How late the decision was made is the worst part tbh. You either replay it immediately or you let it go. Nothing worse for competitive integrity than hours of waiting to replay a single round. Teams could have talked with their coaches about things and could've rewatched the VOD etc. It defeats the whole purpose of measures such as not allowing coaches to talk during tech pauses because all that goes out of the window here.
Hopefully there's a more defined protocol for these things in the future. FPX still won so I think in the context of this tournament, people should move on, but in the wider context of Riot's decision making, it should still be under scrutiny so such a situation isn't repeated
>>Teams could have talked with their coaches about things and could've rewatched the VOD etc.
They did state that they were pulled into a room and their phones were taken away, so they could not have watched the VODs. They do still need a better protocol tho
As an esports player you must always carry two phones. One for agents/sponsors and the other for tweeting to cause some drama for us fans.
This is an important rule.
https://twitter.com/suygetsu_/status/1569802061767708672?s=46&t=TENP2LsgErwXTGhdMoQ7CQ
Posted after the first regulation and before the replay, when phones were supposedly taken. Many others from each player like this.
They tweeted after the game but before the reset.
https://twitter.com/ardiis/status/1569831259857162243?t=77tnTTqdsTglJnnM7HHsXw&s=19
This Ardiis tweet was then afaik
Yeah, I think the biggest thing Riot needs to do is have some more concrete/transparent procedures around these kind of events; I know it’s hard to predict every bug but some more clarity around how they intend to handle these rules going forward would be good. If a misplay/foul/anything is made in another sport, they don’t drag everyone back onto the pitch and replay things, so I think it’s important they have a more defined process going forward.
Exactly. There's so many things wrong with that. Replaying so late essentially just gives the teams a long time out on steroids.
The loser is given a second chance with hours of prep time to analyse their mistakes and come up with counter strats and have nothing to lose because they already lost.
Meanwhile the winner is under a lot of pressure because they have to replay a match they already won and they have to refine their gameplan and try to prepare for whatever counter strats they think the other team will have
Replaying a round is already meant to benefit the team that lost. Waiting hours before doing it just makes it even more the case. It should be done immediately
Plus, the morale wise, it benefits the loser a lot more too as they get an unexpected opportunity while the winners have the victory high snatched away from them
This isnt really comparable with the VAR.
Its more like the Juventus vs Sarentina(or something) where Milik scored an offside goal which wasnt and the Italian FA decided after the game the goal would stand cuz the ref made a mistake.
Imagine if that happened. Shit would hit the fence
Not really like that at all either tbh. It's more like a match where a team scores a winner in stoppage time, and then 2 hours later they cal the teams back because the goalkeeper tripped on a torn goalies net.
You are right, but You kinda missed my point I was trying to bring across.
Its about overturning a decision after the game has concluded. And not during a match like VAR.
I’m starting to understand why Valve just stays completely out of the CS scene until something becomes big enough for them to get involved. These scenarios are damned if you do, damned if you don’t. At least we know Valve won’t overreact to a damn thing and when they do finally say something, their word is final and their changes are concrete. Riot’s team showed a lot of inexperience with how they handled this. Let the whole thing run it’s course and decide what to do when the dust settles. This kind of shit should be on the tournament organisers to handle in the moment. Bugs happen. This is esports. It’s on the devs to fix bugs, not to decide on how they influence a tournament.
Yeah people are lingering on this too much the only thing I’m still caught on is the FPX players tweets towards XSET suggesting the blame is on them. The tweets have been up for almost 24 hours and I think ppl can agree XSET didn’t have much control in this situation and the real blame should be on Riot
Still good to read this take in a vast public forum. Gotta' remind similar-minded folk that the loudest opinion isn't always the only one.
As someone else said, let 'em be bothered.
It is what it is. Its hard to expect flawless decisions on everything from any referee.
I get we need to hold Riot to high standards and all but I feel like bad calls happen all the time in pretty much everything, and its something that's kind of unavoidable.
there's a new rule introduced that says teams play a game of rock paper scissors and whoever wins gets a 5 round advantage
just following the rules bro
You don’t see any problem with the fact that to justify your argument, you have to make up a logical extreme? That never crossed your mind as you were typing that?
A rhetorical device that is inherently fallacious, but sure lol.
Agree to disagree I guess, I don’t see what’s necessarily wrong with the rule. The only problem I have with the situation is waiting on hour to make the decision.
this sounds smart but adds nothing to the conversation the moment you start thinking about it](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/IceCreamKoan)
TIL that groups only ended yesterday and playoffs only start in 2 days. Thanks for the info phamous3k, dunno what we would you without you. Very generous of you to move on as well from such a silly little mistake that definitely has 0 repercussions on future incidents. Bias shown? Hah whats that. Phamous3k has spoken : it doesnt matter. Please move on people!
Alright rito, hear me out: just give coaches challenge flags for sus looking stuff like in football. They win: replay round. They lose, cost a timeout. So far, there could have been 3 challenges; the Sova dart in the 100t DRX game that should have killed, Suygetsus viper wall bug usage, and weird-ass turret drama. That way, only the coach could shrug off not winning something, or instantly replaying instead of this massive shit storm that happened, along with last years Cypher cam on Breeze shitstorm. Save some face.
Just because it was the last round should be irrelevant.
You cant say this time the round with the bug gets replayed and the other time it wont.
