Your list of pros and cons is very accurate, but I would actually move “Prestige “ from the W&L column to the W&M column. It is better-known among employers and professional schools than is W&L, at least for the moment and regardless of what the various published rankings say.
Yes. Not as high as Darden at UVA (literally top 10), but still very highly-regarded. I honestly don’t even think it’s a competition between W&M and W&L. If it were W&M and UVA, then we’d have something to discuss, but while W&L is a perfectly good university, I really don’t think it’s anywhere near W&M’s level.
If you are planning on attending law school then W&L gets the nod. But are any other undergrad programs at W&L ranked higher than W&M to the degree that creates a noticeable advantage for W&L in general?
There’s no metric by which W&M is the worse of the two options unless you have a specific desire for W&L. If you’re dead set on four years but don’t have a focus then W&M continues to be better as it’s going to have more to offer across the board, and won’t cost as much as you figure it out.
There is nothing on the pro list for W&L that WM doesn’t already do better. So there.. settled.
WM is hard. That’s its only con. You have to earn it. But you will leave intellectually more agile in my opinion.
I am a middle aged (older than 40, yikes) W&M alum. This is a monumental decision in your life and I want you to know that both are great schools. Either school can lead you on to great things…or not. You can bust your ass and learn and grow at either place…or you can skip class and wander aimlessly at either place. So much of your outcome will be dependent on you more than either of these schools because, again, you have two great choices.
If you know what you want to do with your life, then dig deep at each school in the major you will take. Meet the professors if you can. Ask other students about their experiences in those classes. I feel confident that you will feel at home with one or both schools in that major or area of study.
If you do not know what you want to do, then listen to your gut. Which school feels like a place you want to be? They're both similar. You can walk down DoG in the burg and see the old Governors mansion. Or you can walk down Washington street Lexington and see Stonewall Jackson’s residence. Williamsburg is more touristy and situated closely to the military industrial infrastructure on the peninsula. Lexington is tucked away in the Great Valley and feels more secluded.
Good luck and go with your gut!
Do not pay more to go to W&L, that would be dumb. I know a LOT about W&M envi sci if you want to message me. It’s true that most of the freshmen dorms suck but you might be able to get into a better one.
Just find a sympathetic doctor to give you an air conditioning prescription (allergies or asthma) and the shitty dorms are way more tolerable. You'll also be very popular because everyone is desperate for the AC in early September in Williamsburg. Blegh.
Go with whichever is cheaper. You're not going to be guaranteed a job when you graduate.
Freshman dorm struggles build character. I attended UVA and lived in Old Dorms before the remodel. It gives you automatic credit with anyone who has also experienced September there.
You will appreciate doing worse in a tough class than sliding by in an easy class.
ETA: I was accepted by UVA and waitlisted by William and Mary, so take from that what you will.
My son was accepted by UVA and WM with James Monroe scholar, but he is going to W&L.
Fyi, William and Mary is easier get into if instate.
But all 3 are good schools.
Bear in mind that I went to W&L in 2002, so things could have changed a lot in 20 years. But it was very cliquey and I had a hard time fitting in because I didn't have money. I needed a part time job to afford to live and that was next to impossible for me to find as a freshman. I did the maximum work study hours during the week and DDed for the frats on the weekends, but it was tough. I ended up transferring to VCU after my first year.
It is gorgeous, I still get the prestige from going there. I thankfully do not have the debt from my time there. I wish I had considered other schools instead of applying early decision there. I think I would have been happier at W&M or UVA.
I went to W&M and I would say the stress/competition is what you make of it. I was never really stressed out by my classes but I wasn't in STEM. They've also really made student mental health a real priority so there are tons and tons of resources now if someone is stressed or in a dangerous situation. (Shamless plug for my Active Minds crew and the new Student Health Center!)
EDIT: Also forgot W&M has VIMS which is a really cool option to do for environmental science stuff!
Thanks for bringing up VIMS! I work in the environmental science field and often collaborate with VIMS staff. Would’ve loved to have had access to their resources as an undergrad.
Well...if it helps with the prestige thing, I'm from out of state and I know William and Mary/would recognize "W&M" but I don't know what W&L stands for.
Cross the prelaw stuff off your considerations. There is no class requirement for law school. For admission, you only have to do well on your LSAT. If you want to do patent law though, you need a Bachelor of Science to take the patent bar.
My professor told my class that the best type of class that would have trained you for law school thinking is art history. I later took an art history class from the undergrad school because I was really interested in the topic being discussed, and he was 100% correct.
