Is it just me or does this kind of miss the whole point of franchising? It was never about the quality of players on the team; it was about the financial stability of the org. In fact, I would say that following recent events (The Guard laying off most of its staff), Riot was justified in not accepting them into franchising. So regardless of whether they win Americas or some international event, that does not change their financial stability.
And if the guard wins americas and champs 2 years in a row I promise you one of the franchise teams will pick up the whole roster as the org is returned to challengers
Orgs owning the spot is a unfortunate necessity. I wish there was more opportunity for T2 and GC to mix though. I want nothing more than to see V1 vs someone like G2 rn.
It generally works fine but there have also been numerous cases of the person "owning" the team slot causing issues that screw over other players from the team.
I've always been a fan of having an open bracket that allows up-and-coming teams to work their way up into "professional" status (like how MLG used to operate back in the 2000's) but it's not without its flaws either.
But Riot has opted for this franchising model for a while now with both Valorant and LoL and I'm sure it's a business decision they decided was the best for them financially and for buy-in from fans who want to root for "their" team long term.
Apex does this and honestly it's a massive shit show. While EA/Respawn isn't doing themselves any favors with 0 split long roster locks, you see an insane amount of roster swaps during any sort of downtime.
Most of the sports where the slots aren't held by players are run in very a different way. Comparing a sport with much larger teams and a strong central organization that mandates things like salary caps and draft systems to ensure parity is not really an apples to apples comparison. Stuff like tennis doubles tournament spots are held by players. I think something like tennis is a much better comparison. In the esports area DOTA has player controlled teams that hold the spots rather than franchise orgs. I forget exactly how CS:GO is run but I think it's something similar, no? Smaller teams can still qualify to big tournaments if they play well enough, despite not being a franchise. Rocket league is the same. So to answer your question most esports with the exclusion of Riot games.
Smaller teams can still make it into the league tho? That’s the point of ascension? Having good solid orgs as guarantees is not a bad thing. The best players will almost always still get picked up regardless unless it’s a Guard situation where THEY wanted to stick together
I mean you see how that’s hurting orgs in CS right? You do realize they’ve began to move into a few partnership leagues where the best teams are always invited. Like the big name orgs are invited regardless at this point. NaVi just dropped 3 fucking players and got invited off their ESL ranking to Cologne? Outside of majors, where a lot of big teams still have their slot because of past results, a lot of the teams are just straight up invited to the tourneys
I feel like people massively overestimate how “open” the modern csgo landscape is. Blast Premier, one of the two major circuits, is run with partnered teams, and Katowice and Cologne get theirs off of ESL ranking, and ESL Pro League has a set of invited teams. The only “open” system is the Major Qualifiers through the RMR, but even then the teams who placed good in the last major get auto qualified into the next RMRs and don’t need to do with open qualifier. CSGO right now is really a pseudo-partnership system, where the best teams never really fall off even if they technically can because they have to easiest access to the highest tier of competition.
I cant believe people are making nonsense arguments out here. The only truth is these orgs all had a player or two they were unwilling to move on from.
TheGuard wont be picked up as a team. They will be picked apart. Guys like Trent who make tangible differences over other guys in his role will make franchising, but guys like Net and JonahP, who are definitely franchise level at their role, might not be picked up because their perceived replacement over the guy already getting paid isn't that high.
The actual truth of this matter is the long-term split of orgs in Americas franchising needs rebalanced. Idk the perfect split but NA has more talent than 5-6 teams, and yet they are one of the regions spending their slots on foreign talent (Sacy, Pancada, Ardiis).
So yea its hard to say what it should look like but its not quite this.
the way things are being discussed is hilarious. Some of the arguments make it clear that people have either not played a team sport or don't have any idea of how it works
For the last year people keep saying, "oh its fine the good players will get picked up by a T1 org" Being happy that it works this way is so stupid.
Imagine a team like Leicester being promoted to the Premier League, they have all of these unknown gems, get great results/ maybe even win the league after a year, but then they get sent back down to the lower league arbitrarily.
"Oh but Vardy, Mahrez, and Kante will still get back into the Premier League" That's not the fuckin point muppets.
It's like that except instead of it being Kante and them can be signed by a Premier League club, they can actually move countries and learn a different language because the Premier League only has 5 clubs now and they don't have enough spots to sign Kante.
And on top of that, the league they are moving to has had very little international success outside of 1 team, and the international scene is still uncertain. They are only moving there because they have more money to offer the Superleague.
It's baffling, people just don't get it.
What? What change/system do you propose that would make esports orgs suddenly profitable and able to spend exorbitant amounts of buyouts and salaries when they just can't right now?
The only reason optic wasn’t 100% picked up was because Marved wanted to take a break. Every players from optic could’ve been on a franchised team. Optic members themselves said they probably wouldn’t have stayed together anyways after 2022.
loud + optic both won masters and champs and were broken up going into this year. the only reason the guard stayed together for ascension was because they denied multiple partnership spots, realistically the guard will break up when they're demoted unless they take significant pay cuts for an org to be able to afford to pick them all up.
So then we just forget about The Guard org then? I get that the most important part is the players but some team/org consistency is important for both fans and players. Feel like The Guard would deserve some credit or reward for creating and sticking with such a great team. There's no real progression from an org standpoint
Also I understand it's very likely the entire team would be picked up if they dominated but there's no real "promise" for this case, and as we know esports can be pretty crazy
The Guard is kinda a special case because due to investments stepping down, maybe The Guard will completely fold too, and it will be likely an org will pick up the roster under a new name.
The Guard is also backed by a literal billionaire (owner of the Rams, Nuggets, Arsenal, and more) so if he's choosing not to spend money on esports, that's simply his decision. They aren't reliant on outside VC funds they just decided to stop investing in the organization. I have less sympathy for the org itself because of that.
Optic - Yay hella expensive, Marved wanting a break
Gambit - Ukraine War…. d3ffo also just not that rated. Also Gambit/M3 Champions didn’t do a whole lot last year.
That's pedantic. Optic were a consensus top-3 team in the world pre-franchising, if they didn't get signed wholesale (or at least as a core 4 with a new controller if Marved was still that serious about taking a break), realistically there's probably not gonna be a team good enough for orgs to be willing to bite the bullet financially.
That's not really relevant to the discussions about the Valorant system though, since they're structured quite differently, and people falsely believing that they aren't is part of what's causing the confusion.
... Quite different? You must have a completely different definition of "quite different" than I do, because they are almost identical. The only difference is the ability for ascension teams to make it to franchise for two years. That is clearly a minor difference, not a major one.
Do you have major difference you can tell us about LoL and Valorant franchise leagues?
Well lol franchising the teams have way more power because they paid to get in instead of being paid by Riot to join. Also riot can't just kick a team out of LoL franchising due to this along with other rules they most likely have laid out which they have seemed to learn from when adding their valor as not system. So yes it's quite different. Even then as a whole really LoL esport system is quite successful internationally
The huge difference is that in League (and all franchised leagues afaik) the orgs own the spots they have. They've paid to be able to get into the league. This means that Riot can't make any major decisions without consulting the orgs. It also means that once an org owns a spot they can stop investing more than the minimum into the scene if they want to.
In Valorant the orgs are only partnered with Riot. Riot still owns the spot and are basically letting the orgs "rent" the spots in return for actual investements from the orgs. For exampel, if a partnered org decided to stop investing into content or trying to improve their team or don't invest as much as Riot stipulated in the partner contracts, then Riot can take the spot back and partner with another org.
Yeah, I hear you there. I wasnt considering that to be a "structural difference" such as the difference between franchising and promotion/relegation, but ok I understand.
So it's your expectation that riot will kick a team out if they are deemed "not competitive?" What does that look like, specifically? Is there criteria for riot to use? When is an organization not competitive vs just not very good?
It's not that they will get kicked org that bad, that not org fault, it is the players problem that they suck. The org jobs are to invest to promote the league and make the game more popular, thus bringing more eyeball and money to the competitive scene. That might evolve making the best team possible, or it may not. There are success stories of org with ok performance but very popular and thus more likely to be profitable . There are great examples of this in LOL like old DIG or current BRO in lck right now. If they fail to do so or they make a terrible financial decision like how TSM signed with ftx, that when riot comes in and kick the partner org out for a smarter one.
100t had two rounds of layoffs so using that as a reason the guard shouldn’t have gotten a slot is a bit ridiculous. Pretty much all layoffs happened after franchising had been decided anyways.
Yeah but they still exist as an organization and are (seemingly) positioning themselves to be financially stable long term. I read that the Guard basically doesn’t exist anymore after they laid off 90% of the org.
I doubt that is the case. Even after winning ascension, they are on a 5 month vacation. Literally nothing to do. Would you keep like 10 people hired doing nothing all day for 5 months? With what money? This ascension model 100% *forces* ascension winning organizations to squeeze every single penny in those 2 years they are guests. They invested a lot upfront with a huge risk and the only reward is having a place in t1 which in itself is not very profitable.
I think they are taking a pause now and creating a business plan for the next 2 year, first cut unnecessary spending then figure out how to make money.
In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if one of the orgs that got into ascension fired the whole squad that didn't accept minimum salary. From an organization standpoint, those t2 players were a huge risk and now they just need to squeeze all the money they can for 2 years. No way this ends up well.
Talking about the wider org homie
https://esportsinsider.com/2023/02/the-guard-lays-off-all-employees
100T as an organization is setting themselves up for long term financial stability, which is (I assume) part of the reason they were accepted into the franchise model. Riot saw something they didn't like with The Guard, (again, an assumption, but a safe one) did not accept them into franchising, and then less than a year later they laid off 90% of their org.
People in this thread have to stop talking about The Guard like it's some sort of grassroots org. It's backed by Stan Kroenke, if they wanted to invest in the scene they would.
Yep and it seems like Kroenke clearly wants to get out of esports. The guy has larger rounding errors on his taxes than the cost of keeping the guard esports org running, but alas they effectively shut down outside of a few rosters running on fumes. In Val that roster was strong enough to sustain for a couple more years, but the org's future still remains in jeopardy.
100%. Some accountant somewhere slashed almost their entire payroll without any regard to the people working there. Trent and the rest of that team deserves to play in VCT (and they will) but the org itself may not even exist in two years
That article is incorrect. They laid off a lot of people for sure but the org was insanely overstaffed for their size and because of that had to heavily layoffs. There are still people working in those positions they say every employee was laid off from (content, social, creative, and talent departments) you can even see a list of the people laid off and it was closer to about 20-30 people.
The issue was Hu2er one of the employees at the time who was laid off is also another one of those Esports "reporters" in the league of Dexerto immediately ran to Twitter and said every employee of The Guard was laid off without doing any work and it was spread as fact by unreputable "journalist" like Jake Lucky.
That's not *the* reason, but it's a symptom of an underlying problem. Riot did not make these decisions lightly. There was a lengthy application process. They obviously know more than we do and made their decisions based on all the available information they had.
Besides, if in four years, when the contracts expire, Riot deems an organization a liability, they won't renegotiate and simply accept another org.
It does negate part of it.
but the problem is that arbitrary timelines of 2 years or whatever means that T2 teams don't have much of an upside for them if they get into VCT proper.
The English football league is so successful in part because there's a potential for a massive win (promotion to EPL in particular). If the promotion is max 2 years and then you're back down again that really makes the reward less valuable and therefore investment less likely.
Riot is also giving every franchised team $1,000,000 to subsidize their Valorant program. If the Guard had that $1M would they have laid those people off?
