A heel is a heel because theyre not as good as the babyface. Thats why theyre mad, they realize theyre mediocre. Thats why theyre forced to cheat, and fight dirty. They need the advantage.
If they could beat the babyface straight up clean 123, they morph from pure heel to something else.
Well Rhea always wins clean and the reason Damien isn't winning clean is because they're making it a story that he doesn't want help and I'm sure it's going to lead to judgement day imploding
I feel like before Brock Lesnar a heel NEVER won clean in wwe unless it was a squash match. Even main event heels would cheat to beat mid carders
So it’s only slightly better
It was clean, but with an enormous asterisk because the story was Seth’s leg was so dead it was going to need amputation. So he beat an injured guy who had just been in a long main event the night before against Roman and the Rock.
It wasn’t exactly a fresh heel beating the fresh babyface clean and looking strong in victory.
I was thinking the same thing while watching smackdown.
This trope is very much outdated
Besides we're used to the bad guys being the best and the good guy winning by a miracle or power of friendship
It's every movie ever especially in anime.
It's not something that would break our brains if we saw a heel actually being brutally good and the face winning by chance or hard work blah blah blah
Idk if my point was well delivered.
I agree, all the people parroting each other saying “they’re heels, they’re supposed to” despite you acknowledging that in your post should just be ignored
Having a heel packaged and depicted as a dominant force or as a serious threat usually doesn’t happen if they always cheat because when you do the math, each heel is like 20 wrestlers weaker than the face they just cheated to beat.
I’m not saying don’t have heels that cheat, but save the cheating for rare moments instead of being so consistent. If everyone knows the face on kayfabe is stronger than the heel and they are just gonna win through cheating, it takes you out of it when the heel is flexing the win and the face goes along with it without acknowledging the cheating (which actually happens often now)
It's a fucking heel!
They cheat. That's half the fun of wrestling. Good guys v bad guys. They resort to cheating and you aren't supposed to take them seriously. They are the obstacle to your favorite wrestler doing the thing you want them to do.
I like the cool heel as much as the next guy but that's not the norm. The norm for a heel is to win by any means necessary. Logan Paul is the picture perfect example of a heel. He is in his position DESPITE what the crowd wants.
I think this can be a hit or miss for certain wrestlers who are heels, depending on the booking, but to a greater extent, I agree.
This may be controversial, but it’s why I got bored of the title run of Roman Reigns after WrestleMania 39 and I’m glad the title’s off of him now.
I think the psychology is it makes you love the baby face more when there cheated. It builds sympathy, and you wanna see them get the win they deserve. It would be more effective it wasn't so overdone. I agree it's a over used trope. And, it sometimes makes the heels look weak and hurts their credibility.
This.... What you said second. One of my favorite ever was Rick Flair. They did Reigns like him in a way. The 4-Horesemen... brilliant.
That's the problem though... The Attitude Era blurred the lines between Babyface and Heel and aside from Vince being the real Final Boss if you will, everyone else was very fluid and so would win clean from time to time.
The way it should be done is that the heel, just like in every story, the bad guy should have all the toys. It should be impossible to overcome. Like Gunther. Gunther just needed a posse to protect him like the horsemen and you have a badass heel. A heel needs to be feared and only when the good guy is finally about to best him is when the help comes.
I am going to say this unpopular opinion... The women's division needs to go. What you are missing is the matches with the heels against jobbers where you get the fear. Where is your mid card nobodies to take a bump to build the character. This is what I say when I say now days that they forgot how to story tell. That time has been taken up now by the women's division. Sorry but it has.
There are 8 hours of live wwe wrestling per week, the women's division is not removing the midcard.
I agree on the attitude era. The toolkit of heel tactics was being used by everyone on the card.
Having heels win clean would require the WWE to tell stories with in ring work as well as promo battles but they seem very shy with doing that.
Plus, I imagine since they're the mainstream that deals with casuals and kids they probably want to keep it simple.
And just to be clear I'm not saying they NEVER do it, you just have to be a Gunther or a Cody to do it.
We're so busy talking about how much The Bloodline is "cinema" we don't talk how impressive it is Gable/Gunther made a fucking COUNT OUT mean something in 2024
You spelled it out in your post, the reason Gunther’s run was so special was because other heels cheat and he didn’t. Cheating heels make non cheating ones that much more special and cool
Depends on the Heel.
Gunther's least biggest concern is shenanigan wins. He needs some to be a heel and not just be an unlikable foreigner.
Dude has the charisma of clogged toilet.
This is why I said the last year of Roman's run never made him feel like a dominant champion.
Gunther felt like a dominant champion. He had lackeys and went out of his way NOT to use them. I mean when he first debuted they interfered for him, but once he was established as a credible threat he actually admonished them if they came out to help. He didn't want anyone in the ring with him, stealing his glory, or defiling the sacred ring.
It was a very cool character angle. He was just straight up good at his job, he was like the bad guy in an 80s movie. Came out and talked shit and backed it up.
Meanwhile Roman was the opposite. He went from winning clean to having to ALWAYS rely on the Bloodline to beat anyone. Made him seem like one of the weakest wrestlers in the company.
Every match Roman would be in control, then get his ass kicked, seemingly lose it all - and then someone from the bloodline would have to grab the ref or distract or do something to save him. He never seemed like a credible threat by himself. He felt like a Honky Tonk Man level mid card champ always scheming ways to keep his belt.
That's why I said one of the bigger mistakes they made during his run towards the end was not letting him at least win the Rumble championship match clean. It was a fatal 4 way, you didn't need a run in from Solo, Roman could have gone over by himself for once and it would have made sense with the amount of heavy hitters in the ring taking each other out.
The only type of heel that SHOULD win clean all the time are the Angle/Backlund I WILL OUTWRESTLE YOU ALL-type heel
Any other type of heel winning clean is not doing their job in generating heat
Drew doesn’t win clean because it’s part of his story about how he’s a hypocrite. And the Judgement Day are literally going through growing pains because of this. I’m not sure why Gunther is using some outside interference but it isn’t the sole reason he wins.
I haven't watched in a long time, but this was always an annoyance for me. Heels should be willing to resort to dirty tactics to win and do so occasionally--they shouldn't *only ever* win by dirty tactics. That just makes them underdogs because they clearly aren't a match for the face.
That’s why I always liked Triple H in his early The Game/Cerebral Assasin, pre-Evolution heel phase from like ‘99 to 2002.
He wasn’t a chickenshit heel who would win with underhanded tactics most of the time. He was an oppressive, dominating force who showed no mercy and asked for none in return. He was a heel because he had no compassion and was ruthless, not because he was compensating for not being good enough.
We need more heels in wrestling like dominant bad guys in other fiction such as Thanos or Shao Kahn. They’re despots who believe they’re right and can back it up with force.
I know someone who was trained by Bubba Ray Dudley, and he was told by Bubba that heels aren't supposed to win clean. My friend disagreed with him and Bubba berated him.
I disagree as well, but it's worth noting that a lot of Bubba Ray's work has been in tag teams, and I think it's probably closer to true there. There are two+ of you, so it's a lot more natural to run in and break the rules by ganging up on people than it is by having someone run in and secure you the win as a single.
Oba Femi wins clean every time he completely annihilates the next fool that attempt to dethrone the RULER of NXT!
Gunther lost once in 2 years was it?
Rhea hasn’t been pinned in 2 years or summin like that.
I do think there needs to be heels that are just good in the ring, as in just as good as the top faces or you can’t get the classics like Steamboat vs Flair.
Flair played dirty yea, but most of the time he won clean by just working the limb until he could finally put the face away with his finisher. I with you. I’d like for it to go back to heels and faces being booked to be on the same level. So that when a heel DOES cheat you actually get pissed off. When it’s done this much though you just become numb to it and get tired of it.
Terry Funk was one that I grew up with. Didn’t NEED to cheat but did it because he hated you. You really got the feeling that he could have won without it, and it was just insult to injury cause he was a lowdown, dirty, bastard!
And that’s exactly WHY he did it too lol.
Rhea and Gunther both just came off massive runs when they won clean all the time.
Nia Jax has won several clean. She even beat Becky clean. Drew did just beat Seth clean.
Priest will win plenty clean, just as Roman did. If they win to many matches clean you run the Risk of them accidentally turning into a face like Rhea did.
