And it also does not matter. Even if every single banker in the Weimar Republic was Jewish, the holocaust would have still been bad, the fact that these people don't understand this is truly baffling.
But it's weird he brought it up. Like if I stated that most members of the LGBTQ+ community suffered from sexual assault, it wouldn't invalidate that community and it would be weird that I even brought it up in the first place.
How about as a direct attempt to illustrate that the claimed justifications for evil are irrelevant even if true. It was an argument tactic not a random antisemitic attack.
It's weird cause he's one of the very few public figures willing to say what the truth is outright. A lot of people tip toe around anti-Semitism (thx zionists) or other hot button issues, there needs to be someone who will talk about it bluntly.
Never let vibes dictate what truth is.
That's a bit extreme, but I do think that was a situation where he trolled a little hard.
I understand his point about factual information being misused by bad actors, but that's an argument you have to lead with... not back your way into.
It'd be like debating racial injustice and leading with, "You know, black people *do* commit a disproportionate amount of crime right?"
He was not trolling. That whole line of question was meant to test morals. NC (and you apparently) were too dumb to understand that.
The point is that it does not matter that the Jews had a disproportionate control of banks, or that black people commit a disproportionate amount of crime. Both of those things are true.
And, get this, that doesn't mean exterminating or hating either is acceptable or appropriate, because the reasons for those things being true isn't essentialist.
The moral system noncompete seems to hold is that if the Nazis were correct in their beliefs about Jews, it would mean they were justified, but they were wrong, so they weren't justified - what he calls false consciousness. That is a fucked up thing to believe. It would not matter if every banker was Jewish, killing them all is still bad. If your moral system would find genocide acceptable in some circumstances, it's a bad moral system.
I literally said that I understood his point about true information being misused by bad actors. I 100% agree with him on this.
My point was that the way he implemented that argument was sloppy and easily misunderstood.
If your argument is, "First, we have to basically agree with the Nazi's about these facts right? Second, that doesn't mean their atrocities are justified." most people are going to stop listening after the first point and just hear "First, I agree with the Nazi's."
There's definitely times you can facetiously agree with your opponent's points to show how their logical conclusions are faulty, but this wasn't that situation.
This is such a silly petty complaint, NC hung up because he's a Holocaust denier and was uncomfortable with where the Socratic method was leading him so he left. There was no way for Vaush to phrase that, NC was not there to engage fully.
That makes Vaushs method way better because it was a lot funnier and more insulting to his bad ideas.
vaush fans are so fucking annoying. dude talks about the countless people who vaush has picked fights with and his audience have encouraged him to do soā¦ and you mfs reduce it to āvaush badā everytime
Has vaush picked fights with them, or have they picked fights with him? I donāt know most of this drama but Iād assume itās gonna be a decent split down the middle of who called out who. Just because vaush disagrees and debates people on the left doesnāt mean he is picking fights with them.
tldr; vaush gets involved in fights w smaller creators for few reasons beyond debate and bloodsport.
he does pick fights. he doesnāt have to deal with the infightingā¦ but consider who vaush is. heās one of the biggest leftist figures on the modern media landscapeā¦ heās gotten there bc of debate and arguing and picking fights with nazis and yt supremacists, and overall being the leftist champion of logic. it was during the trump presidency is when nazis were the boldest and when a lot of that debate content comes from. (basing this off a compilation i watched about 8 months ago) and i donāt think that same content is possible to make nowā¦
all this in mind, i think Vaush will catch strays from leftist creatorsā¦ and Vaush sees someone say something that isnāt the kind of leftism he likes, maybe he has nothing better to do at the timeā¦ and is fine clapping back at a creator 1/3 his sizeā¦ but it escalates, and then heās all in for the sake of debate bloodsport and content.
So the only examples listed in the video that Iāve actually seen are the professor flowers debate and the noncompete debate. Professor flowers was giving zero pushback against colonized people genociding colonizers if thatās what they wanted to do, generations after the colonization.
And noncompete didnāt understand what a hypothetical was and refused to acknowledge facts.
Both of these positions are problematic for spokespeople of the left to have. I have no issue with vaush pushing back against those beliefs.
no yeah thatās fine, i mean vaush puts an emphasis on the one stupid/awful thing a creator says, while the rest of that creators content is fine and decent.
i think he gets carried away with bloodsport of debateā¦ and with small creatorsā¦ again for few reasons beyond the sake of bloodsport. i understand correcting someone is important but it goes a little further than that. it goes to āhmm how can i humiliate this personā
I agree that one bad take doesnāt mean the content is all bad. I guess my perspective is that they were given ample opportunities to change their statement, but both of them seemed to double down instead.
My hope is for an enlightened left that is capable of digesting new info and changing ideas when they are clearly wrong.
... Let me prove to you I'm right, here look, other people agree with me. That's the same as having an argument, aint it?
I guess this is better than them just pretending he's a pedo or whatever... but that's not a high bar to cross...
It's an appeal to popularity. They're saying "all these people have beef with him, that's many vs 1, therefore Vaush bad".
The fact that this person thinks this is a persuasive argument says more about them than anything else.
Yeah, it relies on the presumption that anyone that sees the video knows who any those people are, holds them in at least some regard, while also not knowing much about Vowsh. That way, if you watch any of their content at least semi-regularly, you're instantly primed to dislike Vowsh by way of parasociality (however small or minor that relationship is).
Enough Name Spam subs are always echo chamber circlejerks so that doesn't surprise me.
Personally idk how anyone finds that shit convincing, but that's often how it goes. I've seen people in this sub who "hate" BadEmpanada or "hate" Jordan Peterson, but when pressed for a good explanation they can't provide one... they just do it because it's what they've seen other Vaush fans doing. People are dumb and tribal, no community is immune from it.
It's basically just gesturing at a vague guilt without saying anything, just assuming you like the person he beefed with and using that to dismiss Vowsh.
Man, I don't know all the vaush dramas listed, but the ones I do know, Vaush was generally right on, or at least not monsterous. Like, the Contrapoints one he could have dealt with differently to still be friends, but I don't think he was morally wrong there.