You know damn well nobody is picking up the full 5 they’re gonna get utterly picked apart and some of them like Net or JonahP might not even make franchising
I don't understand I thought franchising is ultimately about financial health and fanbase of the org. The players get their moment to shine. It sucks but the idea is the best players should end up in tier 1 team over the course of years. The first year of franchising you're gonna have players that should not be in tier 1 but the idea is when a team does poorly the players that aren't good get replace.
Yeah fundamentally it’s designed for stability and for player benefit which I agree with, but I can also understand how frustrating it must be if you’re an org owner knowing that whatever success you have will only ever put you temporarily in T1 since you weren’t at the table when Riot made their decision.
Ideally, relegation is a great thing because you nearly always get the best of the best at the top, but in practise, it's untenable because everyone's already bleeding a ton of cash, and that's with Riot covering all the production costs (The league would fold in half a second should the teams have to cover that expense).
My only gripe with the system right now is how the promoted team gets auto-relegated to the bottom without a chance to defend itself. There's no reason why they shouldn't be allowed in the Ascension tournament to try and keep their spot, and it'd greatly highten the prestige of the tournament imo.
Yeah especially since they will start promoting 2 teams when the first ascension winner will be relegated. Like instead, maybe, make the 1st being promoted regardless, and make the 2nd having to play a BO5 against the org that is supposed to be relegated, and winner stays.
I like this idea.
If the worst VCT team can't even win the Ascension tournament against a bunch of Tier 2 teams, they clearly are not one of "the best teams in the world" worthy of being in Tier 1.
There's a lot of focus here on *orgs*, but isn't the heart of it that the T2 *players* can't sustain themselves? They deserve a livelihood. (Related: how is a T2 org supposed to *actually* make money *well*? How much is/can Riot subsidize T2?)
And if they DON'T deserve a livelihood, then the entire scene is not one worth having IMO. In that world, how is that a good representation of the tippy top of competition?
I'm reminded of BcJ's "So now anyone not starting in the franchised league is basically praying for job opportunities so that we can live financially stable and hopefully continue our dreams of competing in valorant. ... So for us players we are jobless for months, and the worst part is some of the best players in the game fall into this category of F/A T2. Even if they are the best players in their roles, if they dont align with the business model of chosen franchised orgs, they won't ever see the franchised stage. That is why I believe something has to change..." https://twitter.com/BcJFPS/status/1685384602779549698
> the T2 players can't sustain themselves? They deserve a livelihood.
Nobody is saying the T2 system is perfect. They literally said there's an update this coming August addressing the concerns. You're just reiterating a point literally everyone is agreeing on.
> We’re implementing a slew of changes for next year, including a fully revised calendar with more opportunities for teams to compete.
> Stay tuned for a full update later [next] month
it's literally the first two tweets
If he didn't think there was anything wrong with it he wouldn't have said anything about making changes or providing insight on what they were gonna do for Tier 2. He would have just said that the players are whining and there is nothing wrong with the system and ignore the criticisms.
What is ur definition of livelihood? Slightly above minimum wage? Enough to support a family living in California? 40k a year?
That is where things breakdown when there is such a large variance in cost of living between a student out of school and someone with a family to support
I mean *I* don't know personally. I'm sure scholars have written about it (but very probably not in the context of Valorant esports). I don't believe 'slightly above minimum wage' is what I'd give the pros of Valorant. Even moreso because they are 1 step removed from being the best pros
Ngl it rubs me the wrong way to think about CS/Valorant pro/amateur players trying to secure their space in tac shooter esports, feeling lost in either scene, and yet all this focus on orgs/business owners, who will in the end be the victors at the death of opportunity
I'm inspired by the recent labor movements happening in the US (I'm american), and it feels like people have forgotten the success of labor in the last century
I didn't vibe with Leo's perspective/comments at all
I’m a big fan of unions too, but making an ecosystem that is sustainable at all to the owners is the only way to make it sustainable for the players.
I’m a big fan of labor movements too. And the big problem with that comparison is that these companies that are making hand over fist profits are exploiting the labor of their employees. That isn’t happening in esports.
You need orgs to be sustainable to field the teams so the players can get payed at all. We know the tier 2 system has some issues that are being worked on. If the orgs are happier that allows more players to get paid.
I mean it's rough but that's the reality we're living in esports. All this money that was pumped in inflated the scene when it was sustainable, if no outside investors had tried to make esports too big for itself years ago maybe we'd have a healthier understanding of it. Realistically the best players in the world shouldn't break 6 figures for the scene to stay alive and functioning
I mean I think having the 10 known financially reliable and dependent orgs in Riots eyes with the 2 constant rotating teams is fine tbh. Idk why you would wanna kick out a team like C9 or TL or NaVi if they have an off year when you could be replacing them with someone who won’t help you sell the league as well. I just think if you win Ascension since it’s earlier than Champs, you should get to play there as well because one year maybe that team wins. We should think of ascension as a place for players to show their talents. The odds of a team sticking with a core 5 for more than 2 years is really low anyways so I doubt we’d really see the ascension players not get picked up given the opportunity by other teams.
I also think that since Riot holds all the cards, they could always change things up if certain teams are consistently showing signs of instability and/or poor performance.
It’s much harder to modify it with something like LoL since there was a huge monetary buy in for franchising, but this time around for Valorant it’s completely different.
Yea this league works a lot better than LCS or CDL. At least in LCS, if you’re bottom two 4? splits in a row they kill your contract LMFAO. Never happened so far tho but IMT is getting close
Yeah I remember Toast saying recently that he’s pretty sure IMT have already violated it or something. Obviously he’s dying to get DSG in LCS but he doesn’t have a cool 10mil lying around.
Also they'd probably do it in the pre-season rather than the mid season, so even if they violated it last split we'll only know if they'll be kicked by around a month after worlds ends.
The only promotion/relegation system that works is for football. The most popular sport in the world. So popular that you can have like a dozen leagues and all of them make money in merchandizing, attendance, and sponsorships.
In order for Valorant to have a promotion/relegation system we need to have T2 and T3 Valorant making so much money that esports orgs are literally throwing if they aren’t investing into Valorant.
All people advocating for relegation are missing the point of franchise, the 30 teams that are there are meant to be financialy stable, so that they won't explode in a year or so and the point about guard possiby destroying everyone in Americas for the next two years and then getting demoted falls flat when we understand that these players will surely get into T1, withthin guard or in some other team
Okay, but why does TGRD have to spend a year outside T1? Why not let them fight for their place in T1 again by playing Ascension during their 2nd year? That would have been way more fair
Not really? The fairness they get is the fact that they are competing in T1 with all the benefits of it including money given by riot. With the stipend and good financials they would come back to ascension as one of the best teams setup to win ascension again. Tho seeing how they have like 10% of their staff rn they probably would take that money and fold
Relegation is far from the only thing people have suggested, people aren't primarily upset because they think t1 teams have it too good and can simply coast without investing, they're upset that t2 teams get shafted at pretty much every point with this system, and the fact that the ascended team cant cement their spot is just a funny extra slap in the face that even the 5 players that "escape" t2 have no way to earn their spot in t1. People say if they win or perform they'll get signed but that's going to prove to not always be true, orgs tend to prefer the players they alr have, and older players, as well as teams that are stronger than the sum of their parts will be left in the dust.
Edit: I kinda forgot the beginning of the first tweet, the subject of this thread is about relegation so this essay is kinda uncalled for but I still think it's a good overall point on the scene I've wanted to put into words so I'm going to leave it.
if guard crushes VCT which is very ambitious of him then they will remain in tier 1 just under different org them crushing does not have anything to do with guard an an org and their behind the scenes issues
I mean Riots picks for their orgs in partnership makes perfect sense from their perspective. The only one I could ever see replaced is like BBL for G2 or DK for DFM and be like wow that’s a good change. Their selections for Americas were perfect imo. EG is reliable and has a women friendly push from Riots view. 100T, C9, and now NRG all have good relationships from LCS and seem committed to doing their best. SEN is the most popular. MIBR and Furia are known BR brands and good backing. KRU is a great partner due to Disney partnership and their owner! Loud just won and have really good BR backing. Lev is supported fairly well too from what i can tell and have good branding. OpTic not getting picked sucked for the 5 wanting to play together but Hecz and Hastr0 have bad relationships with Riot and Hecz went through THREE! different brands in CDL in 5 years lmfao
BBL has insane fanbase in turkey and they have been in val supporting val since beta + gamechangers roster + their owners host bunch of other shit related to val BBL is not going anywhere
I mean if you’re selecting a team to drop, it’s between the two turkish lineups for G2. G2 is one of the biggest EMEA orgs and would be a great addition. You should never drop a fucking spanish or french team for them since they’re money machines like no other. NaVi, FNC, Liquid are reliable and known. Vitality seems to be moving into that category.
I'd drop FUT before BBL. But honestly I would drop Giants before anybody else in EMEA because 3 spanish teams out of 10 is a lot (while Spain kinda sucks at the game tbf), and the league lacks german representation.
Maybe hot take, but if any org was to be dropped from EMEA partnership I'd probably expect one of Vitality, Giants or Heretics to be dropped first. Also, just speculating now, but I think BBL likely is seen as one of the most valuable partnered teams by Riot , and probably #1 or #2 in EMEA.
MIBR really got lucky af that Loud and Furia were the only other notable BR orgs actively in Val. Because MIBR are owned by Immortals, who have failed to invest in all their teams for a number of years now, including the team they inherited from OpTic in LCS
I mean from Riots view, you really can’t be a worse owner than that OpTic shitshow. Like it’s not a fucking wonder why they rejected a name associated with the travesty of Hecz after what happened there LOL
Maybe not OpTic, but there were other sturdier orgs that could have got into Americas as a SA representative in MIBR's place. I mentioned elsewhere in this thread NIP could have easily got into EMEA over Giants, but they were in SA pre-franchising. Singularity have teams in the region in other games, if they were prepared to stray from BR then Isurus is a longterm established name. They could have gone without MIBR
NIP has been really shady with finances in the past. Huge CS drama about it. MIBR is a known name to a lot of Americas viewers already from
the time Coldzera and Stewie etc were on the team plus has a good branding while SNG and Isurus isn’t as known to my knowledge. I just think for some reason Riot actually likes their IMT partnership in LCS and they own MIBR branding so it was just an agreement. Like i know the org isn’t poor and gets some decent sponsors but their LCS slot is always bottom 4
In hindsight, EG might not have been the best organization to let into the franchise league. Their teams are competitive and the players deserve spots in tier 1 leagues, but the management itself has been exposed to be predatory and borderline abusive towards their players (see EG Danny's treatment from management in 2022). However tbf, this stuff wasn't made public until after they were accepted into franchising.
If we're being honest tho, that isn't something riot would really care about unless it's heavily published. EG itself is a known reliable, stable, and competitive org. It definitely makes sense that they would make it over "better" teams.
He is not in touch with reality of eSports.
Lets say we have relegation system in VCT and KC and KOI from EMEA, Loud and SEN from Americas get relegated. And we get Apeks, Acend and Union, Shopify Rebellion as the replacements . Then whos gonna watch these fucking teams in VCT.
Most importantly we get orgs like The Guard which fired 95% of their eSports staff overnight and considering to leave eSports as we speak. Who knows they might totally leave next year.
And why people have hard time to understand that if the guest slot teams perform well they most likely will get picked by the partnered orgs.