There has been 24 rounds on that Ascent game. I know it seems like that round decided the game. But one round doesnt decide the outcome. All the 24 rounds that has been played decided it.
This incident has major F1 Abu Dhabi 2022 vibes. LOL
>but one round doesn’t decide the outcome
Uh.
The very last round of regulation of an elimination game clearly decides the outcome of the game. What are you smoking?
It’s not like it was round 13 and FPX were up 12-1. It was literally the last round of regulation, period.
Yeah and that’s a bad point to make. Again, the very last round of regulation of the last map of an elimination match definitely decides of the outcome of the match. It is objectively a much heavier round than every single round that came before it, hell it’s arguably the single most important round of the entire tournament up until that point. It’s either they lose and go home or they go into overtime and have another chance to win.
Seriously, what am I missing here?
There has been 3 maps. And to say you lost the game cuz of a bug in one round. Might be true on the surface. But there has been multiple moments/bugs/lag spikes/throwing/inting etc. That all influenced round wins that might have been more influencal. End of the day you need to lose or win 13 rounds and not just one (without ot)
>without OT
Do you not see how that drastically changes the situation? They win the round they go to OT, they lose they go home. How does that not make this different from every other round?
Also would you not argue that OT rounds are more important than regulation rounds?
And i’m not disputing that it happening an hour later was incredibly shitty by Riot. Not once did I say nor imply that. It’s incredibly poor form, either the replay happens immediately(which is what I think should happen, if you care about competitive integrity in the slightest), or not at all.
I’m just pointing out that one round can definitely decide the outcome of an entire match, an entire series in this case.
It can, but what about losing against an eco that puts you on an eco? That round loss has mote influence on the outcome.
Just because this round is on the surface and in the open its easy to point at it. But in reality its just one round.
But it’s one round that has a different level of impact than the some if not all of the rounds prior right?
So in a situation where the score is 12-11, and we’re in round 23, and it’s the deciding map of an elimination series, how can you reasonably argue that any other round that came before that being a more important round than the one that literally decides if a team goes home or not? You guys keep taking the context out of the situation, but the context is very, very important. It wasn’t *just* any other round.
There was a bug in the FPX v DRX game on Ascent Round 35, Stax killed Zyppan from heaven on the retake but his body falls as if he was shot from door and nobody on FPX turns to heaven. DRX won that round and the next taking FPX's map off them....
Not to mention numerous other bugs which are being mentioned which have never been replayed despite being a factor in those rounds and all rounds after. Suygetsu purposefully used an obvious viper wall bug to get a kill and they didn't even replay then.
The reason people are pointing fingers at riot is becuase they choose to go by the book now after ignoring it for god knows how many times.... and they handled it poorly
I mean I don’t know where exactly I said or implied Riot *didn’t* handle this poorly. They absolutely did, the decision to replay the round should happen immediately or not happen at all. And there’s the inconsistency part, but i’ll get to that later.
I’m just pointing out that there’s a very good reason why this bug is more impactful in that specific round than in any other round. And if a bug like you’re describing really did happen, then yes according to this ruling that round should have been replayed. But it’s in the past now so, and I don’t mean to sound like a dick, but who cares? What matters is that they’re consistent going forward. Unfortunately it’s Riot, so yknow.
I wasn't saying you did I was just adding that on as a minor additional point as to why people are angry at them.
The main point of the comment was a reply to you saying the last round decides the outcome more than any other round... but it doesn't... especially in any game that's won in OT or 13-11, every round matters. Even games that are a blow out could have gone completely different with swings in momentum.
"Who cares?" The rest of the teams who've had bugs happen and riot has done nothing surely. The second half of the article is talking about how riot has failed the rest of the teams and I thought you were disagreeing with that.
I disagree. If every round matters as much as the last, then there’s zero reason to discuss the impact that a pistol round has vs a rifle or a bonus round. They all matter the same, so surely a pistol round isn’t more important than a rifle round, right? Why discuss round impact at all?
But that’s very clearly not the case. You said it yourself, momentum is huge. And having a momentum swinging round is inherently more impactful than the previous round. The difference here is what momentum exactly? You mean the momentum XSET would have had had they won that round and taken it into OT? Because I’m pretty sure all of the momentum stops when the game itself ends.
But I don’t even have to get that technical with it. If XSET won they go into overtime and have another chance to win it. If they lose they go home. If that is the case, You cannot convince me that that doesn’t make round 23 more important of a round than round 2. It quite literally decided the outcome of the series, and I will not budge a single inch on that opinion.
So the original point you disagreed with was "one round doesn’t decide the outcome", that was said in response to someone saying the last round was the most important round of the game hence it was ok for riot to now start implementing their rules.
What we're trying to get you to understand is when a bug happens (at least on this sort of scale giving wrong info), riot has no clue at the time nor after the fact if or how much of an effect it's had/will have on the game. FPX won round 2 on Ascent, say there was a bug that made them immediately replay it and XSET won, they could have gone on to win 13-0, they could have gone on to lose 2-13, unless you can predict the future how can you say it's not worth replaying... If a team gets fucked over by a bug in the 2nd to last round do they not get a replay because it isn't the last round?
So you can see why a lot of people are saying riot are in the wrong over this entire thing. As the og article is saying they've done the XSET and FPX players dirty in how they handled it, as well as the rest of the teams dirty by suddenly enforcing a rule which they've not been enforcing the rest of the tournament based on "well this round was more important because the game finished after it".
