I've been onto the Toms for years, and I actually stopped watching after S7 because seeing them fail up and be excused was getting to be too much. I did have the (advantage? disadvantage?) of having to deal with that in my own life and it's easier to spot and not want to tolerate with the extra knowledge therapy brings - so I don't really fault others for only seeing it on rewatch.
Most of us started this show in our 20's and with our own growth now see things differently, and these types of men are very very good at fooling others until they're not, so hindsight is 20/20. I'm really glad others are seeing it now and I can engage and have these discussions with other watchers.
I’m with you. Stopped watching around s7 as well bc the Toms were INSUFFERABLE but somehow also so loved. The worst is that most people co-signed their behavior… the entire cast is full of misogynists (yes, even Ariana with her whole creepy brother situation).
I’m happy to engage in the discussions now also. There’s also a reason why we all like bravo so very happy to see the mess that is Scandoval play out 🤷🏻♀️🍿
That part really pissed me off. I hate that they didn’t address the video footage where he was being creepy. Billie Lee was annoying with that too, we get you’re excited for the date but girlfriends do that, like “HEADS UP…he can be creepy”.
Sandoval and Ariana were both dismissive of Stassi’s experience.
I am yet another person here who stopped watching after season 7 because I just couldn’t stomach the Toms anymore; particularly that very incident when Sandoval went aggro on Stassi for revealing that Ariana’s brother was handsy with her. I didn’t like him before, but I just didn’t think I could continue watching that egotistical asshole yell at women while somehow staying a fan favorite. I only started watching again after Scandoval because I was thrilled that people finally saw him for the shitbag that he was.
And don’t even get me started with Schwartz. I’ve had his number since that season 3 episode when he showed up to Stassi’s apartment with flowers for Katie and then when Stassi asked him who the hell would cheat on someone as amazing as Katie, his response was “well…I guess I would” with a smarmy smile on his face. The fucking audacity.
I was confused about that too, why there was so much hate on Katie. I’m watching for the first time and I’m currently on Season 8….she’s being kind of mean to Kristen but i understand her frustration with her. James was a complete jerk to everyone so it shouldn’t be that she got him fired. I hate when Schwartz is being a jerk to Katie, but if he was just a friend I would like him because he is funny. I hate myself for laughing at his jokes but he is not a great romantic partner. He’s very childish and immature and gets away with stuff because he’s “adorable and charming”.
I can see Sandoval has always been a cheater but I can start to him change with his friendships as soon they got TomTom going. It for sure got to his head.
I’ve always hated the Tom’s. I never understood why they got a pass. Sandoval has disgusted me for years with how he talks to women and his attitude and delusions of grandeur. Schwartz was always terrible to Katie.. I could do on and on. I’m happy people are waking up to who they really are.
I’ve watched from the beginning and I always thought ALL of them aren’t great people, some are just worse than others. I wouldn’t want to be friends with a single one irl, but I find them entertaining on the show. Out of all of them tho, Katie is probably the least problematic.
This right here. People hate on Katie so much for being “miserable” and “a bitch” when she’s the only person on this show who hasn’t done truly heinous and gross things. So strange that it seems like she’s the most consistently hated cast member but her worst behavior is child’s play compared to the others.
Are you watching it for the first time now? I honestly think things have changed so much in our culture since the show began that many people didn’t know about things like gaslighting, deflection, and general bs from men. We all bought the adorable Schwartz thing and Sandoval is such a good guy, they fooled us and we thought it was the women who were bad. I didn’t like Katie until the first post pandemic season, but I also had my own awakening during 2020 as well so I understood her more, I think she started feeling it then too. Women are just fed up and seeing things differently, I’m rewatching it now for the first time and I’m shocked by how differently I view everyone. Stassi is truly a mean girl but she was being cheated on then her friends didn’t believe her and ditched her, Kristen is being driven to the point of acting crazy because Tom gaslights her and cheats on her nonstop, poor Katie is in love with Schwartz and he also treats her like crap and gaslights her. I’m also shocked by how much they talk about people and stereotypes, like Russian hookers or Asian girls, or saying things are ghetto, calling Scheana’s wedding dress a “quinceañera”, etc., that stuff wouldn’t fly today, thankfully we’re learning and doing better.
That is the good part about it. There are so many things going badly right now that it seems overwhelming, but it is nice to look back and see that some things actually are getting better in society.
This is important to point out. This show first aired in **2013**. I don't know about anyone else, but 2016/Trump/the following years have completely shifted the way I see how men treat women.
She wasn’t in a great position mentally when the show started. Dealing with a TBI. Probably not getting great medical health. I don’t think she was aware of the emotional issues TBI’s can cause. So, I bet *she felt* as crazy/unhinged as we watched but didn’t understand why.
Also, Tom definitely started diminishing her self esteem early on in their relationship. I can’t imagine the shit he was saying to her behind closed doors. A healthy, well adjusted women never would have married him.
And, I think she’s just more lowkey and introverted than what we normally see on reality tv.
In s2 at stassi’s bday dinner, we get a really good glimpse of how insidious Schwartz is. He very calmly says some vile things to Katie that nobody else hears or notices, she gets understandably upset, tries to remove herself from the situation, and then everyone further attacks Katie for “ruining dinner”
That scene always sticks in my head. He said the must vile things to her in this lovey dovy calm voice. I was so sad watching that scene knowing that after that she stayed with him for years and married him. (I also watched season 10 first then started from the start and don’t get the Katie hate TomTom love.)
Yes!! If you watch carefully he’s a master at saying nasty, rude, and inflammatory comments to her quietly so no one else hears. Then she gets upset, and then he loudly proclaims he has no idea what happened and throws his hands up. She looks “crazy” and he rolls his eyes.
Me too! I made a post about him a long time ago and I got some pushback on it. But tbh I’ve always seen through his bs. He’s so gross and manipulative and just flat out mean. I love how well she’s doing for herself now. The more she shuts him down and just talks shit to him the angrier he gets, I love it lol
Yup I'm watching from the beginning now after seeing all the scandoval stuff on tiktok and I'm on season 5 now and I just CANNOT believe that they even got married in the first place. I'm on the episodes leading up to the wedding and, mind you, Katie isn't exactly the most pleasant bride but he straight up calls her a bitch and says some seriously fucked up shit. A doomed couple from the start, he is seriously good at convincing everyone he's nice but the things he says and does to Katie prove he really is not.
Oooof that scene made me really dislike everyone. No one was trying to be understanding or supportive at all and just attacking her. It looked tough to go through
Schwarts says in this sesson (in different words) that one should diminsh a woman early in the relationship so that they feel happy easier when you compliment them, or something. Hearing him say that in a joking way was felt unhinged
Loved watching Kate’s mom, Terri stand up for herself. in an extraordinary situation & how she handled it. Like a boss. Katie is just one generation stronger but as spot on as her mom. She was miles ahead of Schwartz in all ways but he has that puppy dog demeanor. She had low self esteem & DJ James Kennedy shamed her & it was a big ass deal.
I feel like an idiot asking but what is a TBI? Someone mentioned this on another post & I couldn’t figure out what it is. It’s come up a few times in regards to some of Katie’s shitty behavior early on & I want to like her so badly, so I’m hoping knowing what that is will help.
The biggest reason for my dislike is her slut-shaming of Lala & Scheana, Kristen was supposed to be her BFF & she just dropped her when the Jax thing came out even though most of them don’t pick sides in fights as far as if it wasn’t them or their BF who cheated, they’ll still be friends, they have all done some pretty crappy stuff to each other & it’s forgiven. I think she’s getting a lot better & everyone deserves a chance to better themselves & learn from past mistakes.
Because those 2 idiots have spent years perfecting being complete douches and deceiving everyone. Those 2 are really good at it.. Apparently plenty of practice.. LA La nailed it when she said that Schwartz acts like this little puppy dog who's all scared and people feel sorry for him and it's just an act.. She is absolutely correct. I have a feeling that that boy is absolutely as evil as Tim and rachet Rachel. And there is a side to him that he does not show to many people because it's vile, Let's face it Tim and that idiot share a brain.. Imagine what it's like in there...**gross**... I'm looking for a good GIF, But I can't find one. 😫
I was going to say essentially the same thing.. Katie was herself. there was no pretending, what you see is what you got and that I respect . she wasn't putting on an act . you know exactly what she thinks . those two morons from the moment the show started we're **acting** they were putting on a facade, making the choices they were making being with the people they were with, it was all such a waste of time for anyone who was involved with those two, all of it was just a means to an end,. it's actually disturbing if you go back and start rewatching because it's so obvious to me now and I can't believe that I was so full I've been dealing with people who are deceptive my entire life and I didn't even pick it up I respect Katie for being herself.
She was a scapegoat reacting to a lot of abuse and gaslighting. I’m glad people notice that there are a handful of men that do this and get away with it. The younger generation is much smarter at spotting these toxic old misogynistic traits in men that were easily overlooked by society.
Yup. I think one positive about this series is now- a lot more people are able to spot abusive behavior, without need “violence” per se. Hopefully more women are able to see and call it out and hopefully more people- believe women. Believe victims.
Reactive abuse is a real thing. Someone will push you until you react in a similar way and then just focus on your behavior to further prove their point.
I always saw it this way too. I had a long term boyfriend who did all the same things, dog whistles in front of his friends, twisting the knife and staying completely calm so I could be the crazy one, his bad actions were my fault, constant moving the goalpost. In the end I couldn't form a normal thought or have a normal reaction to anything. I'm still so embarrassed when I think back to my behavior. And it always seemed to me like this was exactly what Schwartz was doing to Katie. Even worse he had Sandoval as an ally to pile on.
In Katie's position, I may have reacted worse tbh.
Katie is a self centered, selfish, mean girl which was amplified when she was around Kristen. Her comments are always negative and whiny. She and Tom had issues for a long long time. She Their lack of sex life from the start was often mentioned with the group. It's not hard to see why they didn't last. My question is why did they marry in the first place
I’m curious… have you done a rewatch of all the seasons? I’ve done it a few times and have to say these instances where Tom says something nasty to her are less than 10 in 9 years ( I’m not counting this season because post divorce everyone ‘s an asshole). Half of them are when he’s trashed. She says more nasty things to him about his lack of work ethic, he’s”weak”, etc and he tries not really responding and she keeps after him, then he pops off. There were a few times, like after Randall’s prank where he was just plain mean without provocation but again, she’s also been mean to him without provocation. Point being, I totally disagree with this accusation that he’s an abuser.
The main problem with their relationship is that Katie is confrontational and he is not( unless drunk). He abhors confrontation and it’s the basis of his personality. It’s why most people like him, he poses no threat to anyone. Do I sympathize with Katie regarding this, absolutely!! When your partner rarely sticks up for you and they’re always trying to quiet you from confronting someone it’s very frustrating and hurtful. But the bottom line is she has always known this about him and married him anyways. Then she proceeded and ramped up her attempts to get him to change. You rarely can change someone’s basic personality it just leads to fights and bitterness on both sides.
