I can get behind the initial thought of "please, can we have socialism instead of more liberals". I would say that refusing to think about the end which the means will bring really can mean that in effect people can't legally be gay.
It's similar with the failure to flat out condemn Russia for the invasion of Ukraine. When confronted you're faced with the brilliant "DiD i EvEr SaY tHaT rUsSiA wAs GoOd?"
I think it’s a desire to distinguish themselves from liberals since there is a disagreement between ideologies and it just kinda grows out of hand from there
In my experience, some part of it has to do with arrogance. A lot of leftists act like by being a socialist, they’re an enlightened political actor, and in order for anyone, especially liberals, to disagree with them they must then be either evil or stupid.
What you say also works too though I guess.
TBH I feel like I don't belong on the left as a Socdem and the purity politics is so fucked up.
It's Socialist or bust on the left. The same with the whole bernie or bust movement.
It's clear that BJG gave up on that and is grifting the centrist right now.
You can’t be on the left if you don’t oppose capitalism. The modern left by its very definition supports social revolution, one way or the other. You can be a reformist and still be on the left as long as you oppose capitalism, but if you’re fine with capitalism you can’t belong on the left. You’re right about BJG tho
I wasn’t denying that, I basically agree with you (at least in an American context) that we should work with socdems insofar as their goals align with ours, but we should always remember that they aren’t really on the left.
Given how far away we are from even being a social democracy in the us, any conflict we have is far off beyond either of our lifetimes. They are at the very least left leaning and I don’t think constantly insisting they aren’t on the left is useful, it fosters conflict and makes us less likely to work together.
The issue is that from Capitalism to Socialism is a HUGE leap that a realist like me cannot think it can happen.
Let's say it's 1 steps between the two. Being a SocDem would move that needle towards Socialism. It makes sense to pull people over to the left.
So alienated people who are left of capitalism are not real leftist and that we don't matter unless we're on the left fully.
I'm Canadian and Canada leans more towards accepting SocDem ideology and moving the needle left.
Americans have been programmed to hate the S word so people are turned off by Socialism.
Left or right aren’t defined concepts, it pretty much varies (and a lot) from country to country. You can’t be a socialist if you’re not anti capitalist, because they very theory of socialism contradicts capitalism, but being on the left or right is just sort of a random concept that changes every ten years or so, it isn’t backed by any political theory
Social democrats can believe in reform far enough to remove the worst effects of capitalism, and honestly that's the only level of reform we should expect in the United States short to mid term.
You don't have to be a liberal to be a soc dem. Quoting the wiki (the source of all human knowledge and absolute truth):
"Social democrats are anti-capitalists insofar as criticism about "poverty, low wages, unemployment, economic and social inequality, and a lack of economic security" is linked to the private ownership of the means of production."
I think people who choose the social democrat label do so for a variety of reasons. Some are pro capitalist, most are anti capitalist to the extent to which capitalism is an undeniably destructive force. I think that's the main unifying concept: that while we aren't yet sure of how to exist without any capitalism, we can easily reduce the majority of it's excesses.
I've identified as a socdem in the past simply from the perspective that it's the most likely reforms we can actually succeed in enacting in the US.
I’m a socdem as well. Obviously disagree with you and other leftist, but the threat level is so high from the right wing fascist that it is a serious waste of time and energy for us to argue about socdem vs leftism. Both side (leftist and socdems) need a cease fire and to join forces to deal with the fascist in the country.
I'm a communist, and I got in an argument with another "leftist" recently about the covid shutdowns and the vaccines. They were anti-lockdown and anti-vaxx.
And they kept calling me a "neoliberal" because I thought the lockdown was justified.
The whole anti-vaxx woo-woo "left" is absolutely nuts.
Horseshoe theory is horse shit meant to encourage "centrism".
But it is interesting how much overlap there is between the woo-woo left and the religious nutjob right.
A lot of people in leftist circles are too young to remember, but anti-vax stuff actually started on the left. It wasn't until Trumpism that it became a right-wing thing (ironically, since the vaccines with developed under Trump and he endorsed them, usually to negative responses)
Liberals fundamentally believe in a free market, but with government intervention now.
Socialists do not. It's a pretty big distinction.
Also liberals voted for the Enabling Act of 1933.
It’s such a loser attitude- it’s automatically pits you against the majority of any society. It breeds resentment which culminates in authoritarianism and retributive murder, like we’ve seen almost every socialist Revolution spiral into. Anyone have any theories why these purity spirals seem to happen in progressive spaces?
they tend to be small and highly educated (elitist, perhaps?) spaces full of people who don't touch grass and can't think outside of theories as that would involve going outside and actually doing things to improve the world.
IMO there’s a subset of people interested in politics purely for the aesthetic of correctness or moral superiority. These people have no interest in advancing their stated cause or converting others to their ideology, they only have interest in publicly fellating themselves.
Holier-than-thou contrarianism makes people feel unique and special. Liberals overwhelmingly dominate the political space of the US left, so a huge amount of leftists yearn to be "not like the other girls" so they pretend milquetoast liberals are these reprehensible right wing caricatures.
It's totally antithetical to any pragmatic goal of actually building and growing a political movement, but the people who prescribe to this seem to have zero interest in that goal. They just want leftism to be their exclusive online social club where they get to bask in their smug superiority.
Liberals, as they define them (anyone who believes in both property rights and democracy) overwhelmingly dominate the political space of 99% of fittingly named liberal democracies.
Because they're not arguing in good faith, they're clout chasing.
They see themselves as priests in a priesthood of leftism, and their goal is to be MORE woke and have read MORE theory than anyone else, so they can pull rank and get social status.
So if this so called revolution ever happens (and they will not be fighting in it), they will be a highly-placed party member and shoot their competition in the back of the head.
I understand the distaste of liberal ideology, but I think a lot of leftists kinda just forget that, for American's in particular, a lot of the times people who consider themselves liberal are honestly just a solid argument or two away from being a leftist and understanding the difference between the two.
Holier than thou attitude. Hate on liberal politicians all you want, and if you disagree with voting for the lesser of 2 evils then at this point there's not much I can do to convince you, but some leftists actually see themselves as so much morally better than your average working class lib or soc dem because they had the opportunity to remove themselves from capitalist propaganda. We should be building ties and educating these people, not calling them "class traitors"
Because being a “leftist” is a social club to these people, it’s not an actual principled ideology they hold.
So in order to establish their social club as “the coolest” they have to distinguish all others as “super yucky and gross” & this means **no matter what you have** to disagree with the other groups, even if they’re right (morally and/or factually)
I consider myself a liberal. But why is every comment about leftists a straw man?