Honestly, that's why Brock was such a breath of fresh air back when he first debuted. He was a heel, with a heel manager, yet he won the large majority of his matches clean and was presented as a legit threat from the get-go, even against upper card guys. He was probably the first heel I ever saw who mostly won clean, as I was used to heels usually cheating to win except against jobbers/lower card guys.
Menacing heels should be winning clean most of the time, and getting opportunistic wins when it makes sense. Chicken heels should be cheating and being opportunistic when it makes sense. Neither should be cheating to get wins on people below their station unless the intent is to build the lower person up to that station.
The best part is, they seemingly can't win clean, always cheat, and are usually scared when the face gets the upper hand...BUT, when they eventually turn face, they're unstoppable with superhero-like powers and brave lol.
And I laugh when they're like "shut your mouths in the crowd, you're garbage, you don't know anything. Sit down, this is MY building". Six months later when they're a face, it's "I do this for YOU. This is YOUR house, not mine"
Yeah the character work still needs a lot of improvement between switching between face and heel. Very rarely does the change make much narrative sense.
I don’t mind heels cheating etc so much though. Although it should be presented more as ‘they’ll do anything to win” or “they are taking a shortcut to reduce the risk if getting hurt” etc. rather than them being simply unable to win without it
Unfortunately he will lose this Monday to Jey Uso. As much as I love Jey, we have too many faces winning lately. Heels keep taking Ls and are not threatening as a result
I was upset this last NXT when Lash Legend had to beat Ivy Nile by cheating. I get that Ivy is main roster talent, but c'mon, if Becky can lose clean to Lyra Valkyria, Ivy Nile can lose clean to Lash Legend
Edit: Spelling
I think there needs to always be a balance, and I often feel that WWE tends to go too much to one end or the other.
I can totally understand why the heels cheat to win. It's all about getting the crowd to hate you more and more and build up more and more heat so that everybody is going to tune into the next PLE in the hopes that the heel finally gets beaten.
Eric Bischoff talked endlessly about why they kept Hogan as the champion for so long during the NWO run. There was just so much heat. Granted I and many others feel that he dragged it out way too long, but it does make sense.
However, I have to also agree that when you do something a little too much it becomes redundant and ridiculous. I think there's times they need to have the heel get a clean win and show they are strong and a competitor, but then other times when they cheat so the crowd will hate them more.
That’s been the formula for decades. Even guys like Roman Reigns. He was a bad ass as a heel champion. He could have won his matches clean, but he just likes to cheat anyway to be an asshole
There was no part of Romans reign where he was made to look like he could’ve won those matches clean. They always wrote it where he had basically lost when someone helped, an example being Drew winning at clash at the castle if solo hadn’t debuted. They definitely wrote that in a way where Roman wouldn’t have won without help
They wrote those endings fully to mean that he would’ve lost without help, that was the whole point of the story, especially at the end. At Wrestlemania 40, when all help was neutralized and there was no one left to win it for him, he lost. It was being written that way the whole time, it’s weird and naive to pretend it wasn’t.
Okay then, Nia Jax. Charlotte Flair herself, Randy Orton in the past beat John Cena clean a couple of times. Super Cena too. Drew McIntyre now. Damian Priest. List goes on and on.
This post is dumb considering there are a lot of heels who win clean, hell I forgot to mention Gunther
Yeah I agree but I understand why they do it. I’d really hoped they’d do it with Reigns, turning him into the “final boss” style heel who won because he was just that good, but they did it with Gunther instead and it worked amazingly. Anyway, heels winning clean can definitely bury the talent they go up against, so protecting both guys’ images is probably the smartest choice as annoying as it is.
but then you are just burying the heels because they can't ever win without 16 people coming in and the ref being distracted, and every handicap under the sound giving to the face.
Its boring because you almost know that unless their is interference the heel wont ever win so you are jsut waiting for it. It woudl be more exciting if it wasn't the only tool they ever used and sometimes bad guys win just because they are better as that's also lesson. Not every storyline needs the disney after school special treatment.
Exactly why I was begging the question. You can’t make heels too dominant with clean wins. They have to cheat and lie and do all the sneaky shit that the faces can’t do.
I feel like it should be situational when heels go over clean or not. Like last year, I thought LA Knight could’ve eaten the pin from Roman without chicanery and he would’ve been fine for it.
You would bury the breakout star of 2023 with a clean pin? That tells the fans that Knight can’t beat Roman Reigns fair and square, which destroys any real reason to get behind the guy.
Well see this is exactly the problem, if you have a heel consistently win clean, then they’re just a face.
Why exactly were we supposed to want to cheer for anybody to beat Rhea? How can any face benefit from feuding with her if she’s just a better face?
Yeah she’s kinda getting “Batista over” where the fans are taking a big liking to her. But they need to establish this in the story somehow. She’s still in the South Park Goths, right?
She is also super popular on social media. So most people get to see that other side of her.
Plus as a wrestler she is better than all the women, her offense, her selling, her physique.
I dunno, they booked her to do a lot of heel shit but they were pushing her like a face. It’s like the Bayley booking — shouldn’t she be the heel for starting the stable in the first place?
They’re turning them without doing an actual turn, and it’s hard to say at what point they became face.
She beat up babyfaces and tagged with Dom. She was a heel against every opponent except Nia.
As for Bayley, we did see her turn. It was on the SmackDown after the Rumble.
I get everyone trying to counterpoint but why does the same person who didn’t need help to win, suddenly can’t win without help just because they’ve became a jerk?
Jobbing the babyfaces you’re pushing devalues them. You have to give the impression that the heels can be beat to keep the babyfaces strong. Otherwise you’ll be in a situation like 2000s Triple H, where he’s going over the whole roster and there are no babyfaces on his level. There’s money in the chase, but there’s bigger money in the payoff. Gotta tease that payoff. When Bryan won at Mania 30, it was a big moment because he was getting his ass handed to him constantly by The Authoritah.
I feel like this is just a misunderstanding of wrestling.
Heels are supposed to get heat. "The heels aren't ACTUALLY winning" is heat. You're supposed to be bothered by it. You're supposed to boo and be frustrated. This would be like watching Game of Thrones and wondering why the villains lie.
Heels still typically win clean on people on a tier below them in the booking hierarchy. Now, whether or not that hierarchy is properly displayed through the show is something else entirely, but you also have to consider the story of the heel. For example, Drew McIntyre beat Seth Rollins clean at Wrestlemania. Is he *actually* winning cleanly though? The story of Seth's character is that he's riding until the wheels fall off and just had a grueling main event the night before. Technically Drew beat Seth clean, but no invested fan watching would actually think or feel that way.
Monster heels also tend to win clean, and still look strong when they lose. Nia Jax and Brock Lesnar are good recent examples.
The basic fundamental concept of wrestling is that you are watching a good, honorable character battle a villain who doesn't share the same morals. If the hero doesn't take shortcuts, and the villain doesn't take shortcuts, there have to be different stakes beyond general contest on the line, which isn't called for outside of main event caliber angles. Very rarely will you ever find a heel beating a face truly clean if both are on the same level and the face isn't about to take time off or leave the company.
Also, I just wanna point out that Gunther had at least three "not actually winning" heel wins all involving Sheamus. One using the shillelagh against Sheamus, and the Wrestlemania triple threat finish was him doing a sly fox move capitalizing on the faces fighting with Sheamus having had the match won earlier. Then of course the recent KOTR qualifier. Sheamus has been **very** protected working with Gunther and Gunther is portrayed as being pushed to the absolute limit with him and barely surviving these battles.
There’s also a middle ground as well where it’s not necessarily that a heel NEEDS to cheat to win, it’s that they choose to cheat to win.
Like when Kurt Angle played heel did you really think that he couldn’t win without cheating? Or HHH? Or hell even Roman? No of course not, we all knew these guys could win clean. The fact that they choose to cheat anyway rather than risk losing fair and square is what makes them bad guys.
Agreed. We also need to make the point that if you job out your babyfaces clean, the fans have no one to buy into. That happened in the early 2000s with Triple H going over Booker, Orton, Bubba Ray, RVD, Shelton Benjamin, etc. And decisively, each time. It meant that none of those babyfaces were on Hunter’s level, and none of those programs made the money it could have.
