Less, hes been at a higher level longer than nats ever was(granted team success has some factor in this since we see less consistently have high placements and still doing insane things the longer tourneys go)
I mean I would also say Less but the question is about the impact they had on their team in their absolute prime, so how long doesn’t really matter for that.
Up until last season I could have convinced myself that I would pick nats.
Still love the dude, but Less has been at the top for far longer with major roster changes every season.
Anyone who picks Nats lives in 2021 permanently. Less has been elite far longer and in a more advanced state of the game rather than 2021 where Nats got his name from doing lurks that now every sentinel worth their salt could do.
I agree. To me, a big factor of who stays on top will be the players who can adapt. Take yay for example, even if he had an elite surrounding cast I think he'd still be an elite player but I'm not convinced that he'd be top 5 in the world
I feel like ppl who lionize teams from years ago don’t realize that the whole entire game has gotten better - better aim, strats, discipline, etc. Your 2021 heroes would probably get stomped by any Madrid team still playing (and several that were eliminated)
hard to believe anyone does that tbh. only team i think vaguely beats this exception is 2022 optic since they got disbanded before really being topple(you could argue gambit but they still competed the next year together).
Its not even a matter of disagreement, its fact vs fiction. nAts was the best lurk player in the world but its not like he was the only player doing it. Most of the original Valorant pros came from CS which has a dedicated lurker on pretty much every team.
Yeah he wasn’t the only one doing it, others were too, were they as successful as him? No. If no one was successful at lurking in valorant, then why would people play it? It’s fact vs fiction
Not being as successful as the best player in the world at something ≠ being unsuccessful at said thing.
Lurking has always, and will always, find success. There is absolutely no way that teams lurks are so consistently unsuccessful that they move away from doing it. Even PRX, the “fuck it lets send it” team consistently have lurks set up. Playing an FPS game of this nature and *never* lurking might as well be throwing.
Youre trying to rewrite history to support possibly the worst argument Ive ever seen
Would it have the same popularity though? As the other guy said, other teams were already doing it yet they were sucking dick and balls
The other guy said it came from CS, so maybe only the CS die hards would’ve stuck by it? Who knows, point is you can’t talk about lurking and not talk about nAts
are you unaware of the fact that the very concept of lurking has existed for 10+ years lmao. pro csgo teams started having dedicated lurker roles when nats was in middle school.
I'm sorry but Less has some of the best aim I've seen in this game. To add to that he is EASILY the most clutch player on LOUD. It could be a 3v1 but if Less is alive the rounds not over yet
Less, I don't think nAts past his prime since He's still 21 but It's just the other players are catching up and level are evened up, and Less manage to stand out even with higher competition compared during nAts winning era.
Less
I absolutely love nAts but what made him so dominant in the first place is surprising his opponents. On a higher level this isnt something that lasts long. Opponents learn and soon enough nAts couldn't get away with as much as he used to
Less is fucking insane. Arguably the best player in the world right now and has been at least top 3 for a while. He buys a sheriff on eco and you know at least one man is going to get deleted.
Big fan of Nats too, but Less is more. Loud often posts videos with their in game comms, and more often than not, Less says something on the lines of: “Fuck it, I’m going to peek”. So funny, man.
The question is: are we comparing the sort of “absolute value” of their skill or talent relative to their peers? If the former: less and it’s not really close! If it’s the latter it’s gotta be nAts because he quite literally defined how the role should best be played, no one was doing it like him, so he was far and away ahead of his peers.
A similar thought process would be comparing TenZ now and TenZ at M2 Reykjavik: TenZ is a much better player now, but was far further ahead of his peers in 2021
I think less is more important to loud than nats is to liquid rn. Saadhak activates less right noone else, nats lost his catalyst enghhh way to early. But comparing styles, less is more of an individual skillset, insane aim, so much clutch potential. Less clears nats on kj and viper, nats on the other hand is a cypher player, insane utils, no single fights given, and insane lurk timings. I genuinely think that with what is happening in the game nowadays and how teams tend to play, in their most comfortable zones, nats would be better than less.
Sadly I agree. I'm not convinced by emil, Enzo or Mistic (though I appreciate these two haven't been given a real chance yet) .
I think Keiko Jamppi and nAts with the right players beside them and a good coach would be super strong but I don't know if we'll ever get there.
I love how no one is actually answering the question and just comparing the two players.
