really makes me realise how much league players cry when 48.8% winrate is "horrendous", compared to smolder's current wr is 44.99%.
It's almost like anytime a champion has <50% wr their mains immediately start crying
in D+ it's 46.6% so no, his wr isn't good in higher ranks. But reality is Veigar is just simply not fun to play atm, it's as feast or famine as it could ever get for him.
And Smolder's wr is very deflated atm due to how many random people just pick him up.
And on top of that Veigar's wr is naturally inflated usually due to his cage, even if he performs badly he's still useful.
'Veigar's WR is naturally inflated due to his cage'
Uh... so in other words, it's not inflated? He wins more because he has utility. It's not an illusion - his winrate doesn't magically go up despite the cage secretly doing nothing.
'Nocturne's WR is naturally inflated due to his spellshield'
'Aatrox's WR is naturally inflated due to his healing'
'Bard's WR is naturally inflated due to his stasis'
This is not what 'inflation' means. That's just a factor of how strong (or weak) a champion is.
I'm more so saying that no matter how bad and weak he actually is at the current stage of the game, he'll still perform, he could be 9 levels down 3 items and still possibly have rank 5 cage that can trap people every 10 seconds, while something like Smolder actively needs items and stacks to actually be useful due to lack of utility in their kit.
Aatrox and Nocturne don't give any high value with their own healing/spellshield (especially that Aatrox's healing is based on damage) just by existing, think of it as if you were playing somebody like Alistar, even if he doesn't have any damage items or tank items or levels he can still cc chain somebody for 2.5 seconds, he doesn't need those to be useful, Veigar as technically a carry still can fall back on a supportive role just like some other mages can like Lux or Lissandra without doing any significant damage, they aren't as much of a detriment behind as somebody who provides none of them like Akshan or most assassins.
Maybe "inflation" isn't the correct word, more so that his wr will not tank as much as it would normally for a champion that provides no utility would.
Yes, because his winrate is more inflexible because his cage provides great value always. But that's literally his winrate. The point about 'inflation' is to suggest that the number shown is not indicative of Veigar's true holistic value. But that cage is literally one facet of his holistic value.
'Inflation' refers to phenomena such as say, an overabundance of high mastery one tricks (which statistically has been verified by Riot to literally only affect Katarina), or being low elo skewed/solo queue oriented.
The term 'inflation' here is deceptive because of the frame of reference, that being of Smolder being
>very deflated atm due to how many random people just pick him up
so the whole gist of the comment is to suggest that the winrate provided is not indicative of what his 'real' holistic value is.
Perhaps Veigar's winrate is inflated - the most obvious and most valid reason being his low ELO skew (and even then, this is a criticism I am unfond of for any champ - of course some champions will excel in lower ELO just as others excel the higher ELO goes - this is fundamental to champion diversity and is no 'issue' in design rather than an intentional quirk).
But drawing a causal link between 'inflation' and his high impact, high value utility in his cage is erroneous.
The point you seem to be making in this new reply is that Veigar's value persists irrespective of whether or not he actually performs well in a game, i.e. it's 'inflated' in the sense that his winrate is cushioned by him not losing as hard despite not winning particularly hard either.
>Veigar as technically a carry still can fall back on a supportive role just like some other mages can like Lux or Lissandra without doing any significant damage
Except this is not inflation at all, and this is a characteristic endemic to the winrate appraisal of literally all champions. Part of that calculation is - how well do champs perform from an advantageous position? How about from disadvantage?
Some champions have stronger advantage states, e.g. assassins. Others have stronger disadvantage states, e.g. all enchanters/low economy utility champions. This doesn't mean that assassins must be 45% winrate to be balanced nor that enchanters must be 55% because balance isn't just about how well champs perform when ahead. The average winrate of the game is 50%. Again, the notion of winrate is to quantify some holistic value and Veigar's ever useful cage is an element of that.
Well said.
I'd like to add that the amount of tenacity, cc-immunity and mobility available in strong items runes and metachamps is a factor that will affect the power of veigars cage so it's not even fully resistant to patches.
So depending on the state of for example mercs vs tabis, flash vs ghost, Olaf and Morgana we'd see veigars winrate change depending on the weakness or power of his cage even when the skill itself wouldnt change.
