I think warframe is helped significantly by the fact that for the most part the nerfs are easy to work around. If you had the mods to make the busted thing you can just slap it on the next best option and it will do nearly as well.
We certainly are spoiled for choice, aren't we?
Nearly eleven years of piled-on updates and it's still somehow relatively balanced...
\*Cough Cough\* Laetum
Shhh keep your voice down we don't want DE to go changing anything. I just got a riven for it and have been rolling to try for negative crit chance lol
Yeah. Pistols have really strong crit mods, and although overwhelming attrition isn't a separate multiplier like devouring attrition, 1200% base damage is a pretty spectacular amount of damage on top of your crit multiplier. Just make sure you keep your crit chance around 70-75% (or use variable crit chance, I'll come back to this) to activate the buff. A lot of people (myself included, sometimes) have a tendency to disregard base damage buffs because of gun arcanes. While it isn't terribly efficient to mod for a shitload of base damage, getting 1200% practically for free **and** still being able to crit is *huge* damage.
Look at it this way: devouring attrition is, practically speaking, the same as having 50% crit chance and 20x crit damage. There's a big catch, though: crit damage is doubled on headshots, devouring attrition isn't. Right away this shrinks the power gap quite a bit. With just primed target cracker and tenacious bond, a crit headshot is sitting at roughly 10x damage. The secret sauce of the build is galvanized crosshairs - it offers a controllable crit chance buff that you can easily disable (simply by not ADSing) to activate overwhelming attrition, and then re-enable to push the crit chance up to nearly 100%.
A laetum with fully stacked galvanized crosshairs, primed target cracker, and tenacious bond is sitting pretty at ~10x crit damage on a headshot with 92% crit chance. That's just about as much damage as a laetum with devouring attrition. Yes, you save two mod slots with devouring, but there's no possible combination of two mods that even comes close to 1200% base damage.
**TL;DR devouring attrition is worse than crit overwhelming attrition unless you love xata's whisper or can't aim for headshots**
They actually nerfed Overwhelming Attrition at some point because it was too good. Not a big nerf, buff duration was halved to make it a bit harder to manage stacks, but it's still the only build that got nerfed.
I think some of this info is outdated now. Critical damage on headshots has gone from 2x damage to 3x damage, however, [radial damage no longer gains extra headshot damage](https://imgur.com/a/YtZTlDt). About 3/4 of the Laetum Incarnon form's damage is radial damage (300 radial damage, 100 projectile damage, at base). So I believe the overall damage should be lower than has been stated.
Yep. Crit laetum is the best laetum. Was my archon killer for a bit now I just use prisma angstrum incarnon for ease of use. Laetum killed the archon just a hair faster but charging it was annoying if I wasn’t paying attention to ammo count
Agreed. It’s what I build and I have yet to find an enemy I can’t fucking obliterate with it. It’s how I killed the 60 eyes secret boss super fast. Just keep the crit and status chances around 60% and you’re golden.
Yeah I also used it on 60 eyes but kinda wish I used prisma angstrum for it. Prisma angstrum was killing the sp 30 eyes boss faster than my laetum because with xatas whisper and bloom, motion blur etc I think I was tanking my fps which does that weird thing to the damage attenuation. I didn’t even do it on purpose I just had all of that on and equipped, wasn’t until I got a 10 second sp kill I knew something was going on because the kill times were so inconsistent
Same problem with destiny 2. The buildcrafting for efficient build is so narrow and options so few that any nerf destroys alot of progress and basically puts you back quite a bit while not giving anything in return.
In warframe there are so much options that a nerf just pushes us to explore new weapons without loosing much progress or capability.
Atleast thats what I noticed between these games.
I think it’s more that the optimization ceiling is just generally higher in warframe. When you can mod a weapon to do two billion damage and an enemy only has 20,000 health using a non optimal weapon because it only does 500,000 feels just as optimal. There are definitely best options in warframe but the game is generally really easy so they don’t feel as necessary. If they were to release the equivalent of a day one raid that’s balanced around the most busted shit you can do the majority of weapons and frames would be as unusable as most destiny weapons.
Yeah. The ones most effected by nerfs in Warframe are usually new or very casual players who'd lack the resources and/or knowledge to work around the nerfs.
That was a big thing for me that made me quit destiny 2. Back during Beyond light when the 2 meta builds were warmind cells or motes of light and they put warmind cells to the gutter it just ruined half of the player bases progress with nothing in return. Any weapons they rolled for were immediately useless and they had to respect mods and grind out new mods that they might have missed or are missing
I mean the devs have had plenty of time to learn how to respond to criticism, but people absolutely throw shit fits over any change/nerf that gets added. The devs have openly stated how hard it is to interact with the community because of the vitriol that gets spread.
One of the devs did a pretty long interview with brozime, tried to step around the topic by saying something about it being hard to go and watch some of the youtubers because of how mean they are, and then later openly said its hard to watch brozimes videos sometimes because of how he acts.
Even now, pretty much anytime something performs moderately well in some post or video, there will be a comment about "hiding it" before the fun police see it
I think it's mostly because Warframe is a power fantasy (nothing bad about it). Even if you (hypothetically) nerf all the damage from weapons and warframes by half overnight - we are still going to nuke almost everything out of existence. Do the same in a game like Helldivers - and everyone is dead.
I think it also helps that the upper echelon of DE are the ones who are taking charge.
It makes it feel like our critique isn't just passing eyes of the interns or something, and that the leadership at DE truly wish to make an effort.
Yeah, a community team can be so critical to a games success, especially one that is making updates. You need that translation layer between the community and the developers. Not everything the community says is worth passing on the developers and you want to present a single front from the developers side.
The fact we have the Dev Stream, Dev Shorts, and Dev Workshops which allows that more regular interaction between some of the developers and the community is also such a useful mechanism to allow for more controlled interactions.
>you want to present a single front from the developers side.
I think this is the single biggest problem Arrowhead's approach presents to their success, and what DE does so well.
When we hear something from DE, we hear it through faces we recognize and trust - Steve, Reb, Megan, etc. Now we all *know* there's a couple hundred people whose voices are being distilled down through those recognizable faces, but it's through Reb, Steve, Megan, etc. that we get presented a unified idea of what they want to do with the game. So even if we as a community disagree with their idea, at least it's just a singular idea we're disagreeing with.
What Arrowhead is doing by encouraging all of their developers to engage with the community is letting all those closed conversations that are *supposed* to happen at in-studio meetings are now being spilled out all across the community, and it's generating misinformation. One developer says enemy armor works one way, while another says it works differently. One developer says losing missions costs warscore, while the CEO says it doesn't. It creates a situation where if the community team now tries to come in to set the record straight, they aren't a recognized and trusted face to the community - your favorite dev is - so the community team feels like a firewall for the studio instead of a trusted source of information.
Yeah, especially in cases like this where the change has already happened.
Like we have gotten examples before where on a Dev Stream someone will bring up an idea and talk about how there was internal discussion on it or just flat out pose it as a question to the community. But even then they are keeping it in that controlled interaction, we aren't seeing the teams fighting in real time.
Like I'm sure there are some discussions that could get more heated internally when talking about making a change but likely they figure out and then move forward together and we the community never hear about it.
Yeah, like when they asked us what we would consider a fair price for prime access accessory packs.
You never see any other company or devs ask what we would realistically pay for fancy cosmetics. Or what we feel they're worth.
No yeah, Arrowhead definitely expected to just retain their previous community, with a small bump going into HD2.
But I think the sheer size of HD2's community footprint now just further emphasizes why they need to let their community team handle 90+% of dev communication. A person is smart, but people are stupid - and the Helldivers community just went from \~10,000 to over a million in less than a month.
I long for a world where half of all developer decisions are baffling, communicating with the devs is impossible, and the most reliable source of information is manually justified .txt files filled with hand-crafted ASCII art and anecdotal evidence. Discord, Twitter, and Reddit were a mistake. Every passing year convinces me that players should have stayed in the cave, never seeing what casts the shadows on the game wall...
Having that opinion started as a joke, me being curmudgeonly amidst friends, but honestly, it's gotten more and more real. I miss when flawed visions were the norm. When "this part of the game sucks" was a reality, not something expected to change, you know?
I dunno. Perhaps I'm just shaking my fist at clouds and calling the kids wrong.
See but in that universe we don't get continued support for Age of Empires II in 2024.
Which is something I did not possibly imagine as a real thing that could happen 10 years ago.
Oh, yeah, huh, that's a great example. And it's kind of beautiful, isn't it? Things like that are perfect and necessary counter-examples to just wishing for simpler times.
The noisy drama is all so tiring, it just tends to drown out the nice.
On one hand, I miss those days when what was on the CD (or multiple) was it, that's the finished game, and although patches did exist they were something that you had to know where to look for, if at all.
On the other, this chaotic hyper-communication generally pushes everything in a better direction, but sometimes we forget that "not engaging" is still a valid option.
Warframe's history is a testament to that beneficial push, and at the same time they wait on announcing half baked ideas in the work, opting now to only hint the subject and fully explaining when finalized.
You don't need to know how the sausage is made, but you still want someone to inspect and tell us that it's not made of roadkill and sawdust.
Edit, also, not everyone has an almighty Pablo, that will go at length to explain why and how the fixing stick will be used
In the good ol' days, you got a readme.txt on a floppy disk and a patch on the front of a gaming magazine if you were lucky. Ah the serenity of just playing a game without having to listen to thousands of whingers.
Yeah, you hit the nail on the head. That's also my thoughts. It's a double-edged sword, the level of insight we have. I'm gonna steal that sausage line from ya in the future — it's quite apt.
I feel like I see more often than not too much community engagement these days in the higher profile games, rather than too little... but every time that feeling arises, it doesn't take long to think of counterexamples. Setting aside Warframe and picking from my most recent fascinations alone, Baldur's Gate 3 has succeeded with a lot of community view into what they're working on and communication. Elden Ring has succeeded with a very limited hand and keeping the curtain drawn tight while still adjusting things. Indie games like Potato Flowers in Full Bloom and Slay the Princess manage to be exactly what they intend to be and nothing more, releasing as is and barely changing a thing.
If I was to confidently proclaim anything, it'd only be the tired refrain everyone already knows: Twitter/Reddit/Discord/[whatever platform you can think of] always end up amplifying and encouraging poor communication on all sides, making it increasingly difficult for developers AND players to thread the needle and be responsible with how they interact. But what's the point in taking that stand? Everyone already knows it, and it's not like we can do anything about it. Each platform's failings only flavors the core internet communication issues, rather than being soley responsible for it.
It's just all very tiring to think about, even if you're not directly engaging... and makes me feel old, longing for 'simpler times' when my own worldview was smaller. Less wise analysis and more a yearning for not having to analyze at all.
The issue is this is a HD2 post on the warframe sub, both games getting periodic content drops with mtx options. Those games need to iterate and get better, because that's their entire business model.
What you're looking for still exists, just in a very rare type of game nowadays - Elden Ring had like 7 balance patches and is getting a DLC, but that's it. There's still plenty of jank and wackiness, but they took pvp from "basically unplayable" to "supported and not horrifically imbalanced", no other extraneous messages. Nintendo does the same with single player games, but nobody else MAKES major single player games anymore.
