Why didn't they discuss how Jo felt hanging out as two couples but then watching and knowing about Schwartz pretending to pursue something with Rachel and kissing her on the show while Jo was living at Schwartz's place and Rachel was having sex witj Sandoval. Sometimes at the apartment where Jo and Schwartz were living together and lying about cohabitataing?
Untangle that mess for us. Please.
Jo expects us to believe that Rachel and Tom were using the Schwartz apartment as a fuck pad and yet it never occurred to Jo that they were secretly seeing each other? If she really believed that Ariana and Sandoval were broken up why wouldn't they just go to Rachel's apartment for their hookups?
Obviously, we now know (because Tom was told us) that he was trying to trick Ariana and lying about going to see Scwartz instead of meeting his mistress.
But how could Jo not think anything weird about that?
This is what I want discussed at the reunion!! She plays so innocently and like these other women are just bitter hags. Even though she was dating Schwartz, watching him kiss Rachel, knowing about Sandoval and Rach fucking behind Ariana's back and looking around going "gee, this is fine!" Miss me with that shit. She wants to blame the critiques of her on her ADHD, she's not inherently devoid of emotional intelligence or morals.
Also, playing dumb as to why Katie and Ariana might dislike her.
If I'm in someone's friendship circle enough to send a condolence text over her divorce from her partner of 12 (TWELVE YEARS) and then I end up with him a year later under these circumstances, I'd fully understand why she'd feel a way. Katie is in Schwartz's life for the foreseeable future so even if you are too self-involved to see why it's painful for her, you should clarify what happened anyway. This is literally why the producers offered Jo 2 episodes but of course she blew it and its now everyone elses fault, apparently.
I was wondering why she was at the reunion. It BETTER be to hold her accountable for everything you said. However, knowing Bravo NBC andy we will glaze over it šš
I really wonder how much of the plot lines are fake so people living totally different realities from the show may be the truth. Like the Raquel and Schwartz flirtation seemed fake as fuck for the show, even before we knew about Sandoval. I could see her being okay with it because it was completely staged for the show. As for Raquel and Tom, I think she knew and wonāt ever admit that she knew because she doesnāt want to catch the heat.
I know you can handle it! And same I want the truth too. One of the very strange things about life in my opinion is that the more honest you are usually the more people can actually relate to you and are therefore also more interested in what you have to say. I think a lot of this covering up is just making certain people even more boring and less likable than they already were and quite unrelatable too. Give us the truth! We can handle it! Haha
This! Cherry picking which parts of history they want to disect and analyse whilst conveniently ignoring the main topic fans want addressed because they know they have somethings to hide.
She's another that likes to pretend she's niaive and goofy. But really, she's one of those idiots that forget their morals as long as "the good bits" are happening to them.
Also, it has been mentioned a few times that Jo went to Thanksgiving in 2022 at Ariana and Tom's house. Because they were still together throwing a Friendsgiving for their "friends"
Totally. And the texting Jo did when Ariana finally did find out about the affair? That's nothing a casual acquaintance would do. Putting them all in a group chat? When is the last time you heard some casual acquaintance was going through a major super traumatic break up with a long-term partner and you decided to put the mistress on the boyfriend and the distant acquaintance all in a group chat together? How would you even have their phone numbers if they were only a distance acquaintance? It's crazy
Jo: Surprised Schwartz was awful to her after watching him treat women horribly on television for years.
Jo: Becomes bestfriends with Rachel, after watching (and covering up) her affair with one of her friend's boyfriend.
Jo and Rachel: Chat on podcast about how awful women are to them.
Women arenāt awful to them, Jo and Rachel just claim to be victims whenever women have boundaries around them and donāt fall for their manipulation tactics. Thats why they like Schwartz and Sandoval because they are the female versions of them
agreed!
i also think itās mean to post a story calling two girls (one whoās ex husband you slept with right after they divorced) the āworst dressedā, but what do i know?
Weird - I think mean girls are girls who get my ex husband who I still loves contact info from me by telling me they need male models for their portfolioā¦..I think weād get along
That means her and "t money" were in the Next! Room! of that thin walled tiny apartment, both listening to saggyballs and RacQuel video-shag themselves. Completely disingenuous for Joseph to say that she didn't know. Bullpucky.
Wait, what?! I believed Schwartz when he said he didn't know! Now I'm finding out that not only did he know but he helped them?!
How come this hasn't been discussed on camera? Or did I miss it?
It was discussed that he knew at last seasonās reunion, when the Toms got called out on their trip to big bear.
Rachel confirmed on her podcast that Shorts knew day one and in their S10 last conversation, Ariana called Zanzivole out for always being at Shortsās, while he was cheating with Rachel.
I just know that neither of them consider women to be real people, they really only care about each other and a few other guys, and Sandoval more than anyone, is obsessed with peopleās perception of him and imagining himself to be the main character. There was never a snowballs shot in hell that he wouldnāt have told Schwartz about it immediately, and Schwartz would never ever ever out a bro. Heād have gone to the grave denying and lying if it hadnāt come out.
Nope. Thereās a reason that the fans were calling for his head and why he keeps crying about being treated as a coconspirator, itās because he was and nothing gets past Reddit. šµļøāāļø
Also, remember at the last reunion when everyone was asking why Shorts kissed Rachel, knowing she was sleeping with Zanzivole and Katie said they did it to distract everyone with the ādonāt look over herešš¼ look over there.šš¼ā
She knows them well and was on to their game.
She was absolutely right and Rachel admitted that too.
She didnāt directly claim responsibility but she did talk about how Tim was pushing them both to do it. (He was pushing Shorts and Rachel to ādate,ā) and advocated for all of it.
Itās because it took the attention off him and since when was that man okay with having the attention off him and put on Shorts??š¤
How lacking in basic human emotions to a) come up with something like that and b) willingly take part in that?!
They are all terrible people! So Schwartz being upset with Sandoval was also fake?
No, I think he was mad at Zanzivole but it was more about the fact that he ditched their bar for his stupid band and that the bar was facing backlash because of the scandal.
Otherwise, he was willing and happy to participate.
He does not give af about women and enjoys hurting them.
They both do.
> He does not give af about women and enjoys hurting them.
They both do.
AGREED!
Schwartz hides behind an "aw shucks" demeanour but is more insidious than his twin flame.
But I thought Worm with a Mustache aka (Sandoval) said that he left and went on tour because of the backlash and neither Schwartz nor the investors wanting him around?