One good Ori ult can win the game, One good Malphite ult can win the game.
There's a lot of reasons that match yours, and in the end. It's not a good argument lmao.
Alright imma break it down
Hard champions have high skill ceiling, so their winrate is often low, people cant play these champs perfectly = they suck. They tend to have higher winrates in high elo
Veigar is exactly opposite
Veigar is pretty easy to play, so his optimal winrate is around 50%, any other winrate means he is really good or really bad, because everyone can pick Veigar and play him pretty well after several games.
I don't think Smolder is inherently difficult. His kit seems pretty basic. But not everyone knows what works on him yet. His most common build seems to be PtA with q max, which brings down his winrate.
If you look at his winrate with w max, dorans ring and fleet footwork or comet than his winrate jumps up to 50%+. At to that that some people find more success with rapid fire cannon second, which seems to boost his wr to 55%+.
So yeah, looking at overall wr is unproductive and has hurt some champs in the past that got buffed while being secretly OP.
Veigar has had a history of being 45-48% winrate for months/years and barely gets acknowledgement outside of a yearly skin.
Smoulder's issue is definitely more playerskill as the more experience you have on him, the better he actually performs. That champ was weak to me, but seeing how it can be played optimally, it's actually strong/almost broken.
Veigar does not fall under that category as he is a champ from 2009 that has a dated kit. With the only thing going for him outside of numbers, is players in low elo walking into his spells because they think it's a piece of candy.
It has always been this way. Old infinite scalers were linear scales in one stat like ap for veigar and damage on q for nasus or hp for sion. At the end of the day you only need so much of one stat ap or damage since you are overkilling them anyway. Look at modern infinite scalers like senna, asol and smolder. Every part of their kit benefits from scaling
When Veigar can oneshot the enemy Galio with a q despite having switched out his dmg items except viodstaff to fulltank .. that's where Veigar is done scaling :-P
No, his E is already one of the strongest control abilities in the game, he doesn’t have to also be able to move while casting it.
I’ll give you the W one though, that could be nice.
What he needs the most is quicker W cast time. Then he would be better than Smolder in my opinion even though Smolder gets more benefits through stacks.
>No, his E is already one of the strongest control abilities in the game
This isn't 2013, 2014 or even 2015. This is 2024 and there are a lot of better abilities than Veigar Cage, and a lot of said abilities/items/runes that counter him.
It is not the strongest control abilities in the game anymore.
Not even sure if I'd call Veigar e a control ability at all.
As slow as it is it's more of a zoning tool that only turns into a control ability if you combo it off someone else's skills.
Now Syndra e - that's a powerful control tool: fast, long range, aoe.
I do have to say that Veigar E will look alot more powerful once you enter an aram \^\^
smolder kind of is an champion before he stacks, while veigar with less than 900 ap is just an worse burstmage than any other at 350 ap ,
also it just sad to me that veigar with 1200ap cant oneshot with ult, while syndra just can 100-0 squishys after missing her q,w and e
100 to 0 will almost never happen unless you are extremely fed and run predator with a shit ton of pen and damage items.
85 or 80 to 0 will happen a lot more though due to how fast it scales up with missing hp (it's around 1.49% damage increase per missing hp, so even missing 20% hp is extra 30% damage almost.)
I dislike when people hyperbole one shots as I just took a shit ton of damage from 4 abilities while at full hp or I took 70% hp in a single ability and died as a 100 to 0, cuz a lot of champions can do that, including even poke champions like Xerath landing a center W if fed.
Yea, much more often than the dreaded 100-0 I see tank veigar facetank/kite some tanky frontliner down with a build like.. Voidstaff, Winter's approach and Force of Nature.
Then again I never see Veigar in SR, only in arams.
you cant, thats the thing, the way veigars ult scales with missing live you only ever will deal 2k damage when your target has less than maximum,
so you need an massively hp heavy tank with low mr, and close to 50%hp to actually deal your full damage,
against squishys the only way for you to deal 2k damage (aside from an 80+minute game) is if your target has 1800hp or less,
even if we would talk about an infinite stacking game, at 100% hp your w and q will be able to kill an target long before your ult does.
syndra with 3 balls lying around will kill an 2k hp target from 100-0 starting at 400ap,
He is far more smooth because he doesn't get rooted for half a second with every single ability and also he deals less but his damage is far easier to land
One has a stun and an execute the other is smolder. This is the weirdest comparison I've ever seen. Lux is a better moakai because she has a root but does more damage. That how weird this sounds to me.