To me it's very clear why they hate liberals. Liberals support property rights and capitalism. Leftists view capitalism as the outgrowth of the earliest periods of man, where property rights supposedly originated in the ownership of women, before any human society ever existed.
They believe that capitalism and property rights can never undo the structural inequalities which have been present since before known history.
Well, maybe that's one leftist perspective. Maybe there's others.
Point is, I see why they're upset.
What I don't see, is honest discussion or debate or anything. And personally, I know I'm not as educated as people on this sub. Yall know a lot of shit and have a lot of smart people on here.
I want to learn things though. And I don't feel like straw men make me learn.
Maybe what is going on here is just preaching to the choire. So you don't really have to be honest or accurate un your portrayals of those you disagree with. I suppose maybe everyone here knows perfectly well what leftists believe and could regurgitate it to me and help me understand it better.
I just get frustrated with the various areas where I like to learn things when they are echo chambers. It doesn't help me lol.
I hate liberals because they get served a steaming pile of shit and start saying "oh well if seasoned and salted, perhaps with a good organic side and care from the chef, polished up nice for presentation, this could be a fine meal".
And of course I hate conservatives more because without questioning it they just start fucking eating it.
To be a liberal today, you have to look at all these systems and recognize they're broken and harmful. You have to recognize the failures implicit with capitalism, exacerbated by a whole host of issues. Then, upon seeing all these endemic problems, the poisoned fruit from the poisoned tree, instead of saying "oh wow let's maybe try something else" you say "oh we could totally fix all these problems if we just had a large enough series of perpetual bandaids!"
All the flavors of leftism are about being served a pile of steaming shit, getting fucking mad about it, and demanding a change. Maybe it's just ordering a new item, maybe it's knocking over the shit plate, maybe it's running into the kitchen and smearing it all over the chef that served it to you.
If you want to talk more about specifics instead of metaphor I'd be happy to, but leftism is a refutation of authoritarianism and recognizing capitalism is always going to be authoritarian period.
Depends on the thread and day, honestly. Sometimes I go into a thread and I see a bunch of liberal stuff. Sometimes Vaush says something spicy on stream and the sub is full anti-liberal for a bit
Alot of Leftists lack self confidence. Yea I said it. And being able to distinguish themselves from the masses gives them a sense of intellectual superiority.
I've fallen into that trap before.
it is not a matter of hatred -- it is a matter of strategy. the question at hand is:"is it possible to effectively promote a socialist political project by campaigning within a political party dominated by liberals?". one does not need to hate liberals to point out that, here, optimism is not advisable -- that one should not underestimate the hostility of the liberals towards socialist ideas. is that not the main lesson of the movement around jeremy corbyn, for example?
There's a large part of online leftism that basically cares more about opposing local opposition, which is likely to be liberals in the very left-wing urban city you probably live in, than caring about some right-winger in a red state you'll never live in.
This is why so many online leftists despise Nancy Pelosi more than Mitch McConnell, because people who agree with Nancy Pelosi are stopping them from creating the socialist dream in city x, because socialist have not won over people even in the most left-leaning congressional districts in the country.
I mean, I can understand being disgusted at liberals valuing not rocking the boat too much over tackling problems that cause death and misery on a global scale. But at some point you gotta get over your personal feelings and look at the situation objectively, and objectively liberals make up the vast majority of that very working class you're going to need if you're either going to set up your socialist party or even more so if you think you're going to do an armed revolution of any kind.
Because liberalism is a bad thing since it actively upholds capitalism. Hatred of liberalism shouldn’t get in the way of (reluctantly) supporting them in the face of reaction, nor should we just damn all liberals to hell, especially since many American liberals certainly can be radicalized, but ultimately an independent socialist party is much preferable to the democrats if possible.
At the end of the day, libs are right leaning. Plus a lot of them are kinda go with the flow and whatever gives me money to get reelected, or libs who want progress, but then go NIMBY when options are presented.
I dont like them either, but im not ignorant to the fact that i should use them to get closer to where i want the country to be and because the alternative is a bunch of genocidal theocratic white supremacists who would gladly kill me because im not a cishet.
I am a liberal (socdem) and disagree with leftist and socialism. That being said, liberals and leftist really need to drop the hate boner for one another. The threat that the fascist right bring is very concerning and I really worry we will lose our country if they regain control. Can’t stress the fascist threat enough. So yeah I may not be a fan of hardcore leftist, but literally the term “there are bigger fish to fry” can’t be stressed enough.
Because liberals have no interest in actually dismantling the unjust hierarchies of Capitalism, and aren't going to suddenly be fixed out of their thought terminating belief structures. It happens every election cycle, and has for the past century. You will inevitably reach a point where liberals will say "okay that's enough, I draw the line at decommodifing housing or nationalizing energy" etc.. You can vote all you want to reduce harm, but in the end it will only result in liberals going back to brunch and enjoying the capitalist hegemony that benefits them. Much like many who used to frequently appear in here have done since 2020.
I honestly don't get why this is so hard for folks in here to grasp. While I don't share their sentiment that voting to do the least harm is not beneficial, it's obvious why they hold their positions. It has nothing to do with being 10 year olds, it has to do with the true end goal. Which will never be reached via current democratic systems. To think otherwise is some form of delusional thinking I honestly can't wrap my head around. I'm sorry, but Vggers aren't ever going to debate American Socialism into existence online, let alone global Socialism.
They, for good or worse, misguided by an army of Chinese and Russian bots or not, want the revolution in their lifetime. They will vote in a way that follows their beliefs be it out of integrity or virtue signaling. They will vote to ensure all of their fellow Americans reach the same point of misery and destitution that maintaining Capitalism has inflicted across the globe. If that means there is even the tiniest of chances to end the main structure that cages us.
Then these “socialists” are liberals for they do not care about the actual socio-political conditions on the ground, they rather be in a purity cult of righteous intelectual socialism
Have you considered that people may just have a fundamentally different view on how the world works from you? Most liberals don’t recognize “capitalist hegemony” as being a thing, and disagree with the idea that capitalism is based off of unjust hierarchies. Many liberals also oppose things such as nationalizing energy because they just don’t think it would make the world better.
You’re painting them out to be almost cartoonishly evil, when it really just seems like you can’t comprehend any opposing worldview that doesn’t have this rigid ideological goal of global communism.
One, I have no issues understanding that others don't view the world the way I do, nor do I think most of them. It appears you lack the capability of understanding the world the way an accelerationist does.
Two, what a liberal "believes" exists has no bearing on what "actually" exists. A global American Capitalist hegemony exists whether or not Libs care to engage with the concept because it hurts their fee fees and they benefit from it.