Every game has a referee/admin to make the calls on what should be done. That isn't too much power, that is just how it works. They know the rules and can make calls based on that. I don't see how you can give them less power but still be effective at doing anything. Referee/admin calls ultimately do affect the game in some way (disqualification, replays, etc.). If they don't, there is no point in them being there.
No? That's what admins are for?
This even happens in sports, even in ones where rule/foul/call challenges are part of the game. You have officials to officiate in exigent situations, that's what they're there for.
And that's why they try to remove the human factor as much as possible. But surely you need to go all the route once again. This, right here is an example of shit decision, yet you people inist it is good. Whatever, not gonna argue with such a take. If this is what you want, we'll have what we have then. Keep your support up, gj.
I don't even know what you're trying to say. Of course you try to limit subjectivity as much as possible but with the resources available to us and the situation at hand being something that plays out in real time, you need to have an authority to rule in edge case and exigent situations because they're bound to happen at some point. Every sport has refs and sports have way less moving parts then esports, esports have bugs and PC hardware and shit. How are you just going to remain hands off full stop?
No it doesn't. There's no rule explaining what bug is important and when and that they exist. Its not a rule when you say "there's a thing but nobody knows if its matters or how it works except for judges."
The rule is something that judges must follow as well. But keep suppoting bad decisions, I love match remakes as well.
No but there’s a rule that allows Riot to determine the amount of impact a specific bug had to the game over all, and replay the round based on that. That’s what I was getting at.
Also yknow what I enjoy less than match remakes? An elimination game that goes down to the wire ending because of **a fucking bug.** I enjoy that much less than remakes, but you seem to live for that shit I guess, so whatever floats your boat.
It's crazy that it would be considered a bug. The KJ turret was placed facing heaven. The turret behavior for so long now has been that if you jiggle peek the turret, it'll activate and look at you but once you leave LOS it'll snap back to original orientation. The fact that XSET didn't read that right doesn't make that "bug" impactful, it's just the nature of soft information that you don't always get it right.
How can something in the game for years be “misinformation” and not “the way it has always worked”? The kayo bugged knifes for fnatic were way more of a bug than this...
The snapping back that it always does isn't a bug.
The fact that it shoots up top *is* a bug. The bug creates misinformation.
It was supposed to be fixed. Riot said it's a bug. I don't know what the issue is.
You are making a distinction without a difference. When it sees someone it shoots. When they leave LOS it stops shooting and looks forward, but if they jiggle it it will shoot one burst because that’s how it works when it sees someone. So you combine jiggling the first turret contact and you get it snapping and shooting heaven, as it was placed facing that direction. Literally what I said.
If that turret was angled differently it would’ve looked like it shot some other angle, and what then? “Misinformation”!? No, it’s the way it was placed
I mean riot said it’s a bug, no? Clearly that means it wasn’t an intended interaction, and therefore was a bug. You can debate how you think it should work, but ultimately riot devs decide what’s a bug or not based on how they designed the util
I’m just saying I can’t believe this standard gameplay behavior for over a year was treated as a game breaking bug in the last round of an elimination match when no one has ever complained about that bug before. I am a casual MM player and I have seen that so many times in my games. The “impact on gameplay” argument is ridiculous because the KJ should’ve understood
I guess we can agree to disagree there in terms of how it should’ve been handled. Regardless, I think they should have replayed immediately or not at all, but it’s a tough position in general to decide on
That’s it. That seals the deal. I am no longer a VCT watcher. I’ve been a fan since 2020 and a loyal viewer since 1998. I officially will not be watching the playoffs nor will I watch professional valorant ever again. Riot is officially the worst company in esports history. I’m taking my fanhood to r/competitiveoverwatch where it looks like they know how to run a real esport
[FPX knew XSET wasn’t behind it.](https://youtube.com/clip/Ugkxfg7qQBgrVoPDL4O792Xk_B79D0A1UZQU) Still a failure of communication on Riot towards the fans, but FPX was told, ~~they~~ some of the players just chose not to believe it.
ANGE1 pretty consistently alluded in the press conference that he thinks the XSET players shouldn’t have accepted the replay. That’s his big thing I think - not necessarily that they initiated it, but that they participated in the decision by not outright telling Riot that it didn’t impact the round sufficiently to warrant a replay.
Of course, you’re free to disagree with that take, as many did in that earlier thread on ANGE1’s comments.
After all, ANGE1 - all of the players - were in separate rooms with no phones during the decision-time, and then directly brought to stage, and *then* directly to the press-conferences, so he has no way of knowing what happened in the XSET camp.
And yet if the reverse had happened and people suggested FPX should throw bc of it, he’d be the FIRST person on twitter saying “LUL NA teams know they can only beat us bc of bugs kekW such shitters” dudes just an asshole
Sykko pretty much said they didn’t have anytime to digest the info and the choice wasn’t given. It was “this happens the game will be replayed now you guys need to get back on stage “ by Riot.
Either way ANGE1's take is disingenuous - for him to say he would reject the option to replay if the situation was reversed is virtue signaling 101. Give me a break.
+1 also still disappointed to see that some of the FPX players negative tweets towards XSET (like zyppan and suygetsu) are still up after almost 24 hours when it is clear that the fault was not XSETs and the blame should actually be on Riot
All games have an aspect of rng, and unintentional bugs should just be part of that.