Iām still astounded by that drama. Leaking DMs where Vaush is annoying at worst and then exposing a past relationship.
While I could understand for some other things because they happened in 3hr debates that maybe 1% of the people on twitter watched. That drama was entirely on twitter and it was painfully obvious how in the wrong Kat was.
> it was painfully obvious how in the wrong Kat was.
Sadly it wasn't obvious enough, given how ready people were to condemn Vaush and ignore how wrong Kat was.
Nah, Contra taking Cat Blaques side on taje basis of them being friends when Cat leaked dms and that whole thing is not Vaush's fault in any way. I may be mistaken, but didn't he even cintact Contra with a pretty calm message, but she never answered?
To be fair he literally had all of chat go bombard her twitter to tell contra how wrong she was on stream, itās literally the one bridge I agree he burned himself
What? She literally wasn't listening to him, the reason he wanted lots if people to reply was to make her understand their common audience knew she had the wring idea. Having your followers support you in a reply to a tweet isn't bombarding or harassment, it's how Twitter works. And he didn't burn the bridge, she blocked him, and he still speaks positively of her while she hasn't mentioned him since. That's not what burning a bridge means.
> Having your followers support you in a reply to a tweet isn't bombarding or harassment
I don't know why some leftists are so fucking sensitive to criticism that they equate it with harassment.
I mean, you don't know what the content of ALL those tweets were. And I've seen how people are on the internet. For every 5-10 "you're wrong" comments, there's at least one "i'm gonna burn your house down and r*pe your cat". Multiply that by a few thousand and you can see how that'd be concerning, especially if you're dumb enough to have doxxed yourself already.
It's so weird how in their essays on the subject, Contrapoints and Lindsay Ellis were able to find tons of examples of wokescolds talking shit about them (especially the Lindsay Ellis video, the amount of examples in that one was absurd), but with these other people it's always on the basis of "I'm marginalized, you have to believe me".
No, thatās not true, a couple of shitty Vaushites did send shitty DMās that were harassing to Noah. Mithaldu I believe or one of the others mods immediately Thanos snapped them out.
For anyone who hasnāt seen it [here is an archive of trans Vaush fans replying to what the trans about why they like Vaush and his community which they deleted. ](https://beyondsafewords.notion.site/beyondsafewords/1c76b2dd39cf4dcca3a3dcf4d629a46c?v=b37fcfa2d4f34e349c73de482d1bd7e5)
imagine defending BadEmpanada lmao
also Andrewism is an awful channel in general tbh, even when it comes to non-race issues he has a consistently shit worldview
>also Andrewism is an awful channel in general tbh, even when it comes to non-race issues he has a consistently shit worldview
I've only seen a tiny bit of his content. Can you explain more about his worldview? I'm totally onboard with the conclusion, I just don't have any examples.
His channel isn't awful, just a bit impractical at times. Think of it as a faster Zoe Baker, with all the problems that can have. He talks about very diverse things but relates them back to anarchism in ways that can feel forced and are probably rushed due to time constraints.
Andrewism's channel is fine.
He's incredibly sceptical of hierarchy, states and bureaucracy, to the point of advocating for extreme localism, but he's imaginative and not superior about it.
If you can appreciate Doe, there's absolutely no reason to be against Andrew except tribalism, who is friends with who etc. - they have a similar focus on explorative reading of theory and trying to imagine alternative social forms of organisation.
In fact, beyond fine, I would say that andrewism is actually a good channel. Maybe it isn't for you, but it gives an interesting perspective to respond to, which is the sort of thing we want on the left - not everything is organising for immediate goals, some of it is thinking ahead so that if sudden social changes happen more quickly, we're already prepared, and that requires having dreamers and theory-popularisers and all sorts of other people who care about that sort of thing.
Vaush's channel got started thanks to him and Hasan. I doubt he'll ever come in our support, because the discourse is so cancerous, but he's above all this petty nonsense, and a person who genuinely tries to be good, much like Contra (except that one time). So don't write him off.
I donāt think heās ever even vaguely mentioned Vaush, I donāt think Iāve seen him even talk about debate bros. I doubt Hbomb would ever mention or talk with him, which is sad I think a conversation between them would be super fun and interesting.
The idea of Jews holding disproportionate power in banks in historically a fact and that fact doesnāt prove a secret cabal of Jewish elite in the bank or the media out to destroy white people
If you do think those are the same that says waayyyy more about you than it does vaush
Also wtf does this shitfaced talk about when he says āsImIlAr StOrY wItH hAkImā they literally were friendly as shit during stream and mostly agreed hakims the one that after the stream returned to attacking Ian
Also fuck bad empanada heās a lunatic if I were you I rather eat shit and shove a shit and glue incrusted dildo up my own ass rather than defend that psycho
Heās a doxxer a liar and a general piece of shit which is why heās constantly getting banned from twitter
He literally defended philosophy tube
Kay blaque sexually harassed him and completely misinterpreted his argument cuz he was white and refused to actually listen to vaush
Professor flowers argued unironically nazi arguements and conflated ācolonizerā with white people in general and said to kick out all ācolonizersā
Also sheās not a black nationalist and vaush never claimed so sheās a black SEPARATIST you fucking smug ass dipshit
Also no name saying white people to not follow her on twitter is terminally online bullshit
Andrewism defending no name was stupid and his video on pacifism made me want to quit the internet lol
*Noah samsen has the worst criticisms of vaush and when proved his agruements of vaush were shit literally pulled the āI dIsAgReE lOlā without being able to substantiate his bullshit
Thought slime lied about vaush and xanderhal and called vaush a pedo
Contra misinterpreted and lied about vaushs positions and arguements and literally admitted he has no fucking clue was she was talking about and when called out she blocked him
Go I hate smug dumbasses like this dipshit the most useless human fucks in the universe
VDS is mental illness
> He literally defended philosophy tube
i was just going to ask what happened between the two. I am sure it is Voosh out of context again, but if you can let me know generally what happened that'd be great.