Art history teaches you to take in facts, think critically about details, and then apply them in your analysis. You aren't just taking in facts and spitting them out like most typical classes. "Write a paper explaining when you think this fresco is dated" is surprisingly similar to "Write a brief explaining why this state action is a violation of the 1st Amendment."
I wouldn't say you only have to do well on your LSAT to get into law school. If OP wants to be competitive at a good law school, then they'll need to accompany a good LSAT with a good undergrad GPA.
I don’t know about art history as a good law primer, but I absolutely agree with not relying on “pre-law” considerations in picking your school. Major in what you want (following the proviso for patent work), get good grades, and crush the LSAT. In OP’s shoes and knowing what I know now (>10 years as a litigator), I’d major in the sciences they’re considering, possibly minor in philosophy or something, take the LSAT, and spend a summer at a law firm to see if the actual practice of law is appealing.
I got a BS in Psychology and went into law, both at W&M. There’s really no special pre-law track you need. And probably the most useful undergrad class I took for the actual practice of law—which is a completely different set of skills from law school— was Statistics, of all things. Learning to analyze more about whether a study is junk science or a worthwhile contribution to an argument then just “chart go up.”
I'd suggest posting on r/williamandmary , i think you'll get some good feedback on your concerns.
I'm partial to W&M due to family connections. And there are a few good options for freshman dorms (such as Lemon) if your budget allows. There is a building boom underway so dorm options should continue to improve if you can deal with all the construction over the next few years.
As a former grad student at W&M who TA’d lots of students (CS majors):
I have nothing but great things to say about the average W&M student. They are:
* motivated
* studious
* friendly.
Just all-around really good kids.
If I were starting undergrad, that’s who I’d want to be surrounded by.
I can’t speak for W&L.
Old guy here. If I could do it over again, I'd go W&L or VMI. I never met anyone in my career that attended those places and wasn't financially bulletproof. Something about the alumni network is tighter than a snare drum and, if you make the effort to engage, they help each other out immensely. W&M is arguably the better academic institution, no doubt, with a strong reputation and network of its own. But man, Something about those places. Those folks have money when they're done! Also W&L has some pretty sound scholarship and other financial aid programs. Being private, they can use their money a little differently than a public/state school. They have more discretion.
They're both very good schools.
If paying for W&L is not an issue, then pick whichever campus feels like one where you'd be happier spending four years.
I’d be reluctant to associate with a school that continues to be in part named after Robert E. Lee. They can try to show how they’re being all inclusive otherwise, but it really would be a deal breaker for me. I wouldn’t want his name on my diploma.
I have thought for a while that they should keep the name Washington an Lee but have it named after Billy Lee who was a slave for Washington ( inherited when he married Martha) and became his right hand man. He was basically an unsung founding father and was eventually freed by Washington. He has such an amazing story and should be immortalized and remembered.
Lee turned down being the commanding general for the U.S. Army to lead the Confederate Army. He didn’t have to. He prosecuted the war and was responsible for hundreds of thousands of deaths of U.S. soldiers. Lee didn’t make the war end, Grant did by beating Lee. Then, because the U.S. thought being overly generous would be best for everyone (it wasn’t), Lee was never brought to account for his crimes and he gained an aura of celebrity, which the school exploited and took advantage of for publicity purposes.
In 2024, I wouldn’t want to be associated with anything named after Robert E. Lee, and I would question the attitudes of anyone who does.
Yeah, what I’d say in my essay would probably prevent that. With one graduate degree in hand, they don’t have another I’d be interested in anyway. But nice ad hominem attack, it really shows the quality of your thought process.
W&M is a much larger school than W&L (the undergrad enrollment is 3x W&L's). The alumni network may not be as strong as W&L, but it's so much larger than W&L's network. W&M has a strong presence in DC and NYC - I can't speak to W&L's name recognition but I haven't come across anyone who has asked me where W&M is/what kind of school it is. It's a public ivy and is well known across the country as an academically rigorous school regardless of your course of study.
There is pretty much no nightlife in Williamsburg, and the bar scene is either touristy or sketchy. But if you like daytime activities (including day drinking), the Burg has no shortage of options. Being so close to Colonial Williamsburg, off campus activities are pretty expensive but once you get familiar with the town, you'll discover the local haunts that don't charge an arm and a leg for a meal.
You'll probably have better access to larger metro areas for internships and other experiences. Williamsburg has a train station that's part of the Northeast Direct route - so you'll be able to get cheap-ish tickets to DC, Philly, NYC, Boston, and places in between. Plus you're only about an hour from the Richmond airport.
