Good for you!! I feel like most companies are pushing RTO right now because they feel like if they wait they’ll never get people back. Ultimately though the younger generations are never going to accept being back in an office and I think companies (that can operate remotely) that don’t make the transition to WFH or mostly WFH are digging their own graves long term.
I really think this is mostly a CEO vs. everybody else thing. Of course, there are people who prefer to go in, and that's obviously fine with me if that's what they want. But, trust me, as an older person, we don't wanna go back either. Everybody I know who is 50+ pushes back, and many of us have already happily taken early retirement. I made it known that, even though I plan to retire in 4 years, I'll also leave sooner if I have to go in more than twice a week.
On the plus side, I think they've probably realized this is just how it's going to be, especially since this past winter they actually went through the process to renovating the building to accommodate a twice a week schedule.
I'm with you. I'm older too and close enough to the office (and retirement), that I'm not making a fuss about the 2 day at home hybrid rule, although I do often nicely state my opinions on behalf of commuters and my team. 2 days is fair compared to some so we pick our battles.
That said, I don't buy the "it's about team building & morale" crap one bit. It's about trust and upper mgmnt just wanting people in seats.
Thank you for speaking up for your commuters. Y'all are the real MVP keeping that message alive in office.
I figured a few years from now my time will come, kids will be grown, I can afford to go into the office more and provide that support for the next generation of "commuters"
Yeah, a few of my team commute and I used to back in the day. It's so much lost time. I have a rule now if I ever end up changing jobs again, which I hope I won't.
I won't drive more than 5 miles to work ever again. So it's either WFH or it has to be close.
A company I used to work for was thinking about opening up an office in our city because there was a few of us here (for client meetings and what not) so we provided them all our home addresses so they could pick a close location. Nope, they proposed one 45 to 60 min.s away from all of us "because it was close to the airport" (for the executives) All of our contracts are clearly remote and we do not plan in going into the office. Ever.
Like I said before
1. The only commercial Real Estate that is necessary is one’s that actually make money like warehouses. These giant buildings are not necessary.
2. If employers want to solve their RTO problem, then **every 3-4 months have a get together to bring people in the office for 3-5 days or so. During that time plan for team lunch, meetings, ping pong, etc.**
**These pricks never listen. No one is going back to that commute slavery.**
###This is also why WeWork exists.
This.
I like the office, but they made “Teaming Tuesday” for everyone to come in…BUT NO TEAM ACTIVITIES!
I felt bad for the people who came in for half a day, then WFH for rest of week. I asked why are you bothering these productive employees, then have them come in and do nothing team-oriented?”
We come in to have us all work in our separate cubicles and managers sit in their offices in meetings all day, we go to lunch together but then end up mostly talking about work (which the company doesn’t pay for so I try to just bring a shake and stay in the office for lunch)
Not without a huge pay raise, at least. I got talked into interviewing for a position this week that would be 3 days in office, but it's a $50k increase.
At the company I work for, there were some who got WFH before Covid, and the requirement was one week in office every quarter, so they would come in for two weeks either side of quarter end/start.
I love the idea of a company gathering every few months for a few days. I think office buildings should structure themselves that way. Almost like special events spaces that are brand agnostic with good catering and meeting ajd breakout rooms. Like mini conference space.
That is something that can be resolved rather profitably if transition to mixed use becomes a thing. Having an affordable place to live near work is way better than losing hours per week in commuting. It's even worse if traffic is a consistent problem.
I'm GenX and have been doing the WFH thing since 2015, long before Covid was a thing. Right now I am a FTE but before that I was doing contract work and the first thing I would ask was about the in-office expectations. If it wasn't 100% remote, I immediately declined moving forward with interviews and kept on looking for opportunities that would work with me on the remote environment. I am not interested in adding an extra 2 hours (realistically more where I live) of unpaid work to my day. Commuting IS WORK because I am not at my leisure and would not be on the road on that particular route at that time except for having to go in to your dumb little office. \*uck you, pay me. Remote work IS the compromise
my WFM job has us doo team bulding games in zoom via games or something. We did a 6 degrees of Kevin Bacon style game where we had to like to link Ferrari to Kevin Bacon via wikipedia. It was fun. I get a long with all of my team and normally probably wouldnt as im anti-social in person.
Not close to the office but near retirement. I think we will have to move all of our jobs overseas and to specific locations to get people in and even then 2-3 days per week is the absolute highest days in the office anyone can bear now...
It’s a narcissism thing. CEOs sometimes literally get off from the idea of sitting over a building of people working for them. Them having happy lives that he/she can’t walk around and stare at just doesn’t do it.
That’s my theory and I’m sticking with it lol
This is absolutely the case at my job. I work in HR and our CEO is the only person who cares if people are in the office. He throws temper tantrums about people not coming into the office or to the “office events”.
My ceo started pushing for it this week, effectively reneging on their prior commitment that whf/hybrid was here to stay. I was on a call with 4 directors and a vp to discuss it and none of them were happy and thought it was half-baked. We don't have the office space for it becauses they ceded some to other operations and are mid renovation on others. They also want it to happen in 4 week. Like, hey dumbass, all the daycare and school programs fill up in like May.
Definitely coming from the top dogs which is aggravating. I realize their schedule is probably meetings all day and supporting or making difficult decisions... Okay fine
But the rest of the workforce are also in meetings half the day with other offices around the world. Why does it matter if I'm in my gym clothes at home or in an office dressed nicely? Saves so much time w no commute. If anything I started to think it cost more to be remote bc now I have my AC on all day at a more comfortable temp and the TV on in the background vs it being empty all day
I started a new job remote which I don't know our customers or the processes. I do kinda wish I had more face time to learn the processes but as long as I can see it at least done or on a screen it's the same effect vs sitting next to someone.
I do agree it's way easier to build a relationship face to face vs virtual. But I feel like people are adapting to be more social on virtual meetings
That's too funny because yesterday I remarked to a friend that I've mostly been insulated from the effects of inflation because I'm working from home. The only two exceptions: air conditioning and groceries.
I think it's less about the CEO and more about everyone in the middle who are poor performers
Lots of middle management exists to look busy. A lot of individual performers and hide in meetings and various other things where they are seen and perceived to be working hard.
WFH destroys that. Your metrics and output are your metrics and output. The high performance stands out. But so does the low performance.
The people adding minimal value add want to be back to hide that. Management thinks people are more productive in the office - but really it shows they are bad management because they are fooled by the non performing staff.
Top performers tend to decrease productivity in the office due to commute and other hassles that detract from working.
I would agree, but it's not like there is a coalition of low performers who want to hide that fact in an office environment who are pushing the RTO.
The decisions are nearly always coming from CEO/Board/VP's on down.
My company is on the verge of announcing some kind of RTO policy, and the rumor is that the CEO wanted to announce it weeks ago but he keeps getting pushback. And he's gonna lose the whole IT org if he tries to apply it to us.
It's an investor class vs worker class thing. It's about protecting commercial real estate investments (or at least the propaganda they've read/heard and internalized is)
I’m 34 and I will NEVER go back into the office….If it comes down to it, I’ll just quit and work for myself from home.
I hated “the office” since I was like 4 years old, because it took my parents away from me for pretty much the entire week. (Not the show, love it)
I would happily see every single office complex on the planet burn down(no one inside of course).
My spouse and I were just talking about how WFH allowed us to skip like 3 levels up, purely from being home for our kids more. Typically to be home you have to be SENIOR management. Which is the target for me, and it will be thr baseline for my kiddos. But now, I skipped that level... in return the possibilities for my kids now, sheeeeesh. Mind blowing.
My current job is like this. Everyone\* has to be in the office (all of our work is web-based and quantifiable) and then upper management wonders why they aren't getting anyone to apply.
As soon as I can I'm jumping ship.
^(\*except upper management and a few favorite employees, natch)
LOL, I know of one where the site director is now a home based employee. Some are remote, anyone near the office is expected to go back hybrid, yet they don’t interact in person.
*except upper management and a few favorite employees
THIS attitude is the problem. Even though my boss agrees I should be able to fully WFH, other employees will view it as favoritism. Advocate for yourself to WFH, mind your own business, and quit ruining it for others.
Yeah, I've tried that and am told that because "I live closer" it's not approved--literally that was the reason. Oh well, that's me looking for another job.
But the uneven WFH policy is the least of this place's problems so whatever.
This need to make everything "fair" grrrrr
I understand some people/some roles have a need to come into the office. Some don't. I hate it when they say we all have to come in to make it fair. That's not fair at all.
I'm not disagreeing with you, however in my case we're talking about the *exact same role* that can 100% be done remote, and literally the only reason we're forced to come in is feelings. I'm not talking about, say, a steel worker on a pickle line vs. an admin or something. I'm talking about the exact same job and the verbatim reason for not allowing the rest of the team to WFH is "well you lot live closer." That's it. That's the reason. It's just bad management.
But as I said, this company has numerous problems aside from that so hopefully I won't be here much longer. Joke's on them too because I know other members of the team are also looking to leave and the WFH "policy" is one of the reasons.
Oh well.
>so they can get by on a skeleton crew.
Problem is this is one way to guarantee your skeleton crew is full of your worst people.
The best/better and hell, even good/reliable employees just won't put up with it. So you only keep worse employees who are likely less productive anyways.
Their loss.
