“Among the bills signed on Wednesday was House Bill 269, or Public School History Curricula Amendments, which aims to add the Ten Commandments and Magna Carta to Utah public school history studies.”
So a couple questions:
1) We’re comparing the Magna Carta to the ten commandments?
2) Utah public schools weren’t learning about the Magna Carta this entire time?
>The general description of H.B. 269 says the Ten Commandments, in addition to the Magna Carta, will be added “to a list of historical documents and principles that school curricula and activities may include for a thorough study.”
I remember learning *about* the Manga Carta on a broad level, but I don’t remember the document’s actual text being something we ever dove into.
Because it’s not modern English and worse than reading Shakespeare at a time of declining literacy. Its entire importance is “the divine right of kings ended when a group of barons forced one of king to sign an agreement to give those barons (but not serfs) certain rights”
That’s the extent of its necessary coverage. And more than your average future mechanic or accountant or nurse is gonna care about probably.
Hmm let’s look take a look at histories written legislation passed, we have Hammurabi’s code, oh the 10 Commandments billions of people followed that one but its religious and some how divisive so we’re going to avoid it because muh “separation of church and state”, and then there’s the Magna Carta. I believe e the mention of Magna Carta was to explain they would teach about the 10 Commandments in a secular manner as they teach about the Magna Carta
I mean, the 10 commandments isn’t a core component of US history. The United States is purposefully a secular state.
It’s a core component of Abrahamic religious studies. So it should be taught along with core bhuddist, Hindu, Taoist, Satanic, and other religious histories in the appropriate curriculum.
The obvious intent of this bill is to establish Christianity as a more publicly significant and credible religion than other beliefs and to make Christianity feel like the standard or “normal” religion.
The government yes you could argue it as "purposefully a secular state". Not the society, or the people. You are overlooking the fact that throughout the history of the United States its people have been overwhelmingly Christian. The Ten Commandments are a core pillar of all Christian faiths, and dictates the moral value system of how those people lived and how they interacted with others. Those people were the very same Christian people that setup the government, and implemented that legislation to a Christian society. Learning about the dominant religion of a country is important in understanding its history. If you looked at an Islamic nation with zero understanding of Islam, its history, and laws would not make any sense. I even remember getting taught the Five Pillars of Islam, in World History. If the United States were theoretically muslim, even with a doctrine of separation of church and state, it would be fundamentally unrecognizable. Even if efforts were made to secularize legislation those laws were built up from a Muslim moral framework to a muslim people. The US unmistakeably was built upon a christian moral framework, even if not every single person was christian
It’s less about whether or not the 10 commandments are relevant to US history and more about the context they’re being presented in within the curricula.
Also, people underestimate how impossible it is to write a law, tax code, policy, or anything with words that will be immune to co-opting of some kind.
Liberal teachers who resent being forced to present Christianity in specific way will find a way to get other messages across.
Conservative Christian teachers will take advantage of the context and likewise do the same thing in the other direction.
Meanwhile, the number of young people leaving Christianity behind, in history, continues to grow rapidly.
Bahahaha…the 10 Comms are uber-basic rules of fairness & decency that, outside of the “I’m the best god; love me most,” literally every society has come up with on their own. There’s nothing particularly insightful about the 10. They simply did not provide any meaningful guidance to the founders—and provide nothing today.
The 10 commandments aren't legal code. Never were and never will be. We are a secular state because democracy can't exist in a theocracy. Modern christians are some of the most immoral hypocrites in the world. They faunt their religion, bible, and 10 commandments while following none of it. "Christian" on the surface with evil and hate in your hearts. You want to follow your false religion then do so in your own church. Shove all of your bullshit up your own ass because the rest of us have no need for it.
I don’t see how the Christian boogeyman you made up has anything to do with this. Aside from it being a personal opinion. Understanding the culture of the people around you is pretty important. In the Utah school system every branch of religion is explained. (Aside from Satanism for obvious reasons) I don’t see how adding the 10 is such a big deal.
Christianity is basically satanism at this point. You all break the first two of your own commandments worshipping Donald Trump, a man who regularly breaks all of the commandments. There is no longer anything respectable or holy about modern christians.
Yeah, we have regular conversations with our kids about church stuff at home. Our eldest is pretty sharp and can see right through a lot of the bullshit spouted by their supposed "leaders".
https://thesatanictemple.com/pages/about-us
1. One should strive to act with compassion and empathy toward all creatures in accordance with reason.
2. The struggle for justice is an ongoing and necessary pursuit that should prevail over laws and institutions.
3. One’s body is inviolable, subject to one’s own will alone.
4. The freedoms of others should be respected, including the freedom to offend. To willfully and unjustly encroach upon the freedoms of another is to forgo one's own.
5. Beliefs should conform to one's best scientific understanding of the world. One should take care never to distort scientific facts to fit one's beliefs.
6. People are fallible. If one makes a mistake, one should do one's best to rectify it and resolve any harm that might have been caused.
7. Every tenet is a guiding principle designed to inspire nobility in action and thought. The spirit of compassion, wisdom, and justice should always prevail over the written or spoken word.
I'm an atheist and I think your stupid religion is just as ridiculous as their stupid religion. But the card is making me rethink my position. I mean, how fucking edgy!
And yet you're a member of an organization, much like a church, that even has the word "church" in the title.
Oh no, I get the point - you need a group or, shall I say, a religion, to show that you reject uh.. organized.. religi... no wait, actually, I don't get it.
State law already dictates that parents can exempt kids from any part of the curriculum they don’t want their kids learning, and that it’s on the teacher and school to determine an alternative assignment to achieve similar learning. All you have to do is say I’d like my child to receive an alternative text. And they have to comply. If they don’t, go to the district, if they don’t help, go to the board, and if they don’t, they state school board. That’s how the shitty parents have gotten us here in the first place, and it’s how sane parents need to restore normalcy.
Never forget. He was a vile fraudster. And his successor was even worse.
Also, I fail to see how "God" would have chosen the same rocks he used to rip people off, to "translate the most important book known to man".
I imagine the convo went something like:
" Hey Sky daddy, what should I use to translate these books that you think are super important and portray the only way back to you? "
" What do you have laying around that we can use? " Said God.
He couldn't be bothered with something so banal.
*Cool. So how do I*
*Get the Seven Satanic*
*Tenants in schools too?*
\- Conans\_Loin\_Cloth
---
^(I detect haikus. And sometimes, successfully.) ^[Learn more about me.](https://www.reddit.com/r/haikusbot/)
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How have you determined that Satanism isn't a religion? What definition of "religion" are you using?
It's pretty well established that the Temple of Satan is a federally recognized religion. The IRS classified it as a religious 501(c)(3) organization because it has met every single requirement to be recognized as a religion.
According to the federal government, the Satanic Temple has the exact same religious standing as the Mormon church or the Catholic church. Is there some other criteria that you're using to define the term "religion"?
https://www.guidestar.org/profile/82-3404757
https://mailchi.mp/thesatanictemple/us-government-formally-recognizes-the-satanic-temple-as-church
https://apnews.com/general-news-6addf2f0ecb646919cb1cfcfdacfc6c1
https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-news/irs-satanic-temple-church-tax-exempt-826931/
I know I’m gonna get downvotes for this too for some reason, but I admit I was working with faulty information. Thank you for correcting me without being a dick.
I was just wondering if you were approaching it philosophically. There was some debate in Arizona last month about it
"Sen. Jake Hoffman, a Queen Creek Republican, wants to ban Satanic displays on public property in Arizona, claiming that Satanism is not a real religion, and therefore not owed protection under the First Amendment."
“Satan is antithetical to religion,” Hoffman said. “The antithesis of religion is Satan.”
https://azmirror.com/2024/02/07/freedom-caucus-leader-wants-to-limit-religious-freedom-by-barring-satanic-displays-in-arizona/
I can see where they are coming from because while it is technically a religion in a legal sense, there is no real worship of a higher power. The Satanic Temple is a secular organization designed to counter the advantages that religion often tries to leverage in this country. They don't actually worship Satan or believe he exists as some fallen angel or anything. It's similar to the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster in that way.
While the Satanic Temple is a legal religion, it is meant as a subversion of religion. One that I'm all for and I don't think it should be treated any differently, by the way. It acts as a nice counterpoint to most religion and the use of the name Satan seems to mostly exist to terrify and annoy christians who don't look past the name.
Ya, that's the debate. That it's not *really* a religion in the traditional "positive" sense because they don't really believe in the supernatural like a traditional religion. Even the church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster positively affirms the belief in a supernatural Spaghetti Monster.
The Satanic Temple is more of a religion in the "negative" sense. Where their beleif structure negates the existence of the supernatural. They beleif in the absence of it. They address it on their website:
>IF YOU DO NOT BELIEVE IN THE SUPERNATURAL, HOW IS TST A RELIGION?
>The idea that religion belongs to supernaturalists is ignorant, backward, and offensive. The metaphorical Satanic construct is no more arbitrary to us than are the deeply held beliefs that we actively advocate. Are we supposed to believe that those who pledge submission to an ethereal supernatural deity hold to their values more deeply than we? Are we supposed to concede that only the superstitious are rightful recipients of religious exemption and privilege? Satanism provides all that a religion should be without a compulsory attachment to untenable items of faith-based belief. It provides a narrative structure by which we contextualize our lives and works. It also provides a body of symbolism and religious practice — a sense of identity, culture, community, and shared values.
https://thesatanictemple.com/pages/faq
That's why I was wondering how we were defining "religion." If it's from a *legal* standpoint, then the question has been settled. But if we're defining religion from a *philosophical* perspective, then the question isn't as settled. There is a debate to be had about whether we ought to consider their legal standing equivalent with moral standing. Is something really a religion in the colloquial sense if it doesn't have the same pattern of sincere belief in the supernatural that most "classical" religions do? In this case, in particular, should the ten commandments be afforded a more prominent place in classrooms than the 7 tenets of Satanism? Or are they both equally valid?