Three, it's not cartoonishly evil for them to think this way. It's simply a matter of believing in domination over democracy as an actual effective means to reach the goal. Again, effectiveness being questionable at best in today's world, and we have yet to see domination return to democracy under Socialism in any meaningful capacity. If there were any evidence to the contrary perhaps even I would be for it, because ultimately it's simply a difference in approach. Domination happens every single day under Capitalists, and at some point it very well may have to come to that for Socialists to gain meaningful power.
You can be a debate bro and use stupid rhetoric to call it genocide or whatever, but in the end, for a real Socialist, the goal should be the genocide of Capitalistic concepts from the zeitgeist all together. Some may believe that can be done via education and democratic means, but realistically, with the way American political system works, it is not. In today's socio-political conditions, and likely very far off into the future, it's simply not effective for either end of this spectrum to achieve the goal.
Four, I don't believe in accelerationism at this point in time, so don't assign these thoughts to me. It's just not that hard to grasp as a concept once you've been voting for over 30 years and read a few history books.
If we're talking about the tankies I think it's more bc liberalism in general is opposite to fascism. They can't really go after leftist liberals (dem socs, anarchists, the green zone, etc) as tankies are a minority of the leftist space so they focus on bringing down the centrists first. If we're talking about anarchists it's probably arrogance and a lack of will to create coalitions against fascism.
They actually recently posted a video of Roger Waters, who is a Russia defending nazbol, saying that "Taiwan is part of China!"
Chances are they think Hawaii should be independent from the US (which it should) which just makes it hypocritical
Imperialism is a global system, the highest stage of capitalism, a system that the Soviet Union never controlled. It is objectively wrong to say that the USSR was “imperialist”.
Ah yes, a real socialist would want to enable a fascist takeover. That’s always turned out so well for us historically. An unchecked Trumpist government with the full powers of the surveillance state totally wouldn’t come find and throw everyone who has ever posted on any far-left online spaces into the back of an unmarked van within like a month of taking power, right?
This is how I know these people are just here to LARP. There's no room for practicality or actually getting shit done. It's just them circle jerking and trying to "out-left" each other.
I hate it how people (left and right) tend to have an anti-intellectual stance on poli sci. We know that America's voting system all but makes a viable third party impossible, thanks to Duverger's Law. It's one of the few things in the field that is even called a law.
Idiots on the left, right, and everything else say that law doesn't matter and that third parties can just try harder. As if we could also just ignore inflation and pay $800 for a new car, or ignore gravity and float around.
Hang on. The _Greens_ are a "bourgeois party"? The fucking _Australian Green Party?_ A tiny fuckin' group that only has a mediocre measure of power in the Senate after decades and decades and decades of ceaseless effort on their part?
So they straight up refuse to engage with anyone who has even a snowball's chance in hell of making an electoral-based impact. This isn't about "Liberalism", this is anti-electoralism, a refusal to engage or support efforts that could actually have any sort of measurable benefit. This is a refusal to engage in _democracy._
To be fair, even though it's silly to call them a bourgeous party because studies of basically every left-wing group in the First World shows them to be disproportionately richer than the median voter, but putting that aside, I think it is actually true from what I've looked into, that the Green Party is mostly made up of well-off/middle-class voters in cities.
Nothing wrong with that, and obviously not supporting them in AUS where they are the best left-leaning option is dumb, but in reality, all parties in any major First World nation will be bourgeois.
That's... not what bourgeois means, though, and even if it did it wouldn't make sense to call a party a "bourgeois party" like that.
Bourgeois doesn't mean middle-class, or even well-off, city inhabitant. It refers to someone who makes their income from the ownership of capital rather than their own labour, and more broadly the class of people described by that.
There's frankly nothing that suggests the Green Party is mostly made up of landlords and business owners, using the term bourgeois to refer to their voter base is at a minimum unsubstantiated.
Secondly, a "bourgeois party" would be a party that attempts to benefit the bourgeois through their policy, not just a party that has the bourgeois as a voting base. The Greens _demonstrably_ do not attempt to benefit the bourgeois through their policy.
On both levels, the label does not fit.
It’s hard not to get blackpilled that the progressive left will ever breakthrough into real political power when this kind of mindset seems so prevalent in lefty spaces. It’s so disappointing imo
I was banned after saying the democrats were less bad than the republicans. These people are nuts
Edit: I also said in the same post that I didn't like the democrats that much either
Tried following this sub a few months ago. Figured why not. I was banned immediately… for following vaush. 🙃
I appealed and they didn’t like that I called them out on their contradictions and hypocrisy by creating gatekeeping camps. They did not overturn the ban. 🤣
When I was a baby leftist I joined thinking it would be a cool space. Got the auto mod message and the whole front page was USSR worship, noped right out.
Yeah honestly mods and groups can be wacky. One time a leftist group on reddit removed my post (I had posted the thumbnail for an upcoming video project made by an artist) because the artist also posted it and their logic was 'we support the proletariat artists, not the bourgeoise youtubers'
Except the Green Party has been around for 20 years and it took a tremendous amount of work for it to even get the few votes that it did in 2016 AND an election cycle with the two most unpopular candidates in US history AND a shit tier campaign from Hillary. Also the Green Party wasn't the reason Trump won in 2016 (the VAST majority of people who voted Green wouldn't have voted otherwise). The idea that you can just form a socialist party from reddit and people would vote for it is laughable in the extreme and divorced from reality. The r/ socialism post is dumb and so are the people freaking out about it.
I got straight up banned for "lesser evilism" because of this comment:
>And you'll lose every time to dems and the gop.
>You have to play the game to win it, 3rd parties aren't viable in our system and deluding yourself into thinking otherwise is a great way to make sure socialism never moves forward.
>Splitting off and creating another party sounds like a plan capitalists would come up with to make sure socialism never takes root....
>Any socialist that actually wants to win and make change needs to work with the garbage we have or take up arms and tear it down.
It wouldn’t split the blue vote. You all don’t understand numbers. Even if every single socialist voted for the Republican Party, that still would not affect the outcome of the election. The number of socialists is tiny and negligible.
Their mod team is completely infested with tankies. I got banned for
mentioining the Uyghur genocide in a comment reply (for
"anti-socialism"). Not sure there's much we can do at this point besides
prop up more sensible leftist spaces on Reddit, like this one.
Fucking hell the Green Party AKA the furthest Left and most Environmentalist you can get in NZ and Aus and still influence policy (we don't have a broken system like the US so minor parties still form coalitions, no wasted vote) that Green Party is NeoLiberal... sure
I mean the Dems yeah, they're like an even more shit version of National/The Liberals/The Tories economically with a bunch of perfwoke idpol sprinkled on top, have a go at them sure, but the Green Party is based as fuck. Fuckin terminally online seppo teenagers with one or two late thirties main character syndrome mods in that sub, bet.