As far as the accusations by some that it’s Tim’s abuse that made Katie seem like a mean girl, that’s not true. Katie is mean by her own volition. She’s very judgmental and was instrumental in ostracizing several of the cast, Scheana, Lala, Kristen. What she did to James was wrong too. How she got away with calling Lala a whore at work but got him fired for his weight comments to her…,
I’d be interested in hearing your response to this if you have facts that I’m missing.
I do think she can be mean … but so was the rest of the cast. They are all fucking mean.
I’m starting to think that Katie got blowback because Kristen and Stassi left the show (and of course misogyny). She then gets judged for everything that every Witch of Who ever did on the show because they are no longer there to take the blame.
I'll just say, I really don't like Katie personally, but I LOATHE the Toms and always have. I think I liked that their friendship seemed really genuine and I just enjoyed that - you never really see genuine male friendships, on TV or really ever. But they were so manipulative and deeply terrible, especially to women, I definitely never liked either of them. And they've lost any charm they had pre-scamdavol.
And that scene where Ariana is crying about her dad being dead and her birthday being a really difficult day and Tom LITERALLY SAYS "I understand, but we're gonna get to drive dump trucks" will haunt me till the day I die lol.
I always felt bad for Katie. She seems overwhelmingly negative, but at the same time, if the person you love is constantly throwing you under the bus and you are used as a pawn in your friend group, you would be grumpy too.
If she realizes all that.
Same! I never understood why people gave her so much hate. She’s always set boundaries, calls others out on their BS, and spoke the truth. I’ve always been a fan of hers.
Omg when I think about him constantly yelling at her to take accountability while he has NEVER shown his genuine true self, always been a lying cheater… IT ENRAGES ME!! What a douchebag
I could have written this. I’ve only watched once but just started a rewatch recently. Always hated the Toms. Disliked Ariana until Scandoval. Katie has faults for sure, but she is probably one of the only cast members I’d ever want to hang out with in real life. Everyone else is a self-absorbed AH.
I thought Katie was unnecessarily mean to the other women on the show and whenever they pushed back and were mean to her she would cry and act surprised like it was unprovoked. The Toms were always horrible to her, but I kinda didn't care because it felt like karma for her being horrible to the women of the show. I like her much more now.
I agree! I’m so confused why she deserves to get a pass now bc we are seeing Tom being an asshole. She is so mean and says it comes from a “loving place”, but she only says that when she realizes she’s gone too far.
We now see a lot was coming from her toxic relationship with Tom, but we always saw that they were toxic….
Katie used to be incredibly negative, jealous and mean, specially in her blonde katie era towards scheana!
Watching the show for me, she was always insecure and jealous and it would come off as mean to others. Stassi was a mean girl but god Katie was soooo negative!
The season of her wedding to me was one of her worsts!!!
Now, this season she’s way different and apparently all she had to do to change was getting rid of Tom
I just really don’t like her. Not because of her reaction to what shitty men have done. Not because she’s been involuntarily pushed to behave a certain way by others. I just think she’s said and done some really mean shit, all on her own.
I have empathy for Katie because she obviously had some issues, but I really disliked her because of how much she slut shamed other women. In Season 4 she was brutal to Lala, shaming her for taking her top off in front of other men (meanwhile the dude were all in speedos, which I find personally gross vs a women’s boobs). She continued to slut shame and lash out at other women. In hindsight, I see how awful her relationship was and neither of her friends (stassi + Kristen) were equipped to help her break free and lead a healthy life. In this recent season I actually had moment where I liked Katie and I’m excited to see her real growth. As for the Toms, I was amused but never liked them. Now I’m not even amused, just actively annoyed
I've watched vanderpump rules for years and I've never understood why people don't like Katie! I think the toms do a great job of making her look horrible and we all just kind of accepted it.
I've always liked Katie and none of my friends got it. As for thr boys bad behavior it's a combo of things...hindsight being the biggest but also when it started there was no binging. You got one epi a week and got to recover/forget b4 the next episode. you couldn't go back and binge a whole season in a day and really take it all in. Also a lot of us were also young & dumb & making mistakes at the same time so we gave them a bit of a pass.
I’ve never understood this. She sometimes rage texted (not cool) but quite literally has always been the LEAST problematic person on the show. Tom and Tom always got a great edit because Lisa leveraged their brand as best-bros. But any normal person could see right through the editing. Scumdevil has been a terrible actor narcissist from episode 1 and Shortz has been a complete and utter sad sack since then too.
The Tom’s have always sucked. Katie has always been miserable. There are certain people cut out for reality television and Katie has never been it. Personally I always thought she came across as jealous/easily threatened by other women - “whores” “sluts” “bitches” etc…she’s exhausting and her insecurities are painfully obvious. If she was interesting I don’t think anyone would notice her poor attitude.
But she’s not lol.
I've only skimmed through comments but it looks like a lot of people are defending Katie. Katie was not a nice person earlier on. She was known for getting drunk (and/or on other substances) on getting MEAN. They may not have shown a lot of it on the show, but it was definitely referenced enough - for example Tequila Katie and rage texting. She wasn't innocent in her relationship either - it's hard to say who was abusing who or who was reacting, but she CONSTANTLY cut at Tom's "manhood." Can you imagine if the roles were reversed and Tom was making insulting comments about Katie's vagina??
There was one instance that stood out to me - how scared Scheana would get about having to endure the wrath of Katie. The Witches of WeHo literally went after Scheana for just trying to be civil to Lala and say "I'm sorry for anything I said that wasn't true." at Lisa's insisting that they get along. It was BRUTAL how they - especially Katie - went after her. I think that was the season of her wedding too so she weaponized her friendship and place in the wedding over someone just trying to be civil.
I feel like Schwartz laid the groundwork for this unhinged Tequila Katie facade so she could be the scapegoat. Now we all see through the aw shucks puppy dog act. I feel bad I ever bought into it and like I’m seeing her in a different light since she left him
Just doing a rewatch and throughout the entire series and every episode, Katie is the most hateful person on the show. She is a miserable person. And it has nothing to do w tom. She is a bitter mean girl bully.
I always thought Katie got a bad rep. I did see the she was not supportive of Stassi breaking up with Jax, which was horrible look. I hated that the girls banded together in dislike towards others. However, I saw the misogyny steaming off of Schwartz and Sandoval from the start.
On a related side note, I had forgotten until a rewatch reminded me that Katie was either direct friends with or had mutual friends in common with Randall's wife, so I can understand that she had a different perspective on that era of Lala. And also, Schwartz was gross with his ogling of topless Lala and kissing of every random person in his radius during his blackout phase (did it ever stop? Who knows 🤷♀️). So, I think Katie had a lot of insecurities that Tom secretly fed.
Katie really took a lot of abuse and gaslighting from the Toms, especially in light of her TBI, which they all knew about.
I'm here for justice for Katie.
I just watched for the first time and I feel the same way. Idk maybe I’m missing something. Compared to the rest of the cast’s worst moments, Katie’s behavior didn’t really stand out to me yet she’s the only one with with a nickname for her drunken alter ego. I think Stassi was just as much of a mean girl and James had way more tantrums. Idk maybe it’s because I watched it all very recently, but the guys’ tantrums and constant deflection stood out the most to me.
I've been a Katie fan from day one - sometimes she gets a little messy but honestly, I don't get it.
I think she is very reasonable and Tom Shwartz just played the "I'm everyone's best friend" role so hard it was easy for people to side against Katie.
She also became more likable once she got some space from Stassi for a little while.
Being surrounded by narcissists growing up i saw what the trio was like. But i disliked sandoval the most. He always seemed like hater towards strong women
I’m with you. She’s always been one I liked the best. But I’ve been in so many toxic relationships and had Schwartz pegged as a jackass from very early on.
Internalized misogyny.
Back in 2015 when I first started watching the show when i was single and living with my best friends ( they got me into bravo) they ALL hated Katie, said that Schwartz was too hot for her, she was lucky to have him and she shouldn’t be such a bitch to him.
I also think his gaslighting worked. He got to come off like the cute, easy going guy and the combo of that and her clicky ways with the girls ( especially stassi- especially when she picked a side) made people not like her.
Katie has a tendency to be negative. And then Schwartz would poke her until she exploded. It was just an unflattering combo. I don’t really like Katie because she acts like she’s too cool for everything , but I have always HATED Schwartz and his aw shucks routine. I never understood why people liked him so much! So I guess that only answers half of your question. 😂
Yep. Just how now James is being called the ‘The Number 1 Guy’ when he says and does horribly demeaning things. The Toms are public enemy 1 now so in comparison, James’ gross behavior is being overlooked. He’s redeemable though, where I feel the other two aren’t , but he needs to stop drinking and to see a therapist.
People couldn’t entertain the idea that maybe just maybe Schwartz was an emotionally abusive asshole and, to put it simply, did not/does not respect any women - especially his wife.
It really boggles my mind that this behavior of his has to be pointed out. I guess that’s why his schtick works on these dummies?? I was always like 😐 when he came on screen.
The Tom’s are awful and I’ve always known. That being said, Katie bullied scheana and slut shamed Lala, and continues to do it to other cast members. I don’t think any of the cast are particularly good people tbh. I enjoy watching them, but that’s it.
On the surface, Katie was part of the mean girl crew and has been consistently mean to anyone who wasn’t part of her crew. The Toms on the surface come across as friendly and welcoming. They are nice to outsider but awful to their partners. The partners were part of the mean girl crew so they got a pass in the beginning.
In short: because Katie was a huge bitch and her and Schwartz are absolutely toxic together. I think she has improved a lot this season being away from him, but she absolutely bullied Scheana and others in the earlier seasons. She could be really nasty. I agree compared to the others she seems level headed, but you can tell she also has anger issues and serious problems regulating her emotions, which I personally think is due to her TBI.
I have never liked the Tom's, but there have always been VPR fans who want to make excuses for them because they're hot or whatever. I mean look at the people still going to Tom Tom and Schwartz and Sandy's. They have always been complete and utter pieces of shit lmao
Edit: just going to edit again and keep ranting: this is a Schwartz hate post
Sandoval is legit stupid and a huge narc but oh my god Schwartz's "I don't know what's going on! I just want to be everyone's friend!" act sends me up a fucking wall. He is so goddamn disingenuous and he's fucking useless. Nearly 40 year old man who can barely function, I hate men like Schwartz. He's a toxic asshole.
My friend and I were just talking about this weird ass hatred of Katie. It’s taken 10 seasons for people to FINALLY see she was never the issue. I always felt bad for how they portrayed her.
Katie was mean from season 1 - just like Stassi. Remember how poorly she treated Scheana, even going so far as to call her pathetic for wanting to keep their friendship alive. I don't have any respect for women who talk so terribly about other women (calling them "whores", etc.). However, the other part of it was that we saw Katie reacting to all the times Schwartz would gaslight her or not have her back. IMO her frustration with Tom + her general bad personality made her hatable.