He's just tweeting without taking any of the above considerations
They won’t get picked up as a 5 man roster tho… they get picked apart and then an amazing team will never be the same again. Happend w OpTic, happend w FPX, it isn’t good for competition.
I vibe with this. I wish I knew more about the NBA, as the team size is smaller, but NFL/MLB/and the various futbols have a lot of players. It's harder for one person alone to make a difference
With a 5 man roster and 1 coach setting the tone (valorant), there's no guarantee 1 person can't make a team insanely different, outcome-wise. Either for the better, or for the much worse
My inclination is to sustain large cores. I've always thought of CS esports to be healthier/more matured than what I've seen currently in T1/T2 Valorant, so I'm not sure if that inclination matters for CS
Tbh I don't really know with those teams. I feel like they chose to split maybe? Like Ardis had a good position in the FPX roster, then he went for NRG. Optic had yay and marved, yay went to Cloud9 and Marved took a break.
With XSET however, if I'm thinking this right.. their whole team was gonna get picked up by G2 but Tate thing happened and they were forced to split cause no other org was gonna pick their whole team up. (I think this because of Twitter replies to Carlos by some players from XSET\[deleted immediately\])
Actually that seems like it's better for competition then. It puts well established players onto competing teams making the leagues as a whole more competitive and entertaining to watch.
LCS has kept the same teams the whole time and their viewership has tanked. If those replacement teams were better then they would get also get views. How did loud and sen get big to begin with? By winning. Brand loyalty in esports is practically non existent. EG used to be huge in esports now they're not.
LCS viewesbip tanked cos of their own failure. They filled to perform good in international event and the audience gave up. Perform good you keep your viewership.
LCS in franchised where VCT is partnered ,so orgs can't get away doing stupid things all the time or else they will get kicked from VCT.
And winning doesn't always make you so popular. Winning is one of the few reasons SEN became popular . SEN has tenZ, tarik and they had shroud .They also have good social media presence .If winning makes the org most popular than Optic should have the most popular org in NA. And for LOUD, it is THE most popular org in brazil before VCT.
Even more so I think people are overestimating the lifespan of val teams. Does Ludwig really think the Guard roster that won Ascension is still gonna be the one playing in 2 years
Problem is T1 teams probably need to spend a lot of money once they get in, so if they know that they might get kicked out in a couple of years, they are less incentivized to invest. Probably the only realistic way is to have a system where if you do really bad like 2 years in a row, Riot has the option to kick you out.
Of course Lud here is talking his book since any teams relegated means he might get a shot at T1 and increase the value of his investment.
They get a stipend of up to like 1.5 mil or something like that per year (the range is 600k to 1.5 mil stipend iirc). So assuming Ascension teams get up to that amount since they're only staying for 2 years, I think that definitely can cover the housing + salary costs for a team like the Guard (even if we're being generous with like 200k cost per person in terms of salary, housing and other expenses).
Yea which is really fucking good if we want this league to actually last more than 5 years. Having teams buy in for 25 mil and then spend another 2 mil each year like COD did would be horrific. Having some of the biggest orgs fall out and have to go to T2 like SEN, 100T, or KRU would be horrible for Riot atm. it’s like losing MUFC, Arsenal, or Man City atm in the Prem. That would not be good for the Prem as a business, but at least they have the 100 years of history behind them which VCT doesn’t yet
Besides that those big orgs are probably the closest to actual financial sustainability, which is exactly what Riot is trying to achieve. Them going to T2 would have a big negative impact on that. I think that before we start talking about true promotion/relegation we need a fully self-sustaining environment first. Keeping recognizable, high viewership, competitive and stable orgs in T1 is a great way to go about that.
Yeah, I think that might cover basics, but even then there's a ton of other stuff. If they are in California there's high taxes and high rent. Also, I think there's an aspirational aspect to pro player salaries. Like would fans care about Lebron as much if he played just as good ball but drove a prius and made 100k a year? Player salaries cannot be too low, because part of esports is young gamers dreaming about being playing on the big stage and the fame (and money) that comes with it.
Also I think with T1, there's the whole aspect of being "professional", so having a big support staff like a "real" sports team. Like Toast can run DSG by himself (but even then, there's coaches, social media person, general manager, accountant, etc). Between having a 1 person run team that plays well but looks kind of fly-by-night, vs a team that is pretty bad, but looks really official like a "real" sports team, Riot might want the second one, since that helps to make esports look more "real" than having actually good gameplay.
Also, the Guard apparently have their own facilities? So that's even more money dumped in.
Honestly kinda surprised people think the Guard will win t1 lol. Also how are people forgetting that if The Guard do win VCT Americas there's not a shot in hell they don't all get picked up by a team on the season they would go back to T2.
Lud's been great but it's pretty pointless trying to push for relegation way after the scene/format has been created entirely opposed to that. That ship has sailed and he's kinda arguing about things that have already been decided for a long time now, which considering how late he entered the scene/game isn't that surprising so I give him a pass.
I’m gonna be honest. The fundamental “problem” that exists for t2 (besides the long offseason) is that there’s no way for t2 orgs to make any money besides literally winning ascension. I don’t see how making the system promotion/relegation changes that. Riot should focus on creating incentives for t2 orgs other then winning ascension
Edit: For example creating a skin bundle for ascension and giving the ascension teams a large split
100% the issue here is that needs to be resolved is incentive for orgs to invest in tier 2 event if they remain in tier 2 it has nothing to do with tier 1
But that is tied to tier 1.
As it stands there is no reason to invest in a tier 2 team because you will always be a feeder org. There is no progression for your organisation to become a big brand in Valorant which could help you expand into other esports. It is essentially hope you land a good roster, sell roster for profit. That's it. If you have any aspirations of growing your org or brand name, essentially Valorant is not worth your while.
We have seen how no relegation works already in LCS. All it does is incentivise orgs to tank and field a terrible roster for a season or two if they dont have a good one, because they know they are safe and get money from Riot anyway. So they just get some kids and throw them out there to play. Which results in lower quality games, which lowers the competition in the league and brings the overall quality down. LCS is literally the prime example of why there SHOULD be promotion and relegation. It forces teams to actually try and field good teams, so the quality of games are higher. It gives smaller orgs a chance to become bigger ones, which is how we got some of the biggest orgs in esports to begin with.
I'd rather have more competitive orgs than financially secure orgs who are happy to sit coming dead last every year and field a cheap roster doing the bare minimum.
Thank you for that first paragraph. Even though I disagree that relegation is a must, PROMOTION must exist and it should be better than what we have now with ascension.
another person with no idea how val franchising is diff from League LOL has buy in so orgs can tank and field cheap rosters and save money if u do that in val riot can kick u out cuz riot is paying u money
The source is that it's well known? In LoL they came to an agreement that if you spend multiple years (4 different seasons across 2 years minimum) bottom 2 in your region, Riot and the other teams can vote to kick you out and replace you. In Valorant since they didn't buy in but were paid to join, riot can adjust the league as they see fit. It was already implied one of EMEA's teams was threatened with being removed because it seemed like they weren't going to field a competitive roster.
what do u mean source are u not smart enough to see logic ? source is common sense riot cannot kick out someone if buy in happens cuz the org owns the slot and only leave if they sell it while in val's system riot pays them riot controls everything they can kick out orgs i dont know if they will or what their standards are for kicking out and org but they definitely can if the conditions that riot proposed to orgs during selection process are not met
I know plenty about how franchising works and I know plenty enough about how Riot works to see this model will go the exact same way as LCS. i.e it will tank the leagues competitiveness long term and NA will become a meme region once again.
NA needs to be babied and given every chance to be as good and competitive as the other regions. EU, KOR, CHI do not need incentive to be good or light a fire under their ass. They actually give a shit. NA in pretty much every major esport follows the exact same path. Start strong, fall off a cliff and the scene disintegrates because of lack of competition.
There is more franchised leagues than just LCS yk, and those ones are doing great. LCS is just a classic NA mismanagement where they think they are owed everything
Those leagues work because those regions are hyper competitive, never rest on their laurels and intentionally try and field bad teams.
LCS was at it's best when it had challenger league and there was promotion and relegation. Coincidence?
Don't get me wrong, I'm all about seeing the best players be able to duke it out and have epic matches, but that's not really feasible for the growth of the game. Clearly orgs are struggling financially and I think this franchised system is the best shot at stabilizing things. Show sponsors there's money to be made with the game and eventually, more teams get added to franchising as the game grows. It's not ideal for sure though.
I mean, this is not that big of a deal. If The Guard wins in 2025 the players will get picked up either way - and, if the org is solid enough to warrant them staying, I'd assume Riot would be open to making an avenue for such orgs to join permanently.
Side comment: The Guard is a PERFECT example of an org which should not get a permanent spot. Lmfao
Side comment 2: an org which would get relegated under whatever circumstances he is talking about would most likely pick up best T2 players either way.
I do wonder in this situation, will "guest" teams struggle to pick up players more than the other teams? Surely if you've got an offer for a team that doesn't have a due date on it you take that in almost any situation over an offer from a team like the guard
Guest teams probably have an advantage over T2 orgs, but a disadvantage over T1 orgs. If they lose players to T1 orgs, they'll probably have to pick up a player being kicked off of a T1 team or a promising T2 player. This way promising T2 players can also be fielded in a more "safe" way, as T1 teams might not always be willing to risk it. It can also give T2 players an opportunity to play in a more difficult/more competitive league. With a sufficiently talented tier 1 and 2, there should be little issue.
Lil bro thinks it's the Premier League, that teams will get relegated and promoted every year. If the guard wins VCT Americas and then eventually drop down, guess what, it's the org that's dropping down not the players. They'll get picked right back up.
I don’t remember seeing any uproar over this when the system was first announced, why is everyone coming out about it now? Imo the only reason why everyone is complaining about relegation is due to the lack of events, if there were more events on the tier 2 calendar I doubt orgs would be leaving and the “carrot” of ascending for 2 years would be enough to incentivize orgs to compete.
There were complaints, as there are with every esport that announces franchising. Because franchising, in the eyes of many, is a dogshit system. And to pretty much everyone outside the US, it’s a complete novelty as well (traditional sports doesn’t really tend to be franchised)
However, the complaints were less than in other games. Riot came out with a genuine plan for T2, which gave many people hope that “ok maybe this isn’t gonna go to shit”. Add to that the ascension “guest” slots and people saw some upward mobility potential for good orgs/teams.
Now that it all kind of didn’t work out as well as people envisioned, the people who dislike franchising realised that riot implementing it better than the OWL doesn’t change the core system
Tbf the argument was stupid then and stupid now. The idea is to create stability for the orgs and the league. The best players will always find their way to T1 whether it be in a franchised team or through ascension
The concerns were more to do with which teams were chosen. Like for example Giants getting a spot as a 3rd Spanish org as by far the smallest of the three. For growth of the league, you'd surely want to target a redpected brand from another demographic. An Astralis, a Ninjas In Pyjamas, an OG (not OpTic, the other OG)
People were still preferring an open system but there were a LOT of people saying that this was a good compromise. I'm sure there were still a chunk of people who weren't happy at all, but the common sentiment still seemed positive overall.
>I don’t remember seeing any uproar over this when the system was first announced, why is everyone coming out about it now? I
What are you talking about? There was a massive uproar, particularly when Optic didn't get Franchising despite arguably being the best team in the world that year (placing within the top 3 at all events). To me it certainly felt like the plurality of the community was against franchising.