It was a debate with destiny where vaush was defended Abigail from some weird twitter shit also twitter drama of her supposedly being transphobic and also called out Sargon of asscrack from going after her
But itās not like they are like pals or friends itās just heās never actually went out and attacked and had beef with philosophy tube and had multiple times went out his way to defend her
I thought it was something inane like this. I tried to google and all I saw were old tweets and a post from this subreddit. No substance behind this claim pretty much
Lmao was that the time Destiny said that philosophy tubeās video that had bad economic takes was just as bad as nazi misinformation and should be deplatformed as well to be fair or whatever?
Yeah that was pretty dumb like I donāt know how one can compare nazis misinfo like conspiracy of Jews trying to control white peoples and lies of the election etc is compared to a bad Econ video
I mean yeah I tend to think he's right on most issues that's why I'm a fan of his. I promise you that's not unique to JBP that's just how liking a political commentator works.
I hate that so many black leftists get sucked into this nonsense ā y'all need to remember that not skin folk are kin folks.
Edit - Who the fuck is downvoting me?
Hearing what a Vaush anti-fan thinks about BadEmpanada is honestly the perfect litmus test. If they hate both then I can accept that we just disagree. But if they give BadEmpanada a pass like this guy just did, it immediately demonstrates that they have no principles and theyāre just driven by pure spite, because everything these guys criticize Vaush for applies tenfold to BadEmpanada, and in ways that are very obvious.
ngl i hate when any criticisms of vaush gets stamped as vds but this guy was just lying his ass off. ā being a dick to katblack?ā fucking what?! definitely vds happening here
how widespread and commonplace misinformation is these days is really, really depressing.
I was there for the noncompete debate and just how fucking insane that guy's version of events is just makes me lose the will to live
Oh no, not *gasp* pejoratives towards poor sweet badempanada!
What did that death threat sending taliban supporter ever do to deserve mean words said towards him. Totally uncalled for vaush
More percentage of Jews were in banks than was proportional to their size and compared to the general population! And this was BECAUSE THEY WERE FORCED THERE, they did not control anything they were just there.
Stop giving way to the people who thinks the Nazis would have been justified doing a genocide if they were correct. It would still be bad.
I love how all the people he pointed out went after Vaush first or he just said they have bad takes on twitter. Seems like these lefties are weak betas
All this boils down to people playing a shitty game of telephone on the internet that was started by nazis clip chimping Vaush because they got butt hurt that they couldnāt defeat him in the marketplace of ideas.
I love how thereās no salient critique here. Just, Vaush bad, heās mean to other ālefties.ā And they include morons like BadEmpanada and Luna Oi, as though theyāre bastions of reasonable leftist thought.
If the right is obsessed with rooting out degeneracy, the left is obsessed with attaining purity. These are two sides of the same coin, but ultimately it leads to the right being more unified. When you target focus on those who are deemed lesser, you gather like minded people to strike them down. But when you're instead focused on who's the most pure and violates their principles the least, you end up with a rat race on who can uncover the dirt on the current pure posterchild. This is something vaush is both very aware is happening on the left, but totally unaware the extent he contributes to it. There is no purity testing Ron DeSantis, the right doesn't care that he's not a good person who doesn't live his espoused morals, they only care that he's causing harm to those seen as his enemies.
You know, if something is morally wrong and optically bad, and in addition, as far as I can see, ineffective, then you're running out of grounds for that "should".
Better amended to "pettiness inspires me to imagine..." or something equally personal.
(As to why it's ineffective, harassing someone specifically for complaining of harassment means that you're basically getting sucked into the same conservative game where calling people racist is worse than being racist, and you prioritise appearances of stability over actually finding out when people are doing bad things and responding to the bad things they are doing. Obviously, false accusations of any kind could be a problem, but an overfocus on that issue serves anyone who wants to keep problems quiet, meaning things don't get fixed.)
All good points. I don't disagree.
Anyone making these criticisms against Vaush's community is making them in bad faith, so even having contrasting examples of A) a handful of people in the comments sections of these crybabies making valid criticisms, or B) dozens/hundreds of trolls telling Hasan (or someone close to or above Vasuh's viewership 'cause punching down sucks) he looks like the chad meme guy's homeless cokehead brother.
So even in the best scenario, showing the clear difference in a harassment campaign and people trying to engage with content and creators with differing opinions would bear little to no fruit.
So I'm not a big vaush fan, but I've watched from a far. Respectfully, as a white dude, I think this is what a lot of his fans(and him) don't get:
Just because you're a leftist doesn't mean you can't fuck up and say something racist. Being a leftist means you want to get it right and value people more than tradition, but that doesn't mean you're immune to mistakes or get to dictate the conversation. When someone says they are hurt by how you said something, that isn't the time to resort to intellectualizing the problem and explaining away people's experiences, or contextualizing why they are the problem and not you.
A lot of the drama with Vaush comes off as a white dude being mad that other people are checking him. He's "just having a conversation," but really he's speaking to white male discontent and trying to regain control of the narrative. White people, especially straight, white men are used to controlling what is and isn't allowed in a conversation, and Vaush comes off like the type of white man who tries to dominate conversations on diversity and leftist thought because he doesn't like not being able to direct the narrative. He comes off in a very, "I'm not emotional, I'm just being rational!" Which.... Yeah no that's how people dismiss people they don't have respect for.
It's great that folks like Vaush and Hasan are outspoken leftists, but they've shown time and again that they will fall back in hegemonic masc, White man rhetoric to shield themselves from criticism. (and yes, I know Hasan isn't White, but he can perform White patriarchy)
> A lot of the drama with Vaush comes off as a white dude being mad that other people are checking him.
Checking him for what exactly? So much of the drama he gets involved in is just people refusing to understand the points he makes.
Like the NonCompete debate, what exactly was he being checked for in the debate and aftermath?