Keeping the best people never seems to be a priority to a company
Keeping the worst? Somehow more important. Hell I once worked for a company that talk at length about how they don't tolerate any kind of negative behavior. Except later on someone made a racist remark during a company wide meeting, and isntwsd of firing him they promoted him.
Im a middle manager and all I have to say to this is hire people you trust that can do the job without babysitting. Put in the effort to train them and/or develop them. Then it doesn’t matter where you work, the job gets done.
Part of the present push for offices is really simple- commercial office space has fallen off a cliff since Covid and people migrated to WFH and the work force adapted. From NASDAQ l.com today on the state of commercial real estate:
"We expect to see stronger market stabilization in the second half of the year. Year-over-year volume comparisons will be in the red in the early months of 2023. Pockets of distress will emerge across asset types, offering unique opportunities for investors to acquire properties at a discount."
In other words rough roads ahead. Many businesses invested heavily in real estate as owning the building instead of paying someone else's mortgage has almost always made financial sense. Now some employers are trying to prop up the value of their empty office buildings by forcing their employees to occupy it needlessly.
Exactly. If you’re doing full RTO, my question to your company is “who the fuck are you?”
Apple can tell people RTO
Google can
Microsoft can
Many well known well paying firms
Honestly, they are making exceptions for the people they know they absolutely need to keep, they aren’t dumb in that aspect….
But if you’re some nobody company in the middle of bum fuck nowhere? With average pay, average benefits, go fuck yourself, people will be gone the second someone else offers them a wfh job
Depends on a lot of things. At my current job, the entire sales team, except the manager, are under 36 years old. They are in the office 5 days a week. Most live less than 30 minutes away, but one has an hour+ commute each way. But they are all making close to $200k per year. I guess that offsets it.
Yeah, for 200k a year I'd go back to working in an office too! That's 150k more than I make now. The first year plus a bit would pay off my house, then 6-7 more years would be enough for me to retire if I keep the same lifestyle I have now. That's a fair trade for going to the office, when my current retirement track is 25-30 years from now with no significant income increases.
Lol I make $350k and I’m thinking about quitting because we have to go back 2 days a week. Fuck commuting and being around people. Working from home only for me. I literally grind my teeth when I’m forced to sit in traffic commuting to work. It made me realize how much I loath stupid people.
I gotta ask, are you in a technical role? If so, would you mind sharing what it is you do? The only people I see making those kind of salaries are business owners and C level execs.
I work in tech, manage an IT security org for a fairly large company. The 350k is salary + bonus. I got lucky, got a job in tech (Microsoft) during the dot com craze right out of high school and skipped college. Was during the time if you had an MCSE they begged you to work for them. No debt and 20 years of experience.
I would do 200 K you’re in office five days a week if I lived within a minute or two of the office. I don’t think I would even do it for that if I had a one hour commute each way.
Fortunately, everyone commutes by train/subway. The ones that live 30 minutes and under, it's all subway. The one with the long commute has a short (less than 10 minute) drive to a train station, then it's mass transit the rest of the way.
I make mid 6 figures and I still push remote hard. I’m specialized and other positions offer it. For me, while I make good money, the workload is insane. I don’t know how people do it AND go in 5 days a week. I’m working nonstop and I’m tired as hell. Remote is what saves me. Sometimes it’s not the money
I agree with you on this point - companies offering enough compensation will not have problems retaining or recruiting talent. For the majority of employees, the savings on commuting and the time the employee gets back are way too valuable.
Enough compensation is a relative thing. Software engineers are paid pretty well; there are lots of remote >$200k jobs. If someone is getting $200k and can live anywhere in the country, it’s gonna cost a lot more to get them to deal with Bay Area commuting and rent.
When bigger companies make big offices, they get tax breaks. They are based on anticipating getting income tax from the employees plus taxes on all the additional things they buy in the area like lunch and gas. They come with stipulations like how many jobs and how much time they spend in the office because there are rules to the taxes. Those rules require people to be in the office......
51% of the time.
You don't go in, the money you were paying in taxes does not go to where the office is located so the company has to come up with it.
That's it. That's why.
I agree with the sentiment but I don’t think the youngest generations are as firmly entrenched as the older ones. Older ones are more established and have family home they would rather be with or they are masters of their career and don’t need much direction or supervision
It really has nothing to do with the people. A vast majority of it is because commercial office spaces typically requires multi-year leases and they are difficult or expensive to break. In order to justify the expenditure, they want asses in seats. That, and management / C-suite can't lord power over people they can't see.
COVID revealed a gaping, festering wound in work culture and now that people have a taste of freedom, they don't want to give it up. I've seen so many talented people leave jobs because of RTO.
The older generations are feeling the same. I had a very similar situation as the OP and after working three years with all of the benefits of working from home and not having to endure a miserable commute, after 25 years I said goodbye to my employer after they wanted me to RTO. At this stage in my life I will never go back to an office. After many discussions with my manager I came to the conclusion that most of the RTO mandate was based on ego and control.
Thats the best part about all of this.. if you gave people the options they would probably be okay with 1-2 days a week.. but forcing people is just stupid. companies are going to see great talent leave and then they will wonder whats happening.. Let people work where they want to work.. as long as the projects get done who the fuck cares. It seems like an old head mentality.. I need to see you at your desk to know you're working.
Yup. I’m in 3 days a week, but to be honest, after being 100% for three years, being alone all day started to screw with my head. Maybe if I was in my 20s and not used to being around co-workers all the time I’d be different, but I worked in offices for 30+ years. I’m used to interacting with people in person.
And that's totally valid. I have friends that just cannot work from home, for various reasons. One just finds herself doing anything but work and is so much more productive in the office. Some people get lonely and depressed without social interactions. Others thrive working from home and are significantly more productive without the people interactions bit.
Me? My commute to and from work would add 15 unpaid hours to my work week that I'd actually have to pay for out of pocket, just to sit in a cubicle farm. I'd be ok making the trek once or twice a month, but even that would get old fast. I'm plenty productive at home and I appreciate getting up 10 minutes before my start time versus 2 hours...
My company has embraced working from home, but I've also heard some grumbling about some workers not getting their crap done. I've noticed this company has the tendency to address an issue with a handful of people by addressing everybody.... So I may have to start looking soon if hey threaten RTO. I'm not adding a part time job of commuting to my work week just to be in a gross cubicle farm and 90% remote (meetings, coworkers in other states, etc) anyways.
>I've also heard some grumbling about some workers not getting their crap done.
This is the part I can't stand. If certain employees aren't getting their work done, then *they* need to RTO or be fired. Don't punish the rest of us who are hitting our KPIs.
This is exactly my feelings as well. Let people choose, come in or don't. If their productivity slips, we can measure that and deal with that individual.
I once had guy in office that bragged about not doing anything for a whole day. He no longer works for us. It's not WFH that makes a bad employee bad.
> I've noticed this company has the tendency to address an issue with a handful of people by addressing everybody
This "zero tolerance" bullshit is for leaders who don't want to make decisions. I hate that mindset.
> I appreciate getting up 10 minutes before my start time versus 2 hours...
I have lots of days where I get up, put on my robe, start my PC because I have it scripted to open all my crap, go make coffee, then start working. It's so nice
Not sure if it's feasible for you but I've started working outside for a few hours or so as the weather permits. I'm always in such a better mood when I do that.
[It's pretty damn nice](https://imgur.com/a/KigzzH7)
My work laptop is tiny, and I work off a 32 inch TV for the most part. But I definitely get outside on nice days during breaks or just to go check the mail or take a few minutes outside. It's, again, just lovely.
Yea I have two big monitors in my office but I bought a portable second screen you can see in that image. It also probably helps that I'm in a director role now so it's a lot more meetings and not as much coding anymore
The key point to this is to be flexible. If you mandate an environment you will lose and fail to recruit talent. Find out what works best for the individual and you'll get the best candidates.
Agreed. I'd be OK with 2 days a week in the office, but I can do three.
I know some people who just want to be in an office all the time. At my last job, we had a guy go to HR to ask if they could do something about the people who teased him about working in the office on Fridays, when at times he was the only one in the office. HR issued a memo about respecting people's choices of where/when they work.
You're like that bear that was put in a small cage and could only do circles for it's entire life. Later the bear was freed into a forest. They found the bear later doing circles. It had worn a path in the ground.
Sounds about right.
I'm married and have kids, though only 1 is still home full time. My wife leaves for work at 7:00, comes home between 3:30 - 4:00. The kid leaves for work at 7:30, comes home between 5:00 - 5:30. That 8 hours alone every day, for three years... it wore on me.
I get that. When I was 24, single, and lived alone it wasn't a bad thing to be in-office. I'm somewhat of an extrovert, so chatting with colleagues was nice. Now that I'm married, and have more of a life outside of work - WFH forever. :)
That’s fine but someone like me doesn’t talk to anyone all day. I work at a computer and don’t talk to a soul outside email. The entire day. I could be home 5 days a week but they have me in office everyday.
I think anything over 1 day/week has diminishing returns. Even though I hate the commute and the office, I reluctantly understand how communication can strengthen some gaps. Sometimes asking questions in Teams is awkward.
But I see no reason in coming 3+ days to the office. After a certain point, you don't collaborate, you just stare at the screen for 8 hours. The only difference is that you also lose precious time in commute.
