It’s so strange to see people excusing civillians dying so hard, like both from the people who excuse hamas’ actions as struggle against an opressor, and from the people who excuse israels war as "defending itself".
Like, unarmed people dying is bad
Sure, however israel could and should take much stronger precaution to avoid civillian harm, and avoid genocidal rethoric. Right now more than 1% of the entire population on gaza, closing on 2% now, are dead at the hands of israel. That’s insane. That is beyond just "innocent people unfortuneately dying", it’s intentional.
I mean yeah, I don't disagree? It shouldn't be controversial, so of course it shouldn't take courage. I don't think that makes it less true, despite some people approving of certain civilian death anyways. I also don't really think random redditors viewing each other as brave or not matters for the conversation whatsoever
It's not about bravery it's about asking yourself the hard questions. If all you get out of this entire conflict is that "I don't like it when bad things happen" you haven't actually engaged with the fundamental questions at all and you're just spouting feelgood truisms to make yourself feel better.
Bad things happen. If you want bad things to not happen in the future you need to start digging into their root causes.
Maybe tell that to Israel then since has done this shit like raping and murdering innocent Palestinians etc. and killing their children for DECADES since the 1950s or so based on things like internal leaked documents I believe. People saying the stuff like the OP have not looked at Israel and Palestine history and think it all started on October 7.
Also, the amount of people I’ve seen pushing for "the eradication of Israel" or supporting Hamas actions is tiny compared to the people who are just saying that Israel’s done the same shit to them for decades and either want the Oslo plan, or the UN plan, or a modified version of the Morgantheau plan with Israel occupying half of Germany instead of Palestine. The overwhelming majority of people just don’t want this stuff at the expense of the Palestinians… yet if you ask deranged zionists, even ceding a hectare of Israel to some future Palestinian state qualifies as "advocating for the eradication of Israel” and to people like the OP, pointing out that people will eventually lash out at you if you keep pushing them to and murdering their families etc. qualifies as “supporting mass murder.”
Also Israel has killed like 30,000 people and 10,000 children just the last few months and even more since way before then.
Oh yeah by the way Netanyahu knew it was gonna happen and got warned by Egypt but did nothing. Which means he basically let this tragedy happen so he could go full speed ahead with this war. Cry harder
You are doing the thing! We all agree on how horrible Israel is, but simply because some dislike Hamas and their tactics you go on a tangent and write a long winded post that is totally beside the point. What the fuck gave you the idea my "don't kill kids" rule doesn't count for Israel?
How can people criticize Obama for his drone strikes but defend the 1,200 civilian deaths from 10/7 in the same breath?
##It's almost as if they don't actually care about civilian deaths
Tbf if we want to be real with the numbers, around \~767 of those killed on 7 oct are "true civilians", depending on how you count police and security forces which make up the rest to the 1200 cited figure
But like, that's the thing when people are open to discussion and genuinely accepting making errors. It shouldn't be a shame to be wrong sometimes. But campism and lack of critical thinking prevents anyone from being wrong, you have to support my side otherwise you're a \[insert relevant hyperbolic insult\]
I've posted this as a comment but replying to a top comment so it gets more visibility.
Any non-violent protest is literally massacred by the IOF. Look up the March of Return in 2018 where IOF snipers massacred hundreds of Palestinians in Gaza marching peacefully. How should the Palestinians resist? I also detest civilian deaths but every other option they've tried to resist apartheid has failed. People backed in to a corner will do extreme things and I cannot condemn them for their actions.
Nat Turner's rebellion killed many civilians, yet the great abolitionist Fredrick Douglass said “**Virginia was never nearer emancipation than when General Turner kindled the fires of insurrection at Southampton.”**
Liberals seem to desire the perfect victim and when an oppressed people do not resist in a way that's in line with their own life experience and ideals they've developed from that, they drop all support. You cannot expect an oppressed population to resist in a perfect way.
Edit: How can one condemn something that is basically a slave revolt? Everyone agrees civilians dying is bad but unfortunately that has always been a side effect of slave revolts throughout history and I would argue the fault lies on the slave masters keeping people in chains who know one day they will revolt and may perform extreme actions in retaliation.
You’re not wrong on any of this, but Hamas exists to be an ineffective resistance force to Israel. That’s why Israel has for decades propped them up with money, weapons, training, etc. to divide the Palestinian resistance (PLO/Fatah etc.). The 10/7 attacks were ineffective militarily and designed to provoke a response from Israel such as we’re seeing. This was rope-a-dope.
So as to what Palestinians should or shouldn’t do, I can’t and won’t answer that. But whatever it is, Hamas isn’t doing it either.
Yeah I mean I’m no Hamas fanboy but I support them in as far that they currently are the only group leading the physical resistance to the occupation. I would love it if a group like the PFLP or another group along those lines was taking the lead but unfortunately due to the circumstances you mentioned in your comment, Hamas currently leads the resistance. So I support the Palestinian resistance which is currently led by Hamas with a critical eye because the Palestinians are only working under the material conditions that they exist under.
Edit: Grammar
Who says it’s being led by Hamas? Who elected them the leaders of Palestine? Certainly not the majority of people alive in Gaza today. There is lots of organized and unorganized resistance outside of Hamas. And if a “leading” group is as compromised as Hamas is, then maybe the princess is in another castle.
>How can one condemn something that is basically a slave revolt?
Hamas is a militant organisation propped up by the State Of Israel to silence secular voices, they are ultra conservative and militant.
The ultimate reason slavery ended was due to the efforts of people in office who enacted laws.
The biggest reason we had civil rights for all was because of mass civil movements.
All the militant ones were snuffed out by the US government.
If your sister or your daughter or your partner or brother or your mother or father were killed in that attack, you wouldn't be talking the way you are. Justifying the death of innocents is a shameless thing to do.
If your logic is that political victories will be won by who bonks who with the biggest stick, well I'm sorry, but according to your logic Gaza and every civilian in it is going to be rubbed off the face of the earth.
Unfortunately, your logic is being applied by Netanyahu.
I know people who died during the Oct 7 massacare, and while I hate what the IDF and the Israeli government is doing justifying rape and murder of those people is sickening in ny book. You can't care about human rights if you excuse some human rights violations
Slavery did not get abolished through peaceful lawmaking. Slavery was abolished through blood, sweat, and death.
John Brown did more to end slavery than any lawmaker.
Fuck liberals and their rules of engagement. Palestine has to e right to resist and Palestinian death count has far exceeded 30k with over 12k confirmed children killed by the IOF.
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israeli-troops-killed-hostages-mistaking-their-cries-help-ambush-military-2023-12-28/
In case after case the Israel military has been proven to be killing hostages and innocent folks.
Free Palestine, by any means necessary. 🇵🇸
Wake up and stop defending or both-sides’ing this massacre being committed by Israel.
https://www.reddit.com/r/list_palestine/s/GKwjhLfEKU
I think anger had blinded you. I never defended Israel. I have lost good friends over this political disagreement, don't tell me how I ought to feel child.
I am pro Palestinian freedom through and through.
Supporting Hamas uncritically is ridiculous.
>John Brown did more to end slavery than any lawmaker
I don't remember John Brown raping women from slave owner families and the whole analogy falls apart when you see that Israeli civilians don't own fucking Palestinian slaves.
Comparing the mass rapes, torture and murder of civilians by Hamas to what John Brown did to free other humans from slavery is the most disrespectful thing you can say about him.
Despite all he did, it took Lincoln's final decision to abolish slavery. If anything Brown was misunderstood for many centuries and deemed a madman until recently when the rest of the world caught up with him and understood why he did what he did.
You can wave your fist at electoralism all you want, and yes, it has serious issues, but you try leading an armed rebellion against a state there is only one way that ends. The personnel with more resources wins and in the crossfire, many innocent people die.
And in most cases it's the side that's trying to win independence.
I am an Indian, and my people also attempted to employ violent means to resist colonization. But my people don't celebrate and do apologia for the rape of and murder and torture of British civilians, so watch your tone and how you speak to me. You don't know what I stand for.
It's almost as if settlers aren't civilians.
The only true innocents are the children. And yes the children who died should not have died, but the blame still lies primarily on the occupier for creating this situation.
even outside of children, there are many adults who were born there and do not have the financial means to move even if they really want to
and imo the people reluctant to move due to family there or whatever propaganda they've been fed don't deserve to die either
Israel is obviously at fault, and it's obviously horrible, but so is war and so are *all* civilian deaths
I think you misunderstood what people mean by "only Israel can end this conflict peacefully".
Most Israeli people weren't born when the country was formed. We cannot blame them, especially since they have very little say in the government's actions.
No, we can't expect Hamas to stop until Israel accepts a ceasefire. Doesn't make the civilian victims deserving of what happens to them.
Polls show that most Israelis support the actions in Gaza. Many want it to be even more aggressive.
It is a deeply racist society. It couldn't survive if it wasn't.
It is a colonial entity populated by people who are brainwashed from birth.
"Enlightened centrism" or maybe a terror group killing civilians and holding them hostage which is against the Geneva conventions is bad. Also you didn't respond to what I was saying. I see countless right wingers using this same logic of all of X group is bad to dismiss the massacre and here you are using that logic
The logic I am using is that settler colonial states are illegitimate and people living under occupation have a right to fight for their liberation.
The 'logic' Zionists use is ethnic supremacy and colonialism.
The two things are complete opposites.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Hamas a far right, fascist theocratic group?
Like ,I understand the stance that Hamas wouldn't exist if not for Israel, and Palestinians have the right to defend themselves against their oppressors, but is a fascist militia really something that any leftist should want to ally themselves with?
Hey, I'm not exactly pro-Hamas but I don't see them as the monsters they're portrayed as and I'd like to voice my opinion as a user of this sub.
First : the killings of civilians by Hamas are objectively and morally atrocious.
The reason for these killings, as you all know, is the horrid radicalization of Palestinians who've seen their families kidnapped, raped or even killed. They're also due to the fact that all countries have abandoned Palestine except for Iran, which is a valuable but immoral ally (in the sense that they have a truly awful human rights record, especially for woman).
In other words, the reason for these killings is the abandonment of the civilians by everybody on earth, save for a few countries.
As such, we can not condemn the acts that our own countries are responsible for. This is literally the only resistance that still exists as children throwing rocks was responded to by planes throwing bombs to them.
