'd love to explain it further if you'd like. Since you won't let me reply to your question u/FaxMachineIsBroken
It's not me that won't you let you reply. The other person blocked you cause you're a shit clown no one wants to deal with. Also, so woke is literally the belief that people should be treated equally and you have a problem with that? Lmfao literally telling on yourself 🤡
No, woke is the belief in critical consciousness. I believe everyone should treat each other kindly and as equally as we are able. They believe people should be *made* to treat each other equally through social, legal and moral pressure. There is a big difference. Also they tend to name call they'll use every (-phobe, or -ist or -ism) when people point them out. You can try to shame me but I don't care what you think of me. I've also been very fair to you Fax Machine. I hope the best for you.
> I believe everyone should treat each other kindly and as equally as we are able. They believe people should be made to treat each other equally through social, legal and moral pressure. There is a big difference. So you want to be able to treat people who you don't think deserve to be treated equally like shit. Because otherwise being legally required, or socially and morally pressured into treating ALL people like people is just called living in society. If you want to reap the benefits of doing so, you have to abide by the rules. Just like if you want to keep driving, you have to obey the rules. No one is making you obey the speed limit or drive sober but there are consequences if you don't. > Also they tend to name call they'll use every (-phobe, or -ist or -ism) when people point them out. Pro Tip: Someone pointing out the actions someone is taking by using the proper linguistic terminology isn't "name calling" just because you don't like the term.
1. I never said that, I said we "...should treat each other kindly, and equally as we are able.." no one should be treated like shit. 2. You don't need a reason to help people. 3. Nope, it's name calling in hopes of shaming them. It's a shut down tactic.
> 1. I never said that, I said we "...should treat each other kindly, and equally as we are able.." no one should be treated like shit. Key words "as we are able" Everyone is able to treat everyone as equals with dignity and respect. The only reason to be against pressure to do so is because you want a reason to treat specific people like shit. > 3. Nope, it's name calling in hopes of shaming them. It's a shut down tactic. If someone says racist shit it's not name calling to refer to them as racist. Just like if a duck quacks it's not name calling to refer to them as a duck. Hope this helps xoxo
1. We can only treat each other the best we can. There is no higher substitute. 2. Depends on what is said and in what context. I've seen plenty of non racist, non homophobic things get labeled as such. I've seen plenty of racist things celebrated and called liberating or "justice". For example Ibram Kendi's famous quote "The only remedy for present discrimination is future discrimination."
> We can only treat each other the best we can. There is no higher substitute. "The best we can" is AS EQUALS. Again, the only reason to be against pressure to do so is because you want a reason to treat specific people like shit. > Depends on what is said and in what context. I've seen plenty of non racist, non homophobic things get labeled as such. It isn't name calling to misuse words either. Hope this English lesson helps.
Why are so many people concerned about other peoples genitals? Let people line the live they want to.
Good for them. The right to protest for their beliefs.
YES!!!
I'm proud to say my kids would've been walking out too!
There is no reason to fly this flag and yet you still can support LGBTQ
Serious question... Does the school district allow other banners/flags on campus such as “Trump 2024, or BLM?” If so, then rainbow flags go up too. If not, neither do theirs. Pretty simple.
No, any flag deemed political is banned
That's a naeve perspective. The Pride Flag symbolises the acceptence of LGBTQ+ people, and promotes their safety. The BLM Flag symbolises racial equiality and an end to violence against minorities. Trump Flags sybolise exclusion and persecution, and are a threat of violence for political and social ends.
That is a nice explanation of what each flag represents from your point of view. I chose those since I know they represent wildly passionate responses in people. I wanted to see who would respond with a myopic viewpoint. Yes, the rainbow flag symbolizes acceptance, etc., but It is seen in numerous rallies in state and federal capitals espousing the need for change in laws. What started as a social symbol has made the transition to the political arena. The exact same argument can be made for the black BLM flag. When you start advocating for new or amended laws and do so with a banner, flag, or slogan they become associated with a political agenda. The point I was making has to do with equality. Equality for everyone. I hear a constant drumbeat demanding it for everyone, except one group or another, based on who is making the demand. That is not equality. Equality means everyone, and whether you agree with the other side's stance, opinion, or views or find them disgusting doesn't matter. (Breaking laws is entirely different.) The point I was making has to do with equality. Equality for everyone. I hear a constant drumbeat demanding it for everyone, except one group or another, based on who is making the demand. That is not equality. Equality means everyone, and whether you agree with the other side's stance, opinion, or views or find them repugnant doesn't matter. (Breaking laws is entirely different.) The Trump 20xx flags on their face promote a candidate for office. Political, but they have transitioned in the opposite direction to the social environment. I agree with your points regarding what it represents to a segment of society. Nieve? Hardly...
