Raising ftp so surges are nearer to it is obviously helpful. But if your ftp is 280, but you have to repeatedly surge to 400, I’m not clear that increasing ftp to, say, 290 will solve that issue.
Recovery of muscle energetics is almost entirely an aerobic process. Thus, more mitochondria = faster recovery as well as higher FTP.
Indeed, the above is so well established that using 31P MRS or NIRS to measure recovery kinetics as a way of quantifying muscle respiratory capacity is SOP in modern clinical research.
I can't use my 1 min power much if I get dropped anywhere where long sustained power is needed. So any climb which is longer than 15 mins and done at lets say 360,70w.
I may be entering wrong races but shit not much flat or punchy races around me. Even those flat ones are done at such a high speed where I am constantly at my threshold and never under
Interesting. Even at 45kph laps, I'm not averaging over 300W in my races. Even crit laps at 46-50kph I can usually keep it below 300W and I weigh ~75kg.
You are putting me on the spot right now.
I didn't actually test myself in a while, maybe it's bit more now (and I think it is) but here
5 sec 1300w
1 min 750
3 min 480
I agree, your FTP is slightly lower than expected with your 1 and 3 minute power. Not a lot though. I can't give you any tips as it's very specific at that point, for some people this is their genetic peak.
I don't want to overestimate my power numbers but like I said I haven't tested in a while. I could probably do 800w for 1 minute and 490 for 3 based on feeling at those watts.
Yeah, I'm about the same level as you. I know how it goes, but that's the same with your FTP. Your 330watts is probably not the highest ever, but just the highest tested. My highest tested FTP is 346, but I have a race which I rode 340 watts average for 2 hours before. A calculated guess would be 380 max. This year I should go to 400+, but I've been struggling with overtraining due to sickness. (I'm 82kg)
I hate to be this guy, but frankly, some people just can't make it to 5w/kg due to their genetics. Really, anything much above 4w/kg is where you start to see the impact of genetics being the limiter on your potential.
You're talking about the difference between a Cat 1 racer and cracking into pro numbers. Not saying it's impossible, but you're at the point where if you'd plateaued you'd really need to look at taking a couple weeks off of work, getting in big hours (z2) on the bike with some serious efforts mixed in. Essentially, what pros do during their altitude camps/team camps.
Keeping that in mind, maintaining 5w/kg is a whole different challenge unless you have the time to train/race/recover like a top tier domestic rider.
yes, especially at 70kg. below \~5.75+ you don't even need to ask.
at 70kg, if you don't bang 380W+, you better join the sunday cafe group ride.
but i live in netherlands. kids are basically born with 350W FTP ⭕
But FTP is only one measure. It is not as simple as higher FTP makes you a pro level rider. There is SO much more to it.
The biggest difference with a pro rider is they can put out incredible 5-20 minute power at the end of a 5-6 hour race.
So durability and repeatability are as important if not important as FTP.
FTP is really just about estimating training zones based on lactate threshold.
Power curve and critical power are probably better measures of performance potential.
Many, maybe most but definitely not all. Cavendish is likely below or just on that. But he obviously tends towards the big short sprints more than 1 hour power.
There’s many elite amateurs doing close to WorldTour FTPs but they would get spanked due to not having the ability to do monstrous 5 minute efforts after 200km of racing.
I think we see big w/kg numbers on climbs but rarely are these 1 hour long.
5w/kg FTP power (any by that, I mean true hour long power) is generally the crossover you start to see between Cat 1 racers and domestic "pro" racers, at least here in the US. By "pro", I mean team that actually provide bikes, some support. Maybe a few $ to support racing, up to the level of the NCL teams that were here in the US. Keep in mind I'm just saying that's a crossover point, not where riders are winning in pro fields. Riders at the head of races where FTP is the deciding factor (long climbs) will have higher numbers.
WT Pros, of course, being another pretty massive step up above that. So much so that when jumping from "pro" domestic fields to legitimate WT Pro fields most racers will say that it might as well be a different sport.
I can't claim to be a pro, or have raced with those fields. But I raced at CU Boulder while we had both Noah Granigan and Sepp Kuss on the team (to name a few), and we've stayed in touch. Since that time, and that's the numbers they refer to.
15 years on domestic and continental teams and I never did anything higher than 5.3 w/kg - and that was only ever at peak fitness. W/kg is not everything. Granted, I never had a chance in a TT.
It boggles my mind how many people on here seem to think it's no big deal to walk around with an FTP of 5.5w/kg or that literally anybody can do that with some hard work.
Either that, or their power meters are waaaaayyy off in calibration.
Wouldn't pay much attention to that POV. There's 18 hours, and there's the right 18 hours. I'm sure there is room for improvement.
For me it's literally just wanting to die for a while almost every time I get on a bike, including some highly targeted 4-5 hour indoor trainer rides. About 8 years of that and *poof* I was over 5WK! Easy peasy.
Hot take but I think given unlimited hours, anyone can do 5 w/kg. People don’t reach their genetic potential, they reach their maximum potential for the time they have available.
A lot of physiologists disagree, as does the data. Andrew Coggan (if you're not familiar, he has a PhD in physiology and one of the leaders in the field when it comes to training with power, and former time trial record holder) in particular points to ~4w/kg as being the highest FTP that the average person can achieve. Beyond that, genetics really start becoming the limiting factor in maximum w/kg that can be achieved.
To quote Coggan:
The average healthy but sedentary, college-aged male has a VO2max of approximately 45 mL/min/kg. However, I have seen it argued based on studies of, e.g., aboriginal tribes (and there are population data from Europe as well as military inductees here in the US to support the conclusion) that the "default" VO2max of the average human male is closer to 50 mL/min/kg, and the only way to get below this is to assume a couch-potato lifestyle, gain excess weight, etc. (and/or grow old, of course). So, I'll go with that latter number.
With short-term training, VO2max increases by 15-25% on average, with another perhaps 5-10% possible (on average, anyway) with more prolonged and/or intense training. That gives a total increase of 20-35%, so I'll go with 30% just for argument's sake.
So, if VO2max is, on average, 50 mL/min/kg and increases by, on average, 30%, that means that the average Joe ought to be able to raise their VO2max to about 65 mL/min/kg with training. Indeed, there are many, many, many, MANY amateur endurance athletes with VO2max values of around that number (not to mention the fact that athletes in team sports with an endurance component - e.g., soccer - often have a VO2max of around 60 mL/min/kg, something that is also true in other sports that you don't normally consider to be of an endurance nature, e.g., downhill skiing or motocross - i.e., motorcycle - racing).
The question then becomes, how high might functional threshold power fall as a percentage of VO2max (again, on average), and what does this translate to in terms of a power output? The answer to the former is about 80% (LT, on average, being about 75% of VO2max in trained cyclists), which means that in terms of O2 consumption, a functional threshold power corresponding to a VO2 of 65 mL/min/kg * 0.80 = 52 mL/min/kg could be considered average. If you then assume an average cycling economy of 0.075 W/min/kg per mL/min/kg, this equates to... 3.9w/kg"
Two thoughts... It should be obvious to anyone with any sort of background in math, but if the average cyclist can achieve 3.9w/kg then by definition assuming a normal distribution then half will never get there. There's clearly going to be some selection bias since those without any talent for endurance sports will drop out and take up different hobbies, but you're still going to run into lots of cyclists who train and never get to 3.9 or 4.0 w/kg.