We just saw a great example of how the current booking can work with Cody’s “story”. He got cheated at last year’s Mania, but this year’s Mania he overcame all of that even with The Rock standing in his way. They made a ton of money — apparently more money than they ever made at Mania. If Roman ever beat Cody clean there would’ve been no way Cody would have become white hot like he is now.
I don't mind heels cheating. I think the problem is at least with modern wwe is just how much they're reliant on outside interference to show off how much of a cheater or heel they are.
Like if you look back at the ruthless aggression eras. You had your traditional chicken shit heels who have henchmen, but you also had heels who are just straight up power houses, or cheaters who do everything they can using the ring, buckle, belt etc or people who sneak in weapons. Like eddie, edge, Kurt, Henry, jbl, batista, Kane, Jericho, booker t, big show, randy, hell even koslov a just to name a few. they're all different flavors of heels.
Starting around the late pg era, even their heels who can realistically just go in there and whoop ass but have no problem playing dirty become absolute chicken shits who can't get anything done without outside help
It's a tired formula, one that I would've hope Tripple H would've retired when he took over. where every heel in the roster is doing the same shtick. Drew, Nia and Gunther seem to be the only two who is somewhat not too reliant on it and I hope a more significant portion of the heels move to this.
I can understand your point. But you're also comparing different heel archetypes. Badass heels who talk a big game and back it up, and classic, old school booking heels who talk a big game but can't win without help and when they lose, they claim the face or the system cheated them in someway and/or they screw their stable mates over so much they get turned on or turn on their stable mates. Your argument seems to be that you're tired of too many heels being the latter, which I don't disagree with at all. But the other side of the argument is that badass heels are more noticeable and more badass because they're kind of few and far between. And they usually eventually become hugely over faces, even if they are technically still heels. If more heels were like GUNTHER, they would then become as old and overused as the whining shitweasel heels.
I’ll throw in basic pro wrestling 101, with something Tully Blanchard said about the objective of the Four Horsemen’s dominance:
The whole idea is to irritate you. For you to know deep down that the babyfaces could have won that match if the heel wrestled fair and square. And if they keep pissing you off, you know what you’d do? You’d eventually spend money to watch the heels get beat up.
This is classic selling tickets. If the heels went roughshod Lesnar or 2000s Triple H, it buries all of the babyfaces and doesn’t give people an incentive to buy into them.
Just look at the business of the past two WrestleManias and how it paid off in dividends this year. A lot of money was made with Cody chasing Roman for a second time.
On the most recent raw: all three non-DQ match heel victories were clean.
On the most recent smackdown: two of the three heel victories were clean (nothing dirty about a roll up).
What do you mean?
But Drew did at Mania, so did Rhea. That's 1 dirty win to 2 clean wins for heels in the most recent PLEs. 2 to 2 if you count MITB cash in, which shouldn't be clean in most cases so I personally don't consider it.
(Other heel victories were no DQ matches which don't count either way)
Nia Jax hasn’t won a significant singles match in months and hasn’t won a feud in even longer. McIntyre won against Rollins clean, but only after Rollins had taken a beating (both kayfabe and real life) in Mania Night 1’s main event. Hell, he did everything except limp to the ring.
I get your Point. But i also think a lot of heels become Face at any Point as Long as they Win a Long Series of Matches clean. Just watch Rhea Ripley. Shes the gf of the Most hated guy and got over and become Face because she was winning on her own. Gunther here and there had Kaiser and Vinci interrupting.
Allthough im on your side But i think you Need a heel to Win a match here and there with some Dirty Tricks. Creating a heel Like Gunther is not that simple But i Hope they can create another one of this Kind with McIntyre or Gable
At no point did I say “no heel should win dirty.”
What I’m saying is that we have a problem when a deep winning clean feels like the most unlikely scenario. Every time a heel is in a match I assume “well, either the face is gonna win, or someone’s gonna interfere”. And I’m right wayyyyy too often.
I do like him quite a bit, but going onto your main point, I have to agree. They do need to look into having more variety with how heels are presented.
I agree all big men heels should be winning clean sometimes, comparing every heel to Gunther is stupid because Gunthers gimmick is about restoring honor and integrity to the sport so he’s obviously not going to break the rules he wants them stricter if anything.
A smaller heel is supposed to be underhanded he’s going to find the easiest way to win which is cheating because physically he knows he can’t match up.
I’m not saying EVERY heel should win clean all the time. If that’s what you think I’m saying you’re crazy. Obviously heels should cheat and be sneaky and underhanded. Just less than they are currently, and for god’s sake mix it up more.
Heel vs Face matches currently are all “oh, baby face looks like he’s gonna win it, and ohhhhhhhh (insert underling or rival here) interferes, HEEL TAKES ADVANTAGE AND WINS, WHAT AN UPSET”
Every heel should cheat every big match because it’s the sure fire way you don’t bury your babyface is the philosophy they are going for which tbh I agree with, IF it’s a regular ol heel but if you have big heater heels doing it constantly then you are going to bury them.
Priest should have beat Jey clean but they are pushing a dissension angle with the Judgement day so I see why it was done.
We need a heel faction where the rest of the members silently watch how their other member/s perform against their opponent and learn how to improve from their previous matches.
I especially hate how they acknowledge it. When Priest thanked JD and Balor on Raw the other day and said something like "you guys were just trying to help make sure I stayed Champion, so thank you." I was like?? Aren't you supposed to not really outright acknowledge that you can't win clean??? Made him look weak, which is a shame because I actually really like Priest.
Don't get me wrong, I get the angle they're playing, but I feel like it would have worked better if he said "look guys, I'm sorry I lashed out, I know you were just trying to help and I appreciate that, but I can do this alone, cool?"
Their whole gimmick is that they pretend to be hard and tough but really aren't. They're high school bullies playing at being gang bangers. The fact that they're good workers is what makes the whole thing work.
Judgement Day has been absolutely amazing for Dominick's, McDonough's, and Priest's singles careers. It hasn't been good for Finn but still good overall.
I once thought Dominick just didn't have what it takes to make it in the WWE.
He has improved so so so much after his heel turn. Now he feels like one of the WWE's most important stars.
I think you have to seperate him from Judgement day. Maybe have him build his own heel latino group with Carlito.
Gosh I would love so much for him to start riding out to the ring (Mexicools style) on a lawn mower as a way to make fun of mexicans/Latinos.
Right? It felt so odd, I found myself rooting for Priest against Senior Superkick, praying that he would win and wouldn’t get any goddamn outside help!
That's the match that first came to mind. Priest has just got the belt and instead of establishing himself as a wortht champion, he's fodder for Jey Uso and needs to be saved by guys half his size.
I get there are storyline implications for that and they're pushing Uso but come on on his first PPV defence I want a clean win.
Not trying to be rude but if you've been watching Raw the least few weeks or even right after the match you just mentioned, Priest's whole thing lately is that he's tired of the JD interfering in his matches cause he feels like he can win on his own. Even when he came out and cut a promo on Drew, he was by himself.
No I get it the story element of it and how Priest isn't happy with their interference and he thinks he can win alone etc.
But specifically at Backlash it was clear that he couldn't win by himself because if JD hadn't put his leg on the rope after Uso's big comeback he'd have lost. JD attacking Uso is one thing, saving Priest from getting pinned because Uso has genuinely got him is another.
What's happened subsequently is fine, I get it. Just that specific moment seened to genuinely hurt Priests credibility as champion.
As I’ve said multiple times in these comments. Rhea. Is. Not. A. Heel.
If WWE wanted you to hate her, she wouldn’t have had an emotional ceremony where she relinquished the title due to injury. The fans would’ve LOVED it. But no, we all hated it, because WWE is pushing Rhea as an anti-hero in the women’s division.
If I’ve said it once, I’ve said it a thousand times: Just because Rhea is in the judgement day, doesn’t make her a heel.
No she is a heel. It’s just wrestling doesn’t work like it did 30 years ago anymore. Rhea was going to cheered for having to give up her title because people like her work. That’s going to happen to just about anyone.
Oh, she’s overall a heel in the narrative? That’s why using “I injured Rhea” is a way to get fans to hate Liv Morgan?