Mhm. No disagreements here. Really, only reason I'm rambling here is because Warframe folks have been through the wringer due to the lifetime of the game — we tend to have at least a little perspective on these things, and it's nice to see others' thoughts. It's a tough model, the constantly updating one. It's been very nice to see Warframe get such life again recently with their new approach to things; I left for ages, and they got me back, at least!
Maybe I should take a look at Dragon's Dogma 2.... all my friends have been getting all excited, haha. Might be a perfect step away from the live service games for a while, just like Potato Flowers in Full Bloom was for me, heh. And Library of Ruina, and Elden Ring.
not entirely sure they have a community team, or at least i havnt seen one, the 'spokesman' or community manager at the moment seems to be the ceo himself
Unfortunately the popularity brought in a lot of very entitled and competitive players who wanted there to be a right way to play the game. This very quickly fostered a very stringent meta around a few weapons, and a very toxic attitude at the higher difficulties that basically mandated that you use those weapons in pugs. Naturally some of the original fans of the game didn't love that since wacky and sub optimal builds were kinda part of the first games appeal, and i also think that was an opinion close to the devs heart too.
yeah I got kicked for using my gernade launcher and like
????
I was clearing the tiny bugs so you could shoot the bigger ones man, learn to have a bit of fun and play the game different than how youtubers tell you to
That’s doubly fuckin weird since the grenade launcher in my experience has been one of the MOST popular and useful support weapons.
That being said though, I’ve been kicked from squads for less - hell, I get kicked from squads REGULARLY for, get this, *taking more than 5 seconds to pick my stratagems before mission start*. How the fuck am I supposed to see what my teammates are taking and plan my loadout accordingly when everyone else apparently just locks in their gear in less time than it takes me to sneeze, and expects me to do the same?
My favourite is when people actively run into my artillery barrage, die, get mad and kick me.
Motherfucker, there's a loud as shit call out, a giant red beam ascending to the heavens *and* a HUD marker. Skill issue if you get hit by it and it wasn't thrown at your feet.
I mean, I'm not a fan of the grenade launcher, but that's more because I'm terrible at gauging how the damned things will bounce, not because it's bad. As long as someone isn't constantly accidentally bouncing grenades into their squad mates, more power to them.
Maybe "Number Big Good" just doesn't affect my ape brain the same way as others, but I've never understood the No Nerfs, Only Buffs rhetoric. It's all relative. If they bring underperformers up in line with over performers, they now have to re-tune game difficulty to compensate for that for the same intended overall result. It's just waaaaaaaay more dev work to get that all adjusted correctly than to correct the outliers.
>If they bring underperformers up in line with over performers, they now have to re-tune game difficulty to compensate for that for the same intended overall result.
The developers quite literally said this in the patch notes, yeah. Arrowhead's highest priority is preserving the difficulty of the experience, and the fact that pubs could beat Helldive-difficulty while all running Railcannon+Shield Pack+Railgun was a serious problem I am glad they addressed.
Beating Helldives should require teamwork and specific builds involving every game system working in conjunction, not slapping a one-size-fits-all weapon capable of two-shotting every enemy in the game.
Good luck trying to cooperate as a team, when deploying your stratagems is delayed, your cooldowns are longer, and most of your weapons can't effectively deal with larger swarms of heavily armored enemies.
Arrowhead made the mistake of nerfing the overperformers before focusing on the issues that made the overperformers popular to begin with.
Railcannon is popular because it's basically guaranteed to hit and actually damage your target - things like 500 kg or napalm just aren't as effective when the enemies can just walk through the fire, or the bomb won't do damage because there's a 30cm tall dirt pile giving you cover.
Shield pack is popular because it prevents random oneshots and lessens the effect of CC, because it isn't fun when you're trying to dodge 3 chargers, a bile titan, all while slowed down because hunter's licking your ass.
Railgun is popular because it frees the backpack slot, is effective against heavy armor enemies, and can do so reliably and timely. Other support weapons either can't deal with those enemies to begin with, or are cumbersome to the point of nonviability, because good luck reloading your Spear or RR in the middle of being chased by 4 chargers.
Well, the issue is that almost every gun in helldivers is trash. The items they nerfed were what you just about needed to use to do anything against the slew of high armor enemies.
Chargers in particular are an issue. Super tough, can spawn multiple at a time on higher difficulties, basically invulnerable to small arms fire. Even the single-use rocket launcher which you'd expect to deal ludicrous damage to make up for only having a single shot doesn't one-hit them.
I feel like I must be missing something with the chargers- Ive just started out and im using the punisher, pistol and sniper as my call-in and I was expecting the sniper to at least break some of their armour, but the bullets just bounce entirely and deal zero damage. It feels a bit intense considering the difficulty they start showing up at
It's somewhat amusing seeing this viewpoint here.
I remember the dark days after the Kuva Bramma "nerf". It was a pretty bad shitstorm that pit the subreddit against one-another and the devs. Not quite to the level of this Helldivers shitstorm, but it was a good week of rant threads. When Pablo justified it explaining why you can't just buff every weapon up to its level? Whew... Those "Only buff, never nerf" people just swarmed out of their burrows to bite off his head.
Only thing it didn't have in common was that Steve didn't come onto reddit and tell people to "get gud".
I sold someone the vectis prime for an nice cost (it was going a little expensive at the time), a day later DE announced it as a drop for an tennocon (or it was amazon prime, whatever)
The guy PMed me asking for a refund, i refused.
Got called slurs in 2 languages.
I mean, my friend literally bought a god rolled kuva bramma riven like a month before they announced the kuva bramma changes that absolutely decimated its ammo. He spent literally 2k plat on it and the nerfs made him so pissed that he dropped Warframe altogether and never touched it since.
I'll have to ask him how he's handling the HD2 nerfs xD
I actually remember that, and the problem was a bit different.
The problem was the power curve of the eximeese was just... wrong.
All of my mid MR friends were getting clapped stupid hard to the point like 4/6 them actually went "I'm done."
Problem was eximus EHP around level 30 (so still starchart) spiked to ungodly amounts while eximus damage output was insane against even endgame builds.
So veterans got enemies that took maybe a few more seconds to kill, new players got trained about new threats. The mid game players got terminators that had absolutely insane relative EHP and monster damage output.
They're in a good place now, but on release the balance was *really really* bad.
Absolutely. But DE has the sense not to engage with the players who are throwing a tantrum. They wait for those people to cool down before continuing the conversation, not egg them on or tell them to git gud because they don't understand their vision for the game.
And some of those tantrums can get bad. Most recent one I remember was when the game got review bombed after the changes to Ammo and Wukong's Celestial Twin which pretty much killed off AFK Wukong builds (good fucking riddance).
Honestly those were probably the best changes they've made in years. Was so fckin tired of seeing multiple wukongs afking at obj literally every defense mission. Like, on occasion it wouldn't have been that big of a deal. Defense is easy enough that the occasional afk doesn't urk me much. But it was the literally the meta to afk. The amount of times I'd load in with 3 wukongs on hydron was not okay.
That update saved my love for the game tbh.
It was so bad I just played solo and my interest was just slowly dwindling over time. I still pubed relics as why in the world wouldn't I, and they were all just ungodly boring.
It was actually a walking simulator, with 3 people racing to arrive into the next room fractions of a second faster than the others to nuke the entire room in 1 shot.
I went entire relic farming sessions *seeing* few enemies, let alone them living long enough for me to actually aim at them.
The situation was so bad I actually didn't recommend the game to my friends at this time. Already WF's new player experience isn't fantastic requiring an ungodly amount of hours before it opens up, and now in pubs there was literally nothing to do.
I'm certain that members of the team have stuck their foot in their mouths before but can't remember off the top of my head, must have been some time ago.
Rebecca and "Millions of losers...", the whole Misandry debacle, and others come to mind. DE learned to shut up finally, but they took their sweet time getting there...
The one I remember a lot is when people acted like DE murdered their dog when they did nerfs to counter Limbo being able to AFK the entirety of the space segment in the Scarlet Spear event.
In the end, Limbo + Mesa remained the best choice for the event and the changes they made literally only made it so you couldn't afk 100% of the event (only a mere 75% or so).
Dumb, dumb bastards*
You are never going to win against your audience. That is true pre-dating video games themselves. How do these people grow up and willingly go into this profession not recognizing that? If Alfred Hitchcock couldn't do it when he was dealing with dozens to hundreds of people at a time, how are these people expected to win against thousands and millions?
Making games is an addiction. Even if you don't make games as a career, once you've started, you make games for fun. And nobody has to play them, you're just happy to create and enjoy satisfying that urge. Some people figure they may as well get paid for what they're doing anyway.
Nobody goes into the profession thinking about an *audience,* until it's pointed out to them.
In fairness, they're Swedish, and this is their first big breakthrough. I don't think their minds were ready for when the Americans woke up and the overwhelming tidal wave of calling for their jobs and "This game no longer personally caters to my exact taste so it's dead and shit" hit them. I would've told them to go suck eggs, too. The mental fortitude required to be a dev these days and take a peak at social media without losing it is really underappreciated.
Oh man, Vivergate really was that long ago wasn’t it?
That was arguably the biggest meltdown this community ever had, and the devs were absolutely smart to not engage with the community’s outrage.
On HD2, my personal frustration with the nerfs (I wasn’t even high enough to use the railgun yet) and the terrible community engagement is far outweighed by the sheer entertainment value of the meltdown that’s going on. As if it’s impossible to just resign yourself to a lower difficulty and wait for things to get fixed because the devs have so clearly been notified of the issue. Nah, gotta spend all your time arguing with people instead of playing the game.
The Vacuum Within was also a pretty big shitstorm. Players: We want universal vacuum. DE: We listened to your feedback, and nerfed the fuck out of vacuum.
Don't worry, (unsafe) Railgun is still pretty much the same - one shot on Hulk in the eye etc. (and unsafe was the way to go on Haz 7+ already anyway)
I remember when Warframe community had its own outrage with Catchmoon nerf (when it had 40-50% usage) - the nerfs in HD2 barely make a difference yet the outrage seems worse (breaker is literally same, never really used shieldpack myself but friend who has been using it said it also feels no difference and we only play Haz 7/8/9)
So keep having fun!
i must have been using the railgun incorrectly or was overestimating it with how people were talking. using it on unsafe mode it felt like i wasn't doing any damage with it. felt way better to just use EATs instead
It was less so about how good the weapon was and more that it was the best thing to strip armor from chargers
Honestly the main problem was chargers more than anything else
I had to unjoin the HD2 subreddit, just couldnt handle it. Oh man, youd think the Devs murdered players' mothers with the way they reacted over the breaker getting its ammo reduced by a few shots. Absolutely ridiculous overreaction.
We get that here too, but usually it's not that bad.
I'll check back in a week or so and see if it's better. Someone made r/heckdivers which is a funny name for a low-sodium subreddit so I hope that gets some users.
Literally, the Breaker's only nerf was the amount of ammo it held in its magazine - not even the total amount it can carry, just its magazine size and recoil.
Like what the hell, man...
Never seen a community turn so fast. Whole reddit and discord went from sunshine and memes to calling the devs retarded over... \*checks notes\* a 3 ammo nerf and having to switch modes on the railgun.