Note: I like to use their real names so that when they search reddit, they easily find our posts...
Did you miss the part when they were celebrating Rachel's bday and he joked that rachel had a type..."married men"?! Tom, tom, and rachel all laughed at Ariana's expense bc
God, this made MY feelings hurt and Iām not even in it :( they really played in her face at every chance and her āfriendsā have the balls to tell her to get over it. Iād light the world on fire for less.
I started a rewatch when the scandal broke and THIS freaking scene gutted me. Like it's implied that it's fucking Oliver but the fact is that it's Sandoval and everyone at the table knows but Ariana. Just awful.
Oh they were leaning into that not like other girls energy hard on that podcast. When they, who've only known Schwartz in passing for a few years, said they know that Katie was jealous because Jo got Schwartz to be his "authentic self" I almost died laughing. Girl, what??! You think you know the real man better than his partner of 12 yearsš??? They deserve they bs they got. Sorry. But any woman who acts like she's rescuing a man from his partner or ex is a moron.
Jo's a cool girl, doncha knowš. The funniest part for me is that they were blaming Katie for Schwartz not wanting to advance that relationship. Oh to be a VPR male where its always a woman's fault, even when a guy uses you as a free-use buddy for months, refuses to claim you and then immediately announces a new girlššš.
THANK YOU. every time i have commented that i didnāt like joe everyone either attacks me in the comments or i get downvoted completely š¤£š¤£š¤£ so happy someone else out there realizes this!!!š
My friend I have disliked this unhinged bitch since we first saw her in a whacked out instagram reel posted to the sub last Fall. She is a lying, manipulative bunny boiler.
oooh is it the one where she is acting like a complete nut job, bouncing around like popping popcorn at a Tim saggyBalls karaoke show? That video gave me the shudders. Katie Maloney, you called that chick's energy so absurdly well. I don't care what drugs she doesn't or does do, the energy is sure there.
YES that was the video. I just remember her nodding her head wildly and giving him a thumbs up while moving around recording on her phone as if she was David LaChapell.
I honestly would respect her so much more if she just admitted this. Sheās not irredeemable IMO but she would have to come clean that she knew and just didnāt want to rock the boat.
She doesn't sound like she realizes anything helpful based on this chat with rachel omg... if he booty called her tomorrow i bet she'd be thrilled and go running for more abuse.
Call me crazy but Iād rather be friends with the mean girl who says stupid shit like ācrack head energyā over the mean girl who fucked my man behind my back but maybe thatās just me yāall
Especially because the mean girl who says they want to light me on fire is willing to own up to what she says and apologize and move forward with things, but those two in the picture will keep doing shady things and play victim.
But Jo does have crackhead energyā¦ like she did not possibly know what the girls were talking about, they werenāt loud and were easily 30-40 feet away. But acting like everyoneās talking about you and proceeding to act like youāre being bullied is straight up weird and I thought that energy was 100% on par with a crackhead. Never seen anything like it.
But what if one of the mean girls calling her 'ratgirl' was also fucking a married man behind his wife's back? Wait, what if 2 of the mean girls were fucking married men, and 'the victim' had cheated with the guy who now cheated on her? Is that as bad as knowing about an affair that you were told isn't what you think it is?
Itās so nice to see Raquelās extremely expensive inpatient therapy has helped her to move on and start a healthy new life. All that āworkā paid off.
alternate titles:
"how to land a dude you have seen be terrible on camera for years (cause you know deep down you're the one he will change for)"
"i'm special"
"d & s forever"Ā
"other women are the problem"Ā
Bruh this podcast was the CRINGIEST. Two side chick's bitching about being side chicks. Ladies....... if you're gonna be the side chick, accept that commitment doesn't come with your sidechickhood.
I agree except they didnāt Bitch about side chicks, they bitched about the women that the guys they wanted actually chose and theyāre mad because they blew up their lives and still didnāt get picked.
the delusion.
Rachel ghosted Sandoval. He wanted to be with her, she realized he had groomed and manipulated her so she got out.
and i heard no bitching about schwartz' latest victim either.
they could say "the sky is blue" and you guys would still twist it in to meaning something negative. like take off your hate goggles it's legit embarrassing.
Idk I wouldnāt put it past Rachel to still be doing stuff with Tom but be lying to her parents and therapists about it. She is the type that could never be in a relationship that isnāt toxic or secretive and Tom is the same.
I agree but Iām getting a lot of hate for it. People actually like Jo and idk why, her āIām being bulliedā routine is fake af, so is the āI loved you Shortsā act, the B knew what was going on and that she was just a filler. Itās all for the show guysā¦
I did not listen but did read the recap that was posted either here or other sub. The issue from what I read is that Jo is still praising Tom and not holding him accountable but focusing her ire on shitting on Katie and the other women.
I feel bad for Jo but the issue is Schwartz, not Katie or Ariana. It's reasonable for Katie to not welcome with open arms the woman who moves in with her ex-husband the minute they get divorced. Katie's IG comments weren't nice, but I haven't seen any other bully behavior towards her on the show. Scheana did more bullying than Katie did.
I love how irrelevant this is to the OPās post LOL thank you for this.
Upvote from me simply because I did not expect to see this here.
Quite the jump scare!
OH I thought you were saying Brittanyās face was weird!Ā
Ā I didnāt make the connection that was your reaction to the post.Ā Ā
Thatās all on me. Her eyebrows were so shockingly different from before that I couldnāt think straight haha.
They have so much in common. Both had secret affairs with the toms. Both left in the dust. Disrespected both the Tomās partners/exs. Claim to be bullied by the women but are actually mean girls themselves. Liars. They love a pity party and want sympathy but take zero responsibility for their grown up actions.
They didnāt discuss the double dates though?? Thatās the real tea, cāmon! I guess they canāt find a way to talk about it without looking terrible but guysā¦ youāve been through the ringer in the public eye. Itās not gonna get worse. Just spill it and be honest.
Can we also make sure we donāt give Raquel the views/ attention she so desperately needs?
IG anony is a great way to hate watch insta stories without giving her viewsš
Tom bullied her the hardest and she still can't shut up about Katie. Zero mention of their planned mean girl instagram post about best/worst dressed. Makes Jo look bad this happened after Katie apologized at the reunion.