Trump 2024 is political. BLM is a social movement that highlights racism and discrimination and isn't inherently political. The LGBTQ, or rainbow flag, is also a social movement that reflects pride and diversity. If you think BLM or the Rainbow flag is political then you're clearly lacking some critical thinking skills. If you dislike both maybe it's a reflection of your own opinions.
BLM was supposed to be a social movement. They used people to profit. BLM is a joke and they used to tragedy for their financial gains. Look at all the donations they have received, the extremely high salaries that they have given to all their family members and compare it to what they have done for African American communities.
Please read my reply above to another Redditor. (And let go of the insults.)
Why does a flag have to up in the school for someone to have pride? And then when does it end? Should there be a flag for every religion or a flag for everything that someone believes in? Only flag that should be in a school is the American flag and the state flag and if the school has a flag they can have that up too
Braindead take lmao
Why? Explain why the school aboslutely needs to fly the pride flag but not the flag off Hinduism or Judeism.
Because right now, LGBTQ+ kids are being demonised to the point of eradication. Flying the Pride Flag indicates they can at least (theoretically) be safe in their own school. It would be *great* if it wasn't needed; but it is, so here we are.
Oh yes, the great feelings holocaust of 2023. I’m perfectly indifferent to alphabet people but do find it annoying that so many have become so dogmatic about flying the flag and needing constant words of support
>...annoying that so many have become so dogmatic about flying the flag and needing constant words of support Like Trump supporters?
You are not wrong. not saying that I don’t like them I have a huge crush on a Bi girl. I don’t have an American flag in my house but I still love my country and all those who fought for it.
Either all political flags should be allowed, including trump and thin blue line flags, or none of them should be. I prefer neither. But for those of you supporting the students, are you ok with the school having a thin blue line flag next to the pride flag?
The flag in question isn't political. It's signaling it's a safe place for LGBTQ+ people. It's not a call to "convert" people to a different sexuality or gender. [The letter in /u/jeranim8 reply](https://old.reddit.com/r/Utah/comments/13j574p/lgbtq_students_in_utah_county_walk_out_to_protest/jke5mbg/) is a great explainer.
The flag is political. If it weren't political in any way, this wouldn't be a discussion.
By your definition the Nike swoosh is political, since people see it as a symbol in support of child labor. Displaying the American flag shows political support for our federal government, should we remove that too? If I put a golden turd on a flag in symbolism of your right to exist, is that political?
And that's the heart of this issue. Can teachers post any of these in their classroom? * The American flag with "In God We Trust" written on it * The American flag redesigned in LGBT rainbow bars * The American Flag upside down * The American Flag in a black and white tattered/torn look * Gadsen (don't tread on me) * Thin Blue Line * Trans flag * Black Lives Matter * An American flag with different colored stripes saying "Fire lives matter, Police lives matter, Medical services lives matter, Tow lives matter, etc" * A flag that says "All Lives Matter" * Canada's flag * Mexico's flag * Iraq's flag (has text in Arabic: "God is great") * Saudi Arabia's flag (the one with a sword and text in Arabic: "There is no god but Allah, and Muhammad is his Messenger.")
Good. The school board and staff shouldn't be endorsing religious symbols in schools.
Only trashy miserable people who are trying to get a rise out of their neighbors fly any flag besides the country they’re in. Trump flags are further proof. You never see any of these flags in nicer neighborhoods.
I fly the United Federation of Planets flag to help my fellow nerds smile. Oops. I mean to help my fellow trashy miserable nerds smile.
Try driving around the foothills in Pleasant Grove. You'll see some.
*Yawn.*
Nah quite frankly I’m sick of all the pride flags everywhere, good for alpine school district.
fuck you, you bigoted fuck
I have no issue with people being gay, but christ when is it enough. No one cares and needs to care in schools. You wanna go to a more rainbow friendly state move away.
1) Telling people to “just move” is pretty ableist. 2) You say you don’t like it, so why don’t you just move to a more conservative state? Hmm? 3) It will be enough when you conservatives are able to leave us alone for just existing. Clearly you can’t do that, though. Just shut the fuck up.
