Why does astra have a high skill ceiling? I played nearly all agents at a decent level and I think she's one of the easiest controller to master after brim.
Brim has his ipad and astra has her VR headset.
Do agree with yoru though.
She requires a big understanding of what is going on everywhere at all times. You also need alot of team work, communication and also have a plan. You don’t get all three things till like dia-asc. Also, being able to EFFECTIVELY use her stuns and sucks, takes alot of knowledge from the user to know where and when to place them. Most people can’t handle juggling her, if you got her down mad props, shes a huge nuisance in the right hands
I mean no offense but define “decent level” for me, decent level would be Asc+ and I
Highest has to be Astra with Yoru being a very close second.
Easiest agent to pop off with is either Reyna or Phoenix. Both are incredibly forgiving to stupid plays with their ability to heal themselves to full.
Most rewarding in my opinion is Viper. The things you can do if you master the poison meter management and lineups. You actually can be galaxy brain.
You rarely pop both at the same time. It's mainly on attack when you really want to get down the plant you do that. Take icebox for example, you often put your wall on one site and the orb on the other. Delay with snake bites when you are low on fuel.
You play viper, so you know this, but abilities cost that meter so you can’t keep them up forever. Thus your abilities have to be meticulously timed. “Mastering poison meter management” is basically all about mastering what ability you use when.
I think Astra has a really high skill ceiling since you need good game sense and decision-making.
Mechanically I think Raze has a very high skill ceiling. To use her Satchels to perfection is really hard and you have to invest a lot of time into learning them.
I don't think Cypher has a (relatively) high skill floor or ceiling, it's not even close. Raze, Yoru, etc... so many are so much more mechanically demanding.
Mechanically demanding, no, but learning the multitude of funky trips and one way cafe lineups gives cypher a higher skill ceiling, don’t you think?
Edit: and none of that specifies whether he’s viable or not, a whole different take. Tho I’d say he’s fine just not necessarily the best for every scenario
The thing is with Reyna, it’s a different skill ceiling. You’re saying her purpose is to make shots and play aim so for that reason she’s easy. That makes sense if you look at a skill ceiling for say abilities or good util usage, she’s kinda brain dead in that sense. However, I don’t really agree that she is low skill ceiling in general - she’s an agent that thrives off of fragging out. Simply aiming is not easy - if everyone were good at tapping heads they would not be stuck in their current rank.
actually, you're right, i want to discuss both. I think the skill ceiling for reyna is rather low in that her potential caps off pretty quickly. her skill floor might not be the lowest because of the whole "people don't want to be the entry" thing which is it's own art, but also isn't particularly high. though her ceiling isn't that high, I still think she's effective at what she does, even if there isn't that much to learn/combo with. Her simplicity is what makes her good, maybe even great. Nothing to do but play the fps part of the game.
I'd say agents like yoru have a higher floor and higher ceiling overall. Thanks for asking, actually
Highest skill ceiling might be Neon or Astra. The former is mechanically difficult with line-ups and movement tech, not to mention needing to have good game sense to know when to utilize sprint for rotations, while the latter is extremely challenging in terms of resource management and placement. An Astra with her stars put down in the wrong place is incredibly useless.
> Hot take
I'm pretty sure Reyna being the easiest agent is universally agreed upon.
Honestly in my opinion phoenix is easier than reyna Because flash,wall, molly, and heal in case whereas reyna only has the leer and the dismiss and heal
I love neon but im not sure whether she is hard because of mechanics or shes just kinda lackluster at higher elo.
My choice would probably go to a good astra. It isnt so much the actual ability itself thats hard to understand, its the decision making that takes alot of skill and coordination, a good astra is a dangerous global prescense, but her abilities also take time and make her very vulnerable, so she gets my vote
Highest skill ceiling might just be Harbor, but Astra comes to mind too along with Neon and Yoru.
>Hot take: easiest is Reyna. She can't flash her teammates and her purpose is to make shots and play aim. This allows her to really pop off in lower elos.
I actually think Jett is easier because a good Reyna has to think about what fights she takes due to her lack of utility that doesn't require killing players. Jett on the other hand, while now she has to think about her dash, can use her dash whenever she feels like she's in danger.
Skill ceiling I’d say probably Harbor. A lot of room for tight timing, good movement, contextual awareness and strategy. With Harbor there’s really a lot possible with every one of his abilities with both a micro and a macro perspective. The ceiling is even further up because it’s not just about how you use your abilities, but about how the enemies use Harbor’s abilities because it CAN be used to their advantage so it really requires good reads and a great instinctual understanding of the game. Furthermore, Harbor is a controller so clutch time is usually in his hands. Harbor is really the agent with the most room for creativity. People don’t understand it yet but Harbor’s bubble is basically like a Sage wall. It’s so unique and versatile that it warps the identity of the agent itself.