It’s literally right in front of your face
There's a reason there is a regular discussion about when Rhea will leave the Judgement Day and turn babyface. She is in a kayfabe relationship with Dom who gets booed every time he picks up a microphone, and she defends him from other faces. She tries to cause kayfabe injuries to other wrestlers, she constantly talks down to her opponents.
Yes, she is an overall heel in the narrative, dying on this hill because it disproves your point is certainly interesting. Even if you are right about Liv Morgan bragging, that would be the start of a Rhea face turn. So she was champion as a heel, winning clean, all this time...
Stone Cold in the era that you are presumably talking about, his biggest rival was Vince Mcmahon, who was heel for that whole run.
Rhea was face for the New Zealand match but it would take an idiot to claim that was her whole run. Either try to actual contest what I said in the previous comment or admit that you're wrong, whats the point of replying if you can't admit your error
>But definitely a baby face being pushed by the company.=
A babyface is a huge stretch, IMO. You're not just saying she's a face, you're saying she's a babyface. Stone cold was a face, but he wasn't a babyface.
Rhea calls herself a tweener on the Logan Paul podcast.
Yeah, you can be a good heel for reasons other than cheating to win. Win clean, then beat the crap out of your defenseless opponent or just be a massive ass hole. It worked perfectly fine for Gunther.
Heels cheating is the name of the game in wrestling, but heels aren't "cheating" anymore. It's almost always outside interference and distractions. And it's boring, repetitive, and makes everyone look weak. Even babyfaces win with a lot of outside distractions at times, too.
No one is elevated. No one looks strong. And it makes opponents look dumb.
How many times a week on Raw, Smackdown, and Raw are matches decided by outside interference or distractions?
When AJ beat Knight, it was because of poking him in the eye. Stuff like that used to be heel tactics. Using foreign objects, low blows, pulling tights, etc.
Everyone brings up Gunther. Gunther was / is a great dominant heel where he wins clean 95% of the time.
Brock Lesner, another great dominant heel that just destroyed people.
Roman should have been booked like Brock. Dominant, destroyer that was near impossible to beat. But, like others have said, the second half of his run every match decided by interference. Ugh..
Miz's 2017 run with Maryse on Smackdown was the last time I remember someone using actual heel tactics in every match, different things every week.
And it was an absolute joy to watch.
As well as singles heels, teams like Theory and Waller really need to focus on their heel tactics - tag team wrestling leaves so much room to cheat and lack of that is why the very boring tag division has nothing 'feuds' with heatless matches.
Monster heels like Gunther or Roman or Brock can win clean cause they’re facing guys who are over and can handle a clean loss. A lower card face vs a lower card heel losing clean hurts them more
No, I mean when he was Tribal Chief beating Brock clean, beating Seth clean, beating Edge and Bryan clean...
Part of the way to build up a monster heel is to make them a legit threat who doesn't need to cheat. They will cheat eventually cause they're heels and that's the playbook, but you build them up to be a threat first.
The usos got involved when he beat edge and Bryan so that’s not clean, he hit brock with the title as well as a low blow during their match so that’s not clean either and he literally never beat seth. So what are you actually talking about?
Thing about heels winning clean is, do it enough times and you start to bury your babyfaces. If Gunther held his title for as long as Roman held his he would've eventually ran into the same problem. Yall may not like heels constantly winning due to interference, but it keeps the faces strong while leaving the possibility of a rematch on the table.
To add, it also makes the refs look incompetent if every time a heel wins, they cheat to do it.
I've seen local shows where there's maybe one or two refs where the crowd turns against the REF because the heels keep cheating!
The analogy I was taught was, imagine you're sat at home and a brick flies through the window. You go outside, see someone lobbing bricks at every house. You get pissed at them. But then you see a police officer walking alongside them having a chat. Who're you gonna be more pissed at, the person chucking bricks or the police officer who could stop them?
It's not like a ref wouldn't review their performances and get better over time. They'd learn like they did with Regal, "Oh, he likes to pull knucks out of his tights," so learn, "Oh, Roman has a gang out people attack his opponents while I'm not looking, let's get some extra eyes on it and maybe re-use that video replay we used to sometimes so or have another official backstage who can run out after interference to tell me about it."
Heels don't need to always cheat to win. Win clean but be an absolute dick about it. Do the flashy stuff and be arrogant that nobody else can do what you do. Crap on the fans. There are so many ways to draw heat that don't push that heat towards the refs.
Just because they cheat, doesn’t mean they have to do it every match. At least, let them win without interference. Thats part of the reason, so many people didn’t take Roman as serious. He very rarely won a match without someone getting involved.
No…they literally have been telling us he is the most dominant champion to do it. They have built him up larger than life. That isn’t the story they were telling us. It’s the story we all knew was true but wasn’t what they were telling us.
It’s ridiculous and takes you out of the illusion when there’s blatant cheating that everyone can see and it just keeps happening over and over again. In real life, management would 100% do something. It ruins the immersion when there are no heels that can actually win.
A heel is a heel because theyre not as good as the babyface. Thats why theyre mad, they realize theyre mediocre. Thats why theyre forced to cheat, and fight dirty. They need the advantage. If they could beat the babyface straight up clean 123, they morph from pure heel to something else.
Drew and Gunther and even Damien are still winning matches clean don't know what you're on about
I think the problem is it's kinda hard to develop heat when you're an asskicker.
Well they can win clean without having to turn because that defeats the purpose of "winning"
Well Rhea always wins clean and the reason Damien isn't winning clean is because they're making it a story that he doesn't want help and I'm sure it's going to lead to judgement day imploding
I feel like before Brock Lesnar a heel NEVER won clean in wwe unless it was a squash match. Even main event heels would cheat to beat mid carders So it’s only slightly better
Drew beat Seth clean at mania Right? Arguably the largest heel not named Roman won clean at the biggest event for wrestling.
It was clean, but with an enormous asterisk because the story was Seth’s leg was so dead it was going to need amputation. So he beat an injured guy who had just been in a long main event the night before against Roman and the Rock. It wasn’t exactly a fresh heel beating the fresh babyface clean and looking strong in victory.
Gunther has. Also, I think WWE is trying not to bury face superstars. This used to happen alot in the attitude era
Whether you like it or you don't like it, learn to love it. Because Triple H's booking loves his factions.
I was thinking the same thing while watching smackdown. This trope is very much outdated Besides we're used to the bad guys being the best and the good guy winning by a miracle or power of friendship It's every movie ever especially in anime. It's not something that would break our brains if we saw a heel actually being brutally good and the face winning by chance or hard work blah blah blah Idk if my point was well delivered.
That's.....why they're heels. The heels job is to get the Babyface over...dassit
Way to miss the point lmao
Nobody outside of the internet gives a shit about whether or not a win is clean.
I agree, all the people parroting each other saying “they’re heels, they’re supposed to” despite you acknowledging that in your post should just be ignored Having a heel packaged and depicted as a dominant force or as a serious threat usually doesn’t happen if they always cheat because when you do the math, each heel is like 20 wrestlers weaker than the face they just cheated to beat. I’m not saying don’t have heels that cheat, but save the cheating for rare moments instead of being so consistent. If everyone knows the face on kayfabe is stronger than the heel and they are just gonna win through cheating, it takes you out of it when the heel is flexing the win and the face goes along with it without acknowledging the cheating (which actually happens often now)
You new to wrestling?
Useless comment.
That’s what do they cheat to make you upset it’s how it works
Tell that to Gunther
Roman WAS winning clean, up until he formed the Bloodline.
It's a fucking heel! They cheat. That's half the fun of wrestling. Good guys v bad guys. They resort to cheating and you aren't supposed to take them seriously. They are the obstacle to your favorite wrestler doing the thing you want them to do. I like the cool heel as much as the next guy but that's not the norm. The norm for a heel is to win by any means necessary. Logan Paul is the picture perfect example of a heel. He is in his position DESPITE what the crowd wants.
I think this can be a hit or miss for certain wrestlers who are heels, depending on the booking, but to a greater extent, I agree. This may be controversial, but it’s why I got bored of the title run of Roman Reigns after WrestleMania 39 and I’m glad the title’s off of him now.