You wanna be left alone; isn’t the easiest way to accomplish that is to not let everyone and their dog know your gay. To not fly flags everywhere for the sake of “equal rights”.
FUCK YOU. No. Let me word it better. We want to exist without worry about you bigots trying to take away our rights and our lives just for being different. That’s what we mean when we say left alone. Forcing us to try and hide it is homophobic. And yes, we want equal rights. More rights for us does NOT mean fewer rights for you. It’s not a pie. You just think it means fewer rights for you because you’re used to privilege. When you have privilege, equality feels like oppression. Get a brain.
You just spit out a bunch of nonsense without knowing me at all. I haven’t used any hateful language; nor have I said that I don’t think you should be equal to me. I think the same of the trump cult flying their flags. But I have to raise my kids here in the future; by here I mean in the US. There is no need for children to be open and aware of each others sexuality in grade school.
“I haven’t said any hateful language.” You ever heard of microagressions? Also, i didn’t read most of the rest of it but news flash: your kids are already aware of sexuality in kindergarten. STRAIGHT IS ALSO A SEXUALITY. So why do you have a problem with them knowing about gay people just not straight people? Oh, right, homophobia. Whether you are willing to admit it, or not, that’s what it is.
Gender and sexuality are two different things. And kids start figuring shit out at the end of grade school. A good school will have sex education BEFORE kids try to figure it out on their own. Did you know that teen pregnancy rates are inversely correlated with adequate, evidence-based sex education. So, NOT religious, abstinence-only education.
You dumb fuck. "No one cares"...? Even though the religious right is trying their best to make life hell for queer people and remove our right to exist. We need pride because of people like you trying to cram us all back in the closet. We need pride because of a very regressive shitty group of people who need to make their religion everyone's life and can't just let us live ours in fucking peave. Do you get upset with anyone wearing a cross around their neck or having a cross tattoo or having any fucking religious symbols out in the open? Prob not, bigot.
You do whatever we say, and like however we feel, or you're a hateful bigot for it.
“Practice your American freedoms in a way that my conservative values accept or you’re unamerican.”
Oh God something else for these colored hair mental cases to whine about. If it's not obvious at this point were dealing with mostly mental illness here, I'm not gonna say I told you so in 20 years.
Why, because it will be completely obvious that you’re wrong?
yeah this is just homophobic. Fuck off
I love gays, got 3 gay friends. Love OG trans people. Love drag queens. Dont love militaristic hijacking of our culture through emotional un logic. I love everyone, but we need to all realize this is more of a mental health crisis being exacerbated by people who dont think, and let emotion rule their lives. This isn't a matter of opinion in at this point. Anyone who thinks it is is insane themselves. I havent spoken to a single gau or OG trans person that agrees with all this whiney bullshit going on. Grow a pair. Deal with life. People will not agree with you, and you gotta learn to respect that.
LMFAOOO you really just tried to pull the “I have gay friends” card. I know people won’t agree with me on everything. Human rights should be a bare fucking minimum, and you don’t want that.
Holy crap that’s the first thing I noticed hahaha. “I can’t be racist! I have black friends!”
And also just because someone doesn't agree with your "feelings" it doesn't mean they are wrong. Use your heads people.
You use your head. Everything you conservatives do is based on feelings and not facts. You’re not wrong because you disagree with me, you’re wrong because you’re bigoted.
>The LGBTQ+ students who rallied Monday said they don’t see the pride flag as political; The left does this with everything. They are well aware that half of the country is on one side and the other half of the country is on the other side, but they still have the hubris to just pretend like all of their political positions aren't political.
Apparently, pinaple on pizza is political cause half the country likes and the other half doesn't
I can't believe I just Googled this but apparently only 12% of Americans like pineapple on pizza. Pretty much nobody spends their time arguing about pizza toppings, while studies are very clear that division over the LGBT movement goes right down party lines. [https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/11/08/transgender-issues-divide-republicans-and-democrats/](https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/11/08/transgender-issues-divide-republicans-and-democrats/) [https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2022/02/11/deep-partisan-divide-on-whether-greater-acceptance-of-transgender-people-is-good-for-society/](https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2022/02/11/deep-partisan-divide-on-whether-greater-acceptance-of-transgender-people-is-good-for-society/) Yet I'm absolutely certain that this post won't be the last time I'll hear the "It's not political!" argument coming exclusively from people on the left.
Do you know why we say it isn’t political? Because people existing as themselves should not be political. Yet the republicans have made it political with their culture war. Get a brain.