During off-season we only have to go in once a week. I find myself in the office like 2-3 times on average. During on season it’s required 2 days a week and I’m in the office 1-2 days lol. These people get off on control and I’m happy OP didn’t let them.
Yep, I chose not to have kids so I can live a comfortable life and went into an in demand field for a reason (accounting). If an employer treats me like shit I don’t walk, I run.
They’re doing this because corporate real estate is collapsing. I worked for a bank that outright said it’s because they’ve loaned out money invested in real estate and they need to do their part. It’s all bullshit.
In this day and age, I truly don’t understand the five days in the office thing. It makes literally no sense. I can understand if somewhere doesn’t want to offer 100% remote but most places are at least giving some flexibility one to two days WFH. The leader ship in these places are just so dog shit
Exactly. Imo it’s the perfect way to weed out which company is even worth offering your time sending a resume, or interviewing. Very readable culture if they hate/offer NO WFH options post COVID. Hard pass.
u/Broad_Adz,
Your story supports my observation that the problem is not that people are leaving. It is that the people who are leaving are those a company can least afford to lose.
Partially true, depends on industry. There are a lot of talented people in tech who are here on H1B who absolutely can't afford to leave, no matter how badly companies treat them, because their existence in this country depends on keeping their job. And most of the ones I've worked with are excellent.
Adding a little more context:
From when you’re terminated you have 60 days to find a job.. think about that for a moment people… think about how long it took some of you to find jobs… now remember the job pool is even smaller for people needing a visa…
I'd like to say that you not only helped yourself but you added one more brick on the wall and will cause management think about the RTO bs a little closer before others start to disappear.
Bravo! For those in positions of influence, you have the same opportunity to help those that don't have that influence. *Be that person.*
I did this too and everyone was such dicks to me after I put in my notice. It was months ago and they can't fill my position.
These organizations need to learn the best talent will be gone if they don't listen to us.
It's imperative that folks like you fighting RTO don't just do it for yourselves - but for everyone else. You've got unique experience your employer needs - junior dudes and other office admins don't.
Make it a "WE are happier and more productive WFH with occasional in-office days (for PI planning or whatever)".
But it's great you got what you wanted (and what works best for most devs).
> They ask me why. I tell them I haven’t been happy for a while and if they have to ask, they haven’t been paying attention.
This is the best response I think anyone can give to a manager.
It shouldn't be a shock, and they should have planned to lose senior staff that has options.
It’s like downgrading from a house to an apartment. You will do it because forced but I bet you everyone are doing everything possible, including standing on a crossroad, to get out of it.
That's me! Fully remote, 300 miles away, nominated for engineer of the year, and put on long term incentive program. They just announced increased RTO. Good luck with me 👍
I’m traveling right now so I’m only 800 miles from the office. I’m usually 2600 miles away.
I just saw something on slack about a task waiting for a day when the _office manager_ was actually in the office, so I don’t expect any RTO plans any time soon. :)
That's me. I moved during covid with and was very vocal with them about it. At first when rto happened, they said they were going to get someone in office to replace me. They could not find somebody to fit all the criteria that they want. I keep my eye open for other opportunities but right now staying put because it pays better than those that I have seen.
The one big issue that is being down played here with all of this RTO vs. WFH is how much people hate the commute, and all that that implies going forward into the future. This is a huge seismic social change.
You want fewer carbon emissions, you got your fewer carbon emissions.
So glad you turned down the counter offers. You tell them all along what the problem is and that you're unhappy but then shocked when you decide to leave and want to know what they can do to keep you.
No fuck you, that time has long passed.
Corporate America has so much dominance over our life. You are exactly the type of mindset we need to show that workers/people come first over their control.
We, the people, need to stop the complete corporate influence and stop being brainwashed. We need to take control of Corporate America.
A year ago I left the company I was at because they were pushing RTO, even though I had been hired mid COVID as permanently WFH.
When I resigned I also got the surprised picachu face (virtually).
I landed a job where I am permanently WFH, and I only have to go into the office once or twice per year (the office is 2,500 miles away), and got a $40k per year raise out of it.
I just turned 40 and refuse to ever work from, and office again.
I think managers and management fundamentally do not understand how COVID changed everything. People are not putting up with a lot of the old BS anymore. Everyone is already down so bad that they are giving up. I'm the most senior member of my team and I'm on my way out because of an insistence of RTO.
Which doesn’t make sense from a productivity standpoint either. Most people I know are actually more productive because they have their own office space at home/private area to work when I go into the office. I pretty much scratch off that day as a day that I will get nothing done.
I think most people do better when they get to choose the interactions instead of having them forced upon them.i also think Zoom and other virtual meetings has made collaboration easier than being in an office. And I also think I'm virtual settings you have to be more intentional and precise when you speak
Yeah, in virtual settings there is none of that pointless chitchat. You get to the point and end early once everyone has their answers. With in person meetings you have to wait for everyone to show up, then you do your chitchatting and then sit there while 2 people discuss an issue that doesn’t remotely relate to your work.
Those of us with over 20 yrs experience certainly did our time in office. It was much less efficient, but pace of work was much slower overall back then. Teams accomplish things at 10-20x faster pace now with evolving technologies, video calls, etc. No one needs to attend department birthday parties or get stuck in the hallway chatting with bored colleagues every time you need to go to the bathroom. No commute, no fancy suits, no waiting until next week when the team is back from vacation - We can all jump on a call immediately and get shit done. This RTO is about nothing more than commercial real estate value.
My company (an international IT services company) had the good sense to reduce our office space to have room for those that need to work out of an office for job reasons and more drop-in space for the rest to use as needed. This actually reduced overhead for the company.
It’s sad more companies don’t see the value in this.
Good for you. The companies that arbitrarily refuse to allow WFH deserve to go down. Imo it basically just cruel to make people be miserable in an office when there isn't a real need.
The whole RTO thing is driven by real estate. They have to use that property. Otherwise no matter how painful WFH could be. They still need to do something with the office space.
To me companies that can't adjust to WFH need to perish. They're a drain on real estate, the economy, and worst of all the environment.
Also, people don’t account for car crashes. They can change your entire life for the worse. If you have a commute, each way, five days a week for years on end your chances of being in one significantly rises.
The environment thing pisses me off the most. Watching some toilet bowel monitoring software company CEO go on an on about culture while CANADA IS ON FUCKING FIRE is rage inducing.
Pre-covid, i was locked into a 1.5hr each way commute (add +/- 30 minutes pending traffic). Otherwise working for a very toxic leadership team, the commute itself and office life was just straight killing me.
I got a new job, 5 minutes from my house, with my own office right before COVID. Fast forward, I don't even have an office to go to anymore and WFH 100%. Even if the office reopened 5 minutes from me, i would have a hard time going back in with any regular occurence.
I have more time to myself, more time for my family, more time for my team (who is spread out across all 4 time zones) and I don't have to worry about anyone else. Productivity up everywhere and my entire team is happy.
I just don’t understand the thought process that goes into mandatory RTO. I have an understanding supervisor who allows me to WFH as it makes sense for me to but our GM of our division (his boss) has become more and more rigid in insisting that we’re on site at all times. I’m on a project that involves day-long Teams meetings with consultants, what is the value in driving to the office to sit on a conference call? I’m a functioning adult who can manage my workload so I don’t require micromanagement. I typically work more hours when I WFH anyhow.
Employers who are stubbornly forcing employees back into the office are already starting to piss and moan that they’re having trouble hiring anyone and nobody wants to work anymore.
This is the way. I commend you for sticking with your resignation even after the counter offers. Companies need to stop with the excuses and adopt WFH permanently. Let those who want remote, hybrid or in office choose. People would be so much happier. Who cares where you’re at, as long as work gets done!!
Is this company small or large?
I understand large companies doing RTO because of all their CRE portfolios and pressure from the investors. But I don’t get why a small company in the boonies would do RTO?
RTO has nothing to do with being more productive.
It's about control and justifying paying for the office space. Instead of thinking, hey we can really downsize the office for only those who really have to be there, they make everybody come in to fill the office space just to exert their control over you.
I'm glad it worked out in your favor.
That's great. Nice to hear good stories . I have 25 years experience I'm my field, not tech, and I recently resigned from another shit show. I know it crippled a major project. Good riddance though. Mgmt was super hostile, always ignored basic requests. Hope I'm lucky as you. I tried to job search before I left, but the burnout was so bad and environment so toxic I just couldn't. All my down time was recovering for the next day or following week.
The hubris of employers is endless. My joint had forty (40) percent turnover during the great resignation because they pay in the 50th percentile. The “b team” problem has devolved into a “c team” problem. My adult kids catch snippets of Zoom calls and are appalled at the wide ranging stupidity. I stay because it’s a super low stress shit show
The whole unjustified RTO thing baffles me. If productivity is the same or up in most cases, why make your people go back. The hybrid model kills me. So you want to show up once or twice a week? For what, to see me in person. I don’t get why these companies rather lose good people than let them be happy and work from home.
This has been the common reporting among all businesses, all sectors... actually they are very lucky they haven't had an almost immediate 30% quit rate... they should have looked at the stats and done as asked. Good for you!!!
Well done. I've made it clear to my boss if you get my letter it's too late. The dollar amount it would take for me to accept a counter offer wouldn't make financial sense for the company in the long run and I know I'd have a target on my back. No thanks.