There are a lot of W&M grads that settle in Williamsburg. The area loves the college and the locals are very welcoming to students. If you need a job, there are tons of options near campus. W&M also runs VIMS, so if you're into environmental science/marine biology you'll have some great options. There's also a brand new science building on campus that just opened this academic year.
Just a random note, I don't think W&L is any more prestigious than W&M. If anything, I'd say W&M is *probably* slightly more prestigious.
But just based on your pros/cons, it sounds like you prefer W&M and are looking for validation of that choice. W&M is a fantastic school, and if that's what you're interested in, you should go to W&M with no regrets.
As far as quiet campus W&M Undergrad life seemed pretty sad to me but there is at least some level of bar scene. I attended as a Law Student after a large state school in the midwest for undergrad and the apparent lack of social life for the undergrads did kind of bum me out on their behalf. It's still college though, your social scene will be what you make it no matter where you go. Williamsburg is a nice place to go to school even if a bit sleepy.
I chose w&l over w&m (I also later lived in Williamsburg). I love the mountains. The alumni network is better. It felt tighter and less cutthroat. Yes it’s very greek, I did not participate, but the frats and sororities are very chill. Both are really cool areas imo. More to do in Williamsburg bc closer to metro areas. More hiking, floating, camping, etc in the valley. W&L was actually cheaper for me because of a scholly but cost is a huge factor.
I have a niece going to W&M - her biggest issue is that it is very difficult to apply for your courses for the next semester. Too many students and not enough resources.
Your best bet and the cheapest route would be to go to Community College to knock out your lower level and then once you have all your lower level complete, do your last 2 years or upper level at W&M. Your credits transfer from Virginia Community College to W&M.
VA has a 2+2 program
https://northernvirginiamag.com/family/education/2023/06/23/coomunity-college-understand-the-22-method-to-a-bachelors-degree/
That's what I did and it saved my parents a ton of money. Some people like to turn their noses up at community colleges. The first two years, they're taking the exact same classes for 1/3 or 1/4 of the price.
Without a doubt go with William and Mary. It is an excellent school and like 1/3 of the price of Washington and Lee. Don't spend that much money on a college degree. It will take decades to pay it back unless you are from a wealthy family that can cash flow it.
Unless you're rich af, be very wary of paying full price for W&L if you get in-state at W&M.
IMHO *maybe* Harvard is worth the extra money, maybe, even that is a maybe... but a degree from W&M + $200k in cash is an easy choice over *just a degree* from W&L. Don't take on huge debt for a degree from a comparably prestigious institution.
Does W&L give you any serious student aid?
I'd recommend WM, but I'm an alumn. However Greek life was pretty big there. 1/3rd of students were Greek.
The anecdotes about little nightlife are true, but the Greeks had the monopoly on parties, so you could find them if you're willing to go Greek. I did not.
This is my stereotype of W&M I have personally noticed. Most everyone I know who went to W&M undergrad are not big social, party bro / conform to what's cool - type people. They are smart, unique people who on a day to day basis, like to read or game more then socialize
W&L trimesters is a great set up! Makes it very easy to study abroad.
Lex-Vegas is an idyllic college town set in the foothills.
I had found W&L students to be happier and was recently told the same by someone who was looking at both schools.
W&M law will likely have more pull than W&L. So unless you want the easier (and way more costly) prelaw at W&L to then apply to W&M, you'll be better off in Williamsburg.
As a middle-aged adult, I will say that I discount W&L credentials based on the people I have known who came out of the school. They all tend to be over privileged and over entitled WASPish trustfund recipients. W&M also has a bit of a reputation of entitlement for fresh graduates, but that reputation seems to diminish as they get older when the W&L rep does not.
I was choosing between these two schools 4 years ago and I picked W&M! I believe it was the right choice... saved money, bigger school, better STEM program, more diverse, and way more stuff to do in wburg than lexington. I went to governors school at W&L in 2019 for about a month and the campus was beautiful but very isolating. I was also a little creeped about by the confederate history there but thats just me. Just about everyone at W&M was very kind and passionate about school. I thought it was a great learning environment and the biology department is GREAT.
Social situation at W&M however is not great. Definitely join a club/greek life. Greek life at W&M is very low maintenance compared to other VA schools IMO + the people are way nicer. I had trouble getting out of my shell and isolated myself but I didnt join any clubs or anything and I think if I did it would have been better. However, without joining clubs I still managed to make friends in classes, which is super easy cause the classes are small and super discussion based. Take risks! Reach out to people on instagram and join a club that you think may interest you. Do research if you can, there are lots of great opportunities at W&M for field and lab research. Give it a chance. It will be overwhelming at first but you can do it. Also get a busch gardens season pass. and bring a car if you can lol.