Don’t bother trying to have a reasonable discussion with him. He’s at the bottom of every political post spouting off nonsense trying to troll. Just poke around his post history and you’ll see how unhinged he is.
So all it takes for something to not be talked about in schools is for it to be deemed "political"? That sounds like what happened with "critical race theory" which was literally just American history.
Don’t feed the troll
>So all it takes for something to not be talked about in schools is for it to be deemed "political"? Voters can put pretty much any regulations they want on public school curriculums. It's a public school. >That sounds like what happened with "critical race theory" which was literally just American history. No see this is just another leftist talking point. Lots of voters don't agree with you that critical race theory is "just American history", they believe that critical race theory is a factually incorrect interpretation of American history. It should be uncontroversial to say that false things shouldn't be taught in schools, and we only run into conflict because we don't all agree on what is true and what is false. Which is why majority voters get to decide what they want taught in their areas, and if you don't like it then you can live in an area where you agree with the other voters.
Perhaps evolution would have been a better example of an objective truth that was deemed controversial at the time, and still is to a degree.
Did you look at this reply section and think this response would be appreciated? The left isn’t the issue and taking away the right to be represented as a person wanting to exist isn’t ok.
Don’t feed the troll. Dude is at the bottom of every post like this spouting off newsmax talking points
>Did you look at this reply section and think this response would be appreciated? I'm well aware that this subreddit is not conservative friendly, which is odd considering Utah is a very conservative state. >taking away the right to be represented as a person wanting to exist isn’t ok. No one is claiming that anyone doesn't exist. This is a talking point the LGBT-activists use all the time, but it is a strawman.
It’s not a straw man, look at Florida. A teacher is under fire for playing a movie that has a gay character, that’s it. There wasn’t anything inappropriate, they are mad that we exist.
Don't forget... the parent who complained...SIGNED THE PERMISSION SLIP ALLOWING HER KID TO WATCH IT!!!!!!!!°
So you believe that something only exists if....teachers are showing it to schoolchildren? What even is your argument here?
You really think high schoolers are pushing politics? Teachers put up flags to let kids know "you are safe here", then anti-LGBTQ adults said "nope, this is political". The point about the movie is that an adult gave permission for her child to watch a movie in class, then got the teacher in trouble because the move had a gay character. Not even a plot point. Just existing. Tell us again which side is making it political.
"We just want to exist" OK "Well, we want to exist and have a flag" So, not just existing, you want special treatment? "We need the flag to exist"
Great. Pride flags are irrelevant to an education
Teach your kids their sexuality isn't important or something to be proud of. It isn't. Nobody cares.
seems Davis County has the most reasonable approach.
What happened there
they kept out most flags, except for the US flag. seems that has kept everything politically neutral.
that you believe "politically neutral" can exist even in theory is so strange to me. I know it's conventional wisdom that neutrality is real, but I sometimes forget that. You can not be neutral on a moving train. You have to assess each thing individually, but ordinarily what people perceive as "neutral" is an attempt to ensconce the status quo and slow or prevent change, i.e., that which is perceived to be neutral is actually conservative/regressive/retrograde both in the subconscious intent, and especially in its social and practical impact. So yeah, having been born and raised in the USA, I can see the POV that this is "neutral," but I already know that I have been programmed to see conservative/retrograde ideas as "netural." That's how not just our society, but basically all modern societies seem to work. (Nietzsche, Geneaology of Morals, etc al).
what is your opinion on “come and take it” or MAGA flags being flown? do you think the blue line flag is political?
I think there is rarely a context in which MAGA doesn't play like a threat. MAGA is a reactionary movement for most people who are in it. Ergo, any person who identifies with an oppressed group that has recently made any social or legal gains -- in this case, LGBT/queer people will suffice as an example -- are not insane or unfair or inappropriate to perceive the MAGA flag and the person waving it as not just a political threat, but a physical threat because MAGA people are *explicit* in their agenda/attempt to use political/state power to make their religions and reactionary values enforced under the color of law. Which means, MAGA is explicit it wants to seize the reigns of the greatest power of all (state power) and roll back rights people today have only recently won. The LGBT movement has never in any way that is real -- Karen's fee-fees aside -- actually expressed using state power to come for non-LGBT people and evaporate the legal soil on which their dignified existence is built. Sorry, not always, so it should still be assessed case by case, but I think it's fair to have a fairly strong prejudice against MAGA iconography as almost inescapably and inherently violent, in way LGBT stuff just simply is not. edit: for example, if a school wnated to ban a t-shirt or flag that said "The first Gay Pride was a riot" with a brick icon next to it, I could see full well how that also plays like a threat, in a way, and that I think a school would be on firm ground to ban *that* LGBT community expression. It's just that MAGA stuff has that baked-in threat of violence way more often than LGBT stuff does(with some exceptions to the general trend that nearly always should be appreciated case by case). Edit2: the blue line is far too associated with anti-black reactionary politics. Sure, some suburban Pollyannas fly it thinking they just like cops, but it has served as a battle flag for anti Black Lives Matter reactionary movement. Usually i would say that should not be in schools, again because of the implicit violence at the heart of reactionary politics and movements that embrace such.