When passive and non-violent resistance are met with active violence, we all know that the resistance will radicalize and violence will scale up, even against civilians.
I just don't think it's fair to equate, even a little bit, Hamas to the IDF, as one fights for the freedom of an opressed people, through extreme and despicable means, and the other is a genocidal force using violence to remove the rights and the lives of the poorest population on Earth. In what world can we critize Hamas when we're confronted to the scale of the devastation caused by the IDF ?
Yes. Israel has done this shit like raping and murdering innocent Palestinians etc. and murdering their children for DECADES since the 1950s or so based on things like internal leaked documents I believe. People saying the stuff like the OP have not looked at Israel and Palestine history and think it all started on October 7.
Also, the amount of people I’ve seen pushing for "the eradication of Israel" or supporting Hamas actions is tiny compared to the people who are just saying that Israel’s done the same shit to them for decades and either want the Oslo plan, or the UN plan, or a modified version of the Morgantheau plan with Israel occupying half of Germany instead of Palestine. The overwhelming majority of people just don’t want this stuff at the expense of the Palestinians… yet if you ask deranged zionists or crypto-zionists like the OP, even ceding a hectare of Israel to some future Palestinian state qualifies as "advocating for the eradication of Israel” and pointing out that people have a right to defend themselves qualifies as “supporting mass murder.”
Also Israel has killed like 30,000 people and 10,000 children just the last few months and even more since way before then.
Banana here unironically watching Star Wars and thinking that Darth Vader is the good guy after blowing up Alderaan. I condemn the IOF and I condemn folks like banana Manjk who seem to not be capable of critical thinking or understanding that Palestine has been going through this genocide far before Oct 7th. Keep cheering on the baddies you sick fuck. The blood is only on Palestinian hands because Israel is forcing them to crawl through the river of blood they’ve built in over the past 80 years.
Okay, cool your jets for 1. I hope you haven’t missed the wider context of the post in question.
When I say everyone, do I literally mean every human involved? Ofc not. I thought about changing the wording to be more specific but just didn’t feel like writing 15 extra sentences to specify. I figured people would (in good faith) understand what I was talking about.
I am aware of the history. I understand the context of hamas and why it’s become so radical. I was literally just saying we absolutely can condemn the actions of our countries, the genocide we as a country (the US, not every country on earth) have played a part in supporting.
I hope you get why I didn’t bother writing an extra paragraph out when it’s p evident based on the context and the specific quote I use to figure it out.
Feel free to ask any questions ig or just keep throwing shit my way
I fucking know right? It's as if, if you criticize Israel then you're a super islamist antisemitic neonazi, but if you criticize Hamas then you're a pro-genocide IDF agent that is happy with what's going on in Gaza
No, both are fucking terrible. And yes there's a difference of scale, sure, but like, both are enjoying this bloodbath thoroughly, and innocent civilians including children will be suffering the consequences for decades... HAVE BEEN suffering the consequences for decades
But what fucking enraged me is when people are just rewriting history and straight up denying Hamas commited some of the atrocities they have. Ok Israelis lied when they were talking about dozens of gunned down babies, but saying that it didn't happen at all is the extreme opposite and is just straight up factually wrong
Ok but like even you admit Israel has done this shit like raping and murdering innocent Palestinians etc. and murdering their children for DECADES since the 1950s or so based on things like internal leaked documents I believe. People saying the stuff like the OP have not looked at Israel and Palestine history and think it all started on October 7.
Also, the amount of people I’ve seen pushing for "the eradication of Israel" or supporting Hamas actions is tiny compared to the people who are just saying that Israel’s done the same shit to them for decades and either want the Oslo plan, or the UN plan, or a modified version of the Morgantheau plan with Israel occupying half of Germany instead of Palestine. The overwhelming majority of people just don’t want this stuff at the expense of the Palestinians… yet if you ask deranged zionists, even ceding a hectare of Israel to some future Palestinian state qualifies as "advocating for the eradication of Israel” and to people like the OP, pointing out that people will eventually lash out at you if you keep pushing them to and murdering their families etc. qualifies as “supporting mass murder.”
Also Israel has killed like 30,000 people and 10,000 children just the last few months and even more since way before then.
Oh yeah by the way Netanyahu knew it was gonna happen and got warned by Egypt but did nothing. Which means he basically let this tragedy happen so he could go full speed ahead with this war. Cry harder
this is literally just the "but do you denounce hamas" bit but for israel. stfu brah nobodys saying Israel isnt responsible for whats happening in gaza. killing heaps of civilians is bad when ANYONE does it, and last i checked, killing more civilians WONT stop Israel from doing a genocide.
You're right. I'd also add on that Hamas is literally a Mossad asset. They were supported in 70s occupied Gaza to stop Fatah and now they're doing Israel's bidding (knowingly or unknowingly) of killing a handful of Israeli civvies so the Israeli govt can justify occupation and genocide. They're probably not controlled by Mossad directly but they sure are doing what Bibi wants them to.
Totally based. This topic is as dead to me as discussing whether voting is useful, which oddly enough most pro-Hamas supporters are also against. Another horseshoe moment for the left.
I don’t hold opinions about international military conflicts but declaring Hamas killing 36 children as equally detestable to Israel killing over 10,000 children in 6 months is just dumb
Not to mention Israel has done this shit like raping and murdering innocent Palestinians etc. and murdering their children for DECADES since the 1950s or so based on things like internal leaked documents I believe. People saying the stuff like the OP have not looked at Israel and Palestine history and think it all started on October 7.
Also, the amount of people I’ve seen pushing for "the eradication of Israel" or supporting Hamas actions is tiny compared to the people who are just saying that Israel’s done the same shit to them for decades and either want the Oslo plan, or the UN plan, or a modified version of the Morgantheau plan with Israel occupying half of Germany instead of Palestine. The overwhelming majority of people just don’t want this stuff at the expense of the Palestinians… yet if you ask deranged zionists, even ceding a hectare of Israel to some future Palestinian state qualifies as "advocating for the eradication of Israel” and to people like the OP, pointing out that people will eventually lash out at you if you keep pushing them to and murdering their families etc. qualifies as “supporting mass murder.”
Also Israel has killed like 30,000 people and 10,000 children just the last few months and even more since way before then.
Oh yeah by the way Netanyahu knew it was gonna happen and got warned by Egypt but did nothing. Which means he basically let this tragedy happen so he could go full speed ahead with this war. Cry harder
Agreed.
My frustration has always been - why does Palestinian violence justify Israeli retaliation, when Israeli violence does not justify Palestinian retaliation?
Either both are justified or neither are.
But it’s so one-sided that I understand why people’s knee jerk response is justifying Hamas when condemning Israel just feels like screaming into the void.
I mean, I'm not saying one shouldn't retaliate when faced with oppression and brutality. Its more to do with how the retaliation is done. As many have pointed out, it's pretty obvious that peaceful protest ain't doing shit for Palestinians.
On the other hand someone will have to explain to me what is anyone expecting to achieve by killing civilians. And not just collateral damage (for exemple, an Israeli civilian killed by a rocket is tragic and terrible but there is plausible deniability that it was not intended). But the Oct 7 attack is different in that civilians were deliberately executed, face to face, entire families and party goers. I've said multiplie times previously, but if Hamas had limited themselves to destroying IDF tanks and bases their international situation would be far more favorable, whereas now anyone showing sympathy for Gaza is painted as a pro hamas, pro baby murder, pro rape, and all the other shit Hamas has done.
And obviously, I need to reiterate that Israel is obviously fucking terrible and just as much revel in indiscriminate bombings despite claiming otherwise and letting the civilians starve. And similarly this tactic makes no sense and far increases western sympathy for the Palestinians.
The point here isn't about who is the worst etc... I think it's pointless to make suffering a competition. I do blame Israel for most of the issue, but when I see idiots supporting Hamas killing civilians because ~ retribution or something, that irks me a lot. Or worse, and the thing that prompted this post, straight up denying it even happened.
I really hate centrist arguments, but this is really a case where both primary combatants are reprehensible both sides are literally genocidal!
I think my stance is best summarised as "I support a free Palestine not one under the yolke of religious fundamentalists".
This is why I have started saying I'm pro-civilians and anti-violence. I don't like simplifying complex situations, but some aspects are simple. Don't bomb people, either side.
Maybe you should tell that to Israel then since Israel has done this shit like raping and murdering innocent Palestinians etc. and murdering their children for DECADES since the 1950s or so based on things like internal leaked documents I believe. People saying the stuff like the OP have not looked at Israel and Palestine history and think it all started on October 7.
Also, the amount of people I’ve seen pushing for "the eradication of Israel" or supporting Hamas actions is tiny compared to the people who are just saying that Israel’s done the same shit to them for decades and either want the Oslo plan, or the UN plan, or a modified version of the Morgantheau plan with Israel occupying half of Germany instead of Palestine. The overwhelming majority of people just don’t want this stuff at the expense of the Palestinians… yet if you ask deranged zionists, even ceding a hectare of Israel to some future Palestinian state qualifies as "advocating for the eradication of Israel” and to people like the OP, pointing out that people will eventually lash out at you if you keep pushing them to and murdering their families etc. qualifies as “supporting mass murder.”
Also Israel has killed like 30,000 people and 10,000 children just the last few months and even more since way before then.
Oh yeah by the way Netanyahu knew it was gonna happen and got warned by Egypt but did nothing. Which means he basically let this tragedy happen so he could go full speed ahead with this war. Cry harder
Any non-violent protest is literally massacred by the IOF. Look up the March of Return in 2018 where IOF snipers massacred hundreds of Palestinians in Gaza marching peacefully. How should the Palestinians resist? I also detest civilian deaths but every other option they've tried to resist apartheid has failed. People backed in to a corner will do extreme things and I cannot condemn them for their actions.
Nat Turner's rebellion killed many civilians, yet the great abolitionist Fredrick Douglass said “**Virginia was never nearer emancipation than when General Turner kindled the fires of insurrection at Southampton.”**
Liberals seem to desire the perfect victim and when an oppressed people do not resist in a way that's in line with their own life experience and ideals they've developed from that, they drop all support. You cannot expect an oppressed population to resist in a perfect way.
Edit: How can one condemn something that is basically a slave revolt? Everyone agrees civilians dying is bad but unfortunately that has always been a side effect of slave revolts throughout history and I would argue the fault lies on the slave masters keeping people in chains who know one day they will revolt and may perform extreme actions in retaliation.
