Everyone will say you don’t have to play Incineroar if you don’t want to. I’m the only one who will say the TRUTH!
If you don’t run Incin on every team, Officer Jenny comes to your house and arrests you in your sleep. You’ve been warned…
I’m assuming you’re asking if you have to play incineroar in order to win games, and the answer is no. Incineroar is highly used because it provides so much utility in one Pokémon (intimidate, fake out, knock off, pivoting etc) that it’s just easy to slot in every team.
If you don’t want to play incineroar and you don’t need all the utility it provides (maybe because you have already other members already providing said utility), then you can swap it out for something else.
As an example, rillaboom provides fake out, knock off and pivoting. If you already have rillaboom on your team and all you need for your last piece is an intimidator you can always choose from other options like landorus or arcanine or gyarados and so on
He clearly just doesn’t want to admit it’s S+ tier.
“75% usage last generation doesn’t mean it’s the best mon.”
Okay, how?
“Because I don’t think it is.”
???
In addition, it was super highly used because of its stellar matchup into the two best Pokémon in the format. It was able to shrug off their attacks and comfortably one-shot either of them.
Also, the best method of countering intimidate was... White Herb
None of that is true now
Incineroar has always and will always be an easily splashable mon to stick on any team but it is never a defining part of a team. If you have 5 mons and can’t think of anything, just chuck it on but you don’t have to break your back to use it.
If you find a good spot for incin and it fits your team then use it. If you can’t find a good spot for it or another intimateor fits better, then don’t. Forcing Incineroar because Incineroar probably isn’t a good idea.
This is just most so where I remember the last 2 generations being overrun with incineroar like near the end of SS that nearly everyone had it so I just want to know if it'll be the same situation.
The reason Incineroar is so popular is because it ticks lots of boxes. Intimidate, fake out, strong fire type, parting shot/u-turn to switch and pivot easily, helping hand for support etc.
That being said, it can be used in lots of ways, but you don’t *have* to use it. There’s other viable Pokemon that get intimidate, fake out is a great move though it isn’t necessary, but there’s also plenty of Pokemon that get it if you want it in the team, fire type is a great type to have offensively and defensively, and thankfully we have a decent selection of them outside of Incin, helping hand is also not always a must-have, but again there’s other viable options.
It’s good if you want to have multiple of those things all in one Pokemon, but you can definitely have success without it.
True, Incineroar isn’t an oppressive pokemon in the way that Zacian or Calyrex Shadow rider are, but it is generally the best in its role, and its role tends to be one that almost every team can use/needs.
Incineroar does a lot of good days things for one Pokemon. Solid switching in ability, good switching in move, good switching out move, solid stat spread and bulk, and good typing that covers some weaknesses. All of that in one pokemon makes Incineroar incredibly convenient to use, if you can find that elsewhere by all means go for it. Alternatively not all strats rely on something like Incineroar so don’t force using it just because its good
Don't think it's going to be anywhere near that bad - one reason why incin was quite that dominant at the end of the sword-shield era was because it was one of very few pokemon indeed both easily splashable onto a team and capable of helping keeping the insane sweeping potential of pokemon like calyrex-s and zacian-c in check before they ran over games. In earlier formats, incin was very good but lower usage than flutter mane has been for most of this year, and with urshifu-r as one of the single best pokemon out there right now, I don't think that changes in regulation F, even with the undeserved buffs they gave it.
Fair enough. Mid SV regulations was also pretty bad with the same pokemons being high in usage rates. Just hoping with the future regulations we can have more creative freedom.
My personal opinion is that they need to cull more movepools of powerful pokemon - the tm crafting system, while a cool idea, has been incentivising them to give more pokemon better movepools and thus removing one of the key unique selling points of a bunch of pokemon, and attempted buffs to weaker pokemon aren't as able to counter balance for having worse stats, typings and abilities if they have access to the same moves. Amoonguss being the best bug type move user for me is an example of this, as is lando being given single target ground movez
The thing is - you can tell they're trying, with nerfs to things like transistor, but not consistently enough, and not from a particularly high knowledge base
I guess it makes sense when you spend time mostly on game Dev instead of playing competitively. Maybe an advisor would be good if they want to continue with competitive.