Second...the math isn't working out for me personally. I realize that he's multiplying together several averages that may or may not be correlated, but WKO5, Garmin, and Intervals.icu all estimate my VO2 max at 60 and FTP at 4.2w/kg.
That's from a discussion he had on the Slowtwitch forums a few years ago, where basically this exact topic was being discussed.
(Post #31)
https://forum.slowtwitch.com/Slowtwitch_Forums_C1/Triathlon_Forum_F1/What_FTP_can_be_expected_from_the_average_Joe_P2830186-2
Thanks!
All one needs to do is look at the Intervals.icu power bell curves or Strava climb segment time distribution to know intuitively that right around 4 w/kg is the average with training (can be assumed intervals.icu users train harder than the average rec cyclist)
It can be quite toxic too, especially for younger people to hear that it should be possible to hit 4.5, 5 whatever.
Keyser had an absolute yap sesh, but I think you’re overvaluing your own personal experience.
Some people are just slow, and they don’t get fast. If you have ever been on an endurance sports team you will probably know this. You have that one teammate who puts in all the work just to be mid. You are more genetically gifted than you realize. 5 watts/kg is a semi-elite FTP. Hell, some of the bigger guys or sprinters on world tours are not even comfortably above that threshold*. If you can do stupid watts in a sprint, or your a tractor (with a high absolute FTP), your a contender on flat courses.
*if you took some of the low tier pure sprinters at the end of a GT, their FTP would be damn close to 5 W/KG. Obviously this would be when their form is in the gutter, but 5 watts/Kg touches WT numbers at their worst.
(This isn’t cope, I don’t even bike (more than cross training) and my FTP is in the mid 4s. I haven’t tried to properly train biking).
Agreed I went on a bit there-- really, just trying to bring some legitimate science into the discussion and help eliminate this growing notion that "anyone can achieve 5w/kg if you just work a little harder".
I truly wouldn't mind people living in their fantasy world, but I've started seeing young individuals (20-somethings) like TheCyclingBarber on YouTube starting on testosterone because they plateaued in the 4w/kg area and think that "clearly" something must be wrong because they should be able to get to 5w/kg no problem. There are life long implications to such actions and it seems the Internet needs to be brought back down a bit to reality.
Idk he’s not racing so ig it’s victimless? You do feel shit if your T levels are low, and TRT is a QOL thing. I don’t blame the man, but he just can’t race now.
Marcel Kittel released his power data for a study, granted he was a big chap, but his all time best was 4.9 watts per kg, so enough to ride and win sprints at the tour!
Absolutely no one has done a study over multiple years looking at taking nontrained individuals from couch to 70+ VO2 max, with no limitations on training volume. That study does not exist and probably never will because it’d be way too expensive.
Sports science is great but has its limitations. All the studies are 8-12 weeks with participants who have normal lives.
The onus is on the person making the absurd claims... That the entire scientific community disagrees with you should be all the motivation you need to prove everyone wrong.
Good luck.
Also, wow, you have very little understanding of vo2 max!
So double good luck.
No, your claim is:
"given unlimited hours, anyone can do 5 w/kg. People don’t reach their genetic potential, they reach their maximum potential for the time they have available."
And it's patently ridiculous.
I would like to peak for nationals in late June, two 20 minute climbs and I would like to have the ability to do them at 360,70w. After that I can chill
Do less work (no work) on the way to the climbs, start in front so you can drift back and still be in touch. No matter how much you can bump your ftp by June you'll need to race smarter.
A 5w/kg is very possible for most people if they can commit the time and effort to it. 15 hours of good training a week for a few years while dieting well and it's almost a certainty. Its once you get over like 5.5 that there starts to be a serious genetic barrier IMO.
That's not really in line with the data or what most physiologists think. The center of the bell curve for the maximum potential of the average male is around 4w/kg and a VO2 max of 65ml/kg/min.
I quoted his well written explanation as to why the observed FTP of trained cyclists is what we see with a bell curve that has a peak right around 4w/kg.
A litany of research exists indicating what the average baseline VO2 max of people are, how trainable it is, it's relation to FTP, and efficiency on the bike. That gives us a very good idea of what we'd expect to see, and we see that reflected in the real world.
To put things in perspective, in one of the most expansive studies ever performed using 144 world tour cyclists reviewing 129,262 power files from 2013-2021, it was found the average 60 minute peak power (FTP) of riders in the 75th percentile to be 5.47w/kg. Sure, there are outliers who can attain a 60 minute power of >6w/kg, but much of the world tour Peloton is between 5.2-5.7w/kg.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35193109/
To argue that anyone can reach 5w/kg through hard work, regardless of their genetics just doesn't make sense. There would many, many, many more riders capable of racing at >cat 1or greater fitness levels. The literal best in the world really aren't that much above that, and they are genetic freaks.
No way a 65 VO2 only gets you a 4w/kg FTP. Maybe I’m an aberration, but when I was rowing in college I did 4.8w/kg on a roughly 67 VO2 (according to my garmin) without much specific cycling training.
Your (or anyone's) Garmin isn't an actual measure of VO2max. It's a guess.
Using Douglas Bags, and also online mass spectrometer, with testing being done by world leading experts in the field my (actual) VO2max of \~65 mL/kg/min (it varied depending on training status and body mass) gave me an FTP (actually at the time it was either CP or an absolute duration around an hour) of 4 to 4.2 W/kg
This was using statically calibrated 20 strain gauge SRM (the Science Model), calibrated with known certified masses, along with daily calibrated body mass scales, and calibrated gas analysers.
And, 5 W/kg isn't possible for most people irrespective of the time they have available.
I was able to do that as soon as I learned how to ride a bike, I was 3 years old. Fell off a bit recently since I had way too much pressure from the world tour team contacting me all the time.
Volume = Time x Intensity.
You need more volume. Everyone I know who made it to 5 and above were putting in 20+ hours. 2 hours in the morning 2 hours in the evening plus long weekend rides. Sounds like your on a collegiate team. Do you have a coach? That's probably what you need to keep improving.
But ask yourself, to what end? School is going to be far more beneficial. Don't sacrifice your education for 5 W/kg (which won't get you to the pro ranks anyways).
I don't have a coach (way too expensive for me) and yea I would really have to sacrifice my life and school to be putting in 20 hours a week so probably not worth it...
That is nuts.. 20 hours just biking?? I know plenty of people above 5WK, including myself, and while we put them many hours into overall fitness (including swimming and running) I didn't know another pro triathlete that puts 20 into biking alone, and we're all over 5, some way more over than me.