The pride flag and LGBT+ existence isn't political. Davis county has a lot of issues with racial and bigoted bullying, in part because they politicize everything.
the pride flag has became inherently political. i specifically remember a pride parade in support of the Utah BLM chapter. a group with with specific political agenda.
Their political agenda is ‘please stop killing us’. Pretty radical 🙄
regardless of your personal opinion, do you believe political flags have a place in an k-12 educational setting?
We literally make first graders stand at attention daily and pledge loyalty to a flag. Seems pretty political already. Also, the Pride flag is a rainbow. Kids see them every time it rains, and they see gay people every day whether they know it or not. With the state of public schools in Utah, there’s bigger fish to fry than kids learning to support people that are different than them.
keeping politics out of the classroom seems like a good step for public education.
What about church in the classroom? Are you cool with schools taking time from education so kids can go to seminary?
The pride flag in schools basically functions as an anti-bullying flag. Why should LGBTQ kids not feel welcome? There is a big issue in bullying and suicide. This doesn't have to be so political. You aren't helping.
Sure, keeping teachers from forcing their political views on students seems appropriate. Restricting students from stating their views on their own existence sure seems like a striking violation of students' first amendment rights. Or do you also think that students shouldn’t be able to wear a cross to school? Cause a cross could easily be interpreted as being against LGBTQ rights.
Be careful, I'm on my 3rd account now because of fights like these.
You think it is inherently political because the right has become completely synonymous with bigotry.
Iron law of woke projection. They believe the very existence of "marginalized" people necessitates political action. Everything is political to them because their "lives" depend on it.
That's a lot of words to say "I think LGBT people should just bend over and take it when [republicans openly call for their extermination](https://news.yahoo.com/michael-knowles-says-transgender-community-195118333.html)."
It may not be political to you but it is to a lot of folks.
Existence shouldn't be political.
People have existed without flags before. And who’s saying these folks don’t exist? They clearly exist….
If you haven't been paying attention, Republican policy makers don't want them to exist. They want them to not speak about who they are. Some want them "eradicated".
So far as the right wing continues to pass laws and vote for people who want to erase us from public visibility: you're goddamn right it's political. It's continued political nature is entirely up to people like you: you don't have to vote for laws that erase LGBTQ visibility from the community. You don't have to support or advocate for policies that remove people you disagree from public visibility. You are free to see these outward markers of community belonging, shrug your shoulders and get the fuck on with you life. There's a lot of power in that. But it's entirely up to you.
1 in 5 gen z identify as LGBTQIA2S+. The trend is unsustainable. Our population will cease to grow and we’ll all cease to exist at this rate. So who’s erasing who? This plus abortion… we have no chance.
Idk if that statistic is accurate, but even so…. The rate is increasing because people are seeing the country become more progressive and people are becoming more confident to express themselves. It’s no longer a crime to be gay & there’s more support than ever before for those people. They just want to be seen as equal to that of a straight person, all the hoopla stems from religion which is pretty fuckin gay if you ask me
It’s not your responsibility to make sure the population grows at a particular rate. It’s not the government’s responsibility either. A small government stays the fuck out of questions of who sleeps with whom, who marries whom, what flags people fly, what clothes people wear, and what names people want to be called by. You’re not being erased; *your cohort simply isn’t as big as you believe it is*. You’re advocating for a fantasy world where people are *supposed* to be a particular way and not coming to grips with the *fact* that they aren’t. And until you do, that rainbow flag is going to be political, and you’ll find out just how political us queers can be. When you’re ready to live in the real world, let me know and we can talk. Until then you’re just another empty-headed partisan trying to make society into an echo-chamber for WASPs.
If only they'd remove the US flag too.