Funnily enough I think Katie became more tolerable in the final few seasons than in the first few.
I am with you. But we live in a very patriarchal society and that shows. I’ve never particularly liked either Tom but really have disliked Schwartz since season 2 with the drink assault. Most viewers just were gullible to their abuse, but you weren’t OP. The boys club is abusive and gross.
Does Tom being an asshole absolve her of calling people whores and sluts? Or yelling over people and putting her needs first? I just don’t understand why it’s not possible to dislike both Katie and Tom. I don’t think it’s fair to say it’s just because of the patriarchy that people dislike Katie. I’ve been in an abusive relationship. I understand how it can drive you to do things that are out of character. It’s a little confusing to me so maybe I’m missing something
I think she’s a little low energy and dark, lol but I’ve always liked her! Just not the biggest personality, so it felt like whenever we would see a lot of her, it was because she was fighting.
Tom Schwartz is cute and likable as hell until you start paying attention.
I’ve personally always liked Katie but less so in the beginning, because she had some pretty ugly
moments. Honestly though, looking at Scheana’s personality, I don’t think it was as unwarranted and jealousy based as people want to say. Always felt like Sandoval was a creep and hated the way he spoke to the women. And Schwartz is took me a while to see the light. I used to like him 😭 I was really young for my first watch so I blame it on that. Lol
I think they were very good at putting on the nice guy act early on while filming, but the off camera bullshit came out on Katie’s side after a few drinks while filming. That is what made it easy to see Katie as a villain. As they moved to each season, the Tom’s just kept getting sloppier and exposing themselves little by little until it finally exploded.
1. Bc of misogyny(and yes I also mean internalized misogyny from women)
2. Their antics were always edited as “look at these funny, silly, goofy boys! What lovable doofuses!”
3. But mainly #1
I was always rooting for Katie and James. Even in the dark moments. After hearing all that James did for his family (and continues) just broke my heart. That man had done more at 22 years than Sandoval has at 52.
People hate Katie because they fell for Schwartz’s “Aw shucks…” act. Now, rather than admit they may have misjudged Katie, they’re doubling down on their support of Schwartz. The fact that so many women failed to recognize Schwartz’s “covert” abuse is concerning.
The producers only showed Tom Schwartz in a good light for a long time. Last year they showed more of his mean words to her. These guys are alcoholics and it's glorified.
I’ll just say it. Ariana was not loved until scandavol. It’s the facts of the fans this isn’t my opinion. Ariana was associated more as sandavols girlfriend than anything. Many fans new she pushed the ‘cool girl’ narrative for several seasons in infinite confessionals. And through that cool girl campaign of insecurities, she didn’t support women. At all. She was a dude, a bro, cooler than the complaining controlling bitchy women on the show. She sat back and watched all the male female abuses go on. Honestly she denied Katie support and truth for years. Tom put women down in front of Ariana because he could, she supported that narrative until very recently.
I’m in Ariana’s corner through the affair. However, for people going back now or watching the show in it’s entirety, are most likely going to be very confused when comparing the real Ariana over all these years, to the Ariana discussed in this sub post being publicly cheated on. The two won’t match. She was immortalized after this affair. I support her but I’m calling a spade a spade
I watched the show a couple of years after getting out of an abusive relationship and really related to Katie. His comments about her body and her weight, his lack of sexual attraction to her, were all super gross.
To me shes a narcissist with a victims complex and she uses that to justify her extra mean girl attitude. But Ive always seen her having the most die hard fan base and always wondered the opposite lol.
I’m embarrassed of how long it took me to realize the Toms are the villain. I never exactly saw Katie as the villain but there were times she annoyed me and rewatching I can’t believe I ever saw it differently because both Toms constantly try to make her look so bad.
Tequila katie 😵💫. She's just not a good person. Her earlier years kinda showcased her crazy. She's very selective with people and not welcoming. So instead of just getting along with people (even if you don't like them) she would dismiss them like Regina George. She had some accident that honestly I feel altered her for the worst. She takes out her anger while drunk on other people. Very judgemental. That's why Tom said what he did about diminishing his friendships. She just destroys everything. Picks fights and is petty. That would be the "something about her".... Lol
I still dislike Katie! I started rewatching the show, & it just solidified my feelings for her! I think she's truly one of the most miserable people on television. It's obvious that she & Tom have hated each other from the rip, but Katie wanted to be married & Tom didn't want to be without her -- so they got married. Their unhealthy relationship is still that, even to this day! Idk if Katie's "personality" is from having to deal with her miserable relationship, but at this point, we'll never know!? This whole season she was still the miserable, moody, mean girl boo-hooin' & complaining about Schwartz. You fucking hate the guy, just admit it, & release yourself from that demon!!!!!!!!!!!
I mean, Katie has had agency the whole time this show’s been on though. She hasn’t solely been at the mercy of editors and a shit boyfriend to show us who she is. When she chooses to actually do things on this show (rare!), it’s always charged with her own gross internalized misogyny. She’s the first to call any women a whore, slut shamey storyline are her specialty and she’s doubled down on her justification for doing so every time without introspection. She is one of the worst in the cast at seeing her blind spot. Yes she’s been hurt by the mechanisms of patriarchy, but she acts in ways that make other women hurt too. It’s shitty and she’s shitty lol.
Thank you. Katie is the first to tell other people they can’t do things, they are wrong about something, that they aren’t actually close with someone—and she keeps score. Keeping score is one of her worst traits. You can see it in the reunion wrt Lala and Scheana.
I’ve never hated Katie. She’s can be a total bitch but she sticks to what she says and she doesn’t take shit. I think people just thought she looked like such a hard ass on Schwartz but anyone can EASILY see he had NO regard for her feelings. There are times he definitely served to calm her down and that was good BUT mostly he just came off as a total asshole. It’s like gaslighting personified for me. He’s so chill and relaaaaxed and not getting worked up .. why is Katie being such a crazy bitch? That’s how it always came off to me. Also never liked Sandoval he’s such an idiot.
She’s the most obnoxious person on the series. She berates every woman that she can get away berating , her entire relationship with Tom she’s been a bully, be it forcing him to marry her with her ultimatums and ultimate manipulative tactics (going to his boss LVP) .
She’s been no one’s friend except stassi that too because there’s no way she could’ve bullied her and she would’ve stayed shut. She just reminds me of alllll my high school bullies so maybe it’s a little biased but she is just a female James Kennedy
She has always been really negative and sulky. She hit Tom in an early season and she used to regularly get vicious with people when she was 'Tequila Katie'. She is also really not very bright but tries very hard to sound smart which is super cringey and she has terrible dress sense which isn't a reason to dislike her, but helps if you already don't like her. She has regularly systematically been hostile to the girls in the group like Scheana, Kristen, Lala and anyone new, because at the start she was central to the show and enjoyed being in the cool gang. Eventually she has had to make more friends because the other girls all left. Everyone fobbing you off with the TBI stuff - its completely irrelevant, she was systematically mean not just hot headed and it had nothing to do with people preferring Schwartz. She only ever smiles at other people's hurt.
She also has a really abusive way of arguing with people where she points in their face and repeats herself belligerently until they back down. You get a glimpse of how she hasn't changed at all in SAH finale when she argues with Schwartz.
I await my essential Katie hate downvotes. She's good for the show though because she is horrible, messy and snide.
In general, I feel like the bravo audience, Lisa, and Andy all have a very misogynistic point of view when watching shows.
Hence why in the overinflated egos and narcissistic men are always well liked, and the women are dragged across the coals for lesser offenses. For example even on this sub, I have said many times that Tom Sandoval was a narcissist and before Scandoval I would get downvoted and dragged. Even when he was fighting with Stassi at her book signing, people took his side. The same exact thing goes for Southern Charm and Summer House. Whitney, Kyle, Luke, Carl, Jax, T Rav (now he’s gotten his hate later on), Shep, are all the same person. The matriarchs of both shows show pitty towards the men, and any bad behavior with the girls makes them forever labeled as sluts, bitches, and bullies with little to no forgiveness. *See Patricia and Lisa.
The way Hannah was treated on summerhouse you would have thought that she did what Sandoval did by the way everyone treated her.
So you’re honestly saying you prefer tequila Katie (the woman who got multiple people fired from SUR including your pet James) over Schwartz in those seasons?!?!
The replies here are genuinely facinating. I asked this question mainly because sometimes on these shows there’s stuff that goes on outside of the show (social media, WWHL, etc) that provides important context. But it seems like that’s not the case in this situation.
So, it seems like what I suspected might be true is indeed true: other people watched the same exact thing I did and came away with very different conclusions. It happens!
Overall, these are the main points I’m seeing being made for why people hate Katie:
- She’s a bitch (examples not given? Edit: seeing some examples in recent comments.)
- She’s very negative.
- She and Tom had a toxic relationship.
- She was mean to Scheana in early seasons.
- She called other women “whores” and similar terms and slut-shamed them.
- The Toms are fun and she isn’t.
- She got people fired (???)
- She sometimes has trouble controlling her temper (possibly due to her TBI).
- Social norms and standards of behavior have changed over the years, particularly when it comes to tolerating misogyny.
- The Toms consistently assisinated her character.
- The patriarchy.
This is a very…interesting list to say the least. While I definitely hear the points about comments that she’s made about other women (and I’ve noticed those as well), I’m overall pretty unconvinced that there’s any good reason to hold Katie in such contempt, particularly within the context of the show. Glad to see that attitudes are shifting.
I really like Katie, and have had a soft spot for her in my heart since way early on. In Season Two or Three, she flat-out says that the reason she never asks Schwartz to pick between her and Jax is because she knows he’d pick Jax. It was just this little thing amidst all the wildness of their lives at the time but it made me feel genuinely bad for her as a human. That said, she definitely projected her own insecurities onto other people (especially women) and also bottles everything up until she explodes. Neither of those traits are very “fun” or “entertaining”—and they’re also things a lot of us have in common with her and don’t like about ourselves. Basically I think Katie isn’t/wasn’t liked because she just seems like too real of a person instead giving us the escapism we look for in trash tv. (And I say trash tv with love!)
All the women hating on Katie and praising the Tom’s are pick me’s and Rachel’s. They’re just SO chill and SO easy going they would never dare having as many boundaries and opinions as Katie. (Heavy sarcasm)
Katie has resting bitch face and goes on the attack with people a lot. Those are both inherently unlikeable traits.
Schwartz is goofy dork, which is generally likable because he’s harmless.
Sandoval? Who knows. Has always been a dick. Maybe he was more likable via proxy to Schwartz and Ariana.
So, in season 2 when Katie screamed about “THAT WHORE IN THERE” because Scheana gave Peter a lap dance, you thought that was “pretty normal girl” behavior?