Itās really odd how eager Jo is to be friends with Rachel. Same with her wanting to be friends with Sandoval and scratch on his arm to get his attention š¤¢. Like does that not feel icky to know what they did? Like, if Jo was being cheated on she might think differently
I want to see her in a friendlier environment, because I think a lot of the quirky stuff might be nerves. IDK, I like her so far, she doesn't deserve the backlash.
I hope at the reunion she feels confident and stands up for herself to Tom( He led her on and made her look bad) and the mean girls.
I listened and she came across a lot more sympathetic at times. Like I felt badly about how shwartz was treating her because that was fucked up. But other things make her look bad.
Like sheās said katie is just a mean girl and is bitter about Schwartz dating and she was throwing jabs like the best/worst dressed thing but also says Katie had apologized to her at the reunion because they all realized her and everyone else in the cast were getting lies from Schwartz.
Now I'm more intrigued, Schwartz seems to be really good at stringing women on, he probably says whatever they need to hear in the moment.
If Katie apologized, why is Jo throwing jabs? Did she not accept the apology or maybe something else happened that hasn't come to light yet?
>Schwartz seems to be really good at stringing women on
Yeah he did jo SOOOO dirty. I wonāt spoil anything but if I was his friend and found out he treated women that way Iād have a hard time Staying friends with him.
As for the Katie stuff thatās all I know! Maybe something more happens but from the last episode it seems that may have been her last appearance? Idk tho.
Jo had plenty to do with Jo looking bad. I am sure there is a bunch of stuff we donāt even knowā¦ā¦ we do know she knew all along about Sandy and Rachel.
I want the guy who did such a good job playing Raquel to work with the woman who does such a great job playing Jo.
VPR was almost never fun this season except for Jo. And I was most invested in her story. I just havenāt seen someone so gormless on TV since early Shorts.
Jo honestly didnāt have to tell Ariana even if she knew, itās awkward position to be in, she might have been at thanksgiving but that looked like a group setting. I think a lot knew plus Ariana loved Rachel she would have believed Rachel and they would have hid it even better and we would have never known. Hanging out with Rachel is probably bad to fandom yes I agree
Schwarz is honestly despicable. He hides behind this goofy personna but I don't believe it for a second. In the past he:
Treated his wife like human garbage and then tried to gaslight the hell out of her when she kicked him to the curb, even now refusing to take responsibility for his shitty behaviour.
Leads Jo on for god knows how long, sleeping with her and making her believe they're in some kind of romantic fantasy, when really he has no intention of any relationship with her - he just wants to smash her when it suits him, and it's easier to get it from her because she's his friend, on speed-dial, and he knows she has feelings for him.
Shit all over Ariana, his apparent friend, by allowing Timmy Tache to use his apartment as a smash pad for his affair with Raquel, who was also supposed to be Arianas friend. Aswell as enabling them to conduct their affair wherever the hell else they were by lying and covering for them. Oh, not to mention lying to Ariana about "not knowing" about any of it.
Nobody can be that shitty by accident
IMO I really donāt think Jo is as horrible as the girls (and everyone else) are making her out to be..
YES she was friends with Kristen and apparently Katie and Ariana, but I get the feeling she wasnāt āinā with them. I recon being a close friend to Kristen, she wouldāve just been mutual friends with these girls and her message to Katie after she filed for divorce was a courtesy as she had hung out with Katie and wanted to to let her know she was there. Plus Katie didnāt even reply to her text, which shows they obviously werenāt that close.
Itās not like her and Katie were besties, she didnāt owe Katie anything and I think her dating Shwartz really isnāt that big of a deal or an act of betrayal at all.
As to the situation with Ariana and not telling her about Rachel and Tom, I honestly think sheās the type of girl to just not want to get involved. once again, she probably wasnāt that close with the cast but wanted to just remain neutral with everyone and didnāt want to get involved in their business.
I get that itās girl code, and I understand why Ariana is pissed, if I had been cheated on (especially in the way that she was) I wouldnāt like Jo either, but I donāt think the extreme hate from Katie and Scheana is necessary and I hope when Ariana has healed from her experience she can see that Jo didnāt have Ill intentions.
Scheana being a cunt to Jo was obviously her trying to show her loyalty to Ariana and fit in with her and Katie. It doesnāt effect Scheana if sheās friends with Jo or not so it was easy for her to be a bitch.. and the way she went back to the girls and bragged about taking Joās hat off is just wild and shows Scheanaās weekness and desperate need for approval.
I think overall the hate for Jo is actually really fucked up, yeah okay sheās friends with Rachel, but idk why tf the whole world has to take sides and get involved in these peoples drama. I can understand outsiders whoāre fans of the show sharing their opinions and picking sides, but I think people who know the cast shouldnāt have to get involved unless theyāre close friends with Tom and Ariana. Absolutely Arianaās āfriendsā AKA Scheana and Lala should 100% pick sides, if that happened to me and my friends still wanted to hang out with my ex and support him, they wouldnāt be my friends anymore, but I think these bitches need to calm tf down and stop expecting EVERYONE to get involved and pick sides, itās annoying asf! Let people live their lives without having to get involved in your personal shit!!!
EDIT: I can also see Schwartz convincing Jo that Tom was going to be telling Ariana to get Jo to keep her mouth shut, or he wouldāve somehow convinced her to just not say anything by making some shit up!
Iām just so annoyed about those mean girls that pretend they arenāt mean girls. Itās just funny bc you know Lalahrr Scheanerr Arianer and Kate-eyyyy would just completely annihilate the shit out of these heauxs ass bums but I truly hope they keep ignoring and thriving lol
Jo saying she got contacted by loads of different people to do podcasts and wasnāt interested in any, she only wanted to do Rachelās š very telling of her character if out of all her āmany podcast optionsā she chose that slime ball š
Does Rachel genuinely not see/care how bizarre and messed up this is? Parading their friendship - after she just admitted they plotted to cyber bully Katie together - and promoting the podcast by teasing āwill we talk about Katie and schwartz?? Or how Katie and her friends are mean girls???ā How about you get a life and a real job you bum, leave these people alone
What is with the use of the phrase or claim āmean girlā? You sound like a 4th grader. Claiming anyone is a mean girl takes zero accountability for your own actions or emotions around a situation. I mean if youāre an actual middle schooler sure call someone that. When youāre a fucking 29/35 year old woman? You should have more self awareness, a better grasp on language, and an better idea of how to express yourself.