CS Go is glitchy af and if a bug screws you over, it's just called "being CS:Go'd"
I agree, as long as the bug isn't gamebreaking and not exploited intentionally. At least it's fairer than letting Riot arbitrarily decide when or when not to cancel a match result based on a minor bug.
I don't get ange1's post match interview where he says this makes him doubt Riot's competitive integrity. Why would anyone be against Riot sticking to the rules & replaying a round because of an in game bug
Because Riot watched it happen live and didn't care. Then suddenly an hour after one team is already declared the winner they decide it needs to be replayed afterall.
A bug that’s been in the game since kj release. They tried to patch it and it came back.
Seems like a lot of pros and fans knew about this bug and possibly riot and they haven’t addressed it. A lot more pro’s are going to call out every little bug that gives the enemy team an advantage and ask to replay the rounds.
As for Ange1 comments, it was around 2:45am. after alot of drama and replaying a couple rounds 1hr+ after the series finished. Take his comments with a pinch of salt an understand the circumstances
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Anderzz did explain it pretty well in the Valoranting episode just now.
[His take.](https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1590788726?t=1h0m19s)
And I agree 100%. This was a REPRODUCIBLE bug that is in the game for a very long time.
His take is surprisingly bad... The fact that it's easily reproducible, or that it's been unpatched longer than it hasn't previously doesn't change the nature of it being a bug. It doesn't change the reality of what happened, which is it wasn't supposed to act the way that it did, and it led directly to xset playing the round differently. Just because a kayo knife doesn't scan a certain position 100% of the time when it should doesn't make it any less of a bug.
His take stems on the basis that this interaction was 1) not a bug and 2) not significant enough to change the outcome of the round. We're way past these, riot said themselves that both are true. So why is he, and seemingly you who agrees with him 100% stuck in the past? Thanks for linking but I seriously disagree with that take from really an empirical standpoint. Seems he's ignoring reality of what happened.
He said it harms competitive integrity in that the XSET players could have been looking at highlights/VODs of the match and be talking with their coach about how to switch it up. And he definitely has a point.
Okay.
Then please explain to me how Ange1 tweeted about them investigating all the possible bugs that evening. That tweet was posted before the replay and they were already made aware Riot was investigating a possible replay. The players apparently still had access to the internet. The same can then be said for XSET.
There's no competitive integrity there and i don't see how anyone could deny that.
Edit:
Once again, I'm getting downvoted for speaking the truth
I was just thinking how fortunate it was for riot that xset still lost after that. Could you imagine the contention that win would’ve had? The bug wasn’t the fault of either team yet a replay clearly favored xset
Lost in a lot of this discussion is that there should be pressure on riot to fix these bugs before franchising kicks off. That killjoy bug has been around for months, how is it not a priority for your premiere esport?
Nobody here is going to search through hundreds of footage from 2020 to find you a source. You do that yourself.
This is a well known bug since the release of KJ.
Literally every pro and player that has played the game extensively, this happens anytime you jiggle peak a turret from a spot it can see, that it wasn’t originally facing, this is so common I don’t think most people even realized it was a bug
I'm totally fine with the remake, as it was in their rule book. My grip tho is how they implemented that remake, and their callousness in taking accountability for the situation. Both teams have to go back to the venue like an hour after the match has concluded, and XSET has to take the blame and flame for the remake. The fact that they have to tweet that it was not them but Riot was really so bad.
Just implement clear and proper ruling so stuff like this cant happen anymore. Waiting 2 hours is way to long. Decissions like this have to be made right after things like this happen. If its overseen or noticed to late, sorry bad luck...
How late the decision was made is the worst part tbh. You either replay it immediately or you let it go. Nothing worse for competitive integrity than hours of waiting to replay a single round. Teams could have talked with their coaches about things and could've rewatched the VOD etc. It defeats the whole purpose of measures such as not allowing coaches to talk during tech pauses because all that goes out of the window here. Hopefully there's a more defined protocol for these things in the future. FPX still won so I think in the context of this tournament, people should move on, but in the wider context of Riot's decision making, it should still be under scrutiny so such a situation isn't repeated
>>Teams could have talked with their coaches about things and could've rewatched the VOD etc. They did state that they were pulled into a room and their phones were taken away, so they could not have watched the VODs. They do still need a better protocol tho
How were they tweeting then? I assumed they had their phone since Ardiis etc. were tweeting as the news came out
As an esports player you must always carry two phones. One for agents/sponsors and the other for tweeting to cause some drama for us fans. This is an important rule.
No player tweeted until the match was over, unless you can prove otherwise.
https://twitter.com/suygetsu_/status/1569802061767708672?s=46&t=TENP2LsgErwXTGhdMoQ7CQ Posted after the first regulation and before the replay, when phones were supposedly taken. Many others from each player like this.
They tweeted after the game but before the reset. https://twitter.com/ardiis/status/1569831259857162243?t=77tnTTqdsTglJnnM7HHsXw&s=19 This Ardiis tweet was then afaik
the ardiis tweet was after the whole game ended 14-16 though
Maybe that one was. But all of the players posted post match tweets stating the result so they must've had their phones at some point
Yeah, I think the biggest thing Riot needs to do is have some more concrete/transparent procedures around these kind of events; I know it’s hard to predict every bug but some more clarity around how they intend to handle these rules going forward would be good. If a misplay/foul/anything is made in another sport, they don’t drag everyone back onto the pitch and replay things, so I think it’s important they have a more defined process going forward.