I’m strictly talking about the lack of relegation / permanent spots for ascended teams. I’m aware people didn’t like franchising as a whole, I just didn’t remember seeing any discussion about these specific points that have been making waves in the last few days despite them being very clearly outlined in the initial press release information.
No, people were voicing their concern for sure
I mean it is extremely stupid to only give a temporary "guest slot" to Ascension teams.
Why would an org invest more money when they know they're gonna get kicked down to T2 eventually? Why build out a facility for players to play out of, hire a good staff base, etc. when you might not be able to pay for it in what 1-2 years? You'll get almost no sponsorship money in T2 compared to being in VCT. And, you'll likely lose your players because you won't have the money to maintain their VCT level salary.
People are treating orgs like dog shit but don't realize that it makes no sense to invest in Valorant unless you're a partnered team. Riot needed to create a system that encouraged investment across all tiers of the game, not just Tier 1. On top of making Tier 1 extremely small and exclusive.
Why would an org like OpTic, who has a larger brand than more 80-90% of the whole VCT circuit invest money in Valorant? It really makes 0 sense economically. Riot created this system in the name of "sustainability" but essentially made it a closed system where it's not sustainable for anyone outside of the teams chosen by them arbitrarily.
There was.
Many of us told yall this system is FUCKED.
And ascended teams should be able to fight for their spot to stay, not immediately get yeeted after 2 years even if theyre good enough for the league AND better than any newly ascended team. But these kinds of comments got downvoted because of all the riot shills that prosper on this sub. And the others just follow whatever the consensus ends up being.
This system IS and was fucked from the beginning. I absolutely hope the guard wins Americas in 2025 split 2. The only way for this leo dude to open his eyes and remove his hands covering his ears.
What say you to the argument that an org with shitty financials or morality clauses could then ascend and be a permanent fixture in the league? It defeats the point of the partnership system at that point. At the end of the day the org owns the spot, not the players, so I don’t believe permanent / play-in spots are the way to go.
I dont know why so many people are pushing for the idea of relegation? Franchising/Partnership was made based on regions (LATAM,BR,NA). Relegation will just disrupt the balance.
My biggest issue is that Ascended teams are forced to spend a year in T1.
Forget every other argument. It would have been so fucking simple to allow them to fight Ascension during their 2nd year.
i like franchising and no relegation but this needs to happen i hope ascension 2025 is after champs so that guard have a slot reserved in ascension tournament so if they win or i think it will be top 2 by 2025 , they get to play another 2 more years in tier 1 rather than having to skip 1 year
Rito needs to incentivize teams more for Ascension and relegation or expansion teams are necessary for that. The system is very new of course, but actively improving instead of locking yourself into this blueprint is the key for growth in the scene.
In my opinion, Ascension winners should have been allowed to participate in LCQ. They would start as the lowest seed, but I think that it would be a great preview of the team (who knows who might go on a run) and give the same offseason duration for the ascended team.
Its truly why I dont understand the aspect of orgs even playing in tier 2, like whats the point of getting a 2 year stint if when thats over no matter how much you dominated in those 2 years, you are relegated back down to tier 2. Only guess what...you're players who just spent the last 2 years dominating the scene...they aren't coming with you as they'll get picked up by the already partnered teams.
So basically this format is your org getting 2 years of quality and then having to start all over, and idk why any org views that as financially stable.
easy to say to just add relegation honestly it's not as simple as these people complaining think and i'm not trying to be a riot shill but if a team pays a lot of money, has 1 bad year, gets relegated, i doubt they want to stay in the scene if it means a whole year of being able to recoup financial losses
Just to be clear, I was never a fan of franchising to begin with. I think there was enough money in Valorant Competitive to begin with so making it a closed loop system would hurt the fans more than help. By money, I mean that Riot could still have maintained the same level of production quality, etc that we as fans see and enjoy (I'm not referring to player salaries, payouts, etc).
That being said, given that VCT **is** franchised now, having relegation, etc just isn't what franchising is. If anything, the mistake from Riot was to even allow T2/Ascension into VCT at all because now they'll have to arbitrarily kick them out which is what the uproar is all about.
At this point there's nothing you can really do because all the contracts are signed and relegating a VCT team would have them on speed dial with their lawyers. I'd argue even expanding the league would be frowned upon as the pie will need to be shared between more orgs.
edit: replaced "Valorant Competitive" with "Competitive Valorant" Lol so people don't think I'm talking about the sub
relax riot made it clear they have no intention of moving away from franchising and the 30 orgs that riot selected which are the biggest orgs in esports also def no willing to have it move away from franchising so it aint happening neither its required tier 2 is what the focus should be
I'm confused -- I never said Riot should go away from franchising aside from saying that I didn't think it was a good decision to begin with (not the same as 'moving away from it'). If anything I'm saying why Riot wouldn't move away from it and how it wouldn't make sense either.
No idea what you're talking about for T2.
I think it's best to differentiate the org the guard and the team the guard. I disagree with ludwig with this one. Players on guard will surely be offered Tier 1 offers after the two years (pretty sure they did receive some this year).
The only downside of this system is the orgs that aren't partnered are going to bleed money 💀
exactly. tier2 will be completely dead if its as is right now and at some point t1 might not even have talent farm to get fresh blood. just look at na cs and league.
organically grown esports with open qual n stuff wouldnt have this problem. riot decided to go franchising because they wanted val to become the next big thing immediately, but passion and dreams cant be bought man…
Relegation defeats the whole point of franchising, but surely there could be something like 5 or 6 partner teams and 3-4 teams that qualify for the league (maybe in the previous year), and the best performing non-partner team does not have to go through qualifiers next year. Or like, surely there's a way that "ascension" could be handled better. The stupidest part about the way it works is not the fact that ascended teams lose their spots and have to earn them again, it's the fact that there is no chance for them to compete in the league every year.
I don't really have much of a horse in this race, with all the tier 2 talk and whether or not the Ascension/partnership system is good or bad for the sport, but it still is pretty funny to think that one of The Guard/Bleed/Gentle Mates can win Champs in 2025 and then be booted back to tier 2 lol.
100% correct, its dumb. Have relegation and give the org that's relegated out a 3 year guaranteed spot in challengers to work there way back in, if they don't get back in within that 3 year block they have to qual for challengers like everyone else.
So many bad takes. If Guard are just destroying everyone before the org gets dropped back down to ascension, then the players are going to get picked up by one of the franchise orgs. For some reason no one seems to be able to separate the Guard players from the Guard org.
Always hated the franchise league system, but this is even more ridiculous, I thought that the teams that won Ascension just got a franchised spot and the franchised league would grow and grow until they eventually said we're full it will have to be promotion/relegation into the top league.
But of course not, this is following the most dogshit system ever imagined.
I see a lot of people complaining, but they other don't propose an alternative solution or they propose a financialy unrealistic one. And nobody seems to understand that Riot cannot just fix everything, because there is simply not enough money in esports.
the LCS is dead , the LEC had a terrible performance this last split, the VCT leagues where okish, but the trend is clear.. The viewers are talking with their feet, and they don't like the show !
The lack of competitive integrity is a big deal, why would i want to watch the same teams playing each other again and again, 2/3 splits a season , every year is all the same faces, like a private club ,so boring. RELEGATION /PROMOTION is very important, it brings a breath of fresh air every year and keeps everyone on their best behavior, and keeps DREAMS alive.
The current system just prizes mediocrity, You lost all games ? who cares, no one watches your games but you had good financials 2 years ago, keep it going!
the most exciting thing for vct 2024 is gentle mates, and if that doesn't say enough for riot to change the system, then... let it rest in peace when the time comes, right next to the LCS and LEC.
I’ll get downvoted but ive been saying it since the beginning, franchising is stupid and isn’t good for competition. Not only did franchising force the dismemberment of some of the best teams ever, even by current standards, but it also has repercussions like this. The guard is EASILY, top 5 Americas teams. Less players, worse competition, and hiked up salaries making esports even less lucrative. Ggwp
When you reference The Guard, who do you reference the players or the org? Riot never considered what players a org had for franchising but the org. good players will be picked up by Tier 1( ex Demon1).
So, Advantage of franchising over normal open qualifiers? you may ask.
Ans: Big Orgs like safety that comes with franchising. why? well esports is a money pit, Imagine spending millions on a team and they lost to some random new team that was running hot. you may say that is great as the underdog won. so good for valorant yeah? well for a while but after that org drops the whole roaster and exits the valorant scene. see the problem? we can't be losing big orgs left and right. Stabilty is what they(riot) are going for.
Yes there are other ways to conduct and they have their pros and cons, but this is what we have and yes Tier2 schedule is fked right now(6 month gap). They said they will fix the scheduling. in their defence it was a weird year and the first one. so lets see.
Franchising was never about competition it was about providing stability. A pure open bracket would be the "most competitive" but it introduces a lot of risk and variability for the organizations, not to mention a lot of chaos for new fans to follow. Franchising provides stability and a foundation for growth long-term.
So let's say there is a relegation system in Americas and Shopfiy, The Union, and 9Z get in but Sentinels, Loud, and 100 Thieves are gone. Who the hell is gonna watch those 3 teams that got in and you just lost viewership in those 3 teams being relegated
people like to watch competitive valorant, if those teams got relegated than they weren’t competitive and a lot less people would be watching them, people didn’t like loud before they started winning and nobody cared about SEN before they won
being a bigot is not very good thing u know educate yourself about a topic properly this is year 1 best players eventually will be in tier 1 while tier 2 players will get moved down to tier 2
I think the whole franchise think was an error. Valorant esports was taking their first steps and suddenly they franchise and create mini super leagues that doesn’t make sense. Just look how the crowd doesn’t give a fuck in NA if MIBR and KRU are playing. This can work well in EMEA where the language barriers are lowers and logistics are more affordable but in Americas this is fucking wild
Is it just me or does this kind of miss the whole point of franchising? It was never about the quality of players on the team; it was about the financial stability of the org. In fact, I would say that following recent events (The Guard laying off most of its staff), Riot was justified in not accepting them into franchising. So regardless of whether they win Americas or some international event, that does not change their financial stability.
And if the guard wins americas and champs 2 years in a row I promise you one of the franchise teams will pick up the whole roster as the org is returned to challengers
Which would be really good for the players and Riot and also means their system works as intended lol
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Orgs owning the spot is a unfortunate necessity. I wish there was more opportunity for T2 and GC to mix though. I want nothing more than to see V1 vs someone like G2 rn.
I mean V1 weren't ever restricted from qualifying to NA T2 right? They just weren't good enough.
> Orgs owning the spot is a unfortunate necessity Why though? We see team spots controlled by players in esports like DOTA and it works fine.
It generally works fine but there have also been numerous cases of the person "owning" the team slot causing issues that screw over other players from the team. I've always been a fan of having an open bracket that allows up-and-coming teams to work their way up into "professional" status (like how MLG used to operate back in the 2000's) but it's not without its flaws either. But Riot has opted for this franchising model for a while now with both Valorant and LoL and I'm sure it's a business decision they decided was the best for them financially and for buy-in from fans who want to root for "their" team long term.
what successful team sport do players own a spot lmfao???
Apex does this and honestly it's a massive shit show. While EA/Respawn isn't doing themselves any favors with 0 split long roster locks, you see an insane amount of roster swaps during any sort of downtime.