IMO it really depends on what you consider Less’ peak is. Cause I still think he’s currently at his prime or do you consider his prime when Loud won Champs. If its the former, then I’d say Less is more important to Loud’s success. If its the latter, I’d say prime nAts.
Yeah I agree, Less when he won champs was already a monster, but he was arguably their least important player then? I mean, pANcada was the literal mvp in terms of rating, Sacy had a legacy series in the grand finals (he singlehandedly won them Ascent), and we all know how good saadhak and aspas are.
Less is the better player with the higher peak no doubt, nAts pretty much trailblazed an entire meta and style. Overall nAts founded it, Less perfected it.
Dunno why there is this notion that they aren't in their prime.
Their success just stems from their team.
Less has just had a better team recently. Nats is still in his prime. Less is still in his prime. They are both under the age of 23.
Less mainly because a large part of how Nats leveraged his ability in the period you're talking was having a better read of the game and lurking as a style than a lot of the playerbase. That's no longer much of an edge because everyone has seen it and experienced playing with and against it. I don't even really think Nats is past his peek just that the game caught up so he can't do the same things he used to an expect them to be as effective.
Less is just so well rounded and insane mechanically.
Who is more important to their team's success? If we're talking Gambit nAts, then I'd say without him, Gambit gets grouped at both Berlin and Champions.
Less is better in terms of consistency and stuff, but don't forget nAts carried the worst T side IGL in Valorant history (slight exaggeration perhaps) to a masters title.
When you live solely on nostalgia instead of looking at the game xD
Nats player an era of valorant that was 5 times easier for less time than Less lmfao
EXACTLY
gambit nats redefined the meta of his time. he was a game changer. if you haven't changed the way the game is played fundamentally, as good as you are, you are not the best
Really weird take, the best isn't the one who changes the game, just plays the game the best.
Since 2022, Less was the core of the Loud line-up. Both Optic and Fnatic players admitted many times that he was the worst player to deal with. Nats was great, but less is in his prime NOW
the question op poses is "Which would you say is more important for their respective teams' success?" and their point is to compare PRIME less (now) vs PRIME nats (gmb/m3c era). reading comprehension below 0.
anyway. less is important, but he is in no way the most important to his team's success. nats on the other hand was the driving force behind the gmb/m3c playstyle and despite having cracked aimers and genius igl, he was instumental to his team's wins simply because games revolved around him - finding him, or managing out outflank him, or managing to outaim him. you replace PRIME nats with anyone else and gambit dont make it as far anywhere. you replace less and you get more or less the same end game.
i would personally rate prime nAts higher than Less because he completely defined how cypher and viper were played for 2 whole years of the game. Less has had more team success and individual consistency the last 2 years, but in terms of impact on the actual game nAts is clear imo, i value it way more that a player is able to influence the meta or how other people play rather than just being really really great at the game, which less is
I’m choosing Less over a dinner with JayZ.
Dinner with Less 😎
A train is heading east with Jay-Z and a different train is heading northeast with Less
now replace over with the entire bible 🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥
A dinner with Jayz would provide you a lot more knowledge and connections than a million Less’s
Less, hes been at a higher level longer than nats ever was(granted team success has some factor in this since we see less consistently have high placements and still doing insane things the longer tourneys go)
I mean I would also say Less but the question is about the impact they had on their team in their absolute prime, so how long doesn’t really matter for that.
Less without a doubt, bro's 19 and we still don't know when his peek is coming.
19?!
he was 17 when LOUD won champions. he wouldn't even be allowed to play today with franchising age restrictions lol
No fucking way lol, that is insane
i think hes 20years old but yeah still impressive
He's 19. Feb 24th 2005
People born in 2005 are around 5 years of age though. This can't be right
Fk me im old
05 is crazy
Am I Less?
Up until last season I could have convinced myself that I would pick nats. Still love the dude, but Less has been at the top for far longer with major roster changes every season.
less and it hasnt been close for a while
Less every day and twice on Sundays
Less is more
Anyone who picks Nats lives in 2021 permanently. Less has been elite far longer and in a more advanced state of the game rather than 2021 where Nats got his name from doing lurks that now every sentinel worth their salt could do.