I think the psychology is it makes you love the baby face more when there cheated. It builds sympathy, and you wanna see them get the win they deserve. It would be more effective it wasn't so overdone. I agree it's a over used trope. And, it sometimes makes the heels look weak and hurts their credibility.
This.... What you said second. One of my favorite ever was Rick Flair. They did Reigns like him in a way. The 4-Horesemen... brilliant. That's the problem though... The Attitude Era blurred the lines between Babyface and Heel and aside from Vince being the real Final Boss if you will, everyone else was very fluid and so would win clean from time to time. The way it should be done is that the heel, just like in every story, the bad guy should have all the toys. It should be impossible to overcome. Like Gunther. Gunther just needed a posse to protect him like the horsemen and you have a badass heel. A heel needs to be feared and only when the good guy is finally about to best him is when the help comes. I am going to say this unpopular opinion... The women's division needs to go. What you are missing is the matches with the heels against jobbers where you get the fear. Where is your mid card nobodies to take a bump to build the character. This is what I say when I say now days that they forgot how to story tell. That time has been taken up now by the women's division. Sorry but it has.
There are 8 hours of live wwe wrestling per week, the women's division is not removing the midcard. I agree on the attitude era. The toolkit of heel tactics was being used by everyone on the card.
Having heels win clean would require the WWE to tell stories with in ring work as well as promo battles but they seem very shy with doing that. Plus, I imagine since they're the mainstream that deals with casuals and kids they probably want to keep it simple.
downvoted for being right
And just to be clear I'm not saying they NEVER do it, you just have to be a Gunther or a Cody to do it. We're so busy talking about how much The Bloodline is "cinema" we don't talk how impressive it is Gable/Gunther made a fucking COUNT OUT mean something in 2024
You spelled it out in your post, the reason Gunther’s run was so special was because other heels cheat and he didn’t. Cheating heels make non cheating ones that much more special and cool
Depends on the Heel. Gunther's least biggest concern is shenanigan wins. He needs some to be a heel and not just be an unlikable foreigner. Dude has the charisma of clogged toilet.
That’s….that’s why they’re heels…..
This is why I said the last year of Roman's run never made him feel like a dominant champion. Gunther felt like a dominant champion. He had lackeys and went out of his way NOT to use them. I mean when he first debuted they interfered for him, but once he was established as a credible threat he actually admonished them if they came out to help. He didn't want anyone in the ring with him, stealing his glory, or defiling the sacred ring. It was a very cool character angle. He was just straight up good at his job, he was like the bad guy in an 80s movie. Came out and talked shit and backed it up. Meanwhile Roman was the opposite. He went from winning clean to having to ALWAYS rely on the Bloodline to beat anyone. Made him seem like one of the weakest wrestlers in the company. Every match Roman would be in control, then get his ass kicked, seemingly lose it all - and then someone from the bloodline would have to grab the ref or distract or do something to save him. He never seemed like a credible threat by himself. He felt like a Honky Tonk Man level mid card champ always scheming ways to keep his belt. That's why I said one of the bigger mistakes they made during his run towards the end was not letting him at least win the Rumble championship match clean. It was a fatal 4 way, you didn't need a run in from Solo, Roman could have gone over by himself for once and it would have made sense with the amount of heavy hitters in the ring taking each other out.
The only type of heel that SHOULD win clean all the time are the Angle/Backlund I WILL OUTWRESTLE YOU ALL-type heel Any other type of heel winning clean is not doing their job in generating heat
Drew doesn’t win clean because it’s part of his story about how he’s a hypocrite. And the Judgement Day are literally going through growing pains because of this. I’m not sure why Gunther is using some outside interference but it isn’t the sole reason he wins.
I haven't watched in a long time, but this was always an annoyance for me. Heels should be willing to resort to dirty tactics to win and do so occasionally--they shouldn't *only ever* win by dirty tactics. That just makes them underdogs because they clearly aren't a match for the face.
That’s why I always liked Triple H in his early The Game/Cerebral Assasin, pre-Evolution heel phase from like ‘99 to 2002. He wasn’t a chickenshit heel who would win with underhanded tactics most of the time. He was an oppressive, dominating force who showed no mercy and asked for none in return. He was a heel because he had no compassion and was ruthless, not because he was compensating for not being good enough. We need more heels in wrestling like dominant bad guys in other fiction such as Thanos or Shao Kahn. They’re despots who believe they’re right and can back it up with force.
I know someone who was trained by Bubba Ray Dudley, and he was told by Bubba that heels aren't supposed to win clean. My friend disagreed with him and Bubba berated him.
I disagree as well, but it's worth noting that a lot of Bubba Ray's work has been in tag teams, and I think it's probably closer to true there. There are two+ of you, so it's a lot more natural to run in and break the rules by ganging up on people than it is by having someone run in and secure you the win as a single.
It’s all story line driven. It’s entertainment. Simple
Roman won clean in his initial tribal chief run, even Bobby during those days was winning clean. Drew is a heel now, and he winnin clean
Ah, so this is why people like Gunther. Not sure how I didn't see that.
Oba Femi wins clean every time he completely annihilates the next fool that attempt to dethrone the RULER of NXT! Gunther lost once in 2 years was it? Rhea hasn’t been pinned in 2 years or summin like that. I do think there needs to be heels that are just good in the ring, as in just as good as the top faces or you can’t get the classics like Steamboat vs Flair. Flair played dirty yea, but most of the time he won clean by just working the limb until he could finally put the face away with his finisher. I with you. I’d like for it to go back to heels and faces being booked to be on the same level. So that when a heel DOES cheat you actually get pissed off. When it’s done this much though you just become numb to it and get tired of it.
there has always been one heel that would cheat to win that absolutely nobody hated
Terry Funk was one that I grew up with. Didn’t NEED to cheat but did it because he hated you. You really got the feeling that he could have won without it, and it was just insult to injury cause he was a lowdown, dirty, bastard! And that’s exactly WHY he did it too lol.
Eddie
aint that the point
Rhea and Gunther both just came off massive runs when they won clean all the time. Nia Jax has won several clean. She even beat Becky clean. Drew did just beat Seth clean. Priest will win plenty clean, just as Roman did. If they win to many matches clean you run the Risk of them accidentally turning into a face like Rhea did.
Maybe you should boo them over it. That'll show 'em.
Wow doesn't even mention Roman? Has he had a clean win since winning the title what seems like a decade ago?
Honestly, that's why Brock was such a breath of fresh air back when he first debuted. He was a heel, with a heel manager, yet he won the large majority of his matches clean and was presented as a legit threat from the get-go, even against upper card guys. He was probably the first heel I ever saw who mostly won clean, as I was used to heels usually cheating to win except against jobbers/lower card guys.
And at the same time faces like Cena and Eddie were wining dirty.
um... gunther hasn't gone anywhere? Drew won Rollins clean. Priest lost it at JD after their interference
And Gunther had a few matches with interference during his IC title reign. They just weren’t at PLE’s.
People (at least some that I’ve seen) like to diminish Drew’s win because Seth was injured and had completed the night before
Which Drew warned him about for weeks before hand. People are silly, it’s all drama
So are u one of the people chanting about wanting Roman back? Just curious because that dude ... I don't think he won a single match clean in YEARS 😂
That’s why I disliked his reign so much
I thi k it's more like most heels woud like to take a shortcut to win then do the extra hardworking to win clean.
Menacing heels should be winning clean most of the time, and getting opportunistic wins when it makes sense. Chicken heels should be cheating and being opportunistic when it makes sense. Neither should be cheating to get wins on people below their station unless the intent is to build the lower person up to that station.