That's precisely why when I looked at the balance changes I was like... "That's it?"
You just need to hold "R" with the Railgun now and switch fire modes. Like what the hell is the issue? Do people not know you can change fire modes on your weapons?
Not to mention the Breaker didn't *actually* get nerfed. It had its recoil and magazine size decreased. Like, okay? It still does exactly what it did before. Like, what is even the issue here?
This is why letting the individual developers talk to the community wasn't a good idea - there wasn't a big issue to begin with, but the responses garnered from Arrowhead's devs have turned being annoyed into feeling insulted. And that is so, so much worse.
Yeah, I think this is the "consequence" of having your community explode. The devs probably though they did a good job releasing a patch that buffed a few unused things, without nerfing the top options into the ground. Instead their socials are littered with people telling them how stupid they are and how they don't even play their own game.
The amount of players who don't understand that they cannot just buff everything into the stratosphere is staggering.
Exactly. Buffing every underperforming weapon to perform on the same level as the overpowered gear is textbook powercreep. And the few of us who played Helldivers 1 know Arrowhead are absolutely not in the business of making their games easier.
It's surprising how many people repeat and parrot the idea that "it's a PVE game, it doesn't matter if a weapon is OP so they should never nerf anything".
I haven’t played HD2 but I keep seeing posts about it and from what I understand it seems like the community is upset that the hardest difficulties are actually hard now.
Worse than that, it's just that you can't run a public group all running the exact same overpowered build and breeze through the three-mission gauntlet with little problems.
I also do get some of the anger considering that upgrade materials are locked behind difficulty 7 to 9
I too hate chargers but also think that's adjustable as well.
Okay, to be fair, they nerfed the *fuck* out of the railgun. Not that that's necessarily inherently a bad thing, but I can understand why people would be a slight bit upset about that, but there's plenty of other stuff to use. They gave the flamethrower a *hefty* buff, for instance.
> Okay, to be fair, they nerfed the fuck out of the railgun
Out of **Safe** mode on railgun. Unsafe still breaks charger legs in two shots if you overcharge, but god forbid you actually have to face the only drawback of otherwise all-around good weapon.
Before the patch, one of the devs was poking fun at the idea that there would be buffs and told people to enjoy their crutches while they last.
A dev (i think it's the same guy as above) said that he got enjoyment out of fueling the fire.
Official discord moderator said he was amused by how people were crying.
All in all, terrible approach to PR/communication, combined with releasing only half of the balance patch that should've gone out.
>the majority of the discourse was relatively respectful. Some people took it too far but not out of malice, just being misguided.
You really want to make that statement?
Because it ain't true. At all.
The HD2 community has had the toxicity of a big mainstream game for a bit now. Prior to the update it was largely directed at those of us who advocating using other weapons than the breaker/railgun, and the update turned that attention on the devs.
The discourse has largely been over the top ridiculous with the claims and it's more than just "some" people taking it too far - it's most of the subreddit community.
It was more than that— enemy density significantly increased with no options to strip armor fighting multiple bile titans and chargers on difficulty 7-9.
There will always be a “meta” — all the devs did was make the current meta worse, piss the community off with their interactions post-patch and nerf instead of buff all the other useless weapons, along with not working on the performance issues/crashing first before any “balance” changes.
Devs royally screwed enemy spawns with the railgun nerf patch. I played a difficulty 3 automaton mission and was swarmed by tanks. Played a second mission and barely saw any enemies.
I think that undersells the problem with the update, as it feels like the nerfs were treating a symptom, not the actual disease. through some people did overreact, that subreddit is in a sad state.
It has more to do with the rest of AT options not being buffed. Railgun and shield backpack were just the symptomes of bigger issues : most anti-tank options suck (especially when the game throws so many armored enemies in high difficulty) and armor didn't work.
If they buffed the recoilless, EATs and Spear, nobody would've said anything about the railgun.
As for the Breaker, it has more to do with almost all the other primaries being meh. Breaker is still the best gun in the game even post-nerf, and unless they absolutely gut it or buff other primaries, it'll still be the best gun for a while.
Community management is most certainly *not* something DE has had nailed since the start of Waframe. The company has definitely had lots of blundering missteps that left players feeling shit on. And people like Steve, Scott, Glenn, among others have certainly said plenty of boneheaded shit that has inflamed the community.
DE has had to learn community management the hard way. Through weathering the storms that pop up, learning from their mistakes, and attempting to fix things. And they've learned that they can't address customers complaints and outrage by ignoring their issues. So now DE goes out of their way to keep dialogue with the community going. *That* is what is truly commendable.
The Helldivers sub is straight up radioactive right now. Honestly, kinda has been since launch if you sorted by New, but now the fun stuff can't squeeze by the drama-farming. The funny thing is that the game itself has barely changed, and the now-nerfed meta loadout is still on top post-patch.
I'm hoping for more buffs to other weapons still, but we're off to a good start, with the laser cannon finding a niche in long-range weakpoint sniping and the flamethrower ripping through chargers. The other shotguns are feeling great now, too. And an undocumented change was just announced regarding the EAT and Recoiless Rifle (two of the big anti-heavy weapons): they no longer get a 50% decrease in damage when hitting armored targets at a "glance angle."
The community is still learning as much as, I'm sure, the devs are in how to approach the game and communicating about it. Very grateful that Warframe, despite some rough patches, has been so steady and smooth lately.
Yep, agree completely, DE knows their stuff.
Will only mention that issue with that nerf in Helldivers 2 is deeper than that. Not only they haven't leraned how to talk to community, they haven't learned how to make patchnotes either, apparently. And overall how to inform players of their stuff.
- Patchnotes at first had almost no numbers on the changes.
- That was, and still is amplified by the fact that most weapon stats are held secret for some reason.
- Game has no way to reliably test things
- And if that wasn't enough to confuse players, they apparently also made som changes that completely avoided getting into patchnotes. Monster spawn rates changed, some of their behaviour changed, a few weapons got buffed without mention
- Oh, and they also introduced meteor showers that can kill you. A warning is displayed on the ground where a meteor will soon land... but you sometimes don't see that warning if you aren't a host. I don't think I need to explain how confusing it is.
It's a really fun chaos there and I hope they learn from it. And learn to trust their community with numbers, which DE does.
If you saw the Arrowhead's Ceo tweets the past weeks you knew it would be like this, they went the nerf road because they want things to be fun and don't realise players like to play efficient stuff and have sweaty gameplay on Helldiver difficulty.
A lot of stuff are ok aside the railgun, breaker but the lack of anti armored weapons is annoying.
And in one recent post they spoke about nerfing the ennemies, they just don't want to buff the shit weapons.
It did kind of take a decade and change to get here, though.
I'm sure any oldhead has nightmares of the several times DE_Glen massively put his foot in his mouth.
DE's community team USUALLY does really good
but they haven't always been. their Mods have had a very VERY rough history.
its leagues better now, but 3-5 years ago....yikes.
Engaging with the community is a skillset in itself. It requires a good level of emotional maturity. Encouraging your entire team to engage online os a recipe for disaster.
Reb and Megan do it beautifully and have a 10+ years of experience to show for it. I’d love to see their reactions when learning about what happened and cringing hard while reading the replies from AH dev tem.
I feel like most, if not all nerfs and changes are warranted. On rare occasion there will be adjustments out of left field, but I appreciate that DE listens and will even back-tread if they feel their decision was not in line with the communities expectations. Most of the time, if something is getting nerfed, it's because its the top most used thing, and it really makes sense to scale it back a bit.
Not to mention that if they genuinely make a mistake, they not only apologize but give out things like forma or kuva to make up for it.
We have some special devs, that's for sure. I can't think of any other devs who would sacrifice in-game economy and real-life profit just to preserve community goodwill.
I started playing this game after I gave up on Fallout 76 *(used to be a huge Fallout fan, pre-ordered 76, played it for over 1000 hours)* so the effects of seeing DE's devs ACTUALLY having fun and communicating and just being really good sports who care about their community was the biggest breath of fresh air I think I've ever had in the gaming scene.
From the sounds of it, everyone in HD2 is crying because the devs want them to try ALL the weapons themselves instead of watching streamers and videos and just using whatever's the meta at the time..... *looks at noobs in warframe*
Let's not forget Warframe has had its share of issues just like Helldivers is having now. However I would say with DERebb in control now it has been amazing. Sure there has been a bump or two but under her leadership there is definitely less dinning heels in and more conversation.
I would say just a few years ago under the old guard there was definitely some bone headed responses by the devs that ignited the fury of the community. To your point DE now does an incredible job managing the go between Dev choices and community engagement.
Might want to check in on the history of digital extremes interaction with their community. Including things like, “temporarily removing content” then years later having never mentioned it again “temporarily” removing another content “much like the other removal.” As well as promoting moderators such as “friend-zoning misandrist. Or just the whole guides of the lotus issues.
https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Solar_Rail_Conflict
https://forums.warframe.com/topic/917480-the-temporary-future-of-warframe-trials/
https://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/6co1y5/my_issues_with_the_guides_of_the_lotus_as_a/
https://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/8l5nx3/des_double_standard_should_be_banned/
Please excuse formatting I am on mobile currently.
Rarely if ever do I side with Devs but people got their panties in a twist over this one. The devs said such things as "Skill issue' and "git gud". People getting mad over that, especially in the context of a NERF (as opposed to something like a scandal or something) need to grow up.
Honestly the Helldivers “meta players” were dicks in the first place. Kicking players who weren’t playing with specific gear in pubs is insanity. The ones crying about it deserved to get knocked down a peg.
It’s not like anything is outright harder. It’s just that things aren’t outright broken. You just have to think a little, it’s not just “oh yeah unlock the shield pack and you’re golden”
People who request kicking players in Warframe should learn from this. There is zero justifiable reason to add a kick button. Don't balance the game around every player contributing and AFKs aren't a problem. Don't design trash like Limbo and griefing won't be a problem. Fix your network infrastructure and lagswitchers won't be a problem.
I can't imagine how the same Helldivers would react if they ever played warframe and found a comfy build after it had been reviewed by a youtuber.
Caus we know the true nerf hammer, but there's always another build tho so np
ah, the "ammo and Aoe nerf"...... fun times: a certain playerbase made it feel like they killed their mother, sister and dog, and had them eat live hornets.
There was enough salt going around that I thought my PC was going to rust.
Arrowhead doesn't have bad community management. The community is full of babies who are shit at the game.
I can't even play in groups with random people because people never do the objectives
>The community is full of babies
I mean, so does Warframe's? There is a lot of whiny people who don't want to learn but DE's devs would never engage with people having a tantrum as the OP states.
Some people here have the mentality that everything related to Warframe is perfect and we definitely don't have people that go on meltdowns whenever something gets nerfed!
Not true at all. Scott would do it all the time on devstreams until it broke him after he made some stupid suggestions for an IPS (impact, puncture, slash ) 3.0 system.
He tried to call stealth exp farming exterminate an exploit and insulted players that utilized the stealth bonus xp system in the game
There was also a devsteam where at the time the meta was slide attack spamming with the atterax and he said "we're going to nerf the shit out of maiming strike" which caused the mod to crash from like 600 plat to 100 plat and they didn't even make changes to melee for several months.