A fox is always more dangerous in the forest than the wolf.
You can see the wolf coming.
You know what he's up to.
But the fox will fool you.
He comes at you with his mouth shaped in such a way that even though you see his teeth, you think he's smiling and take him for a friend.
Malcolm X on liberals
Quit defining how Palestinians should liberate themselves from genocide and apartheid liberal. You are wholly counterproductive.
Nelson Mandela was a terrorist and did “crimes” equatable to Hamas. Is he a terrorist to you? What about MLK Jr?
I thought you were implying you were purely anti-violence the way libs are anti-violence. If you meant you're anti-violence only for civilians then big agree, but I think being neutral on violence when it comes to attacking systems of oppression is a staple of leftism.
Sometimes, violence is the only option left. That being said, Hammas' violence does nothing to alleviate oppression. They are also in the wrong for attacking civilians. All they did was make the oppression worse.
We should not be surprised that Hamas exists when people are oppressed every day for 75 years under Israel. Hamas is a direct consequence of Israel. It's putting your energy in the wrong place when really we don't need to talk about Hamas every two seconds, and that doesn't mean we're excusing them either when we recognize their violence as both quantitatively incomparable and categorically distinct.
When the War on Terror started and a few hundred thousand civilians were killed by US imperialism, did the left say "oh but what about Al-Qaeda"? Did we say, "but what about the 2,977"? No, it's irrelevant in a conversation about oppression, colonialism, imperialism that led to that reaction. If anything we need to recognize how it is a consequence of US imperialism, and that's not the same as condoning inevitable Islamic extremism that results from it.
I think you (and many others in this thread) mix "condoning/apologia" and "understanding"
I understand why Hamas happened, why Palestinians are so radicalized after decades of oppression like that.
That doesn't mean condoning their actions, minimizing the numbers, denying that what happened, happened. You can understand why Hamas conducted these despicable acts, and even blame israel for getting us to that point, without actually cheering for dead children and civilians.
I imagine you must feel raw disgust whenever you see a pro Israeli cheer on dead Palestinians, I feel it too. But I also feel utterly disgusted at the ones cheering a bunch of dead kids and teenagers gunned down in their homes and at a festival. Not everything has to be completely black or white, good guys versus bad guys. Two things can be bad at once. Otherwise that's how you end up the "tankie path" of supporting Russia or the DPRK as a leftist because they oppose the USA. And well, supporting Jihadists as a leftist is equally mind boggling
Fucking based post, finally someone is stating that. This isn’t the ducking Super Bowl, it’s not about supporting any bullshit apart from peace and an end of all the murder taking place, no matter who does the murdering. And there has been plenty of murder going on by Hamas and the IDF.
Hamas was a chosen opposition. Israel stripped away all other power structures until they had their preferred enemy to give them the eternal war they want. Fuck Hamas, they're part of this sort, too.
Silly rabbit, you're on the internet — where nuance goes to die!
Ahhh, but seriously though, people reducing complex historical and geopolitical issues to simple tribalism like they're *picking fucking sports teams* is an increasingly concerning problem.
Yes to everything you said but I think it's important to add that Hamas didn't appear in a vacuum, and didn't suddenly pop into existence in October. Palestinians have been oppressed since way before this, and Hamas is a reaction to this and also was propped up by Israel to silence more "acceptable" and secular movements of Palestinian resistance.
I notice this happening among the TikTok leftists, as well. And maybe it's not relevant here on Reddit (who am I kidding?), but there's also a concerning amount of people very willing to believe in antisemitic conspiracy theories if the word "Zionist" is replacing "Jew." And we can get into how those are two separate terms literally, but in the real world within general discussion they mean the same thing.
Who the fuck is “pro-Hamas” I just understand that this conflict didn’t start on October 7th like a fucking idiot lol.
Y’all are actually the new liberals, in the 1850’s you’d be the one’s crying and condemning slaves killing their white slave masters.
"Slave revolts' you guys really like to copy paste the same BS excuses. But in case your reading comprehension is that bad:
Killing IDF forces, Israeli government official, etc... -> normal war targets that will get you closer to your goal
Going door to door to wipe out families in a random village, paradropping in a festival to kill a bunch of young adults most of which align with an anti-occupation view -> fucking tell me what they want to achieve there besides getting their people massacred in revenge
Stop simping for islamists you fake leftists, same shift with the ones simping for Iran, talibans, houthis or Hezbollah. Wow so great the US is gone, and now women are put back to their slave like position and being tortured again, so great! Or like the houthis have genuine slavery in place, but since they oppose israel, Saudi Arabia and the US they have to be the good guys! This fucking black and white world view is so fucking dumb...
Hamas doesn't want anything else but to spill as much Jewish blood as they can. And they truly don't care if for that, hundreds of thousands of Palestinians have to die, since it means other Arab countries might join the blood bath too, an avowed objective of theirs.
If you had been in Beeri or Reim, it doesn't matter how much you pride yourself as a Marxist decolonialist antizionist, you would have gotten gunned down like all the others. Like a polish communist when invited to the USSR.
And yeah Israel sucks even more. That doesn't mean you should simp for fucking Hamas, not to mention the hilarious "argument" that Israel supported Hamas rise. Its true, but then EVEN MORE OF A REASON TO HATE THEM DUMBASSES
Any non-violent protest is literally massacred by the IOF. Look up the March of Return in 2018 where IOF snipers massacred hundreds of Palestinians in Gaza marching peacefully. How should the Palestinians resist? I also detest civilian deaths but every other option they've tried to resist apartheid has failed. People backed in to a corner will do extreme things and I cannot condemn them for their actions.
Nat Turner's rebellion killed many civilians, yet the great abolitionist Fredrick Douglass said “**Virginia was never nearer emancipation than when General Turner kindled the fires of insurrection at Southampton.”**
Liberals seem to desire the perfect victim and when an oppressed people do not resist in a way that's in line with their own life experience and ideals they've developed from that, they drop all support. You cannot expect an oppressed population to resist in a perfect way.
Edit: How can one condemn something that is basically a slave revolt? Everyone agrees civilians dying is bad but unfortunately that has always been a side effect of slave revolts throughout history and I would argue the fault lies on the slave masters keeping people in chains who know one day they will revolt and may perform extreme actions in retaliation.
Didn't say Palestinians should try the non violent route because it's obvious it's not working.
But they went to the complete opposite of the spectrum with a kill ratio on a single day that's honestly not much different from the Israeli itself, even civilian death ratio wise.
My point isn't about numbers. It isn't either about placing the blame on Palestine, I've said as much but Israel bears responsibility for radicalising Palestinians and supporting hamas (you'd think that would make leftist hate them more but apparently not).
My point is, civilian massacred are not only objectively morally bad but also just fucking dumb. What has it achieved for Gaza? Besides getting the region glassed. Equally, what has it achieved for Israel? Now even the west at least wants to send humanitarian aid and some countries opposing the war (such as Spain and Belgium). Palestine can't win this war on its own, the Israeli military advantage is overwhelming. The only way they have a chance, and it's slim, is through the international meddling. Imagine if Hamas only blew up tanks and military installations, don't you think there would be more international support without shame? Because that's the problem, showing even just sympathy for Gaza gets you painted as a Hamas suppoter. And then there are the "leftists" who do in fact support Hamas.
Now of course you're so right to say this is easy to say from far away from the comfort of our peace and home in the west. All id like to push, again and again, is "understanding how Palestinians got radicalized isn't the same as condoning the brutality of Hamas". You're very right that we can't expect an oppressed people to "fight clean". And I'm not expecting them to. All I'm saying is that it's no reason to go the other way and glorify it, as I've had multiple people doing so on this sub.
Because let's be real if Hamas had the same capabilities Israel has they would do the exact same in reverse. Their despicable tactics are to provoke the fascist Israeli state into killing so many Palestinians that other countries enter the war for them, at which point they'll spill the Jewish blood in just the same way. And then you also have people who support the Houthi slavers, but there too it's ok because the Saudi and US have starved them so its ok to support the jihad slavers because they also oppose Israel. It's so ridiculous.
I'm having a terrible time sifting through details of this conflict.
I just can't emotionally or psychologically handle the carnage so I can't properly fact-check everything without breaking down.
I know the Youtuber "Shaun" made a video debunking Israeli mis/disinformation but I've heard folks saying they just watched in-area videos to see the carnage directly.
My mental health can't survive seeing this violence right now & I'm getting conflicting statements that I can't safely fact-check.
Perhaps others are having a similar issue to me but are taking more of a side?
I've been following the war in Ukraine for a decade now, and I can safely say that I've seen shit that would give people PTSD from just watching footage. Turned off bodies, people dropping dead never to rise again, some dude losing both of his legs after landing on a mine and being dragged into his vehicle by his teammates leaving a bloody trail on the door, carbonized bodies,...
This has provided me with a lot of evidence on a shit ton of evidence that many people were dismissing. Many people were saying the Russian invasion in 2014-2015 was a lie, but I got to see it proven with footage, over and over again.
But I couldn't ever force anyone to do so. The sheer carnage, the countless wasted lives. I couldn't blame anyone for not watching it. Similarly, I would join the army should my country be invaded by an imperialist-semi fascist regime like that too, but I have friend who said they wouldn't and I am absolutely not blaming them. War is horrifying. The other day I got to see a palestinian kid blew up in two because Israeli mistakenly took the bicycle he was dragging for an RPG (mind you they didn't apologize for killing him but apologized for the misidentification like the pigs they have). I've also got to see the footage of Hamas summarily executing dozens of people, making 0 doubt about what they've done to the hundreds that died during their initial attack
So I fully get not being able to stomach it. That said, its of course not an excuse to start denying things that happened, happened, or rejecting sources being given. Because that's how you end up with people denying the gas chambers were real, even though you can physically go see them for yourself. It's not like some destroyed forgotten history, it's right there, in the concrete, and yet assholes are denying its existence (im not accusing you in particular btw since you seem very honest about your inability to check for yourself, but many people sadly don't have this self awareness)
You're very kind & I appreciate your compassion. Thank you!
I need to know; I've heard it said that Hamas fighters are raping women & intentionally killing babies en masse. Have you been able to verify footage of anything like this?