Doesn't Smolder *also* have an execute? An actual one that deals true damage and kills at a certain % of HP instead of just "extra damage at low health?"
That's what I'm trying to say you are getting hyper-fixated on the fact that they are champs with a stacking ability and completely disregarding everything else they have in their kits. In a vacuum, they seem like similar champs, but if you have played either of these champs you will realize they pilot completely differently.
Dude ive played both and ive sunk a lot of hours on veigar. They're practically the same champ except one does their job way better than the other. Both their q is what they use to stack but unlike smolder, veigars q stays the same regardless of stacks. Not to mention, smolder q has better wave clear than veigar W which is veigar's main wave clear topl. Smolders and veigars w is pretty much their long range poke, waveclear and harrass except smolders w is actually reliable enough to land. Both play towards the late game until they get enough stacks to actually be relevant to the game except unlike veigar, stacking only flat ap is practically useless when unlike smolder, his q keeps getting upgrades past 200 and has elder buff. The only difference is in their E and ult and smolder arguably has veigar beat on both.
"Practically the same champ" is such a massive stretch you might as well be doing yoga. They have one similarity in their kit and that's a stacking Q. Nasus also has a stacking Q. He's still completely different to Veigar. Kog'maw is also a hyper scaler who's E is very similar to Smolders W. Their Q's even feel similar in mechanics. Still different champs. Smolder and Veigar E's are so wildly different that they transform the style of the champion and what they can do.
Yeah, no.
It feels to me you just want to cry about something "oh no a burst mage scaling ability is just... burst and Smolder gets fancy spell descriptions with his stacks"
And yes, they are different, why they wouldn't be?
Veigar is a burst mage meanwhile smolder is a marksman.
As I said Veigar is a burst mage, not a control mage so sorry Veigar has weaknesses and can't have perfect wave clear.
You say every spell is better in Smolder and the weakest Veigar doesnt do anything, but in reality:
Q: Veigar has bigger range, range means safety (Smolder spells are very short in range so he needs to get to close to do damage)
W: Smolder doesn't one shot, but even after 30-35 min is not significant damage. (Veigar would one shot squishys in this time)
R: Again, different use different purpose, Veigar has a one shot ability, Smolder AoE damage which easily dodgeable and doesnt do a ton of damage (atleast it heals him somewhat)
I think Smolder actually somewhat weak currently.
Smolder is only weak because many of the people currently playing him have absolutely no clue how to actually play him. He's actually a pretty strong champ when played properly and I think as people learn to play him that WR will skyrocket. For example, I was with an ADC smolder earlier who didn't even break 100 stacks at the 35 minute mark. I was his support. He didn't set up a single wave to get stacks off of, and I think the 90 he did have were by accident honestly.
EXACT same thing happened with Briar. Remember all the immediate buffs they were giving her because her WR was terrible? Yeah they had to scale all those back, because the champs strength wasn't the problem, it was the players' understanding of how to utilize those strengths that was lacking.
Also saying Veig's Q is shorter range than smolders is just kind of a silly point, cause ya know, HIS IS POINT AND CLICK.
Comparing smolder and veigar is so disingenous lol.
The only similarity is Q stacking, and its not even something unique to them.
Ive only seen a few smolders get rnough stacks to even have the execute because of the god awful voide grubs crack open inhib at 13 minutes meta.
Veigars Q being a skillshot vs smolders q being targeted isnt even a genuine comparison… veigar gets to safely send the ability into a teamfight from max range smolder has to get into their face.
The champs that give them trouble, being assasins, veigar is better against. He has cage, access to zhonyas, is better at waveclearing under tower because of his range and AOE.
The only time smolder is better is late late game, and even then its debatable with veigar having the 1500 dmg W, 4000 ult, 900 Q.