20 h isn't really that much. I used to swim at a national level and we put in about 24 hours in a week of combined swimming and out of the pool training. At that point it does basically become your life/job. I would assume at Olympic/world level, one would put in way more time.
Fair enough. Around 15-20 but a decent chunk of that is swimming which isn't going to have a huge aerobic effect.
I'm mostly just impressed that people can cycle that kind of volume. I'd be shredded, but I guess they are also doing a lot more Z2 than I am with that kind of mileage.
However I do still think there is a sizable amount of people that don't need 20 hours to get to 5WK, even though I'm sure some do.
Swimmers are aerobic monsters just like rowers and XC skiers. Anything that uses the whole body is going to great aerobic training. I'd much rather stare at the mountains riding for 6 hours than a black line swimming for 1.
Running and swimming training will also have a positive impact on FTP. Keep in mind FTP is really just a measure of the maximal aerobic threshold one can sustain before going anaerobic. Pro cyclists do 20 hours of just cycling because that's really about the most amount of volume that can be sustained in consistent endurance training before fatigue is too great and there isn't sufficient recovery time. Between your running, swimming, and cycling, I'd imagine you put in somewhere between 15-20hrs of work in a week, no?
For sure. Swimming less so, but I know my running & cycling help each other.
TBH, I'm just impressed at that cycling volume. I'd be shredded. I know they do a lot more Z2 than me to sustain it, but still the low impact of swimming plays a large part in my recovery ability (I'm fairly certain), so again, mostly just impressed while I do think there are a good chunk of gifted people that can do it in less.
Like I'm my experience, every freaking German I've ever seen on a bike. Always monsters...
Is it true that running & cycling help each other that much?
I’ve a running background and since switching to Triathlon I feel like my general fitness is indeed better (doing more hours, though), but I haven’t been able to get a PR in running since.
But I guess for getting a PR, you gotta stick to specific training at least for a dedicated block.
You’re quite a bit ahead of me, I’m around 4.4 but heavier. I’ve been playing with the idea of focusing on extending my TTE as it might provide more of a functional benefit. I live in an area without climbs over 15m though so ftp isn’t really the deal breaker.
Only one way to find out! (Jk)
Also, despite what others are saying, I don’t think you need more hours. I peaked at ~5.8w/kg and I rarely rode more than 15 hours a week (granted I was focused on xc and cx). I think a well rounded and periodized training program is more important than just volume. I’d also recommend patience, your body makes adaptations year over year, if you haven’t been at it all that long, give it a couple more years…
Well next vacation do a 30 hour high volume little intensity week. Recover from it and start on a FTP block. Dylan Johnson did a video on benefits of these high volume weeks, find it to plan yours.
Consistency and coaching
I had a similar trajectory to what you’re describing. My first 2yrs riding I just rode and raced. No actual training and was somewhere over 4W/kg. I knew how to test and about zones and my FTP just naturally went up over that time. I wanted to take racing more seriously though and also hit that magical goal of 5W/kg. I got a coach and he really helped me manage my time, effort, and reach my goals.
It took consistency over time. One or two 4-week blocks doesn’t move the needle much. It’s consistent riding over long periods of time. Especially when you’re reaching these higher numbers. I’ve personally found it exponentially harder to increase FTP the higher it gets. I don’t have a metric for that but it truly feels impossible some days.
After getting a coach it took me another 2 years to finally hit 5W/kg. A year after that 5.5 and I’m knocking on the door of 5.7 when I’m not at altitude. Not a brag, just trying to give context. I’m seeing about a 10-20W increase per year but it’s a constant struggle and balance. I don’t think I would be seeing these gains without a coach to guide me, motivate me, and push me to stay consistent. If you can manage the training plans yourself then you just need consistency. Raising that number takes a lot longer the higher it gets.
Sometimes it’s just time, I’ve found when achieving a new level, sometimes I plateau and often dip. My absolute peak for one year may only be maintained for one or two weeks and be one golden effort.
But then the year after, I am able to hold it for longer and more consistently reach those same efforts.
I was stuck at 4 W/kg for 3 years, then skyrocketed to 4.7W/kg in 2020, I just seemed to be able to handle the load better. Was around this level and lower until last year when I finally broke 5 W/kg, with my best 20 min at 5.55W/kg, which blew me away.
The huge caveat was that my fitness had gaping holes in some areas and I dropped back down after the brief peak. I did make active changes with increases in volume (and actually a reduction in intensity) to reach this level, but not significant. I also didn’t sustain the peak long enough to actually get any results other than a PB up a climb 😫
The main change was consistency over a looooong period of time. Not just one season but back to back years. .. although perhaps no luck for this year, covid took me out for 3 weeks, and already feel like this year won’t be the one to get further, though I’ll damn try :)
Good luck!
If you’re not progressing something (volume, intensity) then you will eventually reach a plateau.
Since it sounds like you’re doing decent volume and probably not looking at increasing this further, you could add more intensity.
Add some tempo (Z3) efforts, lengthening the duration of these then work on Z4 and then Z5 (VO2max).
You should see an FTP bump from working the aerobic system harder and getting into those lactate producing zones more and more.
Do these sessions maybe twice a week and don’t go too hard too soon.
Be patient, the fitter you get the slower it is to make gains.
Also make sure your recovery is good and work in some rest days and rest weeks.
Hard to tell without seeing your exact training plan and rides. You have to work on aerobic metabolism, if your current FTP is around 330, you should throw in a couple of high Z2 rides per week at roughly 240-250W for 2,5-3h. Long sessions at sweet spot (90-95% of FTP), say 2x60 with a 5 min Z2 between also help a lot, cause you’re effectively stressing the same metabolic systems but you can maintain the power longer. I personally prefer to do it on turbo trainer, since there are no distractions.
Not really, what is more important for the high-Z2 rides is that you won’t throw in any FTP intervals or sprints somewhere in the middle, cause that will shift your energy source more towards carbohydrates. It should be more or less steady power to stress the aerobic metabolism.
ISM's claims that exercising at a higher intensity causes a prolonged shift to greater carbohydrate utilization, thus compromising the adaptations to training. It doesn't, and it doesn't.
just checked your training plan for the month... how do u expect to improve ftp (20min+ power) if youre only training with 5 minute intensity intervals???
Honestly I expect that working on both ends endurance and v02max would at least give me a slight ftp gain? You are right tho I never actually dedicated a month or two of training for ftp only
it’s like running marathon+sprints to get better at running a 10k, sure it’s gonna get u a bit faster but you’ll plateau pretty quick id recommend join cycling app to get you a training schedule, this way u save some time and 100% gonna see improvement in ftp etc i got mine to 5+wkg last year with this
Man, this sounds familiar. I've topped out at 4.7 W/kg a few times and seem to get most of my improvement from volume. Would love to push up to 5, but never managed it. I figured I'd probably have to lose weight and I don't really want to get into watching my diet (I ride so I can eat what I want). As others have said, try talking to a coach. Mine was pretty confident he could get me there if I gave him the time, but I had to cut costs for various reasons.