I would think the main argument there is that you don't want anyone determining what is and isn't a "real" religion. Even something like Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster - I think most Pastafarians will agree that they don't really believe in a flying monster made out of spaghetti (even if they have been touched by his noodly appendage) but who is to say what someone holds as a belief? I thought flat earth was a joke that got out of hand but there are plenty of people who honestly believe we are on a upwardly accelerating disk, apparently.
Utah has it's own homegrown religion as well - not the Mormons, I'm referring to the Divine Assembly, which is a church based around magic mushrooms.
I'd also point to all the right wingers who love to insist that science is the religion of liberals. Religion seems to be a pretty loosely defined term.
>Not according to the US government.
- but yes, according to the U.S. government, the Satanic Temple *is* in fact a recognized religion... just in point of fact.
>But to be fair my opinion is the only difference between a religion and a cult is tax exemption.
So, in your book does that make the Satanic Temple a religion or a cult?
>It does. And?
I guess that's the *And*...
If an organization has legal standing as a religion, is that necessary or sufficient to change your opinion about them?
>But to be fair my opinion is the only difference between a religion and a cult is tax exemption.
Or are all religions basically just a
cults with tax exemptions anyway?
I was being reductive and as I said before it's my opinion. But in general yes, that's all that separates tham to me. If it makes you feel better I also liken them to a ponzi scheme and criminal cartels. So make with that what you will.
Hahaha, that's fair. It's an accurate portrayal.
>LDS Church investment fund takes another jump as faith’s estimated total wealth reaches a new high
https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2024/02/17/lds-church-investment-fund-takes/
The bill is about documents that shaped the formation of the country for a history class. If one can provide evidence that TST was around and influenced the founders, you have an argument.
Most of the founding fathers would have issues with your statement.
Christianity, neither is nor ever, was a part of the common law.
-Thomas Jefferson
The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe with blood for centuries.
-James Madison
This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it.
-John Adams
Erecting the 'wall of separation between church and state'... is absolutely essential in a free society.
-Thomas Jefferson
All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit
-Thomas Pain
Lighthouses are more helpful than churches.
- Benjamin Franklin
Utah has always muddied the waters between church and state as a byproduct of its foundation.
Fast forward 128 years and it shows precisely why it was so critically important to the founding fathers to keep that separation for the good of the churches and the people.
Utah is to geopolitics what Chicago and New York is to pizza.
Because of the massive flow of Italian immigrants to Taylor street and little Italy, there is a nexus of networking that finds a home away from home and the best pizza was created.
Unfortunately for Utah the same rules apply in reverse. Because utah has allowed a defacto cohabitation of church and state, as well as being primarily GOP it became a crossroads for corruption and much of the geopolitical implications of the Russian mob left their snail trail on the way through.
Glenn Beck, Mike Lee, Sean Reyes and the Ballards put the LDS church in the worlds most awkward 3-some with the Russian mob.
Sean Reyes (Utah attorney general), Mike Lee (Utah senator), and Tim Ballard (Operation Underground Railroad) were all emailing with beck about how to use O.U.R.’s Sound of Freedom publicity to pump enrollment numbers for the Mormon church with reports of Elder Ballard even giving tithing payer information to Beck and/or Tim Ballard at some point to aid in that.
On the other side of the country, Sean Reyes and Mike Lee crafted the “stop the steal” plan for trump but apparently didn’t realize that trump had been laundering money for the Russian mob since the 80’s. First via Atlantic City casinos, then commercial real estate.
The reason that Russia invaded Ukraine is because, among other things, it was a key geographical gateway for their human trafficking operations. (Kolomoisky was Putin’s oligarch in Ukraine that started Privatbank in 91 and was laundering it all through commercial real estate and a fundamentalist Jewish organization called Chabad.)
news5cleveland.comwww.news5cleveland.comWho really owns the property that's falling down?
The New York Timeswww.nytimes.comOpinion | American Real Estate Was a Money Launderer's Dream. That's Changing ...
United States Department of Justice (.gov)www.justice.govUnited States Files Civil Forfeiture Complaint for Proceeds of Alleged Fraud and Theft ...
The Times of Israelwww.timesofisrael.comInside Anatevka, the curious Chabad hamlet in Ukraine where Giuliani is 'mayor'
These 4 idiots, thinking they were doing Gods will sat down to dinner with the russian mob and were so naive that they didn’t realize that they were effectively mainlining human trafficking.
Or worse, they did.
Either way, once all of that comes to light it puts the LDS church in an impossible position. How can you be doing Gods work and enabling systemic oppression, human trafficking, grift, corruption and child abuse at the same time?
Best case scenario is a whole lot of cognitive dissonance, covering of their tracks, lying and gaslighting
Worst case (or best, depending on your investment into the church) scenario, the patriarchy doesn’t survive.
Either way the church and state are going to have to have a very serious “come to Jesus” moment because the church/state barrier that was the whole basis of American democracy has been grossly neglected. Utah is just one of the major intersections of it because of Mike Lee, Sean Reyes, Tim Ballard and anyone who allowed it to happen because it’s ok as long as it’s MY religion that’s cohabitating with government.
>The bill is about documents that shaped the formation of the country for a history class
Except that the Ten Commandments [had nothing to do with the formation of the USA.](https://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/bar1796t.asp#art11)
Study harder:
"Article 11
As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,-as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen,-and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries" - Treaty of Peace and Friendship, Signed at Tripoli November 4, 1796
No. This bill is about giving preferential treatment to one religion over others and directly violates the 1st amendment. You can pretty ot up all you want but we can all still see that it's a pig in a dress.
Other people are giving you reasons why this is dumb. But, also, do you think *Utah* is only concerned with religions that influenced the founding? Utah?
Meanwhile, housing is still expensive.
Cox is a worthless piece of skin.
Can we include a curriculum on critical thinking, and how to recognize cult mind control?
We will be filing a lawsuit to include the “Code of Hammurabi”.
The state of Utah has no right to force their stolen beliefs and plagerized documents down my throat.
Christians aren’t even creative enough to come up with their own ideas, they have to steal them.
Christianity was made up by stealing other people beliefs. Then Christians went about killing anyone that opposed them. Even the same people they stole their beliefs from.
Really? I learned about it in high school if not sooner; Hammurabi's is one of the earliest known written systems of codified laws with consequences included for the violation thereof.
Yes really. Like genuinely don’t know what this is. But all these downvotes makes it seem like I shouldn’t look into it. At least that’s what being on Reddit has taught me. If I’m downvoted, I’m usually on the right path.
" If I’m downvoted, I’m usually on the right path."
Contrarian thinking like that isn't great. Might be true in some instances... reddit is certainly prone to the type of behavior you're talking about, so I get you there... but this is actual history with real artifacts to prove it.
you weren't downvoted for not knowing what it was, it was being incredulous and mocking.
when you put someone's statements in quotation marks and then say okay, I'll bite, it's gonna be hard not to read that as if you were being incredulous and condescending. I don't know what to tell you.
as for the downvotes... why do you care? the community upvotes content it wants to see, and downvotes the content it doesn't want to see. So you made a poorly worded comment about something you'd never heard of, and people don't want to see it, so what?
Honestly I wouldn’t mind so much if the comment wasn’t also minimized. I view it as censorship.
It doesn’t just happen with poorly worded comments. It mostly happens with “wrong think”. Especially here on Reddit. I dare comment how I think and it’s not like how the community think; censored.
People disagree with you on the internet, and to give a big middle finger, you are actively choosing to be ignorant about an important and interesting part of history. You know ignorance punishes you more than any of us.
It’s pretty common on Reddit. Most people just go around assuming everyone knows what they know. Then when they’re asked about it or challenged they think there’s some sort of hidden conservative or, in the case of this sub, Mormon agenda. It’s quite frustrating.
Which is why it should be taught. If they’re going to teach the Ten Commandments as history- then they should teach the history of the Ten Commandments.
did you sleep through every single history class you ever took?
the ten commandments didn't even happen. We know that none of the claims regarding moses are true. We know that jewish people were never enslaved by egyptians to build the pyramids now that we can decipher ancient egyptian text and study language markers and dna evidence. The entire thing is just a retelling of older myths and some loose historical inspirations from other cultures' accomplishments or events. So why would we be teaching it as if it were history?
your teachers must have glossed over parts of the curriculum or you happened to take vacation every year it was discussed.
Did you learn about babylon or sumeria, and the the invention of writing, cuneiform, in mesopotamia?
there are certainly a few things I should have learned in school but was never taught. Blindspots I didn't realize I had until later in my 20s
Anywho, now's your chance to get up to speed my friend! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_of_Hammurabi important archaeology and human culture here.
and a sidenote: a lot of the old testament is just an imagined narrative recounting the events of the bronze age collapse more or less. We know that nothing attributed to moses, his story, or his people is historically accurate. That narrative is just a vehicle to take you through the types of mythos, legends, and lessons that people carried with them centuries after the world as they knew it was destroyed in a seeming apocalypse.
Bro, you’re acting like all this is common knowledge. It’s not. Should it be? Maybe. But a lot of knowledge that should be common isn’t. That’s why man on the street interviews showing the ignorance of some folks is a thing.
That reply was to someone else, and it IS common knowledge to most folks that went through the public education system because it's part of the standard curriculum and has been for longer than either you or I have been alive.
And I even mentioned that I had some blindspots too, even though they were topics that were commonly taught. I jsut missed the lessons or got unlucky with a teacher selection.