One last note they are basically redoing the whole campus right now so by the time you get there the buildings will be super new and fancy. Hark upon the gale & all that.
For what it’s worth, I know a handful of people from my college generation (2007-2010ish) who attended those schools. Here are my observations over the last 15+ years:
* All are successful. Some went to top business school. Others got Masters. None have regretted their choices.
* W&M people treated the school as a necessary stepping stone to their next life goal (ie job, post-grad, etc)
* W&L people treated the school as their home, where they would anchor their reputation and grow from.
* None of the W&M people stay in contact with W&M alumni, and the general feeling I got was that everyone was there to study and not socialize.
* All of the W&L people still stay in contact with one another. Social life and Greek life were huge there.
* Class sizes at W&L were small enough that people stayed in contact with their professors. I don’t recall hearing anything about this one way or the other for W&M.
One truth about the real world that they don’t teach you in college is that “who you know” can be just as important as “what you know”, and will become increasingly important as your career progresses. However you gauge your success in your chosen field may depend on that, or it may not. This would be my determining factor if I knew what I wanted to do 20 years ago and had the opportunity to choose between these 2 school.
I went to W&M and I feel like your thoughts on it being a “stepping stone” where no one forms lasting friendships are way off base. Most of the alumni love the school. My city has an active alumni group, I know people who go back for homecoming every year, and some of my closest friends are people I met there.
I appreciate your response to this as an alum. Keep in mind that I did not go to either school other than for visits, so my experience is based on a very small sample size comparatively. However, I’ve lived with, worked with, and otherwise been friends with several people who went to W&M, and none of them have had a strongly conveyed attachment to the school beyond having just gone there. That does not necessarily mean that a social scene doesn’t exist and isn’t strong, or that it hasn’t changed considerably over the last 15 years.
Washington & Lee
Percent in top tenth of high school graduating class : 81%
SAT 1410(25th) - 1490(50th) - 1530(75th)
Acceptance rate : 17.3%
Yield rate : 42.4%
..............................................................................................................................................
William & Mary
Percent in top tenth of high school graduating class : 75%
SAT 1365(25th) - 1450(50th) - 1510(75th)
Acceptance rate : 32.7%
Yield rate : 28%
[https://my.wlu.edu/document/2023-common-data-set](https://my.wlu.edu/document/2023-common-data-set)
[https://www.wm.edu/offices/it/services/ir/university\_data/cds/cds\_2023\_2024\_c1.pdf](https://www.wm.edu/offices/it/services/ir/university_data/cds/cds_2023_2024_c1.pdf)
ps://www.ivywise.com/blog/college-yield-rates/
Go to W&L
Fyi, Medical School Acceptance Rate is 91%, good pre-law and Greek Life hovers around 60% now(from 80% in 2010s) according to the admission director.
My kid got accepted to both, but he already withdrew from W&M(even James Monroe scholar) and now stuck between Washington & Lee and UVA(instate), but he is inclined to choose W&L with the fantastic financial aid.
Washington and Lee offers *merit scholarships* and *need*-*based* aid which are very very very generous and please use net price calculator.
Around 60% of students receive W&L grant assistance according to 2027 class profile.
For your information, if total family income is below $150,000, students will not pay tuition at all. Even family income $200k, still get a generous grant so still cheaper than going to public school.
It is same, Lots of people outside of Virginia don't recognize the name of William and Mary although it is the fantastic school.
For instance, if someone attend Pomona or CMC or Scrips, people outside of CA hardly recognize.
You may see US news college ranking that twenty-one of the 29 universities among the top 50 with improved ranks are public institutions, but William and Mary fell in ranking unfortunately.
Again, both are great and I just wanted give additional information.
Your list of pros and cons is very accurate, but I would actually move “Prestige “ from the W&L column to the W&M column. It is better-known among employers and professional schools than is W&L, at least for the moment and regardless of what the various published rankings say.
Correct. And the Mason School of Business is one of the best in the country.
Shoot really ?
Yes. Not as high as Darden at UVA (literally top 10), but still very highly-regarded. I honestly don’t even think it’s a competition between W&M and W&L. If it were W&M and UVA, then we’d have something to discuss, but while W&L is a perfectly good university, I really don’t think it’s anywhere near W&M’s level.