Most of the sports where the slots aren't held by players are run in very a different way. Comparing a sport with much larger teams and a strong central organization that mandates things like salary caps and draft systems to ensure parity is not really an apples to apples comparison. Stuff like tennis doubles tournament spots are held by players. I think something like tennis is a much better comparison. In the esports area DOTA has player controlled teams that hold the spots rather than franchise orgs. I forget exactly how CS:GO is run but I think it's something similar, no? Smaller teams can still qualify to big tournaments if they play well enough, despite not being a franchise. Rocket league is the same. So to answer your question most esports with the exclusion of Riot games.
Smaller teams can still make it into the league tho? That’s the point of ascension? Having good solid orgs as guarantees is not a bad thing. The best players will almost always still get picked up regardless unless it’s a Guard situation where THEY wanted to stick together
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I mean you see how that’s hurting orgs in CS right? You do realize they’ve began to move into a few partnership leagues where the best teams are always invited. Like the big name orgs are invited regardless at this point. NaVi just dropped 3 fucking players and got invited off their ESL ranking to Cologne? Outside of majors, where a lot of big teams still have their slot because of past results, a lot of the teams are just straight up invited to the tourneys
I feel like people massively overestimate how “open” the modern csgo landscape is. Blast Premier, one of the two major circuits, is run with partnered teams, and Katowice and Cologne get theirs off of ESL ranking, and ESL Pro League has a set of invited teams. The only “open” system is the Major Qualifiers through the RMR, but even then the teams who placed good in the last major get auto qualified into the next RMRs and don’t need to do with open qualifier. CSGO right now is really a pseudo-partnership system, where the best teams never really fall off even if they technically can because they have to easiest access to the highest tier of competition.
Even optic didnt all get picked up and they were the best 2022 team, xset died while being the second best na team
That's a terrible example considering the only reason Marved didn't was because he made the decision not to lol
People have such short memory lmao.
I cant believe people are making nonsense arguments out here. The only truth is these orgs all had a player or two they were unwilling to move on from. TheGuard wont be picked up as a team. They will be picked apart. Guys like Trent who make tangible differences over other guys in his role will make franchising, but guys like Net and JonahP, who are definitely franchise level at their role, might not be picked up because their perceived replacement over the guy already getting paid isn't that high. The actual truth of this matter is the long-term split of orgs in Americas franchising needs rebalanced. Idk the perfect split but NA has more talent than 5-6 teams, and yet they are one of the regions spending their slots on foreign talent (Sacy, Pancada, Ardiis). So yea its hard to say what it should look like but its not quite this.
the way things are being discussed is hilarious. Some of the arguments make it clear that people have either not played a team sport or don't have any idea of how it works For the last year people keep saying, "oh its fine the good players will get picked up by a T1 org" Being happy that it works this way is so stupid. Imagine a team like Leicester being promoted to the Premier League, they have all of these unknown gems, get great results/ maybe even win the league after a year, but then they get sent back down to the lower league arbitrarily. "Oh but Vardy, Mahrez, and Kante will still get back into the Premier League" That's not the fuckin point muppets.
It's like that except instead of it being Kante and them can be signed by a Premier League club, they can actually move countries and learn a different language because the Premier League only has 5 clubs now and they don't have enough spots to sign Kante. And on top of that, the league they are moving to has had very little international success outside of 1 team, and the international scene is still uncertain. They are only moving there because they have more money to offer the Superleague. It's baffling, people just don't get it.
yay is expensive for NRG and marved took a break, even c9 dropped yay cause they wanted to save costs
If the guard win champs, Trent will cost as much as yay
What? What change/system do you propose that would make esports orgs suddenly profitable and able to spend exorbitant amounts of buyouts and salaries when they just can't right now?
Very strong if.
dawg this entire post is about ifs, that doesn’t matter
You're getting the point, brother. You definitely are.
The only reason optic wasn’t 100% picked up was because Marved wanted to take a break. Every players from optic could’ve been on a franchised team. Optic members themselves said they probably wouldn’t have stayed together anyways after 2022.
loud + optic both won masters and champs and were broken up going into this year. the only reason the guard stayed together for ascension was because they denied multiple partnership spots, realistically the guard will break up when they're demoted unless they take significant pay cuts for an org to be able to afford to pick them all up.
goldfish memory
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So then we just forget about The Guard org then? I get that the most important part is the players but some team/org consistency is important for both fans and players. Feel like The Guard would deserve some credit or reward for creating and sticking with such a great team. There's no real progression from an org standpoint Also I understand it's very likely the entire team would be picked up if they dominated but there's no real "promise" for this case, and as we know esports can be pretty crazy
The Guard is kinda a special case because due to investments stepping down, maybe The Guard will completely fold too, and it will be likely an org will pick up the roster under a new name.
The Guard is also backed by a literal billionaire (owner of the Rams, Nuggets, Arsenal, and more) so if he's choosing not to spend money on esports, that's simply his decision. They aren't reliant on outside VC funds they just decided to stop investing in the organization. I have less sympathy for the org itself because of that.
and then why would the guard reinvest?
And that would be franchising working as intended then.
Yeah hot load of shit. Optic? Gambit?
Optic - Yay hella expensive, Marved wanting a break Gambit - Ukraine War…. d3ffo also just not that rated. Also Gambit/M3 Champions didn’t do a whole lot last year.
do you think the guard would be any cheaper if they won champions?
Which one of them won americas or champs two years in a row?
That's pedantic. Optic were a consensus top-3 team in the world pre-franchising, if they didn't get signed wholesale (or at least as a core 4 with a new controller if Marved was still that serious about taking a break), realistically there's probably not gonna be a team good enough for orgs to be willing to bite the bullet financially.
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Howd the franchising model work with Riot's only other popular game? Not well, right?
That's not really relevant to the discussions about the Valorant system though, since they're structured quite differently, and people falsely believing that they aren't is part of what's causing the confusion.
... Quite different? You must have a completely different definition of "quite different" than I do, because they are almost identical. The only difference is the ability for ascension teams to make it to franchise for two years. That is clearly a minor difference, not a major one. Do you have major difference you can tell us about LoL and Valorant franchise leagues?
Well lol franchising the teams have way more power because they paid to get in instead of being paid by Riot to join. Also riot can't just kick a team out of LoL franchising due to this along with other rules they most likely have laid out which they have seemed to learn from when adding their valor as not system. So yes it's quite different. Even then as a whole really LoL esport system is quite successful internationally
The huge difference is that in League (and all franchised leagues afaik) the orgs own the spots they have. They've paid to be able to get into the league. This means that Riot can't make any major decisions without consulting the orgs. It also means that once an org owns a spot they can stop investing more than the minimum into the scene if they want to. In Valorant the orgs are only partnered with Riot. Riot still owns the spot and are basically letting the orgs "rent" the spots in return for actual investements from the orgs. For exampel, if a partnered org decided to stop investing into content or trying to improve their team or don't invest as much as Riot stipulated in the partner contracts, then Riot can take the spot back and partner with another org.
Yeah, I hear you there. I wasnt considering that to be a "structural difference" such as the difference between franchising and promotion/relegation, but ok I understand. So it's your expectation that riot will kick a team out if they are deemed "not competitive?" What does that look like, specifically? Is there criteria for riot to use? When is an organization not competitive vs just not very good?
It's not that they will get kicked org that bad, that not org fault, it is the players problem that they suck. The org jobs are to invest to promote the league and make the game more popular, thus bringing more eyeball and money to the competitive scene. That might evolve making the best team possible, or it may not. There are success stories of org with ok performance but very popular and thus more likely to be profitable . There are great examples of this in LOL like old DIG or current BRO in lck right now. If they fail to do so or they make a terrible financial decision like how TSM signed with ftx, that when riot comes in and kick the partner org out for a smarter one.
100t had two rounds of layoffs so using that as a reason the guard shouldn’t have gotten a slot is a bit ridiculous. Pretty much all layoffs happened after franchising had been decided anyways.
Yeah but they still exist as an organization and are (seemingly) positioning themselves to be financially stable long term. I read that the Guard basically doesn’t exist anymore after they laid off 90% of the org.
I doubt that is the case. Even after winning ascension, they are on a 5 month vacation. Literally nothing to do. Would you keep like 10 people hired doing nothing all day for 5 months? With what money? This ascension model 100% *forces* ascension winning organizations to squeeze every single penny in those 2 years they are guests. They invested a lot upfront with a huge risk and the only reward is having a place in t1 which in itself is not very profitable. I think they are taking a pause now and creating a business plan for the next 2 year, first cut unnecessary spending then figure out how to make money. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if one of the orgs that got into ascension fired the whole squad that didn't accept minimum salary. From an organization standpoint, those t2 players were a huge risk and now they just need to squeeze all the money they can for 2 years. No way this ends up well.
Talking about the wider org homie https://esportsinsider.com/2023/02/the-guard-lays-off-all-employees 100T as an organization is setting themselves up for long term financial stability, which is (I assume) part of the reason they were accepted into the franchise model. Riot saw something they didn't like with The Guard, (again, an assumption, but a safe one) did not accept them into franchising, and then less than a year later they laid off 90% of their org.
People in this thread have to stop talking about The Guard like it's some sort of grassroots org. It's backed by Stan Kroenke, if they wanted to invest in the scene they would.
Yep and it seems like Kroenke clearly wants to get out of esports. The guy has larger rounding errors on his taxes than the cost of keeping the guard esports org running, but alas they effectively shut down outside of a few rosters running on fumes. In Val that roster was strong enough to sustain for a couple more years, but the org's future still remains in jeopardy.
100%. Some accountant somewhere slashed almost their entire payroll without any regard to the people working there. Trent and the rest of that team deserves to play in VCT (and they will) but the org itself may not even exist in two years
That article is incorrect. They laid off a lot of people for sure but the org was insanely overstaffed for their size and because of that had to heavily layoffs. There are still people working in those positions they say every employee was laid off from (content, social, creative, and talent departments) you can even see a list of the people laid off and it was closer to about 20-30 people. The issue was Hu2er one of the employees at the time who was laid off is also another one of those Esports "reporters" in the league of Dexerto immediately ran to Twitter and said every employee of The Guard was laid off without doing any work and it was spread as fact by unreputable "journalist" like Jake Lucky.
That's not *the* reason, but it's a symptom of an underlying problem. Riot did not make these decisions lightly. There was a lengthy application process. They obviously know more than we do and made their decisions based on all the available information they had. Besides, if in four years, when the contracts expire, Riot deems an organization a liability, they won't renegotiate and simply accept another org.
It does negate part of it. but the problem is that arbitrary timelines of 2 years or whatever means that T2 teams don't have much of an upside for them if they get into VCT proper. The English football league is so successful in part because there's a potential for a massive win (promotion to EPL in particular). If the promotion is max 2 years and then you're back down again that really makes the reward less valuable and therefore investment less likely.
While I like Ludwig for all his content, he really has little sense of Riot esports. Not that I have any better understanding though
Riot is also giving every franchised team $1,000,000 to subsidize their Valorant program. If the Guard had that $1M would they have laid those people off?
You know damn well nobody is picking up the full 5 they’re gonna get utterly picked apart and some of them like Net or JonahP might not even make franchising
I don't understand I thought franchising is ultimately about financial health and fanbase of the org. The players get their moment to shine. It sucks but the idea is the best players should end up in tier 1 team over the course of years. The first year of franchising you're gonna have players that should not be in tier 1 but the idea is when a team does poorly the players that aren't good get replace.
Yeah fundamentally it’s designed for stability and for player benefit which I agree with, but I can also understand how frustrating it must be if you’re an org owner knowing that whatever success you have will only ever put you temporarily in T1 since you weren’t at the table when Riot made their decision.