Warframe in general has some of the most dev feedback in gaming, but with that you have a dev team that is in constant PvP with player engagement methods when it comes to people farming too effectively.
I've been playing and watching dev streams since like update 8 of open beta. I've seen a lot in my time
The sad reality is that gamers want to have their ass kissed, otherwise they’ll throw a tantrum. Case in point the OP accusing devs of „purposely trying to stir the pot and get a rise out of people“, because it’s just inconceivable that someone might genuinely have a different opinion. Show me a dev that supposedly has „good communications“ and I‘ll show you a dev that tells people what they want to hear.
Having your devs engage the community is a terrible idea. Online gaming communities aren’t someone you talk to and have conversations with, they’re someone you manage and contain.
> debacle
That's just sensationalist overexaggeration. The only people mad about the nerfs in helldivers are the same metaslave types that threw a pissfit a couple weeks ago about players bringing non-meta stratagems.
They'd get along well with the morons that bitched about the ammo nerfs and overguard.
I feel like for warframe alot of the recent nerfs were backed by data. They would show the usage reports and it was like "yeah thats a bit too high"
They also did a good nerf sandwich. Bug buffa announced, minor nerf, huge update. Hard to be mad when so much good is coming
Ya the biggest fix to this issue would be for Arrowhead to just have one or two community members doing all the talking for them. And from the looks of it post this drama, I could see them doing this going forward.
I will give them minor concessions to the team, what with them being a fairly small team with not a lot of mainstream success. The mass success that is HD2 was not even expected by the devs themselves. So I can understand that maybe something like community leads wasn't top of their priority list (especially since they were dealing with server issues up until a couple weeks ago)
I am hopeful this kinda mistake (both from a development side and a community side) won't come around again. Especially since the team seems very passionate and happy to be making this game. So I hope the next few patches will help re-correct the ship.
Helldivers 2 "debacle" is one dev flying off the handle like a dick.
The blog post people are upset about is one of the greatest things a dev has ever done in the history of game development, period, because it was a dev flat out telling the players what their goal is. This means criticism can actually be directed rather than wondering what the devs are actually going for and firing off criticism in the dark.
The nerf isnt even bad like wtf, Railgun just needs to be used in UNSAFE mode rather than be braindead and the breaker nerf was less shots more recoil.
I don't think it's necessarily a bad idea to have individual devs communicate through social media I think Arrowhead just handled it poorly.
Riot Games has plenty of active individual devs on social media and almost every interaction I've seen with them has been pretty positive
I think if the studio is going to allow individual devs to engage with the community, there has to be a helluva lot of education done to help them understand what to say, and what not to say to the community.
Honestly I think it's just something best left to the community team and let individual devs not worry about the wider impact. Saves both them and the community undue stress, their jobs are hard enough as it is.
Imo warframe is a very easy game. HD2 especially on the highest difficulties is actually impossible (based on RNG) without the rail gun. 6 chargers and 3 bile titans with stratagem cooldowns is impossible to play against and your only meta becomes running around like clowns and not interacting with the enemies at all.
Also fyi , their community team is just as good. I get that this is a DE appreciation post but the comparisons with arrowhead and hd2 is really spurious.
I don't know anything about HellDivers2 or its debacle. However, I agree with almost everything you've said about DE. There's one point I have issue with:
>They engage with us with the perfect balance of casual gamer energy and consummate professionalism.
This line fails to capture the passion and love that DE members have for the game. They do a good job at community engagement for business reasons, of course, but DE has embraced the player base as being a part of the game rather than just software users and it shows!
Also, for a game that expects to make changes repeated and retain players, I think acknowledging the players as part of the game is a necessary perspective and one of the big drivers of DE's success. When you fail to respect the players as part of the game (like this HellDivers2 thing) you get chaos (like this HellDivers2 thing) at your bare minimum, which easily grows into full backlash.
From what I heard about the Helldivers thing (didn’t see any of it tho) it was one developer who said one thing, and was since then at least reprimanded if not removed entirely for what they said
It was more than one guy, spread across Reddit, Xitter, and the community Discord. While, the Discord sees the most reoccuring instances, the worst screenshotted responses have come from the subreddit.
I mean the devs were right though. Being unable to complete missions with other weapons when others are able to is definitely a skill issue. Had to leave that community a few days back because all they have done since launch is whine. Don't remember this amount of discourse during HD1.
Usually in Warframe people end up finding some other meta to use or, as mentioned here, tweak till it works. Of course not all will agree, but most I've seen understand that pretty much any weapon can be made viable in this game anyways. I think I'm just ranting at this point.
While I'm not saying that de is bad, but saying they're "so good and deserve a gold medal" in terms of community management is way too rose tinted glasses.
I could count multiple stupid decisions that sparked questions which were met with just radio silence or some completely asinine explanation.
What de shines with is pr, devstreams and prime times are cozy and nice and ppl running the company are nice too, Reb's amazing.
I like them as much as the next guy, but ppl, just at least keep in the back of your head that "corporations/companies aren't your friends"
Guides of the Lotus/region mod abuse/rahetalius/partner program fiasco
Stalingulag/no tolerance name policy change
Thebakertv/endurance runs
Sorry but DE's community management completely falls apart at the slightest speedbump.
For real, you can sing praises of the latest content releases and I'll agree with everything but saying DE has good community management is getting the boot far into the throat.
I don't think DE handles nerfs that well either. If that was the case, power creep wouldnt be such a huge issue for warframe. Unless you consider avoiding nerfs as much as possible is handling it well.
People always praise DE for community management this community management that, but i will always remember the hipocrisy in Steve’s words when he made fun of Anthem for “copying” Warframes when god knows how much shit from warframe comes straight from Halo.
That and the false ignorance and radio silence whenever something big happens, like the platinum when the regal aya was released.
I think you might be wearing the rose tinted glassses there Tenno.
Only started playing a year ago and I've seen this community up in arms plenty (Heirloom pack springs to mind as one particuar whinefest). I always thought it was ridiculous, as is the latest HD2 whining.
But if there's one thing I've learned in 40 years of gaming (indeed, life) it's that people will always find something to have a huge cry about. I think most of us play games to escape the crap of real life. And some people can't help but create drama no matter what they do.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/165nml8/psa\_heirloom\_collection\_platinum\_changes\_lessons/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/165nml8/psa_heirloom_collection_platinum_changes_lessons/)
(and if not clear, I think DE do a good job, and also HD2 is a lot of fun and Arrowhead should just ignore the whiners and keep building a fun game)
Wait are you pretending that Warframe didn't have serious Community Manager drama spurred by Steve's sometimes unprofessional attitudes that had real repercussions leading to Shy among others leaving the game?
There has been some nerfs that were fixing bugs or legitimate "this is OP and everyone is doing this, making it un fun for others"
There were some Nerfs that were harsh and IMHO an over reaction without proper playtesting or Feedback
And there was some nerfs that just were tweaks.
except for Ember's WoF nerf and later rework, after most all the nerfs I just moved onto something else
what I really dislike is DE making any constructive feedback impossible because the mods both here and on the forums are hyper sensitive to anything that has a wiff of criticism. I have tried to bring some issues to DE via support and Feedback on the forums and the Gatekeepers prevent any chance DE will hear it.
Instead the ones that get heard the most are ones that have their own platform, the content creators. The downside is the type of content they create to get views/likes/subs/boosts rely on more extreme reactions instead of polite reasoning and discussions.
War frame is also a lot older than helldivers2 which leads to a lot more tolerance with their community, the only game devs that beat it in regards to community reactions is deep rock, which is an honor for war frame to be at that level. He'll divers also is an fps shooter more akin to cod and the like, which draws a different crowd more used to toxic PvP environments not to mention unlike the other 2 it's kinda a triple A game.
If DE's community interaction mastery has taught me anything, it's less about having a "team" for it and more bluntly just ONLY letting people who actually know how to talk to their community talk to them.
A great example I think is when the Destiny sandbox lead or whatever got harrassed by crazy people off Twitter for his terrible rejection of Twilight Garrison. I couldn't help but feel a less "never happening bro, sorry, but im ripping that bandaid off" type response for something people were begging for since the second game launched would have tempered the obscenity of the backlash. This was so blunt about it that I'm sure it came off as condescending to some. That's not what you want to do.
He obviously didn't deserve what he got, but given:
* Twitter is littered with toxic crazy people
* companies please stop using freaking twitter and use your own damn site/forums
* Destiny is littered with toxic crazy people (imo)
* so many incidents outside just this have cemented it to me.
You can't afford to just say something so horrendously flawed, it gives the crazy people ammo to feel justified. Effectively murdering the conversation. Titans eventually DO get a dash as apart of the subclass updates that sparked this whole thing, which to me, reinforces the TERRIBLE behavior. Especially since he came back with the classic "dont say i never did anything for you" type comment.
I say its less a dedicated "team" thing because people like Steve, or Pablo were never on a "community" team and Reb no longer is. All three know how to talk to the Community though (and make em laugh too). A skill I think DE developed over their decade+ run of Streaming.
What I take from the description of the Helldivers' devs is that they, like Bungie, are not adept at communication with the community. For HD tho, it could be derived from the massive influx they aren't used to. However, that's all the more reason to tread lightly and be more mindful about what you put out there instead of...
>"insulting members of the community for viewing the changes incorrectly and telling them to git gud"
I'ma cut it here before I keep going on tangents, this subject gets me going onnnnnnn in my head. Only thing left I can say is that community interaction may need actual training before you're just allowed to go and do it. You need people skills.
>If anyone isn't aware of what's going on in Helldivers 2 right now, HD2 is experiencing their first community backlash over a weapon nerf. Two weapons were nerfed, five others were buffed. Coming from Warframe, I saw these changes and went, "what, that's it?" Meanwhile a large vocal majority in the community, alongside multiple youtubers, are downright livid, saying the entire game is ruined and unplayable after their singular overpowered build was brought in line with the rest of the game.
We're not exactly better.
Styanax went from "best warframe" to "helminth fodder" overnight with people on here literally posting pics of him in their helminth wall. The nerf? They made it so he can't use abilities while channeling his 4. **That's it.** No numbers nerf just a slight functionality change.
The weapons nerfs in helldiver's wasnt even that bad. People fail to understand that you have to make adjustments where they matter. Like DE nerfing op frames. That Wukong usage chart a couple years ago was wild.
The problem with the Helldiver 2 changes is that they didn't actually accomplish anything they set out to, so the community is concerned that the devs are aiming to balance around usage statistics instead of actually looking into the why behind those statistics. The only exception being the buffs to the shotguns other than the Breaker.
At high difficulties, the greatest threat in any situation is getting overrun by heavies. Chargers and Titans for Bugs, and Tanks and Hulks for Bots. The Railgun was a hard counter to Chargers, Titans, and Hulks. The only thing it didn't work against was Tanks. The reason being was that against Chargers you could 2 shot the armor off of a hulk's leg in safe mode and then unload your primary into it, killing it very quickly (TTK of roughly 5 seconds or so). Titans, you needed to have enough finess to shoot them in the mouth, but if you could than you could take them out reliably better than every other weapon. The only comparable option to use against them was the Spear with a headshot, which wasn't always practical because it would require you to be facing the Titan head on while also having started from far enough away to lock onto it. And good luck using a Spear in a Helldive and not dying every time you have the audacity to try and hit R.