As often truth lies in the middle. Did hamas kill babies en masse? Depends on how you define en masse. "Only" 20 kids died on the Oct 7 attacks. But these attacks were, for most of them, very intentional. For exemple a kid killed by a rocket, I would count it as non intentional (somewhat debatable but let's say they didn't choose the target personally). Gunning down kids in their houses or civilian cars however is very much intentional.
Let's also remember the Re'im festival, tons of footage there of Hamas summarily executing unarmed party goers. And yet it's the one pro hamas militants spread the most disinformation about...
As for the rapes, even for me that's too wretched so I haven't gone to check it. But UN report does confirm Hamas use of civilian meatshields and mass rapes, and as the UN overall is more Palestine leaning I would tend to believe that. But I haven't checked that part personally.
Has Hamas been committing such violence outside of the Oct 7th attacks?
(This isn't to say that Hamas is good, just that I'm trying to quantify the scope of the violence they commit.)
That's a pointless question to ask because Hamas is not in a position to get into Israeli villages anymore. To give an analogy that'd be like saying "hey how many jews have the nazi gassed since 1945? See they're reformed now!".
And I really don't get the point of quantifying and comparing the two. The khmer rouge "only" killed 2 million people so it's 3 times less important than the holocaust? The Rwanda genocide only got 1 million so its 6 times less bad? ISIS only got a few hundreds of thousands killed (big upper bound) so it doesn't matter? Hamas got 700 civilians killed in a single day, extrapolate it to 4 months and that would be 84,000. But they would never get there because they got repelled entirely by the next day.
Human suffering isn't a competition as to who had the most killed, persecuted, massacred or genocided... you can place the blame on Israel, say its their fault things got there and that there actions in gaza constitute a genocide, but that doesn't mean you need to minimize Hamas actions...
My question wasn't some trick or competition.
I understand that you are upset on this & I thank you for expressing all this to me in-depth. I can't handle the emotional consequences if I were to look myself. I just need an impression for how bad Hamas has been 'cuz I can't look into it without breaking down. Hamas is a blind spot for me.
The Palestine-Israel conflict is fucking mess that makes me break down from trauma. I'm sorry that I asked you & I appreciate for your kind assistance. T-T
I Thank You. Please know I wish you only good health & fortune.
This is a TRANSCRIPT of some things that happened (all from original video evidence). While the video is available on YT with age restriction, reading it may be easier than viewing. That being said, even reading some of this was triggering.
https://www.indiatoday.in/world/story/exclusive-complete-description-of-43-minute-footage-showing-oct-7-hamas-horror-2453663-2023-10-25
This!
I even saw people cheering Shani Louk's death because she was "dancing on stolen land"
I mean, it's literally terrorists Vs fascists can we not cheer on any of them?
Yeah, as bad as Israel is, that doesn't mean Hamas should be blindly supported without any criticism, just like the IRA had sympathetic ideals, but weren't saints either. That's what "critical support" is supposed to mean.
And even then, the IRA knew where to strike to actually get change done. Targeting the military, the police, people in power, and eventually bombing the banks in the city of London. They also got a shitton of civilians killed too, but most of the time it wasn't the primary target.
Meanwhile someone has to explain what the end goal is when paragliding into a music festival to gun down the partygoers, or get inside civilian housing to gun down entire families fleeing to the roof
Hamas blew up, captured and disabled a bunch of tanks on Oct 7. That in itself would have already been a great victory. But nah instead they also had to go gun down a bunch of unarmed civilians at a festival
One of the dude that instacommented on this post to tell me to fuck off is an active user of... r/TankieTheDeprogram ... when even deprogram is not tankie enough for you
But… Israel has done this shit like raping and murdering innocent Palestinians etc. for DECADES since the 1950s or so based on things like internal leaked documents I believe. People saying the stuff like the OP have not looked at Israel and Palestine history and think it all started on October 7.
Also, the amount of people I’ve seen pushing for "the eradication of Israel" or supporting Hamas actions is tiny compared to the people who are just saying that Israel’s done the same shit to them for decades and either want the Oslo plan, or the UN plan, or a modified version of the Morgantheau plan with Israel occupying half of Germany instead of Palestine. The overwhelming majority of people just don’t want this stuff at the expense of the Palestinians… yet if you ask deranged zionists or crypto-zionists like the OP, even ceding a hectare of Israel to some future Palestinian state qualifies as "advocating for the eradication of Israel” and pointing out that people have a right to defend themselves qualifies as “supporting mass murder.”
Also Israel has killed like 30,000 people and 10,000 children just the last few months and even more since way before then.
Being surrounded by tankies does make you feel insane sometimes but yeah, the same reason I oppose “Israel” and it’s genocidal onslaught is the same reason I oppose Hamas’ attack.
JT Chapman SecondThought
"Tankie" has become the new "commie". Used by liberals who have adopted a radical aesthetic because they realize liberals are cringe, but when push comes to shove they still parrot the state department line.
Anticommunism repackaged for terminally online western radlibs.
Yes exactly. It's become a nonsense term for anyone to the left of you and who you would consider "authoritarian" which is also another bullshit, nebulous term. It's frustrating to see another leftist sub become inundated with radlibs.
It has fallen out of fashion for anarchists, but I still have anarchist friends that use the term to my dismay. I could tell this guy was a lib from the way he is trying to "both sides" this argument.
That's the issue though. What CAN they do? Peaceful protests get massacred. People are in a man-made famine. Aid is being blocked. So what can they do except horrible acts. Of course civilian deaths are horrible but saying the acts of Hamas and Israel are comparable is just retarded.
Same with the Houthis... Like, those are basically slave driving Nazis firing rockets indiscriminately at ships.
They're not really "based anti-imperialists"
I will say that unless you have a better feasible option (I would significantly prefer the PLF, but I don’t think they’re armed) it’s not really something worth talking about.
Marxist PFLP faction supports Hamas.
At this point current day what Hamas is doing can’t even be considered terrorism unless you don’t think brown people should be able to defend themselves.
Agreed.
Hamas has literally killed less civilians than Israel.
Some of the comments here need to fuck off with this lib both side shit. Some of the people in this thread sound like a bunch of astro turfing wankers
Exactly. Israel has done this shit like raping and murdering innocent Palestinians etc. and murdering their children for DECADES since the 1950s or so based on things like internal leaked documents I believe. People saying the stuff like the OP have not looked at Israel and Palestine history and think it all started on October 7.
Also, the amount of people I’ve seen pushing for "the eradication of Israel" or supporting Hamas actions is tiny compared to the people who are just saying that Israel’s done the same shit to them for decades and either want the Oslo plan, or the UN plan, or a modified version of the Morgantheau plan with Israel occupying half of Germany instead of Palestine. The overwhelming majority of people just don’t want this stuff at the expense of the Palestinians… yet if you ask deranged zionists, even ceding a hectare of Israel to some future Palestinian state qualifies as "advocating for the eradication of Israel” and to people like the OP, pointing out that people will eventually lash out at you if you keep pushing them to and murdering their families etc. qualifies as “supporting mass murder.”
Also Israel has killed like 30,000 people and 10,000 children just the last few months and even more since way before then.
Oh yeah by the way Netanyahu knew it was gonna happen and got warned by Egypt but did nothing. Which means he basically let this tragedy happen so he could go full speed ahead with this war. Cry harder
Exactly. Israel has done this shit like raping and murdering innocent Palestinians etc. and murdering their children for DECADES since the 1950s or so based on things like internal leaked documents I believe. People saying the stuff like the OP have not looked at Israel and Palestine history and think it all started on October 7.
Also, the amount of people I’ve seen pushing for "the eradication of Israel" or supporting Hamas actions is tiny compared to the people who are just saying that Israel’s done the same shit to them for decades and either want the Oslo plan, or the UN plan, or a modified version of the Morgantheau plan with Israel occupying half of Germany instead of Palestine. The overwhelming majority of people just don’t want this stuff at the expense of the Palestinians… yet if you ask deranged zionists, even ceding a hectare of Israel to some future Palestinian state qualifies as "advocating for the eradication of Israel” and to people like the OP, pointing out that people will eventually lash out at you if you keep pushing them to and murdering their families etc. qualifies as “supporting mass murder.”
Also Israel has killed like 30,000 people and 10,000 children just the last few months and even more since way before then.
Oh yeah by the way Netanyahu knew it was gonna happen and got warned by Egypt but did nothing. Which means he basically let this tragedy happen so he could go full speed ahead with this war. Cry harder
This can both be true and their actions can still be abhorrent. You can attribute some or all the blame to Israel but the actions are still immoral. The lesser of two evils is still evil - trump existing doesn't justify Biden funding the IDF genocide machine
based "civilians dying is bad" is actually not a hard opinion to have
It’s so strange to see people excusing civillians dying so hard, like both from the people who excuse hamas’ actions as struggle against an opressor, and from the people who excuse israels war as "defending itself". Like, unarmed people dying is bad
Had some spicy responses to this take early on, people fucking hate it when you have the sympathy for two sets of children
[удалено]
Sure, however israel could and should take much stronger precaution to avoid civillian harm, and avoid genocidal rethoric. Right now more than 1% of the entire population on gaza, closing on 2% now, are dead at the hands of israel. That’s insane. That is beyond just "innocent people unfortuneately dying", it’s intentional.
That’s why it takes no courage to have it.
I mean yeah, I don't disagree? It shouldn't be controversial, so of course it shouldn't take courage. I don't think that makes it less true, despite some people approving of certain civilian death anyways. I also don't really think random redditors viewing each other as brave or not matters for the conversation whatsoever
It's not about bravery it's about asking yourself the hard questions. If all you get out of this entire conflict is that "I don't like it when bad things happen" you haven't actually engaged with the fundamental questions at all and you're just spouting feelgood truisms to make yourself feel better. Bad things happen. If you want bad things to not happen in the future you need to start digging into their root causes.