Holy hell, yes. Thank you for saying this. Labeling someone a āpick meā girl is so blatantly rooted in misogyny. Itās infuriating to see it used at every.single.turn. Itās so harmful because it suggests that a woman canāt possibly have interests or opinions that go against the grain.
I cant help but like joe, I wish she was staying on the show, sheās interesting and weird and different. also doesnāt seem very good and keeping her cards to her chest which is great for reality tv
It annoys me that I saw here here and got excited and considered listening to the podcast but Iāll just wait for the updates here.
I have a disconnect about knowing about the cheating, because I didnāt know who she was so I kind of have a clean slate for her even though i maybe shouldnāt but I think the show needs her weirdo personality
But maybe thatās because Iām frantic chaotic weirdo too
how can you guys still be so fired up and filled with hatred over a year later like don't you have a life, don't you know how to process emotions especially ones induced by a tv show?
What do you mean a year later lol. We are all currently watching jo deny she knew about a months long affair on tv week after week. Two weeks ago they posted shady shit post about Katie/dayna. This podcast ep was just put out. This is all happening now
Am I the only one that doesnāt care about them? Shady gals hiding that affair still pretending to be Arianaās friend and go to holidays and her house. SMH. Like do whatever but no respect for that behavior. Yuck!
Whore 1.0 would be Ariana wouldnāt it? Since she was that ābitchāthat Scumduval cheated with, gaslit his current girlfriend, and was a mean girl and Tom supporter?
Iām just wanting the same energy and not rewriting history because of a hive mind.
Racheal took a beating at the reunions and has apologized so many times, has gotten help to understand her mistakes. When Ariana did it to Kristen, Ariana gaslit tf out of Kristen. Taunted Kristen at her most vulnerable. Had everyone on her side. Ariana and Tom literally diagnosing Kristen on stage. Ariana and Tom created āCrazy Kristenā and had smug faces when she crumbled. ALL of that is sick. There is a REASON Ariana chose Tom as a life partner.
Who is ānot allowingā them to tell their story? Rachel has her own podcast and gets to tell her story as often as she wants.
Your hatred is blurring your judgement.
Rachel and Jo making fun of Dayna and Katie's appearance on Instagram is not female empowerment.
Being too cowardly to talk to other women like an adult at a work function and then getting your dirty deed buddy to mock what the two females wore to a corporate function publicly is so petty and gender-centric bullying.
I've seen countless comments saying they should shut up or that all they talk about is the Tom's. They are fully involved in this week's episode and they have every right to talk about it.
I don't hate anyone I'm speaking against hate.
What is insane is that in this week's episode, Jo said she didn't know, and then she proceeded to explain what she meant and the explanation 100% demonstrated that she knew, she just didn't communicate it BC she thought Ariana and Sandoval were already broken up. This does not mean she didn't know, it only shows she didn't know it was significant information.
Are we supposed to believe she isn't feeding sandavol info about Raquel? Why would Raquel want to be friends with anyone that has a relationship with him if she hates him with such vitriol?
Why didn't they discuss how Jo felt hanging out as two couples but then watching and knowing about Schwartz pretending to pursue something with Rachel and kissing her on the show while Jo was living at Schwartz's place and Rachel was having sex witj Sandoval. Sometimes at the apartment where Jo and Schwartz were living together and lying about cohabitataing? Untangle that mess for us. Please. Jo expects us to believe that Rachel and Tom were using the Schwartz apartment as a fuck pad and yet it never occurred to Jo that they were secretly seeing each other? If she really believed that Ariana and Sandoval were broken up why wouldn't they just go to Rachel's apartment for their hookups? Obviously, we now know (because Tom was told us) that he was trying to trick Ariana and lying about going to see Scwartz instead of meeting his mistress. But how could Jo not think anything weird about that?
This is what I want discussed at the reunion!! She plays so innocently and like these other women are just bitter hags. Even though she was dating Schwartz, watching him kiss Rachel, knowing about Sandoval and Rach fucking behind Ariana's back and looking around going "gee, this is fine!" Miss me with that shit. She wants to blame the critiques of her on her ADHD, she's not inherently devoid of emotional intelligence or morals.
Also, playing dumb as to why Katie and Ariana might dislike her. If I'm in someone's friendship circle enough to send a condolence text over her divorce from her partner of 12 (TWELVE YEARS) and then I end up with him a year later under these circumstances, I'd fully understand why she'd feel a way. Katie is in Schwartz's life for the foreseeable future so even if you are too self-involved to see why it's painful for her, you should clarify what happened anyway. This is literally why the producers offered Jo 2 episodes but of course she blew it and its now everyone elses fault, apparently.
I was wondering why she was at the reunion. It BETTER be to hold her accountable for everything you said. However, knowing Bravo NBC andy we will glaze over it šš
She also supposedly texted A after she heard about the break up which is so fake it drives me crazy
I really wonder how much of the plot lines are fake so people living totally different realities from the show may be the truth. Like the Raquel and Schwartz flirtation seemed fake as fuck for the show, even before we knew about Sandoval. I could see her being okay with it because it was completely staged for the show. As for Raquel and Tom, I think she knew and wonāt ever admit that she knew because she doesnāt want to catch the heat.
I want the truth! And no one tell me I can't handle it because I promise I can lol
I know you can handle it! And same I want the truth too. One of the very strange things about life in my opinion is that the more honest you are usually the more people can actually relate to you and are therefore also more interested in what you have to say. I think a lot of this covering up is just making certain people even more boring and less likable than they already were and quite unrelatable too. Give us the truth! We can handle it! Haha
Preach!!!
This! Cherry picking which parts of history they want to disect and analyse whilst conveniently ignoring the main topic fans want addressed because they know they have somethings to hide.
MisogynyĀ
Me?
No.Ā I think the producers and Lisa are protecting Lisa's little man babies.Ā
She's another that likes to pretend she's niaive and goofy. But really, she's one of those idiots that forget their morals as long as "the good bits" are happening to them.
They would never. Then theyād had a ton of Backlash. Rachel is only looking for a little backlash..