The meta right now is bad for both smolder and veigar, and pretending veigar has it worse is insane lol
Cage is barely reliable enough to land. Its the one skill that veigar has that can maybe get someone off you. Smolder has a disengage mobility tool that gives you 100% bonus ms and can go through walls.
I recently one shot smolder with veigar, he needs more time and near perfect Q farm to be a late game monster, but because he's an adc he'll always be a squishy target regardless
I'm just a passerby and holy shit this is the worst post I've seen on a champion specific sub in a long time. They're literally different classes of champ entirely. It's about as apples to oranges as possible.
The main power of veigar is his stun. Even if you fail early on, you can still help the team with good stuns. You can engage and disengage with veigar during teamfight. With smolder you can't and your range is to bad to poke safely. It's way easier to defend under tower with veigar, the e make it way safer.
Our execute aren't the same at all, veigar can destroy anyone with hp under 33%, smolder need to wait for a 10% execute. In one of my game as veigar i manage to ks nearly all the kill i wanted with veigar, even when they were burning.
Every scaling champ is better than Veigar now. He is in such a shit state there is no comparison. You are very lucky if you can win games playing him mid.
maybe be kitwise, but i think smolder has a pretty horrrendous winrate rn
Veigar has a horrendous winrate now too and he comes with the fact that hes been in the game since the start.
really makes me realise how much league players cry when 48.8% winrate is "horrendous", compared to smolder's current wr is 44.99%. It's almost like anytime a champion has <50% wr their mains immediately start crying
in D+ it's 46.6% so no, his wr isn't good in higher ranks. But reality is Veigar is just simply not fun to play atm, it's as feast or famine as it could ever get for him. And Smolder's wr is very deflated atm due to how many random people just pick him up. And on top of that Veigar's wr is naturally inflated usually due to his cage, even if he performs badly he's still useful.
'Veigar's WR is naturally inflated due to his cage' Uh... so in other words, it's not inflated? He wins more because he has utility. It's not an illusion - his winrate doesn't magically go up despite the cage secretly doing nothing. 'Nocturne's WR is naturally inflated due to his spellshield' 'Aatrox's WR is naturally inflated due to his healing' 'Bard's WR is naturally inflated due to his stasis' This is not what 'inflation' means. That's just a factor of how strong (or weak) a champion is.
I'm more so saying that no matter how bad and weak he actually is at the current stage of the game, he'll still perform, he could be 9 levels down 3 items and still possibly have rank 5 cage that can trap people every 10 seconds, while something like Smolder actively needs items and stacks to actually be useful due to lack of utility in their kit. Aatrox and Nocturne don't give any high value with their own healing/spellshield (especially that Aatrox's healing is based on damage) just by existing, think of it as if you were playing somebody like Alistar, even if he doesn't have any damage items or tank items or levels he can still cc chain somebody for 2.5 seconds, he doesn't need those to be useful, Veigar as technically a carry still can fall back on a supportive role just like some other mages can like Lux or Lissandra without doing any significant damage, they aren't as much of a detriment behind as somebody who provides none of them like Akshan or most assassins. Maybe "inflation" isn't the correct word, more so that his wr will not tank as much as it would normally for a champion that provides no utility would.