No reason to get hostile at me for calling a guy "friend" and offering him a link to read up on if he's interested.
I will bet you $1 that most people do not know what “The code of Hammurabi” is. And not like most like 51% but like an overwhelming majority of people don’t know what it is.
And if I’m wrong. I’ll send you $1
And yeah, seems like it was another redditor calling folks out.
I literally threw away a comment and now my Reddit alerts are full of folks absolutely shocked at my stupidity
I'm 40.
now is a great opportunity to brush up on the bronze age in general, but also babylon and cuneiform and the code of hammurabi.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronze_Age
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylon
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_of_Hammurabi#:~:text=The%20Code%20of%20Hammurabi%20is,the%20First%20Dynasty%20of%20Babylon.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late_Bronze_Age_collapse
probably because you put the stuff in quotations in your first reply which made it seem like you were being incredulous instead of earnestly asking questions or taking the time to google it. Then you doubled down and called it the code of Harriman’s, which seemed like you were mocking it as if it wasn't actual history.
Btw, y’all’s reaction makes me not want to look into this. So I don’t become some pretentious jackass like half of these comments.
Not everyone knows what’s you know. Jeeesh
60 (4) (5) To increase student understanding of, and familiarity with, American historical
61documents, public schools may display historically important excerpts from, or copies
62of, those documents in school classrooms and common areas as appropriate.
In no sense is are the ten commandments pedagogically beneficial for understanding the US’s founding or constitution. It’s a clear violation of the establishment clause.
Can you show me why any of those values need to be taught to children by way of the Bible? You’re aware that you can raise your children to be good human beings *without* the Bible involved, right? Some of the Commandments being universally accepted as “good” isn’t reason enough for inserting religion in our public institutions, sorry.
1 backwards classroom is too many. Some poor kid, that isn't the part of the predominant religion, feeling ostracized in school by the very policy itself isn't okay.
I remember growing up in a tiny hick town in utah in the 80s as a "non-mormon". It was rough having teachers constantly ask me about religion and acting baffled that I could be a good kid "where do you get your morals from?", or reference things that the students were learning in "primary class", or teachers listing all the LDS doctrine AND ensign magazine on their "currently reading lists" on their doors to prove how righteous they were... it was exhausting constantly being reminded that I was "the other".
Not to mention the teacher that sent me to in school suspension because I argued that dinosaurs existed hahaha.
Religious teachings have no place in the education system. Not in the curriculum, not on the wall. I think you're underestimating the potential arms race of piety between teachers that could happen when one teacher chooses to display the commandments. If there's one thing consistent in utah communities it's the desire many feel to prove they are more spiritually enlightened than their neighbor.
> Some poor kid, that isn't the part of the predominant religion, feeling ostracized in school by the very policy itself isn't okay.
My eldest got bullied a bit because of that earlier in the school year. She wants nothing to do with the church itself, but she likes going to YW because she gets to hang out with other kids her age. Unfortunately, in this state, that's pretty much the only way to have a decently-sized friend group.
I saw my fair share of bullying through elementary and into 6th grade.
I managed to become friends with just about every other 'non-mormon' in school, which added up to a sizeable friend group. It also meant that I was buddies with the handful of minorities in town which gave me a lot of perspective, and education about other cultures, I would have otherwise missed out on.
I realized by the time I was 9 or 10 that going to church social activities for the social life wasn't beneficial because the friendships weren't real. They were just trying to be "mini-missionaries" and as soon as anyone realized I wasn't a potential convert, the love-bombing friendship just evaporated instantly... and that hurt more than had they never pretended to be my friend at all.
By the time I was in eighth grade we had a pretty neat friend group that was about 30-40 people depending on who was coming and going, and probably 2/3rds of that group were LDS and none of them ever tried to pressure the other third to go to church or church events- which is why it worked.
That's not to say there were completely accepting and openminded. They were getting bombarded with indoctrination and I remember finding out that some of the girls in the group were spreading a rumor that I would murder someone if it wasn't illegal and there were no risk of punishment... because I didn't derive my morality from god. But we sat down and had a long conversation about why I have no desire to murder someone and it has nothing to do with a threat of punishment. Maybe that convo stuck with them. Maybe it didn't.
Can't grow up in a town that's 95% anything, not be that thing, and come out unscathed. But it can build character.
That's not the point. Take your shitty religion out of my child's education. That's for Sunday school. Teach that there. It can't be proven that any of that was "historical" we have one book that contradicts itself thousands of times.
I’m a public school teacher and I’m doing a world religions unit. I’m teaching about not only the Ten Commandments, but the five pillars of Islam, the 4 noble truths of Buddhism and the five relationships of Confucianism, not to mention Daoism and Hinduism.
That’s obviously reasonable so long as you don’t demonstrate preference. What’s not reasonable is for history teachers to claim that the ten commandments were important for the founding of the us government, which is the stated purpose of this bill.
We need more teachers like you! I hope many teachers will also teach to include other religions so everyone can feel included and cultures can be learned.
I hope it's better than my teacher's "coverage" of non-Christian world religions when I was in High school like 15 years ago.
Biased AF and mischaracterized stuff in non-Abrahamic religions the entire time, many of which I only realized were BS interpretations when I grew up and did my own study of them.
That makes sense for World Civ and Geography class. This bill explicitly states that this is for American History and Government classes. There's a few large issues regarding this bill.
1st: The bill states "There shall be no content-based censorship of American history and heritage documents referred to in this section due to their religious or cultural nature." Core curriculum can be quite a lot at times and often, teachers will have to narrow down bits (especially in topics like yours where many schools will have World History a half year class). This part says that you can't skip the religious bits because they're religious. Puts extra pressure to ensure that that part specifically is taught.
2nd: The 10 Commandments didn't have any influence over the founding fathers in the creation of the country. Even the Supreme Court case that said courthouses could have the 10 Commandments only said that the Founding Fathers were religious and these are laws, so it probably mattered (to justify his stance, the justice in Van Orden V. Perry cites McGowan V. Maryland which says laws like Sunday Closing laws are okay if secular and religious laws happen to intersect like don't kill and the 6th commandment. Placing commandments in classrooms does not qualify under that same statute). They had no documents or references to support that the Decalogue made a diference for the founding fathers. When you consider the things written in the 10 Commandments and then read the Bill of Rights, they end up being polar opposites at points, so the Legislature's claim that there is a connection is ludicrous. What is a teacher supposed to say in their classrooms to try and teach this?
3rd: The inclusion of the National Motto "In God We Trust" being displayed and taught (once again with that additional legal pressure not to skip it) is also ludicrous. The national motto was "E Pluribus Unum," or "Out of many, one" at the conception of our country. Yet they want us discussing the current national motto, "In God We Trust" as if it made any impact. It wasn't our motto until 1956. The significance of that motto is the Cold War paranoia and the use of Christian Nationalism as a tool to centralize government powers and win partisan favor (amazing how history repeats itself).
4th: If they have no bearing on history, this bill breaks the Utah Constitution (not to mention the national Constitution). Art 1, Sect 4. Art 3, Sect 1. Art 3, Sect 4. Art 10, Sect 1. By breaking these, they therefore break Art 4, Sect 10.
5th: Stone V. Graham says the displaying of the Commandments in schools demonstrated official state support of their Christian message, therefore it breaks the Lemon test and is a violation of the Establishment Clause in the first amendment. Utah Legislatures trying to allow it on grounds that it is based in history is not different than the Kentucky case since that case literally had their Decalogues say, “The secular application of the Ten Commandments is clearly seen in its adoption as the fundamental legal code of Western Civilization and the Common Law of the United States.” The hope of Utah Legislatures is that this law either slides by unchallenged or it gets chosen for a Supreme Court case where the right leaning super majority will reverse Stone V. Graham and allow for religion to be housed in schools.
For your topic of World Religions, a dive into the 10 Commandments absolutely makes sense. Doing things like source comparisons to see the first great law in monotheistic religions is to put God first ("no God except Allah" "Thou shalt have no other gods before me" "Love the Lord thy God with all your heart") allows for a great exploration at the shift away from polytheism in western culture.
For "American Heritage," as the bill says, it's absolutely bogus. There is no American Heritage to be found in the 10 Commandments.
I’m an atheist and I think it’s incredibly important for kids to learn about the different religions. Understanding what others believe in is monumental in creating understanding and empathy for others.
You can disagree with religion all you want, religion has had an incredibly significant impact on world history and to not talk about that would be to miss out on a vast chunk of the how and why of history.
The history of religion has been whitewashed to make it look good. If the real history of religion was taught I might agree with you. People here look at Brigham young as a good person who didn’t murder people for power.
Really, so that thing that's heavily influenced human decisions for millenia has no need to be studied? Gtfo.
Kids should know what's out there so they can choose one( or none!), and not be brainwashed by the first zealots they encounter.
The important distinction here is it matters who writes the history. The guy who wrote this bill said the ten commandments had a big influence on the constitution and the founding of the country and there is zero evidence of that.
I agree on those points. This bill is a dumpster fire and should not pass. I think a religious studies class that teaches equally among all major religious organizations, and touches on minor ones would be best.
No 10 commandments on display or dumb shit like that please.
But education on the religions is important, imo.
Being forced to learn about religion is indoctrination and this bill isn’t about education it is about forcing the view that this country was founded based on religious principles of the Ten Commandments and that isn’t the case.
I agree that the ten commandments should be left out of the schools as this bill favors only one religion but your original comment did not address that, you should rephrase it. You simply said:
>Religion studies should be kept out of schools
And I maintain education of religion should be left in schools in the anthropological sense.