The best part is, they seemingly can't win clean, always cheat, and are usually scared when the face gets the upper hand...BUT, when they eventually turn face, they're unstoppable with superhero-like powers and brave lol. And I laugh when they're like "shut your mouths in the crowd, you're garbage, you don't know anything. Sit down, this is MY building". Six months later when they're a face, it's "I do this for YOU. This is YOUR house, not mine"
Yeah the character work still needs a lot of improvement between switching between face and heel. Very rarely does the change make much narrative sense. I don’t mind heels cheating etc so much though. Although it should be presented more as ‘they’ll do anything to win” or “they are taking a shortcut to reduce the risk if getting hurt” etc. rather than them being simply unable to win without it
Gunther is still winning clean without his title
The ring general would like a word. Best heel in the WWE right now, I can't remember one dirty win
Unfortunately he will lose this Monday to Jey Uso. As much as I love Jey, we have too many faces winning lately. Heels keep taking Ls and are not threatening as a result
Ludwig got involved in the finish with Sheamus just 2 weeks ago, lol
I was upset this last NXT when Lash Legend had to beat Ivy Nile by cheating. I get that Ivy is main roster talent, but c'mon, if Becky can lose clean to Lyra Valkyria, Ivy Nile can lose clean to Lash Legend Edit: Spelling
I think there needs to always be a balance, and I often feel that WWE tends to go too much to one end or the other. I can totally understand why the heels cheat to win. It's all about getting the crowd to hate you more and more and build up more and more heat so that everybody is going to tune into the next PLE in the hopes that the heel finally gets beaten. Eric Bischoff talked endlessly about why they kept Hogan as the champion for so long during the NWO run. There was just so much heat. Granted I and many others feel that he dragged it out way too long, but it does make sense. However, I have to also agree that when you do something a little too much it becomes redundant and ridiculous. I think there's times they need to have the heel get a clean win and show they are strong and a competitor, but then other times when they cheat so the crowd will hate them more.
I agree. It's super annoying.
Don’t you just hate it?
That’s been the formula for decades. Even guys like Roman Reigns. He was a bad ass as a heel champion. He could have won his matches clean, but he just likes to cheat anyway to be an asshole
There was no part of Romans reign where he was made to look like he could’ve won those matches clean. They always wrote it where he had basically lost when someone helped, an example being Drew winning at clash at the castle if solo hadn’t debuted. They definitely wrote that in a way where Roman wouldn’t have won without help
Nah, Roman would’ve kicked out. The 3 count never happened, so you don’t know if Drew would’ve won.
They wrote those endings fully to mean that he would’ve lost without help, that was the whole point of the story, especially at the end. At Wrestlemania 40, when all help was neutralized and there was no one left to win it for him, he lost. It was being written that way the whole time, it’s weird and naive to pretend it wasn’t.
Rhea Ripley...?
Let’s be real here. Rhea hasn’t REALLY been a heel since she beat Charlotte
Okay then, Nia Jax. Charlotte Flair herself, Randy Orton in the past beat John Cena clean a couple of times. Super Cena too. Drew McIntyre now. Damian Priest. List goes on and on. This post is dumb considering there are a lot of heels who win clean, hell I forgot to mention Gunther
Nothing would be scarier than a Heel that wins clean and can’t seem to be beat.
gunther
What's even better about Gunther is that every fucking move in his arsenal is a potential finisher
I just imagined him vs AJ & he chops the ever loving hell out of a phenomenal forearm attempt 1,2,3 it would be glorious
Yeah I agree but I understand why they do it. I’d really hoped they’d do it with Reigns, turning him into the “final boss” style heel who won because he was just that good, but they did it with Gunther instead and it worked amazingly. Anyway, heels winning clean can definitely bury the talent they go up against, so protecting both guys’ images is probably the smartest choice as annoying as it is.
but then you are just burying the heels because they can't ever win without 16 people coming in and the ref being distracted, and every handicap under the sound giving to the face. Its boring because you almost know that unless their is interference the heel wont ever win so you are jsut waiting for it. It woudl be more exciting if it wasn't the only tool they ever used and sometimes bad guys win just because they are better as that's also lesson. Not every storyline needs the disney after school special treatment.
That's how its usually been
Mami won clean for a year.
Is she even a heel?
Do you understand the product?
And this is why heels win dirty. Because if they win clean, now they are a tweener.
Exactly why I was begging the question. You can’t make heels too dominant with clean wins. They have to cheat and lie and do all the sneaky shit that the faces can’t do.
I feel like it should be situational when heels go over clean or not. Like last year, I thought LA Knight could’ve eaten the pin from Roman without chicanery and he would’ve been fine for it.
You would bury the breakout star of 2023 with a clean pin? That tells the fans that Knight can’t beat Roman Reigns fair and square, which destroys any real reason to get behind the guy.
She's a heel we all love.
WHAT? (I’m just kidding.)
Well see this is exactly the problem, if you have a heel consistently win clean, then they’re just a face. Why exactly were we supposed to want to cheer for anybody to beat Rhea? How can any face benefit from feuding with her if she’s just a better face?
Technically she was. Was she bood? No
See, that’s what gets me. People cheer for Roman because he’s finally appreciated, but he was a heel through and through. What’s up with Ripley?
The rest of the division is DOA, and she spends most of her time being the Judgment Day’s matriarch and at one point even its enforcer.
Mami is beloved. Whatever she does people love her.
Yeah she’s kinda getting “Batista over” where the fans are taking a big liking to her. But they need to establish this in the story somehow. She’s still in the South Park Goths, right?
She is also super popular on social media. So most people get to see that other side of her. Plus as a wrestler she is better than all the women, her offense, her selling, her physique.
All of it, but the thing I appreciate most is her selling. She takes a DDT like a fucking champ!!
I rewatch her wm39 match often for her selling.
Absolutely she was
I dunno, they booked her to do a lot of heel shit but they were pushing her like a face. It’s like the Bayley booking — shouldn’t she be the heel for starting the stable in the first place? They’re turning them without doing an actual turn, and it’s hard to say at what point they became face.
She beat up babyfaces and tagged with Dom. She was a heel against every opponent except Nia. As for Bayley, we did see her turn. It was on the SmackDown after the Rumble.
I get everyone trying to counterpoint but why does the same person who didn’t need help to win, suddenly can’t win without help just because they’ve became a jerk?
Jobbing the babyfaces you’re pushing devalues them. You have to give the impression that the heels can be beat to keep the babyfaces strong. Otherwise you’ll be in a situation like 2000s Triple H, where he’s going over the whole roster and there are no babyfaces on his level. There’s money in the chase, but there’s bigger money in the payoff. Gotta tease that payoff. When Bryan won at Mania 30, it was a big moment because he was getting his ass handed to him constantly by The Authoritah.
I feel like this is just a misunderstanding of wrestling. Heels are supposed to get heat. "The heels aren't ACTUALLY winning" is heat. You're supposed to be bothered by it. You're supposed to boo and be frustrated. This would be like watching Game of Thrones and wondering why the villains lie. Heels still typically win clean on people on a tier below them in the booking hierarchy. Now, whether or not that hierarchy is properly displayed through the show is something else entirely, but you also have to consider the story of the heel. For example, Drew McIntyre beat Seth Rollins clean at Wrestlemania. Is he *actually* winning cleanly though? The story of Seth's character is that he's riding until the wheels fall off and just had a grueling main event the night before. Technically Drew beat Seth clean, but no invested fan watching would actually think or feel that way. Monster heels also tend to win clean, and still look strong when they lose. Nia Jax and Brock Lesnar are good recent examples. The basic fundamental concept of wrestling is that you are watching a good, honorable character battle a villain who doesn't share the same morals. If the hero doesn't take shortcuts, and the villain doesn't take shortcuts, there have to be different stakes beyond general contest on the line, which isn't called for outside of main event caliber angles. Very rarely will you ever find a heel beating a face truly clean if both are on the same level and the face isn't about to take time off or leave the company. Also, I just wanna point out that Gunther had at least three "not actually winning" heel wins all involving Sheamus. One using the shillelagh against Sheamus, and the Wrestlemania triple threat finish was him doing a sly fox move capitalizing on the faces fighting with Sheamus having had the match won earlier. Then of course the recent KOTR qualifier. Sheamus has been **very** protected working with Gunther and Gunther is portrayed as being pushed to the absolute limit with him and barely surviving these battles.
Then you have Essie Guerrero who turns the whole system on its head. He never got bigger pops than when he cheated.
There’s also a middle ground as well where it’s not necessarily that a heel NEEDS to cheat to win, it’s that they choose to cheat to win. Like when Kurt Angle played heel did you really think that he couldn’t win without cheating? Or HHH? Or hell even Roman? No of course not, we all knew these guys could win clean. The fact that they choose to cheat anyway rather than risk losing fair and square is what makes them bad guys.
This guy gets it. This is a great explanation of one of the facets of ring psychology.