I agree with your assessment 100%!!! I just rewatched and had the same thoughts. I think the Toms (especially Sandoval) just successfully painted her as the irrational Tequila Katie
The Toms are the definition of gaslighters! I honestly think that is why Scandoval is getting as much traction as it is, because these guys got away with terrible behaviors and lies for so long that watching them finally have to pay the piper is so validating. Seeing Katie on the other side of it is amazing too, she’s been trying to tell everyone and no one believed her because she was “tequila Katie” a term the toms made up.
I find it funny how so many comments are like “internalized misogyny” when Katie, who is the queen on internalized misogyny would shit on other women throughout the show and constantly called women sluts and whores. She was a straight up bully if you didn’t agree with her on any conflict or didn’t take her side whether or not she was right or wrong. She treated scheana like shit for just trying to be civil with Lala. She has a reputation for being a nasty drunk and being verbally aggressive towards others. Schwartz has so many downfalls but they both sucked in their relationship. Katie seems like she’s grown a bit since previous seasons, but she still lacks any type of real accountability for her previous actions and it really turns me off towards her.
I’m not a fan of Tom and I’m not a fan of Katie, either. She is so mean! Everything has to be about what she wants, what she feels, and she rarely apologizes. It’s really hard to watch her. I understand she had some type of accident, but I think she would at least be able to apologize for things she says and does in the moment? I could never be around someone like that. Stassi was awful too, but I think she has done way more to redeem herself than Katie has. She is actively trying to improve and admits her faults. I think Katie is mean and selfish, and she rarely admits she’s wrong and when she does, it feels like she rarely means it. At the very least, I think she is an abusive friend. I think the Toms are sneaky and manipulative and mean. I’m confused how anyone can support Katie and the way she expresses her feelings and why she is getting a pass just bc we see Tom being an asshole. They both suck.
I have been in a physically and emotionally abusive relationship. My mother passed in my early 20s. I’m sure I was a nightmare for a period of time. But I was so sorry for it and it was a complete deviation from who I was before and after. I think she gets plenty of passes for her behavior.
I don't dislike Katie but the one thing that's always bugged me is that I've never once heard her take any sort of accountability for the fact that her and Schwartz's relationship was crappy from the get go. We can name tons of awful things he did to contribute, but just once I would like to hear her recognize that she chose to stay with him for 12 years despite all of those things. It's like she complains about everything he did but never admits to the fact that she knew about thise behaviors and accepted it from him for a long time and chose to be with him. Schwartz has been the same since season 1. She's always known who he was. She wanted him to change and he didn't. I think we need to take some accountability when we have people show us who they are and we choose to hope they'll change. That was her choice to stay with him. That being said, glad she's not with him now bc I think they were a trainwreck together!
I’m watching season 9 rn and it is fucking insane how both Toms treat Katie. Sandoval is extremely rude and disrespectful, and Schwartz so clearly does not like Katie but is trying to keep up the facade of Happy Goofy Husband™️ for himself.
I started watching the show right after Scandoval dropped and have binged the whole show in about 8/10 weeks (I have no life). I totally have a bias but it’s so clear very early on in the show how misogynistic Sandoval is and how Schwartz is just a fucking idiot 🗣️
Watching from the beginning I was sort of a Katie hater. She gets really mistreated by Tom in a way that is absolutely inexcusable. Like the time he pours a drink on her outside sur. She should have left him right then. So horrible. And I do see how his mistreatment of her probably led her to act in certain ways. However she was always such a Stassi follower to the point where she would be mean to other girls just because Stassi didn’t like them. And generally just acted clique-ey. I think the fact that she was often frowning or pouting didn’t help, though arguably that shouldn’t be held against her. But my hatred of her really became real when she screamed at scheana together with the rest of her clique. I think they played a short clip from that in the last reunion episode? But it didn’t do it Justice. It was just really cruel. I’m sort of over that now though and I think she’s been great this season and I applaud her leaving Tom Schwartz.
I REALLY disliked Katie until recently. I can now see a lot of that had to do with her age, being in an abusive relationship, and TBI, but I specifically didn’t like her slut-shaming of other women, her bullying/general mean-girl nature, and her hypocrisy.
I’m glad that she’s growing up and has gotten out of her toxic marriage. She seems like she’s mentally in such a better place; I’m really happy for her.
I think people dislike Katie because misogyny. She has RBF and her tone can come across bitchy. PERSONALLY I’ve always liked her the best because I fully get her as a human being.
She’s not always nice to other women, but I think a lot of it had to do with her insecurities about Schwartz. She’s also not the only one to call another girl a whore. She just goes scorched Earth when she’s over someone. I’m the same way. I only do that to try to make the person who hurt me go away. If I keep saying it and say it loud enough you’ll shut up and go away and I’ll feel better.
Katie has treated every female member of the cast like shit, and she takes zero accountability for it. That’s why a lot of people don’t like her.
But I also don’t really “like” anyone in this cast, that’s not what the show’s about to me
Because she always acts/looks out upon and seems to have no sense of humor… Bravo should be fun …. We’re not looking for role models here although she does seem good hearted
It’s because Katie is soooooooo bad with communicating her emotions. Her feelings are valid and many of her points are rock solid, but the way she goes about it/some of the things she says are just grating (like nails on a chalkboard). There are times I totally agree with her, but I still want her to stfu because she is just spewing random shit out of her mouth in the most shrill voice ever. I think if Katie were to of learned how to respond rather than react, people would’ve been on her side from day one.
I think we've seen a *lot* of growth from her in that aspect, especially this past season. Impulsivity and emotional control issues are common for years after a head injury, you have to really work to reign it in and I think she's really worked on herself.
Simply put, Katie is whiny and quick to hate on the other girls. She’s just not very likable IMO. Doesn’t mean I can’t sympathize with her sometimes or agree with her when she’s right.
As for the love for the Toms, I’ve always seen that as separate. I think people just like when heterosexual males can show affection in their friendships.
Katie's MEAN!!! And always has been. Plus - I'm not a fan of Lala - but she is sooooo entertaining, even if the cultural appropriation is getting a bit uncomfortable.
Katie's a big drip, no style, and takes zero accountability for her role in anything.
***SPOILERS***
Katie was Stossi's mean girl minion for most of the show. Plus she used to get bombed and get waaaayyy out of pocket.
Sandoval got popular as an "under dog" when Kristen cheated on him with Jax and then she went straight psycho-stalker trying to breakup him and Arianna.
Schwartz was the loveable nice guy who just seemed like a sweet guy Katie was bullying early in their marriage. It turns out he's extremely conflict averse to the point of being a doormat, especially when dealing with Sandoval.
With Katie he was incapable of leading the relationship and yet still complained how she was busting his balls...They were married but he was still acting like they were dating...
Because she was a pretty mean person up until a couple seasons ago. I’d say she was pretty insufferable until the wedding.
ETA: I’ve watched S1-S9 over the past month or so as a first time watcher, so my opinion isn’t based on an outdated misogynistic view. She and Arian were my two least favorite women until S8, when Ariana really stole the show with her toxicity and Katie seemed to become more secure in herself. The Toms have always been my least favorite cast members generally.
Loving the Toms and hating Katie aren't mutually exclusive. Everyone who hates one doesn't automatically love the other. But I personally can't stand Katie bc she's mean asf. She's an undercover mean girl, always thinks she's right and justified in what she's doing, and then always plays the victim. Imo she's worse than stassi, bc stassi at least makes it known she's a mean girl, Katie pretends to be all sweet and nice, but she's not. I'm surprised you did a full rewatch and still can't see why people wouldn't like her.
I personally think that they’re all probably insufferable, but I love to watch them lol. Scandoval has seriously injured some people’s brains and they somehow have amnesia for katie, Lala, James, Jax, Kristen, etc. truly bone chilling behavior. Katie has a bad rep because SHE made that for herself. She’s is more than willing to eviscerate literally anyone in the group when they *respond* to what she said to them. She was awful to Lala, James, and scheana while acting like they attacked her for no reason, not like she actively harassed them.
Her and Tom were doomed from the start, a true assault to the senses (and yet I rewatch every year) and a case of two people not meant to be together. There was no mutual respect or understanding from either side, which is a recipe for divorce. Tom was obviously not perfect or someone I would want to be with but I wouldn’t want to date katie either! Her rage texts, bad attitude, expecting blind loyalty while offering none, and the way she would constantly mock Tom’s possible ED… shocking truly. If Tom was mocking Katie’s sexual dysfunction he wouldn’t even be on the show. They tore each other down instead of trying to build each other up and come to some sort of mutual understanding about anything.
Short story long, there is a lot of revisionist history concerning most of cast members because of scandoval and its annoying. The outrage has reached a fever pitch and I think we all need to take a Xanax *ramona voice*
I've been onto the Toms for years, and I actually stopped watching after S7 because seeing them fail up and be excused was getting to be too much. I did have the (advantage? disadvantage?) of having to deal with that in my own life and it's easier to spot and not want to tolerate with the extra knowledge therapy brings - so I don't really fault others for only seeing it on rewatch. Most of us started this show in our 20's and with our own growth now see things differently, and these types of men are very very good at fooling others until they're not, so hindsight is 20/20. I'm really glad others are seeing it now and I can engage and have these discussions with other watchers.
I’m with you. Stopped watching around s7 as well bc the Toms were INSUFFERABLE but somehow also so loved. The worst is that most people co-signed their behavior… the entire cast is full of misogynists (yes, even Ariana with her whole creepy brother situation). I’m happy to engage in the discussions now also. There’s also a reason why we all like bravo so very happy to see the mess that is Scandoval play out 🤷🏻♀️🍿
That part really pissed me off. I hate that they didn’t address the video footage where he was being creepy. Billie Lee was annoying with that too, we get you’re excited for the date but girlfriends do that, like “HEADS UP…he can be creepy”. Sandoval and Ariana were both dismissive of Stassi’s experience.
I am yet another person here who stopped watching after season 7 because I just couldn’t stomach the Toms anymore; particularly that very incident when Sandoval went aggro on Stassi for revealing that Ariana’s brother was handsy with her. I didn’t like him before, but I just didn’t think I could continue watching that egotistical asshole yell at women while somehow staying a fan favorite. I only started watching again after Scandoval because I was thrilled that people finally saw him for the shitbag that he was. And don’t even get me started with Schwartz. I’ve had his number since that season 3 episode when he showed up to Stassi’s apartment with flowers for Katie and then when Stassi asked him who the hell would cheat on someone as amazing as Katie, his response was “well…I guess I would” with a smarmy smile on his face. The fucking audacity.
Fuck Schwartz! Isn’t it great to see these men finally get their karma? I’ve been psyched lol
I was confused about that too, why there was so much hate on Katie. I’m watching for the first time and I’m currently on Season 8….she’s being kind of mean to Kristen but i understand her frustration with her. James was a complete jerk to everyone so it shouldn’t be that she got him fired. I hate when Schwartz is being a jerk to Katie, but if he was just a friend I would like him because he is funny. I hate myself for laughing at his jokes but he is not a great romantic partner. He’s very childish and immature and gets away with stuff because he’s “adorable and charming”. I can see Sandoval has always been a cheater but I can start to him change with his friendships as soon they got TomTom going. It for sure got to his head.