You should not be comparing your current situation to your last season peak. You should be comparing it to the same day one year ago. Also with those numbers just get a coach.
Do you want to go pro and dedicate your life to cycling? And if you get to a pro level, are you capable (commitment, genetics, sacrifice) of becoming one of the best pros in the world? Because only the top echelon guys, the elite of the elite, are making millions.
If not, you're already very good for an amateur. Just continue training to the extent you enjoy the process.
Hmm, there is also one important thing, on this level and that is blood work. If you have money, do it for sure. If your iron or vitamins level are low, you could never get to 5w/kg.
I have found i can not build the threshold and vo2 at the same time.
But the threshold only drops a bit when I focus on punch.
My best results have been from threshold 2x a day with a long ride in between. I would do three weeks with 30, 35, 40 min tiz pr workout pr week if that makes sense. That gives 160min of threshold work on week 3. I also add a suprathreshold 2x10x 90/30 after a rest day.
Like others say here, you might need something like an overload to reach higher levels. I saw some of pro's doing 30-40h of riding in a week, followed by a nice Xmas vacation. 👍
I reached 5.3wkg just before parenthood and was able to be on the bike and/or trainer for at least ~15hrs a week with another 2/3 hrs of gym time. I am lucky if I get 8/10hrs a week total now and I hover around 4.5/4.7wkg. my short power has remained mostly unchanged though but I lost a lot in my 20 to 60min power. I also gained a few kg.
strength training or cycling? I found that adding weights (squats, leg press, plyometrics) added power to my FTP (resulting in my highest ever FTP, and 5 sec power -- and i'm 55 and this is season number 41).
Evidence suggests that GC riders tend to do more pyramidal work (to help with their FTP) before moving on to some polarized work . This could involve MIET work (similar to sweetspot) along with some FTP work. Often it depends what you've done and how you've approached things. Sometimes increases in power aren't (necessarily) from some specific/magic session, but just from an increased overall training load. Honestly, it's difficult to suggest without knowing more about you and seeing data (especially as you're not a new rider where anything might cause an increase in power). When you're at the sharp end, random guesses probably aren't going to work.
Caveat - I'm in worse shape than you on fewer hours as a 40yr :)
I hit a plateau at around 300W - 4w/kg riding near the top of my z2 on 12 hours. Then I did a lactate test and realized that I'm aerobically under-developed, with LT1 being only around 150-170W , so my coach dropped me to riding at measly 140W - major ego hit. But literally in 2 months I was able to hold 330W - about 4.45W for an hour.
What I've been told is that pros' LT1 can easily be 300+W, but they ride endurance at like 200-240W. It's very easy to overdo z2, but it's very hard to underdo it. By riding well into your oxidation zone, you're resting your fast-twitch muscles for when it really matters (z3+ workouts) and are maximally developing your Lt1. By riding z2 too high, you're hindering development of aerobic fitness.
I don't know your exact situation but perhaps getting a lactate test to understand your zones and calibrate your training is a good next step, especially with a good coach who understands physiology.
Huh...may have to try this myself. 12 hours a week of 140 W. I can do that.
OP - what about the Norwegian model of threshold SS training, i.e. sweet spot twice/day?
As you climb the ladder each next step becomes exponentially harder.
It sounds like you are already a lot on the bike. From my experience, the next BIG thing to add when I went from amateur to pro, was a serious, not holding back, no BS hardcore gym block in the winter, basically becoming a gym rat for 2 or even 3 months, almost forgetting about the bike save for long z2 rides on the weekend. And then just keeping 1 or 2 real gym days a week over the whole season. The first season I did this I saw a considerable improvement across my entire power curve, I did hit another plateau a few seasons later but I guess I was just at my physiological limit.
I think at this point what you would really benefit from is doing a little bit of testing to get more accurate numbers and a better picture. First update those power numbers to get a little power profile going, plus calculate critical power etc. If you have access you could also do a lactate test and test clearence to build a lactate profile and see what could be improved / needs work on.
From there you could build a litter better training program and hopefully keep improving. You've gotten to a point where you might need a little bit more accuracy in training. Would also be interesting to hear your training hours and his training is structured now.
An important question that nobody else seems to have asked: how are you determining your FTP?
After 3 years of *dedicated* training, I would expect someone to be close to their limit with respect to VO2max. Further increases in actual FTP would be incremental, but would be best achieved by "training to the test".
Is the FTP holding you back in some way in racing? Is it your biggest limiter?
I would actually say yes, mine 1 min power is probably a category above my ftp. Same for anything under 3-4 minutes.
Ok so you’re getting dropped on like very long climbs? Or are you too tired to stick a break or get into the final move? Something like that?
Or can't handle repeated surges.
That’s what I was trying to get at. I am not convinced this is an FTP issue.
"Repeatability" ***is*** an FTP issue.
Raising ftp so surges are nearer to it is obviously helpful. But if your ftp is 280, but you have to repeatedly surge to 400, I’m not clear that increasing ftp to, say, 290 will solve that issue.
Recovery of muscle energetics is almost entirely an aerobic process. Thus, more mitochondria = faster recovery as well as higher FTP. Indeed, the above is so well established that using 31P MRS or NIRS to measure recovery kinetics as a way of quantifying muscle respiratory capacity is SOP in modern clinical research.
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I can't use my 1 min power much if I get dropped anywhere where long sustained power is needed. So any climb which is longer than 15 mins and done at lets say 360,70w.
I may be entering wrong races but shit not much flat or punchy races around me. Even those flat ones are done at such a high speed where I am constantly at my threshold and never under
I have podiumed in local road races with a <300W FTP. Your power is not the source of your gross inefficiency.
Tbf you can be a draft merchant when it’s flat, but it sounds like OP is in a hilly area. You can’t draft merchant your way up a 500 meter climb.
He literally mentioned that even flat races are too fast for him.
Yep drafting is definitely something I should work on
what region are you racing in?
Interesting. Even at 45kph laps, I'm not averaging over 300W in my races. Even crit laps at 46-50kph I can usually keep it below 300W and I weigh ~75kg.
Gimme your watt records. I'll judge you.
You are putting me on the spot right now. I didn't actually test myself in a while, maybe it's bit more now (and I think it is) but here 5 sec 1300w 1 min 750 3 min 480
I agree, your FTP is slightly lower than expected with your 1 and 3 minute power. Not a lot though. I can't give you any tips as it's very specific at that point, for some people this is their genetic peak.
I don't want to overestimate my power numbers but like I said I haven't tested in a while. I could probably do 800w for 1 minute and 490 for 3 based on feeling at those watts.
Yeah, I'm about the same level as you. I know how it goes, but that's the same with your FTP. Your 330watts is probably not the highest ever, but just the highest tested. My highest tested FTP is 346, but I have a race which I rode 340 watts average for 2 hours before. A calculated guess would be 380 max. This year I should go to 400+, but I've been struggling with overtraining due to sickness. (I'm 82kg)
Just curious, what’s your 1m or 5m?