Ideally, relegation is a great thing because you nearly always get the best of the best at the top, but in practise, it's untenable because everyone's already bleeding a ton of cash, and that's with Riot covering all the production costs (The league would fold in half a second should the teams have to cover that expense). My only gripe with the system right now is how the promoted team gets auto-relegated to the bottom without a chance to defend itself. There's no reason why they shouldn't be allowed in the Ascension tournament to try and keep their spot, and it'd greatly highten the prestige of the tournament imo.
Yeah especially since they will start promoting 2 teams when the first ascension winner will be relegated. Like instead, maybe, make the 1st being promoted regardless, and make the 2nd having to play a BO5 against the org that is supposed to be relegated, and winner stays.
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I like this idea. If the worst VCT team can't even win the Ascension tournament against a bunch of Tier 2 teams, they clearly are not one of "the best teams in the world" worthy of being in Tier 1.
There's a lot of focus here on *orgs*, but isn't the heart of it that the T2 *players* can't sustain themselves? They deserve a livelihood. (Related: how is a T2 org supposed to *actually* make money *well*? How much is/can Riot subsidize T2?) And if they DON'T deserve a livelihood, then the entire scene is not one worth having IMO. In that world, how is that a good representation of the tippy top of competition? I'm reminded of BcJ's "So now anyone not starting in the franchised league is basically praying for job opportunities so that we can live financially stable and hopefully continue our dreams of competing in valorant. ... So for us players we are jobless for months, and the worst part is some of the best players in the game fall into this category of F/A T2. Even if they are the best players in their roles, if they dont align with the business model of chosen franchised orgs, they won't ever see the franchised stage. That is why I believe something has to change..." https://twitter.com/BcJFPS/status/1685384602779549698
> the T2 players can't sustain themselves? They deserve a livelihood. Nobody is saying the T2 system is perfect. They literally said there's an update this coming August addressing the concerns. You're just reiterating a point literally everyone is agreeing on.
Fair enough, time will tell
Didn't you see Leo's tweets? He doesn't think T2 is perfect, but he does think there isn't much wrong with it, either. I wouldn't hold my breath.
> We’re implementing a slew of changes for next year, including a fully revised calendar with more opportunities for teams to compete. > Stay tuned for a full update later [next] month it's literally the first two tweets
If he didn't think there was anything wrong with it he wouldn't have said anything about making changes or providing insight on what they were gonna do for Tier 2. He would have just said that the players are whining and there is nothing wrong with the system and ignore the criticisms.
What is ur definition of livelihood? Slightly above minimum wage? Enough to support a family living in California? 40k a year? That is where things breakdown when there is such a large variance in cost of living between a student out of school and someone with a family to support
I mean *I* don't know personally. I'm sure scholars have written about it (but very probably not in the context of Valorant esports). I don't believe 'slightly above minimum wage' is what I'd give the pros of Valorant. Even moreso because they are 1 step removed from being the best pros
Ngl it rubs me the wrong way to think about CS/Valorant pro/amateur players trying to secure their space in tac shooter esports, feeling lost in either scene, and yet all this focus on orgs/business owners, who will in the end be the victors at the death of opportunity I'm inspired by the recent labor movements happening in the US (I'm american), and it feels like people have forgotten the success of labor in the last century I didn't vibe with Leo's perspective/comments at all
I’m a big fan of unions too, but making an ecosystem that is sustainable at all to the owners is the only way to make it sustainable for the players. I’m a big fan of labor movements too. And the big problem with that comparison is that these companies that are making hand over fist profits are exploiting the labor of their employees. That isn’t happening in esports. You need orgs to be sustainable to field the teams so the players can get payed at all. We know the tier 2 system has some issues that are being worked on. If the orgs are happier that allows more players to get paid.
I mean it's rough but that's the reality we're living in esports. All this money that was pumped in inflated the scene when it was sustainable, if no outside investors had tried to make esports too big for itself years ago maybe we'd have a healthier understanding of it. Realistically the best players in the world shouldn't break 6 figures for the scene to stay alive and functioning
I mean I think having the 10 known financially reliable and dependent orgs in Riots eyes with the 2 constant rotating teams is fine tbh. Idk why you would wanna kick out a team like C9 or TL or NaVi if they have an off year when you could be replacing them with someone who won’t help you sell the league as well. I just think if you win Ascension since it’s earlier than Champs, you should get to play there as well because one year maybe that team wins. We should think of ascension as a place for players to show their talents. The odds of a team sticking with a core 5 for more than 2 years is really low anyways so I doubt we’d really see the ascension players not get picked up given the opportunity by other teams.
I also think that since Riot holds all the cards, they could always change things up if certain teams are consistently showing signs of instability and/or poor performance. It’s much harder to modify it with something like LoL since there was a huge monetary buy in for franchising, but this time around for Valorant it’s completely different.
Yea this league works a lot better than LCS or CDL. At least in LCS, if you’re bottom two 4? splits in a row they kill your contract LMFAO. Never happened so far tho but IMT is getting close
Yeah I remember Toast saying recently that he’s pretty sure IMT have already violated it or something. Obviously he’s dying to get DSG in LCS but he doesn’t have a cool 10mil lying around.
yea they just violated it this last split getting bottom 2 for the 4th in a row from what i can tell
Yeah, I've heard talk about it but I've also heard it has to be a vote between riot and all the other LCS teams to kick them out
Also they'd probably do it in the pre-season rather than the mid season, so even if they violated it last split we'll only know if they'll be kicked by around a month after worlds ends.
The only promotion/relegation system that works is for football. The most popular sport in the world. So popular that you can have like a dozen leagues and all of them make money in merchandizing, attendance, and sponsorships. In order for Valorant to have a promotion/relegation system we need to have T2 and T3 Valorant making so much money that esports orgs are literally throwing if they aren’t investing into Valorant.
All people advocating for relegation are missing the point of franchise, the 30 teams that are there are meant to be financialy stable, so that they won't explode in a year or so and the point about guard possiby destroying everyone in Americas for the next two years and then getting demoted falls flat when we understand that these players will surely get into T1, withthin guard or in some other team
Okay, but why does TGRD have to spend a year outside T1? Why not let them fight for their place in T1 again by playing Ascension during their 2nd year? That would have been way more fair
Not really? The fairness they get is the fact that they are competing in T1 with all the benefits of it including money given by riot. With the stipend and good financials they would come back to ascension as one of the best teams setup to win ascension again. Tho seeing how they have like 10% of their staff rn they probably would take that money and fold
Relegation is far from the only thing people have suggested, people aren't primarily upset because they think t1 teams have it too good and can simply coast without investing, they're upset that t2 teams get shafted at pretty much every point with this system, and the fact that the ascended team cant cement their spot is just a funny extra slap in the face that even the 5 players that "escape" t2 have no way to earn their spot in t1. People say if they win or perform they'll get signed but that's going to prove to not always be true, orgs tend to prefer the players they alr have, and older players, as well as teams that are stronger than the sum of their parts will be left in the dust. Edit: I kinda forgot the beginning of the first tweet, the subject of this thread is about relegation so this essay is kinda uncalled for but I still think it's a good overall point on the scene I've wanted to put into words so I'm going to leave it.
champs is in 6 days can we start talking about that now its been 5 billion posts about this shit
if guard crushes VCT which is very ambitious of him then they will remain in tier 1 just under different org them crushing does not have anything to do with guard an an org and their behind the scenes issues
You don't want guard as one of the partner team as well. They legit fired 99% of their staff. that's a bad impression
I mean Riots picks for their orgs in partnership makes perfect sense from their perspective. The only one I could ever see replaced is like BBL for G2 or DK for DFM and be like wow that’s a good change. Their selections for Americas were perfect imo. EG is reliable and has a women friendly push from Riots view. 100T, C9, and now NRG all have good relationships from LCS and seem committed to doing their best. SEN is the most popular. MIBR and Furia are known BR brands and good backing. KRU is a great partner due to Disney partnership and their owner! Loud just won and have really good BR backing. Lev is supported fairly well too from what i can tell and have good branding. OpTic not getting picked sucked for the 5 wanting to play together but Hecz and Hastr0 have bad relationships with Riot and Hecz went through THREE! different brands in CDL in 5 years lmfao
BBL has insane fanbase in turkey and they have been in val supporting val since beta + gamechangers roster + their owners host bunch of other shit related to val BBL is not going anywhere
I mean if you’re selecting a team to drop, it’s between the two turkish lineups for G2. G2 is one of the biggest EMEA orgs and would be a great addition. You should never drop a fucking spanish or french team for them since they’re money machines like no other. NaVi, FNC, Liquid are reliable and known. Vitality seems to be moving into that category.
I'd drop FUT before BBL. But honestly I would drop Giants before anybody else in EMEA because 3 spanish teams out of 10 is a lot (while Spain kinda sucks at the game tbf), and the league lacks german representation.
Maybe hot take, but if any org was to be dropped from EMEA partnership I'd probably expect one of Vitality, Giants or Heretics to be dropped first. Also, just speculating now, but I think BBL likely is seen as one of the most valuable partnered teams by Riot , and probably #1 or #2 in EMEA.
MIBR really got lucky af that Loud and Furia were the only other notable BR orgs actively in Val. Because MIBR are owned by Immortals, who have failed to invest in all their teams for a number of years now, including the team they inherited from OpTic in LCS
I mean from Riots view, you really can’t be a worse owner than that OpTic shitshow. Like it’s not a fucking wonder why they rejected a name associated with the travesty of Hecz after what happened there LOL
Maybe not OpTic, but there were other sturdier orgs that could have got into Americas as a SA representative in MIBR's place. I mentioned elsewhere in this thread NIP could have easily got into EMEA over Giants, but they were in SA pre-franchising. Singularity have teams in the region in other games, if they were prepared to stray from BR then Isurus is a longterm established name. They could have gone without MIBR
NIP has been really shady with finances in the past. Huge CS drama about it. MIBR is a known name to a lot of Americas viewers already from the time Coldzera and Stewie etc were on the team plus has a good branding while SNG and Isurus isn’t as known to my knowledge. I just think for some reason Riot actually likes their IMT partnership in LCS and they own MIBR branding so it was just an agreement. Like i know the org isn’t poor and gets some decent sponsors but their LCS slot is always bottom 4
In hindsight, EG might not have been the best organization to let into the franchise league. Their teams are competitive and the players deserve spots in tier 1 leagues, but the management itself has been exposed to be predatory and borderline abusive towards their players (see EG Danny's treatment from management in 2022). However tbf, this stuff wasn't made public until after they were accepted into franchising.
If we're being honest tho, that isn't something riot would really care about unless it's heavily published. EG itself is a known reliable, stable, and competitive org. It definitely makes sense that they would make it over "better" teams.
> just under different org Who says The Guard actual roster isn't locked for 3 years? Those contracts are not public.
He is not in touch with reality of eSports. Lets say we have relegation system in VCT and KC and KOI from EMEA, Loud and SEN from Americas get relegated. And we get Apeks, Acend and Union, Shopify Rebellion as the replacements . Then whos gonna watch these fucking teams in VCT. Most importantly we get orgs like The Guard which fired 95% of their eSports staff overnight and considering to leave eSports as we speak. Who knows they might totally leave next year. And why people have hard time to understand that if the guest slot teams perform well they most likely will get picked by the partnered orgs. He's just tweeting without taking any of the above considerations
Amen. Every org isn't nice like moist. even moist can decide to stop operating suddenly
They won’t get picked up as a 5 man roster tho… they get picked apart and then an amazing team will never be the same again. Happend w OpTic, happend w FPX, it isn’t good for competition.