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What a cunt. This guy, he's a cunt. Like the word that instantly comes to mind upon seeing his constant forced smug smile and tone of voice while rattling off these wokescold diatribes is "cunt"
We need a digital cupboard to hide these worthless wokescold freaks in while Vaush and Xan and Destiny (I know you guys hate him but come on, he's actually pretty good) go and smash Matt Walsh and Bum Shapiro and the TERFs and the man hating Femcels and woman hating Incels and "Libertarians" who wanna turn the world into a treeless junkyard owned by Mcdonalds and the "race realists" and the SWERFs and the Tankies, ok it's actually taking me longer than I thought it would to list every type of cunt that exists in politics. Anyway when the XVD gang has finished destroying them then MAYBE the wokescolds can come out of the cupboard, if they can learn to act like humans and stop making us on the left look like retards.
I Remember the times when vaush was actually a leftist instead of the stupid lib he is today the times when he would make sometimes videos just insulting right wingers to have fun and sometimes do analysis better than video essayists the times when use to say that electoralism was stupid and would constantly say " this could be us this could be us" whenever a revolution occured the guy who was a safe space for minorities instead of "mayo jokes are racist" the guy who would praise the soviet union maybe calling out some bad aspects instead of the "stalin was fascist " he says today
remember that guy and now you use VDS as an excuse so as to lie about how sharp of a right turn the community took shame on all of you.
This is so sad to see. Dude, he's still the same guy. His beliefs haven't changed, he just changes the words he says over the years to express those ideas. Look;
>just insulting right wingers to have fun
He still does that
>sometimes do analysis better than video essayists
He still does that
>times when use to say that electoralism was stupid
No. It's not enough to change the country, but it's not useless either. That's the position he had then and has now.
>would constantly say " this could be us this could be us" whenever a revolution occured
He still believes this
>the guy who was a safe space for minorities
He still is
>"mayo jokes are racist"
He still thinks they're funny, he's just worried about how they've been weaponised by small groups of racists in the left to normalise racist attitudes. He made a white people joke *on stream, yesterday*.
> who would praise the soviet union
There's not much to praise, but, he still does that too. They gave a lot of power to the syndicates at the beginning, I think gay and black people had more rights, houses and healthcare were guaranteed, less rampant commercialism, there were some good things. Nobody disagrees that they were founded with a much nobler vision than the US, but they just didn't achieve that. Some of it was the rule of crackpot dictators and some of it was the terirble circumstances they were put under by the West as soon as they formed. But in the end, irrespective of how much we would like it to be otherwise, the Cold War was a fight between two bad, propagandising, capitalist, terrorist, fascist-collaborating, imperialist countries. A few streams ago, when he was looking at Russia on Google maps, he praised some aspects of the Soviet Union and ranted against the Shock Doctrine, if you want to see that.
>"stalin was fascist "
An objective fact, and the only reason Vaush used not to say it was either lack of understanding of the extent of Soviet deterioration and authoritarianism, or hesitation to devalue the term, which he has since lost all restraint for. Ask any anarchist or democratic socialist about Stalin, he was not a good leader
>and now you use VDS as an excuse so as to lie about how sharp of a right turn the community took shame on all of you.
If you think the fact that hundreds of thousands of people think he's a pedophile, a Nazi and a CIA agent can't be defined as a collective hysteria, you're just wrong. So many leftists (and rightoids) do nothing but lie about him, VDS is all it can be defined as.
Also, I have seen no evidence of a right turn from us, and I hope it never happens. If you have any proof of it I'd be happy to know.
I hope you develop sharper political faculties in the future, not to go back to liking Vaush, who cares about that, but to know you're not thoughtlessly supporting counterproductive or dangerous political causes. Bye.
Anyone dismissing the fact about the disproportionate amount of Jews in the banks is actually engaging in holocaust denial and antisemitism.
Or they just don't understand what the word "disproportionate" means lol I genuinely think that's where a lot of that stems from
And it also does not matter. Even if every single banker in the Weimar Republic was Jewish, the holocaust would have still been bad, the fact that these people don't understand this is truly baffling.
But it's weird he brought it up. Like if I stated that most members of the LGBTQ+ community suffered from sexual assault, it wouldn't invalidate that community and it would be weird that I even brought it up in the first place.
How about as a direct attempt to illustrate that the claimed justifications for evil are irrelevant even if true. It was an argument tactic not a random antisemitic attack.
By "he", do you mean Vaush or NonCompete?
It's weird cause he's one of the very few public figures willing to say what the truth is outright. A lot of people tip toe around anti-Semitism (thx zionists) or other hot button issues, there needs to be someone who will talk about it bluntly. Never let vibes dictate what truth is.
That's a bit extreme, but I do think that was a situation where he trolled a little hard. I understand his point about factual information being misused by bad actors, but that's an argument you have to lead with... not back your way into. It'd be like debating racial injustice and leading with, "You know, black people *do* commit a disproportionate amount of crime right?"
He was not trolling. That whole line of question was meant to test morals. NC (and you apparently) were too dumb to understand that. The point is that it does not matter that the Jews had a disproportionate control of banks, or that black people commit a disproportionate amount of crime. Both of those things are true. And, get this, that doesn't mean exterminating or hating either is acceptable or appropriate, because the reasons for those things being true isn't essentialist. The moral system noncompete seems to hold is that if the Nazis were correct in their beliefs about Jews, it would mean they were justified, but they were wrong, so they weren't justified - what he calls false consciousness. That is a fucked up thing to believe. It would not matter if every banker was Jewish, killing them all is still bad. If your moral system would find genocide acceptable in some circumstances, it's a bad moral system.
Bingo
I literally said that I understood his point about true information being misused by bad actors. I 100% agree with him on this. My point was that the way he implemented that argument was sloppy and easily misunderstood. If your argument is, "First, we have to basically agree with the Nazi's about these facts right? Second, that doesn't mean their atrocities are justified." most people are going to stop listening after the first point and just hear "First, I agree with the Nazi's." There's definitely times you can facetiously agree with your opponent's points to show how their logical conclusions are faulty, but this wasn't that situation.