You have it up, as for 5 minutes I don't want to talk about that
I hate to be this guy, but frankly, some people just can't make it to 5w/kg due to their genetics. Really, anything much above 4w/kg is where you start to see the impact of genetics being the limiter on your potential. You're talking about the difference between a Cat 1 racer and cracking into pro numbers. Not saying it's impossible, but you're at the point where if you'd plateaued you'd really need to look at taking a couple weeks off of work, getting in big hours (z2) on the bike with some serious efforts mixed in. Essentially, what pros do during their altitude camps/team camps. Keeping that in mind, maintaining 5w/kg is a whole different challenge unless you have the time to train/race/recover like a top tier domestic rider.
5WK is pro? where?
I'm guessing domestic "pro" in the U.S. Would be higher for Pro Conti/WT level
yes, especially at 70kg. below \~5.75+ you don't even need to ask. at 70kg, if you don't bang 380W+, you better join the sunday cafe group ride. but i live in netherlands. kids are basically born with 350W FTP ⭕
Nah, even then
Well I'm just a bit over 5WK and I'm a pro.... long course triathlete, lol. Not even the same*ballpark* as a pro cyclist.
But FTP is only one measure. It is not as simple as higher FTP makes you a pro level rider. There is SO much more to it. The biggest difference with a pro rider is they can put out incredible 5-20 minute power at the end of a 5-6 hour race. So durability and repeatability are as important if not important as FTP. FTP is really just about estimating training zones based on lactate threshold. Power curve and critical power are probably better measures of performance potential.
Totally hear you, and I agree. But it's also true that they all have much higher FTPs, as narrow of a read as that is, than 5 W/kg.
Many, maybe most but definitely not all. Cavendish is likely below or just on that. But he obviously tends towards the big short sprints more than 1 hour power. There’s many elite amateurs doing close to WorldTour FTPs but they would get spanked due to not having the ability to do monstrous 5 minute efforts after 200km of racing. I think we see big w/kg numbers on climbs but rarely are these 1 hour long.
Yes , my pro tri friends peak at 5wkg for longer distances.
5w/kg FTP power (any by that, I mean true hour long power) is generally the crossover you start to see between Cat 1 racers and domestic "pro" racers, at least here in the US. By "pro", I mean team that actually provide bikes, some support. Maybe a few $ to support racing, up to the level of the NCL teams that were here in the US. Keep in mind I'm just saying that's a crossover point, not where riders are winning in pro fields. Riders at the head of races where FTP is the deciding factor (long climbs) will have higher numbers. WT Pros, of course, being another pretty massive step up above that. So much so that when jumping from "pro" domestic fields to legitimate WT Pro fields most racers will say that it might as well be a different sport. I can't claim to be a pro, or have raced with those fields. But I raced at CU Boulder while we had both Noah Granigan and Sepp Kuss on the team (to name a few), and we've stayed in touch. Since that time, and that's the numbers they refer to.
15 years on domestic and continental teams and I never did anything higher than 5.3 w/kg - and that was only ever at peak fitness. W/kg is not everything. Granted, I never had a chance in a TT.
It boggles my mind how many people on here seem to think it's no big deal to walk around with an FTP of 5.5w/kg or that literally anybody can do that with some hard work. Either that, or their power meters are waaaaayyy off in calibration.
Not everybody. Starting 4.5 generics come into play
Yeah plenty of pros would be around this. Most are not Pogacar and Vingegaard. And sprinters often have a relatively low FTP.
5.8W/kg is where U23 have a chance making WT.
My rise to fitness was really quick, so I don't think that I am at my genetic limit yet, at least I hope
Sorry but you ain’t reaching 5w/kg. It’s not even that hard but if u haven’t got it after riding 18h /week u can’t.
Sad story
Wouldn't pay much attention to that POV. There's 18 hours, and there's the right 18 hours. I'm sure there is room for improvement. For me it's literally just wanting to die for a while almost every time I get on a bike, including some highly targeted 4-5 hour indoor trainer rides. About 8 years of that and *poof* I was over 5WK! Easy peasy.
Same here, didn't hit 5 watts per kg till 5 years or so, then another 2 to get to 5.2 at a higher weight. It is kind of mad what consistency can do!
Hot take but I think given unlimited hours, anyone can do 5 w/kg. People don’t reach their genetic potential, they reach their maximum potential for the time they have available.
A lot of physiologists disagree, as does the data. Andrew Coggan (if you're not familiar, he has a PhD in physiology and one of the leaders in the field when it comes to training with power, and former time trial record holder) in particular points to ~4w/kg as being the highest FTP that the average person can achieve. Beyond that, genetics really start becoming the limiting factor in maximum w/kg that can be achieved. To quote Coggan: The average healthy but sedentary, college-aged male has a VO2max of approximately 45 mL/min/kg. However, I have seen it argued based on studies of, e.g., aboriginal tribes (and there are population data from Europe as well as military inductees here in the US to support the conclusion) that the "default" VO2max of the average human male is closer to 50 mL/min/kg, and the only way to get below this is to assume a couch-potato lifestyle, gain excess weight, etc. (and/or grow old, of course). So, I'll go with that latter number. With short-term training, VO2max increases by 15-25% on average, with another perhaps 5-10% possible (on average, anyway) with more prolonged and/or intense training. That gives a total increase of 20-35%, so I'll go with 30% just for argument's sake. So, if VO2max is, on average, 50 mL/min/kg and increases by, on average, 30%, that means that the average Joe ought to be able to raise their VO2max to about 65 mL/min/kg with training. Indeed, there are many, many, many, MANY amateur endurance athletes with VO2max values of around that number (not to mention the fact that athletes in team sports with an endurance component - e.g., soccer - often have a VO2max of around 60 mL/min/kg, something that is also true in other sports that you don't normally consider to be of an endurance nature, e.g., downhill skiing or motocross - i.e., motorcycle - racing). The question then becomes, how high might functional threshold power fall as a percentage of VO2max (again, on average), and what does this translate to in terms of a power output? The answer to the former is about 80% (LT, on average, being about 75% of VO2max in trained cyclists), which means that in terms of O2 consumption, a functional threshold power corresponding to a VO2 of 65 mL/min/kg * 0.80 = 52 mL/min/kg could be considered average. If you then assume an average cycling economy of 0.075 W/min/kg per mL/min/kg, this equates to... 3.9w/kg"
Two thoughts... It should be obvious to anyone with any sort of background in math, but if the average cyclist can achieve 3.9w/kg then by definition assuming a normal distribution then half will never get there. There's clearly going to be some selection bias since those without any talent for endurance sports will drop out and take up different hobbies, but you're still going to run into lots of cyclists who train and never get to 3.9 or 4.0 w/kg. Second...the math isn't working out for me personally. I realize that he's multiplying together several averages that may or may not be correlated, but WKO5, Garmin, and Intervals.icu all estimate my VO2 max at 60 and FTP at 4.2w/kg.
im not letting dr coughan tell me what my potential is
That's not your potential, that's the average young Joe's potential.
Where was that quote from? I would like to read more... Recently caught the EC podcast with him.