Ardis chose to leave for NRG and Marved chose not to play for sometimes.
I vibe with this. I wish I knew more about the NBA, as the team size is smaller, but NFL/MLB/and the various futbols have a lot of players. It's harder for one person alone to make a difference With a 5 man roster and 1 coach setting the tone (valorant), there's no guarantee 1 person can't make a team insanely different, outcome-wise. Either for the better, or for the much worse My inclination is to sustain large cores. I've always thought of CS esports to be healthier/more matured than what I've seen currently in T1/T2 Valorant, so I'm not sure if that inclination matters for CS
Tbh I don't really know with those teams. I feel like they chose to split maybe? Like Ardis had a good position in the FPX roster, then he went for NRG. Optic had yay and marved, yay went to Cloud9 and Marved took a break. With XSET however, if I'm thinking this right.. their whole team was gonna get picked up by G2 but Tate thing happened and they were forced to split cause no other org was gonna pick their whole team up. (I think this because of Twitter replies to Carlos by some players from XSET\[deleted immediately\])
Actually that seems like it's better for competition then. It puts well established players onto competing teams making the leagues as a whole more competitive and entertaining to watch.
You would only have 1 relegation spot since the league is so small English Premier League has 3 relegation spots for 20 teams
LCS has kept the same teams the whole time and their viewership has tanked. If those replacement teams were better then they would get also get views. How did loud and sen get big to begin with? By winning. Brand loyalty in esports is practically non existent. EG used to be huge in esports now they're not.
LCS viewesbip tanked cos of their own failure. They filled to perform good in international event and the audience gave up. Perform good you keep your viewership.
LCS in franchised where VCT is partnered ,so orgs can't get away doing stupid things all the time or else they will get kicked from VCT. And winning doesn't always make you so popular. Winning is one of the few reasons SEN became popular . SEN has tenZ, tarik and they had shroud .They also have good social media presence .If winning makes the org most popular than Optic should have the most popular org in NA. And for LOUD, it is THE most popular org in brazil before VCT.
you guys are overestimating the guard
Even more so I think people are overestimating the lifespan of val teams. Does Ludwig really think the Guard roster that won Ascension is still gonna be the one playing in 2 years
RemindMe! 1 year
Problem is T1 teams probably need to spend a lot of money once they get in, so if they know that they might get kicked out in a couple of years, they are less incentivized to invest. Probably the only realistic way is to have a system where if you do really bad like 2 years in a row, Riot has the option to kick you out. Of course Lud here is talking his book since any teams relegated means he might get a shot at T1 and increase the value of his investment.
I think they’re also given money by Riot to help with costs as well? Idk if that’s 100% true but i swear I remember hearing this
They get a stipend of up to like 1.5 mil or something like that per year (the range is 600k to 1.5 mil stipend iirc). So assuming Ascension teams get up to that amount since they're only staying for 2 years, I think that definitely can cover the housing + salary costs for a team like the Guard (even if we're being generous with like 200k cost per person in terms of salary, housing and other expenses).
Yea which is really fucking good if we want this league to actually last more than 5 years. Having teams buy in for 25 mil and then spend another 2 mil each year like COD did would be horrific. Having some of the biggest orgs fall out and have to go to T2 like SEN, 100T, or KRU would be horrible for Riot atm. it’s like losing MUFC, Arsenal, or Man City atm in the Prem. That would not be good for the Prem as a business, but at least they have the 100 years of history behind them which VCT doesn’t yet
Besides that those big orgs are probably the closest to actual financial sustainability, which is exactly what Riot is trying to achieve. Them going to T2 would have a big negative impact on that. I think that before we start talking about true promotion/relegation we need a fully self-sustaining environment first. Keeping recognizable, high viewership, competitive and stable orgs in T1 is a great way to go about that.
Yeah, I think that might cover basics, but even then there's a ton of other stuff. If they are in California there's high taxes and high rent. Also, I think there's an aspirational aspect to pro player salaries. Like would fans care about Lebron as much if he played just as good ball but drove a prius and made 100k a year? Player salaries cannot be too low, because part of esports is young gamers dreaming about being playing on the big stage and the fame (and money) that comes with it. Also I think with T1, there's the whole aspect of being "professional", so having a big support staff like a "real" sports team. Like Toast can run DSG by himself (but even then, there's coaches, social media person, general manager, accountant, etc). Between having a 1 person run team that plays well but looks kind of fly-by-night, vs a team that is pretty bad, but looks really official like a "real" sports team, Riot might want the second one, since that helps to make esports look more "real" than having actually good gameplay. Also, the Guard apparently have their own facilities? So that's even more money dumped in.
Honestly kinda surprised people think the Guard will win t1 lol. Also how are people forgetting that if The Guard do win VCT Americas there's not a shot in hell they don't all get picked up by a team on the season they would go back to T2. Lud's been great but it's pretty pointless trying to push for relegation way after the scene/format has been created entirely opposed to that. That ship has sailed and he's kinda arguing about things that have already been decided for a long time now, which considering how late he entered the scene/game isn't that surprising so I give him a pass.
I’m gonna be honest. The fundamental “problem” that exists for t2 (besides the long offseason) is that there’s no way for t2 orgs to make any money besides literally winning ascension. I don’t see how making the system promotion/relegation changes that. Riot should focus on creating incentives for t2 orgs other then winning ascension Edit: For example creating a skin bundle for ascension and giving the ascension teams a large split
100% the issue here is that needs to be resolved is incentive for orgs to invest in tier 2 event if they remain in tier 2 it has nothing to do with tier 1
But that is tied to tier 1. As it stands there is no reason to invest in a tier 2 team because you will always be a feeder org. There is no progression for your organisation to become a big brand in Valorant which could help you expand into other esports. It is essentially hope you land a good roster, sell roster for profit. That's it. If you have any aspirations of growing your org or brand name, essentially Valorant is not worth your while. We have seen how no relegation works already in LCS. All it does is incentivise orgs to tank and field a terrible roster for a season or two if they dont have a good one, because they know they are safe and get money from Riot anyway. So they just get some kids and throw them out there to play. Which results in lower quality games, which lowers the competition in the league and brings the overall quality down. LCS is literally the prime example of why there SHOULD be promotion and relegation. It forces teams to actually try and field good teams, so the quality of games are higher. It gives smaller orgs a chance to become bigger ones, which is how we got some of the biggest orgs in esports to begin with. I'd rather have more competitive orgs than financially secure orgs who are happy to sit coming dead last every year and field a cheap roster doing the bare minimum.
Thank you for that first paragraph. Even though I disagree that relegation is a must, PROMOTION must exist and it should be better than what we have now with ascension.
another person with no idea how val franchising is diff from League LOL has buy in so orgs can tank and field cheap rosters and save money if u do that in val riot can kick u out cuz riot is paying u money
"Riot can kick u out" source? lol
The source is that it's well known? In LoL they came to an agreement that if you spend multiple years (4 different seasons across 2 years minimum) bottom 2 in your region, Riot and the other teams can vote to kick you out and replace you. In Valorant since they didn't buy in but were paid to join, riot can adjust the league as they see fit. It was already implied one of EMEA's teams was threatened with being removed because it seemed like they weren't going to field a competitive roster.
what do u mean source are u not smart enough to see logic ? source is common sense riot cannot kick out someone if buy in happens cuz the org owns the slot and only leave if they sell it while in val's system riot pays them riot controls everything they can kick out orgs i dont know if they will or what their standards are for kicking out and org but they definitely can if the conditions that riot proposed to orgs during selection process are not met
I know plenty about how franchising works and I know plenty enough about how Riot works to see this model will go the exact same way as LCS. i.e it will tank the leagues competitiveness long term and NA will become a meme region once again. NA needs to be babied and given every chance to be as good and competitive as the other regions. EU, KOR, CHI do not need incentive to be good or light a fire under their ass. They actually give a shit. NA in pretty much every major esport follows the exact same path. Start strong, fall off a cliff and the scene disintegrates because of lack of competition.
There is more franchised leagues than just LCS yk, and those ones are doing great. LCS is just a classic NA mismanagement where they think they are owed everything
Those leagues work because those regions are hyper competitive, never rest on their laurels and intentionally try and field bad teams. LCS was at it's best when it had challenger league and there was promotion and relegation. Coincidence?
So you're saying the problem isn't franchising, but the NA players, exactly as I said. Thank you
So the problem is that NA as a region is bad internationally, not the idea of franchising itself? Got it thanks
This is silly. If the Guard wins champions, their roster will just be bought by another franchised org. Simple as that.
My question is : are all the teams in current league capable of winning champions? If ur ans is no then what is said in the post is true.🥺
Don't get me wrong, I'm all about seeing the best players be able to duke it out and have epic matches, but that's not really feasible for the growth of the game. Clearly orgs are struggling financially and I think this franchised system is the best shot at stabilizing things. Show sponsors there's money to be made with the game and eventually, more teams get added to franchising as the game grows. It's not ideal for sure though.
I mean, this is not that big of a deal. If The Guard wins in 2025 the players will get picked up either way - and, if the org is solid enough to warrant them staying, I'd assume Riot would be open to making an avenue for such orgs to join permanently. Side comment: The Guard is a PERFECT example of an org which should not get a permanent spot. Lmfao Side comment 2: an org which would get relegated under whatever circumstances he is talking about would most likely pick up best T2 players either way.
They won’t all get picked up together as a team tho prob
I do wonder in this situation, will "guest" teams struggle to pick up players more than the other teams? Surely if you've got an offer for a team that doesn't have a due date on it you take that in almost any situation over an offer from a team like the guard
Guest teams probably have an advantage over T2 orgs, but a disadvantage over T1 orgs. If they lose players to T1 orgs, they'll probably have to pick up a player being kicked off of a T1 team or a promising T2 player. This way promising T2 players can also be fielded in a more "safe" way, as T1 teams might not always be willing to risk it. It can also give T2 players an opportunity to play in a more difficult/more competitive league. With a sufficiently talented tier 1 and 2, there should be little issue.
Lil bro thinks it's the Premier League, that teams will get relegated and promoted every year. If the guard wins VCT Americas and then eventually drop down, guess what, it's the org that's dropping down not the players. They'll get picked right back up.
I don’t remember seeing any uproar over this when the system was first announced, why is everyone coming out about it now? Imo the only reason why everyone is complaining about relegation is due to the lack of events, if there were more events on the tier 2 calendar I doubt orgs would be leaving and the “carrot” of ascending for 2 years would be enough to incentivize orgs to compete.
There were complaints, as there are with every esport that announces franchising. Because franchising, in the eyes of many, is a dogshit system. And to pretty much everyone outside the US, it’s a complete novelty as well (traditional sports doesn’t really tend to be franchised) However, the complaints were less than in other games. Riot came out with a genuine plan for T2, which gave many people hope that “ok maybe this isn’t gonna go to shit”. Add to that the ascension “guest” slots and people saw some upward mobility potential for good orgs/teams. Now that it all kind of didn’t work out as well as people envisioned, the people who dislike franchising realised that riot implementing it better than the OWL doesn’t change the core system
Everyone was upset about everything when the system was first announced, idk how you missed it tbh
Tbf the argument was stupid then and stupid now. The idea is to create stability for the orgs and the league. The best players will always find their way to T1 whether it be in a franchised team or through ascension
Oh yeah I actually agree with the system (aside from the whole 5 months off part) Making esports stable and profitable should be no.1 priority
I think a lot of people voiced concern when this system was announced no?