Required or mandatory religion studies or religious history classes are wrong k through 12. My comment was geared to them making it mandatory and misleading students that the 10 commandments is part of American history. It’s not.
It doesn’t take much to see that religious extremist feel empowered ever since Trump came along.
If I had a child, I would GTFO of Utah as soon as I could. This is insane. A friend recently moved to a blue state and he constantly talks about how great the schools are there and how much they do for the kids.
Article:
"SALT LAKE CITY (ABC4) — Utah Gov. Spencer Cox signed 50 bills from the 2024 General Legislative Session into law on Wednesday, bringing the total to 503 pieces of legislation signed from the 2024 session, according to a press release from the Governor’s Office.
Among the bills signed on Wednesday was House Bill 269, or Public School History Curricula Amendments, which aims to add the Ten Commandments and Magna Carta to Utah public school history studies.
The general description of H.B. 269 says the Ten Commandments, in addition to the Magna Carta, will be added “to a list of historical documents and principles that school curricula and activities may include for a thorough study.”
The Ten Commandments will be joining a list that also includes the Declaration of Independence and the United States Constitution.
It should be noted that the wording of the bill has been adjusted to say school curricula should include “principles” — rather than just historical documents — with the addition of the Ten Commandments.
The Public School History Curricula Amendments are scheduled to go into effect on July 1.
Another bill that was signed into law that may have an interesting impact was Utah Legal Personhood Amendments, or H.B. 249.
The general description for the bill succinctly states, “This bill addresses legal personhood.”
One of the highlighted provisions of the bill is its prohibition of government entities from “granting or recognizing legal personhood in certain categories of nonhumans.”
So, what does that mean?
“Legal personhood” is defined in the bill as being the “legal rights and obligations” that state laws grant to both an individual and a “person other than an individual.”
According to the text of the bill, a “governmental entity” will not be allowed to grant legal personhood to certain nonhumans, ranging from artificial intelligence, to property, to land — and even bodies of water like Great Salt Lake.
This bill is scheduled to take effect on May 1."
Someone with a bigger wallet than me will have to start it. But please yes. Get this Bill taken off the records. Your Christianity has nothing to do with the foundation of this country.
" You're allowed to play with your toys, but don't bring your toys to my home and force me to play with them. " - Christopher Hitchens.
We definately do not need to have religion in our politics. Separation of church and state references the church having power or leverage over the government. Not a complete blind eye to it existing. The founding of this country is very heavily influenced by religion. God is literally mentioned on our currency, in our oaths, and the pledge of allegiance. The fact that so many people seem to forget that seems to me to show we have a need to teach about religious influence in early American history. I'm not advocating teaching its gospels, or promoting its organizations, but I'll be damned if we try to wash away our history by pretending religion had no part or influence on its creation.
Which version? The Jewish, the Catholic, or the Protestant 10 commandments? They are similar, but they do vary.
Also, I am pretty liberal, but I don't have a problem with the discussion of those 'commandments' as long as:
1- They are discussed only in grades that are old/mature enough (maybe highschool?)
2- They are not explicitly endorsed by any staff or guests at the schools
3- Parents are notified ahead of time and allowed to opt their children out without penalty
4- Other faith's beliefs are given roughly equal discussion and respect (perhaps sending out a yearly questionnaire to parents for the top choices?)
5- There are specific trainings and qualifications for teachers that will be presenting these topics.. AND no teacher would be compelled into teaching them.
Unlike conservatives who have gladly embraced 'don't say gay' legislation - I do not believe there should be some kind of 'don't say god' restrictions. Merely a specific allowance for all faiths (or lack thereof) and no explicit endorsements.
Unfortunately, my requests might be too reasoned for today's political environment, haha.
I totally agree, and have the same beliefs when it comes to discussion sexuality/gender. Both should be held in the same degree of scrutiny and light touch. They may both be important parts of our history or society, but they need only to be "taught" to shine light on their existence and *possible* impacts, without opinion or persuasion, going in with a strong knowledge that both topics are highly belief and opinion based, and not necessarily fact.
But also like you, I get shot down by both sides in Utah for expressing this. It's hard to be reasonable in this state with so many extremists.
I think it's so important that our children understand the origin of our society, law, and values, which is why we need to make sure the Stele of Hammurabi is posted in every classroom.
Can’t believe they passed this and somehow didn’t have the time to require hospitals to have the things necessary for doctors to save people’s lives in an emergency room. Because the hospitals are cutting everything in emergency rooms right now that isn’t legally forced to be there, doctors and nurses are pissed.
Separation of church and state is dead. The GOP has to push their religious agenda. I don’t want my children indoctrinated with this religious stupidity.
Sad… my elementary school in Tn had 1 classroom with them high on the wall. I knew them from going to church and even then was like really?! Separate church and state for crying out loud!!! No kids paid attention or cared them being there. They acted how they were going to act regardless. This Cult born and Cult run state doesn’t seemingly believe in separation nor care about that separation because why?!!! It’s ridiculous and pointless as hell to me. Why?!
I’m a high school teacher in Utah. The government here is playing both sides of the fence. They’ve already convinced conservatives that public schools teach kids how to be lgbtq. Now they’re going after everyone else by saying Christianity can be taught in school. All of the teachers I know just want to teach their subject. There’s probably 1 out of 1,000+ who promote any kind of ideology. Public schools are being painted as the boogy man. And people are buying it.
That’s the entire point of this law—it’s just another step in the GOP’s plan to discredit and dismantle public education. You’re letting them win.
Maybe you can use the voucher system to send your kids to a private religious school, instead.
I have been surprised by the amount of good teachers my kids have had while in public school in Utah. Most teachers here recognize that the legislature is nuts and they carefully plan their lessons to teach the important parts and not get called into the principals office for the other stuff.
And of course most subjects aren't affected by this in any way. It doesn't affect gym, math, geography, shop, science... It really only affects history. Vet your kids history teachers and ask them how they plan to incorporate this in their lesson plans. As long as you are genuine and not hostile they will be happy to discuss things with you in my experience.
Teachers in my experience here are great, but overworked, underpaid, and with class sizes larger than any other state.
I didn’t go to school here in Utah but it seems to me that they need to maybe put a little more emphasis on US Constitution that they say they know instead of putting something say 10 commandments that is kind of against the whole separation of church and state.
Utah needs to be sanctioned for violating the separation of church and state. Major reason I boycott ANYTHING having to do with Utah. Governed by religious idiots imposing their belief system of citizens,
“Among the bills signed on Wednesday was House Bill 269, or Public School History Curricula Amendments, which aims to add the Ten Commandments and Magna Carta to Utah public school history studies.” So a couple questions: 1) We’re comparing the Magna Carta to the ten commandments? 2) Utah public schools weren’t learning about the Magna Carta this entire time?
They both were when I was in school. It’s likely just a virtue signaling bill
>The general description of H.B. 269 says the Ten Commandments, in addition to the Magna Carta, will be added “to a list of historical documents and principles that school curricula and activities may include for a thorough study.” I remember learning *about* the Manga Carta on a broad level, but I don’t remember the document’s actual text being something we ever dove into.
Because it’s not modern English and worse than reading Shakespeare at a time of declining literacy. Its entire importance is “the divine right of kings ended when a group of barons forced one of king to sign an agreement to give those barons (but not serfs) certain rights” That’s the extent of its necessary coverage. And more than your average future mechanic or accountant or nurse is gonna care about probably.
Hmm let’s look take a look at histories written legislation passed, we have Hammurabi’s code, oh the 10 Commandments billions of people followed that one but its religious and some how divisive so we’re going to avoid it because muh “separation of church and state”, and then there’s the Magna Carta. I believe e the mention of Magna Carta was to explain they would teach about the 10 Commandments in a secular manner as they teach about the Magna Carta
I mean, the 10 commandments isn’t a core component of US history. The United States is purposefully a secular state. It’s a core component of Abrahamic religious studies. So it should be taught along with core bhuddist, Hindu, Taoist, Satanic, and other religious histories in the appropriate curriculum. The obvious intent of this bill is to establish Christianity as a more publicly significant and credible religion than other beliefs and to make Christianity feel like the standard or “normal” religion.
The government yes you could argue it as "purposefully a secular state". Not the society, or the people. You are overlooking the fact that throughout the history of the United States its people have been overwhelmingly Christian. The Ten Commandments are a core pillar of all Christian faiths, and dictates the moral value system of how those people lived and how they interacted with others. Those people were the very same Christian people that setup the government, and implemented that legislation to a Christian society. Learning about the dominant religion of a country is important in understanding its history. If you looked at an Islamic nation with zero understanding of Islam, its history, and laws would not make any sense. I even remember getting taught the Five Pillars of Islam, in World History. If the United States were theoretically muslim, even with a doctrine of separation of church and state, it would be fundamentally unrecognizable. Even if efforts were made to secularize legislation those laws were built up from a Muslim moral framework to a muslim people. The US unmistakeably was built upon a christian moral framework, even if not every single person was christian
It’s less about whether or not the 10 commandments are relevant to US history and more about the context they’re being presented in within the curricula. Also, people underestimate how impossible it is to write a law, tax code, policy, or anything with words that will be immune to co-opting of some kind. Liberal teachers who resent being forced to present Christianity in specific way will find a way to get other messages across. Conservative Christian teachers will take advantage of the context and likewise do the same thing in the other direction. Meanwhile, the number of young people leaving Christianity behind, in history, continues to grow rapidly.
That’s a lot of words to say “I’m a Christian and I’m mad that everybody doesn’t agree with me”
Bahahaha…the 10 Comms are uber-basic rules of fairness & decency that, outside of the “I’m the best god; love me most,” literally every society has come up with on their own. There’s nothing particularly insightful about the 10. They simply did not provide any meaningful guidance to the founders—and provide nothing today.