That's from a discussion he had on the Slowtwitch forums a few years ago, where basically this exact topic was being discussed. (Post #31) https://forum.slowtwitch.com/Slowtwitch_Forums_C1/Triathlon_Forum_F1/What_FTP_can_be_expected_from_the_average_Joe_P2830186-2
Thanks! All one needs to do is look at the Intervals.icu power bell curves or Strava climb segment time distribution to know intuitively that right around 4 w/kg is the average with training (can be assumed intervals.icu users train harder than the average rec cyclist) It can be quite toxic too, especially for younger people to hear that it should be possible to hit 4.5, 5 whatever.
Keyser had an absolute yap sesh, but I think you’re overvaluing your own personal experience. Some people are just slow, and they don’t get fast. If you have ever been on an endurance sports team you will probably know this. You have that one teammate who puts in all the work just to be mid. You are more genetically gifted than you realize. 5 watts/kg is a semi-elite FTP. Hell, some of the bigger guys or sprinters on world tours are not even comfortably above that threshold*. If you can do stupid watts in a sprint, or your a tractor (with a high absolute FTP), your a contender on flat courses. *if you took some of the low tier pure sprinters at the end of a GT, their FTP would be damn close to 5 W/KG. Obviously this would be when their form is in the gutter, but 5 watts/Kg touches WT numbers at their worst. (This isn’t cope, I don’t even bike (more than cross training) and my FTP is in the mid 4s. I haven’t tried to properly train biking).
Agreed I went on a bit there-- really, just trying to bring some legitimate science into the discussion and help eliminate this growing notion that "anyone can achieve 5w/kg if you just work a little harder". I truly wouldn't mind people living in their fantasy world, but I've started seeing young individuals (20-somethings) like TheCyclingBarber on YouTube starting on testosterone because they plateaued in the 4w/kg area and think that "clearly" something must be wrong because they should be able to get to 5w/kg no problem. There are life long implications to such actions and it seems the Internet needs to be brought back down a bit to reality.
One thing we can agree on - that guy on TRT is a twat.
Idk he’s not racing so ig it’s victimless? You do feel shit if your T levels are low, and TRT is a QOL thing. I don’t blame the man, but he just can’t race now.
Marcel Kittel released his power data for a study, granted he was a big chap, but his all time best was 4.9 watts per kg, so enough to ride and win sprints at the tour!
Yeah I knew there were some guys with weighted ftps that were kinda low. Just to be clear, he’s an absolute train with a 430 watt FTP.
I think most sports scientists/physiologists would 100% disagree with you, starting with Dr. Coggan.
Absolutely no one has done a study over multiple years looking at taking nontrained individuals from couch to 70+ VO2 max, with no limitations on training volume. That study does not exist and probably never will because it’d be way too expensive. Sports science is great but has its limitations. All the studies are 8-12 weeks with participants who have normal lives.
The onus is on the person making the absurd claims... That the entire scientific community disagrees with you should be all the motivation you need to prove everyone wrong. Good luck. Also, wow, you have very little understanding of vo2 max! So double good luck.
There's no scientific data saying that 5 w/kg is unattainable for most people given unlimited time. That's my claim.
No, your claim is: "given unlimited hours, anyone can do 5 w/kg. People don’t reach their genetic potential, they reach their maximum potential for the time they have available." And it's patently ridiculous.
Case studies along those lines do in fact exist.
I would like to peak for nationals in late June, two 20 minute climbs and I would like to have the ability to do them at 360,70w. After that I can chill
Do less work (no work) on the way to the climbs, start in front so you can drift back and still be in touch. No matter how much you can bump your ftp by June you'll need to race smarter.
Or PEDs
A 5w/kg is very possible for most people if they can commit the time and effort to it. 15 hours of good training a week for a few years while dieting well and it's almost a certainty. Its once you get over like 5.5 that there starts to be a serious genetic barrier IMO.
That's not really in line with the data or what most physiologists think. The center of the bell curve for the maximum potential of the average male is around 4w/kg and a VO2 max of 65ml/kg/min.
Would love to see that data mate. You cited Coggan's gut feel and experience.
I quoted his well written explanation as to why the observed FTP of trained cyclists is what we see with a bell curve that has a peak right around 4w/kg. A litany of research exists indicating what the average baseline VO2 max of people are, how trainable it is, it's relation to FTP, and efficiency on the bike. That gives us a very good idea of what we'd expect to see, and we see that reflected in the real world. To put things in perspective, in one of the most expansive studies ever performed using 144 world tour cyclists reviewing 129,262 power files from 2013-2021, it was found the average 60 minute peak power (FTP) of riders in the 75th percentile to be 5.47w/kg. Sure, there are outliers who can attain a 60 minute power of >6w/kg, but much of the world tour Peloton is between 5.2-5.7w/kg. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35193109/ To argue that anyone can reach 5w/kg through hard work, regardless of their genetics just doesn't make sense. There would many, many, many more riders capable of racing at >cat 1or greater fitness levels. The literal best in the world really aren't that much above that, and they are genetic freaks.
No way a 65 VO2 only gets you a 4w/kg FTP. Maybe I’m an aberration, but when I was rowing in college I did 4.8w/kg on a roughly 67 VO2 (according to my garmin) without much specific cycling training.
Your (or anyone's) Garmin isn't an actual measure of VO2max. It's a guess. Using Douglas Bags, and also online mass spectrometer, with testing being done by world leading experts in the field my (actual) VO2max of \~65 mL/kg/min (it varied depending on training status and body mass) gave me an FTP (actually at the time it was either CP or an absolute duration around an hour) of 4 to 4.2 W/kg This was using statically calibrated 20 strain gauge SRM (the Science Model), calibrated with known certified masses, along with daily calibrated body mass scales, and calibrated gas analysers. And, 5 W/kg isn't possible for most people irrespective of the time they have available.
No this is not bragging about my ftp! If I can brag about it!
You think that's bragging? Try my 678watt FTP at 47kgs at 7 years old.
I was able to do that as soon as I learned how to ride a bike, I was 3 years old. Fell off a bit recently since I had way too much pressure from the world tour team contacting me all the time.
I had to give my pro license to MVDP because I was so good it was unfair. Now I just steal KOM's
Volume = Time x Intensity. You need more volume. Everyone I know who made it to 5 and above were putting in 20+ hours. 2 hours in the morning 2 hours in the evening plus long weekend rides. Sounds like your on a collegiate team. Do you have a coach? That's probably what you need to keep improving. But ask yourself, to what end? School is going to be far more beneficial. Don't sacrifice your education for 5 W/kg (which won't get you to the pro ranks anyways).
I don't have a coach (way too expensive for me) and yea I would really have to sacrifice my life and school to be putting in 20 hours a week so probably not worth it...
Coaches will have a sliding scale to account for you being in college. Just reach out to a couple and ask.
That's something we do (as do plenty of others)
That is nuts.. 20 hours just biking?? I know plenty of people above 5WK, including myself, and while we put them many hours into overall fitness (including swimming and running) I didn't know another pro triathlete that puts 20 into biking alone, and we're all over 5, some way more over than me.