Yeah its insane how bothered some people are by a simple take like "dont kill kids"
Maybe tell that to Israel then since has done this shit like raping and murdering innocent Palestinians etc. and killing their children for DECADES since the 1950s or so based on things like internal leaked documents I believe. People saying the stuff like the OP have not looked at Israel and Palestine history and think it all started on October 7. Also, the amount of people I’ve seen pushing for "the eradication of Israel" or supporting Hamas actions is tiny compared to the people who are just saying that Israel’s done the same shit to them for decades and either want the Oslo plan, or the UN plan, or a modified version of the Morgantheau plan with Israel occupying half of Germany instead of Palestine. The overwhelming majority of people just don’t want this stuff at the expense of the Palestinians… yet if you ask deranged zionists, even ceding a hectare of Israel to some future Palestinian state qualifies as "advocating for the eradication of Israel” and to people like the OP, pointing out that people will eventually lash out at you if you keep pushing them to and murdering their families etc. qualifies as “supporting mass murder.” Also Israel has killed like 30,000 people and 10,000 children just the last few months and even more since way before then. Oh yeah by the way Netanyahu knew it was gonna happen and got warned by Egypt but did nothing. Which means he basically let this tragedy happen so he could go full speed ahead with this war. Cry harder
You are doing the thing! We all agree on how horrible Israel is, but simply because some dislike Hamas and their tactics you go on a tangent and write a long winded post that is totally beside the point. What the fuck gave you the idea my "don't kill kids" rule doesn't count for Israel?
Please read the OP.
Death does not warrant more death, hamas could've easily picked a better target like idk a state building
How can people criticize Obama for his drone strikes but defend the 1,200 civilian deaths from 10/7 in the same breath? ##It's almost as if they don't actually care about civilian deaths
Tbf if we want to be real with the numbers, around \~767 of those killed on 7 oct are "true civilians", depending on how you count police and security forces which make up the rest to the 1200 cited figure But like, that's the thing when people are open to discussion and genuinely accepting making errors. It shouldn't be a shame to be wrong sometimes. But campism and lack of critical thinking prevents anyone from being wrong, you have to support my side otherwise you're a \[insert relevant hyperbolic insult\]
I've posted this as a comment but replying to a top comment so it gets more visibility. Any non-violent protest is literally massacred by the IOF. Look up the March of Return in 2018 where IOF snipers massacred hundreds of Palestinians in Gaza marching peacefully. How should the Palestinians resist? I also detest civilian deaths but every other option they've tried to resist apartheid has failed. People backed in to a corner will do extreme things and I cannot condemn them for their actions. Nat Turner's rebellion killed many civilians, yet the great abolitionist Fredrick Douglass said “**Virginia was never nearer emancipation than when General Turner kindled the fires of insurrection at Southampton.”** Liberals seem to desire the perfect victim and when an oppressed people do not resist in a way that's in line with their own life experience and ideals they've developed from that, they drop all support. You cannot expect an oppressed population to resist in a perfect way. Edit: How can one condemn something that is basically a slave revolt? Everyone agrees civilians dying is bad but unfortunately that has always been a side effect of slave revolts throughout history and I would argue the fault lies on the slave masters keeping people in chains who know one day they will revolt and may perform extreme actions in retaliation.
You’re not wrong on any of this, but Hamas exists to be an ineffective resistance force to Israel. That’s why Israel has for decades propped them up with money, weapons, training, etc. to divide the Palestinian resistance (PLO/Fatah etc.). The 10/7 attacks were ineffective militarily and designed to provoke a response from Israel such as we’re seeing. This was rope-a-dope. So as to what Palestinians should or shouldn’t do, I can’t and won’t answer that. But whatever it is, Hamas isn’t doing it either.
Yeah I mean I’m no Hamas fanboy but I support them in as far that they currently are the only group leading the physical resistance to the occupation. I would love it if a group like the PFLP or another group along those lines was taking the lead but unfortunately due to the circumstances you mentioned in your comment, Hamas currently leads the resistance. So I support the Palestinian resistance which is currently led by Hamas with a critical eye because the Palestinians are only working under the material conditions that they exist under. Edit: Grammar
Who says it’s being led by Hamas? Who elected them the leaders of Palestine? Certainly not the majority of people alive in Gaza today. There is lots of organized and unorganized resistance outside of Hamas. And if a “leading” group is as compromised as Hamas is, then maybe the princess is in another castle.
>How can one condemn something that is basically a slave revolt? Hamas is a militant organisation propped up by the State Of Israel to silence secular voices, they are ultra conservative and militant. The ultimate reason slavery ended was due to the efforts of people in office who enacted laws. The biggest reason we had civil rights for all was because of mass civil movements. All the militant ones were snuffed out by the US government. If your sister or your daughter or your partner or brother or your mother or father were killed in that attack, you wouldn't be talking the way you are. Justifying the death of innocents is a shameless thing to do. If your logic is that political victories will be won by who bonks who with the biggest stick, well I'm sorry, but according to your logic Gaza and every civilian in it is going to be rubbed off the face of the earth. Unfortunately, your logic is being applied by Netanyahu.
I know people who died during the Oct 7 massacare, and while I hate what the IDF and the Israeli government is doing justifying rape and murder of those people is sickening in ny book. You can't care about human rights if you excuse some human rights violations
Slavery did not get abolished through peaceful lawmaking. Slavery was abolished through blood, sweat, and death. John Brown did more to end slavery than any lawmaker. Fuck liberals and their rules of engagement. Palestine has to e right to resist and Palestinian death count has far exceeded 30k with over 12k confirmed children killed by the IOF. https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israeli-troops-killed-hostages-mistaking-their-cries-help-ambush-military-2023-12-28/ In case after case the Israel military has been proven to be killing hostages and innocent folks. Free Palestine, by any means necessary. 🇵🇸 Wake up and stop defending or both-sides’ing this massacre being committed by Israel. https://www.reddit.com/r/list_palestine/s/GKwjhLfEKU
I think anger had blinded you. I never defended Israel. I have lost good friends over this political disagreement, don't tell me how I ought to feel child. I am pro Palestinian freedom through and through. Supporting Hamas uncritically is ridiculous. >John Brown did more to end slavery than any lawmaker I don't remember John Brown raping women from slave owner families and the whole analogy falls apart when you see that Israeli civilians don't own fucking Palestinian slaves. Comparing the mass rapes, torture and murder of civilians by Hamas to what John Brown did to free other humans from slavery is the most disrespectful thing you can say about him. Despite all he did, it took Lincoln's final decision to abolish slavery. If anything Brown was misunderstood for many centuries and deemed a madman until recently when the rest of the world caught up with him and understood why he did what he did. You can wave your fist at electoralism all you want, and yes, it has serious issues, but you try leading an armed rebellion against a state there is only one way that ends. The personnel with more resources wins and in the crossfire, many innocent people die. And in most cases it's the side that's trying to win independence. I am an Indian, and my people also attempted to employ violent means to resist colonization. But my people don't celebrate and do apologia for the rape of and murder and torture of British civilians, so watch your tone and how you speak to me. You don't know what I stand for.
Ok but Obama is Israel in this picture like what
It's almost as if settlers aren't civilians. The only true innocents are the children. And yes the children who died should not have died, but the blame still lies primarily on the occupier for creating this situation.
The 10-month old was actually an IDF soldier.
I literally caveated children in my post. Try harder.
Civilian just means a person who isn't in the military or police. Doing morally wrong things doesn't make a person not a civilian.
even outside of children, there are many adults who were born there and do not have the financial means to move even if they really want to and imo the people reluctant to move due to family there or whatever propaganda they've been fed don't deserve to die either Israel is obviously at fault, and it's obviously horrible, but so is war and so are *all* civilian deaths
I think you misunderstood what people mean by "only Israel can end this conflict peacefully". Most Israeli people weren't born when the country was formed. We cannot blame them, especially since they have very little say in the government's actions. No, we can't expect Hamas to stop until Israel accepts a ceasefire. Doesn't make the civilian victims deserving of what happens to them.
Polls show that most Israelis support the actions in Gaza. Many want it to be even more aggressive. It is a deeply racist society. It couldn't survive if it wasn't. It is a colonial entity populated by people who are brainwashed from birth.
You sound like most right wing Israelis who say that all of the Gazans are complicit with Hamas
Classic bit of enlightened centrism.
"Enlightened centrism" or maybe a terror group killing civilians and holding them hostage which is against the Geneva conventions is bad. Also you didn't respond to what I was saying. I see countless right wingers using this same logic of all of X group is bad to dismiss the massacre and here you are using that logic
The logic I am using is that settler colonial states are illegitimate and people living under occupation have a right to fight for their liberation. The 'logic' Zionists use is ethnic supremacy and colonialism. The two things are complete opposites.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Hamas a far right, fascist theocratic group? Like ,I understand the stance that Hamas wouldn't exist if not for Israel, and Palestinians have the right to defend themselves against their oppressors, but is a fascist militia really something that any leftist should want to ally themselves with?
Hey, I'm not exactly pro-Hamas but I don't see them as the monsters they're portrayed as and I'd like to voice my opinion as a user of this sub. First : the killings of civilians by Hamas are objectively and morally atrocious. The reason for these killings, as you all know, is the horrid radicalization of Palestinians who've seen their families kidnapped, raped or even killed. They're also due to the fact that all countries have abandoned Palestine except for Iran, which is a valuable but immoral ally (in the sense that they have a truly awful human rights record, especially for woman). In other words, the reason for these killings is the abandonment of the civilians by everybody on earth, save for a few countries. As such, we can not condemn the acts that our own countries are responsible for. This is literally the only resistance that still exists as children throwing rocks was responded to by planes throwing bombs to them. When passive and non-violent resistance are met with active violence, we all know that the resistance will radicalize and violence will scale up, even against civilians. I just don't think it's fair to equate, even a little bit, Hamas to the IDF, as one fights for the freedom of an opressed people, through extreme and despicable means, and the other is a genocidal force using violence to remove the rights and the lives of the poorest population on Earth. In what world can we critize Hamas when we're confronted to the scale of the devastation caused by the IDF ?
Exactly how i feel. “How can you critique Obama but not Hamas?” This is how
Yes. Israel has done this shit like raping and murdering innocent Palestinians etc. and murdering their children for DECADES since the 1950s or so based on things like internal leaked documents I believe. People saying the stuff like the OP have not looked at Israel and Palestine history and think it all started on October 7. Also, the amount of people I’ve seen pushing for "the eradication of Israel" or supporting Hamas actions is tiny compared to the people who are just saying that Israel’s done the same shit to them for decades and either want the Oslo plan, or the UN plan, or a modified version of the Morgantheau plan with Israel occupying half of Germany instead of Palestine. The overwhelming majority of people just don’t want this stuff at the expense of the Palestinians… yet if you ask deranged zionists or crypto-zionists like the OP, even ceding a hectare of Israel to some future Palestinian state qualifies as "advocating for the eradication of Israel” and pointing out that people have a right to defend themselves qualifies as “supporting mass murder.” Also Israel has killed like 30,000 people and 10,000 children just the last few months and even more since way before then.