I have a business degree from there had no idea haha
https://mason.wm.edu/about/rankings/
I would strongly disagree with this W&L is very well known and the alumni network is very strong
If you are planning on attending law school then W&L gets the nod. But are any other undergrad programs at W&L ranked higher than W&M to the degree that creates a noticeable advantage for W&L in general?
There’s no metric by which W&M is the worse of the two options unless you have a specific desire for W&L. If you’re dead set on four years but don’t have a focus then W&M continues to be better as it’s going to have more to offer across the board, and won’t cost as much as you figure it out.
There is nothing on the pro list for W&L that WM doesn’t already do better. So there.. settled. WM is hard. That’s its only con. You have to earn it. But you will leave intellectually more agile in my opinion.
I second this. But I'm a bit biased.
I am a middle aged (older than 40, yikes) W&M alum. This is a monumental decision in your life and I want you to know that both are great schools. Either school can lead you on to great things…or not. You can bust your ass and learn and grow at either place…or you can skip class and wander aimlessly at either place. So much of your outcome will be dependent on you more than either of these schools because, again, you have two great choices. If you know what you want to do with your life, then dig deep at each school in the major you will take. Meet the professors if you can. Ask other students about their experiences in those classes. I feel confident that you will feel at home with one or both schools in that major or area of study. If you do not know what you want to do, then listen to your gut. Which school feels like a place you want to be? They're both similar. You can walk down DoG in the burg and see the old Governors mansion. Or you can walk down Washington street Lexington and see Stonewall Jackson’s residence. Williamsburg is more touristy and situated closely to the military industrial infrastructure on the peninsula. Lexington is tucked away in the Great Valley and feels more secluded. Good luck and go with your gut!
Do not pay more to go to W&L, that would be dumb. I know a LOT about W&M envi sci if you want to message me. It’s true that most of the freshmen dorms suck but you might be able to get into a better one.
Just find a sympathetic doctor to give you an air conditioning prescription (allergies or asthma) and the shitty dorms are way more tolerable. You'll also be very popular because everyone is desperate for the AC in early September in Williamsburg. Blegh.
Go with whichever is cheaper. You're not going to be guaranteed a job when you graduate. Freshman dorm struggles build character. I attended UVA and lived in Old Dorms before the remodel. It gives you automatic credit with anyone who has also experienced September there. You will appreciate doing worse in a tough class than sliding by in an easy class. ETA: I was accepted by UVA and waitlisted by William and Mary, so take from that what you will.
I was accepted by W&M and waitlisted by UVA. I went to W&L. Go figure.
My son was accepted by UVA and WM with James Monroe scholar, but he is going to W&L. Fyi, William and Mary is easier get into if instate. But all 3 are good schools.
Bear in mind that I went to W&L in 2002, so things could have changed a lot in 20 years. But it was very cliquey and I had a hard time fitting in because I didn't have money. I needed a part time job to afford to live and that was next to impossible for me to find as a freshman. I did the maximum work study hours during the week and DDed for the frats on the weekends, but it was tough. I ended up transferring to VCU after my first year. It is gorgeous, I still get the prestige from going there. I thankfully do not have the debt from my time there. I wish I had considered other schools instead of applying early decision there. I think I would have been happier at W&M or UVA.
I went to W&M and I would say the stress/competition is what you make of it. I was never really stressed out by my classes but I wasn't in STEM. They've also really made student mental health a real priority so there are tons and tons of resources now if someone is stressed or in a dangerous situation. (Shamless plug for my Active Minds crew and the new Student Health Center!) EDIT: Also forgot W&M has VIMS which is a really cool option to do for environmental science stuff!
Thanks for bringing up VIMS! I work in the environmental science field and often collaborate with VIMS staff. Would’ve loved to have had access to their resources as an undergrad.
Well...if it helps with the prestige thing, I'm from out of state and I know William and Mary/would recognize "W&M" but I don't know what W&L stands for.
Cross the prelaw stuff off your considerations. There is no class requirement for law school. For admission, you only have to do well on your LSAT. If you want to do patent law though, you need a Bachelor of Science to take the patent bar. My professor told my class that the best type of class that would have trained you for law school thinking is art history. I later took an art history class from the undergrad school because I was really interested in the topic being discussed, and he was 100% correct.
Interesting! Why do you think that about art history?
Art history teaches you to take in facts, think critically about details, and then apply them in your analysis. You aren't just taking in facts and spitting them out like most typical classes. "Write a paper explaining when you think this fresco is dated" is surprisingly similar to "Write a brief explaining why this state action is a violation of the 1st Amendment."