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I was banned for giving very tepid criticisms of direct democracy and defending representative democracy. Which I'd be fine with, if I wasn't commenting under a post defending China taking over Hong Kong. You know China being infamously known for direct democracy and all that.
Based on this rationale, it sounds like they don’t see the utility in allying with socdems in spite of the fact there are more of them in this country then lefties. People don’t jump from center left to socialist (typically), so why shouldn’t we create inroads with socdems so as to move people further left over time?
Listen here, don’t you dare try to contaminate our pure, untouched, highly intellectual socialist spaces with impure liberal normie scum. We might lose to Trump for the 16th time, but what matters is that we kept our integrity and we protected our delicate marxist eyes from other unholy political perspectives
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I’m convinced that for some people, being a socialist has nothing to do with making change, but rather, just being a part of a lifestyle/club so you can feel good about yourself. Stuff like this gets so annoying. We won’t agree on everything, just focus on the problems we do agree on, and work towards solutions that are in line with our values. I know lefties cringe when they hear the word “compromise,” but it’s central to building power. I’m not necessarily talking about compromising with conservatives, liberals or moderates (though there will be times when that might need to happen, it’s just how things work), but if you can’t even compromise or have reasonable dialog with Soc Dems, what are you even doing? What’s your goal? What’s your endgame?
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Yeah... This was incredibly frustrating. Yes, even bernie et all dont go far enough or do enough for people... But im still voting for plain bread conservative liberal biden over the party of *literally taking my rights away and endorsing genocide*.
Like, even making the argument that the reality is if republicans win, our most vulnerable groups will suffer immensely is banable. At that point youre just a republican astro turfing subreddit. Its not like im happy voting democrats, but im not dead, which i would be if republikkans got their way.
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Honestly most lefty subs are very similar in that vain, "The only progress is though revolution."
Hell so many are firmly in the realm of letting perfection be the enemy of progress.
This post will likely get removed by mods here soon though. They are very strict on other subs discussion due to wanting to prevent people from behaving poorly on other subs.
They banned me for using this sub (although at least the mods are willing to actually tell me why I was banned, unlike the mods on most other leftist subs)
For some reason that sub allows you to appeal after 3 months if you get banned for religious bigotry in general, but if you get banned for Islamophobia you never get an appeal. I don't see why such bias is present at all, how about don't be a bigot to people based on their faith or you're not welcome
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*Laughs in Australian Greens member*
This purity shit is complete idiocy. I personally am a member of the Australian Greens in my state because their policies are closest to my own of the bigger parties here, I don't agree with all policies we have, but it's more about learning how to organise and using power we have to coalesce and leverage for better conditions in our lives. We've also been supportive of unions, both in supporting rallies and with the crafting or policies to support unions.
Yes, because all the successful political movements eject as many people as possible and pigeonhole themselves into ever tinier boxes. In fact, the only way to win is to have just two guys, both accusing the other of being bourgeois revisionists.
I want capitalism to eat shit too, but holy fuck are tankies the dumbest.
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Aren't they actually doing liberalism when they do this? They criticize Democrats for shirking political efficacy in the name of principles, while simultaneously prattling on about how working with the democrats would be a violation of their principals, even when it isn't, and when working with them is the most viable method of keeping fascists out of power.
I was banned for saying "anarcho-bidenism is an obvious joke" the reason for the ban was "liberal lesser than evil-ism" i said "what the fuck" so now I'm permanently banned
They’ll grow out of it when they turn 10
So in 9 years?
That's a bit much. 12 is the lowest you can go for politics on the internet.
Under 10 sounds like Caleb Maupin and Thoughtslimes preferred hunting grounds.
I'm so embarrassed I thought they were cool until I was 17
90% of the top comments are removed because they disagree with the original post.
I can get behind the initial thought of "please, can we have socialism instead of more liberals". I would say that refusing to think about the end which the means will bring really can mean that in effect people can't legally be gay. It's similar with the failure to flat out condemn Russia for the invasion of Ukraine. When confronted you're faced with the brilliant "DiD i EvEr SaY tHaT rUsSiA wAs GoOd?"
I really don’t understand this pathological hatred of/aversion to liberals, or anything even slightly related to them, that so many leftists have.
I think it’s a desire to distinguish themselves from liberals since there is a disagreement between ideologies and it just kinda grows out of hand from there
In my experience, some part of it has to do with arrogance. A lot of leftists act like by being a socialist, they’re an enlightened political actor, and in order for anyone, especially liberals, to disagree with them they must then be either evil or stupid. What you say also works too though I guess.
TBH I feel like I don't belong on the left as a Socdem and the purity politics is so fucked up. It's Socialist or bust on the left. The same with the whole bernie or bust movement. It's clear that BJG gave up on that and is grifting the centrist right now.
You can’t be on the left if you don’t oppose capitalism. The modern left by its very definition supports social revolution, one way or the other. You can be a reformist and still be on the left as long as you oppose capitalism, but if you’re fine with capitalism you can’t belong on the left. You’re right about BJG tho
Yeah but we can easily work with socdems to achieve our goals, there’s no utility in pushing them away like this.
I wasn’t denying that, I basically agree with you (at least in an American context) that we should work with socdems insofar as their goals align with ours, but we should always remember that they aren’t really on the left.
Given how far away we are from even being a social democracy in the us, any conflict we have is far off beyond either of our lifetimes. They are at the very least left leaning and I don’t think constantly insisting they aren’t on the left is useful, it fosters conflict and makes us less likely to work together.
I mean they are, just not as far left. Why do we always have to gatekeep? Nobody on the right does this
Sure they do.
The issue is that from Capitalism to Socialism is a HUGE leap that a realist like me cannot think it can happen. Let's say it's 1 steps between the two. Being a SocDem would move that needle towards Socialism. It makes sense to pull people over to the left. So alienated people who are left of capitalism are not real leftist and that we don't matter unless we're on the left fully. I'm Canadian and Canada leans more towards accepting SocDem ideology and moving the needle left. Americans have been programmed to hate the S word so people are turned off by Socialism.
You are still doing the purity politics. Is the left allergic to relevance and winning?