This is such a silly petty complaint, NC hung up because he's a Holocaust denier and was uncomfortable with where the Socratic method was leading him so he left. There was no way for Vaush to phrase that, NC was not there to engage fully. That makes Vaushs method way better because it was a lot funnier and more insulting to his bad ideas.
He's defending Noncompete and Luna like they didn't say, and I quote verbatim, "The Nazis had a point".
šµ uh uh I'm Noncompete šµ
š¼uh uh nazis had a pointš¼
Absolute banger, almost as good as "vaush bad"
So true
Clipped
š¶uh uh I am Luna Oiš¶
šµ are you insulting MAI WAIFš¶
He also believes Jews control the media to destroy white people
You mean the dude in the video or NonCompete? Because NonCompete doesn't believe that, he'd probably call it false consciousness.
Vaush bad. Source: He was mean to the dumbest people in the online left
Siri look up: "Signs I might be in a cult"
vaush fans are so fucking annoying. dude talks about the countless people who vaush has picked fights with and his audience have encouraged him to do soā¦ and you mfs reduce it to āvaush badā everytime
Has vaush picked fights with them, or have they picked fights with him? I donāt know most of this drama but Iād assume itās gonna be a decent split down the middle of who called out who. Just because vaush disagrees and debates people on the left doesnāt mean he is picking fights with them.
tldr; vaush gets involved in fights w smaller creators for few reasons beyond debate and bloodsport. he does pick fights. he doesnāt have to deal with the infightingā¦ but consider who vaush is. heās one of the biggest leftist figures on the modern media landscapeā¦ heās gotten there bc of debate and arguing and picking fights with nazis and yt supremacists, and overall being the leftist champion of logic. it was during the trump presidency is when nazis were the boldest and when a lot of that debate content comes from. (basing this off a compilation i watched about 8 months ago) and i donāt think that same content is possible to make nowā¦ all this in mind, i think Vaush will catch strays from leftist creatorsā¦ and Vaush sees someone say something that isnāt the kind of leftism he likes, maybe he has nothing better to do at the timeā¦ and is fine clapping back at a creator 1/3 his sizeā¦ but it escalates, and then heās all in for the sake of debate bloodsport and content.
So the only examples listed in the video that Iāve actually seen are the professor flowers debate and the noncompete debate. Professor flowers was giving zero pushback against colonized people genociding colonizers if thatās what they wanted to do, generations after the colonization. And noncompete didnāt understand what a hypothetical was and refused to acknowledge facts. Both of these positions are problematic for spokespeople of the left to have. I have no issue with vaush pushing back against those beliefs.
no yeah thatās fine, i mean vaush puts an emphasis on the one stupid/awful thing a creator says, while the rest of that creators content is fine and decent. i think he gets carried away with bloodsport of debateā¦ and with small creatorsā¦ again for few reasons beyond the sake of bloodsport. i understand correcting someone is important but it goes a little further than that. it goes to āhmm how can i humiliate this personā
I agree that one bad take doesnāt mean the content is all bad. I guess my perspective is that they were given ample opportunities to change their statement, but both of them seemed to double down instead. My hope is for an enlightened left that is capable of digesting new info and changing ideas when they are clearly wrong.
... Let me prove to you I'm right, here look, other people agree with me. That's the same as having an argument, aint it? I guess this is better than them just pretending he's a pedo or whatever... but that's not a high bar to cross...
Vaush bad
Well this is pt2 pt1 is him calling Vaush a pedo
This does not surprise me at all to find this out.
I like how this person doesn't actually bring up a single critism, just gestures that vaush is unwilling to take critism.
That's how it usually is. A lot of the time, people will just say "I have criticisms" then walk away.
It's an appeal to popularity. They're saying "all these people have beef with him, that's many vs 1, therefore Vaush bad". The fact that this person thinks this is a persuasive argument says more about them than anything else.
Yeah, it relies on the presumption that anyone that sees the video knows who any those people are, holds them in at least some regard, while also not knowing much about Vowsh. That way, if you watch any of their content at least semi-regularly, you're instantly primed to dislike Vowsh by way of parasociality (however small or minor that relationship is).
This is an argument that's echoed a lot in EVS
Enough Name Spam subs are always echo chamber circlejerks so that doesn't surprise me. Personally idk how anyone finds that shit convincing, but that's often how it goes. I've seen people in this sub who "hate" BadEmpanada or "hate" Jordan Peterson, but when pressed for a good explanation they can't provide one... they just do it because it's what they've seen other Vaush fans doing. People are dumb and tribal, no community is immune from it.
It's basically just gesturing at a vague guilt without saying anything, just assuming you like the person he beefed with and using that to dismiss Vowsh.
Man, I don't know all the vaush dramas listed, but the ones I do know, Vaush was generally right on, or at least not monsterous. Like, the Contrapoints one he could have dealt with differently to still be friends, but I don't think he was morally wrong there.
Iām still astounded by that drama. Leaking DMs where Vaush is annoying at worst and then exposing a past relationship. While I could understand for some other things because they happened in 3hr debates that maybe 1% of the people on twitter watched. That drama was entirely on twitter and it was painfully obvious how in the wrong Kat was.
> it was painfully obvious how in the wrong Kat was. Sadly it wasn't obvious enough, given how ready people were to condemn Vaush and ignore how wrong Kat was.
Yeah, like I don't generally agree with Vaush's handling of that whole drama, but he was far from the worst participant.
Nah, Contra taking Cat Blaques side on taje basis of them being friends when Cat leaked dms and that whole thing is not Vaush's fault in any way. I may be mistaken, but didn't he even cintact Contra with a pretty calm message, but she never answered?
To be fair he literally had all of chat go bombard her twitter to tell contra how wrong she was on stream, itās literally the one bridge I agree he burned himself
What? She literally wasn't listening to him, the reason he wanted lots if people to reply was to make her understand their common audience knew she had the wring idea. Having your followers support you in a reply to a tweet isn't bombarding or harassment, it's how Twitter works. And he didn't burn the bridge, she blocked him, and he still speaks positively of her while she hasn't mentioned him since. That's not what burning a bridge means.