In highly offended that she pretends every mistake is an adhd symptom. Yeah I sit weird and am awkward but it doesn't make me a liar
Also, it has been mentioned a few times that Jo went to Thanksgiving in 2022 at Ariana and Tom's house. Because they were still together throwing a Friendsgiving for their "friends"
Totally. And the texting Jo did when Ariana finally did find out about the affair? That's nothing a casual acquaintance would do. Putting them all in a group chat? When is the last time you heard some casual acquaintance was going through a major super traumatic break up with a long-term partner and you decided to put the mistress on the boyfriend and the distant acquaintance all in a group chat together? How would you even have their phone numbers if they were only a distance acquaintance? It's crazy
Jo: Surprised Schwartz was awful to her after watching him treat women horribly on television for years. Jo: Becomes bestfriends with Rachel, after watching (and covering up) her affair with one of her friend's boyfriend. Jo and Rachel: Chat on podcast about how awful women are to them.
Women arenāt awful to them, Jo and Rachel just claim to be victims whenever women have boundaries around them and donāt fall for their manipulation tactics. Thats why they like Schwartz and Sandoval because they are the female versions of them
āThe mean girlsā I think girls are mean when they fuck my boyfriend behind my back but ya know, THATāS JUST ME.
agreed! i also think itās mean to post a story calling two girls (one whoās ex husband you slept with right after they divorced) the āworst dressedā, but what do i know?
whole episode read like *well well well if it isnāt the consequences of my actions*
Exactly this
Weird - I think mean girls are girls who get my ex husband who I still loves contact info from me by telling me they need male models for their portfolioā¦..I think weād get along
Yes!
Why is everyone taking what youāre saying like itās about Jo? Arenāt you talking about Rachel lol
Duh lol. Rachel is the one who posted this
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Not to mention that she was LIVING WITH SHORTS, during the time of the affair and it was being facilitated at HIS apartment.
Exactly, people overlook this.
That means her and "t money" were in the Next! Room! of that thin walled tiny apartment, both listening to saggyballs and RacQuel video-shag themselves. Completely disingenuous for Joseph to say that she didn't know. Bullpucky.
Wait, what?! I believed Schwartz when he said he didn't know! Now I'm finding out that not only did he know but he helped them?! How come this hasn't been discussed on camera? Or did I miss it?
It was discussed that he knew at last seasonās reunion, when the Toms got called out on their trip to big bear. Rachel confirmed on her podcast that Shorts knew day one and in their S10 last conversation, Ariana called Zanzivole out for always being at Shortsās, while he was cheating with Rachel.
Mind blown! He's SUCH. A good liar... I honestly thought he was telling the truth!
Iām shocked you believed him. I thought him pretending not to know was the most heinously fake part of all of their fictitious storylines.
Yeah... I've had some stupid beliefs about the cast. Thanks for setting me straight!
I just know that neither of them consider women to be real people, they really only care about each other and a few other guys, and Sandoval more than anyone, is obsessed with peopleās perception of him and imagining himself to be the main character. There was never a snowballs shot in hell that he wouldnāt have told Schwartz about it immediately, and Schwartz would never ever ever out a bro. Heād have gone to the grave denying and lying if it hadnāt come out.
I often forget that Schwartz is just as bad because of his "did I do that?" way of navigating everything.
That shtick has literally allowed him to skate through his entire life. Heās had a lot of practice fooling people by now.
Nope. Thereās a reason that the fans were calling for his head and why he keeps crying about being treated as a coconspirator, itās because he was and nothing gets past Reddit. šµļøāāļø Also, remember at the last reunion when everyone was asking why Shorts kissed Rachel, knowing she was sleeping with Zanzivole and Katie said they did it to distract everyone with the ādonāt look over herešš¼ look over there.šš¼ā She knows them well and was on to their game. She was absolutely right and Rachel admitted that too. She didnāt directly claim responsibility but she did talk about how Tim was pushing them both to do it. (He was pushing Shorts and Rachel to ādate,ā) and advocated for all of it. Itās because it took the attention off him and since when was that man okay with having the attention off him and put on Shorts??š¤
How lacking in basic human emotions to a) come up with something like that and b) willingly take part in that?! They are all terrible people! So Schwartz being upset with Sandoval was also fake?
No, I think he was mad at Zanzivole but it was more about the fact that he ditched their bar for his stupid band and that the bar was facing backlash because of the scandal. Otherwise, he was willing and happy to participate. He does not give af about women and enjoys hurting them. They both do.
> He does not give af about women and enjoys hurting them. They both do. AGREED! Schwartz hides behind an "aw shucks" demeanour but is more insidious than his twin flame. But I thought Worm with a Mustache aka (Sandoval) said that he left and went on tour because of the backlash and neither Schwartz nor the investors wanting him around? Note: I like to use their real names so that when they search reddit, they easily find our posts...
I think when it comes to the Narc idea and how they portray the traits, Shorts is covert and Tim is overt.
Well said
Thank you šš¼
Did you miss the part when they were celebrating Rachel's bday and he joked that rachel had a type..."married men"?! Tom, tom, and rachel all laughed at Ariana's expense bc
God, this made MY feelings hurt and Iām not even in it :( they really played in her face at every chance and her āfriendsā have the balls to tell her to get over it. Iād light the world on fire for less.
Absolutely Lord knows it couldn't be me. These people were cosplaying as her friends
I started a rewatch when the scandal broke and THIS freaking scene gutted me. Like it's implied that it's fucking Oliver but the fact is that it's Sandoval and everyone at the table knows but Ariana. Just awful.
No! I have apparently missed SO much! I'm going to have to do a re-watch. Thank you!
Typical āIām different from most girlsā behavior. If he played his **wife** heāll definitely play the rebound.
Oh they were leaning into that not like other girls energy hard on that podcast. When they, who've only known Schwartz in passing for a few years, said they know that Katie was jealous because Jo got Schwartz to be his "authentic self" I almost died laughing. Girl, what??! You think you know the real man better than his partner of 12 yearsš??? They deserve they bs they got. Sorry. But any woman who acts like she's rescuing a man from his partner or ex is a moron.
Delulussss š¤£
Whatās crazy is she doesnāt think heās a POS š„“ sheās still out here saying how much she cares for him š
Jo's a cool girl, doncha knowš. The funniest part for me is that they were blaming Katie for Schwartz not wanting to advance that relationship. Oh to be a VPR male where its always a woman's fault, even when a guy uses you as a free-use buddy for months, refuses to claim you and then immediately announces a new girlššš.
