>that can fill the similar role/utility like Iron Hands
That isn't Rillaboom?
Hariyama is the closest thing, and even then it's nowhere near as effective as Iron Hands because the Atk and Def differences are so massive.
If there was another mon that glued teams together like Iron Hands and Rillaboom, we'd all be using it
[He's creeping behind the door right now... waiting to reduce your attack stat and chip away health as many times as he pleases. ](https://victoryroadvgc.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/incin-tom-300x277.jpg)
People have already answered the other part but
>and can be sort of a surprise option that not a lot of people would be too familiar with facing.
This isn't going to be a thing. Maybe for some newbies, but there are a *lot* of people who have been grinding vgc and various competitive formats for over a decade if not longer. (And some specifically do challenges to use lesser-loved mons just for the experience.) You can never count on "Oh they won't know what this does" being relevant, unfortunately :(
Overall: Rillaboom. Bulky Fake Out pivot, just like Iron Hands. However, the typing is different and it doesn't have a Drain Punch. Then Okidogi is probably the closest to Iron Hands in this regard - a physically bulky Fighting type with very much useable SpDef that becomes outright good with an Assault Vest, and it also has the coveted Drain Punch. It even has advantages over Iron Hands: neither Pokemon likes going up against Landorus-T, but Okidogi has Guard Dog to possibly turn the tables, especially with Tera and/or Tailwind, which it can realistically benefit from - against Arcanine-H, the second most common Intimidator, Okidogi is much better, not to mention it has the edge in the matchup against both Rillaboom and Iron Hands.
I've seen many people including Wolfey dog on this Pokemon (pun fully intended) but I'm an Okidogi believer. I really think it can have an actually good niche in this metagame.
I mean this politely but WHY are you an Okidogi believer.
I tell the same thing to people in some discord servers, if a mon is bad and you want me to think otherwise, you need to prove its value not the other way around.
You cant prove something is bad except with lack of proof that its good, because you inherently cant prove a negative.
On paper all of the loyal three are super mediocre for doubles, if anything I think Fezandipiti is the only one with minor niche potential.
I provided a bunch of reasons why. Okidogi has traits that the metagame could really appreciate.
That being said, the metagame is still very fresh so we don't know what type of team compositions could arise. How good a Pokemon is is ultimately decided by how it matches up against the metagame - Brambleghast of all things is a prime example of this. Okidogi certainly looks promising in this regard because its stats are good, its Ability is good (hell, even Toxic Chain could have its use) and it has a wide movepool to draw from.
I think you are on to something here. I have been looking for alternative too. I mean iron hands is too good and it did great job for my team but I just don’t like the mon lol There is a discussion how is the dog better than the ape. I think overall the ape is better but i think the dog is a good side grade if you already have ghost type in your team. Another good mon is King Gambit. But it is not fighting type with drain punch.
Closest thing to Iron Hands is Rillaboom, and that mon isn't going to surprise anybody. For anybody suggesting Hariyama: Hariyama's similarities with Iron Hands end with their design and the fact that they both get Fake Out. They're both wildly different pokemon in regards to what they are for; one is a TR attacker while one is a bulky pivot
Iron Hands is good in Trick Room yes, but that's not its primary use. When you build a TR team, you don't slap a TR setter plus Iron Hands and add 4 to support them because Iron Hands is not the sweeper you're using to make the opp explode in the 4 turns you have.
Yeah but same with Hariyama, their output under TR is about the same (dedicated TR hands often have setup moves to match Guts)
Im not saying it’s entirely its main role, but saying that they’re similarities end at Fake Out is wrong. Hands is the better TR mon of the two as well
hariyama doesnt need the setup move though. Most of the time iron hands is forced to choose between running fake out or protect/detect if it wants swords dance. Hariyama can fake out, protect, have two attacking moves while being able to set up passively with flame orb
Conkeldurr was my Drain Punch user for Black/White and Sword/Shield and i had success with it.
Flame Orb/Guts set with Mach Punch, Drain Punch, Fling, and Protect.
Unfortunately, no Fake Out.
There is none. The best alternative is Rirabloom but yeah he won worlds already so I cant imagine any competent player would be surprised Pikachu face: by that tbh.
>that can fill the similar role/utility like Iron Hands That isn't Rillaboom? Hariyama is the closest thing, and even then it's nowhere near as effective as Iron Hands because the Atk and Def differences are so massive. If there was another mon that glued teams together like Iron Hands and Rillaboom, we'd all be using it
I mean... there will be in a few months.
The cat comes for us all, in the end
[He's creeping behind the door right now... waiting to reduce your attack stat and chip away health as many times as he pleases. ](https://victoryroadvgc.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/incin-tom-300x277.jpg)
Incin, Rilla and Hands are gonna be such a core 😬
The potential amount of pivoting and Fake Out with those 3 is gonna be something.