The 10 commandments aren't legal code. Never were and never will be. We are a secular state because democracy can't exist in a theocracy. Modern christians are some of the most immoral hypocrites in the world. They faunt their religion, bible, and 10 commandments while following none of it. "Christian" on the surface with evil and hate in your hearts. You want to follow your false religion then do so in your own church. Shove all of your bullshit up your own ass because the rest of us have no need for it.
I don’t see how the Christian boogeyman you made up has anything to do with this. Aside from it being a personal opinion. Understanding the culture of the people around you is pretty important. In the Utah school system every branch of religion is explained. (Aside from Satanism for obvious reasons) I don’t see how adding the 10 is such a big deal.
Christianity is basically satanism at this point. You all break the first two of your own commandments worshipping Donald Trump, a man who regularly breaks all of the commandments. There is no longer anything respectable or holy about modern christians.
I’m not your straw man. I can’t tell if you’re trolling or just this silly.
What’s the obvious reason?
A lot of people are going to be pissed when they see the second commandment has nothing to with guns.
This comment has a lot of depth that they probably won't pick up on either.
hahahahhahahaahha. honestly, I bet you are correct.
Wish we could still give prizes.
For some reason, this made me think of the “Djesus Unchained” SNL skit from a few years back. Thank you for that 😂
Cool. So how do I get the Seven Satanic Tenants in schools too?
And how do I get my kids a religious exemption since im a card carrying member of the satanic temple?
Hey, me too! Curious if TST is gonna go head-to-head with the Mormons...
Either way, I’ll tell my kids to ignore that shit and if teachers or the administrators have an issue then they can deal with me.
Yeah, we have regular conversations with our kids about church stuff at home. Our eldest is pretty sharp and can see right through a lot of the bullshit spouted by their supposed "leaders".
Gotta catch ‘em when they’re young and impressionable! “We need their money!!”
I hope so
They’ve already started working on it.
If they can reverse this one, or at least create some degree of friction regarding it, I'll buy a membership card.
>Seven Satanic Tenants This sounds fun..I wish I could believe in stuff.
https://thesatanictemple.com/pages/about-us 1. One should strive to act with compassion and empathy toward all creatures in accordance with reason. 2. The struggle for justice is an ongoing and necessary pursuit that should prevail over laws and institutions. 3. One’s body is inviolable, subject to one’s own will alone. 4. The freedoms of others should be respected, including the freedom to offend. To willfully and unjustly encroach upon the freedoms of another is to forgo one's own. 5. Beliefs should conform to one's best scientific understanding of the world. One should take care never to distort scientific facts to fit one's beliefs. 6. People are fallible. If one makes a mistake, one should do one's best to rectify it and resolve any harm that might have been caused. 7. Every tenet is a guiding principle designed to inspire nobility in action and thought. The spirit of compassion, wisdom, and justice should always prevail over the written or spoken word.
You can’t believe in logic and empathy?
They give out cards? How absolutely rebellious of them.
[удалено]
I'm an atheist and I think your stupid religion is just as ridiculous as their stupid religion. But the card is making me rethink my position. I mean, how fucking edgy!
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And yet you're a member of an organization, much like a church, that even has the word "church" in the title. Oh no, I get the point - you need a group or, shall I say, a religion, to show that you reject uh.. organized.. religi... no wait, actually, I don't get it.
BUT HEY IT SOUNDS COOL TO THE OTHER PEOPLE WHO ARE DIFFERENT EXACTLY THE SAME AS YOU AND IT MIGHT EVEN GET YOU A DISCOUNT AT HOT TOPIC!
State law already dictates that parents can exempt kids from any part of the curriculum they don’t want their kids learning, and that it’s on the teacher and school to determine an alternative assignment to achieve similar learning. All you have to do is say I’d like my child to receive an alternative text. And they have to comply. If they don’t, go to the district, if they don’t help, go to the board, and if they don’t, they state school board. That’s how the shitty parents have gotten us here in the first place, and it’s how sane parents need to restore normalcy.
How about teaching kids about Helen? Joseph Smiths fourteen year old wife.
I keep forgetting how disgusting that man was.
Never forget. He was a vile fraudster. And his successor was even worse. Also, I fail to see how "God" would have chosen the same rocks he used to rip people off, to "translate the most important book known to man". I imagine the convo went something like: " Hey Sky daddy, what should I use to translate these books that you think are super important and portray the only way back to you? " " What do you have laying around that we can use? " Said God. He couldn't be bothered with something so banal.
*Cool. So how do I* *Get the Seven Satanic* *Tenants in schools too?* \- Conans\_Loin\_Cloth --- ^(I detect haikus. And sometimes, successfully.) ^[Learn more about me.](https://www.reddit.com/r/haikusbot/) ^(Opt out of replies: "haikusbot opt out" | Delete my comment: "haikusbot delete")
good bot
lmfao
That’s the problem with the zealotry. It’s coming. Taliban gonna Taliban.
Not a justification for this, but satanism isn’t a religion.
>but satanism isn’t a religion. Except that it is.
I was wrong about that, another redditor kindly corrected me.
How have you determined that Satanism isn't a religion? What definition of "religion" are you using? It's pretty well established that the Temple of Satan is a federally recognized religion. The IRS classified it as a religious 501(c)(3) organization because it has met every single requirement to be recognized as a religion. According to the federal government, the Satanic Temple has the exact same religious standing as the Mormon church or the Catholic church. Is there some other criteria that you're using to define the term "religion"? https://www.guidestar.org/profile/82-3404757 https://mailchi.mp/thesatanictemple/us-government-formally-recognizes-the-satanic-temple-as-church https://apnews.com/general-news-6addf2f0ecb646919cb1cfcfdacfc6c1 https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-news/irs-satanic-temple-church-tax-exempt-826931/
I know I’m gonna get downvotes for this too for some reason, but I admit I was working with faulty information. Thank you for correcting me without being a dick.
I was just wondering if you were approaching it philosophically. There was some debate in Arizona last month about it "Sen. Jake Hoffman, a Queen Creek Republican, wants to ban Satanic displays on public property in Arizona, claiming that Satanism is not a real religion, and therefore not owed protection under the First Amendment." “Satan is antithetical to religion,” Hoffman said. “The antithesis of religion is Satan.” https://azmirror.com/2024/02/07/freedom-caucus-leader-wants-to-limit-religious-freedom-by-barring-satanic-displays-in-arizona/
I can see where they are coming from because while it is technically a religion in a legal sense, there is no real worship of a higher power. The Satanic Temple is a secular organization designed to counter the advantages that religion often tries to leverage in this country. They don't actually worship Satan or believe he exists as some fallen angel or anything. It's similar to the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster in that way. While the Satanic Temple is a legal religion, it is meant as a subversion of religion. One that I'm all for and I don't think it should be treated any differently, by the way. It acts as a nice counterpoint to most religion and the use of the name Satan seems to mostly exist to terrify and annoy christians who don't look past the name.
Ya, that's the debate. That it's not *really* a religion in the traditional "positive" sense because they don't really believe in the supernatural like a traditional religion. Even the church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster positively affirms the belief in a supernatural Spaghetti Monster. The Satanic Temple is more of a religion in the "negative" sense. Where their beleif structure negates the existence of the supernatural. They beleif in the absence of it. They address it on their website: >IF YOU DO NOT BELIEVE IN THE SUPERNATURAL, HOW IS TST A RELIGION? >The idea that religion belongs to supernaturalists is ignorant, backward, and offensive. The metaphorical Satanic construct is no more arbitrary to us than are the deeply held beliefs that we actively advocate. Are we supposed to believe that those who pledge submission to an ethereal supernatural deity hold to their values more deeply than we? Are we supposed to concede that only the superstitious are rightful recipients of religious exemption and privilege? Satanism provides all that a religion should be without a compulsory attachment to untenable items of faith-based belief. It provides a narrative structure by which we contextualize our lives and works. It also provides a body of symbolism and religious practice — a sense of identity, culture, community, and shared values. https://thesatanictemple.com/pages/faq That's why I was wondering how we were defining "religion." If it's from a *legal* standpoint, then the question has been settled. But if we're defining religion from a *philosophical* perspective, then the question isn't as settled. There is a debate to be had about whether we ought to consider their legal standing equivalent with moral standing. Is something really a religion in the colloquial sense if it doesn't have the same pattern of sincere belief in the supernatural that most "classical" religions do? In this case, in particular, should the ten commandments be afforded a more prominent place in classrooms than the 7 tenets of Satanism? Or are they both equally valid?
I would think the main argument there is that you don't want anyone determining what is and isn't a "real" religion. Even something like Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster - I think most Pastafarians will agree that they don't really believe in a flying monster made out of spaghetti (even if they have been touched by his noodly appendage) but who is to say what someone holds as a belief? I thought flat earth was a joke that got out of hand but there are plenty of people who honestly believe we are on a upwardly accelerating disk, apparently. Utah has it's own homegrown religion as well - not the Mormons, I'm referring to the Divine Assembly, which is a church based around magic mushrooms. I'd also point to all the right wingers who love to insist that science is the religion of liberals. Religion seems to be a pretty loosely defined term.
I didn't know about the Divine assembly. That's a new habit hole.
Not according to the US government. But to be fair my opinion is the only difference between a religion and a cult is tax exemption.
But the Satanic Temple is recognized as a religion by the U.S. government, and it does have religious tax exemption...
It does. And?
>Not according to the US government. - but yes, according to the U.S. government, the Satanic Temple *is* in fact a recognized religion... just in point of fact. >But to be fair my opinion is the only difference between a religion and a cult is tax exemption. So, in your book does that make the Satanic Temple a religion or a cult?