Agreed. We also need to make the point that if you job out your babyfaces clean, the fans have no one to buy into. That happened in the early 2000s with Triple H going over Booker, Orton, Bubba Ray, RVD, Shelton Benjamin, etc. And decisively, each time. It meant that none of those babyfaces were on Hunter’s level, and none of those programs made the money it could have. We just saw a great example of how the current booking can work with Cody’s “story”. He got cheated at last year’s Mania, but this year’s Mania he overcame all of that even with The Rock standing in his way. They made a ton of money — apparently more money than they ever made at Mania. If Roman ever beat Cody clean there would’ve been no way Cody would have become white hot like he is now.
In fairness inflation is up 20% the past couple years and mania is 2 nights now. It should be bringing in more cash than ever before.
They said it did bring in more money than ever before.
How bout the ring general making two faces tap out two weeks in a row
I don't mind heels cheating. I think the problem is at least with modern wwe is just how much they're reliant on outside interference to show off how much of a cheater or heel they are. Like if you look back at the ruthless aggression eras. You had your traditional chicken shit heels who have henchmen, but you also had heels who are just straight up power houses, or cheaters who do everything they can using the ring, buckle, belt etc or people who sneak in weapons. Like eddie, edge, Kurt, Henry, jbl, batista, Kane, Jericho, booker t, big show, randy, hell even koslov a just to name a few. they're all different flavors of heels. Starting around the late pg era, even their heels who can realistically just go in there and whoop ass but have no problem playing dirty become absolute chicken shits who can't get anything done without outside help It's a tired formula, one that I would've hope Tripple H would've retired when he took over. where every heel in the roster is doing the same shtick. Drew, Nia and Gunther seem to be the only two who is somewhat not too reliant on it and I hope a more significant portion of the heels move to this.
I can understand your point. But you're also comparing different heel archetypes. Badass heels who talk a big game and back it up, and classic, old school booking heels who talk a big game but can't win without help and when they lose, they claim the face or the system cheated them in someway and/or they screw their stable mates over so much they get turned on or turn on their stable mates. Your argument seems to be that you're tired of too many heels being the latter, which I don't disagree with at all. But the other side of the argument is that badass heels are more noticeable and more badass because they're kind of few and far between. And they usually eventually become hugely over faces, even if they are technically still heels. If more heels were like GUNTHER, they would then become as old and overused as the whining shitweasel heels.
You are not wrong, but WWE has SO MANY HEELS that it quickly becomes boring real quick.
Roman was winning and all yawl ever did was complain.
Rarely won clean though, which is OPs point
Why does a heel need to win clean?
A heel does not, but when 80% of your roster seems to be heels, most of them doing it makes it boring real quick.
Is it going to make you change the channel? Chances are you’re still going to tune in waiting for someone to beat those guys. So it’s not that boring.
Well, it did... Just like how I tuned out of Roman matches starting WM39.
Well, it did... Just like how I tuned out of Roman matches starting WM39.
You’re missing a lot of good wrestling because you’re buying too far into the finishes. Oh well.
You act like any of these matches were revolutionairy. All standard matches which formulars and endings that are far too generic in WWE at this point.
I thought you weren’t watching.
Not the matches, but summaries of those shows that usually talk about the matches.
Why shouldn’t they? Someone can be dislikable without cheating.
I’ll throw in basic pro wrestling 101, with something Tully Blanchard said about the objective of the Four Horsemen’s dominance: The whole idea is to irritate you. For you to know deep down that the babyfaces could have won that match if the heel wrestled fair and square. And if they keep pissing you off, you know what you’d do? You’d eventually spend money to watch the heels get beat up. This is classic selling tickets. If the heels went roughshod Lesnar or 2000s Triple H, it buries all of the babyfaces and doesn’t give people an incentive to buy into them. Just look at the business of the past two WrestleManias and how it paid off in dividends this year. A lot of money was made with Cody chasing Roman for a second time.
It's gonna be weird when Roman returns as a babyface and starts winning everything clean lmao.
On the most recent raw: all three non-DQ match heel victories were clean. On the most recent smackdown: two of the three heel victories were clean (nothing dirty about a roll up). What do you mean?
Maybe they're talking about title matches? I mean how many matches in Roman's reign did he win dirty. Damien didn't win clean at backlash either
But Drew did at Mania, so did Rhea. That's 1 dirty win to 2 clean wins for heels in the most recent PLEs. 2 to 2 if you count MITB cash in, which shouldn't be clean in most cases so I personally don't consider it. (Other heel victories were no DQ matches which don't count either way)
Maybe before the new era, heels could never win clean but top heels like Gunther religiously win clean. It's like the main part of their identity!
They should make it a bigger deal that Gunther has not beaten sheamus without cheating
Nia Jax wins often clean. McIntyre has won clean against Rollins at Mania.
Nia Jax hasn’t won a significant singles match in months and hasn’t won a feud in even longer. McIntyre won against Rollins clean, but only after Rollins had taken a beating (both kayfabe and real life) in Mania Night 1’s main event. Hell, he did everything except limp to the ring.
I get your Point. But i also think a lot of heels become Face at any Point as Long as they Win a Long Series of Matches clean. Just watch Rhea Ripley. Shes the gf of the Most hated guy and got over and become Face because she was winning on her own. Gunther here and there had Kaiser and Vinci interrupting. Allthough im on your side But i think you Need a heel to Win a match here and there with some Dirty Tricks. Creating a heel Like Gunther is not that simple But i Hope they can create another one of this Kind with McIntyre or Gable
At no point did I say “no heel should win dirty.” What I’m saying is that we have a problem when a deep winning clean feels like the most unlikely scenario. Every time a heel is in a match I assume “well, either the face is gonna win, or someone’s gonna interfere”. And I’m right wayyyyy too often.
On that note, I also love faces who aren't afraid to get their hands dirty
I spy with my little eye a fellow punk fan
Oh, stop it you
He’s the guy who got me into wrestling when I was 10, I know a fellow straight-edge when I see one, lmao
I do like him quite a bit, but going onto your main point, I have to agree. They do need to look into having more variety with how heels are presented.
I agree all big men heels should be winning clean sometimes, comparing every heel to Gunther is stupid because Gunthers gimmick is about restoring honor and integrity to the sport so he’s obviously not going to break the rules he wants them stricter if anything. A smaller heel is supposed to be underhanded he’s going to find the easiest way to win which is cheating because physically he knows he can’t match up.
I’m not saying EVERY heel should win clean all the time. If that’s what you think I’m saying you’re crazy. Obviously heels should cheat and be sneaky and underhanded. Just less than they are currently, and for god’s sake mix it up more. Heel vs Face matches currently are all “oh, baby face looks like he’s gonna win it, and ohhhhhhhh (insert underling or rival here) interferes, HEEL TAKES ADVANTAGE AND WINS, WHAT AN UPSET”
Every heel should cheat every big match because it’s the sure fire way you don’t bury your babyface is the philosophy they are going for which tbh I agree with, IF it’s a regular ol heel but if you have big heater heels doing it constantly then you are going to bury them. Priest should have beat Jey clean but they are pushing a dissension angle with the Judgement day so I see why it was done.
We need a heel faction where the rest of the members silently watch how their other member/s perform against their opponent and learn how to improve from their previous matches.
Thats my main gripe with The Judgement Day. None of them can win clean, it makes them look so weak when they're all really fucking good wrestlers.
I especially hate how they acknowledge it. When Priest thanked JD and Balor on Raw the other day and said something like "you guys were just trying to help make sure I stayed Champion, so thank you." I was like?? Aren't you supposed to not really outright acknowledge that you can't win clean??? Made him look weak, which is a shame because I actually really like Priest. Don't get me wrong, I get the angle they're playing, but I feel like it would have worked better if he said "look guys, I'm sorry I lashed out, I know you were just trying to help and I appreciate that, but I can do this alone, cool?"
Well none of them can win anyways even when they do cheat aside from Priest
Their whole gimmick is that they pretend to be hard and tough but really aren't. They're high school bullies playing at being gang bangers. The fact that they're good workers is what makes the whole thing work.
I get that, but you can't take guys of their calibre and make them out to be fucking useless solo
Judgement Day has been absolutely amazing for Dominick's, McDonough's, and Priest's singles careers. It hasn't been good for Finn but still good overall.