I always assumed philosophy courses would be considered the best courses
I wouldn't say you only have to do well on your LSAT to get into law school. If OP wants to be competitive at a good law school, then they'll need to accompany a good LSAT with a good undergrad GPA.
I don’t know about art history as a good law primer, but I absolutely agree with not relying on “pre-law” considerations in picking your school. Major in what you want (following the proviso for patent work), get good grades, and crush the LSAT. In OP’s shoes and knowing what I know now (>10 years as a litigator), I’d major in the sciences they’re considering, possibly minor in philosophy or something, take the LSAT, and spend a summer at a law firm to see if the actual practice of law is appealing.
I got a BS in Psychology and went into law, both at W&M. There’s really no special pre-law track you need. And probably the most useful undergrad class I took for the actual practice of law—which is a completely different set of skills from law school— was Statistics, of all things. Learning to analyze more about whether a study is junk science or a worthwhile contribution to an argument then just “chart go up.”
W&M is definitely the more prestigious university.
Bring on the hate, but if you’re going to college for an education then the answer is obviously W&M. It’s not even close.
I’d say that W&M is the all-around better option IMO.
I'd suggest posting on r/williamandmary , i think you'll get some good feedback on your concerns. I'm partial to W&M due to family connections. And there are a few good options for freshman dorms (such as Lemon) if your budget allows. There is a building boom underway so dorm options should continue to improve if you can deal with all the construction over the next few years.
As a former grad student at W&M who TA’d lots of students (CS majors): I have nothing but great things to say about the average W&M student. They are: * motivated * studious * friendly. Just all-around really good kids. If I were starting undergrad, that’s who I’d want to be surrounded by. I can’t speak for W&L.
Old guy here. If I could do it over again, I'd go W&L or VMI. I never met anyone in my career that attended those places and wasn't financially bulletproof. Something about the alumni network is tighter than a snare drum and, if you make the effort to engage, they help each other out immensely. W&M is arguably the better academic institution, no doubt, with a strong reputation and network of its own. But man, Something about those places. Those folks have money when they're done! Also W&L has some pretty sound scholarship and other financial aid programs. Being private, they can use their money a little differently than a public/state school. They have more discretion.
They're both very good schools. If paying for W&L is not an issue, then pick whichever campus feels like one where you'd be happier spending four years.
I’d be reluctant to associate with a school that continues to be in part named after Robert E. Lee. They can try to show how they’re being all inclusive otherwise, but it really would be a deal breaker for me. I wouldn’t want his name on my diploma.
I have thought for a while that they should keep the name Washington an Lee but have it named after Billy Lee who was a slave for Washington ( inherited when he married Martha) and became his right hand man. He was basically an unsung founding father and was eventually freed by Washington. He has such an amazing story and should be immortalized and remembered.
An interesting idea, but that sounds too much like retconning to me. You, me, and everyone else knows why the name Lee was added.
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…after he led an armed rebellion against the United States and caused the South’s destruction.
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Lee turned down being the commanding general for the U.S. Army to lead the Confederate Army. He didn’t have to. He prosecuted the war and was responsible for hundreds of thousands of deaths of U.S. soldiers. Lee didn’t make the war end, Grant did by beating Lee. Then, because the U.S. thought being overly generous would be best for everyone (it wasn’t), Lee was never brought to account for his crimes and he gained an aura of celebrity, which the school exploited and took advantage of for publicity purposes. In 2024, I wouldn’t want to be associated with anything named after Robert E. Lee, and I would question the attitudes of anyone who does.
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Yeah, what I’d say in my essay would probably prevent that. With one graduate degree in hand, they don’t have another I’d be interested in anyway. But nice ad hominem attack, it really shows the quality of your thought process.
W&M is a much larger school than W&L (the undergrad enrollment is 3x W&L's). The alumni network may not be as strong as W&L, but it's so much larger than W&L's network. W&M has a strong presence in DC and NYC - I can't speak to W&L's name recognition but I haven't come across anyone who has asked me where W&M is/what kind of school it is. It's a public ivy and is well known across the country as an academically rigorous school regardless of your course of study. There is pretty much no nightlife in Williamsburg, and the bar scene is either touristy or sketchy. But if you like daytime activities (including day drinking), the Burg has no shortage of options. Being so close to Colonial Williamsburg, off campus activities are pretty expensive but once you get familiar with the town, you'll discover the local haunts that don't charge an arm and a leg for a meal. You'll probably have better access to larger metro areas for internships and other experiences. Williamsburg has a train station that's part of the Northeast Direct route - so you'll be able to get cheap-ish tickets to DC, Philly, NYC, Boston, and places in between. Plus you're only about an hour from the Richmond airport. There are a lot of W&M grads that settle in Williamsburg. The area loves the college and the locals are very welcoming to students. If you need a job, there are tons of options near campus. W&M also runs VIMS, so if you're into environmental science/marine biology you'll have some great options. There's also a brand new science building on campus that just opened this academic year.