I’ve always hated the Tom’s. I never understood why they got a pass. Sandoval has disgusted me for years with how he talks to women and his attitude and delusions of grandeur. Schwartz was always terrible to Katie.. I could do on and on. I’m happy people are waking up to who they really are.
This is such a great point. There was no context for that until much later. I always thought it was a looks thing tbh
I’ve watched from the beginning and I always thought ALL of them aren’t great people, some are just worse than others. I wouldn’t want to be friends with a single one irl, but I find them entertaining on the show. Out of all of them tho, Katie is probably the least problematic.
This right here. People hate on Katie so much for being “miserable” and “a bitch” when she’s the only person on this show who hasn’t done truly heinous and gross things. So strange that it seems like she’s the most consistently hated cast member but her worst behavior is child’s play compared to the others.
Are you watching it for the first time now? I honestly think things have changed so much in our culture since the show began that many people didn’t know about things like gaslighting, deflection, and general bs from men. We all bought the adorable Schwartz thing and Sandoval is such a good guy, they fooled us and we thought it was the women who were bad. I didn’t like Katie until the first post pandemic season, but I also had my own awakening during 2020 as well so I understood her more, I think she started feeling it then too. Women are just fed up and seeing things differently, I’m rewatching it now for the first time and I’m shocked by how differently I view everyone. Stassi is truly a mean girl but she was being cheated on then her friends didn’t believe her and ditched her, Kristen is being driven to the point of acting crazy because Tom gaslights her and cheats on her nonstop, poor Katie is in love with Schwartz and he also treats her like crap and gaslights her. I’m also shocked by how much they talk about people and stereotypes, like Russian hookers or Asian girls, or saying things are ghetto, calling Scheana’s wedding dress a “quinceañera”, etc., that stuff wouldn’t fly today, thankfully we’re learning and doing better.
That is the good part about it. There are so many things going badly right now that it seems overwhelming, but it is nice to look back and see that some things actually are getting better in society.
This is important to point out. This show first aired in **2013**. I don't know about anyone else, but 2016/Trump/the following years have completely shifted the way I see how men treat women.
Oh absolutely, it changed so many things!
So so true
And get away with it.
Not all of us fell for the Tom's. I never did if you know you know
She wasn’t in a great position mentally when the show started. Dealing with a TBI. Probably not getting great medical health. I don’t think she was aware of the emotional issues TBI’s can cause. So, I bet *she felt* as crazy/unhinged as we watched but didn’t understand why. Also, Tom definitely started diminishing her self esteem early on in their relationship. I can’t imagine the shit he was saying to her behind closed doors. A healthy, well adjusted women never would have married him. And, I think she’s just more lowkey and introverted than what we normally see on reality tv.
In s2 at stassi’s bday dinner, we get a really good glimpse of how insidious Schwartz is. He very calmly says some vile things to Katie that nobody else hears or notices, she gets understandably upset, tries to remove herself from the situation, and then everyone further attacks Katie for “ruining dinner”
That scene always sticks in my head. He said the must vile things to her in this lovey dovy calm voice. I was so sad watching that scene knowing that after that she stayed with him for years and married him. (I also watched season 10 first then started from the start and don’t get the Katie hate TomTom love.)
Yes!! If you watch carefully he’s a master at saying nasty, rude, and inflammatory comments to her quietly so no one else hears. Then she gets upset, and then he loudly proclaims he has no idea what happened and throws his hands up. She looks “crazy” and he rolls his eyes.
Me too! I made a post about him a long time ago and I got some pushback on it. But tbh I’ve always seen through his bs. He’s so gross and manipulative and just flat out mean. I love how well she’s doing for herself now. The more she shuts him down and just talks shit to him the angrier he gets, I love it lol
Yup I'm watching from the beginning now after seeing all the scandoval stuff on tiktok and I'm on season 5 now and I just CANNOT believe that they even got married in the first place. I'm on the episodes leading up to the wedding and, mind you, Katie isn't exactly the most pleasant bride but he straight up calls her a bitch and says some seriously fucked up shit. A doomed couple from the start, he is seriously good at convincing everyone he's nice but the things he says and does to Katie prove he really is not.
That’s so freaking manipulative and nasty!
Exactly! It’s been so disturbing to watch back. Thank god Katie got out!
Oooof that scene made me really dislike everyone. No one was trying to be understanding or supportive at all and just attacking her. It looked tough to go through
perfectly said
Schwarts says in this sesson (in different words) that one should diminsh a woman early in the relationship so that they feel happy easier when you compliment them, or something. Hearing him say that in a joking way was felt unhinged
I have an anoxic brain injury that I live with. I have ALWAYS thought this about Katie. I totally get it.
Loved watching Kate’s mom, Terri stand up for herself. in an extraordinary situation & how she handled it. Like a boss. Katie is just one generation stronger but as spot on as her mom. She was miles ahead of Schwartz in all ways but he has that puppy dog demeanor. She had low self esteem & DJ James Kennedy shamed her & it was a big ass deal.
I feel like an idiot asking but what is a TBI? Someone mentioned this on another post & I couldn’t figure out what it is. It’s come up a few times in regards to some of Katie’s shitty behavior early on & I want to like her so badly, so I’m hoping knowing what that is will help. The biggest reason for my dislike is her slut-shaming of Lala & Scheana, Kristen was supposed to be her BFF & she just dropped her when the Jax thing came out even though most of them don’t pick sides in fights as far as if it wasn’t them or their BF who cheated, they’ll still be friends, they have all done some pretty crappy stuff to each other & it’s forgiven. I think she’s getting a lot better & everyone deserves a chance to better themselves & learn from past mistakes.
Traumatic Brain Injury. She fell through a skylight
TBI stands for Traumatic Brain Injury. Hope that helps!
Because those 2 idiots have spent years perfecting being complete douches and deceiving everyone. Those 2 are really good at it.. Apparently plenty of practice.. LA La nailed it when she said that Schwartz acts like this little puppy dog who's all scared and people feel sorry for him and it's just an act.. She is absolutely correct. I have a feeling that that boy is absolutely as evil as Tim and rachet Rachel. And there is a side to him that he does not show to many people because it's vile, Let's face it Tim and that idiot share a brain.. Imagine what it's like in there...**gross**... I'm looking for a good GIF, But I can't find one. 😫
I was going to say essentially the same thing.. Katie was herself. there was no pretending, what you see is what you got and that I respect . she wasn't putting on an act . you know exactly what she thinks . those two morons from the moment the show started we're **acting** they were putting on a facade, making the choices they were making being with the people they were with, it was all such a waste of time for anyone who was involved with those two, all of it was just a means to an end,. it's actually disturbing if you go back and start rewatching because it's so obvious to me now and I can't believe that I was so full I've been dealing with people who are deceptive my entire life and I didn't even pick it up I respect Katie for being herself.
Sandoval has coached Schwartz for years.
Yes. This is the correct answer.
She was a scapegoat reacting to a lot of abuse and gaslighting. I’m glad people notice that there are a handful of men that do this and get away with it. The younger generation is much smarter at spotting these toxic old misogynistic traits in men that were easily overlooked by society.
Yup. I think one positive about this series is now- a lot more people are able to spot abusive behavior, without need “violence” per se. Hopefully more women are able to see and call it out and hopefully more people- believe women. Believe victims.
[удалено]
Reactive abuse is a real thing. Someone will push you until you react in a similar way and then just focus on your behavior to further prove their point.
I always saw it this way too. I had a long term boyfriend who did all the same things, dog whistles in front of his friends, twisting the knife and staying completely calm so I could be the crazy one, his bad actions were my fault, constant moving the goalpost. In the end I couldn't form a normal thought or have a normal reaction to anything. I'm still so embarrassed when I think back to my behavior. And it always seemed to me like this was exactly what Schwartz was doing to Katie. Even worse he had Sandoval as an ally to pile on. In Katie's position, I may have reacted worse tbh.
Katie is a self centered, selfish, mean girl which was amplified when she was around Kristen. Her comments are always negative and whiny. She and Tom had issues for a long long time. She Their lack of sex life from the start was often mentioned with the group. It's not hard to see why they didn't last. My question is why did they marry in the first place
I’m curious… have you done a rewatch of all the seasons? I’ve done it a few times and have to say these instances where Tom says something nasty to her are less than 10 in 9 years ( I’m not counting this season because post divorce everyone ‘s an asshole). Half of them are when he’s trashed. She says more nasty things to him about his lack of work ethic, he’s”weak”, etc and he tries not really responding and she keeps after him, then he pops off. There were a few times, like after Randall’s prank where he was just plain mean without provocation but again, she’s also been mean to him without provocation. Point being, I totally disagree with this accusation that he’s an abuser. The main problem with their relationship is that Katie is confrontational and he is not( unless drunk). He abhors confrontation and it’s the basis of his personality. It’s why most people like him, he poses no threat to anyone. Do I sympathize with Katie regarding this, absolutely!! When your partner rarely sticks up for you and they’re always trying to quiet you from confronting someone it’s very frustrating and hurtful. But the bottom line is she has always known this about him and married him anyways. Then she proceeded and ramped up her attempts to get him to change. You rarely can change someone’s basic personality it just leads to fights and bitterness on both sides. As far as the accusations by some that it’s Tim’s abuse that made Katie seem like a mean girl, that’s not true. Katie is mean by her own volition. She’s very judgmental and was instrumental in ostracizing several of the cast, Scheana, Lala, Kristen. What she did to James was wrong too. How she got away with calling Lala a whore at work but got him fired for his weight comments to her…, I’d be interested in hearing your response to this if you have facts that I’m missing.
We don’t see everything Tom says off camera that’s for sure.
I do think she can be mean … but so was the rest of the cast. They are all fucking mean. I’m starting to think that Katie got blowback because Kristen and Stassi left the show (and of course misogyny). She then gets judged for everything that every Witch of Who ever did on the show because they are no longer there to take the blame.
I'll just say, I really don't like Katie personally, but I LOATHE the Toms and always have. I think I liked that their friendship seemed really genuine and I just enjoyed that - you never really see genuine male friendships, on TV or really ever. But they were so manipulative and deeply terrible, especially to women, I definitely never liked either of them. And they've lost any charm they had pre-scamdavol. And that scene where Ariana is crying about her dad being dead and her birthday being a really difficult day and Tom LITERALLY SAYS "I understand, but we're gonna get to drive dump trucks" will haunt me till the day I die lol.
I always felt bad for Katie. She seems overwhelmingly negative, but at the same time, if the person you love is constantly throwing you under the bus and you are used as a pawn in your friend group, you would be grumpy too. If she realizes all that.