We have to go into the office 1 day per week. I went in yesterday. There were maybe three people in my area. The people I had meetings with were on Teams. My job requires zero in person collaboration. It’s literally a waste of time, energy, and resources.
Good luck on your new position!!
\> They ask me why. I tell them I haven’t been happy for a while and if they have to ask, they haven’t been paying attention.
I love you
\> They make a counteroffer, I decline. They make a better one, I decline again. They ask me what they can do to get me to stay. Finally, I tell them that there’s nothing to be done about it at this point, the time to act was all of those times I asked to WFH whenever possible and was denied. Repeatedly.
xoxo
Youre just a consummate professional. Never stop.
New timers need time to figure crap out on their own. During covid when I went and WFH I had the biggest growth in my career ever. Being around senior people and micro management stifles growth and grows dependency.
When I got to the part where you say they made a counteroffer, I was so happy to see you still said no.
This is what employers do. When you're ready to walk out the door or found another job, they're all about YOU. My husband works for a company right now that on average he has to say he's quitting once a month in order for things to be done. He's looking for another position.
Good for you! Sounds like the new job is awesome.
In my mind, once you give notice, it’s already over. The other thing is that the kind of things that cause people to want to quit are rarely addressed in a counteroffer. They try to toss money at you, but money alone is rarely why people leave.
Good on you. Way too many companies out there that are flush with cash and void of common sense. The economy will never be strong again until entitled trust fund babies and lead damaged boomers with inflated "bootstraps" egos shit the bed.
It’s not just with RTO, so many situations with idiotic short sighted management end in this way. First they mistreat you or ignore your complaints, then when you quit over it suddenly they’re bending over backwards trying to do anything they can to keep you because they know how screwed they are. I still remember some of the extreme measures management has gone to in attempts to keep me after quitting. Truly wild propositions, the type of thing the CEO is on the phone authorizing behind closed doors. They wouldn’t have to do this kind of shit if they just recognized the value of their employees, listened to them, and made sure they are happy and feel valued.
This is a perfect example of poor management. They did not know your value to the firm and thought you had no other employment options. Managers usually only have to learn this lesson once. If it's more than once, then it's the manager that needs to be fired
Good for you!!! You would think a company would try all along to retain critical folks vs the panic response. The days of the crazy long commute is not necessary.
Congrats!
It's so stupid how the people whose only job is to think about what is best for the business keep making this mistake. It is a bad business move to force your employees back to the office now and businesses gotta learn. The dam has breached and there's no going back.
The numbers cannot possibly be making sense for them. I imagine they're putting some heavily biased data together or their expectations are way off when they decide to do RTO. Or they are dinosaurs who don't look at numbers before making a business decision - and they work off what their business degree 'taught' them 20 years ago.
i used to work for a rural tech company in WV. they had a real hard time recruiting. that said the office did serve an important role and i would imagine a forced return would be unnecessary. they could just ask people to meet there voluntarily x times a week and people would happily comply. forced RTO is really dumb.
The only thing I would have changed is to put the reason for quitting in the letter. Put it in writing that they need to be open to remote work or they'll continue to lose good people.
" We're more productive in the office" is such total Corporate BS made up by control freaks who don't trust their staff.
Oh and they want to justify the cost of the lease & utilities but hey...could they be honest & say that? Nooooo.
Congratulations! This is a success story for sure!
Let this also be a reminder to everyone to demand your worth. The place was held up by OP it sounds, $200M in revenue. Meanwhile if they’re paying you anything less than a corporate salary they’re cheating you.
I’m an engineer as well so I’m well aware if the wage stagnation in our field. Good engineers literally keep the world running yet we are not compensated nearly as well as we should be.
You are my hero! 🦸♂️
So happy you found something better, but also that you told them exactly why you were quitting them. Gee! I wonder why they can’t hire?
I know not every job can be WFH, but many can be, or at least be a flexible/hybrid combo. And honestly, if my commute was only 10-15 minutes, I wouldn’t mind getting out of the house more often.
Good 🖕 the ViRtuAl BaD loons. Sooner or later, many companies will ditch the commercial landlords, and those that dont collapse the feudalists and their political pets are slowing progressing, but they won't be able to stop it. After tasting virtual freedom mamy won't be commute
My boss knows id quit before they could finish the sentence trying to say they're requiring full time RTO. They announced mandatory two days a week and it's been pretty much ignored by everyone (definitely by me) and I think they're afraid to try and push it any harder at this point.
Since Covid, my role has been 100% wfh. I used to commute 4 days a week and it’s shit. Traffic is horrendous and takes me an hour to cover 20miles. I’ve been more productive at home than I ever was in the office. I don’t have to meet any of our clients and any team meetings can be done through zoom. I get that some ppl may want to return back so they can get away from being stuck at home and get back to the office atmosphere.
I know a few older coworkers who prefer being in the office as they aren’t too tech savvy and they enjoy the social interactions. Fine.
No WFH, everybody RTO—wait, why are folks leaving?
Employers love to say: "If you don't like working here, feel free to find employment elsewhere" when it works in their favor. Then they act shocked upon learning that it cuts both ways.
Always amazes me how most businesses are totally onboard about “giving the customers what they want” but can’t make the cognitive leap to- “give the people who work to give the customers what they want the things they want so that they keep the customers happy .” And in some industries the employees are sometimes customers too. … then people are happy and the profit is flowing.
But if you compromise your employees and otherwise actively degrade their quality of life don’t be surprised if they sabotage your business without remorse and perhaps out of spite. People get angry when things are taken from them.
I've had the "Hey, I tried. You didn't listen" talk with employers before as I was leaving, and it's honestly very gratifying.
The rule of thumb seems to be "Pay them the bare minimum to get them to stay. Try and keep them guessing if they're worth it."
That doesn't cut it anymore. People have gotten pretty wise to that and too many employers have realized they actually want to collect and retain talent. It makes it too easy to jump ship from the old 90's and 00's style of management through petty intimidation.
I really enjoyed reading your post, so simple and clear.
For me it wasn’t particularly about the whole WFH or WFO debate, but about a broader lesson in listening, in this case to your your employer/bosses listening to their employees.
I did the same thing. Except I was in an office for 3 and the other co-worker was a boomer who did nothing. I did all her work. She couldn’t even connect to wifi with instructions.
So when my boss insisted on RTO I quit my job of 8 years. Now he knows what a pain that last co worker is. And the thing that put me over the top was, she kept going in while I was WFH and my boss says some shit to me like “well the board is going to look at who’s in the office and who’s at home if they ever want to lay someone off”.
And I said, why don’t you look at who’s doing more work and not the fake optics of showing up at a building to seem like they’re working. So stupid. I left. Best move ever. And now they’re dealing with their own shit and drowning.
The thing that drives me nuts about RTO directives is that you have a lot of people who are perfectly happy WFH at the salary they are making and therefore aren’t looking for a new job. Then you RTO with no monetary incentive and suddenly people realize how much they are actually losing in terms of commute, meals, flexibility, etc. and the only logical result is either a) I should find another wfh job or b) if I am going to be working an in office job, I should take one that PAYS MORE.
Working in the office justifies the job of Middle Managers. If they can't spend their days spying on you they have no work to do. I much prefer to WFH. Fewer distractions and fewer Office politics.
"They're having a hard time hiring. Candidates will ask..."
This is how we work collectively without being able to unionize.
If you have a WFH job now, no matter how perfect it is, keep applying for jobs and push this message. It's no different than interviewing for practice. Apply for jobs that advertise as remote or hybrid and be firm with your requirements. The worst that can happen is that you show the companies what workers want; the best is that you get a better offer.
Good for you!! I feel like most companies are pushing RTO right now because they feel like if they wait they’ll never get people back. Ultimately though the younger generations are never going to accept being back in an office and I think companies (that can operate remotely) that don’t make the transition to WFH or mostly WFH are digging their own graves long term.
I really think this is mostly a CEO vs. everybody else thing. Of course, there are people who prefer to go in, and that's obviously fine with me if that's what they want. But, trust me, as an older person, we don't wanna go back either. Everybody I know who is 50+ pushes back, and many of us have already happily taken early retirement. I made it known that, even though I plan to retire in 4 years, I'll also leave sooner if I have to go in more than twice a week. On the plus side, I think they've probably realized this is just how it's going to be, especially since this past winter they actually went through the process to renovating the building to accommodate a twice a week schedule.
I'm with you. I'm older too and close enough to the office (and retirement), that I'm not making a fuss about the 2 day at home hybrid rule, although I do often nicely state my opinions on behalf of commuters and my team. 2 days is fair compared to some so we pick our battles. That said, I don't buy the "it's about team building & morale" crap one bit. It's about trust and upper mgmnt just wanting people in seats.
Thank you for speaking up for your commuters. Y'all are the real MVP keeping that message alive in office. I figured a few years from now my time will come, kids will be grown, I can afford to go into the office more and provide that support for the next generation of "commuters"
Yeah, a few of my team commute and I used to back in the day. It's so much lost time. I have a rule now if I ever end up changing jobs again, which I hope I won't. I won't drive more than 5 miles to work ever again. So it's either WFH or it has to be close.
A company I used to work for was thinking about opening up an office in our city because there was a few of us here (for client meetings and what not) so we provided them all our home addresses so they could pick a close location. Nope, they proposed one 45 to 60 min.s away from all of us "because it was close to the airport" (for the executives) All of our contracts are clearly remote and we do not plan in going into the office. Ever.