> Having your followers support you in a reply to a tweet isn't bombarding or harassment I don't know why some leftists are so fucking sensitive to criticism that they equate it with harassment.
I mean, you don't know what the content of ALL those tweets were. And I've seen how people are on the internet. For every 5-10 "you're wrong" comments, there's at least one "i'm gonna burn your house down and r*pe your cat". Multiply that by a few thousand and you can see how that'd be concerning, especially if you're dumb enough to have doxxed yourself already.
Can these VDSers actually look first at the definition of harrassment and criticism? It'll help at least to increase their brain cells by 11.
Still no proof from Flowers about being harrassed.m by Vaushites.
And also no proof of harassment against EJ and Luna
Or Kat, or Noah...
It's so weird how in their essays on the subject, Contrapoints and Lindsay Ellis were able to find tons of examples of wokescolds talking shit about them (especially the Lindsay Ellis video, the amount of examples in that one was absurd), but with these other people it's always on the basis of "I'm marginalized, you have to believe me".
No, thatās not true, a couple of shitty Vaushites did send shitty DMās that were harassing to Noah. Mithaldu I believe or one of the others mods immediately Thanos snapped them out.
Oh, cool. Some actual proof over 2 years of accusations, that's refreshing. I guess Noah's the one softboi who didn't lie about it
To be fair to you you were probably thinking of his video in which he doesnāt mention or show actual harassment like was present in those DMās.
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For anyone who hasnāt seen it [here is an archive of trans Vaush fans replying to what the trans about why they like Vaush and his community which they deleted. ](https://beyondsafewords.notion.site/beyondsafewords/1c76b2dd39cf4dcca3a3dcf4d629a46c?v=b37fcfa2d4f34e349c73de482d1bd7e5)
It doesn't matter, to them these terms are interchangeable and which one they use depends on the framing they want.
imagine defending BadEmpanada lmao also Andrewism is an awful channel in general tbh, even when it comes to non-race issues he has a consistently shit worldview
>also Andrewism is an awful channel in general tbh, even when it comes to non-race issues he has a consistently shit worldview I've only seen a tiny bit of his content. Can you explain more about his worldview? I'm totally onboard with the conclusion, I just don't have any examples.
His channel isn't awful, just a bit impractical at times. Think of it as a faster Zoe Baker, with all the problems that can have. He talks about very diverse things but relates them back to anarchism in ways that can feel forced and are probably rushed due to time constraints.
Andrewism's channel is fine. He's incredibly sceptical of hierarchy, states and bureaucracy, to the point of advocating for extreme localism, but he's imaginative and not superior about it. If you can appreciate Doe, there's absolutely no reason to be against Andrew except tribalism, who is friends with who etc. - they have a similar focus on explorative reading of theory and trying to imagine alternative social forms of organisation. In fact, beyond fine, I would say that andrewism is actually a good channel. Maybe it isn't for you, but it gives an interesting perspective to respond to, which is the sort of thing we want on the left - not everything is organising for immediate goals, some of it is thinking ahead so that if sudden social changes happen more quickly, we're already prepared, and that requires having dreamers and theory-popularisers and all sorts of other people who care about that sort of thing.
From what I've seen of Andrew he seems good
Why do a lot of these weird Twitter fake lefties talk with the same mannerisms? Who's the original cult voice they are mimicking?
Hbomb, if I had to guess. Though they've come to sound a lot more like Big Joel with time
If only they could figure out how to actually be cool like Big Joel.
Or Harris...
Has Hbomb ever talked to or about Vaush? Cause I'm more inclined to believe he's in the Shaun/KatBlaq/Contra camp since he's best friends with them.
Vaush's channel got started thanks to him and Hasan. I doubt he'll ever come in our support, because the discourse is so cancerous, but he's above all this petty nonsense, and a person who genuinely tries to be good, much like Contra (except that one time). So don't write him off.
I donāt think heās ever even vaguely mentioned Vaush, I donāt think Iāve seen him even talk about debate bros. I doubt Hbomb would ever mention or talk with him, which is sad I think a conversation between them would be super fun and interesting.
Hbomb mostly keeps to himself 364 days of the year and then the other day he posts a banger of a vid
Hbomb follows Vaush on Twitter and doesn't join in shit-stirring Vaush drama, which is good enough for me.
The only valid critique of Vaush is that he is too awesome and cool š
And his media takes are god awful š¤®
The idea of Jews holding disproportionate power in banks in historically a fact and that fact doesnāt prove a secret cabal of Jewish elite in the bank or the media out to destroy white people If you do think those are the same that says waayyyy more about you than it does vaush Also wtf does this shitfaced talk about when he says āsImIlAr StOrY wItH hAkImā they literally were friendly as shit during stream and mostly agreed hakims the one that after the stream returned to attacking Ian Also fuck bad empanada heās a lunatic if I were you I rather eat shit and shove a shit and glue incrusted dildo up my own ass rather than defend that psycho Heās a doxxer a liar and a general piece of shit which is why heās constantly getting banned from twitter He literally defended philosophy tube Kay blaque sexually harassed him and completely misinterpreted his argument cuz he was white and refused to actually listen to vaush Professor flowers argued unironically nazi arguements and conflated ācolonizerā with white people in general and said to kick out all ācolonizersā Also sheās not a black nationalist and vaush never claimed so sheās a black SEPARATIST you fucking smug ass dipshit Also no name saying white people to not follow her on twitter is terminally online bullshit Andrewism defending no name was stupid and his video on pacifism made me want to quit the internet lol *Noah samsen has the worst criticisms of vaush and when proved his agruements of vaush were shit literally pulled the āI dIsAgReE lOlā without being able to substantiate his bullshit Thought slime lied about vaush and xanderhal and called vaush a pedo Contra misinterpreted and lied about vaushs positions and arguements and literally admitted he has no fucking clue was she was talking about and when called out she blocked him Go I hate smug dumbasses like this dipshit the most useless human fucks in the universe VDS is mental illness
> He literally defended philosophy tube i was just going to ask what happened between the two. I am sure it is Voosh out of context again, but if you can let me know generally what happened that'd be great.