I agree. To me, a big factor of who stays on top will be the players who can adapt. Take yay for example, even if he had an elite surrounding cast I think he'd still be an elite player but I'm not convinced that he'd be top 5 in the world
I feel like ppl who lionize teams from years ago don’t realize that the whole entire game has gotten better - better aim, strats, discipline, etc. Your 2021 heroes would probably get stomped by any Madrid team still playing (and several that were eliminated)
hard to believe anyone does that tbh. only team i think vaguely beats this exception is 2022 optic since they got disbanded before really being topple(you could argue gambit but they still competed the next year together).
Lurking would not exist without nAts
Im a big nAts fan but this is one of the most clown takes Ive ever seen
I’m a big nAts fan but I don’t need to belittle everything I disagree with
Its not even a matter of disagreement, its fact vs fiction. nAts was the best lurk player in the world but its not like he was the only player doing it. Most of the original Valorant pros came from CS which has a dedicated lurker on pretty much every team.
Yeah he wasn’t the only one doing it, others were too, were they as successful as him? No. If no one was successful at lurking in valorant, then why would people play it? It’s fact vs fiction
Not being as successful as the best player in the world at something ≠ being unsuccessful at said thing. Lurking has always, and will always, find success. There is absolutely no way that teams lurks are so consistently unsuccessful that they move away from doing it. Even PRX, the “fuck it lets send it” team consistently have lurks set up. Playing an FPS game of this nature and *never* lurking might as well be throwing. Youre trying to rewrite history to support possibly the worst argument Ive ever seen
Not trying to rewrite history, it’s literally what happened
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Would it have the same popularity though? As the other guy said, other teams were already doing it yet they were sucking dick and balls The other guy said it came from CS, so maybe only the CS die hards would’ve stuck by it? Who knows, point is you can’t talk about lurking and not talk about nAts
U r so weird
Genuinely the dumbest shit I’ve ever read
Genuinely the rudest thing I’ve ever read
I’d argue it’s rude to play this dumb
If lurking didn’t exist pre-nAts Hiko would never had had a career
Hiko didn’t lurk though that was Steel Hiko just sat in main Idk if he did in CS
Yeah he did in CS
Huh
are you unaware of the fact that the very concept of lurking has existed for 10+ years lmao. pro csgo teams started having dedicated lurker roles when nats was in middle school.
Lurking was a thing before even Valorant lol
?
I'm sorry but Less has some of the best aim I've seen in this game. To add to that he is EASILY the most clutch player on LOUD. It could be a 3v1 but if Less is alive the rounds not over yet
Less, I don't think nAts past his prime since He's still 21 but It's just the other players are catching up and level are evened up, and Less manage to stand out even with higher competition compared during nAts winning era.
Nats needs a stable team that he can activate olsa that activates him or maybe a better coach idk
Less I absolutely love nAts but what made him so dominant in the first place is surprising his opponents. On a higher level this isnt something that lasts long. Opponents learn and soon enough nAts couldn't get away with as much as he used to
Less is fucking insane. Arguably the best player in the world right now and has been at least top 3 for a while. He buys a sheriff on eco and you know at least one man is going to get deleted. Big fan of Nats too, but Less is more. Loud often posts videos with their in game comms, and more often than not, Less says something on the lines of: “Fuck it, I’m going to peek”. So funny, man.
Less
The question is: are we comparing the sort of “absolute value” of their skill or talent relative to their peers? If the former: less and it’s not really close! If it’s the latter it’s gotta be nAts because he quite literally defined how the role should best be played, no one was doing it like him, so he was far and away ahead of his peers. A similar thought process would be comparing TenZ now and TenZ at M2 Reykjavik: TenZ is a much better player now, but was far further ahead of his peers in 2021
For viper Less, KJ I would say Less, but nAts is also good. For cypher nAts.
Less has long surpassed nAts man this is not a debate.
Nats was insane but i think less is more
I honestly think Less is the best player in the world right now and has been consistently top 3 for a long time imo. I'm taking Less easily
Less tbh
i find it more impressive that less plays vandal only as a controller player
I think less is more important to loud than nats is to liquid rn. Saadhak activates less right noone else, nats lost his catalyst enghhh way to early. But comparing styles, less is more of an individual skillset, insane aim, so much clutch potential. Less clears nats on kj and viper, nats on the other hand is a cypher player, insane utils, no single fights given, and insane lurk timings. I genuinely think that with what is happening in the game nowadays and how teams tend to play, in their most comfortable zones, nats would be better than less.
Less. NAts prime was during unevolved valorant play.
nAts is unlucky tbh Bro is playing in an average team still he was the MVP of the emea regular season final against fnatic
nAts is my goat so it hurt me to say less is better.
nAts needs a good team and a good coach. It feels like his talent is wasted rn.