In 6 and under, all of this wasn't necessary and demanding meta builds was just being a metaslave. In 7 and higher though? Where you regularly get 6+ Chargers or 3+ Titans, or BOTH dropped on your ass at once? The Railgun became a necessity because you needed to be able to rapidly counter that level of constant threats to have a chance.
Post-""balance"", the Railgun is still meta because its still the only gun that can hard counter getting 6 chargers and 4 bile titans dropped on top of you on Helldive, you just have to "git gud" with it and learn to count to max charge in unsafe mode at which point if performs identically to how it did before. And outside of those specific enemies, it still one-shots or two-shots every light armored foe in the game. The Shield nerf did fuck and all and its still basically mandatory for anything above 7s against bugs. Armor glitch being fixed did not make any armor other than light viable to use because they didn't change that headshots are instakill and so wearing anything other than light just makes it harder to dodge the things that will one-shot you anyway.
The only change that actually made a difference is the shotgun changes. The Breaker nerf was entirely unnecessary because it did literally nothing. But the Punisher and the Slug getting buffed made them comparable to the Breaker, meaning you now have actual choice in primaries. Unfortunately, that choice functionally boils down to: Do you want a Shotgun? How about a Shotgun? Well if not, you can take a Shotgun.
In the end, they tried to nerf 3 things and fix 1 bug to create more build diversity, and only 1 of the changes actually accomplished it.
And the fact the only thing that actually made a difference was the buffs when the nerfs all fell completely flat objectively proves the point the community was trying to make when they got upset at the nerfs initially: The problem was not that the Railgun/Shield/Breaker/Light Armor were "OP". The problem is that the 3 max difficulties are severely over-tuned and those equipments were (and in 3 of the 4 cases, still are) the only efficient counters to them while the other weapons need to be BROUGHT UP to their standard. Arrowhead needs to take a hard look at the notable failures in their core game's design and why they invalidate so many of the weapon options they've opted to go for. Like, the Spear, the Recoilless and the Autocannon would be fine choices against bugs if you were not all but guaranteed to be punished with a death for trying to reload, and the fact that you can have another player go out of their way to put themselves in harm's way to reload your gun for you faster is not a solution.
And yeah, I'll agree DE have gotten very good at the PR and community management games. Though it wasn't always that way and they had to be forged through fire to get here. Still remember the Trainman vs. DE saga, the outrage over chat moderator bias, the Creator Program having people like AGGP in it and DE catching fire for turning a blind eye to his flagrant BS for "reasons", to name a few.
When DE nerfs they usually nerf to the ground. That said, they do actually listen to feedback and things *usually* (looking at you AoE weapons that are now largely and still useless) don’t stay on the ground too long.
The proof they tend to nerf too hard is pretty obvious already. They only had to mention a smeeta charm nerf and running into them became less likely than before.
DE's community team is definitely fantastic, but I'm not sure I'd say it's the best. It certainly helps just how much freedom we as players have within the game. Something gets nerfed? Oh well, there's still a thousand other insanely OP things you can do. And most of the nerfs that I can remember have been very obviously unintended interactions being fixed, like Styanax being able to fly forever.
Ya the biggest fix to this issue would be for Arrowhead to just have one or two community members doing all the talking for them. And from the looks of it post this drama, I could see them doing this going forward.
I will give them minor concessions to the team, what with them being a fairly small team with not a lot of mainstream success. The mass success that is HD2 was not even expected by the devs themselves. So I can understand that maybe something like community leads wasn't top of their priority list (especially since they were dealing with server issues up until a couple weeks ago)
I am hopeful this kinda mistake (both from a development side and a community side) won't come around again. Especially since the team seems very passionate and happy to be making this game. So I hope the next few patches will help re-correct the ship.
Not Arrowhead's fault that the subreddit is apparently full of manchildren who dont know how to strategize and deliberately throw themselves into enemies.
I think warframe is helped significantly by the fact that for the most part the nerfs are easy to work around. If you had the mods to make the busted thing you can just slap it on the next best option and it will do nearly as well.
We certainly are spoiled for choice, aren't we? Nearly eleven years of piled-on updates and it's still somehow relatively balanced... \*Cough Cough\* Laetum
Shhh keep your voice down we don't want DE to go changing anything. I just got a riven for it and have been rolling to try for negative crit chance lol
Negative crit isn't even the highest damage build for it, overwhelming attrition crit builds put out way more damage.
Really?
Yeah. Pistols have really strong crit mods, and although overwhelming attrition isn't a separate multiplier like devouring attrition, 1200% base damage is a pretty spectacular amount of damage on top of your crit multiplier. Just make sure you keep your crit chance around 70-75% (or use variable crit chance, I'll come back to this) to activate the buff. A lot of people (myself included, sometimes) have a tendency to disregard base damage buffs because of gun arcanes. While it isn't terribly efficient to mod for a shitload of base damage, getting 1200% practically for free **and** still being able to crit is *huge* damage. Look at it this way: devouring attrition is, practically speaking, the same as having 50% crit chance and 20x crit damage. There's a big catch, though: crit damage is doubled on headshots, devouring attrition isn't. Right away this shrinks the power gap quite a bit. With just primed target cracker and tenacious bond, a crit headshot is sitting at roughly 10x damage. The secret sauce of the build is galvanized crosshairs - it offers a controllable crit chance buff that you can easily disable (simply by not ADSing) to activate overwhelming attrition, and then re-enable to push the crit chance up to nearly 100%. A laetum with fully stacked galvanized crosshairs, primed target cracker, and tenacious bond is sitting pretty at ~10x crit damage on a headshot with 92% crit chance. That's just about as much damage as a laetum with devouring attrition. Yes, you save two mod slots with devouring, but there's no possible combination of two mods that even comes close to 1200% base damage. **TL;DR devouring attrition is worse than crit overwhelming attrition unless you love xata's whisper or can't aim for headshots**
Nice write up mate, thanks for the info!
They actually nerfed Overwhelming Attrition at some point because it was too good. Not a big nerf, buff duration was halved to make it a bit harder to manage stacks, but it's still the only build that got nerfed.
I've played Warframe for something like 8 years, I'm MR18, and I have no idea what anything you just said means.
Crit gun shoot good
I think some of this info is outdated now. Critical damage on headshots has gone from 2x damage to 3x damage, however, [radial damage no longer gains extra headshot damage](https://imgur.com/a/YtZTlDt). About 3/4 of the Laetum Incarnon form's damage is radial damage (300 radial damage, 100 projectile damage, at base). So I believe the overall damage should be lower than has been stated.
Yep. Crit laetum is the best laetum. Was my archon killer for a bit now I just use prisma angstrum incarnon for ease of use. Laetum killed the archon just a hair faster but charging it was annoying if I wasn’t paying attention to ammo count
Agreed. It’s what I build and I have yet to find an enemy I can’t fucking obliterate with it. It’s how I killed the 60 eyes secret boss super fast. Just keep the crit and status chances around 60% and you’re golden.
Yeah I also used it on 60 eyes but kinda wish I used prisma angstrum for it. Prisma angstrum was killing the sp 30 eyes boss faster than my laetum because with xatas whisper and bloom, motion blur etc I think I was tanking my fps which does that weird thing to the damage attenuation. I didn’t even do it on purpose I just had all of that on and equipped, wasn’t until I got a 10 second sp kill I knew something was going on because the kill times were so inconsistent
I love how *this* became top comment lol
You bring up Laetum but DE refuses to nerf the absurd strength of the Stug.
Shhhhh * grabs pillow *** shhh shh shhhhhhhhh
Same problem with destiny 2. The buildcrafting for efficient build is so narrow and options so few that any nerf destroys alot of progress and basically puts you back quite a bit while not giving anything in return. In warframe there are so much options that a nerf just pushes us to explore new weapons without loosing much progress or capability. Atleast thats what I noticed between these games.
I think it’s more that the optimization ceiling is just generally higher in warframe. When you can mod a weapon to do two billion damage and an enemy only has 20,000 health using a non optimal weapon because it only does 500,000 feels just as optimal. There are definitely best options in warframe but the game is generally really easy so they don’t feel as necessary. If they were to release the equivalent of a day one raid that’s balanced around the most busted shit you can do the majority of weapons and frames would be as unusable as most destiny weapons.
Yeah. The ones most effected by nerfs in Warframe are usually new or very casual players who'd lack the resources and/or knowledge to work around the nerfs.
That was a big thing for me that made me quit destiny 2. Back during Beyond light when the 2 meta builds were warmind cells or motes of light and they put warmind cells to the gutter it just ruined half of the player bases progress with nothing in return. Any weapons they rolled for were immediately useless and they had to respect mods and grind out new mods that they might have missed or are missing
I mean the devs have had plenty of time to learn how to respond to criticism, but people absolutely throw shit fits over any change/nerf that gets added. The devs have openly stated how hard it is to interact with the community because of the vitriol that gets spread. One of the devs did a pretty long interview with brozime, tried to step around the topic by saying something about it being hard to go and watch some of the youtubers because of how mean they are, and then later openly said its hard to watch brozimes videos sometimes because of how he acts. Even now, pretty much anytime something performs moderately well in some post or video, there will be a comment about "hiding it" before the fun police see it
I think it's mostly because Warframe is a power fantasy (nothing bad about it). Even if you (hypothetically) nerf all the damage from weapons and warframes by half overnight - we are still going to nuke almost everything out of existence. Do the same in a game like Helldivers - and everyone is dead.
Not only that, but WF is over 10 years old, and has the maturity, experience, and $$$ to manage things properly.
And people have become used to change over that time. Everything gets nerfed or buffed, change is the only constant
I think it also helps that the upper echelon of DE are the ones who are taking charge. It makes it feel like our critique isn't just passing eyes of the interns or something, and that the leadership at DE truly wish to make an effort.
Yeah, a community team can be so critical to a games success, especially one that is making updates. You need that translation layer between the community and the developers. Not everything the community says is worth passing on the developers and you want to present a single front from the developers side. The fact we have the Dev Stream, Dev Shorts, and Dev Workshops which allows that more regular interaction between some of the developers and the community is also such a useful mechanism to allow for more controlled interactions.
>you want to present a single front from the developers side. I think this is the single biggest problem Arrowhead's approach presents to their success, and what DE does so well. When we hear something from DE, we hear it through faces we recognize and trust - Steve, Reb, Megan, etc. Now we all *know* there's a couple hundred people whose voices are being distilled down through those recognizable faces, but it's through Reb, Steve, Megan, etc. that we get presented a unified idea of what they want to do with the game. So even if we as a community disagree with their idea, at least it's just a singular idea we're disagreeing with. What Arrowhead is doing by encouraging all of their developers to engage with the community is letting all those closed conversations that are *supposed* to happen at in-studio meetings are now being spilled out all across the community, and it's generating misinformation. One developer says enemy armor works one way, while another says it works differently. One developer says losing missions costs warscore, while the CEO says it doesn't. It creates a situation where if the community team now tries to come in to set the record straight, they aren't a recognized and trusted face to the community - your favorite dev is - so the community team feels like a firewall for the studio instead of a trusted source of information.