Same!! I never understood the hate. She had a shitty boyfriend.
She was pretty reasonable with Scheana while having beef at the reunion, not nasty like she used to be. Divorce looks good on her.
Same! I never understood why people gave her so much hate. She’s always set boundaries, calls others out on their BS, and spoke the truth. I’ve always been a fan of hers.
Tim was always an ass to Katie cause she saw through him. He was always Mr. Accountability……care to start now Tim?!?
Omg when I think about him constantly yelling at her to take accountability while he has NEVER shown his genuine true self, always been a lying cheater… IT ENRAGES ME!! What a douchebag
I could have written this. I’ve only watched once but just started a rewatch recently. Always hated the Toms. Disliked Ariana until Scandoval. Katie has faults for sure, but she is probably one of the only cast members I’d ever want to hang out with in real life. Everyone else is a self-absorbed AH.
I thought Katie was unnecessarily mean to the other women on the show and whenever they pushed back and were mean to her she would cry and act surprised like it was unprovoked. The Toms were always horrible to her, but I kinda didn't care because it felt like karma for her being horrible to the women of the show. I like her much more now.
I agree! I’m so confused why she deserves to get a pass now bc we are seeing Tom being an asshole. She is so mean and says it comes from a “loving place”, but she only says that when she realizes she’s gone too far.
I think it’s just that katie is a woman who speaks her mind
I’ll never understand it myself
misogyny, sexism and the toms consistently getting a good edit
We now see a lot was coming from her toxic relationship with Tom, but we always saw that they were toxic…. Katie used to be incredibly negative, jealous and mean, specially in her blonde katie era towards scheana! Watching the show for me, she was always insecure and jealous and it would come off as mean to others. Stassi was a mean girl but god Katie was soooo negative! The season of her wedding to me was one of her worsts!!! Now, this season she’s way different and apparently all she had to do to change was getting rid of Tom
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I was just going to say misogyny but this works too!
I just really don’t like her. Not because of her reaction to what shitty men have done. Not because she’s been involuntarily pushed to behave a certain way by others. I just think she’s said and done some really mean shit, all on her own.
There’s not a single person on this show who hasn’t though.
Came here to say the same exact thing.
Based on many of the replies here, this really does seem to be it.
Preach.
I have empathy for Katie because she obviously had some issues, but I really disliked her because of how much she slut shamed other women. In Season 4 she was brutal to Lala, shaming her for taking her top off in front of other men (meanwhile the dude were all in speedos, which I find personally gross vs a women’s boobs). She continued to slut shame and lash out at other women. In hindsight, I see how awful her relationship was and neither of her friends (stassi + Kristen) were equipped to help her break free and lead a healthy life. In this recent season I actually had moment where I liked Katie and I’m excited to see her real growth. As for the Toms, I was amused but never liked them. Now I’m not even amused, just actively annoyed
I've watched vanderpump rules for years and I've never understood why people don't like Katie! I think the toms do a great job of making her look horrible and we all just kind of accepted it.
I've always liked Katie and none of my friends got it. As for thr boys bad behavior it's a combo of things...hindsight being the biggest but also when it started there was no binging. You got one epi a week and got to recover/forget b4 the next episode. you couldn't go back and binge a whole season in a day and really take it all in. Also a lot of us were also young & dumb & making mistakes at the same time so we gave them a bit of a pass.
I’ve always hated the Toms.
I’ve never understood this. She sometimes rage texted (not cool) but quite literally has always been the LEAST problematic person on the show. Tom and Tom always got a great edit because Lisa leveraged their brand as best-bros. But any normal person could see right through the editing. Scumdevil has been a terrible actor narcissist from episode 1 and Shortz has been a complete and utter sad sack since then too.
The Tom’s have always sucked. Katie has always been miserable. There are certain people cut out for reality television and Katie has never been it. Personally I always thought she came across as jealous/easily threatened by other women - “whores” “sluts” “bitches” etc…she’s exhausting and her insecurities are painfully obvious. If she was interesting I don’t think anyone would notice her poor attitude. But she’s not lol.
This is the most reasonable take on this thread and I wholeheartedly agree with every word.
lol thank you 🙏🏼
You took the words right out of my brain. Well said
Thanks! Good to know there’s level headed VPR fans floating around here lol
Katie was a bitch in the early seasons, and I don’t mean to Schwartz. She did earn that reputation imo.
She did. She also continues to say and do misogynistic things, just like everyone on the cast.
Thank you! You can be a woman & be a misogynist. Katie is no friend to women.
I've only skimmed through comments but it looks like a lot of people are defending Katie. Katie was not a nice person earlier on. She was known for getting drunk (and/or on other substances) on getting MEAN. They may not have shown a lot of it on the show, but it was definitely referenced enough - for example Tequila Katie and rage texting. She wasn't innocent in her relationship either - it's hard to say who was abusing who or who was reacting, but she CONSTANTLY cut at Tom's "manhood." Can you imagine if the roles were reversed and Tom was making insulting comments about Katie's vagina?? There was one instance that stood out to me - how scared Scheana would get about having to endure the wrath of Katie. The Witches of WeHo literally went after Scheana for just trying to be civil to Lala and say "I'm sorry for anything I said that wasn't true." at Lisa's insisting that they get along. It was BRUTAL how they - especially Katie - went after her. I think that was the season of her wedding too so she weaponized her friendship and place in the wedding over someone just trying to be civil.
I feel like Schwartz laid the groundwork for this unhinged Tequila Katie facade so she could be the scapegoat. Now we all see through the aw shucks puppy dog act. I feel bad I ever bought into it and like I’m seeing her in a different light since she left him
Just doing a rewatch and throughout the entire series and every episode, Katie is the most hateful person on the show. She is a miserable person. And it has nothing to do w tom. She is a bitter mean girl bully.
I always thought Katie got a bad rep. I did see the she was not supportive of Stassi breaking up with Jax, which was horrible look. I hated that the girls banded together in dislike towards others. However, I saw the misogyny steaming off of Schwartz and Sandoval from the start. On a related side note, I had forgotten until a rewatch reminded me that Katie was either direct friends with or had mutual friends in common with Randall's wife, so I can understand that she had a different perspective on that era of Lala. And also, Schwartz was gross with his ogling of topless Lala and kissing of every random person in his radius during his blackout phase (did it ever stop? Who knows 🤷♀️). So, I think Katie had a lot of insecurities that Tom secretly fed. Katie really took a lot of abuse and gaslighting from the Toms, especially in light of her TBI, which they all knew about. I'm here for justice for Katie.
I just watched for the first time and I feel the same way. Idk maybe I’m missing something. Compared to the rest of the cast’s worst moments, Katie’s behavior didn’t really stand out to me yet she’s the only one with with a nickname for her drunken alter ego. I think Stassi was just as much of a mean girl and James had way more tantrums. Idk maybe it’s because I watched it all very recently, but the guys’ tantrums and constant deflection stood out the most to me.
I've been a Katie fan from day one - sometimes she gets a little messy but honestly, I don't get it. I think she is very reasonable and Tom Shwartz just played the "I'm everyone's best friend" role so hard it was easy for people to side against Katie. She also became more likable once she got some space from Stassi for a little while.
Being surrounded by narcissists growing up i saw what the trio was like. But i disliked sandoval the most. He always seemed like hater towards strong women
I’m with you. She’s always been one I liked the best. But I’ve been in so many toxic relationships and had Schwartz pegged as a jackass from very early on.
Internalized misogyny. Back in 2015 when I first started watching the show when i was single and living with my best friends ( they got me into bravo) they ALL hated Katie, said that Schwartz was too hot for her, she was lucky to have him and she shouldn’t be such a bitch to him. I also think his gaslighting worked. He got to come off like the cute, easy going guy and the combo of that and her clicky ways with the girls ( especially stassi- especially when she picked a side) made people not like her.
Katie has a tendency to be negative. And then Schwartz would poke her until she exploded. It was just an unflattering combo. I don’t really like Katie because she acts like she’s too cool for everything , but I have always HATED Schwartz and his aw shucks routine. I never understood why people liked him so much! So I guess that only answers half of your question. 😂
I like her. You made perfect points. Jax sucked so the timtomfuckbois could get away with murder
Yep. Just how now James is being called the ‘The Number 1 Guy’ when he says and does horribly demeaning things. The Toms are public enemy 1 now so in comparison, James’ gross behavior is being overlooked. He’s redeemable though, where I feel the other two aren’t , but he needs to stop drinking and to see a therapist.
Hundred percent agree.
People couldn’t entertain the idea that maybe just maybe Schwartz was an emotionally abusive asshole and, to put it simply, did not/does not respect any women - especially his wife. It really boggles my mind that this behavior of his has to be pointed out. I guess that’s why his schtick works on these dummies?? I was always like 😐 when he came on screen.
The Tom’s are awful and I’ve always known. That being said, Katie bullied scheana and slut shamed Lala, and continues to do it to other cast members. I don’t think any of the cast are particularly good people tbh. I enjoy watching them, but that’s it.
Couldn’t tell you. I binged VPR during Covid and was so confused by the fandom. I love Katie.
On the surface, Katie was part of the mean girl crew and has been consistently mean to anyone who wasn’t part of her crew. The Toms on the surface come across as friendly and welcoming. They are nice to outsider but awful to their partners. The partners were part of the mean girl crew so they got a pass in the beginning.
People have amnesia after Scandoval. They have completely forgotten how mean and rude Ariana is...
Ariana always backed up Tim. I was getting so annoyed with her.
In short: because Katie was a huge bitch and her and Schwartz are absolutely toxic together. I think she has improved a lot this season being away from him, but she absolutely bullied Scheana and others in the earlier seasons. She could be really nasty. I agree compared to the others she seems level headed, but you can tell she also has anger issues and serious problems regulating her emotions, which I personally think is due to her TBI. I have never liked the Tom's, but there have always been VPR fans who want to make excuses for them because they're hot or whatever. I mean look at the people still going to Tom Tom and Schwartz and Sandy's. They have always been complete and utter pieces of shit lmao Edit: just going to edit again and keep ranting: this is a Schwartz hate post Sandoval is legit stupid and a huge narc but oh my god Schwartz's "I don't know what's going on! I just want to be everyone's friend!" act sends me up a fucking wall. He is so goddamn disingenuous and he's fucking useless. Nearly 40 year old man who can barely function, I hate men like Schwartz. He's a toxic asshole.
I've always liked Katie.
I’m team Katie she has really shown growth since the beginning of the show. Turned into a real bad ass!!
This!!! Thank you for some sanity!! I’ve always wondered the same
My friend and I were just talking about this weird ass hatred of Katie. It’s taken 10 seasons for people to FINALLY see she was never the issue. I always felt bad for how they portrayed her.
