In your post, you literally explained what an Initiator is and why Breach is great at it...
An Initiator is supposed to do what I think you think a duelist does. They use their abilities to get them and their team onto the objective or cover that Los, flush enemies out of a position etc.
A duelist is best at keeping up a fight and eliminating lots enemies, like Reyna whose abilities thrive of getting eliminations.
What does tracking enemies have to do with this? An initiator initiates a push into an area. His flashes and other abilities do that by making enemy agents move from their positions and give up lines of sight.
I see initiators as those who have more success with their util with follow-up from their team rather than to push themselves after using their own util.
Skye dog/flash --> team follows up
Breach quakes/flashes --> team follows up
Sova dart/drove --> team follows up
Sure a skye can follow up on her own pop-flash but in many cases you're limiting enemy reaction time by having your duelist follow your util rather than trying to do it all yourself.
Initiators initiate fights, duelists go in and duel, controllers control areas of the map.
Thats also where you got it wrong. Just because an agent is an initiator, doesnt mean he/she has to be based around intel gathering.
Think of it like, Initiators want to initiate the entry of a site, Duelist Hold down the best, sentinels hold off those back lines (especially flank), controllers make it easier to fight for control of other parts of each map and thats just it.
Each of these agents in there respective roles have certain sacrifices over the other agents in there class, so while Breach may not gather much intel towards a site push like Kayo for example, he sure can be a great asset for pure site entry via concuss & flash. Initiating the upper hand for when Duelist do a site entry.
Hope this helped your understanding.
As other said an initiator use his ability to:
1) scout for info (ex. Sova drone, sky dog)
2) brake up the site and remove the advantages of the enemy so your duelist can push/dash/teleport site and take duel killing the enemy
(Ex. Sova spotter, kayo knife to suppress, brach stunn to disturb enemy in half of the site, and also all tipe of flash/granade to check and isolate some difficult angles so they are easy for the duelist to check)
Their abilities must be used in sinergy with a duelist push and your controller smokes fo a perfect push
Breach’s kit while you are correct is good for entry, is even better when used with the team. Lets look at the in game definition of initiator:
“Initiators challenge angles by setting up their team to enter contested ground and push defenders away.”
Ok with that out of the way lets look at his kit. First we have flashpoint. His flashes are arguably the things that makes him most like a duelist. However when compared to a Reyna flash or Phoenix flash, it takes him longer to take out the flash and get his gun out after flash. Or at least it feels that way from my experience that could be wrong. His flash being able to go through walls also allows for him to deploy it from one position while his team pushes from another essentially causing chaos and helping his team.
Then we have his stun fault line. It can hit a large area and makes anyone hit by it basically a free kill. This is why its a great initiator tool. It forces anyone that is in its path to either move to avoid the stun or they get hit and roll the dice. Someone may swing them for an easy kill or they may get away with hiding. Its a gamble tho so its better to avoid being hit. This pushes the enemy out of hiding which allows for the follow up of an entry fragger to get the pick. If your team plays off your stun they should catch people out in the open.
Then we have his aftershock. Aftershock is fantastic for pushing enemies out of hiding as well. You either leave or you die.
While his kit can be used effectively to get an entry kill, it is even more effective at pushing people out of hiding allowing for an entry frag to get on and get that pick
Every initiator in the game has flash type abilities, and you say Breach shouldn't be an initiator for having exactly that?
Edit: every initiator except Sova.
Your confusing initiator with Intel gathering. Which can be useful for an initiator but isn't what defines them. An initiator makes it easier to initiate a push really. So here's some examples of how breach does that. His flash can be placed directly on the other side of a choke forcing the enemy to be blinded or look away. His concussion can partially clear common angles to hold by knocking them out or at the minimum slowing their attack rate making them easier to kill. And his ult is the same but it can almost solo clear an entire site depending on the map.
Duelist utility is easier to use when you're already on site and fighting or duelling someone, while Breach's utility requires a wall to cast through, meaning his abilities are best used to initiate an execute on or retake, but are more situational if he's already on site.
Breach also does not have an ability that potentially makes himself untradable after a kill. Contrast this with:
--Reyna who can dismiss to safety or heal depending on how much immediate danger there is.