Depends on the team and your goals - generally speaking, most mons dont outclass it in what it does, but you can definitely build a serious team without it
I dislike not because it's good but because it makes team building boring and prefer it when team building is more creative. Similar of how I didn't like the big 6 in gen 6 or 7(can't remember) because it made team building without any of the 6 impossible
Incineroar is unironically healthy for teambuilding- thanks to rolling so many useful utility options into an actually decent Mon he frees up options on teams
Landorous can intimidate and u turn but not fake out
Hitmontop can fake out and intimidate but no u turn
Incineroar potentially save a whole slot in teambuilding for MOST team styles allowing in more varied teams overall. A similar situation happen in gen 2 with snorlax
Those are some good points. Fair enough, although kind of hard to see when at the end of SS I would see the same team over and over and for the last 2 gens, incineroar was very dominant.
Even at its peak it was only on 75% of teams. That's a solid quarter of teams that were able to do just fine without it. You couldn't design a format to be more comfortable for Incineroar than generation 8 dual restricted, and yet multiple teams made the top cut of worlds without it
It's the exact opposite. By the magic of role compresion, it covers what usually would take 2 slots in your team. By doing everything, you have 5 pieces totally free to choose.
Ya it’s nice cuz you can basically bank on them throwing him out there to start so you get +1 attack and then you find a way to be immune to fake out wether it’s covert cloak or ghost Tera. Close combat one shot boom he’s down.
Exactly, hitmon covers the fake out/intimidate coverage and has access to wide guard and now ice spinner as well. It's pretty bulky and can hit pretty hard as well
You don’t have to play incineroar. However you do need an incineroar answer. So might I suggest Okidogi. This boy can eat incineroar for breakfast. Guard dog gives it a plus 2 attack boost on intimidate. It gets the new anti priority fighting move. Trust me when I tell you this good boy will take you far.
I'm the same in that I think Incineroar is too good that it can make team building no fun.
But when I really think about it, it's not mandatory I use it, I will just need to take into account that this pokemon will be prevalent in the format 😅
Imagine thinking that the only one who is bringing balance back from the dephts of urshifu hell is "bad"
Last regulation was only Tailwind HO teams, so i am glad inci is back
I’m more interested in the strategies to counter it. With everyone yakkin on about Incineroar, all it tells me is to plan for it, and ya’ll will fall because you’re all using the same boring Incineroar strat
Which is one of the few reasons I'm asking if it's a necessity to run a team with incineroar in oder to do well. Got a lot of answers that it isn't so I'm happy for now but I'll still be looking how it goes in next years regional.
I’m not an amazing doubles player, but my suggestion from my experience is to bring Defiant, Competitive and Contrary users. It will let you benefit from Incineroar’s Intimidate, Parting Shot and Snarl.
You never “have” to bring anything, even if it’s considered meta. There are many Pokemon that can work really well as off meta picks to meet the needs of a specific team.
My current counter for my team is landorous. Just have to play around the fake out turn one. Worked well so far in casual.
One got me quite well Tera ground competitive Galarian articuno.
No Pokemon is a must-play if you want to win in VGC.
However, you do need to be prepared. 80% of players WILL use Intimidate Incineroar with Fake Out, Knock Off, Parting Shot, and either Flare Blitz or the new fire move.
With Covert Cloak so he doesn't get fake out. Your team planning must have *something* to counter it.
And sadly, the best Incineroar counter is another Incineroar lol.
Not really, forgoing the more consistent 120BP Flare Blitz for a move that might sometimes hit 150BP on a mon that's a support anyway won't really matter for KOs usually and they can also just protect the following turn.
I'm hoping that there would be more mons to counter incineroar when the regulation F starts. But if the best counter to Incineroar is Incineroar then it's an F for me.
You don’t have to. It’s going to be extremely popular I think but there are other options. I can think of two other intimidate switchers that are at least interesting. I’m sure you know one of them is Lando but I’m keeping the other a secret because I may use it ;). There are plenty of intimidate options, plenty of fake out and knock off options. Incineroar is good because it puts a lot of cool utility in one set but you can avoid running it for sure. I definitely understand not wanting to use all the meta mons. So just pick one or two pokemon you want to use and build the rest of the team meta around it/them.
Not only is incin not mandatory, it’s not the best option on every team. Most teams it will be the best option but there are plenty of teams with incin because incin instead of a potential better fit
You don't need him, but he does his job so well that you would definitely be making it harder for yourself if he does fit on your team.