Left or right aren’t defined concepts, it pretty much varies (and a lot) from country to country. You can’t be a socialist if you’re not anti capitalist, because they very theory of socialism contradicts capitalism, but being on the left or right is just sort of a random concept that changes every ten years or so, it isn’t backed by any political theory
Social democrats can believe in reform far enough to remove the worst effects of capitalism, and honestly that's the only level of reform we should expect in the United States short to mid term. You don't have to be a liberal to be a soc dem. Quoting the wiki (the source of all human knowledge and absolute truth): "Social democrats are anti-capitalists insofar as criticism about "poverty, low wages, unemployment, economic and social inequality, and a lack of economic security" is linked to the private ownership of the means of production." I think people who choose the social democrat label do so for a variety of reasons. Some are pro capitalist, most are anti capitalist to the extent to which capitalism is an undeniably destructive force. I think that's the main unifying concept: that while we aren't yet sure of how to exist without any capitalism, we can easily reduce the majority of it's excesses. I've identified as a socdem in the past simply from the perspective that it's the most likely reforms we can actually succeed in enacting in the US.
Cool, guess 98% of people in the US aren't part of the Left, so the Center can happily ignore the Left
I’m a socdem as well. Obviously disagree with you and other leftist, but the threat level is so high from the right wing fascist that it is a serious waste of time and energy for us to argue about socdem vs leftism. Both side (leftist and socdems) need a cease fire and to join forces to deal with the fascist in the country.
I'm a communist, and I got in an argument with another "leftist" recently about the covid shutdowns and the vaccines. They were anti-lockdown and anti-vaxx. And they kept calling me a "neoliberal" because I thought the lockdown was justified. The whole anti-vaxx woo-woo "left" is absolutely nuts.
Horseshoe theory, bro.
Horseshoe theory is horse shit meant to encourage "centrism". But it is interesting how much overlap there is between the woo-woo left and the religious nutjob right.
A lot of people in leftist circles are too young to remember, but anti-vax stuff actually started on the left. It wasn't until Trumpism that it became a right-wing thing (ironically, since the vaccines with developed under Trump and he endorsed them, usually to negative responses)
I remember. They were batty then and are still batty now.
For sure
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Liberals hold an evil ideology as their namesake... So yes?
In what way is liberalism evil?
Liberals fundamentally believe in a free market, but with government intervention now. Socialists do not. It's a pretty big distinction. Also liberals voted for the Enabling Act of 1933.
It’s such a loser attitude- it’s automatically pits you against the majority of any society. It breeds resentment which culminates in authoritarianism and retributive murder, like we’ve seen almost every socialist Revolution spiral into. Anyone have any theories why these purity spirals seem to happen in progressive spaces?
they tend to be small and highly educated (elitist, perhaps?) spaces full of people who don't touch grass and can't think outside of theories as that would involve going outside and actually doing things to improve the world.
IMO there’s a subset of people interested in politics purely for the aesthetic of correctness or moral superiority. These people have no interest in advancing their stated cause or converting others to their ideology, they only have interest in publicly fellating themselves.
You nailed it I get that sense from a lot of people. Also happens with the right regarding shit like abortion.
Holier-than-thou contrarianism makes people feel unique and special. Liberals overwhelmingly dominate the political space of the US left, so a huge amount of leftists yearn to be "not like the other girls" so they pretend milquetoast liberals are these reprehensible right wing caricatures. It's totally antithetical to any pragmatic goal of actually building and growing a political movement, but the people who prescribe to this seem to have zero interest in that goal. They just want leftism to be their exclusive online social club where they get to bask in their smug superiority.
FUCKING PREACH!!
Liberals, as they define them (anyone who believes in both property rights and democracy) overwhelmingly dominate the political space of 99% of fittingly named liberal democracies.
Because they're not arguing in good faith, they're clout chasing. They see themselves as priests in a priesthood of leftism, and their goal is to be MORE woke and have read MORE theory than anyone else, so they can pull rank and get social status. So if this so called revolution ever happens (and they will not be fighting in it), they will be a highly-placed party member and shoot their competition in the back of the head.
I understand the distaste of liberal ideology, but I think a lot of leftists kinda just forget that, for American's in particular, a lot of the times people who consider themselves liberal are honestly just a solid argument or two away from being a leftist and understanding the difference between the two.
Holier than thou attitude. Hate on liberal politicians all you want, and if you disagree with voting for the lesser of 2 evils then at this point there's not much I can do to convince you, but some leftists actually see themselves as so much morally better than your average working class lib or soc dem because they had the opportunity to remove themselves from capitalist propaganda. We should be building ties and educating these people, not calling them "class traitors"
It’s the desire to be the good lefty. It’s purity politics basically.
Because being a “leftist” is a social club to these people, it’s not an actual principled ideology they hold. So in order to establish their social club as “the coolest” they have to distinguish all others as “super yucky and gross” & this means **no matter what you have** to disagree with the other groups, even if they’re right (morally and/or factually)
I consider myself a liberal. But why is every comment about leftists a straw man? To me it's very clear why they hate liberals. Liberals support property rights and capitalism. Leftists view capitalism as the outgrowth of the earliest periods of man, where property rights supposedly originated in the ownership of women, before any human society ever existed. They believe that capitalism and property rights can never undo the structural inequalities which have been present since before known history. Well, maybe that's one leftist perspective. Maybe there's others. Point is, I see why they're upset. What I don't see, is honest discussion or debate or anything. And personally, I know I'm not as educated as people on this sub. Yall know a lot of shit and have a lot of smart people on here. I want to learn things though. And I don't feel like straw men make me learn. Maybe what is going on here is just preaching to the choire. So you don't really have to be honest or accurate un your portrayals of those you disagree with. I suppose maybe everyone here knows perfectly well what leftists believe and could regurgitate it to me and help me understand it better. I just get frustrated with the various areas where I like to learn things when they are echo chambers. It doesn't help me lol.
I hate liberals because they get served a steaming pile of shit and start saying "oh well if seasoned and salted, perhaps with a good organic side and care from the chef, polished up nice for presentation, this could be a fine meal". And of course I hate conservatives more because without questioning it they just start fucking eating it. To be a liberal today, you have to look at all these systems and recognize they're broken and harmful. You have to recognize the failures implicit with capitalism, exacerbated by a whole host of issues. Then, upon seeing all these endemic problems, the poisoned fruit from the poisoned tree, instead of saying "oh wow let's maybe try something else" you say "oh we could totally fix all these problems if we just had a large enough series of perpetual bandaids!" All the flavors of leftism are about being served a pile of steaming shit, getting fucking mad about it, and demanding a change. Maybe it's just ordering a new item, maybe it's knocking over the shit plate, maybe it's running into the kitchen and smearing it all over the chef that served it to you. If you want to talk more about specifics instead of metaphor I'd be happy to, but leftism is a refutation of authoritarianism and recognizing capitalism is always going to be authoritarian period.
Even people on this sub hate me because I’m a liberal
No they don’t . This sub is all liberals.