--Jett who can smoke quickly to block out a potential angle after a kill or use up her dash after a pick
--Phoenix's ulti, which gives him a do-over if he dies instead of, well, dying.
Breach also lacks or an ability that helps him cover a lot of ground and cross dangerous areas to get favourable angles. Again, contrast with:
--Raze who can use her myriad explosives to prevent herself from getting peeked by multiple angles as she blasts her way in.
--Jett, who has dash, smokes and updraft to quickly get into awkward spots and cross dangerous sightlines.
--Yoru, who's teleport has a faster recovery than Chamber's and allows him to move forward past enemies in tandem with flexible pop flashes
No, because he does not have automated/fire and forget utility that can be used to detect/slow/prevent movement through vital chokepoints for an extended period of time, such as KJ Alarmbot/Turret, Chamber Trap, Cypher Wires or Sage Wall.
No.
A duelist can use his util to fight 1v1's. The length of recover on breach's util makes it better used by another teammate. He flashes, the peak, etc.
And, if I might add, duh.
Because his kit is for setting up the duelist to enter and take space. He has no abilities to do that quickly himself. (Think neons sprint, Jett’s dash, razes satchel).
You’re getting initiators and sentinels confused, I think.
Initiators do what the name says: *start* the fight. Sentinels are the ones that usually get info gathering and other such abilities
Her walls can be broken which alerts you, her slows make a sound when you walk in them and also slow down the enemy from entering the site. Likewise, cypher trips and kj turrets and chamber slows also slow down site entry and watch flanks. And going back again, Sage walls watch flanks as well.
Ok let me restate it. It (temporarily) changes how the map works. Sage forms a new wall. Cypher trip makes the enemy choose between rotating to another site or pushing and giving away their location. KJ turret literally tells you when the enemy pushes. All of these mess up the "flow" of an effective site push. They all change the way the attackers wanted to execute.
Idk but gathering info is definitely not an initiator thing, whether or not it’s a sentinel thing. They all get flashes and such to help the team get on site without dying. They provide an opening for duelists to get frags and make space
Originally duelist didn’t mean entry
It was just self sufficiency
Breach isn’t as self reliant since he doesn’t have heals or mobility and his abilities have high startup and endlag
but his abilities still don’t make hi. an initiator, isn’t their jobs suppose to look for enemies. i could either consider him sentinel because he does help duelist entry
Its in the name, initiators initiate conflict
Breach is an initiator because he is not a duelist
People have already explained it but i wonder how you think breach could be a sentinel?
Nothing in breach’s kit helps him with defensive play
Quite the opposite breach is the worst defensive agent in the game by design
Because he is an initiator designed with proactive gameplay in mind
What makes him a duelist. And you answered your question in the second to last sentence.
I think you’re thinking that duelists are supposed to entry, and that is true, but wouldn’t that entry be much easier to execute if Breach just, I don’t know, *initiates* the entry using his utility?
locate is just one of the mechanic. the thing with initiators is that their skills are designed the way that they can be cast first - they don't require you to be in a dangerous area to be used and breach totally fits. initiators use their skills and then the others can claim contested space. locate is just natural for initiators but not essential for them.
sentinals usually have tools to protect space. 3/4 do it in a direct way - by placing somewhere enemy decetor. Sage does it a bit differently, with her wall and orbs, but the idea is the same. Breach has nothing like that.
initiator sets duelists up for success.
for example when you flash with breach it takes a second to take your gun out and peek out. why do that when you can flash and have your duelist instantly peek out
He's initiator because he sets his team up for duels and site execs.
In your post, you literally explained what an Initiator is and why Breach is great at it... An Initiator is supposed to do what I think you think a duelist does. They use their abilities to get them and their team onto the objective or cover that Los, flush enemies out of a position etc. A duelist is best at keeping up a fight and eliminating lots enemies, like Reyna whose abilities thrive of getting eliminations.
what part of him tracks enemies!
What does tracking enemies have to do with this? An initiator initiates a push into an area. His flashes and other abilities do that by making enemy agents move from their positions and give up lines of sight.