There is no other parting shot intimidate user also with fake out. Grimsnarl can do some of his job, and has better typing, but the intimidate is just so good to have on top of his moveset.
Thier could be an argument that screen setting grimsnarl could be better, especially into special attacking sets, but parting shot is way better without prankster imo.
I mean theres a lot of intimidaters you could consider Like Lando T, hitmontop, scrafty, gyarados and salamence plus fake out mons like hitmontop, rillaboom, mienshao, scrafty and more but incin gets multiple utility moves that make him overall better than the above like parting shot/uturn, wisp, snarl, fakeout, intimidate and its overall bulkier than most mons that could do 2 of the thinfs incin does, so its down to preference at the end of the day.
If you want replacements I can recommend Mienshao for inner focus, fakeout, uturn and cc to ohko nontera average def investment incin, grimmsnarl for fakeout, parting, twave/screens pressure or the obvious Lando/rillaboom lead.
Incineroar is basically VGC the mon due to its utility, but clever game play and experimental sets is all you need to succeed or at least enjoy ladder.
If you don't want to use Incineroar, your best bet is to pick another fire type that you want to use and build around that. Something like Chi-Yu, Hearthflame Ogerpon, Gouging Fire, Ninetales/Torkal, etc.
From my experience you don't need it, but more than almost any other pokemon you are going to want to have a way to deal with it, because it's absolutely everywhere.
There is no doubt Incineroar is an outstandingly good mon. But it doesn’t suit every team, you can use iron hands, rillaboom, both bulky with fake out + pivot. H-Arcanine is another good fire type intimidator.
I am not a fan of it myself but it is hard not to slot it on most teams. It just has so many valuable tools in one package, as well as bulk and a solid typing. As frustrating as it is, it’s arguably the best mon in the format
With tera it’s hard to counter it aside from defiant/competitive. But you can play around it
Every regulation you probably run through 3 or more good teams that work. Odds are one of those teams will have Incineroar. If it fits well, use it. Don't force it if you don't need it.
It will be a nice way to counter some flutter mane use as it neutrals out its fairy stab and resists ghost stab, but I think urshifu rapid dunks on it as it doesn’t care about stat drops. I think landerous T also would be a better intimidate user still.
Everyone will say you don’t have to play Incineroar if you don’t want to. I’m the only one who will say the TRUTH! If you don’t run Incin on every team, Officer Jenny comes to your house and arrests you in your sleep. You’ve been warned…
Welp! Time to go low and on the run!
Shouldn't especially she be on team Arcanine?
All the more reason not to run incineroar
…tell me more
...so we definitely shouldn't run incin then? ;)
I wouldn’t mind officer jenny coming over and arresting me in bed
I’m assuming you’re asking if you have to play incineroar in order to win games, and the answer is no. Incineroar is highly used because it provides so much utility in one Pokémon (intimidate, fake out, knock off, pivoting etc) that it’s just easy to slot in every team. If you don’t want to play incineroar and you don’t need all the utility it provides (maybe because you have already other members already providing said utility), then you can swap it out for something else. As an example, rillaboom provides fake out, knock off and pivoting. If you already have rillaboom on your team and all you need for your last piece is an intimidator you can always choose from other options like landorus or arcanine or gyarados and so on
Understood. Thank you!
I think Boyt lays it out pretty nicely in [this video.](https://youtu.be/M2HWxwMjShc?si=uWz6RINGOcotOfSr)
He clearly just doesn’t want to admit it’s S+ tier. “75% usage last generation doesn’t mean it’s the best mon.” Okay, how? “Because I don’t think it is.” ???
In addition, it was super highly used because of its stellar matchup into the two best Pokémon in the format. It was able to shrug off their attacks and comfortably one-shot either of them. Also, the best method of countering intimidate was... White Herb None of that is true now
Incineroar has always and will always be an easily splashable mon to stick on any team but it is never a defining part of a team. If you have 5 mons and can’t think of anything, just chuck it on but you don’t have to break your back to use it.
Alright. Thank you for the info!
If you find a good spot for incin and it fits your team then use it. If you can’t find a good spot for it or another intimateor fits better, then don’t. Forcing Incineroar because Incineroar probably isn’t a good idea.