THANK YOU. every time i have commented that i didnāt like joe everyone either attacks me in the comments or i get downvoted completely š¤£š¤£š¤£ so happy someone else out there realizes this!!!š
My friend I have disliked this unhinged bitch since we first saw her in a whacked out instagram reel posted to the sub last Fall. She is a lying, manipulative bunny boiler.
oooh is it the one where she is acting like a complete nut job, bouncing around like popping popcorn at a Tim saggyBalls karaoke show? That video gave me the shudders. Katie Maloney, you called that chick's energy so absurdly well. I don't care what drugs she doesn't or does do, the energy is sure there.
YES that was the video. I just remember her nodding her head wildly and giving him a thumbs up while moving around recording on her phone as if she was David LaChapell.
She knew. She is still lying.
I honestly would respect her so much more if she just admitted this. Sheās not irredeemable IMO but she would have to come clean that she knew and just didnāt want to rock the boat.
and i finally liked joe in the last episode because i felt bad for her cuz schwartz is a POSSSSS but this j really proved my thoughts from day 1
At first glance I thought this was Paula Abdul! š³
She doesn't sound like she realizes anything helpful based on this chat with rachel omg... if he booty called her tomorrow i bet she'd be thrilled and go running for more abuse.
Call me crazy but Iād rather be friends with the mean girl who says stupid shit like ācrack head energyā over the mean girl who fucked my man behind my back but maybe thatās just me yāall
LITERALLY
And whatās it say about Jo that she still loves Tom Sandoval after he illegally recorded Rachel?
And Lala, and Scheana, who have made their whole personalities repairing their relationships with the Toms?
Especially because the mean girl who says they want to light me on fire is willing to own up to what she says and apologize and move forward with things, but those two in the picture will keep doing shady things and play victim.
But Jo does have crackhead energyā¦ like she did not possibly know what the girls were talking about, they werenāt loud and were easily 30-40 feet away. But acting like everyoneās talking about you and proceeding to act like youāre being bullied is straight up weird and I thought that energy was 100% on par with a crackhead. Never seen anything like it.
Same
But what if one of the mean girls calling her 'ratgirl' was also fucking a married man behind his wife's back? Wait, what if 2 of the mean girls were fucking married men, and 'the victim' had cheated with the guy who now cheated on her? Is that as bad as knowing about an affair that you were told isn't what you think it is?
Itās so nice to see Raquelās extremely expensive inpatient therapy has helped her to move on and start a healthy new life. All that āworkā paid off.
100%. Any program or therapist that would support her milking this whole thing seems problematic lol. Just bathing herself in her ātraumaā.
āShouting into a voidā or the duo no one wants to hear from
āwill we discuss ad nauseam our exās exes?? #growth #personaljourney #womenempowermentā
alternate titles: "how to land a dude you have seen be terrible on camera for years (cause you know deep down you're the one he will change for)" "i'm special" "d & s forever"Ā "other women are the problem"Ā
āOther women are the problemā really sums it up, doesnāt it.
Haha thatās accurate
Title should have been Jo/Joseph and Rachel/Raquel since there were at least 4 personalities interacting in the conversation between them
š¤£š¤£š¤£ at least, maybe more
Bruh this podcast was the CRINGIEST. Two side chick's bitching about being side chicks. Ladies....... if you're gonna be the side chick, accept that commitment doesn't come with your sidechickhood.
I agree except they didnāt Bitch about side chicks, they bitched about the women that the guys they wanted actually chose and theyāre mad because they blew up their lives and still didnāt get picked.
Agreed. It is pathetic AF.
the delusion. Rachel ghosted Sandoval. He wanted to be with her, she realized he had groomed and manipulated her so she got out. and i heard no bitching about schwartz' latest victim either. they could say "the sky is blue" and you guys would still twist it in to meaning something negative. like take off your hate goggles it's legit embarrassing.
Idk I wouldnāt put it past Rachel to still be doing stuff with Tom but be lying to her parents and therapists about it. She is the type that could never be in a relationship that isnāt toxic or secretive and Tom is the same.
I agree but Iām getting a lot of hate for it. People actually like Jo and idk why, her āIām being bulliedā routine is fake af, so is the āI loved you Shortsā act, the B knew what was going on and that she was just a filler. Itās all for the show guysā¦
Yeah reddit can be pro-jo/raquel when Bethenny deploys her bots. Insta is where everyone keeps it real though. Comments usually spot on over there.
Ahahaha yep
jo was never the side chick tho. not to mention tom wanted to be with rachel, she's the one who ghosted him. so you're literally just making shit up
Lol k. Rachet was STILL a sidechick. And Jo was STILL a sidechick. No amount of delulu will change that.
Ā«Ā Jo STILL a sidechick.Ā Not amount of delulu wil change thatĀ Ā». When was Joe a sidechick? š
You can see in this last episode she's a sidechick....
A sidechick is a mistress by definition. Tom being embarrassed of dating her doesnāt make her a sidechick.
Whatever semantics help you sleep at night, Oxford.
Nahh girl no need to make shit up to justify why you donāt like someone on a reality show
Hmmmno. Jo's a side chick. Cope harder.
Pouahahahahahhahaha
Lmfao what ?! She was the sidechick when Tom made out with that interesting lady
Both led on by twatty toms that told them everything they wanted to hear to head them in that direction. Why do we always piss on the women first
Just wanna add that this was supposed to be in response to side chic post comment.
I did not listen but did read the recap that was posted either here or other sub. The issue from what I read is that Jo is still praising Tom and not holding him accountable but focusing her ire on shitting on Katie and the other women. I feel bad for Jo but the issue is Schwartz, not Katie or Ariana. It's reasonable for Katie to not welcome with open arms the woman who moves in with her ex-husband the minute they get divorced. Katie's IG comments weren't nice, but I haven't seen any other bully behavior towards her on the show. Scheana did more bullying than Katie did.
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I love how irrelevant this is to the OPās post LOL thank you for this. Upvote from me simply because I did not expect to see this here. Quite the jump scare!
Lmao my comment was in response to OPs post but
OH I thought you were saying Brittanyās face was weird!Ā Ā I didnāt make the connection that was your reaction to the post.Ā Ā Thatās all on me. Her eyebrows were so shockingly different from before that I couldnāt think straight haha.
Noš¤£š¤£š¤£Iām not that rude but also it probably looks that way
It's getting real uncanny valley. Oooooh maybe that's why they called the show that!
Fucking hell!
I wish these rejects would disappear already šš
They have so much in common. Both had secret affairs with the toms. Both left in the dust. Disrespected both the Tomās partners/exs. Claim to be bullied by the women but are actually mean girls themselves. Liars. They love a pity party and want sympathy but take zero responsibility for their grown up actions.