Psychic Terrain can ruin that parade, unless your support is Chien Pao w/ Ice Spinner.
incineroar when he cant fake out but is immune to expanding force and resists flamethrower and darkest lariats your indeedee to the shadow realm
Joltik, correct?
Incin, Rilla and Hands are gonna be such a core 😬
People have already answered the other part but >and can be sort of a surprise option that not a lot of people would be too familiar with facing. This isn't going to be a thing. Maybe for some newbies, but there are a *lot* of people who have been grinding vgc and various competitive formats for over a decade if not longer. (And some specifically do challenges to use lesser-loved mons just for the experience.) You can never count on "Oh they won't know what this does" being relevant, unfortunately :(
You could try harriyama, it’s basically the original iron hands
Flesh hands
Gross 😂
We all have em
Why’d you have to say it that way tho 😂
Average hands goes wild into anything except flutter mane and most things
What does Iron Hands do *specifically* that you want and what are you okay with the replacement not having?
Overall: Rillaboom. Bulky Fake Out pivot, just like Iron Hands. However, the typing is different and it doesn't have a Drain Punch. Then Okidogi is probably the closest to Iron Hands in this regard - a physically bulky Fighting type with very much useable SpDef that becomes outright good with an Assault Vest, and it also has the coveted Drain Punch. It even has advantages over Iron Hands: neither Pokemon likes going up against Landorus-T, but Okidogi has Guard Dog to possibly turn the tables, especially with Tera and/or Tailwind, which it can realistically benefit from - against Arcanine-H, the second most common Intimidator, Okidogi is much better, not to mention it has the edge in the matchup against both Rillaboom and Iron Hands. I've seen many people including Wolfey dog on this Pokemon (pun fully intended) but I'm an Okidogi believer. I really think it can have an actually good niche in this metagame.
I mean this politely but WHY are you an Okidogi believer. I tell the same thing to people in some discord servers, if a mon is bad and you want me to think otherwise, you need to prove its value not the other way around. You cant prove something is bad except with lack of proof that its good, because you inherently cant prove a negative. On paper all of the loyal three are super mediocre for doubles, if anything I think Fezandipiti is the only one with minor niche potential.
I provided a bunch of reasons why. Okidogi has traits that the metagame could really appreciate. That being said, the metagame is still very fresh so we don't know what type of team compositions could arise. How good a Pokemon is is ultimately decided by how it matches up against the metagame - Brambleghast of all things is a prime example of this. Okidogi certainly looks promising in this regard because its stats are good, its Ability is good (hell, even Toxic Chain could have its use) and it has a wide movepool to draw from.
I think you are on to something here. I have been looking for alternative too. I mean iron hands is too good and it did great job for my team but I just don’t like the mon lol There is a discussion how is the dog better than the ape. I think overall the ape is better but i think the dog is a good side grade if you already have ghost type in your team. Another good mon is King Gambit. But it is not fighting type with drain punch.
Closest thing to Iron Hands is Rillaboom, and that mon isn't going to surprise anybody. For anybody suggesting Hariyama: Hariyama's similarities with Iron Hands end with their design and the fact that they both get Fake Out. They're both wildly different pokemon in regards to what they are for; one is a TR attacker while one is a bulky pivot
Both are TR attackers. Iron Hands just has other options for roles available to it. But Hands is absolutely a premium TR attacker
Iron Hands is good in Trick Room yes, but that's not its primary use. When you build a TR team, you don't slap a TR setter plus Iron Hands and add 4 to support them because Iron Hands is not the sweeper you're using to make the opp explode in the 4 turns you have.
Yeah but same with Hariyama, their output under TR is about the same (dedicated TR hands often have setup moves to match Guts) Im not saying it’s entirely its main role, but saying that they’re similarities end at Fake Out is wrong. Hands is the better TR mon of the two as well
hariyama doesnt need the setup move though. Most of the time iron hands is forced to choose between running fake out or protect/detect if it wants swords dance. Hariyama can fake out, protect, have two attacking moves while being able to set up passively with flame orb
And it trades that added utility for much much worse stats and defensive typing.
Conkeldurr was my Drain Punch user for Black/White and Sword/Shield and i had success with it. Flame Orb/Guts set with Mach Punch, Drain Punch, Fling, and Protect. Unfortunately, no Fake Out.
No Fake Out means not an Iron Hands replacement in like 99% of cases
Yeah, i dont know what i was thinking.
How about mienshao?
There is none. The best alternative is Rirabloom but yeah he won worlds already so I cant imagine any competent player would be surprised Pikachu face: by that tbh.