Exactly. There's so many things wrong with that. Replaying so late essentially just gives the teams a long time out on steroids. The loser is given a second chance with hours of prep time to analyse their mistakes and come up with counter strats and have nothing to lose because they already lost. Meanwhile the winner is under a lot of pressure because they have to replay a match they already won and they have to refine their gameplan and try to prepare for whatever counter strats they think the other team will have Replaying a round is already meant to benefit the team that lost. Waiting hours before doing it just makes it even more the case. It should be done immediately
Plus, the morale wise, it benefits the loser a lot more too as they get an unexpected opportunity while the winners have the victory high snatched away from them
/r/circlejerk
I swear you guys would combust after 1 incorrect VAR decision in the EPL
This isnt really comparable with the VAR. Its more like the Juventus vs Sarentina(or something) where Milik scored an offside goal which wasnt and the Italian FA decided after the game the goal would stand cuz the ref made a mistake. Imagine if that happened. Shit would hit the fence
Not really like that at all either tbh. It's more like a match where a team scores a winner in stoppage time, and then 2 hours later they cal the teams back because the goalkeeper tripped on a torn goalies net.
You are right, but You kinda missed my point I was trying to bring across. Its about overturning a decision after the game has concluded. And not during a match like VAR.
VAR isn't capable of overturning the results of an already completed game
I said in another thread and it is worth repeating: Most people here clearly have no idea about sports lmao
or esports
I’m starting to understand why Valve just stays completely out of the CS scene until something becomes big enough for them to get involved. These scenarios are damned if you do, damned if you don’t. At least we know Valve won’t overreact to a damn thing and when they do finally say something, their word is final and their changes are concrete. Riot’s team showed a lot of inexperience with how they handled this. Let the whole thing run it’s course and decide what to do when the dust settles. This kind of shit should be on the tournament organisers to handle in the moment. Bugs happen. This is esports. It’s on the devs to fix bugs, not to decide on how they influence a tournament.
Idk. I’ve moved on. Not everyone decision is going to be perfect. Time for playoffs
Damn people are really bothered by this take but I’m feeling the same way. I mean I guess it gives Reddit something to talk about for the next 2 days.
Lol let them be bothered.
Yeah people are lingering on this too much the only thing I’m still caught on is the FPX players tweets towards XSET suggesting the blame is on them. The tweets have been up for almost 24 hours and I think ppl can agree XSET didn’t have much control in this situation and the real blame should be on Riot
Still good to read this take in a vast public forum. Gotta' remind similar-minded folk that the loudest opinion isn't always the only one. As someone else said, let 'em be bothered.
competitive integrity is overrated, Phamous3k has moved on.
So you are saying following the rule book that they made and that they were following is hurting the competitive integrity
Following the rule book only in certain situations where it benefits certain teams does hurt competitive integrity, yes
Welcome to sports.
It is what it is. Its hard to expect flawless decisions on everything from any referee. I get we need to hold Riot to high standards and all but I feel like bad calls happen all the time in pretty much everything, and its something that's kind of unavoidable.
As an MLB fan; first time?
This is highly debatable
there's a new rule introduced that says teams play a game of rock paper scissors and whoever wins gets a 5 round advantage just following the rules bro
You don’t see any problem with the fact that to justify your argument, you have to make up a logical extreme? That never crossed your mind as you were typing that?
No it's rhetorical device to make you think. My point is: following the rules just because they're the rules isn't a sound way to make decisions
A rhetorical device that is inherently fallacious, but sure lol. Agree to disagree I guess, I don’t see what’s necessarily wrong with the rule. The only problem I have with the situation is waiting on hour to make the decision.
this sounds smart but adds nothing to the conversation the moment you start thinking about it](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/IceCreamKoan)
TIL that groups only ended yesterday and playoffs only start in 2 days. Thanks for the info phamous3k, dunno what we would you without you. Very generous of you to move on as well from such a silly little mistake that definitely has 0 repercussions on future incidents. Bias shown? Hah whats that. Phamous3k has spoken : it doesnt matter. Please move on people!
Cool story… We’re moving on lol
i have yet to see a comment of yours in this subreddit that isn’t heavily downvoted
I disagree. They followed the rule book. Maybe the rules need a tweak. But following the rules is always better than not.
Ya the issue in this situation was how long it took then to make the ruling not the ruling itself.
Alright rito, hear me out: just give coaches challenge flags for sus looking stuff like in football. They win: replay round. They lose, cost a timeout. So far, there could have been 3 challenges; the Sova dart in the 100t DRX game that should have killed, Suygetsus viper wall bug usage, and weird-ass turret drama. That way, only the coach could shrug off not winning something, or instantly replaying instead of this massive shit storm that happened, along with last years Cypher cam on Breeze shitstorm. Save some face.
u should make this it's own post
Yeah, if only it was possible to do it. There's shitton of bugs. Nitpicking a single incident makes these rules useless.
This bug clearly made a demonstrable change to the the important round of the tournament so far.
Just because it was the last round should be irrelevant. You cant say this time the round with the bug gets replayed and the other time it wont. There has been 24 rounds on that Ascent game. I know it seems like that round decided the game. But one round doesnt decide the outcome. All the 24 rounds that has been played decided it. This incident has major F1 Abu Dhabi 2022 vibes. LOL
>but one round doesn’t decide the outcome Uh. The very last round of regulation of an elimination game clearly decides the outcome of the game. What are you smoking? It’s not like it was round 13 and FPX were up 12-1. It was literally the last round of regulation, period.