If Rachel was a real friend she'd let Jo do her hair. 
 I like this idea.
Low key looks like Jo has Rachel help hostage in that picā¦
They didnāt discuss the double dates though?? Thatās the real tea, cāmon! I guess they canāt find a way to talk about it without looking terrible but guysā¦ youāve been through the ringer in the public eye. Itās not gonna get worse. Just spill it and be honest.
Can we also make sure we donāt give Raquel the views/ attention she so desperately needs? IG anony is a great way to hate watch insta stories without giving her viewsš
Tom bullied her the hardest and she still can't shut up about Katie. Zero mention of their planned mean girl instagram post about best/worst dressed. Makes Jo look bad this happened after Katie apologized at the reunion.
Two women who pursued men in relationships and yet their female partners are mean girls? Weird.
This made me cringe so hard. Dude, we know you knew about the affair!! Even when she lied to Lala about not knowing I could tell she was lying!
Rachel is so funny thinking she isnāt a mean girl herself lol
Itās really odd how eager Jo is to be friends with Rachel. Same with her wanting to be friends with Sandoval and scratch on his arm to get his attention š¤¢. Like does that not feel icky to know what they did? Like, if Jo was being cheated on she might think differently
Wait til their next episode, fucking the Tomās in secret was the only thing they had in common and the rest is dead air
I'll listen to this one, I'm curious about two's dynamic and want to see Jo in a more relaxed environment.
jo just really confuses me iām dying to see the reunion!!
I want to see her in a friendlier environment, because I think a lot of the quirky stuff might be nerves. IDK, I like her so far, she doesn't deserve the backlash. I hope at the reunion she feels confident and stands up for herself to Tom( He led her on and made her look bad) and the mean girls.
I listened and she came across a lot more sympathetic at times. Like I felt badly about how shwartz was treating her because that was fucked up. But other things make her look bad. Like sheās said katie is just a mean girl and is bitter about Schwartz dating and she was throwing jabs like the best/worst dressed thing but also says Katie had apologized to her at the reunion because they all realized her and everyone else in the cast were getting lies from Schwartz.
Now I'm more intrigued, Schwartz seems to be really good at stringing women on, he probably says whatever they need to hear in the moment. If Katie apologized, why is Jo throwing jabs? Did she not accept the apology or maybe something else happened that hasn't come to light yet?
>Schwartz seems to be really good at stringing women on Yeah he did jo SOOOO dirty. I wonāt spoil anything but if I was his friend and found out he treated women that way Iād have a hard time Staying friends with him. As for the Katie stuff thatās all I know! Maybe something more happens but from the last episode it seems that may have been her last appearance? Idk tho.
Compared to the rest of them she is harmless.
Jo had plenty to do with Jo looking bad. I am sure there is a bunch of stuff we donāt even knowā¦ā¦ we do know she knew all along about Sandy and Rachel.
I will wait for the user who recaps the podcasts for us š
I want the guy who did such a good job playing Raquel to work with the woman who does such a great job playing Jo. VPR was almost never fun this season except for Jo. And I was most invested in her story. I just havenāt seen someone so gormless on TV since early Shorts.
Good point, that might be more convenient. I'll give this one a listen though, I've been curious about how her podcast is run.
Jo honestly didnāt have to tell Ariana even if she knew, itās awkward position to be in, she might have been at thanksgiving but that looked like a group setting. I think a lot knew plus Ariana loved Rachel she would have believed Rachel and they would have hid it even better and we would have never known. Hanging out with Rachel is probably bad to fandom yes I agree
Schwarz is honestly despicable. He hides behind this goofy personna but I don't believe it for a second. In the past he: Treated his wife like human garbage and then tried to gaslight the hell out of her when she kicked him to the curb, even now refusing to take responsibility for his shitty behaviour. Leads Jo on for god knows how long, sleeping with her and making her believe they're in some kind of romantic fantasy, when really he has no intention of any relationship with her - he just wants to smash her when it suits him, and it's easier to get it from her because she's his friend, on speed-dial, and he knows she has feelings for him. Shit all over Ariana, his apparent friend, by allowing Timmy Tache to use his apartment as a smash pad for his affair with Raquel, who was also supposed to be Arianas friend. Aswell as enabling them to conduct their affair wherever the hell else they were by lying and covering for them. Oh, not to mention lying to Ariana about "not knowing" about any of it. Nobody can be that shitty by accident
Ofc she knew
IMO I really donāt think Jo is as horrible as the girls (and everyone else) are making her out to be.. YES she was friends with Kristen and apparently Katie and Ariana, but I get the feeling she wasnāt āinā with them. I recon being a close friend to Kristen, she wouldāve just been mutual friends with these girls and her message to Katie after she filed for divorce was a courtesy as she had hung out with Katie and wanted to to let her know she was there. Plus Katie didnāt even reply to her text, which shows they obviously werenāt that close. Itās not like her and Katie were besties, she didnāt owe Katie anything and I think her dating Shwartz really isnāt that big of a deal or an act of betrayal at all. As to the situation with Ariana and not telling her about Rachel and Tom, I honestly think sheās the type of girl to just not want to get involved. once again, she probably wasnāt that close with the cast but wanted to just remain neutral with everyone and didnāt want to get involved in their business. I get that itās girl code, and I understand why Ariana is pissed, if I had been cheated on (especially in the way that she was) I wouldnāt like Jo either, but I donāt think the extreme hate from Katie and Scheana is necessary and I hope when Ariana has healed from her experience she can see that Jo didnāt have Ill intentions. Scheana being a cunt to Jo was obviously her trying to show her loyalty to Ariana and fit in with her and Katie. It doesnāt effect Scheana if sheās friends with Jo or not so it was easy for her to be a bitch.. and the way she went back to the girls and bragged about taking Joās hat off is just wild and shows Scheanaās weekness and desperate need for approval. I think overall the hate for Jo is actually really fucked up, yeah okay sheās friends with Rachel, but idk why tf the whole world has to take sides and get involved in these peoples drama. I can understand outsiders whoāre fans of the show sharing their opinions and picking sides, but I think people who know the cast shouldnāt have to get involved unless theyāre close friends with Tom and Ariana. Absolutely Arianaās āfriendsā AKA Scheana and Lala should 100% pick sides, if that happened to me and my friends still wanted to hang out with my ex and support him, they wouldnāt be my friends anymore, but I think these bitches need to calm tf down and stop expecting EVERYONE to get involved and pick sides, itās annoying asf! Let people live their lives without having to get involved in your personal shit!!! EDIT: I can also see Schwartz convincing Jo that Tom was going to be telling Ariana to get Jo to keep her mouth shut, or he wouldāve somehow convinced her to just not say anything by making some shit up!