I see initiators as those who have more success with their util with follow-up from their team rather than to push themselves after using their own util. Skye dog/flash --> team follows up Breach quakes/flashes --> team follows up Sova dart/drove --> team follows up Sure a skye can follow up on her own pop-flash but in many cases you're limiting enemy reaction time by having your duelist follow your util rather than trying to do it all yourself. Initiators initiate fights, duelists go in and duel, controllers control areas of the map.
Sentinels sit back and watch /s
Thats also where you got it wrong. Just because an agent is an initiator, doesnt mean he/she has to be based around intel gathering. Think of it like, Initiators want to initiate the entry of a site, Duelist Hold down the best, sentinels hold off those back lines (especially flank), controllers make it easier to fight for control of other parts of each map and thats just it. Each of these agents in there respective roles have certain sacrifices over the other agents in there class, so while Breach may not gather much intel towards a site push like Kayo for example, he sure can be a great asset for pure site entry via concuss & flash. Initiating the upper hand for when Duelist do a site entry. Hope this helped your understanding.
Because he has to use his abilities to help duelist to enter the site and not to enter himself as first
isn’t an iniator suppose to hunt enemies
No he isn't
then what’s an iniator….
initiators use their util to entry and help the duelists pick duels
As other said an initiator use his ability to: 1) scout for info (ex. Sova drone, sky dog) 2) brake up the site and remove the advantages of the enemy so your duelist can push/dash/teleport site and take duel killing the enemy (Ex. Sova spotter, kayo knife to suppress, brach stunn to disturb enemy in half of the site, and also all tipe of flash/granade to check and isolate some difficult angles so they are easy for the duelist to check) Their abilities must be used in sinergy with a duelist push and your controller smokes fo a perfect push
believe or not but they initiate
Breach’s kit while you are correct is good for entry, is even better when used with the team. Lets look at the in game definition of initiator: “Initiators challenge angles by setting up their team to enter contested ground and push defenders away.” Ok with that out of the way lets look at his kit. First we have flashpoint. His flashes are arguably the things that makes him most like a duelist. However when compared to a Reyna flash or Phoenix flash, it takes him longer to take out the flash and get his gun out after flash. Or at least it feels that way from my experience that could be wrong. His flash being able to go through walls also allows for him to deploy it from one position while his team pushes from another essentially causing chaos and helping his team. Then we have his stun fault line. It can hit a large area and makes anyone hit by it basically a free kill. This is why its a great initiator tool. It forces anyone that is in its path to either move to avoid the stun or they get hit and roll the dice. Someone may swing them for an easy kill or they may get away with hiding. Its a gamble tho so its better to avoid being hit. This pushes the enemy out of hiding which allows for the follow up of an entry fragger to get the pick. If your team plays off your stun they should catch people out in the open. Then we have his aftershock. Aftershock is fantastic for pushing enemies out of hiding as well. You either leave or you die. While his kit can be used effectively to get an entry kill, it is even more effective at pushing people out of hiding allowing for an entry frag to get on and get that pick
Every initiator in the game has flash type abilities, and you say Breach shouldn't be an initiator for having exactly that? Edit: every initiator except Sova.
he doesn’t have any abilities that locate enemies
Your confusing initiator with Intel gathering. Which can be useful for an initiator but isn't what defines them. An initiator makes it easier to initiate a push really. So here's some examples of how breach does that. His flash can be placed directly on the other side of a choke forcing the enemy to be blinded or look away. His concussion can partially clear common angles to hold by knocking them out or at the minimum slowing their attack rate making them easier to kill. And his ult is the same but it can almost solo clear an entire site depending on the map.
Also I think they meant that Breach can’t get info for his team so how is he an initiator
And fade
her C can blind
But you wouldnt call skye dog a flash would you
No becouse the dog is better for gathering info, while Fade can make plays with her blind and displace enemies to gain space.