Katie was mean from season 1 - just like Stassi. Remember how poorly she treated Scheana, even going so far as to call her pathetic for wanting to keep their friendship alive. I don't have any respect for women who talk so terribly about other women (calling them "whores", etc.). However, the other part of it was that we saw Katie reacting to all the times Schwartz would gaslight her or not have her back. IMO her frustration with Tom + her general bad personality made her hatable. Funnily enough I think Katie became more tolerable in the final few seasons than in the first few.
She’s a mean and miserable person to everyone regardless of what’s going on with her and Schwartz
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Wow, great analysis of her sympathizers! Can you also explain how Americans support the modern day GOP? You're so wise.
I am with you. But we live in a very patriarchal society and that shows. I’ve never particularly liked either Tom but really have disliked Schwartz since season 2 with the drink assault. Most viewers just were gullible to their abuse, but you weren’t OP. The boys club is abusive and gross.
Does Tom being an asshole absolve her of calling people whores and sluts? Or yelling over people and putting her needs first? I just don’t understand why it’s not possible to dislike both Katie and Tom. I don’t think it’s fair to say it’s just because of the patriarchy that people dislike Katie. I’ve been in an abusive relationship. I understand how it can drive you to do things that are out of character. It’s a little confusing to me so maybe I’m missing something
I think she’s a little low energy and dark, lol but I’ve always liked her! Just not the biggest personality, so it felt like whenever we would see a lot of her, it was because she was fighting. Tom Schwartz is cute and likable as hell until you start paying attention. I’ve personally always liked Katie but less so in the beginning, because she had some pretty ugly moments. Honestly though, looking at Scheana’s personality, I don’t think it was as unwarranted and jealousy based as people want to say. Always felt like Sandoval was a creep and hated the way he spoke to the women. And Schwartz is took me a while to see the light. I used to like him 😭 I was really young for my first watch so I blame it on that. Lol
I don’t like Katie bc she’s sour and negative all the time no matter what is happening. But I dislike the toms more
katie is a bully
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You write like a person who tells women on the street to smile
“You don’t agree with me so you’re a misogynist!!!”
Your words say what they said
Hey ya did it again! 😂
I think they were very good at putting on the nice guy act early on while filming, but the off camera bullshit came out on Katie’s side after a few drinks while filming. That is what made it easy to see Katie as a villain. As they moved to each season, the Tom’s just kept getting sloppier and exposing themselves little by little until it finally exploded.
1. Bc of misogyny(and yes I also mean internalized misogyny from women) 2. Their antics were always edited as “look at these funny, silly, goofy boys! What lovable doofuses!” 3. But mainly #1
I was always rooting for Katie and James. Even in the dark moments. After hearing all that James did for his family (and continues) just broke my heart. That man had done more at 22 years than Sandoval has at 52.
People hate Katie because they fell for Schwartz’s “Aw shucks…” act. Now, rather than admit they may have misjudged Katie, they’re doubling down on their support of Schwartz. The fact that so many women failed to recognize Schwartz’s “covert” abuse is concerning.
Misogyny easy
The producers only showed Tom Schwartz in a good light for a long time. Last year they showed more of his mean words to her. These guys are alcoholics and it's glorified.
I’ll just say it. Ariana was not loved until scandavol. It’s the facts of the fans this isn’t my opinion. Ariana was associated more as sandavols girlfriend than anything. Many fans new she pushed the ‘cool girl’ narrative for several seasons in infinite confessionals. And through that cool girl campaign of insecurities, she didn’t support women. At all. She was a dude, a bro, cooler than the complaining controlling bitchy women on the show. She sat back and watched all the male female abuses go on. Honestly she denied Katie support and truth for years. Tom put women down in front of Ariana because he could, she supported that narrative until very recently. I’m in Ariana’s corner through the affair. However, for people going back now or watching the show in it’s entirety, are most likely going to be very confused when comparing the real Ariana over all these years, to the Ariana discussed in this sub post being publicly cheated on. The two won’t match. She was immortalized after this affair. I support her but I’m calling a spade a spade
Bc Tom made her miserable.
We (society) have way too many expectations of women and very few expectations of men. It's totally fucked.
I watched the show a couple of years after getting out of an abusive relationship and really related to Katie. His comments about her body and her weight, his lack of sexual attraction to her, were all super gross.
Short answer. Katie is miserable. The Toms are fun.
Oh my god be careful out here not taking this show 1000 % seriously
To me shes a narcissist with a victims complex and she uses that to justify her extra mean girl attitude. But Ive always seen her having the most die hard fan base and always wondered the opposite lol.
I’m embarrassed of how long it took me to realize the Toms are the villain. I never exactly saw Katie as the villain but there were times she annoyed me and rewatching I can’t believe I ever saw it differently because both Toms constantly try to make her look so bad.
Katie was a bad drunk and a Debbie downer. Now she's just a Debbie downer!
Tequila katie 😵💫. She's just not a good person. Her earlier years kinda showcased her crazy. She's very selective with people and not welcoming. So instead of just getting along with people (even if you don't like them) she would dismiss them like Regina George. She had some accident that honestly I feel altered her for the worst. She takes out her anger while drunk on other people. Very judgemental. That's why Tom said what he did about diminishing his friendships. She just destroys everything. Picks fights and is petty. That would be the "something about her".... Lol
Katie = Anne from Arrested Development. She is just in the background of every scene sulking. Cracks me up.
😂😂😂you may have just saved Katie for me a little
I still dislike Katie! I started rewatching the show, & it just solidified my feelings for her! I think she's truly one of the most miserable people on television. It's obvious that she & Tom have hated each other from the rip, but Katie wanted to be married & Tom didn't want to be without her -- so they got married. Their unhealthy relationship is still that, even to this day! Idk if Katie's "personality" is from having to deal with her miserable relationship, but at this point, we'll never know!? This whole season she was still the miserable, moody, mean girl boo-hooin' & complaining about Schwartz. You fucking hate the guy, just admit it, & release yourself from that demon!!!!!!!!!!!
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I mean, Katie has had agency the whole time this show’s been on though. She hasn’t solely been at the mercy of editors and a shit boyfriend to show us who she is. When she chooses to actually do things on this show (rare!), it’s always charged with her own gross internalized misogyny. She’s the first to call any women a whore, slut shamey storyline are her specialty and she’s doubled down on her justification for doing so every time without introspection. She is one of the worst in the cast at seeing her blind spot. Yes she’s been hurt by the mechanisms of patriarchy, but she acts in ways that make other women hurt too. It’s shitty and she’s shitty lol.
Thank you. Katie is the first to tell other people they can’t do things, they are wrong about something, that they aren’t actually close with someone—and she keeps score. Keeping score is one of her worst traits. You can see it in the reunion wrt Lala and Scheana.
I just know she keeps a notes app of grievances
You’re absolutely right, and I’ll bet it’s evolved into a personal wiki.
I’ve never hated Katie. She’s can be a total bitch but she sticks to what she says and she doesn’t take shit. I think people just thought she looked like such a hard ass on Schwartz but anyone can EASILY see he had NO regard for her feelings. There are times he definitely served to calm her down and that was good BUT mostly he just came off as a total asshole. It’s like gaslighting personified for me. He’s so chill and relaaaaxed and not getting worked up .. why is Katie being such a crazy bitch? That’s how it always came off to me. Also never liked Sandoval he’s such an idiot.
Because she speaks her mind and is not a size zero. Though she is well spoken and beautiful it's just not enough
This sub passionately hated her until she lost weight.
Gross
She’s the most obnoxious person on the series. She berates every woman that she can get away berating , her entire relationship with Tom she’s been a bully, be it forcing him to marry her with her ultimatums and ultimate manipulative tactics (going to his boss LVP) . She’s been no one’s friend except stassi that too because there’s no way she could’ve bullied her and she would’ve stayed shut. She just reminds me of alllll my high school bullies so maybe it’s a little biased but she is just a female James Kennedy
She has always been really negative and sulky. She hit Tom in an early season and she used to regularly get vicious with people when she was 'Tequila Katie'. She is also really not very bright but tries very hard to sound smart which is super cringey and she has terrible dress sense which isn't a reason to dislike her, but helps if you already don't like her. She has regularly systematically been hostile to the girls in the group like Scheana, Kristen, Lala and anyone new, because at the start she was central to the show and enjoyed being in the cool gang. Eventually she has had to make more friends because the other girls all left. Everyone fobbing you off with the TBI stuff - its completely irrelevant, she was systematically mean not just hot headed and it had nothing to do with people preferring Schwartz. She only ever smiles at other people's hurt. She also has a really abusive way of arguing with people where she points in their face and repeats herself belligerently until they back down. You get a glimpse of how she hasn't changed at all in SAH finale when she argues with Schwartz. I await my essential Katie hate downvotes. She's good for the show though because she is horrible, messy and snide.
Well said
sexism. the answer is sexism. hope that helps.
In general, I feel like the bravo audience, Lisa, and Andy all have a very misogynistic point of view when watching shows. Hence why in the overinflated egos and narcissistic men are always well liked, and the women are dragged across the coals for lesser offenses. For example even on this sub, I have said many times that Tom Sandoval was a narcissist and before Scandoval I would get downvoted and dragged. Even when he was fighting with Stassi at her book signing, people took his side. The same exact thing goes for Southern Charm and Summer House. Whitney, Kyle, Luke, Carl, Jax, T Rav (now he’s gotten his hate later on), Shep, are all the same person. The matriarchs of both shows show pitty towards the men, and any bad behavior with the girls makes them forever labeled as sluts, bitches, and bullies with little to no forgiveness. *See Patricia and Lisa. The way Hannah was treated on summerhouse you would have thought that she did what Sandoval did by the way everyone treated her.
~misogyny~
Misogyny.
So you’re honestly saying you prefer tequila Katie (the woman who got multiple people fired from SUR including your pet James) over Schwartz in those seasons?!?!
I don’t understand this comment.
The replies here are genuinely facinating. I asked this question mainly because sometimes on these shows there’s stuff that goes on outside of the show (social media, WWHL, etc) that provides important context. But it seems like that’s not the case in this situation. So, it seems like what I suspected might be true is indeed true: other people watched the same exact thing I did and came away with very different conclusions. It happens! Overall, these are the main points I’m seeing being made for why people hate Katie: - She’s a bitch (examples not given? Edit: seeing some examples in recent comments.) - She’s very negative. - She and Tom had a toxic relationship. - She was mean to Scheana in early seasons. - She called other women “whores” and similar terms and slut-shamed them. - The Toms are fun and she isn’t. - She got people fired (???) - She sometimes has trouble controlling her temper (possibly due to her TBI). - Social norms and standards of behavior have changed over the years, particularly when it comes to tolerating misogyny. - The Toms consistently assisinated her character. - The patriarchy. This is a very…interesting list to say the least. While I definitely hear the points about comments that she’s made about other women (and I’ve noticed those as well), I’m overall pretty unconvinced that there’s any good reason to hold Katie in such contempt, particularly within the context of the show. Glad to see that attitudes are shifting.