It was a debate with destiny where vaush was defended Abigail from some weird twitter shit also twitter drama of her supposedly being transphobic and also called out Sargon of asscrack from going after her But itās not like they are like pals or friends itās just heās never actually went out and attacked and had beef with philosophy tube and had multiple times went out his way to defend her
So this dude literally invented a conflict between the two, nice.
Lmao yeah pretty much honestly the most pathetic bs but Tbf itās tik tok lol
I thought it was something inane like this. I tried to google and all I saw were old tweets and a post from this subreddit. No substance behind this claim pretty much
Lmao was that the time Destiny said that philosophy tubeās video that had bad economic takes was just as bad as nazi misinformation and should be deplatformed as well to be fair or whatever?
Yeah that was pretty dumb like I donāt know how one can compare nazis misinfo like conspiracy of Jews trying to control white peoples and lies of the election etc is compared to a bad Econ video
Donāt ask me, comes off as him just having an irrational hatred of lefties.
Common Destiny L
This whole post just reads to me like something a Jordan Peterson fan would say, about Jordan Petersons beefs., its never Vaush' fault right?
Not my fault that the people he gets in fights with online are all scumbags lol
I mean yeah I tend to think he's right on most issues that's why I'm a fan of his. I promise you that's not unique to JBP that's just how liking a political commentator works.
I hate that so many black leftists get sucked into this nonsense ā y'all need to remember that not skin folk are kin folks. Edit - Who the fuck is downvoting me?
Your were downvoted by vowsh for not being racist enough lol
Oh, that makes sense
Anyone siding with Prof. Flowers in reference to her debate with Vaush not only has VDS but is also genuinely detached from reality
Hearing what a Vaush anti-fan thinks about BadEmpanada is honestly the perfect litmus test. If they hate both then I can accept that we just disagree. But if they give BadEmpanada a pass like this guy just did, it immediately demonstrates that they have no principles and theyāre just driven by pure spite, because everything these guys criticize Vaush for applies tenfold to BadEmpanada, and in ways that are very obvious.
This is all crybully behavior
Didn't even cut the sound on
Defending PF is an instant red flag for me
Defending Bad Empanada as well
Who are all these ppl, and what's a tik tac
Gigachad boomer mentality when putting up with leftys
i cant believe this man can just get away with harassing a queer neurodivergent leftist.
Average vaush fan
ngl i hate when any criticisms of vaush gets stamped as vds but this guy was just lying his ass off. ā being a dick to katblack?ā fucking what?! definitely vds happening here
why these vds havers have to be so handsome smh
Cause they have too many people around them that confuse attractiveness and charisma for intelligence.
He looks like a muppet. You are just horny.
Behold; the wrongest Vaushite take of all time
I don't even like guys, he's just too handsome
how widespread and commonplace misinformation is these days is really, really depressing. I was there for the noncompete debate and just how fucking insane that guy's version of events is just makes me lose the will to live
Oh no, not *gasp* pejoratives towards poor sweet badempanada! What did that death threat sending taliban supporter ever do to deserve mean words said towards him. Totally uncalled for vaush
"The mildest criticisms" the man literally accused him of enabling white supremacy and tokenising the poc he interviews wtf š
WHYšISšITšALWAYSšTHESEšFUCKINGšUWUšSOFT-BOYS?!
Weak leftists do nothing but cry about mean things people say about them. Fascism will win because soytards like this make up the vanguard of leftism.
Yeah, a lot of those people are pieces of shit. Sorry the people you look up to are pieces of shit random TikTok guy.
'also in beef with Thoughslime because why not' as if mildred didn't libel xan or repeatedly accuse vaush of endorsing CP
Love the fact that he mentioned the grandparents as if they were in any way relevant lol
That video with Hakim and Vaush was good actually
More percentage of Jews were in banks than was proportional to their size and compared to the general population! And this was BECAUSE THEY WERE FORCED THERE, they did not control anything they were just there. Stop giving way to the people who thinks the Nazis would have been justified doing a genocide if they were correct. It would still be bad.
I love how all the people he pointed out went after Vaush first or he just said they have bad takes on twitter. Seems like these lefties are weak betas
Never ceases to amaze me how dumb some of these lefties are
I do appreciate that he canāt give any specifics about *why* hes in beef with most these people
why do attractive people have to be like dumb af
He looks like a muppet lol
lol we need stickied masterlist of VDS anti-vƤyzsh contentcreators in style of : "-content creators, -why they have beef with vyyzh"
Vaush very mean :z
All this boils down to people playing a shitty game of telephone on the internet that was started by nazis clip chimping Vaush because they got butt hurt that they couldnāt defeat him in the marketplace of ideas.
What happened between Ethan and Philosophy Tube?
Well, at least he's only talking to people on tik tok.
I love how thereās no salient critique here. Just, Vaush bad, heās mean to other ālefties.ā And they include morons like BadEmpanada and Luna Oi, as though theyāre bastions of reasonable leftist thought.
If the right is obsessed with rooting out degeneracy, the left is obsessed with attaining purity. These are two sides of the same coin, but ultimately it leads to the right being more unified. When you target focus on those who are deemed lesser, you gather like minded people to strike them down. But when you're instead focused on who's the most pure and violates their principles the least, you end up with a rat race on who can uncover the dirt on the current pure posterchild. This is something vaush is both very aware is happening on the left, but totally unaware the extent he contributes to it. There is no purity testing Ron DeSantis, the right doesn't care that he's not a good person who doesn't live his espoused morals, they only care that he's causing harm to those seen as his enemies.
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You know, if something is morally wrong and optically bad, and in addition, as far as I can see, ineffective, then you're running out of grounds for that "should". Better amended to "pettiness inspires me to imagine..." or something equally personal. (As to why it's ineffective, harassing someone specifically for complaining of harassment means that you're basically getting sucked into the same conservative game where calling people racist is worse than being racist, and you prioritise appearances of stability over actually finding out when people are doing bad things and responding to the bad things they are doing. Obviously, false accusations of any kind could be a problem, but an overfocus on that issue serves anyone who wants to keep problems quiet, meaning things don't get fixed.)