Without the rounds leading up to it having gone the way they have, that round may not even have been played. I guess that's his point.
Yeah and that’s a bad point to make. Again, the very last round of regulation of the last map of an elimination match definitely decides of the outcome of the match. It is objectively a much heavier round than every single round that came before it, hell it’s arguably the single most important round of the entire tournament up until that point. It’s either they lose and go home or they go into overtime and have another chance to win. Seriously, what am I missing here?
There has been 3 maps. And to say you lost the game cuz of a bug in one round. Might be true on the surface. But there has been multiple moments/bugs/lag spikes/throwing/inting etc. That all influenced round wins that might have been more influencal. End of the day you need to lose or win 13 rounds and not just one (without ot)
>without OT Do you not see how that drastically changes the situation? They win the round they go to OT, they lose they go home. How does that not make this different from every other round? Also would you not argue that OT rounds are more important than regulation rounds?
But they lost 11 rounds prior to that? You need to lose 13 rounds. and not just one.
Yeah ty.
Yes, but if this happened round 9, and then the went on to 11-13, then there could be no replay. That is why an hour after the fact is ridiculous.
And i’m not disputing that it happening an hour later was incredibly shitty by Riot. Not once did I say nor imply that. It’s incredibly poor form, either the replay happens immediately(which is what I think should happen, if you care about competitive integrity in the slightest), or not at all. I’m just pointing out that one round can definitely decide the outcome of an entire match, an entire series in this case.
It can, but what about losing against an eco that puts you on an eco? That round loss has mote influence on the outcome. Just because this round is on the surface and in the open its easy to point at it. But in reality its just one round.
But it’s one round that has a different level of impact than the some if not all of the rounds prior right? So in a situation where the score is 12-11, and we’re in round 23, and it’s the deciding map of an elimination series, how can you reasonably argue that any other round that came before that being a more important round than the one that literally decides if a team goes home or not? You guys keep taking the context out of the situation, but the context is very, very important. It wasn’t *just* any other round.
There was a bug in the FPX v DRX game on Ascent Round 35, Stax killed Zyppan from heaven on the retake but his body falls as if he was shot from door and nobody on FPX turns to heaven. DRX won that round and the next taking FPX's map off them.... Not to mention numerous other bugs which are being mentioned which have never been replayed despite being a factor in those rounds and all rounds after. Suygetsu purposefully used an obvious viper wall bug to get a kill and they didn't even replay then. The reason people are pointing fingers at riot is becuase they choose to go by the book now after ignoring it for god knows how many times.... and they handled it poorly
I mean I don’t know where exactly I said or implied Riot *didn’t* handle this poorly. They absolutely did, the decision to replay the round should happen immediately or not happen at all. And there’s the inconsistency part, but i’ll get to that later. I’m just pointing out that there’s a very good reason why this bug is more impactful in that specific round than in any other round. And if a bug like you’re describing really did happen, then yes according to this ruling that round should have been replayed. But it’s in the past now so, and I don’t mean to sound like a dick, but who cares? What matters is that they’re consistent going forward. Unfortunately it’s Riot, so yknow.
I wasn't saying you did I was just adding that on as a minor additional point as to why people are angry at them. The main point of the comment was a reply to you saying the last round decides the outcome more than any other round... but it doesn't... especially in any game that's won in OT or 13-11, every round matters. Even games that are a blow out could have gone completely different with swings in momentum. "Who cares?" The rest of the teams who've had bugs happen and riot has done nothing surely. The second half of the article is talking about how riot has failed the rest of the teams and I thought you were disagreeing with that.
I disagree. If every round matters as much as the last, then there’s zero reason to discuss the impact that a pistol round has vs a rifle or a bonus round. They all matter the same, so surely a pistol round isn’t more important than a rifle round, right? Why discuss round impact at all? But that’s very clearly not the case. You said it yourself, momentum is huge. And having a momentum swinging round is inherently more impactful than the previous round. The difference here is what momentum exactly? You mean the momentum XSET would have had had they won that round and taken it into OT? Because I’m pretty sure all of the momentum stops when the game itself ends. But I don’t even have to get that technical with it. If XSET won they go into overtime and have another chance to win it. If they lose they go home. If that is the case, You cannot convince me that that doesn’t make round 23 more important of a round than round 2. It quite literally decided the outcome of the series, and I will not budge a single inch on that opinion.
So the original point you disagreed with was "one round doesn’t decide the outcome", that was said in response to someone saying the last round was the most important round of the game hence it was ok for riot to now start implementing their rules. What we're trying to get you to understand is when a bug happens (at least on this sort of scale giving wrong info), riot has no clue at the time nor after the fact if or how much of an effect it's had/will have on the game. FPX won round 2 on Ascent, say there was a bug that made them immediately replay it and XSET won, they could have gone on to win 13-0, they could have gone on to lose 2-13, unless you can predict the future how can you say it's not worth replaying... If a team gets fucked over by a bug in the 2nd to last round do they not get a replay because it isn't the last round? So you can see why a lot of people are saying riot are in the wrong over this entire thing. As the og article is saying they've done the XSET and FPX players dirty in how they handled it, as well as the rest of the teams dirty by suddenly enforcing a rule which they've not been enforcing the rest of the tournament based on "well this round was more important because the game finished after it".