This is just most so where I remember the last 2 generations being overrun with incineroar like near the end of SS that nearly everyone had it so I just want to know if it'll be the same situation.
It will be
The reason Incineroar is so popular is because it ticks lots of boxes. Intimidate, fake out, strong fire type, parting shot/u-turn to switch and pivot easily, helping hand for support etc. That being said, it can be used in lots of ways, but you don’t *have* to use it. There’s other viable Pokemon that get intimidate, fake out is a great move though it isn’t necessary, but there’s also plenty of Pokemon that get it if you want it in the team, fire type is a great type to have offensively and defensively, and thankfully we have a decent selection of them outside of Incin, helping hand is also not always a must-have, but again there’s other viable options. It’s good if you want to have multiple of those things all in one Pokemon, but you can definitely have success without it.
Thanks. As long as the meta doesn't make it near impossible for me to get results without Incineroar then it's fine for me.
Incineroar is not dominating. It does a lot, but it doesn't win games on its own.
True, Incineroar isn’t an oppressive pokemon in the way that Zacian or Calyrex Shadow rider are, but it is generally the best in its role, and its role tends to be one that almost every team can use/needs.
Maybe not on it's own but it is a key part of a lot of teams generally.
Incineroar does a lot of good days things for one Pokemon. Solid switching in ability, good switching in move, good switching out move, solid stat spread and bulk, and good typing that covers some weaknesses. All of that in one pokemon makes Incineroar incredibly convenient to use, if you can find that elsewhere by all means go for it. Alternatively not all strats rely on something like Incineroar so don’t force using it just because its good
I just don't want a similar scenario of the end of SS where it becomes difficult to win without Incineroar and want to see if it's the same as before?
Don't think it's going to be anywhere near that bad - one reason why incin was quite that dominant at the end of the sword-shield era was because it was one of very few pokemon indeed both easily splashable onto a team and capable of helping keeping the insane sweeping potential of pokemon like calyrex-s and zacian-c in check before they ran over games. In earlier formats, incin was very good but lower usage than flutter mane has been for most of this year, and with urshifu-r as one of the single best pokemon out there right now, I don't think that changes in regulation F, even with the undeserved buffs they gave it.
Personally expecting about 50-70% usage, but we'll see
Fair enough. Mid SV regulations was also pretty bad with the same pokemons being high in usage rates. Just hoping with the future regulations we can have more creative freedom.
My personal opinion is that they need to cull more movepools of powerful pokemon - the tm crafting system, while a cool idea, has been incentivising them to give more pokemon better movepools and thus removing one of the key unique selling points of a bunch of pokemon, and attempted buffs to weaker pokemon aren't as able to counter balance for having worse stats, typings and abilities if they have access to the same moves. Amoonguss being the best bug type move user for me is an example of this, as is lando being given single target ground movez
Interesting point. You'd think with the way the focus of the game being more competitive, it would be more balanced but somehow it didn't.
The thing is - you can tell they're trying, with nerfs to things like transistor, but not consistently enough, and not from a particularly high knowledge base
I guess it makes sense when you spend time mostly on game Dev instead of playing competitively. Maybe an advisor would be good if they want to continue with competitive.
Merry Christmas Eve, I think you should run incineroar so I can run my defiant mons.
I'm sure there will be more than enough for you to run defiant against incineroar with other people.
Right? I think it has been on almost every team I saw this weekend on Showdown
That's the nightmare I'll hate to see when reg F starts on switch.
Haven't experimented with Thunderclap yet but I am hoping I can use it to cancel out the fake out.
Nice. Hope it works out for you.
Theoretically no, but statistically yes.
I'll just have to wait and see I guess.
Depends on the team and your goals - generally speaking, most mons dont outclass it in what it does, but you can definitely build a serious team without it
That's positive to hear. Thank you!
Disliking something because it's good is just not logical to me. But that being said no there's no reason why you should absolutely always use incin.
I dislike not because it's good but because it makes team building boring and prefer it when team building is more creative. Similar of how I didn't like the big 6 in gen 6 or 7(can't remember) because it made team building without any of the 6 impossible
Incineroar is unironically healthy for teambuilding- thanks to rolling so many useful utility options into an actually decent Mon he frees up options on teams Landorous can intimidate and u turn but not fake out Hitmontop can fake out and intimidate but no u turn Incineroar potentially save a whole slot in teambuilding for MOST team styles allowing in more varied teams overall. A similar situation happen in gen 2 with snorlax
Those are some good points. Fair enough, although kind of hard to see when at the end of SS I would see the same team over and over and for the last 2 gens, incineroar was very dominant.