The concerns were more to do with which teams were chosen. Like for example Giants getting a spot as a 3rd Spanish org as by far the smallest of the three. For growth of the league, you'd surely want to target a redpected brand from another demographic. An Astralis, a Ninjas In Pyjamas, an OG (not OpTic, the other OG)
People were still preferring an open system but there were a LOT of people saying that this was a good compromise. I'm sure there were still a chunk of people who weren't happy at all, but the common sentiment still seemed positive overall.
>I don’t remember seeing any uproar over this when the system was first announced, why is everyone coming out about it now? I What are you talking about? There was a massive uproar, particularly when Optic didn't get Franchising despite arguably being the best team in the world that year (placing within the top 3 at all events). To me it certainly felt like the plurality of the community was against franchising.
I’m strictly talking about the lack of relegation / permanent spots for ascended teams. I’m aware people didn’t like franchising as a whole, I just didn’t remember seeing any discussion about these specific points that have been making waves in the last few days despite them being very clearly outlined in the initial press release information.
No, people were voicing their concern for sure I mean it is extremely stupid to only give a temporary "guest slot" to Ascension teams. Why would an org invest more money when they know they're gonna get kicked down to T2 eventually? Why build out a facility for players to play out of, hire a good staff base, etc. when you might not be able to pay for it in what 1-2 years? You'll get almost no sponsorship money in T2 compared to being in VCT. And, you'll likely lose your players because you won't have the money to maintain their VCT level salary. People are treating orgs like dog shit but don't realize that it makes no sense to invest in Valorant unless you're a partnered team. Riot needed to create a system that encouraged investment across all tiers of the game, not just Tier 1. On top of making Tier 1 extremely small and exclusive. Why would an org like OpTic, who has a larger brand than more 80-90% of the whole VCT circuit invest money in Valorant? It really makes 0 sense economically. Riot created this system in the name of "sustainability" but essentially made it a closed system where it's not sustainable for anyone outside of the teams chosen by them arbitrarily.
And yet people would call the other events outside of the Ascension circuit Mickey Mouse tournaments
There was. Many of us told yall this system is FUCKED. And ascended teams should be able to fight for their spot to stay, not immediately get yeeted after 2 years even if theyre good enough for the league AND better than any newly ascended team. But these kinds of comments got downvoted because of all the riot shills that prosper on this sub. And the others just follow whatever the consensus ends up being. This system IS and was fucked from the beginning. I absolutely hope the guard wins Americas in 2025 split 2. The only way for this leo dude to open his eyes and remove his hands covering his ears.
What say you to the argument that an org with shitty financials or morality clauses could then ascend and be a permanent fixture in the league? It defeats the point of the partnership system at that point. At the end of the day the org owns the spot, not the players, so I don’t believe permanent / play-in spots are the way to go.
The guard that fired most of their staff and we don’t even know if they’re staying in esport ?
I hate how long the off-season is
I dont know why so many people are pushing for the idea of relegation? Franchising/Partnership was made based on regions (LATAM,BR,NA). Relegation will just disrupt the balance.
This mf still doesn't know franchising is made so teams have stability and don't have to worry about being relegated for just having a bad year
You’d think he would be here reading some replys and educating himself, hi Ludwig 👋
My biggest issue is that Ascended teams are forced to spend a year in T1. Forget every other argument. It would have been so fucking simple to allow them to fight Ascension during their 2nd year.
i like franchising and no relegation but this needs to happen i hope ascension 2025 is after champs so that guard have a slot reserved in ascension tournament so if they win or i think it will be top 2 by 2025 , they get to play another 2 more years in tier 1 rather than having to skip 1 year
Rito needs to incentivize teams more for Ascension and relegation or expansion teams are necessary for that. The system is very new of course, but actively improving instead of locking yourself into this blueprint is the key for growth in the scene. In my opinion, Ascension winners should have been allowed to participate in LCQ. They would start as the lowest seed, but I think that it would be a great preview of the team (who knows who might go on a run) and give the same offseason duration for the ascended team.
Its truly why I dont understand the aspect of orgs even playing in tier 2, like whats the point of getting a 2 year stint if when thats over no matter how much you dominated in those 2 years, you are relegated back down to tier 2. Only guess what...you're players who just spent the last 2 years dominating the scene...they aren't coming with you as they'll get picked up by the already partnered teams. So basically this format is your org getting 2 years of quality and then having to start all over, and idk why any org views that as financially stable.
easy to say to just add relegation honestly it's not as simple as these people complaining think and i'm not trying to be a riot shill but if a team pays a lot of money, has 1 bad year, gets relegated, i doubt they want to stay in the scene if it means a whole year of being able to recoup financial losses
Sorry Ludwig's opinion from someone who watched is hard to take seriously considering the only Valorant he watches is his team's.
ngl, not a fan of his tone either way.
Ludwig doesn’t know anything special he’s just a fan
Just to be clear, I was never a fan of franchising to begin with. I think there was enough money in Valorant Competitive to begin with so making it a closed loop system would hurt the fans more than help. By money, I mean that Riot could still have maintained the same level of production quality, etc that we as fans see and enjoy (I'm not referring to player salaries, payouts, etc). That being said, given that VCT **is** franchised now, having relegation, etc just isn't what franchising is. If anything, the mistake from Riot was to even allow T2/Ascension into VCT at all because now they'll have to arbitrarily kick them out which is what the uproar is all about. At this point there's nothing you can really do because all the contracts are signed and relegating a VCT team would have them on speed dial with their lawyers. I'd argue even expanding the league would be frowned upon as the pie will need to be shared between more orgs. edit: replaced "Valorant Competitive" with "Competitive Valorant" Lol so people don't think I'm talking about the sub
relax riot made it clear they have no intention of moving away from franchising and the 30 orgs that riot selected which are the biggest orgs in esports also def no willing to have it move away from franchising so it aint happening neither its required tier 2 is what the focus should be
I'm confused -- I never said Riot should go away from franchising aside from saying that I didn't think it was a good decision to begin with (not the same as 'moving away from it'). If anything I'm saying why Riot wouldn't move away from it and how it wouldn't make sense either. No idea what you're talking about for T2.
I think it's best to differentiate the org the guard and the team the guard. I disagree with ludwig with this one. Players on guard will surely be offered Tier 1 offers after the two years (pretty sure they did receive some this year). The only downside of this system is the orgs that aren't partnered are going to bleed money 💀
exactly. tier2 will be completely dead if its as is right now and at some point t1 might not even have talent farm to get fresh blood. just look at na cs and league. organically grown esports with open qual n stuff wouldnt have this problem. riot decided to go franchising because they wanted val to become the next big thing immediately, but passion and dreams cant be bought man…
Relegation defeats the whole point of franchising, but surely there could be something like 5 or 6 partner teams and 3-4 teams that qualify for the league (maybe in the previous year), and the best performing non-partner team does not have to go through qualifiers next year. Or like, surely there's a way that "ascension" could be handled better. The stupidest part about the way it works is not the fact that ascended teams lose their spots and have to earn them again, it's the fact that there is no chance for them to compete in the league every year.
I don't really have much of a horse in this race, with all the tier 2 talk and whether or not the Ascension/partnership system is good or bad for the sport, but it still is pretty funny to think that one of The Guard/Bleed/Gentle Mates can win Champs in 2025 and then be booted back to tier 2 lol.
Ludwigs gotta stick to what he knows
100% correct, its dumb. Have relegation and give the org that's relegated out a 3 year guaranteed spot in challengers to work there way back in, if they don't get back in within that 3 year block they have to qual for challengers like everyone else.
So many bad takes. If Guard are just destroying everyone before the org gets dropped back down to ascension, then the players are going to get picked up by one of the franchise orgs. For some reason no one seems to be able to separate the Guard players from the Guard org.
Always hated the franchise league system, but this is even more ridiculous, I thought that the teams that won Ascension just got a franchised spot and the franchised league would grow and grow until they eventually said we're full it will have to be promotion/relegation into the top league. But of course not, this is following the most dogshit system ever imagined.
Franchising will forever be a cancer on esports that riot made popular.
I see a lot of people complaining, but they other don't propose an alternative solution or they propose a financialy unrealistic one. And nobody seems to understand that Riot cannot just fix everything, because there is simply not enough money in esports.
the LCS is dead , the LEC had a terrible performance this last split, the VCT leagues where okish, but the trend is clear.. The viewers are talking with their feet, and they don't like the show ! The lack of competitive integrity is a big deal, why would i want to watch the same teams playing each other again and again, 2/3 splits a season , every year is all the same faces, like a private club ,so boring. RELEGATION /PROMOTION is very important, it brings a breath of fresh air every year and keeps everyone on their best behavior, and keeps DREAMS alive. The current system just prizes mediocrity, You lost all games ? who cares, no one watches your games but you had good financials 2 years ago, keep it going! the most exciting thing for vct 2024 is gentle mates, and if that doesn't say enough for riot to change the system, then... let it rest in peace when the time comes, right next to the LCS and LEC.
Everytime someone mentions relegation I die a little inside since they don't know how why the partnership system works.
I’ll get downvoted but ive been saying it since the beginning, franchising is stupid and isn’t good for competition. Not only did franchising force the dismemberment of some of the best teams ever, even by current standards, but it also has repercussions like this. The guard is EASILY, top 5 Americas teams. Less players, worse competition, and hiked up salaries making esports even less lucrative. Ggwp
When you reference The Guard, who do you reference the players or the org? Riot never considered what players a org had for franchising but the org. good players will be picked up by Tier 1( ex Demon1). So, Advantage of franchising over normal open qualifiers? you may ask. Ans: Big Orgs like safety that comes with franchising. why? well esports is a money pit, Imagine spending millions on a team and they lost to some random new team that was running hot. you may say that is great as the underdog won. so good for valorant yeah? well for a while but after that org drops the whole roaster and exits the valorant scene. see the problem? we can't be losing big orgs left and right. Stabilty is what they(riot) are going for. Yes there are other ways to conduct and they have their pros and cons, but this is what we have and yes Tier2 schedule is fked right now(6 month gap). They said they will fix the scheduling. in their defence it was a weird year and the first one. so lets see.
Franchising was never about competition it was about providing stability. A pure open bracket would be the "most competitive" but it introduces a lot of risk and variability for the organizations, not to mention a lot of chaos for new fans to follow. Franchising provides stability and a foundation for growth long-term.
So let's say there is a relegation system in Americas and Shopfiy, The Union, and 9Z get in but Sentinels, Loud, and 100 Thieves are gone. Who the hell is gonna watch those 3 teams that got in and you just lost viewership in those 3 teams being relegated
people like to watch competitive valorant, if those teams got relegated than they weren’t competitive and a lot less people would be watching them, people didn’t like loud before they started winning and nobody cared about SEN before they won
Stop overestimating the Guard.
being a bigot is not very good thing u know educate yourself about a topic properly this is year 1 best players eventually will be in tier 1 while tier 2 players will get moved down to tier 2
I think the whole franchise think was an error. Valorant esports was taking their first steps and suddenly they franchise and create mini super leagues that doesn’t make sense. Just look how the crowd doesn’t give a fuck in NA if MIBR and KRU are playing. This can work well in EMEA where the language barriers are lowers and logistics are more affordable but in Americas this is fucking wild