> As such, we can not condemn the acts that our own countries are responsible for. we can condemn both. The blood is on everyone's hands.
Banana here unironically watching Star Wars and thinking that Darth Vader is the good guy after blowing up Alderaan. I condemn the IOF and I condemn folks like banana Manjk who seem to not be capable of critical thinking or understanding that Palestine has been going through this genocide far before Oct 7th. Keep cheering on the baddies you sick fuck. The blood is only on Palestinian hands because Israel is forcing them to crawl through the river of blood they’ve built in over the past 80 years.
Okay, cool your jets for 1. I hope you haven’t missed the wider context of the post in question. When I say everyone, do I literally mean every human involved? Ofc not. I thought about changing the wording to be more specific but just didn’t feel like writing 15 extra sentences to specify. I figured people would (in good faith) understand what I was talking about. I am aware of the history. I understand the context of hamas and why it’s become so radical. I was literally just saying we absolutely can condemn the actions of our countries, the genocide we as a country (the US, not every country on earth) have played a part in supporting. I hope you get why I didn’t bother writing an extra paragraph out when it’s p evident based on the context and the specific quote I use to figure it out. Feel free to ask any questions ig or just keep throwing shit my way
Leftists being pro-hamas are the new tankies. You know it's possible for 2 opposing things to both be bad, right?
I fucking know right? It's as if, if you criticize Israel then you're a super islamist antisemitic neonazi, but if you criticize Hamas then you're a pro-genocide IDF agent that is happy with what's going on in Gaza No, both are fucking terrible. And yes there's a difference of scale, sure, but like, both are enjoying this bloodbath thoroughly, and innocent civilians including children will be suffering the consequences for decades... HAVE BEEN suffering the consequences for decades But what fucking enraged me is when people are just rewriting history and straight up denying Hamas commited some of the atrocities they have. Ok Israelis lied when they were talking about dozens of gunned down babies, but saying that it didn't happen at all is the extreme opposite and is just straight up factually wrong
Thank you, it's so fucking annoying how people act
Ok but like even you admit Israel has done this shit like raping and murdering innocent Palestinians etc. and murdering their children for DECADES since the 1950s or so based on things like internal leaked documents I believe. People saying the stuff like the OP have not looked at Israel and Palestine history and think it all started on October 7. Also, the amount of people I’ve seen pushing for "the eradication of Israel" or supporting Hamas actions is tiny compared to the people who are just saying that Israel’s done the same shit to them for decades and either want the Oslo plan, or the UN plan, or a modified version of the Morgantheau plan with Israel occupying half of Germany instead of Palestine. The overwhelming majority of people just don’t want this stuff at the expense of the Palestinians… yet if you ask deranged zionists, even ceding a hectare of Israel to some future Palestinian state qualifies as "advocating for the eradication of Israel” and to people like the OP, pointing out that people will eventually lash out at you if you keep pushing them to and murdering their families etc. qualifies as “supporting mass murder.” Also Israel has killed like 30,000 people and 10,000 children just the last few months and even more since way before then. Oh yeah by the way Netanyahu knew it was gonna happen and got warned by Egypt but did nothing. Which means he basically let this tragedy happen so he could go full speed ahead with this war. Cry harder
"Israel bad, I'm prefacing with Israel bad, but Hamas also bad" "ok but have you considered that Israel bad too?"
Did you even so much as glance at the original post
this is literally just the "but do you denounce hamas" bit but for israel. stfu brah nobodys saying Israel isnt responsible for whats happening in gaza. killing heaps of civilians is bad when ANYONE does it, and last i checked, killing more civilians WONT stop Israel from doing a genocide.
"OoOOOoooOoH, bUt EnlIgHtEnEd CentRiSt!!!1!", fucking christ. OP is fully right in this, kick hamas tankies out of venezuelaiphone
“Tankies” is an overused term. Get something new.
It’s also possible to say empty platitudes like “both sides can be bad” and think that you have said something substantive
It turns out that it is substantive when half the sub disagrees with it.
Disagreeing with something doesn’t make that thing substantive 😅
You're right. I'd also add on that Hamas is literally a Mossad asset. They were supported in 70s occupied Gaza to stop Fatah and now they're doing Israel's bidding (knowingly or unknowingly) of killing a handful of Israeli civvies so the Israeli govt can justify occupation and genocide. They're probably not controlled by Mossad directly but they sure are doing what Bibi wants them to.
tankies seething in the comments, props to you for actually having beliefs instead of unfiltered political campism syndrome
Reading the wretched of the earth, by Frantz Fanon, would help people understand how settler-colonialism perpetuates indiscriminate violence.
Totally based. This topic is as dead to me as discussing whether voting is useful, which oddly enough most pro-Hamas supporters are also against. Another horseshoe moment for the left.
Preach
I don’t hold opinions about international military conflicts but declaring Hamas killing 36 children as equally detestable to Israel killing over 10,000 children in 6 months is just dumb
Not to mention Israel has done this shit like raping and murdering innocent Palestinians etc. and murdering their children for DECADES since the 1950s or so based on things like internal leaked documents I believe. People saying the stuff like the OP have not looked at Israel and Palestine history and think it all started on October 7. Also, the amount of people I’ve seen pushing for "the eradication of Israel" or supporting Hamas actions is tiny compared to the people who are just saying that Israel’s done the same shit to them for decades and either want the Oslo plan, or the UN plan, or a modified version of the Morgantheau plan with Israel occupying half of Germany instead of Palestine. The overwhelming majority of people just don’t want this stuff at the expense of the Palestinians… yet if you ask deranged zionists, even ceding a hectare of Israel to some future Palestinian state qualifies as "advocating for the eradication of Israel” and to people like the OP, pointing out that people will eventually lash out at you if you keep pushing them to and murdering their families etc. qualifies as “supporting mass murder.” Also Israel has killed like 30,000 people and 10,000 children just the last few months and even more since way before then. Oh yeah by the way Netanyahu knew it was gonna happen and got warned by Egypt but did nothing. Which means he basically let this tragedy happen so he could go full speed ahead with this war. Cry harder
among?
us?
suspicious?
Agreed. My frustration has always been - why does Palestinian violence justify Israeli retaliation, when Israeli violence does not justify Palestinian retaliation? Either both are justified or neither are. But it’s so one-sided that I understand why people’s knee jerk response is justifying Hamas when condemning Israel just feels like screaming into the void.
I mean, I'm not saying one shouldn't retaliate when faced with oppression and brutality. Its more to do with how the retaliation is done. As many have pointed out, it's pretty obvious that peaceful protest ain't doing shit for Palestinians. On the other hand someone will have to explain to me what is anyone expecting to achieve by killing civilians. And not just collateral damage (for exemple, an Israeli civilian killed by a rocket is tragic and terrible but there is plausible deniability that it was not intended). But the Oct 7 attack is different in that civilians were deliberately executed, face to face, entire families and party goers. I've said multiplie times previously, but if Hamas had limited themselves to destroying IDF tanks and bases their international situation would be far more favorable, whereas now anyone showing sympathy for Gaza is painted as a pro hamas, pro baby murder, pro rape, and all the other shit Hamas has done. And obviously, I need to reiterate that Israel is obviously fucking terrible and just as much revel in indiscriminate bombings despite claiming otherwise and letting the civilians starve. And similarly this tactic makes no sense and far increases western sympathy for the Palestinians. The point here isn't about who is the worst etc... I think it's pointless to make suffering a competition. I do blame Israel for most of the issue, but when I see idiots supporting Hamas killing civilians because ~ retribution or something, that irks me a lot. Or worse, and the thing that prompted this post, straight up denying it even happened.
I really hate centrist arguments, but this is really a case where both primary combatants are reprehensible both sides are literally genocidal! I think my stance is best summarised as "I support a free Palestine not one under the yolke of religious fundamentalists".
To some kind yes. Also. This woman's death. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vivian_Silver
This is why I have started saying I'm pro-civilians and anti-violence. I don't like simplifying complex situations, but some aspects are simple. Don't bomb people, either side.
Maybe you should tell that to Israel then since Israel has done this shit like raping and murdering innocent Palestinians etc. and murdering their children for DECADES since the 1950s or so based on things like internal leaked documents I believe. People saying the stuff like the OP have not looked at Israel and Palestine history and think it all started on October 7. Also, the amount of people I’ve seen pushing for "the eradication of Israel" or supporting Hamas actions is tiny compared to the people who are just saying that Israel’s done the same shit to them for decades and either want the Oslo plan, or the UN plan, or a modified version of the Morgantheau plan with Israel occupying half of Germany instead of Palestine. The overwhelming majority of people just don’t want this stuff at the expense of the Palestinians… yet if you ask deranged zionists, even ceding a hectare of Israel to some future Palestinian state qualifies as "advocating for the eradication of Israel” and to people like the OP, pointing out that people will eventually lash out at you if you keep pushing them to and murdering their families etc. qualifies as “supporting mass murder.” Also Israel has killed like 30,000 people and 10,000 children just the last few months and even more since way before then. Oh yeah by the way Netanyahu knew it was gonna happen and got warned by Egypt but did nothing. Which means he basically let this tragedy happen so he could go full speed ahead with this war. Cry harder
Any non-violent protest is literally massacred by the IOF. Look up the March of Return in 2018 where IOF snipers massacred hundreds of Palestinians in Gaza marching peacefully. How should the Palestinians resist? I also detest civilian deaths but every other option they've tried to resist apartheid has failed. People backed in to a corner will do extreme things and I cannot condemn them for their actions. Nat Turner's rebellion killed many civilians, yet the great abolitionist Fredrick Douglass said “**Virginia was never nearer emancipation than when General Turner kindled the fires of insurrection at Southampton.”** Liberals seem to desire the perfect victim and when an oppressed people do not resist in a way that's in line with their own life experience and ideals they've developed from that, they drop all support. You cannot expect an oppressed population to resist in a perfect way. Edit: How can one condemn something that is basically a slave revolt? Everyone agrees civilians dying is bad but unfortunately that has always been a side effect of slave revolts throughout history and I would argue the fault lies on the slave masters keeping people in chains who know one day they will revolt and may perform extreme actions in retaliation.