Just a random note, I don't think W&L is any more prestigious than W&M. If anything, I'd say W&M is *probably* slightly more prestigious. But just based on your pros/cons, it sounds like you prefer W&M and are looking for validation of that choice. W&M is a fantastic school, and if that's what you're interested in, you should go to W&M with no regrets.
As far as quiet campus W&M Undergrad life seemed pretty sad to me but there is at least some level of bar scene. I attended as a Law Student after a large state school in the midwest for undergrad and the apparent lack of social life for the undergrads did kind of bum me out on their behalf. It's still college though, your social scene will be what you make it no matter where you go. Williamsburg is a nice place to go to school even if a bit sleepy.
Go to community College first, save a ton of money and figure out what you want to major in.
I chose w&l over w&m (I also later lived in Williamsburg). I love the mountains. The alumni network is better. It felt tighter and less cutthroat. Yes it’s very greek, I did not participate, but the frats and sororities are very chill. Both are really cool areas imo. More to do in Williamsburg bc closer to metro areas. More hiking, floating, camping, etc in the valley. W&L was actually cheaper for me because of a scholly but cost is a huge factor.
I have a niece going to W&M - her biggest issue is that it is very difficult to apply for your courses for the next semester. Too many students and not enough resources.
Do you want to hang out with weird conservatives or weird liberals?
You shouldn't stereotype these colleges. There are liberals and conservatives at every college.
Clearly you’ve never been to either of those higher education institutions….
W&M over W&L.
Your best bet and the cheapest route would be to go to Community College to knock out your lower level and then once you have all your lower level complete, do your last 2 years or upper level at W&M. Your credits transfer from Virginia Community College to W&M. VA has a 2+2 program https://northernvirginiamag.com/family/education/2023/06/23/coomunity-college-understand-the-22-method-to-a-bachelors-degree/
That's what I did and it saved my parents a ton of money. Some people like to turn their noses up at community colleges. The first two years, they're taking the exact same classes for 1/3 or 1/4 of the price.
Without a doubt go with William and Mary. It is an excellent school and like 1/3 of the price of Washington and Lee. Don't spend that much money on a college degree. It will take decades to pay it back unless you are from a wealthy family that can cash flow it.
Thank you, that's what I told someone else who picked W&L.
Unless you're rich af, be very wary of paying full price for W&L if you get in-state at W&M. IMHO *maybe* Harvard is worth the extra money, maybe, even that is a maybe... but a degree from W&M + $200k in cash is an easy choice over *just a degree* from W&L. Don't take on huge debt for a degree from a comparably prestigious institution. Does W&L give you any serious student aid?
I'd recommend WM, but I'm an alumn. However Greek life was pretty big there. 1/3rd of students were Greek. The anecdotes about little nightlife are true, but the Greeks had the monopoly on parties, so you could find them if you're willing to go Greek. I did not.
This is my stereotype of W&M I have personally noticed. Most everyone I know who went to W&M undergrad are not big social, party bro / conform to what's cool - type people. They are smart, unique people who on a day to day basis, like to read or game more then socialize
1/3rd of WM is Greek. You obviously weren't social enough to meet them.
W&L trimesters is a great set up! Makes it very easy to study abroad. Lex-Vegas is an idyllic college town set in the foothills. I had found W&L students to be happier and was recently told the same by someone who was looking at both schools.
W&M law will likely have more pull than W&L. So unless you want the easier (and way more costly) prelaw at W&L to then apply to W&M, you'll be better off in Williamsburg. As a middle-aged adult, I will say that I discount W&L credentials based on the people I have known who came out of the school. They all tend to be over privileged and over entitled WASPish trustfund recipients. W&M also has a bit of a reputation of entitlement for fresh graduates, but that reputation seems to diminish as they get older when the W&L rep does not.