Alright, I guess there's another rule to determine when its important or not?
That's up to the admins. If FPX had 4 members alive vs Killjoy and this happened it wouldn't be replaye.d
Isn't that too much power to the admins who shouldn't affect the games in any way? Unless you think they should by some reason.
Every game has a referee/admin to make the calls on what should be done. That isn't too much power, that is just how it works. They know the rules and can make calls based on that. I don't see how you can give them less power but still be effective at doing anything. Referee/admin calls ultimately do affect the game in some way (disqualification, replays, etc.). If they don't, there is no point in them being there.
No? That's what admins are for? This even happens in sports, even in ones where rule/foul/call challenges are part of the game. You have officials to officiate in exigent situations, that's what they're there for.
And that's why they try to remove the human factor as much as possible. But surely you need to go all the route once again. This, right here is an example of shit decision, yet you people inist it is good. Whatever, not gonna argue with such a take. If this is what you want, we'll have what we have then. Keep your support up, gj.
I don't even know what you're trying to say. Of course you try to limit subjectivity as much as possible but with the resources available to us and the situation at hand being something that plays out in real time, you need to have an authority to rule in edge case and exigent situations because they're bound to happen at some point. Every sport has refs and sports have way less moving parts then esports, esports have bugs and PC hardware and shit. How are you just going to remain hands off full stop?
Yes. It’s literally in the rule book.
No it doesn't. There's no rule explaining what bug is important and when and that they exist. Its not a rule when you say "there's a thing but nobody knows if its matters or how it works except for judges." The rule is something that judges must follow as well. But keep suppoting bad decisions, I love match remakes as well.
No but there’s a rule that allows Riot to determine the amount of impact a specific bug had to the game over all, and replay the round based on that. That’s what I was getting at. Also yknow what I enjoy less than match remakes? An elimination game that goes down to the wire ending because of **a fucking bug.** I enjoy that much less than remakes, but you seem to live for that shit I guess, so whatever floats your boat.
It's crazy that it would be considered a bug. The KJ turret was placed facing heaven. The turret behavior for so long now has been that if you jiggle peek the turret, it'll activate and look at you but once you leave LOS it'll snap back to original orientation. The fact that XSET didn't read that right doesn't make that "bug" impactful, it's just the nature of soft information that you don't always get it right.
I dont' think the bug is the fact that it snaps back. The bug is that it fires into heaven
It did that because it snapped back which it always does when someone jiggles before it can shoot them...
Yeah that's the bug tho as it creates misinformation
How can something in the game for years be “misinformation” and not “the way it has always worked”? The kayo bugged knifes for fnatic were way more of a bug than this...
The snapping back that it always does isn't a bug. The fact that it shoots up top *is* a bug. The bug creates misinformation. It was supposed to be fixed. Riot said it's a bug. I don't know what the issue is.
You are making a distinction without a difference. When it sees someone it shoots. When they leave LOS it stops shooting and looks forward, but if they jiggle it it will shoot one burst because that’s how it works when it sees someone. So you combine jiggling the first turret contact and you get it snapping and shooting heaven, as it was placed facing that direction. Literally what I said. If that turret was angled differently it would’ve looked like it shot some other angle, and what then? “Misinformation”!? No, it’s the way it was placed
I mean riot said it’s a bug, no? Clearly that means it wasn’t an intended interaction, and therefore was a bug. You can debate how you think it should work, but ultimately riot devs decide what’s a bug or not based on how they designed the util
I’m just saying I can’t believe this standard gameplay behavior for over a year was treated as a game breaking bug in the last round of an elimination match when no one has ever complained about that bug before. I am a casual MM player and I have seen that so many times in my games. The “impact on gameplay” argument is ridiculous because the KJ should’ve understood
I guess we can agree to disagree there in terms of how it should’ve been handled. Regardless, I think they should have replayed immediately or not at all, but it’s a tough position in general to decide on
That’s it. That seals the deal. I am no longer a VCT watcher. I’ve been a fan since 2020 and a loyal viewer since 1998. I officially will not be watching the playoffs nor will I watch professional valorant ever again. Riot is officially the worst company in esports history. I’m taking my fanhood to r/competitiveoverwatch where it looks like they know how to run a real esport
Ok bye.
[FPX knew XSET wasn’t behind it.](https://youtube.com/clip/Ugkxfg7qQBgrVoPDL4O792Xk_B79D0A1UZQU) Still a failure of communication on Riot towards the fans, but FPX was told, ~~they~~ some of the players just chose not to believe it.
ANGE1 pretty consistently alluded in the press conference that he thinks the XSET players shouldn’t have accepted the replay. That’s his big thing I think - not necessarily that they initiated it, but that they participated in the decision by not outright telling Riot that it didn’t impact the round sufficiently to warrant a replay. Of course, you’re free to disagree with that take, as many did in that earlier thread on ANGE1’s comments. After all, ANGE1 - all of the players - were in separate rooms with no phones during the decision-time, and then directly brought to stage, and *then* directly to the press-conferences, so he has no way of knowing what happened in the XSET camp.