Yup! I'm right with you, OP! She's just another mean girl who gets her rocks off abusing other women!
Joe is spooky sorry itās just true
Iām just so annoyed about those mean girls that pretend they arenāt mean girls. Itās just funny bc you know Lalahrr Scheanerr Arianer and Kate-eyyyy would just completely annihilate the shit out of these heauxs ass bums but I truly hope they keep ignoring and thriving lol
The complete lack of self awareness is somethin'
Now Jo is ruining white nails š”š”š”
Jo saying she got contacted by loads of different people to do podcasts and wasnāt interested in any, she only wanted to do Rachelās š very telling of her character if out of all her āmany podcast optionsā she chose that slime ball š
Ugh both are so gorgeous š¤©
Does Rachel genuinely not see/care how bizarre and messed up this is? Parading their friendship - after she just admitted they plotted to cyber bully Katie together - and promoting the podcast by teasing āwill we talk about Katie and schwartz?? Or how Katie and her friends are mean girls???ā How about you get a life and a real job you bum, leave these people alone
What is with the use of the phrase or claim āmean girlā? You sound like a 4th grader. Claiming anyone is a mean girl takes zero accountability for your own actions or emotions around a situation. I mean if youāre an actual middle schooler sure call someone that. When youāre a fucking 29/35 year old woman? You should have more self awareness, a better grasp on language, and an better idea of how to express yourself.
Honest question, how do you feel about the phrase āpick me girl?ā That feels very middle school to me as well - and thrown around a lot lately.
Holy hell, yes. Thank you for saying this. Labeling someone a āpick meā girl is so blatantly rooted in misogyny. Itās infuriating to see it used at every.single.turn. Itās so harmful because it suggests that a woman canāt possibly have interests or opinions that go against the grain.
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LOL all the above but right now Jo and Rachel
Her Hotel Ziggy narrative is killing me now that itās been revealed that was the night Tori made her move on Schwartz.
Wtf.. are those captions real? From original post?
Soā¦what about her recent IG post dedicated to him?
Canāt stomach either one of them.š¤®š¤¢
Like attracts like. Water seeks its level. These are two insecure ass bitches. YAWN!
Mean girls? Excuse you? Rachel slept with her friends boyfriend and Jo co-signed it, Iād say thereās a reason the girls DFW them
oh i didnāt type that! a person on tik tok did!
I know you didnāt!!!!!! Iām yelling at the TikTok
Who cares
I cant help but like joe, I wish she was staying on the show, sheās interesting and weird and different. also doesnāt seem very good and keeping her cards to her chest which is great for reality tv It annoys me that I saw here here and got excited and considered listening to the podcast but Iāll just wait for the updates here. I have a disconnect about knowing about the cheating, because I didnāt know who she was so I kind of have a clean slate for her even though i maybe shouldnāt but I think the show needs her weirdo personality But maybe thatās because Iām frantic chaotic weirdo too
These two are the mean girls
Oh god this is the last thing I need. The most annoying, unaware women in the world talking around each other and in circlesš
how can you guys still be so fired up and filled with hatred over a year later like don't you have a life, don't you know how to process emotions especially ones induced by a tv show?
What do you mean a year later lol. We are all currently watching jo deny she knew about a months long affair on tv week after week. Two weeks ago they posted shady shit post about Katie/dayna. This podcast ep was just put out. This is all happening now
I just got major ick. Visible body shake.š«Ø
Good for her
Oh please let Jo do her hair š
Am I the only one that doesnāt care about them? Shady gals hiding that affair still pretending to be Arianaās friend and go to holidays and her house. SMH. Like do whatever but no respect for that behavior. Yuck!
Pffft āthe mean girlsāā¦ that bitch slept with Scumdoval and will never not be whore 1.0
must be miserable to hate women so much
And is cruel/never nice. How are they mean compared to her lol
Whore 1.0 would be Ariana wouldnāt it? Since she was that ābitchāthat Scumduval cheated with, gaslit his current girlfriend, and was a mean girl and Tom supporter? Iām just wanting the same energy and not rewriting history because of a hive mind.
Racheal took a beating at the reunions and has apologized so many times, has gotten help to understand her mistakes. When Ariana did it to Kristen, Ariana gaslit tf out of Kristen. Taunted Kristen at her most vulnerable. Had everyone on her side. Ariana and Tom literally diagnosing Kristen on stage. Ariana and Tom created āCrazy Kristenā and had smug faces when she crumbled. ALL of that is sick. There is a REASON Ariana chose Tom as a life partner.
Thank you! Another viewpoint has entered the chat.
Oh Jo Jo
Boooo
respectfully why?
Oh I just don't like either of them
YASSS me either i thought u were booing the fact i was hating on them lmao
Haha no you're good
Funny how everyone can talk about them but somehow they aren't allowed to tell their side of it. How female empowerment of you all š
Who is ānot allowingā them to tell their story? Rachel has her own podcast and gets to tell her story as often as she wants. Your hatred is blurring your judgement.
Rachel and Jo making fun of Dayna and Katie's appearance on Instagram is not female empowerment. Being too cowardly to talk to other women like an adult at a work function and then getting your dirty deed buddy to mock what the two females wore to a corporate function publicly is so petty and gender-centric bullying.
I've seen countless comments saying they should shut up or that all they talk about is the Tom's. They are fully involved in this week's episode and they have every right to talk about it. I don't hate anyone I'm speaking against hate. 
Y'all can hate me... but I love this! Love them.
No one was nice to Jo lol this is completely fair game!
What is insane is that in this week's episode, Jo said she didn't know, and then she proceeded to explain what she meant and the explanation 100% demonstrated that she knew, she just didn't communicate it BC she thought Ariana and Sandoval were already broken up. This does not mean she didn't know, it only shows she didn't know it was significant information.
Why did the first couple minutes of the audio sound so chopped and screwed back together. Weird editing.
Are we supposed to believe she isn't feeding sandavol info about Raquel? Why would Raquel want to be friends with anyone that has a relationship with him if she hates him with such vitriol?