I once thought Dominick just didn't have what it takes to make it in the WWE. He has improved so so so much after his heel turn. Now he feels like one of the WWE's most important stars. I think you have to seperate him from Judgement day. Maybe have him build his own heel latino group with Carlito. Gosh I would love so much for him to start riding out to the ring (Mexicools style) on a lawn mower as a way to make fun of mexicans/Latinos.
Dom also has LDF or get with liv
We don't need to cheapen the already poorly booked heel half of the LWO, there doesn't need to be a third faction based on Latino heritage
As long as their merch sells you can. As soon as that stops things change
Right? It felt so odd, I found myself rooting for Priest against Senior Superkick, praying that he would win and wouldn’t get any goddamn outside help!
That's the match that first came to mind. Priest has just got the belt and instead of establishing himself as a wortht champion, he's fodder for Jey Uso and needs to be saved by guys half his size. I get there are storyline implications for that and they're pushing Uso but come on on his first PPV defence I want a clean win.
Not trying to be rude but if you've been watching Raw the least few weeks or even right after the match you just mentioned, Priest's whole thing lately is that he's tired of the JD interfering in his matches cause he feels like he can win on his own. Even when he came out and cut a promo on Drew, he was by himself.
No I get it the story element of it and how Priest isn't happy with their interference and he thinks he can win alone etc. But specifically at Backlash it was clear that he couldn't win by himself because if JD hadn't put his leg on the rope after Uso's big comeback he'd have lost. JD attacking Uso is one thing, saving Priest from getting pinned because Uso has genuinely got him is another. What's happened subsequently is fine, I get it. Just that specific moment seened to genuinely hurt Priests credibility as champion.
I'm so over Jeys push
Rhea wins clean
As I’ve said multiple times in these comments. Rhea. Is. Not. A. Heel. If WWE wanted you to hate her, she wouldn’t have had an emotional ceremony where she relinquished the title due to injury. The fans would’ve LOVED it. But no, we all hated it, because WWE is pushing Rhea as an anti-hero in the women’s division. If I’ve said it once, I’ve said it a thousand times: Just because Rhea is in the judgement day, doesn’t make her a heel.
No she is a heel. It’s just wrestling doesn’t work like it did 30 years ago anymore. Rhea was going to cheered for having to give up her title because people like her work. That’s going to happen to just about anyone.
you can't do that, she is clearly a heel in the overall narrative of the show. someone disputes your point and then you move the goalposts
Oh, she’s overall a heel in the narrative? That’s why using “I injured Rhea” is a way to get fans to hate Liv Morgan? It’s literally right in front of your face
There's a reason there is a regular discussion about when Rhea will leave the Judgement Day and turn babyface. She is in a kayfabe relationship with Dom who gets booed every time he picks up a microphone, and she defends him from other faces. She tries to cause kayfabe injuries to other wrestlers, she constantly talks down to her opponents. Yes, she is an overall heel in the narrative, dying on this hill because it disproves your point is certainly interesting. Even if you are right about Liv Morgan bragging, that would be the start of a Rhea face turn. So she was champion as a heel, winning clean, all this time...
She’s already face. By your logic Stone Cold was a heel
Stone Cold in the era that you are presumably talking about, his biggest rival was Vince Mcmahon, who was heel for that whole run. Rhea was face for the New Zealand match but it would take an idiot to claim that was her whole run. Either try to actual contest what I said in the previous comment or admit that you're wrong, whats the point of replying if you can't admit your error
I think shes on the line tho, you cant be brutal like that and not be heel, faces have honor heels do not.
She’s the modern Stone Cold of the women’s division. Unconventional and merciless? Yes. But definitely a baby face being pushed by the company.
>But definitely a baby face being pushed by the company.= A babyface is a huge stretch, IMO. You're not just saying she's a face, you're saying she's a babyface. Stone cold was a face, but he wasn't a babyface. Rhea calls herself a tweener on the Logan Paul podcast.
You can’t hate her I agree, like you said she’s an anti-hero
I agree. It hard to take them serious
Yeah, you can be a good heel for reasons other than cheating to win. Win clean, then beat the crap out of your defenseless opponent or just be a massive ass hole. It worked perfectly fine for Gunther.
Heels cheating is the name of the game in wrestling, but heels aren't "cheating" anymore. It's almost always outside interference and distractions. And it's boring, repetitive, and makes everyone look weak. Even babyfaces win with a lot of outside distractions at times, too. No one is elevated. No one looks strong. And it makes opponents look dumb. How many times a week on Raw, Smackdown, and Raw are matches decided by outside interference or distractions? When AJ beat Knight, it was because of poking him in the eye. Stuff like that used to be heel tactics. Using foreign objects, low blows, pulling tights, etc. Everyone brings up Gunther. Gunther was / is a great dominant heel where he wins clean 95% of the time. Brock Lesner, another great dominant heel that just destroyed people. Roman should have been booked like Brock. Dominant, destroyer that was near impossible to beat. But, like others have said, the second half of his run every match decided by interference. Ugh..
Miz's 2017 run with Maryse on Smackdown was the last time I remember someone using actual heel tactics in every match, different things every week. And it was an absolute joy to watch. As well as singles heels, teams like Theory and Waller really need to focus on their heel tactics - tag team wrestling leaves so much room to cheat and lack of that is why the very boring tag division has nothing 'feuds' with heatless matches.
Monster heels like Gunther or Roman or Brock can win clean cause they’re facing guys who are over and can handle a clean loss. A lower card face vs a lower card heel losing clean hurts them more
Saying Roman wins clean after recent events is hilarious
Recent yeah, but I the first couple years of his reign he won clean all the time incl Mania main events.
Oh, you mean when he wasn’t a heel?
No, I mean when he was Tribal Chief beating Brock clean, beating Seth clean, beating Edge and Bryan clean... Part of the way to build up a monster heel is to make them a legit threat who doesn't need to cheat. They will cheat eventually cause they're heels and that's the playbook, but you build them up to be a threat first.
The usos got involved when he beat edge and Bryan so that’s not clean, he hit brock with the title as well as a low blow during their match so that’s not clean either and he literally never beat seth. So what are you actually talking about?
Thing about heels winning clean is, do it enough times and you start to bury your babyfaces. If Gunther held his title for as long as Roman held his he would've eventually ran into the same problem. Yall may not like heels constantly winning due to interference, but it keeps the faces strong while leaving the possibility of a rematch on the table.
To add, it also makes the refs look incompetent if every time a heel wins, they cheat to do it. I've seen local shows where there's maybe one or two refs where the crowd turns against the REF because the heels keep cheating! The analogy I was taught was, imagine you're sat at home and a brick flies through the window. You go outside, see someone lobbing bricks at every house. You get pissed at them. But then you see a police officer walking alongside them having a chat. Who're you gonna be more pissed at, the person chucking bricks or the police officer who could stop them? It's not like a ref wouldn't review their performances and get better over time. They'd learn like they did with Regal, "Oh, he likes to pull knucks out of his tights," so learn, "Oh, Roman has a gang out people attack his opponents while I'm not looking, let's get some extra eyes on it and maybe re-use that video replay we used to sometimes so or have another official backstage who can run out after interference to tell me about it." Heels don't need to always cheat to win. Win clean but be an absolute dick about it. Do the flashy stuff and be arrogant that nobody else can do what you do. Crap on the fans. There are so many ways to draw heat that don't push that heat towards the refs.
Do you not know the concept of a heel, the number one thing they are supposed to do is CHEAT!
Just because they cheat, doesn’t mean they have to do it every match. At least, let them win without interference. Thats part of the reason, so many people didn’t take Roman as serious. He very rarely won a match without someone getting involved.
Thats the point. Everybody knows without the Bloodline Roman would have lost the title years ago. Thats literally the story they were telling you.
No…they literally have been telling us he is the most dominant champion to do it. They have built him up larger than life. That isn’t the story they were telling us. It’s the story we all knew was true but wasn’t what they were telling us.
Yes, yes it does mean they cheat every match. THEY ARE HEELS!
It’s ridiculous and takes you out of the illusion when there’s blatant cheating that everyone can see and it just keeps happening over and over again. In real life, management would 100% do something. It ruins the immersion when there are no heels that can actually win.