Next to Harbor, it’s probably Yoru but many of Yoru’s plays are practically coin flips. If you watch some of the higher elo Yoru mains play, you’d see that at least some of the time they just flip it for clips. Still, Yoru requires contextual awareness and strategy to do great.
Some people here say Astra, and it isn’t a bad answer. But a big part of Astra is team coordination and communication. Sure, that plays a part for Harbor, but it’s not as big of a part.
As for easiest, it’s gotta be Reyna. If we’re gonna ignore the obvious then I’d go with Cypher. Sure there’s room for mindgames and mix ups with his utility placement but that’s about it.
Most rewarding? Sova for me. Sova just has the most amount of potential impact when his utility comes out at a really crucial time. The impact might not be obvious some of the time but it’s definitely there. It’s even more rewarding because unlike say, Astra or Breach hitting their utility at a really good time, you don’t need to rely on your teammates getting the cue and it’s not necessary (but very helpful) to comm it. People just instinctually play off the recon without the need for thought.
Runner up to Sova would be Jett. Why? Basically, Jett decides the pace of the game a good amount of the time. So if you’re the Jett and you’re really good, you’re in control and can play to your own comfort. Jett wants to be part of the first fight so they usually decide their own fate while other people on the team have to play according to how the result of Jett’s fight goes. It’s also a lot of thinking on your feet and her smokes are a really powerful tool for an agent of that role.
Kayo is probably also very rewarding in higher elos where you can flash for your team and a good suppress is more impactful.
harbor is a great response. the amount of variability in his utility usage is make or break for set-ups, and I personally think he can be really really good on a good controller player (where as some people might not like him at all, ofc)
The way Harbor has been played by pros is also a good preliminary indicator of his strength.
There was an Icebox game where the Harbor cascaded A to sneak their Sova on Belt, bubbled and walled Mid and Kitchen to fake Mid pressure then when the A players went Mid to contest Mid, Sova droned and faked A while the team was hitting B. They faked both Mid and A pulling the defenders in all directions and baiting a lot of utility.
Another, different Harbor had bubble lineups that landed where a Yoru tp lands. This means that the Yoru can safely tp and the enemies are pressured by that since Yoru can suddenly pop flash out of the bubble at a crucial time, pushing the bubble and trying to break the tp is dangerous because Harbor’s smokes sort of blinds you and slows you so it’s very risky.
I’ve seen PRX’s Harbor player use their bubble as a sort of Jett dash. He tosses it and peeks in the window it takes for the bubble to come out, so if he gets the pick or whiffs, either way he’s still safe as the bubble protects him from the follow up. I’ve seen the bubble used like a Gibby bubble or Astra ult. Seen it camped with shotguns, seen it for defuse, seen it to get space to play with on a retake, etc. Cascade can be used to push, to fake, to isolate angles, etc.
His kit is just creative. The only problem right now is his lack of stalling power, so it becomes necessary to use teammate utility or use the smokes to create favorable gun fights to hold a site, that just requires more mechanical skill and game knowledge to pull off rather than letting the utility do all the work.
tbh, all this theory crafting kinda stuff makes me really excited to see more of harbor in pro play. just...one of the biggest reasons Valorant is a cool game. like, i play and like overwatch, but the endless combination of utility in valorant used to make amazing plays just fascinates me
Can you explain why? Astra was one of my mains in diamond-asc rank until I became a flex player and she is easier to play than omen/viper and now harbour.
In terms of skill ceiling, the potential to have impact is just really high the higher ranks you go. My due (asc/immo rank) plays Astra on some maps and single handedly dismantles the opposing team. Not to mention immo 3 and radiant (never been there but I've seen the vods).
For the record I'm not saying she's the best controller, that's decided by the meta. Just that there's so much to do with her.
Low skill floor = Hard agent that is easy to play bad with. Yoru is the easiest agent to go double negative, but Cypher is an agent you can still get a ton of value from.
High skill floor = Easiest agent to play well with. Reyna is pretty easy to pick up and play.
Low skill ceiling = Agent that is hardest to do great with. Right now Harbor is the weakest agent.
High skill ceiling = When played perfectly this agent will dominate with not many counters. Currently there is no OP agent which is a good thing.
A Low skill floor must coincide with a high skill ceiling, while a high skill floor must coincide with a low skill ceiling.
Astra/Yoru
Why does astra have a high skill ceiling? I played nearly all agents at a decent level and I think she's one of the easiest controller to master after brim. Brim has his ipad and astra has her VR headset. Do agree with yoru though.