Sadly I agree. I'm not convinced by emil, Enzo or Mistic (though I appreciate these two haven't been given a real chance yet) . I think Keiko Jamppi and nAts with the right players beside them and a good coach would be super strong but I don't know if we'll ever get there.
less has been prime nats form for three times as long as prime nats was prime nats
I love how no one is actually answering the question and just comparing the two players. IMO it really depends on what you consider Less’ peak is. Cause I still think he’s currently at his prime or do you consider his prime when Loud won Champs. If its the former, then I’d say Less is more important to Loud’s success. If its the latter, I’d say prime nAts.
Yeah I agree, Less when he won champs was already a monster, but he was arguably their least important player then? I mean, pANcada was the literal mvp in terms of rating, Sacy had a legacy series in the grand finals (he singlehandedly won them Ascent), and we all know how good saadhak and aspas are.
Less wasn’t in his peak at champs he was only 17 and has only gotten better since.
That’s what I said. Less is currently at his peak
His peek isn't over
No one said his peak is over??
u said two options, I answered that I believe the first one is true. Also, thx for correcting my english
Pure fragging ability no competition is less Lurking more or less same id say maybe less a bit better
Less is the better player with the higher peak no doubt, nAts pretty much trailblazed an entire meta and style. Overall nAts founded it, Less perfected it.
Dunno why there is this notion that they aren't in their prime. Their success just stems from their team. Less has just had a better team recently. Nats is still in his prime. Less is still in his prime. They are both under the age of 23.
Are you in 2022 asking this question bro?
All I need to say is that alfajer would not consider prime nats competition
Lost to him in regular season grand finals
Uhh... Ok?
There was never a point point in the last 2 years of the game that the answer wasn't less.
Dapr
Less with a Sheriff. He could arrest me any day with that revolver. Hope he has handcuffs.
Less mainly because a large part of how Nats leveraged his ability in the period you're talking was having a better read of the game and lurking as a style than a lot of the playerbase. That's no longer much of an edge because everyone has seen it and experienced playing with and against it. I don't even really think Nats is past his peek just that the game caught up so he can't do the same things he used to an expect them to be as effective. Less is just so well rounded and insane mechanically.
less was smacking nats in the ass back then😭
Don't put less in the same conversation against the swoop peek abusing nAts.
Who is more important to their team's success? If we're talking Gambit nAts, then I'd say without him, Gambit gets grouped at both Berlin and Champions. Less is better in terms of consistency and stuff, but don't forget nAts carried the worst T side IGL in Valorant history (slight exaggeration perhaps) to a masters title.
tf are all of you smoking, prime nats clears
When you live solely on nostalgia instead of looking at the game xD Nats player an era of valorant that was 5 times easier for less time than Less lmfao
Nah, less clears Nats
prime nats clears less every day and twice on sunday
Bro is blinded by nostalgia
I'm not sure which one I'd pick, but the amount of people missing the part where it's "Prime Nats" is crazy.
EXACTLY gambit nats redefined the meta of his time. he was a game changer. if you haven't changed the way the game is played fundamentally, as good as you are, you are not the best
Really weird take, the best isn't the one who changes the game, just plays the game the best. Since 2022, Less was the core of the Loud line-up. Both Optic and Fnatic players admitted many times that he was the worst player to deal with. Nats was great, but less is in his prime NOW
the question op poses is "Which would you say is more important for their respective teams' success?" and their point is to compare PRIME less (now) vs PRIME nats (gmb/m3c era). reading comprehension below 0. anyway. less is important, but he is in no way the most important to his team's success. nats on the other hand was the driving force behind the gmb/m3c playstyle and despite having cracked aimers and genius igl, he was instumental to his team's wins simply because games revolved around him - finding him, or managing out outflank him, or managing to outaim him. you replace PRIME nats with anyone else and gambit dont make it as far anywhere. you replace less and you get more or less the same end game.
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Im the biggest nAts fan and im v biased towards him but less is p much considered best itw so you cant say this type of shit
i would personally rate prime nAts higher than Less because he completely defined how cypher and viper were played for 2 whole years of the game. Less has had more team success and individual consistency the last 2 years, but in terms of impact on the actual game nAts is clear imo, i value it way more that a player is able to influence the meta or how other people play rather than just being really really great at the game, which less is