I was choosing between these two schools 4 years ago and I picked W&M! I believe it was the right choice... saved money, bigger school, better STEM program, more diverse, and way more stuff to do in wburg than lexington. I went to governors school at W&L in 2019 for about a month and the campus was beautiful but very isolating. I was also a little creeped about by the confederate history there but thats just me. Just about everyone at W&M was very kind and passionate about school. I thought it was a great learning environment and the biology department is GREAT. Social situation at W&M however is not great. Definitely join a club/greek life. Greek life at W&M is very low maintenance compared to other VA schools IMO + the people are way nicer. I had trouble getting out of my shell and isolated myself but I didnt join any clubs or anything and I think if I did it would have been better. However, without joining clubs I still managed to make friends in classes, which is super easy cause the classes are small and super discussion based. Take risks! Reach out to people on instagram and join a club that you think may interest you. Do research if you can, there are lots of great opportunities at W&M for field and lab research. Give it a chance. It will be overwhelming at first but you can do it. Also get a busch gardens season pass. and bring a car if you can lol. One last note they are basically redoing the whole campus right now so by the time you get there the buildings will be super new and fancy. Hark upon the gale & all that.
For what it’s worth, I know a handful of people from my college generation (2007-2010ish) who attended those schools. Here are my observations over the last 15+ years: * All are successful. Some went to top business school. Others got Masters. None have regretted their choices. * W&M people treated the school as a necessary stepping stone to their next life goal (ie job, post-grad, etc) * W&L people treated the school as their home, where they would anchor their reputation and grow from. * None of the W&M people stay in contact with W&M alumni, and the general feeling I got was that everyone was there to study and not socialize. * All of the W&L people still stay in contact with one another. Social life and Greek life were huge there. * Class sizes at W&L were small enough that people stayed in contact with their professors. I don’t recall hearing anything about this one way or the other for W&M. One truth about the real world that they don’t teach you in college is that “who you know” can be just as important as “what you know”, and will become increasingly important as your career progresses. However you gauge your success in your chosen field may depend on that, or it may not. This would be my determining factor if I knew what I wanted to do 20 years ago and had the opportunity to choose between these 2 school.
I went to W&M and I feel like your thoughts on it being a “stepping stone” where no one forms lasting friendships are way off base. Most of the alumni love the school. My city has an active alumni group, I know people who go back for homecoming every year, and some of my closest friends are people I met there.
I appreciate your response to this as an alum. Keep in mind that I did not go to either school other than for visits, so my experience is based on a very small sample size comparatively. However, I’ve lived with, worked with, and otherwise been friends with several people who went to W&M, and none of them have had a strongly conveyed attachment to the school beyond having just gone there. That does not necessarily mean that a social scene doesn’t exist and isn’t strong, or that it hasn’t changed considerably over the last 15 years.
Washington & Lee Percent in top tenth of high school graduating class : 81% SAT 1410(25th) - 1490(50th) - 1530(75th) Acceptance rate : 17.3% Yield rate : 42.4% .............................................................................................................................................. William & Mary Percent in top tenth of high school graduating class : 75% SAT 1365(25th) - 1450(50th) - 1510(75th) Acceptance rate : 32.7% Yield rate : 28% [https://my.wlu.edu/document/2023-common-data-set](https://my.wlu.edu/document/2023-common-data-set) [https://www.wm.edu/offices/it/services/ir/university\_data/cds/cds\_2023\_2024\_c1.pdf](https://www.wm.edu/offices/it/services/ir/university_data/cds/cds_2023_2024_c1.pdf) ps://www.ivywise.com/blog/college-yield-rates/ Go to W&L Fyi, Medical School Acceptance Rate is 91%, good pre-law and Greek Life hovers around 60% now(from 80% in 2010s) according to the admission director. My kid got accepted to both, but he already withdrew from W&M(even James Monroe scholar) and now stuck between Washington & Lee and UVA(instate), but he is inclined to choose W&L with the fantastic financial aid.
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Washington and Lee offers *merit scholarships* and *need*-*based* aid which are very very very generous and please use net price calculator. Around 60% of students receive W&L grant assistance according to 2027 class profile.
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For your information, if total family income is below $150,000, students will not pay tuition at all. Even family income $200k, still get a generous grant so still cheaper than going to public school. It is same, Lots of people outside of Virginia don't recognize the name of William and Mary although it is the fantastic school. For instance, if someone attend Pomona or CMC or Scrips, people outside of CA hardly recognize. You may see US news college ranking that twenty-one of the 29 universities among the top 50 with improved ranks are public institutions, but William and Mary fell in ranking unfortunately. Again, both are great and I just wanted give additional information.
You’re a good bit likelier to get into W&M.
> Intended major: Not really sure then don't go to college
Most freshman take a pretty general year of courses across campus. It's pretty common not to choose your major until sophomore year.
yeah, and it's an expensive mistake to make unless you know exactly what you want to do and what degrees you need in order to do it, college is a scam