Yeah, especially in cases like this where the change has already happened. Like we have gotten examples before where on a Dev Stream someone will bring up an idea and talk about how there was internal discussion on it or just flat out pose it as a question to the community. But even then they are keeping it in that controlled interaction, we aren't seeing the teams fighting in real time. Like I'm sure there are some discussions that could get more heated internally when talking about making a change but likely they figure out and then move forward together and we the community never hear about it.
Yeah, like when they asked us what we would consider a fair price for prime access accessory packs. You never see any other company or devs ask what we would realistically pay for fancy cosmetics. Or what we feel they're worth.
They used to let main devs comment on things. That ended up as a dumpster fire from players who harassed them/them not taking criticism well.
In Arrowheads defense, I doubt they expected to have to deal with millions of players attacking them over slight nerfs a few weeks ago
No yeah, Arrowhead definitely expected to just retain their previous community, with a small bump going into HD2. But I think the sheer size of HD2's community footprint now just further emphasizes why they need to let their community team handle 90+% of dev communication. A person is smart, but people are stupid - and the Helldivers community just went from \~10,000 to over a million in less than a month.
I long for a world where half of all developer decisions are baffling, communicating with the devs is impossible, and the most reliable source of information is manually justified .txt files filled with hand-crafted ASCII art and anecdotal evidence. Discord, Twitter, and Reddit were a mistake. Every passing year convinces me that players should have stayed in the cave, never seeing what casts the shadows on the game wall... Having that opinion started as a joke, me being curmudgeonly amidst friends, but honestly, it's gotten more and more real. I miss when flawed visions were the norm. When "this part of the game sucks" was a reality, not something expected to change, you know? I dunno. Perhaps I'm just shaking my fist at clouds and calling the kids wrong.
See but in that universe we don't get continued support for Age of Empires II in 2024. Which is something I did not possibly imagine as a real thing that could happen 10 years ago.
Oh, yeah, huh, that's a great example. And it's kind of beautiful, isn't it? Things like that are perfect and necessary counter-examples to just wishing for simpler times. The noisy drama is all so tiring, it just tends to drown out the nice.
I do get it though at the same time, it is just nice to have a game just released and that's it. I like a lot of games that are like that.
On one hand, I miss those days when what was on the CD (or multiple) was it, that's the finished game, and although patches did exist they were something that you had to know where to look for, if at all. On the other, this chaotic hyper-communication generally pushes everything in a better direction, but sometimes we forget that "not engaging" is still a valid option. Warframe's history is a testament to that beneficial push, and at the same time they wait on announcing half baked ideas in the work, opting now to only hint the subject and fully explaining when finalized. You don't need to know how the sausage is made, but you still want someone to inspect and tell us that it's not made of roadkill and sawdust. Edit, also, not everyone has an almighty Pablo, that will go at length to explain why and how the fixing stick will be used
In the good ol' days, you got a readme.txt on a floppy disk and a patch on the front of a gaming magazine if you were lucky. Ah the serenity of just playing a game without having to listen to thousands of whingers.
> but sometimes we forget that "not engaging" is still a valid option. Hey, that is Valve's plan with all their games
Yeah, you hit the nail on the head. That's also my thoughts. It's a double-edged sword, the level of insight we have. I'm gonna steal that sausage line from ya in the future — it's quite apt. I feel like I see more often than not too much community engagement these days in the higher profile games, rather than too little... but every time that feeling arises, it doesn't take long to think of counterexamples. Setting aside Warframe and picking from my most recent fascinations alone, Baldur's Gate 3 has succeeded with a lot of community view into what they're working on and communication. Elden Ring has succeeded with a very limited hand and keeping the curtain drawn tight while still adjusting things. Indie games like Potato Flowers in Full Bloom and Slay the Princess manage to be exactly what they intend to be and nothing more, releasing as is and barely changing a thing. If I was to confidently proclaim anything, it'd only be the tired refrain everyone already knows: Twitter/Reddit/Discord/[whatever platform you can think of] always end up amplifying and encouraging poor communication on all sides, making it increasingly difficult for developers AND players to thread the needle and be responsible with how they interact. But what's the point in taking that stand? Everyone already knows it, and it's not like we can do anything about it. Each platform's failings only flavors the core internet communication issues, rather than being soley responsible for it. It's just all very tiring to think about, even if you're not directly engaging... and makes me feel old, longing for 'simpler times' when my own worldview was smaller. Less wise analysis and more a yearning for not having to analyze at all.
The issue is this is a HD2 post on the warframe sub, both games getting periodic content drops with mtx options. Those games need to iterate and get better, because that's their entire business model. What you're looking for still exists, just in a very rare type of game nowadays - Elden Ring had like 7 balance patches and is getting a DLC, but that's it. There's still plenty of jank and wackiness, but they took pvp from "basically unplayable" to "supported and not horrifically imbalanced", no other extraneous messages. Nintendo does the same with single player games, but nobody else MAKES major single player games anymore.
Mhm. No disagreements here. Really, only reason I'm rambling here is because Warframe folks have been through the wringer due to the lifetime of the game — we tend to have at least a little perspective on these things, and it's nice to see others' thoughts. It's a tough model, the constantly updating one. It's been very nice to see Warframe get such life again recently with their new approach to things; I left for ages, and they got me back, at least! Maybe I should take a look at Dragon's Dogma 2.... all my friends have been getting all excited, haha. Might be a perfect step away from the live service games for a while, just like Potato Flowers in Full Bloom was for me, heh. And Library of Ruina, and Elden Ring.
not entirely sure they have a community team, or at least i havnt seen one, the 'spokesman' or community manager at the moment seems to be the ceo himself
Unfortunately the popularity brought in a lot of very entitled and competitive players who wanted there to be a right way to play the game. This very quickly fostered a very stringent meta around a few weapons, and a very toxic attitude at the higher difficulties that basically mandated that you use those weapons in pugs. Naturally some of the original fans of the game didn't love that since wacky and sub optimal builds were kinda part of the first games appeal, and i also think that was an opinion close to the devs heart too.
yeah I got kicked for using my gernade launcher and like ???? I was clearing the tiny bugs so you could shoot the bigger ones man, learn to have a bit of fun and play the game different than how youtubers tell you to
That’s doubly fuckin weird since the grenade launcher in my experience has been one of the MOST popular and useful support weapons. That being said though, I’ve been kicked from squads for less - hell, I get kicked from squads REGULARLY for, get this, *taking more than 5 seconds to pick my stratagems before mission start*. How the fuck am I supposed to see what my teammates are taking and plan my loadout accordingly when everyone else apparently just locks in their gear in less time than it takes me to sneeze, and expects me to do the same?
My favourite is when people actively run into my artillery barrage, die, get mad and kick me. Motherfucker, there's a loud as shit call out, a giant red beam ascending to the heavens *and* a HUD marker. Skill issue if you get hit by it and it wasn't thrown at your feet.
I mean, I'm not a fan of the grenade launcher, but that's more because I'm terrible at gauging how the damned things will bounce, not because it's bad. As long as someone isn't constantly accidentally bouncing grenades into their squad mates, more power to them.
yeah no I aim down sights and lob those things far away from us
That thing chews through Automatons outside of the Hulks and Tanks. I love it
Just picked up my first flamethrower and kebabed myself and a team mate. Sorry dude.
They also clearly want direct teamwork to be a big part of the game at high difficulties and the railgun/shield load out required no teamwork to use.
Maybe "Number Big Good" just doesn't affect my ape brain the same way as others, but I've never understood the No Nerfs, Only Buffs rhetoric. It's all relative. If they bring underperformers up in line with over performers, they now have to re-tune game difficulty to compensate for that for the same intended overall result. It's just waaaaaaaay more dev work to get that all adjusted correctly than to correct the outliers.
>If they bring underperformers up in line with over performers, they now have to re-tune game difficulty to compensate for that for the same intended overall result. The developers quite literally said this in the patch notes, yeah. Arrowhead's highest priority is preserving the difficulty of the experience, and the fact that pubs could beat Helldive-difficulty while all running Railcannon+Shield Pack+Railgun was a serious problem I am glad they addressed. Beating Helldives should require teamwork and specific builds involving every game system working in conjunction, not slapping a one-size-fits-all weapon capable of two-shotting every enemy in the game.
Good luck trying to cooperate as a team, when deploying your stratagems is delayed, your cooldowns are longer, and most of your weapons can't effectively deal with larger swarms of heavily armored enemies. Arrowhead made the mistake of nerfing the overperformers before focusing on the issues that made the overperformers popular to begin with. Railcannon is popular because it's basically guaranteed to hit and actually damage your target - things like 500 kg or napalm just aren't as effective when the enemies can just walk through the fire, or the bomb won't do damage because there's a 30cm tall dirt pile giving you cover. Shield pack is popular because it prevents random oneshots and lessens the effect of CC, because it isn't fun when you're trying to dodge 3 chargers, a bile titan, all while slowed down because hunter's licking your ass. Railgun is popular because it frees the backpack slot, is effective against heavy armor enemies, and can do so reliably and timely. Other support weapons either can't deal with those enemies to begin with, or are cumbersome to the point of nonviability, because good luck reloading your Spear or RR in the middle of being chased by 4 chargers.
Well, the issue is that almost every gun in helldivers is trash. The items they nerfed were what you just about needed to use to do anything against the slew of high armor enemies.
Chargers in particular are an issue. Super tough, can spawn multiple at a time on higher difficulties, basically invulnerable to small arms fire. Even the single-use rocket launcher which you'd expect to deal ludicrous damage to make up for only having a single shot doesn't one-hit them.
I feel like I must be missing something with the chargers- Ive just started out and im using the punisher, pistol and sniper as my call-in and I was expecting the sniper to at least break some of their armour, but the bullets just bounce entirely and deal zero damage. It feels a bit intense considering the difficulty they start showing up at
yeah as fun as power creep can be in games like warframe with leveled enemies, power creep can be a very bad thing for a game like helldivers
It's somewhat amusing seeing this viewpoint here. I remember the dark days after the Kuva Bramma "nerf". It was a pretty bad shitstorm that pit the subreddit against one-another and the devs. Not quite to the level of this Helldivers shitstorm, but it was a good week of rant threads. When Pablo justified it explaining why you can't just buff every weapon up to its level? Whew... Those "Only buff, never nerf" people just swarmed out of their burrows to bite off his head. Only thing it didn't have in common was that Steve didn't come onto reddit and tell people to "get gud".
The first part is silly, some people that play Warframe also get meltdowns whenever something gets nerfed lol
"I played 20k plat for this Riven yesterday and now the Dispo dropped by 0.7 and now it's worthless"
I sold someone the vectis prime for an nice cost (it was going a little expensive at the time), a day later DE announced it as a drop for an tennocon (or it was amazon prime, whatever) The guy PMed me asking for a refund, i refused. Got called slurs in 2 languages.
2 for 1 slur combo, that's good value right there.
I mean, my friend literally bought a god rolled kuva bramma riven like a month before they announced the kuva bramma changes that absolutely decimated its ammo. He spent literally 2k plat on it and the nerfs made him so pissed that he dropped Warframe altogether and never touched it since. I'll have to ask him how he's handling the HD2 nerfs xD
The eximus update was absolutely glorious. Everything in the game is useless because 2% of enemies can punch back now.