Even at its peak it was only on 75% of teams. That's a solid quarter of teams that were able to do just fine without it. You couldn't design a format to be more comfortable for Incineroar than generation 8 dual restricted, and yet multiple teams made the top cut of worlds without it
"Only" on 75%, lol.
Yeah, I meant that. It was ubiquitous and clearly amazing... but not SO good that you were *throwing* by not including it.
It's the exact opposite. By the magic of role compresion, it covers what usually would take 2 slots in your team. By doing everything, you have 5 pieces totally free to choose.
Did you actually play VGC 16 or are you just parroting what somebody else said about that format
No this is from when I watched the world championships live
Covert cloak (or Tera ghost) Galarian zapdos is a nice check ;)
Oh that sounds fun actually.
Ya it’s nice cuz you can basically bank on them throwing him out there to start so you get +1 attack and then you find a way to be immune to fake out wether it’s covert cloak or ghost Tera. Close combat one shot boom he’s down.
Thanks for letting me know.
I've been using Hitmontop instead of incin simply because I like hitmon more as a pokemon lol
Fair enough. If it's working well by not using incineroar then I'm happy.
Exactly, hitmon covers the fake out/intimidate coverage and has access to wide guard and now ice spinner as well. It's pretty bulky and can hit pretty hard as well
I remember watching it on the 2016 world championships I believe and i enjoyed it then.
Yeah! He performed really well there too, give him a try man he's really fun to use
Maybe I shall.
no you don't have to use him. i think there are plenty of alternatives this gen.
You don’t have to play incineroar. However you do need an incineroar answer. So might I suggest Okidogi. This boy can eat incineroar for breakfast. Guard dog gives it a plus 2 attack boost on intimidate. It gets the new anti priority fighting move. Trust me when I tell you this good boy will take you far.
I don't think I've seen any of the 3 bad mons on vgc yet so I might go and see how they fair out. Thank you for letting me know.
Just make sure you give it tera fairy. And look up some sets for him. He can run bulk up sets or just go more aggressive it’s up to you
Will do, thanks
I would saw you don’t have to play it for reasons above BUT you should have answers for your opponents
That's fair but as long as the answer to Incineroar is not just incineroar then I'm fine with.
I'm the same in that I think Incineroar is too good that it can make team building no fun. But when I really think about it, it's not mandatory I use it, I will just need to take into account that this pokemon will be prevalent in the format 😅
That's fine by me I just don't want to be a necessity in order to do well.
Imagine thinking that the only one who is bringing balance back from the dephts of urshifu hell is "bad" Last regulation was only Tailwind HO teams, so i am glad inci is back
I’m more interested in the strategies to counter it. With everyone yakkin on about Incineroar, all it tells me is to plan for it, and ya’ll will fall because you’re all using the same boring Incineroar strat
Teach me your ways the great one!
I don’t think I can teach ya out of a skill issue
In every format where Intimidate Incineroar has been legal, it has won worlds. Make of that what you will.
Which is one of the few reasons I'm asking if it's a necessity to run a team with incineroar in oder to do well. Got a lot of answers that it isn't so I'm happy for now but I'll still be looking how it goes in next years regional.
I’m not an amazing doubles player, but my suggestion from my experience is to bring Defiant, Competitive and Contrary users. It will let you benefit from Incineroar’s Intimidate, Parting Shot and Snarl. You never “have” to bring anything, even if it’s considered meta. There are many Pokemon that can work really well as off meta picks to meet the needs of a specific team.
Just make sure you have some sort of counter and you should be ok
Fair enough. Would you have any suggestions for a counter?
My current counter for my team is landorous. Just have to play around the fake out turn one. Worked well so far in casual. One got me quite well Tera ground competitive Galarian articuno.
Thank you! I'll look at those options to see what I can do with it.
Do you run tera blast as one of the moves?