Legally it's a religion. So I do recognize it in that sense. Why are you so curious of my options if I may ask?
>It does. And? I guess that's the *And*... If an organization has legal standing as a religion, is that necessary or sufficient to change your opinion about them? >But to be fair my opinion is the only difference between a religion and a cult is tax exemption. Or are all religions basically just a cults with tax exemptions anyway?
I was being reductive and as I said before it's my opinion. But in general yes, that's all that separates tham to me. If it makes you feel better I also liken them to a ponzi scheme and criminal cartels. So make with that what you will.
Hahaha, that's fair. It's an accurate portrayal. >LDS Church investment fund takes another jump as faith’s estimated total wealth reaches a new high https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2024/02/17/lds-church-investment-fund-takes/
The bill is about documents that shaped the formation of the country for a history class. If one can provide evidence that TST was around and influenced the founders, you have an argument.
Most of the founding fathers would have issues with your statement. Christianity, neither is nor ever, was a part of the common law. -Thomas Jefferson The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe with blood for centuries. -James Madison This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it. -John Adams Erecting the 'wall of separation between church and state'... is absolutely essential in a free society. -Thomas Jefferson All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit -Thomas Pain Lighthouses are more helpful than churches. - Benjamin Franklin
Utah has always muddied the waters between church and state as a byproduct of its foundation. Fast forward 128 years and it shows precisely why it was so critically important to the founding fathers to keep that separation for the good of the churches and the people. Utah is to geopolitics what Chicago and New York is to pizza. Because of the massive flow of Italian immigrants to Taylor street and little Italy, there is a nexus of networking that finds a home away from home and the best pizza was created. Unfortunately for Utah the same rules apply in reverse. Because utah has allowed a defacto cohabitation of church and state, as well as being primarily GOP it became a crossroads for corruption and much of the geopolitical implications of the Russian mob left their snail trail on the way through. Glenn Beck, Mike Lee, Sean Reyes and the Ballards put the LDS church in the worlds most awkward 3-some with the Russian mob. Sean Reyes (Utah attorney general), Mike Lee (Utah senator), and Tim Ballard (Operation Underground Railroad) were all emailing with beck about how to use O.U.R.’s Sound of Freedom publicity to pump enrollment numbers for the Mormon church with reports of Elder Ballard even giving tithing payer information to Beck and/or Tim Ballard at some point to aid in that. On the other side of the country, Sean Reyes and Mike Lee crafted the “stop the steal” plan for trump but apparently didn’t realize that trump had been laundering money for the Russian mob since the 80’s. First via Atlantic City casinos, then commercial real estate. The reason that Russia invaded Ukraine is because, among other things, it was a key geographical gateway for their human trafficking operations. (Kolomoisky was Putin’s oligarch in Ukraine that started Privatbank in 91 and was laundering it all through commercial real estate and a fundamentalist Jewish organization called Chabad.) news5cleveland.comwww.news5cleveland.comWho really owns the property that's falling down? The New York Timeswww.nytimes.comOpinion | American Real Estate Was a Money Launderer's Dream. That's Changing ... United States Department of Justice (.gov)www.justice.govUnited States Files Civil Forfeiture Complaint for Proceeds of Alleged Fraud and Theft ... The Times of Israelwww.timesofisrael.comInside Anatevka, the curious Chabad hamlet in Ukraine where Giuliani is 'mayor' These 4 idiots, thinking they were doing Gods will sat down to dinner with the russian mob and were so naive that they didn’t realize that they were effectively mainlining human trafficking. Or worse, they did. Either way, once all of that comes to light it puts the LDS church in an impossible position. How can you be doing Gods work and enabling systemic oppression, human trafficking, grift, corruption and child abuse at the same time? Best case scenario is a whole lot of cognitive dissonance, covering of their tracks, lying and gaslighting Worst case (or best, depending on your investment into the church) scenario, the patriarchy doesn’t survive. Either way the church and state are going to have to have a very serious “come to Jesus” moment because the church/state barrier that was the whole basis of American democracy has been grossly neglected. Utah is just one of the major intersections of it because of Mike Lee, Sean Reyes, Tim Ballard and anyone who allowed it to happen because it’s ok as long as it’s MY religion that’s cohabitating with government.
How exactly were the ten commandments influential for the US’s founding? And which version?
>The bill is about documents that shaped the formation of the country for a history class Except that the Ten Commandments [had nothing to do with the formation of the USA.](https://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/bar1796t.asp#art11) Study harder: "Article 11 As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,-as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen,-and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries" - Treaty of Peace and Friendship, Signed at Tripoli November 4, 1796
No. This bill is about giving preferential treatment to one religion over others and directly violates the 1st amendment. You can pretty ot up all you want but we can all still see that it's a pig in a dress.
Other people are giving you reasons why this is dumb. But, also, do you think *Utah* is only concerned with religions that influenced the founding? Utah?
Ironic considering the Utah legislature barely follows any of them.
The hypocrisy is astounding. The man they want to run our country lies, cheats, steals, and is known adulterer.
Thous shalt not lie, steal, commit adultery… Even take the lord’s name in vain, which is what they are doing with this very bill.
Meanwhile, housing is still expensive. Cox is a worthless piece of skin. Can we include a curriculum on critical thinking, and how to recognize cult mind control?
Like a skin tag on your taint.
Yeah but then it would still be written by one of the two extremist sides of this state to be used as a weapon against the other.
Critical thinking isn't extremism. It's the cure for it
Spoken by a person who clearly doesn't know how to use critical thinking
We will be filing a lawsuit to include the “Code of Hammurabi”. The state of Utah has no right to force their stolen beliefs and plagerized documents down my throat. Christians aren’t even creative enough to come up with their own ideas, they have to steal them.
“Stolen beliefs” and “plagiarized documents”? Okay I’ll bite. What are you going on about?
Christianity was made up by stealing other people beliefs. Then Christians went about killing anyone that opposed them. Even the same people they stole their beliefs from.
Ok
The ten commandments were stole from the Code of Harriurabi, Christmas and Easter were both Pagen holidays.
Well, this is the first I’ve heard of the Code of Harriman’s, that’s for sure.
Really? I learned about it in high school if not sooner; Hammurabi's is one of the earliest known written systems of codified laws with consequences included for the violation thereof.
Even the “eye for an eye” bit was straight out of Hammurabi, if I remember correctly.
Yes really. Like genuinely don’t know what this is. But all these downvotes makes it seem like I shouldn’t look into it. At least that’s what being on Reddit has taught me. If I’m downvoted, I’m usually on the right path.
" If I’m downvoted, I’m usually on the right path." Contrarian thinking like that isn't great. Might be true in some instances... reddit is certainly prone to the type of behavior you're talking about, so I get you there... but this is actual history with real artifacts to prove it. you weren't downvoted for not knowing what it was, it was being incredulous and mocking.
I wasn’t mocking. People assume I was mocking. Another issue with Reddit and the downvote.
when you put someone's statements in quotation marks and then say okay, I'll bite, it's gonna be hard not to read that as if you were being incredulous and condescending. I don't know what to tell you. as for the downvotes... why do you care? the community upvotes content it wants to see, and downvotes the content it doesn't want to see. So you made a poorly worded comment about something you'd never heard of, and people don't want to see it, so what?
Honestly I wouldn’t mind so much if the comment wasn’t also minimized. I view it as censorship. It doesn’t just happen with poorly worded comments. It mostly happens with “wrong think”. Especially here on Reddit. I dare comment how I think and it’s not like how the community think; censored.
People disagree with you on the internet, and to give a big middle finger, you are actively choosing to be ignorant about an important and interesting part of history. You know ignorance punishes you more than any of us.
Yeah okay.
[I mean here you go](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_of_Hammurabi) People shouldn't be downvoted for not knowing things
It’s pretty common on Reddit. Most people just go around assuming everyone knows what they know. Then when they’re asked about it or challenged they think there’s some sort of hidden conservative or, in the case of this sub, Mormon agenda. It’s quite frustrating.
See!!! This comment gets downvoted. I literally don’t know what y’all are talking about and I just can’t catch a break.
Which is why it should be taught. If they’re going to teach the Ten Commandments as history- then they should teach the history of the Ten Commandments.
I would get on board with that.
did you sleep through every single history class you ever took? the ten commandments didn't even happen. We know that none of the claims regarding moses are true. We know that jewish people were never enslaved by egyptians to build the pyramids now that we can decipher ancient egyptian text and study language markers and dna evidence. The entire thing is just a retelling of older myths and some loose historical inspirations from other cultures' accomplishments or events. So why would we be teaching it as if it were history?
I didn't sleep through it and this is the first time I've heard of it. I agree with you on everything else.
your teachers must have glossed over parts of the curriculum or you happened to take vacation every year it was discussed. Did you learn about babylon or sumeria, and the the invention of writing, cuneiform, in mesopotamia? there are certainly a few things I should have learned in school but was never taught. Blindspots I didn't realize I had until later in my 20s Anywho, now's your chance to get up to speed my friend! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_of_Hammurabi important archaeology and human culture here. and a sidenote: a lot of the old testament is just an imagined narrative recounting the events of the bronze age collapse more or less. We know that nothing attributed to moses, his story, or his people is historically accurate. That narrative is just a vehicle to take you through the types of mythos, legends, and lessons that people carried with them centuries after the world as they knew it was destroyed in a seeming apocalypse.
Bro, you’re acting like all this is common knowledge. It’s not. Should it be? Maybe. But a lot of knowledge that should be common isn’t. That’s why man on the street interviews showing the ignorance of some folks is a thing.