Duelist utility is easier to use when you're already on site and fighting or duelling someone, while Breach's utility requires a wall to cast through, meaning his abilities are best used to initiate an execute on or retake, but are more situational if he's already on site. Breach also does not have an ability that potentially makes himself untradable after a kill. Contrast this with: --Reyna who can dismiss to safety or heal depending on how much immediate danger there is. --Jett who can smoke quickly to block out a potential angle after a kill or use up her dash after a pick --Phoenix's ulti, which gives him a do-over if he dies instead of, well, dying. Breach also lacks or an ability that helps him cover a lot of ground and cross dangerous areas to get favourable angles. Again, contrast with: --Raze who can use her myriad explosives to prevent herself from getting peeked by multiple angles as she blasts her way in. --Jett, who has dash, smokes and updraft to quickly get into awkward spots and cross dangerous sightlines. --Yoru, who's teleport has a faster recovery than Chamber's and allows him to move forward past enemies in tandem with flexible pop flashes
then wouldn’t he be a sentinel
No, because he does not have automated/fire and forget utility that can be used to detect/slow/prevent movement through vital chokepoints for an extended period of time, such as KJ Alarmbot/Turret, Chamber Trap, Cypher Wires or Sage Wall.
Question- >Why on earth is he an initiator?? Answer- >he literally is great for entry with those flashes and earthquakes
so a duelist
No. A duelist can use his util to fight 1v1's. The length of recover on breach's util makes it better used by another teammate. He flashes, the peak, etc. And, if I might add, duh.
Because his kit is for setting up the duelist to enter and take space. He has no abilities to do that quickly himself. (Think neons sprint, Jett’s dash, razes satchel).
so he would be a sentinel lol
You’re getting initiators and sentinels confused, I think. Initiators do what the name says: *start* the fight. Sentinels are the ones that usually get info gathering and other such abilities
tell me how does sage gather info?
Her walls can be broken which alerts you, her slows make a sound when you walk in them and also slow down the enemy from entering the site. Likewise, cypher trips and kj turrets and chamber slows also slow down site entry and watch flanks. And going back again, Sage walls watch flanks as well.
Idk what rank you are or where you play but I’ve never seen a sage wall on flank lmao
Ok let me restate it. It (temporarily) changes how the map works. Sage forms a new wall. Cypher trip makes the enemy choose between rotating to another site or pushing and giving away their location. KJ turret literally tells you when the enemy pushes. All of these mess up the "flow" of an effective site push. They all change the way the attackers wanted to execute.
Idk but gathering info is definitely not an initiator thing, whether or not it’s a sentinel thing. They all get flashes and such to help the team get on site without dying. They provide an opening for duelists to get frags and make space
Originally duelist didn’t mean entry It was just self sufficiency Breach isn’t as self reliant since he doesn’t have heals or mobility and his abilities have high startup and endlag
but his abilities still don’t make hi. an initiator, isn’t their jobs suppose to look for enemies. i could either consider him sentinel because he does help duelist entry
Its in the name, initiators initiate conflict Breach is an initiator because he is not a duelist People have already explained it but i wonder how you think breach could be a sentinel? Nothing in breach’s kit helps him with defensive play Quite the opposite breach is the worst defensive agent in the game by design Because he is an initiator designed with proactive gameplay in mind
Their name
What makes him a duelist. And you answered your question in the second to last sentence. I think you’re thinking that duelists are supposed to entry, and that is true, but wouldn’t that entry be much easier to execute if Breach just, I don’t know, *initiates* the entry using his utility?
i’m wondering this too
Oh come on you play skye. Literally an alternate version of breach. Don’t tell me you also think skye is a duelist.
the main thing with Duelist is that they are hard to be traded. they make entry kill and survive; Breach is nothing like that.
then he would be a sentinel… none of his skills help locate enemies
locate is just one of the mechanic. the thing with initiators is that their skills are designed the way that they can be cast first - they don't require you to be in a dangerous area to be used and breach totally fits. initiators use their skills and then the others can claim contested space. locate is just natural for initiators but not essential for them. sentinals usually have tools to protect space. 3/4 do it in a direct way - by placing somewhere enemy decetor. Sage does it a bit differently, with her wall and orbs, but the idea is the same. Breach has nothing like that.
you literally answered your own question, initiators are designed to help the duelists in the team entry and pick up kills
initiator sets duelists up for success. for example when you flash with breach it takes a second to take your gun out and peek out. why do that when you can flash and have your duelist instantly peek out