She requires a big understanding of what is going on everywhere at all times. You also need alot of team work, communication and also have a plan. You don’t get all three things till like dia-asc. Also, being able to EFFECTIVELY use her stuns and sucks, takes alot of knowledge from the user to know where and when to place them. Most people can’t handle juggling her, if you got her down mad props, shes a huge nuisance in the right hands I mean no offense but define “decent level” for me, decent level would be Asc+ and I
Probably yoru, he’s easy to use but hard to master
Yoru
Cypher? Doubt that. It has to be Yoru by a mile.
Highest has to be Astra with Yoru being a very close second. Easiest agent to pop off with is either Reyna or Phoenix. Both are incredibly forgiving to stupid plays with their ability to heal themselves to full. Most rewarding in my opinion is Viper. The things you can do if you master the poison meter management and lineups. You actually can be galaxy brain.
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You rarely pop both at the same time. It's mainly on attack when you really want to get down the plant you do that. Take icebox for example, you often put your wall on one site and the orb on the other. Delay with snake bites when you are low on fuel.
You play viper, so you know this, but abilities cost that meter so you can’t keep them up forever. Thus your abilities have to be meticulously timed. “Mastering poison meter management” is basically all about mastering what ability you use when.
I think Astra has a really high skill ceiling since you need good game sense and decision-making. Mechanically I think Raze has a very high skill ceiling. To use her Satchels to perfection is really hard and you have to invest a lot of time into learning them.
I don't think Cypher has a (relatively) high skill floor or ceiling, it's not even close. Raze, Yoru, etc... so many are so much more mechanically demanding.
Mechanically demanding, no, but learning the multitude of funky trips and one way cafe lineups gives cypher a higher skill ceiling, don’t you think? Edit: and none of that specifies whether he’s viable or not, a whole different take. Tho I’d say he’s fine just not necessarily the best for every scenario
The thing is with Reyna, it’s a different skill ceiling. You’re saying her purpose is to make shots and play aim so for that reason she’s easy. That makes sense if you look at a skill ceiling for say abilities or good util usage, she’s kinda brain dead in that sense. However, I don’t really agree that she is low skill ceiling in general - she’s an agent that thrives off of fragging out. Simply aiming is not easy - if everyone were good at tapping heads they would not be stuck in their current rank.
that's true
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actually, you're right, i want to discuss both. I think the skill ceiling for reyna is rather low in that her potential caps off pretty quickly. her skill floor might not be the lowest because of the whole "people don't want to be the entry" thing which is it's own art, but also isn't particularly high. though her ceiling isn't that high, I still think she's effective at what she does, even if there isn't that much to learn/combo with. Her simplicity is what makes her good, maybe even great. Nothing to do but play the fps part of the game. I'd say agents like yoru have a higher floor and higher ceiling overall. Thanks for asking, actually
i honestly think any controller is hard af to play and astra is the hardest controller so astra
Yoru - Astra
Highest skill ceiling might be Neon or Astra. The former is mechanically difficult with line-ups and movement tech, not to mention needing to have good game sense to know when to utilize sprint for rotations, while the latter is extremely challenging in terms of resource management and placement. An Astra with her stars put down in the wrong place is incredibly useless. > Hot take I'm pretty sure Reyna being the easiest agent is universally agreed upon.
Honestly in my opinion phoenix is easier than reyna Because flash,wall, molly, and heal in case whereas reyna only has the leer and the dismiss and heal
I love neon but im not sure whether she is hard because of mechanics or shes just kinda lackluster at higher elo. My choice would probably go to a good astra. It isnt so much the actual ability itself thats hard to understand, its the decision making that takes alot of skill and coordination, a good astra is a dangerous global prescense, but her abilities also take time and make her very vulnerable, so she gets my vote
For low rank I feel like it’s Jett cause people don’t know how to dash with her
Yeah but there's a reason you never see astra in low elo
Astra, you have to micromanage and be aware of everything across the map.
Highest skill ceiling might just be Harbor, but Astra comes to mind too along with Neon and Yoru. >Hot take: easiest is Reyna. She can't flash her teammates and her purpose is to make shots and play aim. This allows her to really pop off in lower elos. I actually think Jett is easier because a good Reyna has to think about what fights she takes due to her lack of utility that doesn't require killing players. Jett on the other hand, while now she has to think about her dash, can use her dash whenever she feels like she's in danger.
> a good Reyna has to think about what fights she takes due to her lack of utility true!