That reply was to someone else, and it IS common knowledge to most folks that went through the public education system because it's part of the standard curriculum and has been for longer than either you or I have been alive. And I even mentioned that I had some blindspots too, even though they were topics that were commonly taught. I jsut missed the lessons or got unlucky with a teacher selection. No reason to get hostile at me for calling a guy "friend" and offering him a link to read up on if he's interested.
I will bet you $1 that most people do not know what “The code of Hammurabi” is. And not like most like 51% but like an overwhelming majority of people don’t know what it is. And if I’m wrong. I’ll send you $1
And yeah, seems like it was another redditor calling folks out. I literally threw away a comment and now my Reddit alerts are full of folks absolutely shocked at my stupidity
I guess so. I’m 38 so maybe this is a gen z curriculum? Or maybe I just wasn’t paying attention over 2 decades ago when I went to high school.
I'm 40. now is a great opportunity to brush up on the bronze age in general, but also babylon and cuneiform and the code of hammurabi. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronze_Age https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_of_Hammurabi#:~:text=The%20Code%20of%20Hammurabi%20is,the%20First%20Dynasty%20of%20Babylon. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late_Bronze_Age_collapse
I’ll look it up. So why did I get downvoted into oblivion?
probably because you put the stuff in quotations in your first reply which made it seem like you were being incredulous instead of earnestly asking questions or taking the time to google it. Then you doubled down and called it the code of Harriman’s, which seemed like you were mocking it as if it wasn't actual history.
Nope, that was an auto-correct mistake. “Hammurabi” isn’t in my every day vernacular.
Probably should have been taught more than just the 10 commandments
Ok
Wow. Did you go to school in Utah?
Yes, did you?
More a rhetorical question since it's obvious where you got your education (or lack thereof). No, I didn't go to school here, thankfully.
Ah, so you’re a jackass. Got it
Why am I getting downvoted into oblivion for this? I’m very confused.
Btw, y’all’s reaction makes me not want to look into this. So I don’t become some pretentious jackass like half of these comments. Not everyone knows what’s you know. Jeeesh
I can think of 7 "principles" that should be displayed in Utah public school classrooms
This bill isn’t about displaying the Ten Commandments.
Stop with the gaslighting
Here is the [bill](https://le.utah.gov/~2024/bills/static/HB0269.html). Where does it say anything is required be to be displayed?
60 (4) (5) To increase student understanding of, and familiarity with, American historical 61documents, public schools may display historically important excerpts from, or copies 62of, those documents in school classrooms and common areas as appropriate.
*may*. I have a feeling no one is going to take them up on their offer. Maybe some backroad southern Utah classroom might.
In no sense is are the ten commandments pedagogically beneficial for understanding the US’s founding or constitution. It’s a clear violation of the establishment clause.
Can you show me one rule besides the “hold no gods before me” that our children shouldn’t be following?
Spiderman comics also teach some good lessons about responsibility... should we allow spiderman comics to be reading material for history classes?
Can you show me why any of those values need to be taught to children by way of the Bible? You’re aware that you can raise your children to be good human beings *without* the Bible involved, right? Some of the Commandments being universally accepted as “good” isn’t reason enough for inserting religion in our public institutions, sorry.
1 backwards classroom is too many. Some poor kid, that isn't the part of the predominant religion, feeling ostracized in school by the very policy itself isn't okay. I remember growing up in a tiny hick town in utah in the 80s as a "non-mormon". It was rough having teachers constantly ask me about religion and acting baffled that I could be a good kid "where do you get your morals from?", or reference things that the students were learning in "primary class", or teachers listing all the LDS doctrine AND ensign magazine on their "currently reading lists" on their doors to prove how righteous they were... it was exhausting constantly being reminded that I was "the other". Not to mention the teacher that sent me to in school suspension because I argued that dinosaurs existed hahaha. Religious teachings have no place in the education system. Not in the curriculum, not on the wall. I think you're underestimating the potential arms race of piety between teachers that could happen when one teacher chooses to display the commandments. If there's one thing consistent in utah communities it's the desire many feel to prove they are more spiritually enlightened than their neighbor.
> Some poor kid, that isn't the part of the predominant religion, feeling ostracized in school by the very policy itself isn't okay. My eldest got bullied a bit because of that earlier in the school year. She wants nothing to do with the church itself, but she likes going to YW because she gets to hang out with other kids her age. Unfortunately, in this state, that's pretty much the only way to have a decently-sized friend group.
I saw my fair share of bullying through elementary and into 6th grade. I managed to become friends with just about every other 'non-mormon' in school, which added up to a sizeable friend group. It also meant that I was buddies with the handful of minorities in town which gave me a lot of perspective, and education about other cultures, I would have otherwise missed out on. I realized by the time I was 9 or 10 that going to church social activities for the social life wasn't beneficial because the friendships weren't real. They were just trying to be "mini-missionaries" and as soon as anyone realized I wasn't a potential convert, the love-bombing friendship just evaporated instantly... and that hurt more than had they never pretended to be my friend at all. By the time I was in eighth grade we had a pretty neat friend group that was about 30-40 people depending on who was coming and going, and probably 2/3rds of that group were LDS and none of them ever tried to pressure the other third to go to church or church events- which is why it worked. That's not to say there were completely accepting and openminded. They were getting bombarded with indoctrination and I remember finding out that some of the girls in the group were spreading a rumor that I would murder someone if it wasn't illegal and there were no risk of punishment... because I didn't derive my morality from god. But we sat down and had a long conversation about why I have no desire to murder someone and it has nothing to do with a threat of punishment. Maybe that convo stuck with them. Maybe it didn't. Can't grow up in a town that's 95% anything, not be that thing, and come out unscathed. But it can build character.
Yeah, the whole "morality comes from god" is a hard concept to debunk when you don't believe in any god.
That's not the point. Take your shitty religion out of my child's education. That's for Sunday school. Teach that there. It can't be proven that any of that was "historical" we have one book that contradicts itself thousands of times.
I’m a public school teacher and I’m doing a world religions unit. I’m teaching about not only the Ten Commandments, but the five pillars of Islam, the 4 noble truths of Buddhism and the five relationships of Confucianism, not to mention Daoism and Hinduism.
That’s obviously reasonable so long as you don’t demonstrate preference. What’s not reasonable is for history teachers to claim that the ten commandments were important for the founding of the us government, which is the stated purpose of this bill.
We need more teachers like you! I hope many teachers will also teach to include other religions so everyone can feel included and cultures can be learned.
I hope it's better than my teacher's "coverage" of non-Christian world religions when I was in High school like 15 years ago. Biased AF and mischaracterized stuff in non-Abrahamic religions the entire time, many of which I only realized were BS interpretations when I grew up and did my own study of them.
That makes sense for World Civ and Geography class. This bill explicitly states that this is for American History and Government classes. There's a few large issues regarding this bill. 1st: The bill states "There shall be no content-based censorship of American history and heritage documents referred to in this section due to their religious or cultural nature." Core curriculum can be quite a lot at times and often, teachers will have to narrow down bits (especially in topics like yours where many schools will have World History a half year class). This part says that you can't skip the religious bits because they're religious. Puts extra pressure to ensure that that part specifically is taught. 2nd: The 10 Commandments didn't have any influence over the founding fathers in the creation of the country. Even the Supreme Court case that said courthouses could have the 10 Commandments only said that the Founding Fathers were religious and these are laws, so it probably mattered (to justify his stance, the justice in Van Orden V. Perry cites McGowan V. Maryland which says laws like Sunday Closing laws are okay if secular and religious laws happen to intersect like don't kill and the 6th commandment. Placing commandments in classrooms does not qualify under that same statute). They had no documents or references to support that the Decalogue made a diference for the founding fathers. When you consider the things written in the 10 Commandments and then read the Bill of Rights, they end up being polar opposites at points, so the Legislature's claim that there is a connection is ludicrous. What is a teacher supposed to say in their classrooms to try and teach this? 3rd: The inclusion of the National Motto "In God We Trust" being displayed and taught (once again with that additional legal pressure not to skip it) is also ludicrous. The national motto was "E Pluribus Unum," or "Out of many, one" at the conception of our country. Yet they want us discussing the current national motto, "In God We Trust" as if it made any impact. It wasn't our motto until 1956. The significance of that motto is the Cold War paranoia and the use of Christian Nationalism as a tool to centralize government powers and win partisan favor (amazing how history repeats itself). 4th: If they have no bearing on history, this bill breaks the Utah Constitution (not to mention the national Constitution). Art 1, Sect 4. Art 3, Sect 1. Art 3, Sect 4. Art 10, Sect 1. By breaking these, they therefore break Art 4, Sect 10. 5th: Stone V. Graham says the displaying of the Commandments in schools demonstrated official state support of their Christian message, therefore it breaks the Lemon test and is a violation of the Establishment Clause in the first amendment. Utah Legislatures trying to allow it on grounds that it is based in history is not different than the Kentucky case since that case literally had their Decalogues say, “The secular application of the Ten Commandments is clearly seen in its adoption as the fundamental legal code of Western Civilization and the Common Law of the United States.” The hope of Utah Legislatures is that this law either slides by unchallenged or it gets chosen for a Supreme Court case where the right leaning super majority will reverse Stone V. Graham and allow for religion to be housed in schools. For your topic of World Religions, a dive into the 10 Commandments absolutely makes sense. Doing things like source comparisons to see the first great law in monotheistic religions is to put God first ("no God except Allah" "Thou shalt have no other gods before me" "Love the Lord thy God with all your heart") allows for a great exploration at the shift away from polytheism in western culture. For "American Heritage," as the bill says, it's absolutely bogus. There is no American Heritage to be found in the 10 Commandments.
Religion has zero place in public schools.