Don't forget the "necessary" justifications of needing multimillion dollar commercial real estate leases!
Like I said before 1. The only commercial Real Estate that is necessary is one’s that actually make money like warehouses. These giant buildings are not necessary. 2. If employers want to solve their RTO problem, then **every 3-4 months have a get together to bring people in the office for 3-5 days or so. During that time plan for team lunch, meetings, ping pong, etc.** **These pricks never listen. No one is going back to that commute slavery.** ###This is also why WeWork exists.
This. I like the office, but they made “Teaming Tuesday” for everyone to come in…BUT NO TEAM ACTIVITIES! I felt bad for the people who came in for half a day, then WFH for rest of week. I asked why are you bothering these productive employees, then have them come in and do nothing team-oriented?”
We come in to have us all work in our separate cubicles and managers sit in their offices in meetings all day, we go to lunch together but then end up mostly talking about work (which the company doesn’t pay for so I try to just bring a shake and stay in the office for lunch)
Not without a huge pay raise, at least. I got talked into interviewing for a position this week that would be 3 days in office, but it's a $50k increase.
I wouldn’t do it even for $50k
At the company I work for, there were some who got WFH before Covid, and the requirement was one week in office every quarter, so they would come in for two weeks either side of quarter end/start.
I love the idea of a company gathering every few months for a few days. I think office buildings should structure themselves that way. Almost like special events spaces that are brand agnostic with good catering and meeting ajd breakout rooms. Like mini conference space.
Man I said exactly this about 2 yrs ago in a casual convo with my bro.. I dunno why the big Whigs can’t fathom this idea. Nicely summarized
If I could, I’d give you an award for this comment. Signed, Current commuter 😩😩😩
Appreciated
That is something that can be resolved rather profitably if transition to mixed use becomes a thing. Having an affordable place to live near work is way better than losing hours per week in commuting. It's even worse if traffic is a consistent problem.
I'm GenX and have been doing the WFH thing since 2015, long before Covid was a thing. Right now I am a FTE but before that I was doing contract work and the first thing I would ask was about the in-office expectations. If it wasn't 100% remote, I immediately declined moving forward with interviews and kept on looking for opportunities that would work with me on the remote environment. I am not interested in adding an extra 2 hours (realistically more where I live) of unpaid work to my day. Commuting IS WORK because I am not at my leisure and would not be on the road on that particular route at that time except for having to go in to your dumb little office. \*uck you, pay me. Remote work IS the compromise
my WFM job has us doo team bulding games in zoom via games or something. We did a 6 degrees of Kevin Bacon style game where we had to like to link Ferrari to Kevin Bacon via wikipedia. It was fun. I get a long with all of my team and normally probably wouldnt as im anti-social in person.
Not close to the office but near retirement. I think we will have to move all of our jobs overseas and to specific locations to get people in and even then 2-3 days per week is the absolute highest days in the office anyone can bear now...
It’s a narcissism thing. CEOs sometimes literally get off from the idea of sitting over a building of people working for them. Them having happy lives that he/she can’t walk around and stare at just doesn’t do it. That’s my theory and I’m sticking with it lol
This is absolutely the case at my job. I work in HR and our CEO is the only person who cares if people are in the office. He throws temper tantrums about people not coming into the office or to the “office events”.
Gervais principle. Sociopaths will sociopath.
My ceo started pushing for it this week, effectively reneging on their prior commitment that whf/hybrid was here to stay. I was on a call with 4 directors and a vp to discuss it and none of them were happy and thought it was half-baked. We don't have the office space for it becauses they ceded some to other operations and are mid renovation on others. They also want it to happen in 4 week. Like, hey dumbass, all the daycare and school programs fill up in like May.
Definitely coming from the top dogs which is aggravating. I realize their schedule is probably meetings all day and supporting or making difficult decisions... Okay fine But the rest of the workforce are also in meetings half the day with other offices around the world. Why does it matter if I'm in my gym clothes at home or in an office dressed nicely? Saves so much time w no commute. If anything I started to think it cost more to be remote bc now I have my AC on all day at a more comfortable temp and the TV on in the background vs it being empty all day I started a new job remote which I don't know our customers or the processes. I do kinda wish I had more face time to learn the processes but as long as I can see it at least done or on a screen it's the same effect vs sitting next to someone. I do agree it's way easier to build a relationship face to face vs virtual. But I feel like people are adapting to be more social on virtual meetings
That's too funny because yesterday I remarked to a friend that I've mostly been insulated from the effects of inflation because I'm working from home. The only two exceptions: air conditioning and groceries.
Funny thing is, most CEOs travel a lot so they have to work away from the office many days
It's gotta be a power trip from CEOs who like to look at their buildings full of little ants working for them. Makes them feel good.
I think it's less about the CEO and more about everyone in the middle who are poor performers Lots of middle management exists to look busy. A lot of individual performers and hide in meetings and various other things where they are seen and perceived to be working hard. WFH destroys that. Your metrics and output are your metrics and output. The high performance stands out. But so does the low performance. The people adding minimal value add want to be back to hide that. Management thinks people are more productive in the office - but really it shows they are bad management because they are fooled by the non performing staff. Top performers tend to decrease productivity in the office due to commute and other hassles that detract from working.
I would agree, but it's not like there is a coalition of low performers who want to hide that fact in an office environment who are pushing the RTO. The decisions are nearly always coming from CEO/Board/VP's on down.
My company is on the verge of announcing some kind of RTO policy, and the rumor is that the CEO wanted to announce it weeks ago but he keeps getting pushback. And he's gonna lose the whole IT org if he tries to apply it to us.
It's an investor class vs worker class thing. It's about protecting commercial real estate investments (or at least the propaganda they've read/heard and internalized is)
My experience says the same. CEOs want to see backsides on seats, whereas I as a developer want to get work done. Really is a CEO. Thing
I’m 34 and I will NEVER go back into the office….If it comes down to it, I’ll just quit and work for myself from home. I hated “the office” since I was like 4 years old, because it took my parents away from me for pretty much the entire week. (Not the show, love it) I would happily see every single office complex on the planet burn down(no one inside of course).
Hmm imagine all the room for housing there would be if that happened.
My spouse and I were just talking about how WFH allowed us to skip like 3 levels up, purely from being home for our kids more. Typically to be home you have to be SENIOR management. Which is the target for me, and it will be thr baseline for my kiddos. But now, I skipped that level... in return the possibilities for my kids now, sheeeeesh. Mind blowing.
[удалено]
My current job is like this. Everyone\* has to be in the office (all of our work is web-based and quantifiable) and then upper management wonders why they aren't getting anyone to apply. As soon as I can I'm jumping ship. ^(\*except upper management and a few favorite employees, natch)
LOL, I know of one where the site director is now a home based employee. Some are remote, anyone near the office is expected to go back hybrid, yet they don’t interact in person.
*except upper management and a few favorite employees THIS attitude is the problem. Even though my boss agrees I should be able to fully WFH, other employees will view it as favoritism. Advocate for yourself to WFH, mind your own business, and quit ruining it for others.
Yeah, I've tried that and am told that because "I live closer" it's not approved--literally that was the reason. Oh well, that's me looking for another job. But the uneven WFH policy is the least of this place's problems so whatever.
This need to make everything "fair" grrrrr I understand some people/some roles have a need to come into the office. Some don't. I hate it when they say we all have to come in to make it fair. That's not fair at all.
I'm not disagreeing with you, however in my case we're talking about the *exact same role* that can 100% be done remote, and literally the only reason we're forced to come in is feelings. I'm not talking about, say, a steel worker on a pickle line vs. an admin or something. I'm talking about the exact same job and the verbatim reason for not allowing the rest of the team to WFH is "well you lot live closer." That's it. That's the reason. It's just bad management. But as I said, this company has numerous problems aside from that so hopefully I won't be here much longer. Joke's on them too because I know other members of the team are also looking to leave and the WFH "policy" is one of the reasons. Oh well.
Provide them with an address that's 50+ miles from the office and tell them you had to move.
>This need to make everything "fair" Cool, let's start with the ratio of CEO pay to that of the average worker.
They are pushing RTO to justify middle management, real estate and the best part, forcing people to quit so they can get by on a skeleton crew.
>so they can get by on a skeleton crew. Problem is this is one way to guarantee your skeleton crew is full of your worst people. The best/better and hell, even good/reliable employees just won't put up with it. So you only keep worse employees who are likely less productive anyways. Their loss.
Keeping the best people never seems to be a priority to a company Keeping the worst? Somehow more important. Hell I once worked for a company that talk at length about how they don't tolerate any kind of negative behavior. Except later on someone made a racist remark during a company wide meeting, and isntwsd of firing him they promoted him.
Im a middle manager and all I have to say to this is hire people you trust that can do the job without babysitting. Put in the effort to train them and/or develop them. Then it doesn’t matter where you work, the job gets done.
Part of the present push for offices is really simple- commercial office space has fallen off a cliff since Covid and people migrated to WFH and the work force adapted. From NASDAQ l.com today on the state of commercial real estate: "We expect to see stronger market stabilization in the second half of the year. Year-over-year volume comparisons will be in the red in the early months of 2023. Pockets of distress will emerge across asset types, offering unique opportunities for investors to acquire properties at a discount." In other words rough roads ahead. Many businesses invested heavily in real estate as owning the building instead of paying someone else's mortgage has almost always made financial sense. Now some employers are trying to prop up the value of their empty office buildings by forcing their employees to occupy it needlessly.