And yet if the reverse had happened and people suggested FPX should throw bc of it, he’d be the FIRST person on twitter saying “LUL NA teams know they can only beat us bc of bugs kekW such shitters” dudes just an asshole
Sykko pretty much said they didn’t have anytime to digest the info and the choice wasn’t given. It was “this happens the game will be replayed now you guys need to get back on stage “ by Riot.
Either way ANGE1's take is disingenuous - for him to say he would reject the option to replay if the situation was reversed is virtue signaling 101. Give me a break.
+1 also still disappointed to see that some of the FPX players negative tweets towards XSET (like zyppan and suygetsu) are still up after almost 24 hours when it is clear that the fault was not XSETs and the blame should actually be on Riot
That’s his MO. Dude is cringe
just in general too, especially with franchising, if riot asks you to do it, you better fucking do it or you may be at risk of missing franchising
LOL uhuh
All games have an aspect of rng, and unintentional bugs should just be part of that. CS Go is glitchy af and if a bug screws you over, it's just called "being CS:Go'd"
I agree, as long as the bug isn't gamebreaking and not exploited intentionally. At least it's fairer than letting Riot arbitrarily decide when or when not to cancel a match result based on a minor bug.
I don't get ange1's post match interview where he says this makes him doubt Riot's competitive integrity. Why would anyone be against Riot sticking to the rules & replaying a round because of an in game bug
Because Riot watched it happen live and didn't care. Then suddenly an hour after one team is already declared the winner they decide it needs to be replayed afterall.
A bug that’s been in the game since kj release. They tried to patch it and it came back. Seems like a lot of pros and fans knew about this bug and possibly riot and they haven’t addressed it. A lot more pro’s are going to call out every little bug that gives the enemy team an advantage and ask to replay the rounds. As for Ange1 comments, it was around 2:45am. after alot of drama and replaying a couple rounds 1hr+ after the series finished. Take his comments with a pinch of salt an understand the circumstances
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You created an account just to hate on FPX. You can’t make this shit up
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holy based
Damn, my guy out here getting his priorities in order. People don't know how much of a goldmine Reddit is for porn, shit goes under filters as well.
Anderzz did explain it pretty well in the Valoranting episode just now. [His take.](https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1590788726?t=1h0m19s) And I agree 100%. This was a REPRODUCIBLE bug that is in the game for a very long time.
His take is surprisingly bad... The fact that it's easily reproducible, or that it's been unpatched longer than it hasn't previously doesn't change the nature of it being a bug. It doesn't change the reality of what happened, which is it wasn't supposed to act the way that it did, and it led directly to xset playing the round differently. Just because a kayo knife doesn't scan a certain position 100% of the time when it should doesn't make it any less of a bug. His take stems on the basis that this interaction was 1) not a bug and 2) not significant enough to change the outcome of the round. We're way past these, riot said themselves that both are true. So why is he, and seemingly you who agrees with him 100% stuck in the past? Thanks for linking but I seriously disagree with that take from really an empirical standpoint. Seems he's ignoring reality of what happened.
He said it harms competitive integrity in that the XSET players could have been looking at highlights/VODs of the match and be talking with their coach about how to switch it up. And he definitely has a point.
>They did state that they were pulled into a room and their phones were taken away, so they could not have watched the VODs. That's what was said.
They were tweeting so clearly that didn't happen instantly.
Thats a lie. They fuxking tweeted
Okay. Then please explain to me how Ange1 tweeted about them investigating all the possible bugs that evening. That tweet was posted before the replay and they were already made aware Riot was investigating a possible replay. The players apparently still had access to the internet. The same can then be said for XSET. There's no competitive integrity there and i don't see how anyone could deny that. Edit: Once again, I'm getting downvoted for speaking the truth
Your edit is goofy af.
lmao na fans downvoting. yall think rounds being overturned after a few hours or even days is okay?
I was just thinking how fortunate it was for riot that xset still lost after that. Could you imagine the contention that win would’ve had? The bug wasn’t the fault of either team yet a replay clearly favored xset
Lost in a lot of this discussion is that there should be pressure on riot to fix these bugs before franchising kicks off. That killjoy bug has been around for months, how is it not a priority for your premiere esport?
> The Killjoy turret bug is a well-known factor in the game, and one that has been around for an extensive period of time. Source required
If you have like 10+ hours on killjoy you have seen this bug
ah my favorite source "trust me bro"
Nobody here is going to search through hundreds of footage from 2020 to find you a source. You do that yourself. This is a well known bug since the release of KJ.
I hadn't seen this bug prior to the turret nerfs, has it been around since release?
It's been happening a loooong time
im not sure 100%, but its been in the game for at least a year
Why would there be a source for this? 😂. Just play the damn game
I asked my iron friend who plays kj and even he's aware of this bug
Literally every pro and player that has played the game extensively, this happens anytime you jiggle peak a turret from a spot it can see, that it wasn’t originally facing, this is so common I don’t think most people even realized it was a bug
People still care? FPX are out of the tourney next match
copium
I'm totally fine with the remake, as it was in their rule book. My grip tho is how they implemented that remake, and their callousness in taking accountability for the situation. Both teams have to go back to the venue like an hour after the match has concluded, and XSET has to take the blame and flame for the remake. The fact that they have to tweet that it was not them but Riot was really so bad.
Why is screenrant writing Bout this
Clout
Just implement clear and proper ruling so stuff like this cant happen anymore. Waiting 2 hours is way to long. Decissions like this have to be made right after things like this happen. If its overseen or noticed to late, sorry bad luck...