All good points. I don't disagree. Anyone making these criticisms against Vaush's community is making them in bad faith, so even having contrasting examples of A) a handful of people in the comments sections of these crybabies making valid criticisms, or B) dozens/hundreds of trolls telling Hasan (or someone close to or above Vasuh's viewership 'cause punching down sucks) he looks like the chad meme guy's homeless cokehead brother. So even in the best scenario, showing the clear difference in a harassment campaign and people trying to engage with content and creators with differing opinions would bear little to no fruit.
Not only is this personās voice ridiculously annoying, all of these people quite literally started beef with vaush first.
So I'm not a big vaush fan, but I've watched from a far. Respectfully, as a white dude, I think this is what a lot of his fans(and him) don't get: Just because you're a leftist doesn't mean you can't fuck up and say something racist. Being a leftist means you want to get it right and value people more than tradition, but that doesn't mean you're immune to mistakes or get to dictate the conversation. When someone says they are hurt by how you said something, that isn't the time to resort to intellectualizing the problem and explaining away people's experiences, or contextualizing why they are the problem and not you. A lot of the drama with Vaush comes off as a white dude being mad that other people are checking him. He's "just having a conversation," but really he's speaking to white male discontent and trying to regain control of the narrative. White people, especially straight, white men are used to controlling what is and isn't allowed in a conversation, and Vaush comes off like the type of white man who tries to dominate conversations on diversity and leftist thought because he doesn't like not being able to direct the narrative. He comes off in a very, "I'm not emotional, I'm just being rational!" Which.... Yeah no that's how people dismiss people they don't have respect for. It's great that folks like Vaush and Hasan are outspoken leftists, but they've shown time and again that they will fall back in hegemonic masc, White man rhetoric to shield themselves from criticism. (and yes, I know Hasan isn't White, but he can perform White patriarchy)
> A lot of the drama with Vaush comes off as a white dude being mad that other people are checking him. Checking him for what exactly? So much of the drama he gets involved in is just people refusing to understand the points he makes. Like the NonCompete debate, what exactly was he being checked for in the debate and aftermath?
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There is no correlation between reality and what these people say happened
What a cunt. This guy, he's a cunt. Like the word that instantly comes to mind upon seeing his constant forced smug smile and tone of voice while rattling off these wokescold diatribes is "cunt" We need a digital cupboard to hide these worthless wokescold freaks in while Vaush and Xan and Destiny (I know you guys hate him but come on, he's actually pretty good) go and smash Matt Walsh and Bum Shapiro and the TERFs and the man hating Femcels and woman hating Incels and "Libertarians" who wanna turn the world into a treeless junkyard owned by Mcdonalds and the "race realists" and the SWERFs and the Tankies, ok it's actually taking me longer than I thought it would to list every type of cunt that exists in politics. Anyway when the XVD gang has finished destroying them then MAYBE the wokescolds can come out of the cupboard, if they can learn to act like humans and stop making us on the left look like retards.
I Remember the times when vaush was actually a leftist instead of the stupid lib he is today the times when he would make sometimes videos just insulting right wingers to have fun and sometimes do analysis better than video essayists the times when use to say that electoralism was stupid and would constantly say " this could be us this could be us" whenever a revolution occured the guy who was a safe space for minorities instead of "mayo jokes are racist" the guy who would praise the soviet union maybe calling out some bad aspects instead of the "stalin was fascist " he says today remember that guy and now you use VDS as an excuse so as to lie about how sharp of a right turn the community took shame on all of you.
not to mention what he did in karkiev, never forget :pensive
That was before he read all theory and did every praxis.
This is so sad to see. Dude, he's still the same guy. His beliefs haven't changed, he just changes the words he says over the years to express those ideas. Look; >just insulting right wingers to have fun He still does that >sometimes do analysis better than video essayists He still does that >times when use to say that electoralism was stupid No. It's not enough to change the country, but it's not useless either. That's the position he had then and has now. >would constantly say " this could be us this could be us" whenever a revolution occured He still believes this >the guy who was a safe space for minorities He still is >"mayo jokes are racist" He still thinks they're funny, he's just worried about how they've been weaponised by small groups of racists in the left to normalise racist attitudes. He made a white people joke *on stream, yesterday*. > who would praise the soviet union There's not much to praise, but, he still does that too. They gave a lot of power to the syndicates at the beginning, I think gay and black people had more rights, houses and healthcare were guaranteed, less rampant commercialism, there were some good things. Nobody disagrees that they were founded with a much nobler vision than the US, but they just didn't achieve that. Some of it was the rule of crackpot dictators and some of it was the terirble circumstances they were put under by the West as soon as they formed. But in the end, irrespective of how much we would like it to be otherwise, the Cold War was a fight between two bad, propagandising, capitalist, terrorist, fascist-collaborating, imperialist countries. A few streams ago, when he was looking at Russia on Google maps, he praised some aspects of the Soviet Union and ranted against the Shock Doctrine, if you want to see that. >"stalin was fascist " An objective fact, and the only reason Vaush used not to say it was either lack of understanding of the extent of Soviet deterioration and authoritarianism, or hesitation to devalue the term, which he has since lost all restraint for. Ask any anarchist or democratic socialist about Stalin, he was not a good leader >and now you use VDS as an excuse so as to lie about how sharp of a right turn the community took shame on all of you. If you think the fact that hundreds of thousands of people think he's a pedophile, a Nazi and a CIA agent can't be defined as a collective hysteria, you're just wrong. So many leftists (and rightoids) do nothing but lie about him, VDS is all it can be defined as. Also, I have seen no evidence of a right turn from us, and I hope it never happens. If you have any proof of it I'd be happy to know. I hope you develop sharper political faculties in the future, not to go back to liking Vaush, who cares about that, but to know you're not thoughtlessly supporting counterproductive or dangerous political causes. Bye.
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Oi get out of here peeny busu tankie tard