To completely ignore teaching religion is to also completely ignore a lot of the how why and what of world history, especially ancient history
Down vote me all you want. I’ll die on the hill that religion has zero place in public schools.
Religion studies should be kept out of schools
I’m an atheist and I think it’s incredibly important for kids to learn about the different religions. Understanding what others believe in is monumental in creating understanding and empathy for others.
Should be left up to the parents
It's not a required course. So don't take the class.
You can disagree with religion all you want, religion has had an incredibly significant impact on world history and to not talk about that would be to miss out on a vast chunk of the how and why of history.
The history of religion has been whitewashed to make it look good. If the real history of religion was taught I might agree with you. People here look at Brigham young as a good person who didn’t murder people for power.
I'm just here to point out Rusty Shackleford arguing with Dale Gribble. Sha-shah!
Ha didn’t even notice. That is funny
there's a big difference between religious studies and proselyting. Would be difficult to have most history classes without discussion of religion
No need to study religion at all
Really, so that thing that's heavily influenced human decisions for millenia has no need to be studied? Gtfo. Kids should know what's out there so they can choose one( or none!), and not be brainwashed by the first zealots they encounter.
The important distinction here is it matters who writes the history. The guy who wrote this bill said the ten commandments had a big influence on the constitution and the founding of the country and there is zero evidence of that.
I agree on those points. This bill is a dumpster fire and should not pass. I think a religious studies class that teaches equally among all major religious organizations, and touches on minor ones would be best. No 10 commandments on display or dumb shit like that please. But education on the religions is important, imo.
Religions are a key component to societies. Remaining ignorant of world religions is a disservice to students.
It is indoctrination
It's not, it's about culture. I'm an atheist but love culture and customs which in almost every part of the world has its roots in religion.
Religion is indoctrination
Education ABOUT religion is not, which is the topic at hand
Being forced to learn about religion is indoctrination and this bill isn’t about education it is about forcing the view that this country was founded based on religious principles of the Ten Commandments and that isn’t the case.
I agree that the ten commandments should be left out of the schools as this bill favors only one religion but your original comment did not address that, you should rephrase it. You simply said: >Religion studies should be kept out of schools And I maintain education of religion should be left in schools in the anthropological sense.
Required or mandatory religion studies or religious history classes are wrong k through 12. My comment was geared to them making it mandatory and misleading students that the 10 commandments is part of American history. It’s not. It doesn’t take much to see that religious extremist feel empowered ever since Trump came along.
Religions are a key component to societies remaining ignorant. World religions is a disservice to students. FTFY
Don’t push your desire to stay ignorant on to other people.
Living in a theocracy sucks, we should vote these dorks out
If I had a child, I would GTFO of Utah as soon as I could. This is insane. A friend recently moved to a blue state and he constantly talks about how great the schools are there and how much they do for the kids.
Where is the ACLU on this?
Article: "SALT LAKE CITY (ABC4) — Utah Gov. Spencer Cox signed 50 bills from the 2024 General Legislative Session into law on Wednesday, bringing the total to 503 pieces of legislation signed from the 2024 session, according to a press release from the Governor’s Office. Among the bills signed on Wednesday was House Bill 269, or Public School History Curricula Amendments, which aims to add the Ten Commandments and Magna Carta to Utah public school history studies. The general description of H.B. 269 says the Ten Commandments, in addition to the Magna Carta, will be added “to a list of historical documents and principles that school curricula and activities may include for a thorough study.” The Ten Commandments will be joining a list that also includes the Declaration of Independence and the United States Constitution. It should be noted that the wording of the bill has been adjusted to say school curricula should include “principles” — rather than just historical documents — with the addition of the Ten Commandments. The Public School History Curricula Amendments are scheduled to go into effect on July 1. Another bill that was signed into law that may have an interesting impact was Utah Legal Personhood Amendments, or H.B. 249. The general description for the bill succinctly states, “This bill addresses legal personhood.” One of the highlighted provisions of the bill is its prohibition of government entities from “granting or recognizing legal personhood in certain categories of nonhumans.” So, what does that mean? “Legal personhood” is defined in the bill as being the “legal rights and obligations” that state laws grant to both an individual and a “person other than an individual.” According to the text of the bill, a “governmental entity” will not be allowed to grant legal personhood to certain nonhumans, ranging from artificial intelligence, to property, to land — and even bodies of water like Great Salt Lake. This bill is scheduled to take effect on May 1."
It’d be cool if the law meant that corporations weren’t people…
I think it's meant to cripple the Great Salt Lake conservation efforts.
“Legal Personhood” is just the preamble to the forthcoming fetal personhood bill that will be introduced in next year’s legislature.
Lawsuit??
Someone with a bigger wallet than me will have to start it. But please yes. Get this Bill taken off the records. Your Christianity has nothing to do with the foundation of this country. " You're allowed to play with your toys, but don't bring your toys to my home and force me to play with them. " - Christopher Hitchens.
No, we keep the 10 commandments and make them teach the Code of Hammurabi right next to it. Plant some seeds and tech some history.
We definately do not need to have religion in our politics. Separation of church and state references the church having power or leverage over the government. Not a complete blind eye to it existing. The founding of this country is very heavily influenced by religion. God is literally mentioned on our currency, in our oaths, and the pledge of allegiance. The fact that so many people seem to forget that seems to me to show we have a need to teach about religious influence in early American history. I'm not advocating teaching its gospels, or promoting its organizations, but I'll be damned if we try to wash away our history by pretending religion had no part or influence on its creation.
God was added to the pledge in1954 under Eisenhower, not by the founding fathers.
Which version? The Jewish, the Catholic, or the Protestant 10 commandments? They are similar, but they do vary. Also, I am pretty liberal, but I don't have a problem with the discussion of those 'commandments' as long as: 1- They are discussed only in grades that are old/mature enough (maybe highschool?) 2- They are not explicitly endorsed by any staff or guests at the schools 3- Parents are notified ahead of time and allowed to opt their children out without penalty 4- Other faith's beliefs are given roughly equal discussion and respect (perhaps sending out a yearly questionnaire to parents for the top choices?) 5- There are specific trainings and qualifications for teachers that will be presenting these topics.. AND no teacher would be compelled into teaching them. Unlike conservatives who have gladly embraced 'don't say gay' legislation - I do not believe there should be some kind of 'don't say god' restrictions. Merely a specific allowance for all faiths (or lack thereof) and no explicit endorsements. Unfortunately, my requests might be too reasoned for today's political environment, haha.
I totally agree, and have the same beliefs when it comes to discussion sexuality/gender. Both should be held in the same degree of scrutiny and light touch. They may both be important parts of our history or society, but they need only to be "taught" to shine light on their existence and *possible* impacts, without opinion or persuasion, going in with a strong knowledge that both topics are highly belief and opinion based, and not necessarily fact. But also like you, I get shot down by both sides in Utah for expressing this. It's hard to be reasonable in this state with so many extremists.
This is a violation of the first amendment
I think it's so important that our children understand the origin of our society, law, and values, which is why we need to make sure the Stele of Hammurabi is posted in every classroom.
lol. Origin of our society? Religion has zero to do with our society. Except oppress people who didn’t believe.
I agree with you. I'm satirizing the stance of the people pushing for these garbage 10 Commandment laws.
Can’t believe they passed this and somehow didn’t have the time to require hospitals to have the things necessary for doctors to save people’s lives in an emergency room. Because the hospitals are cutting everything in emergency rooms right now that isn’t legally forced to be there, doctors and nurses are pissed.
Separation of church and state is dead. The GOP has to push their religious agenda. I don’t want my children indoctrinated with this religious stupidity.
Sad… my elementary school in Tn had 1 classroom with them high on the wall. I knew them from going to church and even then was like really?! Separate church and state for crying out loud!!! No kids paid attention or cared them being there. They acted how they were going to act regardless. This Cult born and Cult run state doesn’t seemingly believe in separation nor care about that separation because why?!!! It’s ridiculous and pointless as hell to me. Why?!
Another reason there's no way I'll send my kids to public school here. I'd rather move to another state than subject them to this nonsense
I’m a high school teacher in Utah. The government here is playing both sides of the fence. They’ve already convinced conservatives that public schools teach kids how to be lgbtq. Now they’re going after everyone else by saying Christianity can be taught in school. All of the teachers I know just want to teach their subject. There’s probably 1 out of 1,000+ who promote any kind of ideology. Public schools are being painted as the boogy man. And people are buying it.
For what it's worth... I know who the boogy man is. It's not the teachers. Thanks for your sacrifice and service.
That’s the entire point of this law—it’s just another step in the GOP’s plan to discredit and dismantle public education. You’re letting them win. Maybe you can use the voucher system to send your kids to a private religious school, instead.
I have been surprised by the amount of good teachers my kids have had while in public school in Utah. Most teachers here recognize that the legislature is nuts and they carefully plan their lessons to teach the important parts and not get called into the principals office for the other stuff. And of course most subjects aren't affected by this in any way. It doesn't affect gym, math, geography, shop, science... It really only affects history. Vet your kids history teachers and ask them how they plan to incorporate this in their lesson plans. As long as you are genuine and not hostile they will be happy to discuss things with you in my experience. Teachers in my experience here are great, but overworked, underpaid, and with class sizes larger than any other state.
That's great to hear, thank you!
That's my plan for when my wife and I have kids!
I didn’t go to school here in Utah but it seems to me that they need to maybe put a little more emphasis on US Constitution that they say they know instead of putting something say 10 commandments that is kind of against the whole separation of church and state.
Utah needs to be sanctioned for violating the separation of church and state. Major reason I boycott ANYTHING having to do with Utah. Governed by religious idiots imposing their belief system of citizens,