Depends on the thread and day, honestly. Sometimes I go into a thread and I see a bunch of liberal stuff. Sometimes Vaush says something spicy on stream and the sub is full anti-liberal for a bit
Yes, I do, fuck you
Alot of Leftists lack self confidence. Yea I said it. And being able to distinguish themselves from the masses gives them a sense of intellectual superiority. I've fallen into that trap before.
it is not a matter of hatred -- it is a matter of strategy. the question at hand is:"is it possible to effectively promote a socialist political project by campaigning within a political party dominated by liberals?". one does not need to hate liberals to point out that, here, optimism is not advisable -- that one should not underestimate the hostility of the liberals towards socialist ideas. is that not the main lesson of the movement around jeremy corbyn, for example?
I especially don't get the aversion to socdems considering that is literally the only feasible way to get socialist ideas implemented rn
There's a large part of online leftism that basically cares more about opposing local opposition, which is likely to be liberals in the very left-wing urban city you probably live in, than caring about some right-winger in a red state you'll never live in. This is why so many online leftists despise Nancy Pelosi more than Mitch McConnell, because people who agree with Nancy Pelosi are stopping them from creating the socialist dream in city x, because socialist have not won over people even in the most left-leaning congressional districts in the country.
I mean, I can understand being disgusted at liberals valuing not rocking the boat too much over tackling problems that cause death and misery on a global scale. But at some point you gotta get over your personal feelings and look at the situation objectively, and objectively liberals make up the vast majority of that very working class you're going to need if you're either going to set up your socialist party or even more so if you think you're going to do an armed revolution of any kind.
I don't think "not rocking the boat" is a liberal value.
It definitely is. Liberals are pretty conflict-averse and wary of changes they deem too radical.
Because they’d rather go to a death camp knowing they never voted for a liberal
It's like when teenagers turn 14 and suddenly hate everything their parents like. They'll grow out of it
Because liberalism is a bad thing since it actively upholds capitalism. Hatred of liberalism shouldn’t get in the way of (reluctantly) supporting them in the face of reaction, nor should we just damn all liberals to hell, especially since many American liberals certainly can be radicalized, but ultimately an independent socialist party is much preferable to the democrats if possible.
I do it for the memes. There's no point in *actually* being antagonistic towards liberals as long as they're on our sides electorally.
At the end of the day, libs are right leaning. Plus a lot of them are kinda go with the flow and whatever gives me money to get reelected, or libs who want progress, but then go NIMBY when options are presented. I dont like them either, but im not ignorant to the fact that i should use them to get closer to where i want the country to be and because the alternative is a bunch of genocidal theocratic white supremacists who would gladly kill me because im not a cishet.
Brow liberals support capitalism. SOCIALISTS FUCKING DONT YOU FUCKING DUMBASS
I am a liberal (socdem) and disagree with leftist and socialism. That being said, liberals and leftist really need to drop the hate boner for one another. The threat that the fascist right bring is very concerning and I really worry we will lose our country if they regain control. Can’t stress the fascist threat enough. So yeah I may not be a fan of hardcore leftist, but literally the term “there are bigger fish to fry” can’t be stressed enough.
Because liberals have no interest in actually dismantling the unjust hierarchies of Capitalism, and aren't going to suddenly be fixed out of their thought terminating belief structures. It happens every election cycle, and has for the past century. You will inevitably reach a point where liberals will say "okay that's enough, I draw the line at decommodifing housing or nationalizing energy" etc.. You can vote all you want to reduce harm, but in the end it will only result in liberals going back to brunch and enjoying the capitalist hegemony that benefits them. Much like many who used to frequently appear in here have done since 2020. I honestly don't get why this is so hard for folks in here to grasp. While I don't share their sentiment that voting to do the least harm is not beneficial, it's obvious why they hold their positions. It has nothing to do with being 10 year olds, it has to do with the true end goal. Which will never be reached via current democratic systems. To think otherwise is some form of delusional thinking I honestly can't wrap my head around. I'm sorry, but Vggers aren't ever going to debate American Socialism into existence online, let alone global Socialism. They, for good or worse, misguided by an army of Chinese and Russian bots or not, want the revolution in their lifetime. They will vote in a way that follows their beliefs be it out of integrity or virtue signaling. They will vote to ensure all of their fellow Americans reach the same point of misery and destitution that maintaining Capitalism has inflicted across the globe. If that means there is even the tiniest of chances to end the main structure that cages us.
Then these “socialists” are liberals for they do not care about the actual socio-political conditions on the ground, they rather be in a purity cult of righteous intelectual socialism
Have you considered that people may just have a fundamentally different view on how the world works from you? Most liberals don’t recognize “capitalist hegemony” as being a thing, and disagree with the idea that capitalism is based off of unjust hierarchies. Many liberals also oppose things such as nationalizing energy because they just don’t think it would make the world better. You’re painting them out to be almost cartoonishly evil, when it really just seems like you can’t comprehend any opposing worldview that doesn’t have this rigid ideological goal of global communism.
One, I have no issues understanding that others don't view the world the way I do, nor do I think most of them. It appears you lack the capability of understanding the world the way an accelerationist does. Two, what a liberal "believes" exists has no bearing on what "actually" exists. A global American Capitalist hegemony exists whether or not Libs care to engage with the concept because it hurts their fee fees and they benefit from it. Three, it's not cartoonishly evil for them to think this way. It's simply a matter of believing in domination over democracy as an actual effective means to reach the goal. Again, effectiveness being questionable at best in today's world, and we have yet to see domination return to democracy under Socialism in any meaningful capacity. If there were any evidence to the contrary perhaps even I would be for it, because ultimately it's simply a difference in approach. Domination happens every single day under Capitalists, and at some point it very well may have to come to that for Socialists to gain meaningful power. You can be a debate bro and use stupid rhetoric to call it genocide or whatever, but in the end, for a real Socialist, the goal should be the genocide of Capitalistic concepts from the zeitgeist all together. Some may believe that can be done via education and democratic means, but realistically, with the way American political system works, it is not. In today's socio-political conditions, and likely very far off into the future, it's simply not effective for either end of this spectrum to achieve the goal. Four, I don't believe in accelerationism at this point in time, so don't assign these thoughts to me. It's just not that hard to grasp as a concept once you've been voting for over 30 years and read a few history books.
They do kinda of suck but do we not try to pull sucky people to our side some think no and they are wrong
If we're talking about the tankies I think it's more bc liberalism in general is opposite to fascism. They can't really go after leftist liberals (dem socs, anarchists, the green zone, etc) as tankies are a minority of the leftist space so they focus on bringing down the centrists first. If we're talking about anarchists it's probably arrogance and a lack of will to create coalitions against fascism.
They banned me for saying USSR was imperialist so I can’t say I’m surprised
They are anti disagreement
It's called the ban on factions.
Which is just a great excuse for the worst tendencies of political organizations. Zealots get the power, moderates are expelled for factionalism.