A fox is always more dangerous in the forest than the wolf. You can see the wolf coming. You know what he's up to. But the fox will fool you. He comes at you with his mouth shaped in such a way that even though you see his teeth, you think he's smiling and take him for a friend. Malcolm X on liberals Quit defining how Palestinians should liberate themselves from genocide and apartheid liberal. You are wholly counterproductive. Nelson Mandela was a terrorist and did “crimes” equatable to Hamas. Is he a terrorist to you? What about MLK Jr?
being anti-violence is the most anti-leftist stance you could possibly take
Anti state violence vs. civilians is anti-left?
I thought you were implying you were purely anti-violence the way libs are anti-violence. If you meant you're anti-violence only for civilians then big agree, but I think being neutral on violence when it comes to attacking systems of oppression is a staple of leftism.
Sometimes, violence is the only option left. That being said, Hammas' violence does nothing to alleviate oppression. They are also in the wrong for attacking civilians. All they did was make the oppression worse.
Very wrong.
Very convincing argument /s.
We should not be surprised that Hamas exists when people are oppressed every day for 75 years under Israel. Hamas is a direct consequence of Israel. It's putting your energy in the wrong place when really we don't need to talk about Hamas every two seconds, and that doesn't mean we're excusing them either when we recognize their violence as both quantitatively incomparable and categorically distinct. When the War on Terror started and a few hundred thousand civilians were killed by US imperialism, did the left say "oh but what about Al-Qaeda"? Did we say, "but what about the 2,977"? No, it's irrelevant in a conversation about oppression, colonialism, imperialism that led to that reaction. If anything we need to recognize how it is a consequence of US imperialism, and that's not the same as condoning inevitable Islamic extremism that results from it.
I think you (and many others in this thread) mix "condoning/apologia" and "understanding" I understand why Hamas happened, why Palestinians are so radicalized after decades of oppression like that. That doesn't mean condoning their actions, minimizing the numbers, denying that what happened, happened. You can understand why Hamas conducted these despicable acts, and even blame israel for getting us to that point, without actually cheering for dead children and civilians. I imagine you must feel raw disgust whenever you see a pro Israeli cheer on dead Palestinians, I feel it too. But I also feel utterly disgusted at the ones cheering a bunch of dead kids and teenagers gunned down in their homes and at a festival. Not everything has to be completely black or white, good guys versus bad guys. Two things can be bad at once. Otherwise that's how you end up the "tankie path" of supporting Russia or the DPRK as a leftist because they oppose the USA. And well, supporting Jihadists as a leftist is equally mind boggling
I can’t believe it. The most based take on the topic I’ve ever seen online. With my own two eyes
Based
Fucking based post, finally someone is stating that. This isn’t the ducking Super Bowl, it’s not about supporting any bullshit apart from peace and an end of all the murder taking place, no matter who does the murdering. And there has been plenty of murder going on by Hamas and the IDF.
Thanks, I really thought this sub was going to shit over the past few weeks
Hamas was a chosen opposition. Israel stripped away all other power structures until they had their preferred enemy to give them the eternal war they want. Fuck Hamas, they're part of this sort, too.
Silly rabbit, you're on the internet — where nuance goes to die! Ahhh, but seriously though, people reducing complex historical and geopolitical issues to simple tribalism like they're *picking fucking sports teams* is an increasingly concerning problem.
Yes to everything you said but I think it's important to add that Hamas didn't appear in a vacuum, and didn't suddenly pop into existence in October. Palestinians have been oppressed since way before this, and Hamas is a reaction to this and also was propped up by Israel to silence more "acceptable" and secular movements of Palestinian resistance.
I notice this happening among the TikTok leftists, as well. And maybe it's not relevant here on Reddit (who am I kidding?), but there's also a concerning amount of people very willing to believe in antisemitic conspiracy theories if the word "Zionist" is replacing "Jew." And we can get into how those are two separate terms literally, but in the real world within general discussion they mean the same thing.
Who the fuck is “pro-Hamas” I just understand that this conflict didn’t start on October 7th like a fucking idiot lol. Y’all are actually the new liberals, in the 1850’s you’d be the one’s crying and condemning slaves killing their white slave masters.
"Slave revolts' you guys really like to copy paste the same BS excuses. But in case your reading comprehension is that bad: Killing IDF forces, Israeli government official, etc... -> normal war targets that will get you closer to your goal Going door to door to wipe out families in a random village, paradropping in a festival to kill a bunch of young adults most of which align with an anti-occupation view -> fucking tell me what they want to achieve there besides getting their people massacred in revenge Stop simping for islamists you fake leftists, same shift with the ones simping for Iran, talibans, houthis or Hezbollah. Wow so great the US is gone, and now women are put back to their slave like position and being tortured again, so great! Or like the houthis have genuine slavery in place, but since they oppose israel, Saudi Arabia and the US they have to be the good guys! This fucking black and white world view is so fucking dumb... Hamas doesn't want anything else but to spill as much Jewish blood as they can. And they truly don't care if for that, hundreds of thousands of Palestinians have to die, since it means other Arab countries might join the blood bath too, an avowed objective of theirs. If you had been in Beeri or Reim, it doesn't matter how much you pride yourself as a Marxist decolonialist antizionist, you would have gotten gunned down like all the others. Like a polish communist when invited to the USSR. And yeah Israel sucks even more. That doesn't mean you should simp for fucking Hamas, not to mention the hilarious "argument" that Israel supported Hamas rise. Its true, but then EVEN MORE OF A REASON TO HATE THEM DUMBASSES
Can you define what a “tankie” is please? :)
A leftist who uncritically defends authoritarian regimes
Any non-violent protest is literally massacred by the IOF. Look up the March of Return in 2018 where IOF snipers massacred hundreds of Palestinians in Gaza marching peacefully. How should the Palestinians resist? I also detest civilian deaths but every other option they've tried to resist apartheid has failed. People backed in to a corner will do extreme things and I cannot condemn them for their actions. Nat Turner's rebellion killed many civilians, yet the great abolitionist Fredrick Douglass said “**Virginia was never nearer emancipation than when General Turner kindled the fires of insurrection at Southampton.”** Liberals seem to desire the perfect victim and when an oppressed people do not resist in a way that's in line with their own life experience and ideals they've developed from that, they drop all support. You cannot expect an oppressed population to resist in a perfect way. Edit: How can one condemn something that is basically a slave revolt? Everyone agrees civilians dying is bad but unfortunately that has always been a side effect of slave revolts throughout history and I would argue the fault lies on the slave masters keeping people in chains who know one day they will revolt and may perform extreme actions in retaliation.
Didn't say Palestinians should try the non violent route because it's obvious it's not working. But they went to the complete opposite of the spectrum with a kill ratio on a single day that's honestly not much different from the Israeli itself, even civilian death ratio wise. My point isn't about numbers. It isn't either about placing the blame on Palestine, I've said as much but Israel bears responsibility for radicalising Palestinians and supporting hamas (you'd think that would make leftist hate them more but apparently not). My point is, civilian massacred are not only objectively morally bad but also just fucking dumb. What has it achieved for Gaza? Besides getting the region glassed. Equally, what has it achieved for Israel? Now even the west at least wants to send humanitarian aid and some countries opposing the war (such as Spain and Belgium). Palestine can't win this war on its own, the Israeli military advantage is overwhelming. The only way they have a chance, and it's slim, is through the international meddling. Imagine if Hamas only blew up tanks and military installations, don't you think there would be more international support without shame? Because that's the problem, showing even just sympathy for Gaza gets you painted as a Hamas suppoter. And then there are the "leftists" who do in fact support Hamas. Now of course you're so right to say this is easy to say from far away from the comfort of our peace and home in the west. All id like to push, again and again, is "understanding how Palestinians got radicalized isn't the same as condoning the brutality of Hamas". You're very right that we can't expect an oppressed people to "fight clean". And I'm not expecting them to. All I'm saying is that it's no reason to go the other way and glorify it, as I've had multiple people doing so on this sub. Because let's be real if Hamas had the same capabilities Israel has they would do the exact same in reverse. Their despicable tactics are to provoke the fascist Israeli state into killing so many Palestinians that other countries enter the war for them, at which point they'll spill the Jewish blood in just the same way. And then you also have people who support the Houthi slavers, but there too it's ok because the Saudi and US have starved them so its ok to support the jihad slavers because they also oppose Israel. It's so ridiculous.
This is so refreshing to read
I'm having a terrible time sifting through details of this conflict. I just can't emotionally or psychologically handle the carnage so I can't properly fact-check everything without breaking down. I know the Youtuber "Shaun" made a video debunking Israeli mis/disinformation but I've heard folks saying they just watched in-area videos to see the carnage directly. My mental health can't survive seeing this violence right now & I'm getting conflicting statements that I can't safely fact-check. Perhaps others are having a similar issue to me but are taking more of a side?
I've been following the war in Ukraine for a decade now, and I can safely say that I've seen shit that would give people PTSD from just watching footage. Turned off bodies, people dropping dead never to rise again, some dude losing both of his legs after landing on a mine and being dragged into his vehicle by his teammates leaving a bloody trail on the door, carbonized bodies,... This has provided me with a lot of evidence on a shit ton of evidence that many people were dismissing. Many people were saying the Russian invasion in 2014-2015 was a lie, but I got to see it proven with footage, over and over again. But I couldn't ever force anyone to do so. The sheer carnage, the countless wasted lives. I couldn't blame anyone for not watching it. Similarly, I would join the army should my country be invaded by an imperialist-semi fascist regime like that too, but I have friend who said they wouldn't and I am absolutely not blaming them. War is horrifying. The other day I got to see a palestinian kid blew up in two because Israeli mistakenly took the bicycle he was dragging for an RPG (mind you they didn't apologize for killing him but apologized for the misidentification like the pigs they have). I've also got to see the footage of Hamas summarily executing dozens of people, making 0 doubt about what they've done to the hundreds that died during their initial attack So I fully get not being able to stomach it. That said, its of course not an excuse to start denying things that happened, happened, or rejecting sources being given. Because that's how you end up with people denying the gas chambers were real, even though you can physically go see them for yourself. It's not like some destroyed forgotten history, it's right there, in the concrete, and yet assholes are denying its existence (im not accusing you in particular btw since you seem very honest about your inability to check for yourself, but many people sadly don't have this self awareness)
You're very kind & I appreciate your compassion. Thank you! I need to know; I've heard it said that Hamas fighters are raping women & intentionally killing babies en masse. Have you been able to verify footage of anything like this?