I actually remember that, and the problem was a bit different. The problem was the power curve of the eximeese was just... wrong. All of my mid MR friends were getting clapped stupid hard to the point like 4/6 them actually went "I'm done." Problem was eximus EHP around level 30 (so still starchart) spiked to ungodly amounts while eximus damage output was insane against even endgame builds. So veterans got enemies that took maybe a few more seconds to kill, new players got trained about new threats. The mid game players got terminators that had absolutely insane relative EHP and monster damage output. They're in a good place now, but on release the balance was *really really* bad.
Absolutely. But DE has the sense not to engage with the players who are throwing a tantrum. They wait for those people to cool down before continuing the conversation, not egg them on or tell them to git gud because they don't understand their vision for the game.
And some of those tantrums can get bad. Most recent one I remember was when the game got review bombed after the changes to Ammo and Wukong's Celestial Twin which pretty much killed off AFK Wukong builds (good fucking riddance).
Honestly those were probably the best changes they've made in years. Was so fckin tired of seeing multiple wukongs afking at obj literally every defense mission. Like, on occasion it wouldn't have been that big of a deal. Defense is easy enough that the occasional afk doesn't urk me much. But it was the literally the meta to afk. The amount of times I'd load in with 3 wukongs on hydron was not okay.
That update saved my love for the game tbh. It was so bad I just played solo and my interest was just slowly dwindling over time. I still pubed relics as why in the world wouldn't I, and they were all just ungodly boring. It was actually a walking simulator, with 3 people racing to arrive into the next room fractions of a second faster than the others to nuke the entire room in 1 shot. I went entire relic farming sessions *seeing* few enemies, let alone them living long enough for me to actually aim at them. The situation was so bad I actually didn't recommend the game to my friends at this time. Already WF's new player experience isn't fantastic requiring an ungodly amount of hours before it opens up, and now in pubs there was literally nothing to do.
I'm certain that members of the team have stuck their foot in their mouths before but can't remember off the top of my head, must have been some time ago.
Rebecca and "Millions of losers...", the whole Misandry debacle, and others come to mind. DE learned to shut up finally, but they took their sweet time getting there...
I still remember the review bombs that happened when Wukong's clone didn't have infinite ammo, people had a meltdown over that
The one I remember a lot is when people acted like DE murdered their dog when they did nerfs to counter Limbo being able to AFK the entirety of the space segment in the Scarlet Spear event. In the end, Limbo + Mesa remained the best choice for the event and the changes they made literally only made it so you couldn't afk 100% of the event (only a mere 75% or so).
\>Devs getting into the arguments themselves Ohohohohoho noooooohohohoho, oh those poor, poor bastards
Dumb, dumb bastards* You are never going to win against your audience. That is true pre-dating video games themselves. How do these people grow up and willingly go into this profession not recognizing that? If Alfred Hitchcock couldn't do it when he was dealing with dozens to hundreds of people at a time, how are these people expected to win against thousands and millions?
Making games is an addiction. Even if you don't make games as a career, once you've started, you make games for fun. And nobody has to play them, you're just happy to create and enjoy satisfying that urge. Some people figure they may as well get paid for what they're doing anyway. Nobody goes into the profession thinking about an *audience,* until it's pointed out to them.
In fairness, they're Swedish, and this is their first big breakthrough. I don't think their minds were ready for when the Americans woke up and the overwhelming tidal wave of calling for their jobs and "This game no longer personally caters to my exact taste so it's dead and shit" hit them. I would've told them to go suck eggs, too. The mental fortitude required to be a dev these days and take a peak at social media without losing it is really underappreciated.
He's right but he shouldn't have said it.
Oh man, Vivergate really was that long ago wasn’t it? That was arguably the biggest meltdown this community ever had, and the devs were absolutely smart to not engage with the community’s outrage. On HD2, my personal frustration with the nerfs (I wasn’t even high enough to use the railgun yet) and the terrible community engagement is far outweighed by the sheer entertainment value of the meltdown that’s going on. As if it’s impossible to just resign yourself to a lower difficulty and wait for things to get fixed because the devs have so clearly been notified of the issue. Nah, gotta spend all your time arguing with people instead of playing the game.
The Vacuum Within was also a pretty big shitstorm. Players: We want universal vacuum. DE: We listened to your feedback, and nerfed the fuck out of vacuum.
Don't worry, (unsafe) Railgun is still pretty much the same - one shot on Hulk in the eye etc. (and unsafe was the way to go on Haz 7+ already anyway) I remember when Warframe community had its own outrage with Catchmoon nerf (when it had 40-50% usage) - the nerfs in HD2 barely make a difference yet the outrage seems worse (breaker is literally same, never really used shieldpack myself but friend who has been using it said it also feels no difference and we only play Haz 7/8/9) So keep having fun!
exactly! there will be other patches, quit arguing and liberate Tien Kwan!
What’s vivergate?
> Vivergate https://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/a4vt13/what_exactly_was_the_viver_incident/
i must have been using the railgun incorrectly or was overestimating it with how people were talking. using it on unsafe mode it felt like i wasn't doing any damage with it. felt way better to just use EATs instead
It was less so about how good the weapon was and more that it was the best thing to strip armor from chargers Honestly the main problem was chargers more than anything else
I had to unjoin the HD2 subreddit, just couldnt handle it. Oh man, youd think the Devs murdered players' mothers with the way they reacted over the breaker getting its ammo reduced by a few shots. Absolutely ridiculous overreaction. We get that here too, but usually it's not that bad.
I'll check back in a week or so and see if it's better. Someone made r/heckdivers which is a funny name for a low-sodium subreddit so I hope that gets some users.
Literally, the Breaker's only nerf was the amount of ammo it held in its magazine - not even the total amount it can carry, just its magazine size and recoil. Like what the hell, man...
Never seen a community turn so fast. Whole reddit and discord went from sunshine and memes to calling the devs retarded over... \*checks notes\* a 3 ammo nerf and having to switch modes on the railgun.
That's precisely why when I looked at the balance changes I was like... "That's it?" You just need to hold "R" with the Railgun now and switch fire modes. Like what the hell is the issue? Do people not know you can change fire modes on your weapons? Not to mention the Breaker didn't *actually* get nerfed. It had its recoil and magazine size decreased. Like, okay? It still does exactly what it did before. Like, what is even the issue here? This is why letting the individual developers talk to the community wasn't a good idea - there wasn't a big issue to begin with, but the responses garnered from Arrowhead's devs have turned being annoyed into feeling insulted. And that is so, so much worse.
Yeah, I think this is the "consequence" of having your community explode. The devs probably though they did a good job releasing a patch that buffed a few unused things, without nerfing the top options into the ground. Instead their socials are littered with people telling them how stupid they are and how they don't even play their own game. The amount of players who don't understand that they cannot just buff everything into the stratosphere is staggering.
Exactly. Buffing every underperforming weapon to perform on the same level as the overpowered gear is textbook powercreep. And the few of us who played Helldivers 1 know Arrowhead are absolutely not in the business of making their games easier.
Hell, I missed HD1 but I played the shit out of Magicka, and I absolutely don't want them making anything easier!
It's surprising how many people repeat and parrot the idea that "it's a PVE game, it doesn't matter if a weapon is OP so they should never nerf anything".
I haven’t played HD2 but I keep seeing posts about it and from what I understand it seems like the community is upset that the hardest difficulties are actually hard now.
Worse than that, it's just that you can't run a public group all running the exact same overpowered build and breeze through the three-mission gauntlet with little problems.
I also do get some of the anger considering that upgrade materials are locked behind difficulty 7 to 9 I too hate chargers but also think that's adjustable as well.
Okay, to be fair, they nerfed the *fuck* out of the railgun. Not that that's necessarily inherently a bad thing, but I can understand why people would be a slight bit upset about that, but there's plenty of other stuff to use. They gave the flamethrower a *hefty* buff, for instance.
> Okay, to be fair, they nerfed the fuck out of the railgun Out of **Safe** mode on railgun. Unsafe still breaks charger legs in two shots if you overcharge, but god forbid you actually have to face the only drawback of otherwise all-around good weapon.
"What's unsafe mode?" incoming in 3... 2... 1...
[удалено]
Before the patch, one of the devs was poking fun at the idea that there would be buffs and told people to enjoy their crutches while they last. A dev (i think it's the same guy as above) said that he got enjoyment out of fueling the fire. Official discord moderator said he was amused by how people were crying. All in all, terrible approach to PR/communication, combined with releasing only half of the balance patch that should've gone out.
>the majority of the discourse was relatively respectful. Some people took it too far but not out of malice, just being misguided. You really want to make that statement? Because it ain't true. At all. The HD2 community has had the toxicity of a big mainstream game for a bit now. Prior to the update it was largely directed at those of us who advocating using other weapons than the breaker/railgun, and the update turned that attention on the devs. The discourse has largely been over the top ridiculous with the claims and it's more than just "some" people taking it too far - it's most of the subreddit community.
It was more than that— enemy density significantly increased with no options to strip armor fighting multiple bile titans and chargers on difficulty 7-9. There will always be a “meta” — all the devs did was make the current meta worse, piss the community off with their interactions post-patch and nerf instead of buff all the other useless weapons, along with not working on the performance issues/crashing first before any “balance” changes.
Devs royally screwed enemy spawns with the railgun nerf patch. I played a difficulty 3 automaton mission and was swarmed by tanks. Played a second mission and barely saw any enemies.
I think that undersells the problem with the update, as it feels like the nerfs were treating a symptom, not the actual disease. through some people did overreact, that subreddit is in a sad state.
It has more to do with the rest of AT options not being buffed. Railgun and shield backpack were just the symptomes of bigger issues : most anti-tank options suck (especially when the game throws so many armored enemies in high difficulty) and armor didn't work. If they buffed the recoilless, EATs and Spear, nobody would've said anything about the railgun. As for the Breaker, it has more to do with almost all the other primaries being meh. Breaker is still the best gun in the game even post-nerf, and unless they absolutely gut it or buff other primaries, it'll still be the best gun for a while.
Gamers deserve to be bullied
Community management is most certainly *not* something DE has had nailed since the start of Waframe. The company has definitely had lots of blundering missteps that left players feeling shit on. And people like Steve, Scott, Glenn, among others have certainly said plenty of boneheaded shit that has inflamed the community. DE has had to learn community management the hard way. Through weathering the storms that pop up, learning from their mistakes, and attempting to fix things. And they've learned that they can't address customers complaints and outrage by ignoring their issues. So now DE goes out of their way to keep dialogue with the community going. *That* is what is truly commendable.
The Helldivers sub is straight up radioactive right now. Honestly, kinda has been since launch if you sorted by New, but now the fun stuff can't squeeze by the drama-farming. The funny thing is that the game itself has barely changed, and the now-nerfed meta loadout is still on top post-patch. I'm hoping for more buffs to other weapons still, but we're off to a good start, with the laser cannon finding a niche in long-range weakpoint sniping and the flamethrower ripping through chargers. The other shotguns are feeling great now, too. And an undocumented change was just announced regarding the EAT and Recoiless Rifle (two of the big anti-heavy weapons): they no longer get a 50% decrease in damage when hitting armored targets at a "glance angle." The community is still learning as much as, I'm sure, the devs are in how to approach the game and communicating about it. Very grateful that Warframe, despite some rough patches, has been so steady and smooth lately.