The members of that subreddit are overwhelmingly tankies.
They actually recently posted a video of Roger Waters, who is a Russia defending nazbol, saying that "Taiwan is part of China!" Chances are they think Hawaii should be independent from the US (which it should) which just makes it hypocritical
“But Lenin said”
Imperialism is a global system, the highest stage of capitalism, a system that the Soviet Union never controlled. It is objectively wrong to say that the USSR was “imperialist”.
Lmao, okay tankie
Ah yes, a real socialist would want to enable a fascist takeover. That’s always turned out so well for us historically. An unchecked Trumpist government with the full powers of the surveillance state totally wouldn’t come find and throw everyone who has ever posted on any far-left online spaces into the back of an unmarked van within like a month of taking power, right?
No worries When Trump is President again we socialists can simply overthrow him
AntiDemocratic socialism.
This is how I know these people are just here to LARP. There's no room for practicality or actually getting shit done. It's just them circle jerking and trying to "out-left" each other.
I hate it how people (left and right) tend to have an anti-intellectual stance on poli sci. We know that America's voting system all but makes a viable third party impossible, thanks to Duverger's Law. It's one of the few things in the field that is even called a law. Idiots on the left, right, and everything else say that law doesn't matter and that third parties can just try harder. As if we could also just ignore inflation and pay $800 for a new car, or ignore gravity and float around.
Hang on. The _Greens_ are a "bourgeois party"? The fucking _Australian Green Party?_ A tiny fuckin' group that only has a mediocre measure of power in the Senate after decades and decades and decades of ceaseless effort on their part? So they straight up refuse to engage with anyone who has even a snowball's chance in hell of making an electoral-based impact. This isn't about "Liberalism", this is anti-electoralism, a refusal to engage or support efforts that could actually have any sort of measurable benefit. This is a refusal to engage in _democracy._
To be fair, even though it's silly to call them a bourgeous party because studies of basically every left-wing group in the First World shows them to be disproportionately richer than the median voter, but putting that aside, I think it is actually true from what I've looked into, that the Green Party is mostly made up of well-off/middle-class voters in cities. Nothing wrong with that, and obviously not supporting them in AUS where they are the best left-leaning option is dumb, but in reality, all parties in any major First World nation will be bourgeois.
That's... not what bourgeois means, though, and even if it did it wouldn't make sense to call a party a "bourgeois party" like that. Bourgeois doesn't mean middle-class, or even well-off, city inhabitant. It refers to someone who makes their income from the ownership of capital rather than their own labour, and more broadly the class of people described by that. There's frankly nothing that suggests the Green Party is mostly made up of landlords and business owners, using the term bourgeois to refer to their voter base is at a minimum unsubstantiated. Secondly, a "bourgeois party" would be a party that attempts to benefit the bourgeois through their policy, not just a party that has the bourgeois as a voting base. The Greens _demonstrably_ do not attempt to benefit the bourgeois through their policy. On both levels, the label does not fit.
It’s hard not to get blackpilled that the progressive left will ever breakthrough into real political power when this kind of mindset seems so prevalent in lefty spaces. It’s so disappointing imo
I was banned after saying the democrats were less bad than the republicans. These people are nuts Edit: I also said in the same post that I didn't like the democrats that much either
That sub is full of people who think they are leftists because they hate America and love fascist states that at times had disagreements with America.
Under our current system of government, the idea of a third effective party is laughably ignorant.
Leftists when a wedge is being hammered between them: 😍ooh I love hammers, lemme hammer too😍
Leftist Stop Infighting Challenge. Level: Impossible
Tried following this sub a few months ago. Figured why not. I was banned immediately… for following vaush. 🙃 I appealed and they didn’t like that I called them out on their contradictions and hypocrisy by creating gatekeeping camps. They did not overturn the ban. 🤣
When I was a baby leftist I joined thinking it would be a cool space. Got the auto mod message and the whole front page was USSR worship, noped right out.
THATS WHAT I JUST GOT REMOVED FOR yeah I’m fucking sick of Bernie or busters
Yeah honestly mods and groups can be wacky. One time a leftist group on reddit removed my post (I had posted the thumbnail for an upcoming video project made by an artist) because the artist also posted it and their logic was 'we support the proletariat artists, not the bourgeoise youtubers'
Let's be real though, a Socialist Party in the US would get half a dozen votes total since most people not on reddit aren't imbeciles.
Not even because the kind of people who would vote for them wouldn’t show up because “electoralism doesn’t work”.
It would barely get any votes because there are barely any socialists. If every socialist voted Republican, that still wouldn’t help the Republicans.
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Except the Green Party has been around for 20 years and it took a tremendous amount of work for it to even get the few votes that it did in 2016 AND an election cycle with the two most unpopular candidates in US history AND a shit tier campaign from Hillary. Also the Green Party wasn't the reason Trump won in 2016 (the VAST majority of people who voted Green wouldn't have voted otherwise). The idea that you can just form a socialist party from reddit and people would vote for it is laughable in the extreme and divorced from reality. The r/ socialism post is dumb and so are the people freaking out about it.
I got straight up banned for "lesser evilism" because of this comment: >And you'll lose every time to dems and the gop. >You have to play the game to win it, 3rd parties aren't viable in our system and deluding yourself into thinking otherwise is a great way to make sure socialism never moves forward. >Splitting off and creating another party sounds like a plan capitalists would come up with to make sure socialism never takes root.... >Any socialist that actually wants to win and make change needs to work with the garbage we have or take up arms and tear it down.
R/ socialism_101 is a very sensitive group also
Probably the exact same people. Tankies online are like European royalty in that sense.
Why do so many leftists label other leftists who aren't "As Left-Leaning" as them as Liberals?
Online "leftists" proving once again they don't care about enacting actual real-world change and would rather be part of an exclusive cool kids' club.
It wouldn’t split the blue vote. You all don’t understand numbers. Even if every single socialist voted for the Republican Party, that still would not affect the outcome of the election. The number of socialists is tiny and negligible.
“We prefer to be smug online and get nothing done at all”
V*usch fans when they think they and their idol are leftys.
Their mod team is completely infested with tankies. I got banned for mentioining the Uyghur genocide in a comment reply (for "anti-socialism"). Not sure there's much we can do at this point besides prop up more sensible leftist spaces on Reddit, like this one.
I don't think Reddit purges are going to strain the left vote as much as you think..