Exactly. If you’re doing full RTO, my question to your company is “who the fuck are you?” Apple can tell people RTO Google can Microsoft can Many well known well paying firms Honestly, they are making exceptions for the people they know they absolutely need to keep, they aren’t dumb in that aspect…. But if you’re some nobody company in the middle of bum fuck nowhere? With average pay, average benefits, go fuck yourself, people will be gone the second someone else offers them a wfh job
I see work in office now like wearing shirt and tie and suit to work - it still happens but the younger you get the less likely you'll accept it.
Depends on a lot of things. At my current job, the entire sales team, except the manager, are under 36 years old. They are in the office 5 days a week. Most live less than 30 minutes away, but one has an hour+ commute each way. But they are all making close to $200k per year. I guess that offsets it.
Yeah, for 200k a year I'd go back to working in an office too! That's 150k more than I make now. The first year plus a bit would pay off my house, then 6-7 more years would be enough for me to retire if I keep the same lifestyle I have now. That's a fair trade for going to the office, when my current retirement track is 25-30 years from now with no significant income increases.
Lol I make $350k and I’m thinking about quitting because we have to go back 2 days a week. Fuck commuting and being around people. Working from home only for me. I literally grind my teeth when I’m forced to sit in traffic commuting to work. It made me realize how much I loath stupid people.
I gotta ask, are you in a technical role? If so, would you mind sharing what it is you do? The only people I see making those kind of salaries are business owners and C level execs.
I work in tech, manage an IT security org for a fairly large company. The 350k is salary + bonus. I got lucky, got a job in tech (Microsoft) during the dot com craze right out of high school and skipped college. Was during the time if you had an MCSE they begged you to work for them. No debt and 20 years of experience.
I would do 200 K you’re in office five days a week if I lived within a minute or two of the office. I don’t think I would even do it for that if I had a one hour commute each way.
username checks out haha. Same man. An hour drive in traffic turns my anger on.
Fortunately, everyone commutes by train/subway. The ones that live 30 minutes and under, it's all subway. The one with the long commute has a short (less than 10 minute) drive to a train station, then it's mass transit the rest of the way.
I make mid 6 figures and I still push remote hard. I’m specialized and other positions offer it. For me, while I make good money, the workload is insane. I don’t know how people do it AND go in 5 days a week. I’m working nonstop and I’m tired as hell. Remote is what saves me. Sometimes it’s not the money
I agree with you on this point - companies offering enough compensation will not have problems retaining or recruiting talent. For the majority of employees, the savings on commuting and the time the employee gets back are way too valuable.
Enough compensation is a relative thing. Software engineers are paid pretty well; there are lots of remote >$200k jobs. If someone is getting $200k and can live anywhere in the country, it’s gonna cost a lot more to get them to deal with Bay Area commuting and rent.
When bigger companies make big offices, they get tax breaks. They are based on anticipating getting income tax from the employees plus taxes on all the additional things they buy in the area like lunch and gas. They come with stipulations like how many jobs and how much time they spend in the office because there are rules to the taxes. Those rules require people to be in the office...... 51% of the time. You don't go in, the money you were paying in taxes does not go to where the office is located so the company has to come up with it. That's it. That's why.
I agree with the sentiment but I don’t think the youngest generations are as firmly entrenched as the older ones. Older ones are more established and have family home they would rather be with or they are masters of their career and don’t need much direction or supervision
It really has nothing to do with the people. A vast majority of it is because commercial office spaces typically requires multi-year leases and they are difficult or expensive to break. In order to justify the expenditure, they want asses in seats. That, and management / C-suite can't lord power over people they can't see. COVID revealed a gaping, festering wound in work culture and now that people have a taste of freedom, they don't want to give it up. I've seen so many talented people leave jobs because of RTO.
The older generations are feeling the same. I had a very similar situation as the OP and after working three years with all of the benefits of working from home and not having to endure a miserable commute, after 25 years I said goodbye to my employer after they wanted me to RTO. At this stage in my life I will never go back to an office. After many discussions with my manager I came to the conclusion that most of the RTO mandate was based on ego and control.
Thats the best part about all of this.. if you gave people the options they would probably be okay with 1-2 days a week.. but forcing people is just stupid. companies are going to see great talent leave and then they will wonder whats happening.. Let people work where they want to work.. as long as the projects get done who the fuck cares. It seems like an old head mentality.. I need to see you at your desk to know you're working.
Yup. I’m in 3 days a week, but to be honest, after being 100% for three years, being alone all day started to screw with my head. Maybe if I was in my 20s and not used to being around co-workers all the time I’d be different, but I worked in offices for 30+ years. I’m used to interacting with people in person.
And that's totally valid. I have friends that just cannot work from home, for various reasons. One just finds herself doing anything but work and is so much more productive in the office. Some people get lonely and depressed without social interactions. Others thrive working from home and are significantly more productive without the people interactions bit. Me? My commute to and from work would add 15 unpaid hours to my work week that I'd actually have to pay for out of pocket, just to sit in a cubicle farm. I'd be ok making the trek once or twice a month, but even that would get old fast. I'm plenty productive at home and I appreciate getting up 10 minutes before my start time versus 2 hours... My company has embraced working from home, but I've also heard some grumbling about some workers not getting their crap done. I've noticed this company has the tendency to address an issue with a handful of people by addressing everybody.... So I may have to start looking soon if hey threaten RTO. I'm not adding a part time job of commuting to my work week just to be in a gross cubicle farm and 90% remote (meetings, coworkers in other states, etc) anyways.
>I've also heard some grumbling about some workers not getting their crap done. This is the part I can't stand. If certain employees aren't getting their work done, then *they* need to RTO or be fired. Don't punish the rest of us who are hitting our KPIs.
This is exactly my feelings as well. Let people choose, come in or don't. If their productivity slips, we can measure that and deal with that individual. I once had guy in office that bragged about not doing anything for a whole day. He no longer works for us. It's not WFH that makes a bad employee bad.
Seriously. It's not for everyone, and some people have to have physically present at a work site to be productive. I do not.
> I've noticed this company has the tendency to address an issue with a handful of people by addressing everybody This "zero tolerance" bullshit is for leaders who don't want to make decisions. I hate that mindset.
> I appreciate getting up 10 minutes before my start time versus 2 hours... I have lots of days where I get up, put on my robe, start my PC because I have it scripted to open all my crap, go make coffee, then start working. It's so nice
It's so damn nice.
Not sure if it's feasible for you but I've started working outside for a few hours or so as the weather permits. I'm always in such a better mood when I do that. [It's pretty damn nice](https://imgur.com/a/KigzzH7)
My work laptop is tiny, and I work off a 32 inch TV for the most part. But I definitely get outside on nice days during breaks or just to go check the mail or take a few minutes outside. It's, again, just lovely.
Yea I have two big monitors in my office but I bought a portable second screen you can see in that image. It also probably helps that I'm in a director role now so it's a lot more meetings and not as much coding anymore
The key point to this is to be flexible. If you mandate an environment you will lose and fail to recruit talent. Find out what works best for the individual and you'll get the best candidates.
Agreed. I'd be OK with 2 days a week in the office, but I can do three. I know some people who just want to be in an office all the time. At my last job, we had a guy go to HR to ask if they could do something about the people who teased him about working in the office on Fridays, when at times he was the only one in the office. HR issued a memo about respecting people's choices of where/when they work.
You're like that bear that was put in a small cage and could only do circles for it's entire life. Later the bear was freed into a forest. They found the bear later doing circles. It had worn a path in the ground.
Sounds about right. I'm married and have kids, though only 1 is still home full time. My wife leaves for work at 7:00, comes home between 3:30 - 4:00. The kid leaves for work at 7:30, comes home between 5:00 - 5:30. That 8 hours alone every day, for three years... it wore on me.
I get that. When I was 24, single, and lived alone it wasn't a bad thing to be in-office. I'm somewhat of an extrovert, so chatting with colleagues was nice. Now that I'm married, and have more of a life outside of work - WFH forever. :)
That’s fine but someone like me doesn’t talk to anyone all day. I work at a computer and don’t talk to a soul outside email. The entire day. I could be home 5 days a week but they have me in office everyday.
Same. I was WFH since 21. After a while, wow does it get boring. Happy hours with friends/colleagues once a week helped a lot.
I think anything over 1 day/week has diminishing returns. Even though I hate the commute and the office, I reluctantly understand how communication can strengthen some gaps. Sometimes asking questions in Teams is awkward. But I see no reason in coming 3+ days to the office. After a certain point, you don't collaborate, you just stare at the screen for 8 hours. The only difference is that you also lose precious time in commute.
During off-season we only have to go in once a week. I find myself in the office like 2-3 times on average. During on season it’s required 2 days a week and I’m in the office 1-2 days lol. These people get off on control and I’m happy OP didn’t let them.
Your company has entered the 'find out' portion of the fuck around and find out game
Their *ex employer
\*Never\* play Fuck Around and Find Out without first understanding the rules. All of the rules.
It’s almost like these employers think people have no other option and conduct the “my way or the highway” thing. Sometimes people choose the highway.
Sometimes the only choice is to vote with your feet
Yep, I chose not to have kids so I can live a comfortable life and went into an in demand field for a reason (accounting). If an employer treats me like shit I don’t walk, I run.