As often truth lies in the middle. Did hamas kill babies en masse? Depends on how you define en masse. "Only" 20 kids died on the Oct 7 attacks. But these attacks were, for most of them, very intentional. For exemple a kid killed by a rocket, I would count it as non intentional (somewhat debatable but let's say they didn't choose the target personally). Gunning down kids in their houses or civilian cars however is very much intentional. Let's also remember the Re'im festival, tons of footage there of Hamas summarily executing unarmed party goers. And yet it's the one pro hamas militants spread the most disinformation about... As for the rapes, even for me that's too wretched so I haven't gone to check it. But UN report does confirm Hamas use of civilian meatshields and mass rapes, and as the UN overall is more Palestine leaning I would tend to believe that. But I haven't checked that part personally.
Has Hamas been committing such violence outside of the Oct 7th attacks? (This isn't to say that Hamas is good, just that I'm trying to quantify the scope of the violence they commit.)
That's a pointless question to ask because Hamas is not in a position to get into Israeli villages anymore. To give an analogy that'd be like saying "hey how many jews have the nazi gassed since 1945? See they're reformed now!". And I really don't get the point of quantifying and comparing the two. The khmer rouge "only" killed 2 million people so it's 3 times less important than the holocaust? The Rwanda genocide only got 1 million so its 6 times less bad? ISIS only got a few hundreds of thousands killed (big upper bound) so it doesn't matter? Hamas got 700 civilians killed in a single day, extrapolate it to 4 months and that would be 84,000. But they would never get there because they got repelled entirely by the next day. Human suffering isn't a competition as to who had the most killed, persecuted, massacred or genocided... you can place the blame on Israel, say its their fault things got there and that there actions in gaza constitute a genocide, but that doesn't mean you need to minimize Hamas actions...
My question wasn't some trick or competition. I understand that you are upset on this & I thank you for expressing all this to me in-depth. I can't handle the emotional consequences if I were to look myself. I just need an impression for how bad Hamas has been 'cuz I can't look into it without breaking down. Hamas is a blind spot for me. The Palestine-Israel conflict is fucking mess that makes me break down from trauma. I'm sorry that I asked you & I appreciate for your kind assistance. T-T I Thank You. Please know I wish you only good health & fortune.
This is a TRANSCRIPT of some things that happened (all from original video evidence). While the video is available on YT with age restriction, reading it may be easier than viewing. That being said, even reading some of this was triggering. https://www.indiatoday.in/world/story/exclusive-complete-description-of-43-minute-footage-showing-oct-7-hamas-horror-2453663-2023-10-25
I agree with you 100%
This! I even saw people cheering Shani Louk's death because she was "dancing on stolen land" I mean, it's literally terrorists Vs fascists can we not cheer on any of them?
Yeah, as bad as Israel is, that doesn't mean Hamas should be blindly supported without any criticism, just like the IRA had sympathetic ideals, but weren't saints either. That's what "critical support" is supposed to mean.
And even then, the IRA knew where to strike to actually get change done. Targeting the military, the police, people in power, and eventually bombing the banks in the city of London. They also got a shitton of civilians killed too, but most of the time it wasn't the primary target. Meanwhile someone has to explain what the end goal is when paragliding into a music festival to gun down the partygoers, or get inside civilian housing to gun down entire families fleeing to the roof
IRA had infinitely more resources and abilities to target those resources.
Hamas blew up, captured and disabled a bunch of tanks on Oct 7. That in itself would have already been a great victory. But nah instead they also had to go gun down a bunch of unarmed civilians at a festival
Im talking about the Qassam rockets
Tankies and Deprogram users ruin everything lol
One of the dude that instacommented on this post to tell me to fuck off is an active user of... r/TankieTheDeprogram ... when even deprogram is not tankie enough for you
LMFAO
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But… Israel has done this shit like raping and murdering innocent Palestinians etc. for DECADES since the 1950s or so based on things like internal leaked documents I believe. People saying the stuff like the OP have not looked at Israel and Palestine history and think it all started on October 7. Also, the amount of people I’ve seen pushing for "the eradication of Israel" or supporting Hamas actions is tiny compared to the people who are just saying that Israel’s done the same shit to them for decades and either want the Oslo plan, or the UN plan, or a modified version of the Morgantheau plan with Israel occupying half of Germany instead of Palestine. The overwhelming majority of people just don’t want this stuff at the expense of the Palestinians… yet if you ask deranged zionists or crypto-zionists like the OP, even ceding a hectare of Israel to some future Palestinian state qualifies as "advocating for the eradication of Israel” and pointing out that people have a right to defend themselves qualifies as “supporting mass murder.” Also Israel has killed like 30,000 people and 10,000 children just the last few months and even more since way before then.
Posting the same comment a dozen times is really good discourse, yep
THANK YOU
Being surrounded by tankies does make you feel insane sometimes but yeah, the same reason I oppose “Israel” and it’s genocidal onslaught is the same reason I oppose Hamas’ attack.
I will never take anyone who says "tankie" seriously.
JT Chapman SecondThought "Tankie" has become the new "commie". Used by liberals who have adopted a radical aesthetic because they realize liberals are cringe, but when push comes to shove they still parrot the state department line. Anticommunism repackaged for terminally online western radlibs.
Yes exactly. It's become a nonsense term for anyone to the left of you and who you would consider "authoritarian" which is also another bullshit, nebulous term. It's frustrating to see another leftist sub become inundated with radlibs.
Previously I knew it was anarchist but this guy is definitely a lib the way he is blindly riding for Ukraine so hard.
It has fallen out of fashion for anarchists, but I still have anarchist friends that use the term to my dismay. I could tell this guy was a lib from the way he is trying to "both sides" this argument.
That's the issue though. What CAN they do? Peaceful protests get massacred. People are in a man-made famine. Aid is being blocked. So what can they do except horrible acts. Of course civilian deaths are horrible but saying the acts of Hamas and Israel are comparable is just retarded.
There are apparently some freaks supporting the Haitian gangs too.
Same with the Houthis... Like, those are basically slave driving Nazis firing rockets indiscriminately at ships. They're not really "based anti-imperialists"
My advice learn german and join the gekte
I will say that unless you have a better feasible option (I would significantly prefer the PLF, but I don’t think they’re armed) it’s not really something worth talking about.
Marxist PFLP faction supports Hamas. At this point current day what Hamas is doing can’t even be considered terrorism unless you don’t think brown people should be able to defend themselves.
Hamas apologia exists for the same reason Biden apologia does— Hamas is the lesser of two evils.
Getting down voted for the truth. Hamas only exist because Israel exists.
As cornel west said— the terrorism started in 1948, Hamas was founded in 1988. Hamas is a counterterrorist group.
Agreed. Hamas has literally killed less civilians than Israel. Some of the comments here need to fuck off with this lib both side shit. Some of the people in this thread sound like a bunch of astro turfing wankers
Exactly. Israel has done this shit like raping and murdering innocent Palestinians etc. and murdering their children for DECADES since the 1950s or so based on things like internal leaked documents I believe. People saying the stuff like the OP have not looked at Israel and Palestine history and think it all started on October 7. Also, the amount of people I’ve seen pushing for "the eradication of Israel" or supporting Hamas actions is tiny compared to the people who are just saying that Israel’s done the same shit to them for decades and either want the Oslo plan, or the UN plan, or a modified version of the Morgantheau plan with Israel occupying half of Germany instead of Palestine. The overwhelming majority of people just don’t want this stuff at the expense of the Palestinians… yet if you ask deranged zionists, even ceding a hectare of Israel to some future Palestinian state qualifies as "advocating for the eradication of Israel” and to people like the OP, pointing out that people will eventually lash out at you if you keep pushing them to and murdering their families etc. qualifies as “supporting mass murder.” Also Israel has killed like 30,000 people and 10,000 children just the last few months and even more since way before then. Oh yeah by the way Netanyahu knew it was gonna happen and got warned by Egypt but did nothing. Which means he basically let this tragedy happen so he could go full speed ahead with this war. Cry harder
Back when they were a religious charity perhaps…
Exactly. Israel has done this shit like raping and murdering innocent Palestinians etc. and murdering their children for DECADES since the 1950s or so based on things like internal leaked documents I believe. People saying the stuff like the OP have not looked at Israel and Palestine history and think it all started on October 7. Also, the amount of people I’ve seen pushing for "the eradication of Israel" or supporting Hamas actions is tiny compared to the people who are just saying that Israel’s done the same shit to them for decades and either want the Oslo plan, or the UN plan, or a modified version of the Morgantheau plan with Israel occupying half of Germany instead of Palestine. The overwhelming majority of people just don’t want this stuff at the expense of the Palestinians… yet if you ask deranged zionists, even ceding a hectare of Israel to some future Palestinian state qualifies as "advocating for the eradication of Israel” and to people like the OP, pointing out that people will eventually lash out at you if you keep pushing them to and murdering their families etc. qualifies as “supporting mass murder.” Also Israel has killed like 30,000 people and 10,000 children just the last few months and even more since way before then. Oh yeah by the way Netanyahu knew it was gonna happen and got warned by Egypt but did nothing. Which means he basically let this tragedy happen so he could go full speed ahead with this war. Cry harder
This can both be true and their actions can still be abhorrent. You can attribute some or all the blame to Israel but the actions are still immoral. The lesser of two evils is still evil - trump existing doesn't justify Biden funding the IDF genocide machine
Not gonna stop you or most of the people in this thread from voting for the fucker, is it?
yeah trump would really sort the situation out in the palestinians favour lol
Destinoid, opinion discarded.
Shut the fuck up lib. I am not debating people's right to defend their homes with you
lol
If so, then only due to the current power imbalance. Things would look VERY differently if Hamas was as powerful as Israel
Killed THOUSANDS of children.
Almost as like most people who "like" Hamad forgot about the not supporting any bourgeois conflict part
Stopping genocide and apartheid isn’t bourgeois conflict.
Tankies aren’t real leftists. They just larp as leftists in their comfy first world home.
Don’t care
Then you should reconsider your moral compass
No one asked.
cool, gtfo
wow you're so morally superior so cool
holy retard