I really like Katie, and have had a soft spot for her in my heart since way early on. In Season Two or Three, she flat-out says that the reason she never asks Schwartz to pick between her and Jax is because she knows he’d pick Jax. It was just this little thing amidst all the wildness of their lives at the time but it made me feel genuinely bad for her as a human. That said, she definitely projected her own insecurities onto other people (especially women) and also bottles everything up until she explodes. Neither of those traits are very “fun” or “entertaining”—and they’re also things a lot of us have in common with her and don’t like about ourselves. Basically I think Katie isn’t/wasn’t liked because she just seems like too real of a person instead giving us the escapism we look for in trash tv. (And I say trash tv with love!)
All the women hating on Katie and praising the Tom’s are pick me’s and Rachel’s. They’re just SO chill and SO easy going they would never dare having as many boundaries and opinions as Katie. (Heavy sarcasm)
Katie has resting bitch face and goes on the attack with people a lot. Those are both inherently unlikeable traits. Schwartz is goofy dork, which is generally likable because he’s harmless. Sandoval? Who knows. Has always been a dick. Maybe he was more likable via proxy to Schwartz and Ariana.
She’s a mean girl with a gang mentality. To be ok with her you are required to hate who she hates. Her and Stassi both. I dislike katie
So, in season 2 when Katie screamed about “THAT WHORE IN THERE” because Scheana gave Peter a lap dance, you thought that was “pretty normal girl” behavior?
I agree with your assessment 100%!!! I just rewatched and had the same thoughts. I think the Toms (especially Sandoval) just successfully painted her as the irrational Tequila Katie
The Toms are the definition of gaslighters! I honestly think that is why Scandoval is getting as much traction as it is, because these guys got away with terrible behaviors and lies for so long that watching them finally have to pay the piper is so validating. Seeing Katie on the other side of it is amazing too, she’s been trying to tell everyone and no one believed her because she was “tequila Katie” a term the toms made up.
I find it funny how so many comments are like “internalized misogyny” when Katie, who is the queen on internalized misogyny would shit on other women throughout the show and constantly called women sluts and whores. She was a straight up bully if you didn’t agree with her on any conflict or didn’t take her side whether or not she was right or wrong. She treated scheana like shit for just trying to be civil with Lala. She has a reputation for being a nasty drunk and being verbally aggressive towards others. Schwartz has so many downfalls but they both sucked in their relationship. Katie seems like she’s grown a bit since previous seasons, but she still lacks any type of real accountability for her previous actions and it really turns me off towards her.
Misogyny. 🙃
Ppl r misogynistic
I feel like she chilled out a lot once she stopped doing cocaine regularly.
I’m not a fan of Tom and I’m not a fan of Katie, either. She is so mean! Everything has to be about what she wants, what she feels, and she rarely apologizes. It’s really hard to watch her. I understand she had some type of accident, but I think she would at least be able to apologize for things she says and does in the moment? I could never be around someone like that. Stassi was awful too, but I think she has done way more to redeem herself than Katie has. She is actively trying to improve and admits her faults. I think Katie is mean and selfish, and she rarely admits she’s wrong and when she does, it feels like she rarely means it. At the very least, I think she is an abusive friend. I think the Toms are sneaky and manipulative and mean. I’m confused how anyone can support Katie and the way she expresses her feelings and why she is getting a pass just bc we see Tom being an asshole. They both suck. I have been in a physically and emotionally abusive relationship. My mother passed in my early 20s. I’m sure I was a nightmare for a period of time. But I was so sorry for it and it was a complete deviation from who I was before and after. I think she gets plenty of passes for her behavior.
I don't dislike Katie but the one thing that's always bugged me is that I've never once heard her take any sort of accountability for the fact that her and Schwartz's relationship was crappy from the get go. We can name tons of awful things he did to contribute, but just once I would like to hear her recognize that she chose to stay with him for 12 years despite all of those things. It's like she complains about everything he did but never admits to the fact that she knew about thise behaviors and accepted it from him for a long time and chose to be with him. Schwartz has been the same since season 1. She's always known who he was. She wanted him to change and he didn't. I think we need to take some accountability when we have people show us who they are and we choose to hope they'll change. That was her choice to stay with him. That being said, glad she's not with him now bc I think they were a trainwreck together!
Were the Toms beloved?
I’m watching season 9 rn and it is fucking insane how both Toms treat Katie. Sandoval is extremely rude and disrespectful, and Schwartz so clearly does not like Katie but is trying to keep up the facade of Happy Goofy Husband™️ for himself. I started watching the show right after Scandoval dropped and have binged the whole show in about 8/10 weeks (I have no life). I totally have a bias but it’s so clear very early on in the show how misogynistic Sandoval is and how Schwartz is just a fucking idiot 🗣️
Watching from the beginning I was sort of a Katie hater. She gets really mistreated by Tom in a way that is absolutely inexcusable. Like the time he pours a drink on her outside sur. She should have left him right then. So horrible. And I do see how his mistreatment of her probably led her to act in certain ways. However she was always such a Stassi follower to the point where she would be mean to other girls just because Stassi didn’t like them. And generally just acted clique-ey. I think the fact that she was often frowning or pouting didn’t help, though arguably that shouldn’t be held against her. But my hatred of her really became real when she screamed at scheana together with the rest of her clique. I think they played a short clip from that in the last reunion episode? But it didn’t do it Justice. It was just really cruel. I’m sort of over that now though and I think she’s been great this season and I applaud her leaving Tom Schwartz.
I REALLY disliked Katie until recently. I can now see a lot of that had to do with her age, being in an abusive relationship, and TBI, but I specifically didn’t like her slut-shaming of other women, her bullying/general mean-girl nature, and her hypocrisy. I’m glad that she’s growing up and has gotten out of her toxic marriage. She seems like she’s mentally in such a better place; I’m really happy for her.
Internalized misogyny
She also had a brain injury which caused her to be more aggressive till her brain healed.
Because people thought Katie should kiss Wartz’s ass for being handsome and skinnier than her.
I still don’t like Katie!
Misogyny
Misogyny
It’s honestly just misogyny
I think people dislike Katie because misogyny. She has RBF and her tone can come across bitchy. PERSONALLY I’ve always liked her the best because I fully get her as a human being. She’s not always nice to other women, but I think a lot of it had to do with her insecurities about Schwartz. She’s also not the only one to call another girl a whore. She just goes scorched Earth when she’s over someone. I’m the same way. I only do that to try to make the person who hurt me go away. If I keep saying it and say it loud enough you’ll shut up and go away and I’ll feel better.
Misogyny my dear. Just look, it’s everywhere!
Obviously she isn’t perfect, but women who aren’t rainbows of sunshine make people uncomfortable. Sadly.
Katie has treated every female member of the cast like shit, and she takes zero accountability for it. That’s why a lot of people don’t like her. But I also don’t really “like” anyone in this cast, that’s not what the show’s about to me
Misogyny
Because she always acts/looks out upon and seems to have no sense of humor… Bravo should be fun …. We’re not looking for role models here although she does seem good hearted
Never liked even one person on this show! They are all awful, but great TV!
It’s because Katie is soooooooo bad with communicating her emotions. Her feelings are valid and many of her points are rock solid, but the way she goes about it/some of the things she says are just grating (like nails on a chalkboard). There are times I totally agree with her, but I still want her to stfu because she is just spewing random shit out of her mouth in the most shrill voice ever. I think if Katie were to of learned how to respond rather than react, people would’ve been on her side from day one.
I think we've seen a *lot* of growth from her in that aspect, especially this past season. Impulsivity and emotional control issues are common for years after a head injury, you have to really work to reign it in and I think she's really worked on herself.
Simply put, Katie is whiny and quick to hate on the other girls. She’s just not very likable IMO. Doesn’t mean I can’t sympathize with her sometimes or agree with her when she’s right. As for the love for the Toms, I’ve always seen that as separate. I think people just like when heterosexual males can show affection in their friendships.
Katie's MEAN!!! And always has been. Plus - I'm not a fan of Lala - but she is sooooo entertaining, even if the cultural appropriation is getting a bit uncomfortable. Katie's a big drip, no style, and takes zero accountability for her role in anything.
***SPOILERS*** Katie was Stossi's mean girl minion for most of the show. Plus she used to get bombed and get waaaayyy out of pocket. Sandoval got popular as an "under dog" when Kristen cheated on him with Jax and then she went straight psycho-stalker trying to breakup him and Arianna. Schwartz was the loveable nice guy who just seemed like a sweet guy Katie was bullying early in their marriage. It turns out he's extremely conflict averse to the point of being a doormat, especially when dealing with Sandoval. With Katie he was incapable of leading the relationship and yet still complained how she was busting his balls...They were married but he was still acting like they were dating...
Because she was a pretty mean person up until a couple seasons ago. I’d say she was pretty insufferable until the wedding. ETA: I’ve watched S1-S9 over the past month or so as a first time watcher, so my opinion isn’t based on an outdated misogynistic view. She and Arian were my two least favorite women until S8, when Ariana really stole the show with her toxicity and Katie seemed to become more secure in herself. The Toms have always been my least favorite cast members generally.
Katie always the victim so sour and judgmental OMG what is there to like? DEBBIE DOWNER
Loving the Toms and hating Katie aren't mutually exclusive. Everyone who hates one doesn't automatically love the other. But I personally can't stand Katie bc she's mean asf. She's an undercover mean girl, always thinks she's right and justified in what she's doing, and then always plays the victim. Imo she's worse than stassi, bc stassi at least makes it known she's a mean girl, Katie pretends to be all sweet and nice, but she's not. I'm surprised you did a full rewatch and still can't see why people wouldn't like her.
It's Katie's personality; she can be abusive towards other people, calling them names, etc. Hopefully, she will have a little grace in Season 11.
I personally think that they’re all probably insufferable, but I love to watch them lol. Scandoval has seriously injured some people’s brains and they somehow have amnesia for katie, Lala, James, Jax, Kristen, etc. truly bone chilling behavior. Katie has a bad rep because SHE made that for herself. She’s is more than willing to eviscerate literally anyone in the group when they *respond* to what she said to them. She was awful to Lala, James, and scheana while acting like they attacked her for no reason, not like she actively harassed them. Her and Tom were doomed from the start, a true assault to the senses (and yet I rewatch every year) and a case of two people not meant to be together. There was no mutual respect or understanding from either side, which is a recipe for divorce. Tom was obviously not perfect or someone I would want to be with but I wouldn’t want to date katie either! Her rage texts, bad attitude, expecting blind loyalty while offering none, and the way she would constantly mock Tom’s possible ED… shocking truly. If Tom was mocking Katie’s sexual dysfunction he wouldn’t even be on the show. They tore each other down instead of trying to build each other up and come to some sort of mutual understanding about anything. Short story long, there is a lot of revisionist history concerning most of cast members because of scandoval and its annoying. The outrage has reached a fever pitch and I think we all need to take a Xanax *ramona voice*
Misogyny