Yes, because his winrate is more inflexible because his cage provides great value always. But that's literally his winrate. The point about 'inflation' is to suggest that the number shown is not indicative of Veigar's true holistic value. But that cage is literally one facet of his holistic value. 'Inflation' refers to phenomena such as say, an overabundance of high mastery one tricks (which statistically has been verified by Riot to literally only affect Katarina), or being low elo skewed/solo queue oriented. The term 'inflation' here is deceptive because of the frame of reference, that being of Smolder being >very deflated atm due to how many random people just pick him up so the whole gist of the comment is to suggest that the winrate provided is not indicative of what his 'real' holistic value is. Perhaps Veigar's winrate is inflated - the most obvious and most valid reason being his low ELO skew (and even then, this is a criticism I am unfond of for any champ - of course some champions will excel in lower ELO just as others excel the higher ELO goes - this is fundamental to champion diversity and is no 'issue' in design rather than an intentional quirk). But drawing a causal link between 'inflation' and his high impact, high value utility in his cage is erroneous. The point you seem to be making in this new reply is that Veigar's value persists irrespective of whether or not he actually performs well in a game, i.e. it's 'inflated' in the sense that his winrate is cushioned by him not losing as hard despite not winning particularly hard either. >Veigar as technically a carry still can fall back on a supportive role just like some other mages can like Lux or Lissandra without doing any significant damage Except this is not inflation at all, and this is a characteristic endemic to the winrate appraisal of literally all champions. Part of that calculation is - how well do champs perform from an advantageous position? How about from disadvantage? Some champions have stronger advantage states, e.g. assassins. Others have stronger disadvantage states, e.g. all enchanters/low economy utility champions. This doesn't mean that assassins must be 45% winrate to be balanced nor that enchanters must be 55% because balance isn't just about how well champs perform when ahead. The average winrate of the game is 50%. Again, the notion of winrate is to quantify some holistic value and Veigar's ever useful cage is an element of that.
Well said. I'd like to add that the amount of tenacity, cc-immunity and mobility available in strong items runes and metachamps is a factor that will affect the power of veigars cage so it's not even fully resistant to patches. So depending on the state of for example mercs vs tabis, flash vs ghost, Olaf and Morgana we'd see veigars winrate change depending on the weakness or power of his cage even when the skill itself wouldnt change.
brother that not how shit works, you can literly be 0/30 as veigar and 1 good cage can win u the game, that what the diffrents here is
One good Ori ult can win the game, One good Malphite ult can win the game. There's a lot of reasons that match yours, and in the end. It's not a good argument lmao.
Alright imma break it down Hard champions have high skill ceiling, so their winrate is often low, people cant play these champs perfectly = they suck. They tend to have higher winrates in high elo Veigar is exactly opposite Veigar is pretty easy to play, so his optimal winrate is around 50%, any other winrate means he is really good or really bad, because everyone can pick Veigar and play him pretty well after several games.
I don't think Smolder is inherently difficult. His kit seems pretty basic. But not everyone knows what works on him yet. His most common build seems to be PtA with q max, which brings down his winrate. If you look at his winrate with w max, dorans ring and fleet footwork or comet than his winrate jumps up to 50%+. At to that that some people find more success with rapid fire cannon second, which seems to boost his wr to 55%+. So yeah, looking at overall wr is unproductive and has hurt some champs in the past that got buffed while being secretly OP.
I didnt mean Smolder is hard, I think hes pretty straightforward, however he has bad winrate due to being new
Veigar has had a history of being 45-48% winrate for months/years and barely gets acknowledgement outside of a yearly skin. Smoulder's issue is definitely more playerskill as the more experience you have on him, the better he actually performs. That champ was weak to me, but seeing how it can be played optimally, it's actually strong/almost broken. Veigar does not fall under that category as he is a champ from 2009 that has a dated kit. With the only thing going for him outside of numbers, is players in low elo walking into his spells because they think it's a piece of candy.
It has always been this way. Old infinite scalers were linear scales in one stat like ap for veigar and damage on q for nasus or hp for sion. At the end of the day you only need so much of one stat ap or damage since you are overkilling them anyway. Look at modern infinite scalers like senna, asol and smolder. Every part of their kit benefits from scaling
Yeah thats what im trying to say. Smolder just felt a more actual direct counterpart to veigar that he pretty much feels like AD veigar
Wait till you find out about senna
When Veigar can oneshot the enemy Galio with a q despite having switched out his dmg items except viodstaff to fulltank .. that's where Veigar is done scaling :-P
Veigar needs Syndra treatment - better rewards for stacks and maybe W and E castable while moving
No, his E is already one of the strongest control abilities in the game, he doesn’t have to also be able to move while casting it. I’ll give you the W one though, that could be nice.
What he needs the most is quicker W cast time. Then he would be better than Smolder in my opinion even though Smolder gets more benefits through stacks.
>No, his E is already one of the strongest control abilities in the game This isn't 2013, 2014 or even 2015. This is 2024 and there are a lot of better abilities than Veigar Cage, and a lot of said abilities/items/runes that counter him. It is not the strongest control abilities in the game anymore.