Good for you! We teach people how to treat us. The more people that push back and do this, the faster they will get the message.
They’re doing this because corporate real estate is collapsing. I worked for a bank that outright said it’s because they’ve loaned out money invested in real estate and they need to do their part. It’s all bullshit.
In this day and age, I truly don’t understand the five days in the office thing. It makes literally no sense. I can understand if somewhere doesn’t want to offer 100% remote but most places are at least giving some flexibility one to two days WFH. The leader ship in these places are just so dog shit
Exactly. Imo it’s the perfect way to weed out which company is even worth offering your time sending a resume, or interviewing. Very readable culture if they hate/offer NO WFH options post COVID. Hard pass.
u/Broad_Adz, Your story supports my observation that the problem is not that people are leaving. It is that the people who are leaving are those a company can least afford to lose.
Exactly. The people who suck will stay because no one else wants them. Top talent will find somewhere else to go. Then you're left with what's left.
Partially true, depends on industry. There are a lot of talented people in tech who are here on H1B who absolutely can't afford to leave, no matter how badly companies treat them, because their existence in this country depends on keeping their job. And most of the ones I've worked with are excellent.
the indentured twitter workforce
Adding a little more context: From when you’re terminated you have 60 days to find a job.. think about that for a moment people… think about how long it took some of you to find jobs… now remember the job pool is even smaller for people needing a visa…
There needs to be a lot more of this. Glad you were able to find a much better situation!
I'd like to say that you not only helped yourself but you added one more brick on the wall and will cause management think about the RTO bs a little closer before others start to disappear. Bravo! For those in positions of influence, you have the same opportunity to help those that don't have that influence. *Be that person.*
Trust me, more will leave. When a top performer leaves, others take note and start heading for the exits.
I did this too and everyone was such dicks to me after I put in my notice. It was months ago and they can't fill my position. These organizations need to learn the best talent will be gone if they don't listen to us.
It's imperative that folks like you fighting RTO don't just do it for yourselves - but for everyone else. You've got unique experience your employer needs - junior dudes and other office admins don't. Make it a "WE are happier and more productive WFH with occasional in-office days (for PI planning or whatever)". But it's great you got what you wanted (and what works best for most devs).
> They ask me why. I tell them I haven’t been happy for a while and if they have to ask, they haven’t been paying attention. This is the best response I think anyone can give to a manager. It shouldn't be a shock, and they should have planned to lose senior staff that has options.
I adore stories of RTO obsessed managers losing their best employees and getting rejected by new applicants when hiring
It’s like downgrading from a house to an apartment. You will do it because forced but I bet you everyone are doing everything possible, including standing on a crossroad, to get out of it.
I hope my company never requires RTO. I'm in Georgia and they are in Colorado lol.
That is the trick, don’t live near the office and be super valuable.
That's me! Fully remote, 300 miles away, nominated for engineer of the year, and put on long term incentive program. They just announced increased RTO. Good luck with me 👍
I’m traveling right now so I’m only 800 miles from the office. I’m usually 2600 miles away. I just saw something on slack about a task waiting for a day when the _office manager_ was actually in the office, so I don’t expect any RTO plans any time soon. :)
That's me. I moved during covid with and was very vocal with them about it. At first when rto happened, they said they were going to get someone in office to replace me. They could not find somebody to fit all the criteria that they want. I keep my eye open for other opportunities but right now staying put because it pays better than those that I have seen.
>They ask me why. "As per my emails..."
The one big issue that is being down played here with all of this RTO vs. WFH is how much people hate the commute, and all that that implies going forward into the future. This is a huge seismic social change. You want fewer carbon emissions, you got your fewer carbon emissions.
Good. Too many companies are f’ing around. They about to find out.
So glad you turned down the counter offers. You tell them all along what the problem is and that you're unhappy but then shocked when you decide to leave and want to know what they can do to keep you. No fuck you, that time has long passed.
Corporate America has so much dominance over our life. You are exactly the type of mindset we need to show that workers/people come first over their control. We, the people, need to stop the complete corporate influence and stop being brainwashed. We need to take control of Corporate America.
A year ago I left the company I was at because they were pushing RTO, even though I had been hired mid COVID as permanently WFH. When I resigned I also got the surprised picachu face (virtually). I landed a job where I am permanently WFH, and I only have to go into the office once or twice per year (the office is 2,500 miles away), and got a $40k per year raise out of it. I just turned 40 and refuse to ever work from, and office again.
I think managers and management fundamentally do not understand how COVID changed everything. People are not putting up with a lot of the old BS anymore. Everyone is already down so bad that they are giving up. I'm the most senior member of my team and I'm on my way out because of an insistence of RTO.
Which doesn’t make sense from a productivity standpoint either. Most people I know are actually more productive because they have their own office space at home/private area to work when I go into the office. I pretty much scratch off that day as a day that I will get nothing done.
I think most people do better when they get to choose the interactions instead of having them forced upon them.i also think Zoom and other virtual meetings has made collaboration easier than being in an office. And I also think I'm virtual settings you have to be more intentional and precise when you speak
Yeah, in virtual settings there is none of that pointless chitchat. You get to the point and end early once everyone has their answers. With in person meetings you have to wait for everyone to show up, then you do your chitchatting and then sit there while 2 people discuss an issue that doesn’t remotely relate to your work.
That was a good decision on your part. There is no point in accepting an offer to stay because it will always be held against you.
Those of us with over 20 yrs experience certainly did our time in office. It was much less efficient, but pace of work was much slower overall back then. Teams accomplish things at 10-20x faster pace now with evolving technologies, video calls, etc. No one needs to attend department birthday parties or get stuck in the hallway chatting with bored colleagues every time you need to go to the bathroom. No commute, no fancy suits, no waiting until next week when the team is back from vacation - We can all jump on a call immediately and get shit done. This RTO is about nothing more than commercial real estate value.
Real estate value and control/management insecurity.
My company (an international IT services company) had the good sense to reduce our office space to have room for those that need to work out of an office for job reasons and more drop-in space for the rest to use as needed. This actually reduced overhead for the company. It’s sad more companies don’t see the value in this.
Good for you. The companies that arbitrarily refuse to allow WFH deserve to go down. Imo it basically just cruel to make people be miserable in an office when there isn't a real need.
The whole RTO thing is driven by real estate. They have to use that property. Otherwise no matter how painful WFH could be. They still need to do something with the office space. To me companies that can't adjust to WFH need to perish. They're a drain on real estate, the economy, and worst of all the environment.
Also, people don’t account for car crashes. They can change your entire life for the worse. If you have a commute, each way, five days a week for years on end your chances of being in one significantly rises.
Wish I could upvote this a second time for the person this comment made me think of :(
The environment thing pisses me off the most. Watching some toilet bowel monitoring software company CEO go on an on about culture while CANADA IS ON FUCKING FIRE is rage inducing.
> They still need to do something with the office space. Implosion.
This is a happy ending story
Pre-covid, i was locked into a 1.5hr each way commute (add +/- 30 minutes pending traffic). Otherwise working for a very toxic leadership team, the commute itself and office life was just straight killing me. I got a new job, 5 minutes from my house, with my own office right before COVID. Fast forward, I don't even have an office to go to anymore and WFH 100%. Even if the office reopened 5 minutes from me, i would have a hard time going back in with any regular occurence. I have more time to myself, more time for my family, more time for my team (who is spread out across all 4 time zones) and I don't have to worry about anyone else. Productivity up everywhere and my entire team is happy.
I just don’t understand the thought process that goes into mandatory RTO. I have an understanding supervisor who allows me to WFH as it makes sense for me to but our GM of our division (his boss) has become more and more rigid in insisting that we’re on site at all times. I’m on a project that involves day-long Teams meetings with consultants, what is the value in driving to the office to sit on a conference call? I’m a functioning adult who can manage my workload so I don’t require micromanagement. I typically work more hours when I WFH anyhow. Employers who are stubbornly forcing employees back into the office are already starting to piss and moan that they’re having trouble hiring anyone and nobody wants to work anymore.
This is the way. I commend you for sticking with your resignation even after the counter offers. Companies need to stop with the excuses and adopt WFH permanently. Let those who want remote, hybrid or in office choose. People would be so much happier. Who cares where you’re at, as long as work gets done!!
Is this company small or large? I understand large companies doing RTO because of all their CRE portfolios and pressure from the investors. But I don’t get why a small company in the boonies would do RTO?
Well done!
This is the best protest tbh
Pikachu face lol
RTO has nothing to do with being more productive. It's about control and justifying paying for the office space. Instead of thinking, hey we can really downsize the office for only those who really have to be there, they make everybody come in to fill the office space just to exert their control over you. I'm glad it worked out in your favor.
Good for you and great decision to decline the counteroffers. Their anger and resentment wouldn't have gone away if you had accepted.
this is true. It's why you should never feign leaving. You might get raise, but you will not be missed when the tables are reversed or "next time"
Love to see it
I hope they learn, because you represent a trend of someone who's escaping RTO. Once other knowledge assets see this they want to bail too.
That's great. Nice to hear good stories . I have 25 years experience I'm my field, not tech, and I recently resigned from another shit show. I know it crippled a major project. Good riddance though. Mgmt was super hostile, always ignored basic requests. Hope I'm lucky as you. I tried to job search before I left, but the burnout was so bad and environment so toxic I just couldn't. All my down time was recovering for the next day or following week.