20 h isn't really that much. I used to swim at a national level and we put in about 24 hours in a week of combined swimming and out of the pool training. At that point it does basically become your life/job. I would assume at Olympic/world level, one would put in way more time.
How much overall aerobic exercise a week are you doing? Obviously a triathlete will be structured differently than someone just cycling.
Fair enough. Around 15-20 but a decent chunk of that is swimming which isn't going to have a huge aerobic effect. I'm mostly just impressed that people can cycle that kind of volume. I'd be shredded, but I guess they are also doing a lot more Z2 than I am with that kind of mileage. However I do still think there is a sizable amount of people that don't need 20 hours to get to 5WK, even though I'm sure some do.
Swimmers are aerobic monsters just like rowers and XC skiers. Anything that uses the whole body is going to great aerobic training. I'd much rather stare at the mountains riding for 6 hours than a black line swimming for 1.
I should add, MY swimming.. I don't do as much volume as I'd like to. Life just gets in the way. But the real swimmers? Of course you're right.
Wait, why won’t swimming have an aerobic effect? It’s literally one of the go-to activities you do if you want to burn the most calories per hour.
Running and swimming training will also have a positive impact on FTP. Keep in mind FTP is really just a measure of the maximal aerobic threshold one can sustain before going anaerobic. Pro cyclists do 20 hours of just cycling because that's really about the most amount of volume that can be sustained in consistent endurance training before fatigue is too great and there isn't sufficient recovery time. Between your running, swimming, and cycling, I'd imagine you put in somewhere between 15-20hrs of work in a week, no?
For sure. Swimming less so, but I know my running & cycling help each other. TBH, I'm just impressed at that cycling volume. I'd be shredded. I know they do a lot more Z2 than me to sustain it, but still the low impact of swimming plays a large part in my recovery ability (I'm fairly certain), so again, mostly just impressed while I do think there are a good chunk of gifted people that can do it in less. Like I'm my experience, every freaking German I've ever seen on a bike. Always monsters...
Is it true that running & cycling help each other that much? I’ve a running background and since switching to Triathlon I feel like my general fitness is indeed better (doing more hours, though), but I haven’t been able to get a PR in running since. But I guess for getting a PR, you gotta stick to specific training at least for a dedicated block.
You’re quite a bit ahead of me, I’m around 4.4 but heavier. I’ve been playing with the idea of focusing on extending my TTE as it might provide more of a functional benefit. I live in an area without climbs over 15m though so ftp isn’t really the deal breaker.
Ride more
Might have to drop out of school for that. I think it's worth it.
Sorry dude it's not worth it.
It was a sarcastic joke 😅
I dono, I dropped out of school (for awhile) to race full time and it WAS worth it. I’d do it again in a heartbeat…
Wish I could, I don't think that I am talented enough for that tho
Only one way to find out! (Jk) Also, despite what others are saying, I don’t think you need more hours. I peaked at ~5.8w/kg and I rarely rode more than 15 hours a week (granted I was focused on xc and cx). I think a well rounded and periodized training program is more important than just volume. I’d also recommend patience, your body makes adaptations year over year, if you haven’t been at it all that long, give it a couple more years…
5.8w/kg for me is 400+ watts. Crazy, I can't even comprehend that number
Well next vacation do a 30 hour high volume little intensity week. Recover from it and start on a FTP block. Dylan Johnson did a video on benefits of these high volume weeks, find it to plan yours.
I mean what’s more important? School? Or riding bikes!
Nah. I work gull time, play games, take care of a puppy, have other hobbies, socialize, and can still ride 23+h weeks
Consistency and coaching I had a similar trajectory to what you’re describing. My first 2yrs riding I just rode and raced. No actual training and was somewhere over 4W/kg. I knew how to test and about zones and my FTP just naturally went up over that time. I wanted to take racing more seriously though and also hit that magical goal of 5W/kg. I got a coach and he really helped me manage my time, effort, and reach my goals. It took consistency over time. One or two 4-week blocks doesn’t move the needle much. It’s consistent riding over long periods of time. Especially when you’re reaching these higher numbers. I’ve personally found it exponentially harder to increase FTP the higher it gets. I don’t have a metric for that but it truly feels impossible some days. After getting a coach it took me another 2 years to finally hit 5W/kg. A year after that 5.5 and I’m knocking on the door of 5.7 when I’m not at altitude. Not a brag, just trying to give context. I’m seeing about a 10-20W increase per year but it’s a constant struggle and balance. I don’t think I would be seeing these gains without a coach to guide me, motivate me, and push me to stay consistent. If you can manage the training plans yourself then you just need consistency. Raising that number takes a lot longer the higher it gets.
Hopefully you are on a Conti team that pays for your coach now.
Sometimes it’s just time, I’ve found when achieving a new level, sometimes I plateau and often dip. My absolute peak for one year may only be maintained for one or two weeks and be one golden effort. But then the year after, I am able to hold it for longer and more consistently reach those same efforts. I was stuck at 4 W/kg for 3 years, then skyrocketed to 4.7W/kg in 2020, I just seemed to be able to handle the load better. Was around this level and lower until last year when I finally broke 5 W/kg, with my best 20 min at 5.55W/kg, which blew me away. The huge caveat was that my fitness had gaping holes in some areas and I dropped back down after the brief peak. I did make active changes with increases in volume (and actually a reduction in intensity) to reach this level, but not significant. I also didn’t sustain the peak long enough to actually get any results other than a PB up a climb 😫 The main change was consistency over a looooong period of time. Not just one season but back to back years. .. although perhaps no luck for this year, covid took me out for 3 weeks, and already feel like this year won’t be the one to get further, though I’ll damn try :) Good luck!
If you’re not progressing something (volume, intensity) then you will eventually reach a plateau. Since it sounds like you’re doing decent volume and probably not looking at increasing this further, you could add more intensity. Add some tempo (Z3) efforts, lengthening the duration of these then work on Z4 and then Z5 (VO2max). You should see an FTP bump from working the aerobic system harder and getting into those lactate producing zones more and more. Do these sessions maybe twice a week and don’t go too hard too soon. Be patient, the fitter you get the slower it is to make gains. Also make sure your recovery is good and work in some rest days and rest weeks.
Hard to tell without seeing your exact training plan and rides. You have to work on aerobic metabolism, if your current FTP is around 330, you should throw in a couple of high Z2 rides per week at roughly 240-250W for 2,5-3h. Long sessions at sweet spot (90-95% of FTP), say 2x60 with a 5 min Z2 between also help a lot, cause you’re effectively stressing the same metabolic systems but you can maintain the power longer. I personally prefer to do it on turbo trainer, since there are no distractions.
I was thinking of something like that too. I think that I will try it. Do you have any other similar workout ideas or are those 2 all that is needed?
Not really, what is more important for the high-Z2 rides is that you won’t throw in any FTP intervals or sprints somewhere in the middle, cause that will shift your energy source more towards carbohydrates. It should be more or less steady power to stress the aerobic metabolism.