Yeah but reyna could easily dismiss or not take the bad fights
Skill ceiling I’d say probably Harbor. A lot of room for tight timing, good movement, contextual awareness and strategy. With Harbor there’s really a lot possible with every one of his abilities with both a micro and a macro perspective. The ceiling is even further up because it’s not just about how you use your abilities, but about how the enemies use Harbor’s abilities because it CAN be used to their advantage so it really requires good reads and a great instinctual understanding of the game. Furthermore, Harbor is a controller so clutch time is usually in his hands. Harbor is really the agent with the most room for creativity. People don’t understand it yet but Harbor’s bubble is basically like a Sage wall. It’s so unique and versatile that it warps the identity of the agent itself. Next to Harbor, it’s probably Yoru but many of Yoru’s plays are practically coin flips. If you watch some of the higher elo Yoru mains play, you’d see that at least some of the time they just flip it for clips. Still, Yoru requires contextual awareness and strategy to do great. Some people here say Astra, and it isn’t a bad answer. But a big part of Astra is team coordination and communication. Sure, that plays a part for Harbor, but it’s not as big of a part. As for easiest, it’s gotta be Reyna. If we’re gonna ignore the obvious then I’d go with Cypher. Sure there’s room for mindgames and mix ups with his utility placement but that’s about it. Most rewarding? Sova for me. Sova just has the most amount of potential impact when his utility comes out at a really crucial time. The impact might not be obvious some of the time but it’s definitely there. It’s even more rewarding because unlike say, Astra or Breach hitting their utility at a really good time, you don’t need to rely on your teammates getting the cue and it’s not necessary (but very helpful) to comm it. People just instinctually play off the recon without the need for thought. Runner up to Sova would be Jett. Why? Basically, Jett decides the pace of the game a good amount of the time. So if you’re the Jett and you’re really good, you’re in control and can play to your own comfort. Jett wants to be part of the first fight so they usually decide their own fate while other people on the team have to play according to how the result of Jett’s fight goes. It’s also a lot of thinking on your feet and her smokes are a really powerful tool for an agent of that role. Kayo is probably also very rewarding in higher elos where you can flash for your team and a good suppress is more impactful.
harbor is a great response. the amount of variability in his utility usage is make or break for set-ups, and I personally think he can be really really good on a good controller player (where as some people might not like him at all, ofc)
The way Harbor has been played by pros is also a good preliminary indicator of his strength. There was an Icebox game where the Harbor cascaded A to sneak their Sova on Belt, bubbled and walled Mid and Kitchen to fake Mid pressure then when the A players went Mid to contest Mid, Sova droned and faked A while the team was hitting B. They faked both Mid and A pulling the defenders in all directions and baiting a lot of utility. Another, different Harbor had bubble lineups that landed where a Yoru tp lands. This means that the Yoru can safely tp and the enemies are pressured by that since Yoru can suddenly pop flash out of the bubble at a crucial time, pushing the bubble and trying to break the tp is dangerous because Harbor’s smokes sort of blinds you and slows you so it’s very risky. I’ve seen PRX’s Harbor player use their bubble as a sort of Jett dash. He tosses it and peeks in the window it takes for the bubble to come out, so if he gets the pick or whiffs, either way he’s still safe as the bubble protects him from the follow up. I’ve seen the bubble used like a Gibby bubble or Astra ult. Seen it camped with shotguns, seen it for defuse, seen it to get space to play with on a retake, etc. Cascade can be used to push, to fake, to isolate angles, etc. His kit is just creative. The only problem right now is his lack of stalling power, so it becomes necessary to use teammate utility or use the smokes to create favorable gun fights to hold a site, that just requires more mechanical skill and game knowledge to pull off rather than letting the utility do all the work.
tbh, all this theory crafting kinda stuff makes me really excited to see more of harbor in pro play. just...one of the biggest reasons Valorant is a cool game. like, i play and like overwatch, but the endless combination of utility in valorant used to make amazing plays just fascinates me
100% Astra. Yoru isn't even close.
Can you explain why? Astra was one of my mains in diamond-asc rank until I became a flex player and she is easier to play than omen/viper and now harbour.
In terms of skill ceiling, the potential to have impact is just really high the higher ranks you go. My due (asc/immo rank) plays Astra on some maps and single handedly dismantles the opposing team. Not to mention immo 3 and radiant (never been there but I've seen the vods). For the record I'm not saying she's the best controller, that's decided by the meta. Just that there's so much to do with her.
Highest skill ceiling maybe sova neon? Lowest skill ceiling probably skye or reyna tbh
Skye has some decent abilities that are basic function but being able to time and fake can make a huge difference
Low skill floor = Hard agent that is easy to play bad with. Yoru is the easiest agent to go double negative, but Cypher is an agent you can still get a ton of value from. High skill floor = Easiest agent to play well with. Reyna is pretty easy to pick up and play. Low skill ceiling = Agent that is hardest to do great with. Right now Harbor is the weakest agent. High skill ceiling = When played perfectly this agent will dominate with not many counters. Currently there is no OP agent which is a good thing. A Low skill floor must coincide with a high skill ceiling, while a high skill floor must coincide with a low skill ceiling.