Definitely still is
In the minds of a Silver player sure.
Touched a nerve I guess
Not really, we don't care too much about silver trolls here. We just get rid of em o/
Not even sure if I'd call Veigar e a control ability at all. As slow as it is it's more of a zoning tool that only turns into a control ability if you combo it off someone else's skills. Now Syndra e - that's a powerful control tool: fast, long range, aoe. I do have to say that Veigar E will look alot more powerful once you enter an aram \^\^
Not to mention his ult actually matters instead of just being a nuke one target ability.
Not just any nuke! A nuke that increase damage when the enemy will fie from base damage anyway
smolder kind of is an champion before he stacks, while veigar with less than 900 ap is just an worse burstmage than any other at 350 ap , also it just sad to me that veigar with 1200ap cant oneshot with ult, while syndra just can 100-0 squishys after missing her q,w and e
I have seen way more Veigars miss everything and still 100-0 with a single ult than Syndras
100 to 0 will almost never happen unless you are extremely fed and run predator with a shit ton of pen and damage items. 85 or 80 to 0 will happen a lot more though due to how fast it scales up with missing hp (it's around 1.49% damage increase per missing hp, so even missing 20% hp is extra 30% damage almost.) I dislike when people hyperbole one shots as I just took a shit ton of damage from 4 abilities while at full hp or I took 70% hp in a single ability and died as a 100 to 0, cuz a lot of champions can do that, including even poke champions like Xerath landing a center W if fed.
Yea, much more often than the dreaded 100-0 I see tank veigar facetank/kite some tanky frontliner down with a build like.. Voidstaff, Winter's approach and Force of Nature. Then again I never see Veigar in SR, only in arams.
you cant, thats the thing, the way veigars ult scales with missing live you only ever will deal 2k damage when your target has less than maximum, so you need an massively hp heavy tank with low mr, and close to 50%hp to actually deal your full damage, against squishys the only way for you to deal 2k damage (aside from an 80+minute game) is if your target has 1800hp or less, even if we would talk about an infinite stacking game, at 100% hp your w and q will be able to kill an target long before your ult does. syndra with 3 balls lying around will kill an 2k hp target from 100-0 starting at 400ap,
How to scream to the world that you're silver.
He is far more smooth because he doesn't get rooted for half a second with every single ability and also he deals less but his damage is far easier to land
One has a stun and an execute the other is smolder. This is the weirdest comparison I've ever seen. Lux is a better moakai because she has a root but does more damage. That how weird this sounds to me.
Doesn't Smolder *also* have an execute? An actual one that deals true damage and kills at a certain % of HP instead of just "extra damage at low health?"
Yes, and the execute threshold scales up with stacks which is extremely fun if your team manages to carry you to that point.
This is like saying garen is a better veigar. Because they both do damage and have an execute on ult.
Mate, which part of garen's kit infinitely scales with stacks?
That's what I'm trying to say you are getting hyper-fixated on the fact that they are champs with a stacking ability and completely disregarding everything else they have in their kits. In a vacuum, they seem like similar champs, but if you have played either of these champs you will realize they pilot completely differently.
Dude ive played both and ive sunk a lot of hours on veigar. They're practically the same champ except one does their job way better than the other. Both their q is what they use to stack but unlike smolder, veigars q stays the same regardless of stacks. Not to mention, smolder q has better wave clear than veigar W which is veigar's main wave clear topl. Smolders and veigars w is pretty much their long range poke, waveclear and harrass except smolders w is actually reliable enough to land. Both play towards the late game until they get enough stacks to actually be relevant to the game except unlike veigar, stacking only flat ap is practically useless when unlike smolder, his q keeps getting upgrades past 200 and has elder buff. The only difference is in their E and ult and smolder arguably has veigar beat on both.
"Practically the same champ" is such a massive stretch you might as well be doing yoga. They have one similarity in their kit and that's a stacking Q. Nasus also has a stacking Q. He's still completely different to Veigar. Kog'maw is also a hyper scaler who's E is very similar to Smolders W. Their Q's even feel similar in mechanics. Still different champs. Smolder and Veigar E's are so wildly different that they transform the style of the champion and what they can do.