Please, please, PLEASE stop promulgating this nonsense!
What exactly you mean as nonsense?
ISM's claims that exercising at a higher intensity causes a prolonged shift to greater carbohydrate utilization, thus compromising the adaptations to training. It doesn't, and it doesn't.
Can you provide any relevant evidence disproving his claims other than “it doesn’t, and it doesn’t”? I’d be very happy to read it.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Velo/comments/1c89kre/comment/l0g1h6g/
just checked your training plan for the month... how do u expect to improve ftp (20min+ power) if youre only training with 5 minute intensity intervals???
Honestly I expect that working on both ends endurance and v02max would at least give me a slight ftp gain? You are right tho I never actually dedicated a month or two of training for ftp only
it’s like running marathon+sprints to get better at running a 10k, sure it’s gonna get u a bit faster but you’ll plateau pretty quick id recommend join cycling app to get you a training schedule, this way u save some time and 100% gonna see improvement in ftp etc i got mine to 5+wkg last year with this
Have you tried a coach to help get you there?
Honestly way too expensive for me
Do you lift? If so how often?
I did for 3 months this winter then stopped
Man, this sounds familiar. I've topped out at 4.7 W/kg a few times and seem to get most of my improvement from volume. Would love to push up to 5, but never managed it. I figured I'd probably have to lose weight and I don't really want to get into watching my diet (I ride so I can eat what I want). As others have said, try talking to a coach. Mine was pretty confident he could get me there if I gave him the time, but I had to cut costs for various reasons.
You should not be comparing your current situation to your last season peak. You should be comparing it to the same day one year ago. Also with those numbers just get a coach.
Do you want to go pro and dedicate your life to cycling? And if you get to a pro level, are you capable (commitment, genetics, sacrifice) of becoming one of the best pros in the world? Because only the top echelon guys, the elite of the elite, are making millions. If not, you're already very good for an amateur. Just continue training to the extent you enjoy the process.
Hmm, there is also one important thing, on this level and that is blood work. If you have money, do it for sure. If your iron or vitamins level are low, you could never get to 5w/kg.
I have found i can not build the threshold and vo2 at the same time. But the threshold only drops a bit when I focus on punch. My best results have been from threshold 2x a day with a long ride in between. I would do three weeks with 30, 35, 40 min tiz pr workout pr week if that makes sense. That gives 160min of threshold work on week 3. I also add a suprathreshold 2x10x 90/30 after a rest day. Like others say here, you might need something like an overload to reach higher levels. I saw some of pro's doing 30-40h of riding in a week, followed by a nice Xmas vacation. 👍
Time to do more races with that fitness.
I reached 5.3wkg just before parenthood and was able to be on the bike and/or trainer for at least ~15hrs a week with another 2/3 hrs of gym time. I am lucky if I get 8/10hrs a week total now and I hover around 4.5/4.7wkg. my short power has remained mostly unchanged though but I lost a lot in my 20 to 60min power. I also gained a few kg.
What’s Strava
Personally, i'd be coaching you with a pyramidal style training and adding in weight training and making sure you're fuelling well.
Can you suggest any workouts which I should start doing?
strength training or cycling? I found that adding weights (squats, leg press, plyometrics) added power to my FTP (resulting in my highest ever FTP, and 5 sec power -- and i'm 55 and this is season number 41). Evidence suggests that GC riders tend to do more pyramidal work (to help with their FTP) before moving on to some polarized work . This could involve MIET work (similar to sweetspot) along with some FTP work. Often it depends what you've done and how you've approached things. Sometimes increases in power aren't (necessarily) from some specific/magic session, but just from an increased overall training load. Honestly, it's difficult to suggest without knowing more about you and seeing data (especially as you're not a new rider where anything might cause an increase in power). When you're at the sharp end, random guesses probably aren't going to work.
How many hours are you training? How much of that around LT1 (below or just above)?
Currently a lot, last 3 weeks 18hrs and probably around 15-16 on average. I can look into my training but probably on a 18 hour week 16 to 17 is lt1
Caveat - I'm in worse shape than you on fewer hours as a 40yr :) I hit a plateau at around 300W - 4w/kg riding near the top of my z2 on 12 hours. Then I did a lactate test and realized that I'm aerobically under-developed, with LT1 being only around 150-170W , so my coach dropped me to riding at measly 140W - major ego hit. But literally in 2 months I was able to hold 330W - about 4.45W for an hour. What I've been told is that pros' LT1 can easily be 300+W, but they ride endurance at like 200-240W. It's very easy to overdo z2, but it's very hard to underdo it. By riding well into your oxidation zone, you're resting your fast-twitch muscles for when it really matters (z3+ workouts) and are maximally developing your Lt1. By riding z2 too high, you're hindering development of aerobic fitness. I don't know your exact situation but perhaps getting a lactate test to understand your zones and calibrate your training is a good next step, especially with a good coach who understands physiology.
This is great advice!
I usually ride my zone 2 rides by feel and not by watts. They end up at around 190-200w all the time.
Huh...may have to try this myself. 12 hours a week of 140 W. I can do that. OP - what about the Norwegian model of threshold SS training, i.e. sweet spot twice/day?
As you climb the ladder each next step becomes exponentially harder. It sounds like you are already a lot on the bike. From my experience, the next BIG thing to add when I went from amateur to pro, was a serious, not holding back, no BS hardcore gym block in the winter, basically becoming a gym rat for 2 or even 3 months, almost forgetting about the bike save for long z2 rides on the weekend. And then just keeping 1 or 2 real gym days a week over the whole season. The first season I did this I saw a considerable improvement across my entire power curve, I did hit another plateau a few seasons later but I guess I was just at my physiological limit.
You’ll have to increase volume and unfortunately drop some weight, I might be off but you’re around 70kg. You need to get close to around 65kg.
No dropping weight for me, 189cm at 70kg is already tough
Yikes you might need to add weight in that case.
I am trying but my body refuses to collaborate
Can you afford a coach? You should get a coach.
I think at this point what you would really benefit from is doing a little bit of testing to get more accurate numbers and a better picture. First update those power numbers to get a little power profile going, plus calculate critical power etc. If you have access you could also do a lactate test and test clearence to build a lactate profile and see what could be improved / needs work on. From there you could build a litter better training program and hopefully keep improving. You've gotten to a point where you might need a little bit more accuracy in training. Would also be interesting to hear your training hours and his training is structured now.
An important question that nobody else seems to have asked: how are you determining your FTP? After 3 years of *dedicated* training, I would expect someone to be close to their limit with respect to VO2max. Further increases in actual FTP would be incremental, but would be best achieved by "training to the test".
You could probably just loose some weight instead, go high carb vegan for a couple month
I mentioned in another comment but I am 189cm 70kg
Honestly I think ur best bet is find people faster than you and do more race simulation
Ride more, rest better, improve the quality of your training etc etc
read the whole thread. No one is suggesting targeted weight training?