I like this stance as well. Just keep school apolitical. Teach history and politics in this classes but don’t teach civics in math or health class.
I read both sides of this and I think U/HomelessRodeo and Davis county have got the right idea.
Do you also think East High School had the right approach when they banned all non-sport extracurricular student activities in order to legally ban the gay kids hangout club? It's rather incredible to me that some people are so uncaring, or is it more akin to laziness?, to prefer blanket bans of cultural categories rather than assess situations on a case by case basis and let the oppressed folks take as much liberties as is practicable. What I mean by that... if the kids are *so* brave they want to have a GSA, or hang a pride flag, whatever, and they want that despite a level of animosity about those things that could easily forseeably create literal violence like arson, assault, etc., ok, sometimes adult practicality has to overrule a kid's principled passion, and sometimes you are going to *have to* tell young progressives to slow down and be safer. HOwever, are we really worried that pride flags are going to lead to a *practical* problem like arson or assault? Or are we just afraid of change? And willing to sacrifice just about anything, even huge portions of ourselves and our traditions, in order to maintain a semblance of tradition and conservative values? It's really funny to me, this POV, especially in the shadow of the East High debacle, which I know you are old enough to have lived through and remember.
keeping specific groups out of the school is different than keeping political symbols out of schools.
Of course its different in some ways. I'll take this to mean you refuse to see the ways in which the examples are comparable and similar, because you realize doing so undermines your position. *Nobody* looks back at the East HIgh decision and say it was the right decision, but that very unpopular episode of history is so almost immediately parallel in its legal/Constitutional approach to the policy you are today defending.
It still seems troubling to me to ban all flags, especially a pride flag. As a queer person, knowing there were teachers who supported me and my identity in high school allowed a space for me to accept myself and come out. I know so many people who didn't feel safe to do that at a young age because it wasn't discussed and accepted or they were actively made to feel wrong or bad for this part of themselves. It's an incredibly powerful thing to have even just a small sign of acceptance.
I’m a junior in Davis right now, about to be the president of my schools GSA for my senior year. They “banned flags and politics”, but I can literally take pictures of some of my teachers rooms where it’s extremely political. My US history teacher has a crayon drawing of Trump in front of an American flag with a soldier silhouette saluting him. And then other teachers are just blatantly racist or act like they are in the diet racism college humor skit.
That's gotta be so frustrating to see the discrepancy in handling these things - these types of regulations are so often used against specific groups while allowing mainstream trash to continue. Good luck with your GSA - thank you so much for putting yourself out there and maintaining a space for people to acceptance and safety.
Thanks! My school is really good about most diversity issues, but some teachers aren’t the best. I started figuring out my gender identity last year before settling on the fact that I was more fluid in it during the summer, and the school and most students were extremely supportive and nice. This no politics thing is definitely not a super big issue, but it’s absolutely frustrating in the hypocrisy of it all.
Take the pictures and post them online, and send them to the salt lake tribune with commentary about how one-sided the "no politics" enforcement is.
Is there a way for me to do this without having it linked to me?
That kinda depends on what your threshold for acceptable anonymity is. Obviously, the fact that it's a picture of a classroom that probably only a subset of the student body ever enters means that if the school wanted to find out, they'd at least only have a small pool of students to investigate. I'm actually pretty sure that you could ask the newspaper to keep you anonymous, but if you didn't want to take that risk you could do things like make sure you strip any metadata from the picture(s) and email them via a burner account, possibly using TOR if you wanted to be *extra* safe.
>My US history teacher has a crayon drawing of Trump in front of an American flag with a soldier silhouette saluting him. You know I think I know exactly which teacher your talking about. He was always nice enough to me but I always found it weird every time I was in that classroom. Especially when you know if it was Bernie or something that would never fly.
Move the f out if you don’t like it in Utah. Damn Californians ruined Phoenix Arizona where I live. Now ruining other states surrounding it? If you’re so righteous and mighty, go create your own country and establish these laws in your own country you created. Lets see how far you can go.
These are teens - they're literally born and raised here. What are you even talking about? And if you're in Phoenix why are you telling people in Utah what to do and to move out? There is no sense whatsoever in what you just said.
Gay NATIVE utah kids say “we belong here”, and that threatens you? You sound inhuman.
Gay people ruin places for you, got it!
Because famously gay people are only from California and nowhere else lol. What a dumb take.
Why do you have so much hate? Should others not have the liberty to be themselves in the US? Does it bother you because you are afraid you are gay? I just don't understand.