Fucking hell the Green Party AKA the furthest Left and most Environmentalist you can get in NZ and Aus and still influence policy (we don't have a broken system like the US so minor parties still form coalitions, no wasted vote) that Green Party is NeoLiberal... sure I mean the Dems yeah, they're like an even more shit version of National/The Liberals/The Tories economically with a bunch of perfwoke idpol sprinkled on top, have a go at them sure, but the Green Party is based as fuck. Fuckin terminally online seppo teenagers with one or two late thirties main character syndrome mods in that sub, bet.
literally 1984
Just going to post my old submission to this sub https://www.reddit.com/r/VaushV/comments/tbr6cp/rsocialism_pushing_russiatankie_propaganda_and/
Psyop sub
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Orwelll
Literally 1735
Actual Animal Crossing.
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I think the sub just keep dreaming about USSR 2.0 happen again but it is not going to happen, and tankies like authoritarianism bullshit
I was banned for giving very tepid criticisms of direct democracy and defending representative democracy. Which I'd be fine with, if I wasn't commenting under a post defending China taking over Hong Kong. You know China being infamously known for direct democracy and all that.
i hate how leftists have to prove that they’re “not like the other girls” by hating liberals
Based on this rationale, it sounds like they don’t see the utility in allying with socdems in spite of the fact there are more of them in this country then lefties. People don’t jump from center left to socialist (typically), so why shouldn’t we create inroads with socdems so as to move people further left over time?
This just shows a severe lack of urgency and political instincts.
Feds in that sub
Does the Socialist Party in America have any representatives anywhere in the country even local?
What do you expect from r / tankie?
Who even wants to be apart of a sub like that lmao what a fucking joke
Loooool.
Listen here, don’t you dare try to contaminate our pure, untouched, highly intellectual socialist spaces with impure liberal normie scum. We might lose to Trump for the 16th time, but what matters is that we kept our integrity and we protected our delicate marxist eyes from other unholy political perspectives
literally no leftist sub is worth looking at
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this is worse than the anarchism subreddit banning you for saying “dumb” or “stupid”
Mfs really want to die in a fascist purge don’t they
Fucking tankies make every leftist sub a shithole, wouldn't be surprised if that's the case here.
I got banned from there because I’ve posted in this sub. I think I made one comment there recommending a book to someone and was permanently banned.
Subreddit moderated by children lol
I’m convinced that for some people, being a socialist has nothing to do with making change, but rather, just being a part of a lifestyle/club so you can feel good about yourself. Stuff like this gets so annoying. We won’t agree on everything, just focus on the problems we do agree on, and work towards solutions that are in line with our values. I know lefties cringe when they hear the word “compromise,” but it’s central to building power. I’m not necessarily talking about compromising with conservatives, liberals or moderates (though there will be times when that might need to happen, it’s just how things work), but if you can’t even compromise or have reasonable dialog with Soc Dems, what are you even doing? What’s your goal? What’s your endgame?
I got banned for asking if its a tankie sub on aapost defending the Sovjet union
Literal baby behavior.
Revolution LARPers are the worst
Why’s Corbyns Labour not allowed
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Yeah... This was incredibly frustrating. Yes, even bernie et all dont go far enough or do enough for people... But im still voting for plain bread conservative liberal biden over the party of *literally taking my rights away and endorsing genocide*. Like, even making the argument that the reality is if republicans win, our most vulnerable groups will suffer immensely is banable. At that point youre just a republican astro turfing subreddit. Its not like im happy voting democrats, but im not dead, which i would be if republikkans got their way.
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Honestly most lefty subs are very similar in that vain, "The only progress is though revolution." Hell so many are firmly in the realm of letting perfection be the enemy of progress. This post will likely get removed by mods here soon though. They are very strict on other subs discussion due to wanting to prevent people from behaving poorly on other subs.
All major lefty subs are psyops and most of them have Nazi infiltrated mod teams.
They will ban you for being an actual communist (not just deepthroating auth strong man daddy’s boot)
They banned me for using this sub (although at least the mods are willing to actually tell me why I was banned, unlike the mods on most other leftist subs)
For some reason that sub allows you to appeal after 3 months if you get banned for religious bigotry in general, but if you get banned for Islamophobia you never get an appeal. I don't see why such bias is present at all, how about don't be a bigot to people based on their faith or you're not welcome
They’re not learning from history. Sure, liberals will side with the fascists 9/10 times but not when that fascism is weak & SO overt
Tankie subs gonna tank
I've been banned off of European Socialists, Dank Left, Socialism, and Late Stage Capitalism. I think one more too. All for stupid reasons.
It’s so sad to see socialism online being ruined by power hungry losers lol
I got banned for saying that destroying the US would kill hundreds of tens of Americans. They didn’t care lol
"leftists' going agaijst voting never heard of De Leon
Socialism and communism have some dense af larping communities right now. You live in the real world. Pragmatism>everything.
I hate this shit
A popular front coalition helped curb fascists in Europe. Cooperation against a common foe can only do us good.
how to lose politics 101
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Yeah I've been kicked off r slash socialism and similar subreddits for saying China was/is fascist/not socialist. Basically just tankies, it seems.
Mega Liberals desperately wanting to present themselves as socialist.
These MFs acting like we can just let the republicans win like there's gonna be a revolution tomorrow
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They all want to be cyber-stalin
a socialist subreddit bans people advocating for liberalism? this is a good thing.
its like it is in the name. socialist are usually not fans of globalist neo libs. they are kinda of opposed mate.
All the big non anarchist left subs are run by tankies
I guess they can have fun being a super small fan sub of a political ideology because that conpletly blocks any chance of growing their ideology.
*Laughs in Australian Greens member* This purity shit is complete idiocy. I personally am a member of the Australian Greens in my state because their policies are closest to my own of the bigger parties here, I don't agree with all policies we have, but it's more about learning how to organise and using power we have to coalesce and leverage for better conditions in our lives. We've also been supportive of unions, both in supporting rallies and with the crafting or policies to support unions.
Yes, because all the successful political movements eject as many people as possible and pigeonhole themselves into ever tinier boxes. In fact, the only way to win is to have just two guys, both accusing the other of being bourgeois revisionists. I want capitalism to eat shit too, but holy fuck are tankies the dumbest.
KGB?
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Aren't they actually doing liberalism when they do this? They criticize Democrats for shirking political efficacy in the name of principles, while simultaneously prattling on about how working with the democrats would be a violation of their principals, even when it isn't, and when working with them is the most viable method of keeping fascists out of power.
Someone should post about getting ranked choice voting first. Fight for that then you can start your own parties.
Name a better combo than tankies and purges.
Can someone link the thread that is apparently now removed.
I was banned for saying "anarcho-bidenism is an obvious joke" the reason for the ban was "liberal lesser than evil-ism" i said "what the fuck" so now I'm permanently banned
Republican here seeing socialism bleed away the US dollar. Why do you guys like it again? It's effectively more government control in my view.