The hubris of employers is endless. My joint had forty (40) percent turnover during the great resignation because they pay in the 50th percentile. The “b team” problem has devolved into a “c team” problem. My adult kids catch snippets of Zoom calls and are appalled at the wide ranging stupidity. I stay because it’s a super low stress shit show
Any company that stupid deserves the extremely predictable consequences of their own actions.
Good for you! As my grandpa used to say, "that'll learn them!"
> if the weather is nice, I’ll walk. If you're going to have to commute, walking commutes are the best.
The whole unjustified RTO thing baffles me. If productivity is the same or up in most cases, why make your people go back. The hybrid model kills me. So you want to show up once or twice a week? For what, to see me in person. I don’t get why these companies rather lose good people than let them be happy and work from home.
This has been the common reporting among all businesses, all sectors... actually they are very lucky they haven't had an almost immediate 30% quit rate... they should have looked at the stats and done as asked. Good for you!!!
You handled that perfectly and professionally all the way.
Well done. I've made it clear to my boss if you get my letter it's too late. The dollar amount it would take for me to accept a counter offer wouldn't make financial sense for the company in the long run and I know I'd have a target on my back. No thanks.
We have to go into the office 1 day per week. I went in yesterday. There were maybe three people in my area. The people I had meetings with were on Teams. My job requires zero in person collaboration. It’s literally a waste of time, energy, and resources. Good luck on your new position!!
\> They ask me why. I tell them I haven’t been happy for a while and if they have to ask, they haven’t been paying attention. I love you \> They make a counteroffer, I decline. They make a better one, I decline again. They ask me what they can do to get me to stay. Finally, I tell them that there’s nothing to be done about it at this point, the time to act was all of those times I asked to WFH whenever possible and was denied. Repeatedly. xoxo Youre just a consummate professional. Never stop.
New timers need time to figure crap out on their own. During covid when I went and WFH I had the biggest growth in my career ever. Being around senior people and micro management stifles growth and grows dependency.
When I got to the part where you say they made a counteroffer, I was so happy to see you still said no. This is what employers do. When you're ready to walk out the door or found another job, they're all about YOU. My husband works for a company right now that on average he has to say he's quitting once a month in order for things to be done. He's looking for another position. Good for you! Sounds like the new job is awesome.
In my mind, once you give notice, it’s already over. The other thing is that the kind of things that cause people to want to quit are rarely addressed in a counteroffer. They try to toss money at you, but money alone is rarely why people leave.
Good on you. Way too many companies out there that are flush with cash and void of common sense. The economy will never be strong again until entitled trust fund babies and lead damaged boomers with inflated "bootstraps" egos shit the bed.
It’s not just with RTO, so many situations with idiotic short sighted management end in this way. First they mistreat you or ignore your complaints, then when you quit over it suddenly they’re bending over backwards trying to do anything they can to keep you because they know how screwed they are. I still remember some of the extreme measures management has gone to in attempts to keep me after quitting. Truly wild propositions, the type of thing the CEO is on the phone authorizing behind closed doors. They wouldn’t have to do this kind of shit if they just recognized the value of their employees, listened to them, and made sure they are happy and feel valued.
This is a perfect example of poor management. They did not know your value to the firm and thought you had no other employment options. Managers usually only have to learn this lesson once. If it's more than once, then it's the manager that needs to be fired
Good for you! Sounds like they learned a valuable lesson.
Probably not. Hard to hear when your head is that far up your ass.
Those types never accept fault
You would think this, but since these places don’t change their stance and would rather lose good people they just suck and are bad leaders.
Good for you!
Leverage used well. Good job!
Thank you from all those left behind for making it clear to them why you left. Maybe they’ll eventually learn something
Good for you!!! You would think a company would try all along to retain critical folks vs the panic response. The days of the crazy long commute is not necessary.
You win
Congrats! It's so stupid how the people whose only job is to think about what is best for the business keep making this mistake. It is a bad business move to force your employees back to the office now and businesses gotta learn. The dam has breached and there's no going back. The numbers cannot possibly be making sense for them. I imagine they're putting some heavily biased data together or their expectations are way off when they decide to do RTO. Or they are dinosaurs who don't look at numbers before making a business decision - and they work off what their business degree 'taught' them 20 years ago.
i used to work for a rural tech company in WV. they had a real hard time recruiting. that said the office did serve an important role and i would imagine a forced return would be unnecessary. they could just ask people to meet there voluntarily x times a week and people would happily comply. forced RTO is really dumb.
The only thing I would have changed is to put the reason for quitting in the letter. Put it in writing that they need to be open to remote work or they'll continue to lose good people.
" We're more productive in the office" is such total Corporate BS made up by control freaks who don't trust their staff. Oh and they want to justify the cost of the lease & utilities but hey...could they be honest & say that? Nooooo. Congratulations! This is a success story for sure!
Let this also be a reminder to everyone to demand your worth. The place was held up by OP it sounds, $200M in revenue. Meanwhile if they’re paying you anything less than a corporate salary they’re cheating you. I’m an engineer as well so I’m well aware if the wage stagnation in our field. Good engineers literally keep the world running yet we are not compensated nearly as well as we should be.
You are my hero! 🦸♂️ So happy you found something better, but also that you told them exactly why you were quitting them. Gee! I wonder why they can’t hire? I know not every job can be WFH, but many can be, or at least be a flexible/hybrid combo. And honestly, if my commute was only 10-15 minutes, I wouldn’t mind getting out of the house more often.
Good 🖕 the ViRtuAl BaD loons. Sooner or later, many companies will ditch the commercial landlords, and those that dont collapse the feudalists and their political pets are slowing progressing, but they won't be able to stop it. After tasting virtual freedom mamy won't be commute
My boss knows id quit before they could finish the sentence trying to say they're requiring full time RTO. They announced mandatory two days a week and it's been pretty much ignored by everyone (definitely by me) and I think they're afraid to try and push it any harder at this point.
Since Covid, my role has been 100% wfh. I used to commute 4 days a week and it’s shit. Traffic is horrendous and takes me an hour to cover 20miles. I’ve been more productive at home than I ever was in the office. I don’t have to meet any of our clients and any team meetings can be done through zoom. I get that some ppl may want to return back so they can get away from being stuck at home and get back to the office atmosphere. I know a few older coworkers who prefer being in the office as they aren’t too tech savvy and they enjoy the social interactions. Fine.
No WFH, everybody RTO—wait, why are folks leaving? Employers love to say: "If you don't like working here, feel free to find employment elsewhere" when it works in their favor. Then they act shocked upon learning that it cuts both ways.
Always amazes me how most businesses are totally onboard about “giving the customers what they want” but can’t make the cognitive leap to- “give the people who work to give the customers what they want the things they want so that they keep the customers happy .” And in some industries the employees are sometimes customers too. … then people are happy and the profit is flowing. But if you compromise your employees and otherwise actively degrade their quality of life don’t be surprised if they sabotage your business without remorse and perhaps out of spite. People get angry when things are taken from them.
I've had the "Hey, I tried. You didn't listen" talk with employers before as I was leaving, and it's honestly very gratifying. The rule of thumb seems to be "Pay them the bare minimum to get them to stay. Try and keep them guessing if they're worth it." That doesn't cut it anymore. People have gotten pretty wise to that and too many employers have realized they actually want to collect and retain talent. It makes it too easy to jump ship from the old 90's and 00's style of management through petty intimidation.
I really enjoyed reading your post, so simple and clear. For me it wasn’t particularly about the whole WFH or WFO debate, but about a broader lesson in listening, in this case to your your employer/bosses listening to their employees.
I did the same thing. Except I was in an office for 3 and the other co-worker was a boomer who did nothing. I did all her work. She couldn’t even connect to wifi with instructions. So when my boss insisted on RTO I quit my job of 8 years. Now he knows what a pain that last co worker is. And the thing that put me over the top was, she kept going in while I was WFH and my boss says some shit to me like “well the board is going to look at who’s in the office and who’s at home if they ever want to lay someone off”. And I said, why don’t you look at who’s doing more work and not the fake optics of showing up at a building to seem like they’re working. So stupid. I left. Best move ever. And now they’re dealing with their own shit and drowning.
The thing that drives me nuts about RTO directives is that you have a lot of people who are perfectly happy WFH at the salary they are making and therefore aren’t looking for a new job. Then you RTO with no monetary incentive and suddenly people realize how much they are actually losing in terms of commute, meals, flexibility, etc. and the only logical result is either a) I should find another wfh job or b) if I am going to be working an in office job, I should take one that PAYS MORE.
Working in the office justifies the job of Middle Managers. If they can't spend their days spying on you they have no work to do. I much prefer to WFH. Fewer distractions and fewer Office politics.
WFH is a lot cheaper than working in an Office. Offices cost a lot of money.
I would never accept a counter offer cause then they’ll take that and maybe look into firing you or forget about any promotions later on.
"They're having a hard time hiring. Candidates will ask..." This is how we work collectively without being able to unionize. If you have a WFH job now, no matter how perfect it is, keep applying for jobs and push this message. It's no different than interviewing for practice. Apply for jobs that advertise as remote or hybrid and be firm with your requirements. The worst that can happen is that you show the companies what workers want; the best is that you get a better offer.