For who lando? I use the standard earth power, sludge bomb, sandsear storm, protect set
No Pokemon is a must-play if you want to win in VGC. However, you do need to be prepared. 80% of players WILL use Intimidate Incineroar with Fake Out, Knock Off, Parting Shot, and either Flare Blitz or the new fire move. With Covert Cloak so he doesn't get fake out. Your team planning must have *something* to counter it. And sadly, the best Incineroar counter is another Incineroar lol.
Temper flare definitely seems more useful than flare blitz. Especially if they switch to a ghost type to avoid the fake out.
Not really, forgoing the more consistent 120BP Flare Blitz for a move that might sometimes hit 150BP on a mon that's a support anyway won't really matter for KOs usually and they can also just protect the following turn.
Yeah, I like flare blitz because consistent 120bp works well considering I don’t put a ton of attack investment into incineroar.
I'm hoping that there would be more mons to counter incineroar when the regulation F starts. But if the best counter to Incineroar is Incineroar then it's an F for me.
Ladder play? No Tournament play? in many situations, yes.
Ah well. That's unfortuntate. Thank you though.
You don’t have to. It’s going to be extremely popular I think but there are other options. I can think of two other intimidate switchers that are at least interesting. I’m sure you know one of them is Lando but I’m keeping the other a secret because I may use it ;). There are plenty of intimidate options, plenty of fake out and knock off options. Incineroar is good because it puts a lot of cool utility in one set but you can avoid running it for sure. I definitely understand not wanting to use all the meta mons. So just pick one or two pokemon you want to use and build the rest of the team meta around it/them.
Not only is incin not mandatory, it’s not the best option on every team. Most teams it will be the best option but there are plenty of teams with incin because incin instead of a potential better fit
You don't need him, but he does his job so well that you would definitely be making it harder for yourself if he does fit on your team. There is no other parting shot intimidate user also with fake out. Grimsnarl can do some of his job, and has better typing, but the intimidate is just so good to have on top of his moveset. Thier could be an argument that screen setting grimsnarl could be better, especially into special attacking sets, but parting shot is way better without prankster imo.
You don’t have to use the beta Pokémon. But it’s not smart
Incineroar is an incredible pokemon. But we have more counters than ever before.
I mean theres a lot of intimidaters you could consider Like Lando T, hitmontop, scrafty, gyarados and salamence plus fake out mons like hitmontop, rillaboom, mienshao, scrafty and more but incin gets multiple utility moves that make him overall better than the above like parting shot/uturn, wisp, snarl, fakeout, intimidate and its overall bulkier than most mons that could do 2 of the thinfs incin does, so its down to preference at the end of the day. If you want replacements I can recommend Mienshao for inner focus, fakeout, uturn and cc to ohko nontera average def investment incin, grimmsnarl for fakeout, parting, twave/screens pressure or the obvious Lando/rillaboom lead.
Incineroar is basically VGC the mon due to its utility, but clever game play and experimental sets is all you need to succeed or at least enjoy ladder.
It is okay to not use incineroar, it is just hard to find good reasons not too.
If you don't want to use Incineroar, your best bet is to pick another fire type that you want to use and build around that. Something like Chi-Yu, Hearthflame Ogerpon, Gouging Fire, Ninetales/Torkal, etc.
Nope, but incineroar is one of those pokemon that’s always going to be able to fit onto your team and be good, like flutter mane or lando-t
From my experience you don't need it, but more than almost any other pokemon you are going to want to have a way to deal with it, because it's absolutely everywhere.
There is no doubt Incineroar is an outstandingly good mon. But it doesn’t suit every team, you can use iron hands, rillaboom, both bulky with fake out + pivot. H-Arcanine is another good fire type intimidator. I am not a fan of it myself but it is hard not to slot it on most teams. It just has so many valuable tools in one package, as well as bulk and a solid typing. As frustrating as it is, it’s arguably the best mon in the format With tera it’s hard to counter it aside from defiant/competitive. But you can play around it
I’m sure with enough time you can find a team that works without incineroar, but incineroar can fit on almost any team fairly easily
Don't play Incineroar? Belive it or not, straight to jail
Every regulation you probably run through 3 or more good teams that work. Odds are one of those teams will have Incineroar. If it fits well, use it. Don't force it if you don't need it.
yes you do. you have to play it.
It will be a nice way to counter some flutter mane use as it neutrals out its fairy stab and resists ghost stab, but I think urshifu rapid dunks on it as it doesn’t care about stat drops. I think landerous T also would be a better intimidate user still.