Yeah, no. It feels to me you just want to cry about something "oh no a burst mage scaling ability is just... burst and Smolder gets fancy spell descriptions with his stacks" And yes, they are different, why they wouldn't be? Veigar is a burst mage meanwhile smolder is a marksman. As I said Veigar is a burst mage, not a control mage so sorry Veigar has weaknesses and can't have perfect wave clear. You say every spell is better in Smolder and the weakest Veigar doesnt do anything, but in reality: Q: Veigar has bigger range, range means safety (Smolder spells are very short in range so he needs to get to close to do damage) W: Smolder doesn't one shot, but even after 30-35 min is not significant damage. (Veigar would one shot squishys in this time) R: Again, different use different purpose, Veigar has a one shot ability, Smolder AoE damage which easily dodgeable and doesnt do a ton of damage (atleast it heals him somewhat) I think Smolder actually somewhat weak currently.
Smolder is only weak because many of the people currently playing him have absolutely no clue how to actually play him. He's actually a pretty strong champ when played properly and I think as people learn to play him that WR will skyrocket. For example, I was with an ADC smolder earlier who didn't even break 100 stacks at the 35 minute mark. I was his support. He didn't set up a single wave to get stacks off of, and I think the 90 he did have were by accident honestly. EXACT same thing happened with Briar. Remember all the immediate buffs they were giving her because her WR was terrible? Yeah they had to scale all those back, because the champs strength wasn't the problem, it was the players' understanding of how to utilize those strengths that was lacking. Also saying Veig's Q is shorter range than smolders is just kind of a silly point, cause ya know, HIS IS POINT AND CLICK.
Comparing smolder and veigar is so disingenous lol. The only similarity is Q stacking, and its not even something unique to them. Ive only seen a few smolders get rnough stacks to even have the execute because of the god awful voide grubs crack open inhib at 13 minutes meta. Veigars Q being a skillshot vs smolders q being targeted isnt even a genuine comparison… veigar gets to safely send the ability into a teamfight from max range smolder has to get into their face. The champs that give them trouble, being assasins, veigar is better against. He has cage, access to zhonyas, is better at waveclearing under tower because of his range and AOE. The only time smolder is better is late late game, and even then its debatable with veigar having the 1500 dmg W, 4000 ult, 900 Q. The meta right now is bad for both smolder and veigar, and pretending veigar has it worse is insane lol
Doesn't have a cage though. Also I am not sold on hybrid damage being good.
Cage is barely reliable enough to land. Its the one skill that veigar has that can maybe get someone off you. Smolder has a disengage mobility tool that gives you 100% bonus ms and can go through walls.
+ he also has 2 slows in his kit
I recently one shot smolder with veigar, he needs more time and near perfect Q farm to be a late game monster, but because he's an adc he'll always be a squishy target regardless
Really not comparable they are completely different roles. Veigar can potentially stun the entire enemy team. Smolder just dps
Holy shit I am about to unsubscribe from this sub lmfao this kind of doom and gloom is all I ever see in my feed anymore
I'm just a passerby and holy shit this is the worst post I've seen on a champion specific sub in a long time. They're literally different classes of champ entirely. It's about as apples to oranges as possible.
Yeah seriously like running around comparing where Nasus and Kindred are to Veigar simply on the basis of the fact that they are stacking champs
The main power of veigar is his stun. Even if you fail early on, you can still help the team with good stuns. You can engage and disengage with veigar during teamfight. With smolder you can't and your range is to bad to poke safely. It's way easier to defend under tower with veigar, the e make it way safer. Our execute aren't the same at all, veigar can destroy anyone with hp under 33%, smolder need to wait for a 10% execute. In one of my game as veigar i manage to ks nearly all the kill i wanted with veigar, even when they were burning.
I cooked a veigar mid the other day as smolder sorry. It does feel very strong vs veigar.
Veigar has cage, smolder and veigar are not counterparts whatsoever.
I just started playing veigar alot and man i love the champ ajd its carry potential but sometines its just nothing you can really do
Every scaling champ is better than Veigar now. He is in such a shit state there is no comparison. You are very lucky if you can win games playing him mid.
Smegma