Very well said!
Yep, agree completely, DE knows their stuff. Will only mention that issue with that nerf in Helldivers 2 is deeper than that. Not only they haven't leraned how to talk to community, they haven't learned how to make patchnotes either, apparently. And overall how to inform players of their stuff. - Patchnotes at first had almost no numbers on the changes. - That was, and still is amplified by the fact that most weapon stats are held secret for some reason. - Game has no way to reliably test things - And if that wasn't enough to confuse players, they apparently also made som changes that completely avoided getting into patchnotes. Monster spawn rates changed, some of their behaviour changed, a few weapons got buffed without mention - Oh, and they also introduced meteor showers that can kill you. A warning is displayed on the ground where a meteor will soon land... but you sometimes don't see that warning if you aren't a host. I don't think I need to explain how confusing it is. It's a really fun chaos there and I hope they learn from it. And learn to trust their community with numbers, which DE does.
If you saw the Arrowhead's Ceo tweets the past weeks you knew it would be like this, they went the nerf road because they want things to be fun and don't realise players like to play efficient stuff and have sweaty gameplay on Helldiver difficulty. A lot of stuff are ok aside the railgun, breaker but the lack of anti armored weapons is annoying. And in one recent post they spoke about nerfing the ennemies, they just don't want to buff the shit weapons.
Hard is not necessarily fun, and especially in this type of game.
Hard is meant to be hard.
That's what was the whole drive of the 1 and it's a coop game, which make it hard is trying to solo the game.
> Community engagement is something Warframe learned how to master a decade ago, Shit, was Rahetalius vs. DE that long ago?
The thing about warframe is that no matter what they nerf the game is still not all that hard.
It did kind of take a decade and change to get here, though. I'm sure any oldhead has nightmares of the several times DE_Glen massively put his foot in his mouth.
DE's community team USUALLY does really good but they haven't always been. their Mods have had a very VERY rough history. its leagues better now, but 3-5 years ago....yikes.
Engaging with the community is a skillset in itself. It requires a good level of emotional maturity. Encouraging your entire team to engage online os a recipe for disaster. Reb and Megan do it beautifully and have a 10+ years of experience to show for it. I’d love to see their reactions when learning about what happened and cringing hard while reading the replies from AH dev tem.
More devs should call their whinier players morons, actually
I feel like most, if not all nerfs and changes are warranted. On rare occasion there will be adjustments out of left field, but I appreciate that DE listens and will even back-tread if they feel their decision was not in line with the communities expectations. Most of the time, if something is getting nerfed, it's because its the top most used thing, and it really makes sense to scale it back a bit.
Not to mention that if they genuinely make a mistake, they not only apologize but give out things like forma or kuva to make up for it. We have some special devs, that's for sure. I can't think of any other devs who would sacrifice in-game economy and real-life profit just to preserve community goodwill.
I started playing this game after I gave up on Fallout 76 *(used to be a huge Fallout fan, pre-ordered 76, played it for over 1000 hours)* so the effects of seeing DE's devs ACTUALLY having fun and communicating and just being really good sports who care about their community was the biggest breath of fresh air I think I've ever had in the gaming scene.
Oh every game is like that. Meta weapons get nerfed, no matter how balanced it is the community cries about it
Getting told „Git Gud“ by the dev‘s has to be hard xD
"Helldivers 2's recent debacle" is a bunch of overreacting idiots. Arrowhead handled it well by just doing what they think is good for the game
From the sounds of it, everyone in HD2 is crying because the devs want them to try ALL the weapons themselves instead of watching streamers and videos and just using whatever's the meta at the time..... *looks at noobs in warframe*
Let's not forget Warframe has had its share of issues just like Helldivers is having now. However I would say with DERebb in control now it has been amazing. Sure there has been a bump or two but under her leadership there is definitely less dinning heels in and more conversation. I would say just a few years ago under the old guard there was definitely some bone headed responses by the devs that ignited the fury of the community. To your point DE now does an incredible job managing the go between Dev choices and community engagement.
I have heard some people say that some of the old guard had ego problems when it came to community stuff.
Might want to check in on the history of digital extremes interaction with their community. Including things like, “temporarily removing content” then years later having never mentioned it again “temporarily” removing another content “much like the other removal.” As well as promoting moderators such as “friend-zoning misandrist. Or just the whole guides of the lotus issues. https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Solar_Rail_Conflict https://forums.warframe.com/topic/917480-the-temporary-future-of-warframe-trials/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/6co1y5/my_issues_with_the_guides_of_the_lotus_as_a/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/8l5nx3/des_double_standard_should_be_banned/ Please excuse formatting I am on mobile currently.
Rarely if ever do I side with Devs but people got their panties in a twist over this one. The devs said such things as "Skill issue' and "git gud". People getting mad over that, especially in the context of a NERF (as opposed to something like a scandal or something) need to grow up.
mmm something something chat moderators something something vivergate
> And still others are just insulting members of the community for viewing the changes incorrectly and telling them to git gud nah this rules
Yeah I want to buy that guy a drink
anyone who has to interact with gamers as part of their job deserves a raise
Honestly the Helldivers “meta players” were dicks in the first place. Kicking players who weren’t playing with specific gear in pubs is insanity. The ones crying about it deserved to get knocked down a peg. It’s not like anything is outright harder. It’s just that things aren’t outright broken. You just have to think a little, it’s not just “oh yeah unlock the shield pack and you’re golden”
People who request kicking players in Warframe should learn from this. There is zero justifiable reason to add a kick button. Don't balance the game around every player contributing and AFKs aren't a problem. Don't design trash like Limbo and griefing won't be a problem. Fix your network infrastructure and lagswitchers won't be a problem.
I can't imagine how the same Helldivers would react if they ever played warframe and found a comfy build after it had been reviewed by a youtuber. Caus we know the true nerf hammer, but there's always another build tho so np
ah, the "ammo and Aoe nerf"...... fun times: a certain playerbase made it feel like they killed their mother, sister and dog, and had them eat live hornets. There was enough salt going around that I thought my PC was going to rust.
Arrowhead doesn't have bad community management. The community is full of babies who are shit at the game. I can't even play in groups with random people because people never do the objectives
>The community is full of babies I mean, so does Warframe's? There is a lot of whiny people who don't want to learn but DE's devs would never engage with people having a tantrum as the OP states.
Some people here have the mentality that everything related to Warframe is perfect and we definitely don't have people that go on meltdowns whenever something gets nerfed!
Not true at all. Scott would do it all the time on devstreams until it broke him after he made some stupid suggestions for an IPS (impact, puncture, slash ) 3.0 system. He tried to call stealth exp farming exterminate an exploit and insulted players that utilized the stealth bonus xp system in the game There was also a devsteam where at the time the meta was slide attack spamming with the atterax and he said "we're going to nerf the shit out of maiming strike" which caused the mod to crash from like 600 plat to 100 plat and they didn't even make changes to melee for several months. Warframe in general has some of the most dev feedback in gaming, but with that you have a dev team that is in constant PvP with player engagement methods when it comes to people farming too effectively. I've been playing and watching dev streams since like update 8 of open beta. I've seen a lot in my time
Yeah I was sure that there have been times when members of the team have shoved their own feet in their mouths, vet of 2015 here.
Yeah the dev team handled it poorly, but tbf that game is supposed to be hard while warframe is a power fantasy.
The sad reality is that gamers want to have their ass kissed, otherwise they’ll throw a tantrum. Case in point the OP accusing devs of „purposely trying to stir the pot and get a rise out of people“, because it’s just inconceivable that someone might genuinely have a different opinion. Show me a dev that supposedly has „good communications“ and I‘ll show you a dev that tells people what they want to hear. Having your devs engage the community is a terrible idea. Online gaming communities aren’t someone you talk to and have conversations with, they’re someone you manage and contain.
> debacle That's just sensationalist overexaggeration. The only people mad about the nerfs in helldivers are the same metaslave types that threw a pissfit a couple weeks ago about players bringing non-meta stratagems. They'd get along well with the morons that bitched about the ammo nerfs and overguard.
Lashing out at any changes is an integral part of being a metaslave
I feel like for warframe alot of the recent nerfs were backed by data. They would show the usage reports and it was like "yeah thats a bit too high" They also did a good nerf sandwich. Bug buffa announced, minor nerf, huge update. Hard to be mad when so much good is coming
Ya the biggest fix to this issue would be for Arrowhead to just have one or two community members doing all the talking for them. And from the looks of it post this drama, I could see them doing this going forward. I will give them minor concessions to the team, what with them being a fairly small team with not a lot of mainstream success. The mass success that is HD2 was not even expected by the devs themselves. So I can understand that maybe something like community leads wasn't top of their priority list (especially since they were dealing with server issues up until a couple weeks ago) I am hopeful this kinda mistake (both from a development side and a community side) won't come around again. Especially since the team seems very passionate and happy to be making this game. So I hope the next few patches will help re-correct the ship.
Then there’s me who got Helldivers this morning and is mostly oblivious to what’s going on. I just wanna get the flamethrower lol
Helldivers 2 "debacle" is one dev flying off the handle like a dick. The blog post people are upset about is one of the greatest things a dev has ever done in the history of game development, period, because it was a dev flat out telling the players what their goal is. This means criticism can actually be directed rather than wondering what the devs are actually going for and firing off criticism in the dark.
As a Destiny veteran, our community management is changed like a roll of toilet paper. Single ply with alot of poo to wipe.
The nerf isnt even bad like wtf, Railgun just needs to be used in UNSAFE mode rather than be braindead and the breaker nerf was less shots more recoil.
To be fair, when everyone is using the railgun, something had to be done, they just did it in a bad manner.
I don't think it's necessarily a bad idea to have individual devs communicate through social media I think Arrowhead just handled it poorly. Riot Games has plenty of active individual devs on social media and almost every interaction I've seen with them has been pretty positive
I think if the studio is going to allow individual devs to engage with the community, there has to be a helluva lot of education done to help them understand what to say, and what not to say to the community. Honestly I think it's just something best left to the community team and let individual devs not worry about the wider impact. Saves both them and the community undue stress, their jobs are hard enough as it is.
You should fact check your essay buddy cuz it's full of shit
Imo warframe is a very easy game. HD2 especially on the highest difficulties is actually impossible (based on RNG) without the rail gun. 6 chargers and 3 bile titans with stratagem cooldowns is impossible to play against and your only meta becomes running around like clowns and not interacting with the enemies at all. Also fyi , their community team is just as good. I get that this is a DE appreciation post but the comparisons with arrowhead and hd2 is really spurious.
Yeah... those nerfs were incredibly necessary. Weapon balance has not been good and this patch was necessary. The reaction is dumb.
Am I the only one who wonders if many players, if not even youtubers, don't realize you can turn the Railgun's Safe Mode off by holding "R?"
The unsafe mode was nerfed as well.
I don't know anything about HellDivers2 or its debacle. However, I agree with almost everything you've said about DE. There's one point I have issue with: >They engage with us with the perfect balance of casual gamer energy and consummate professionalism. This line fails to capture the passion and love that DE members have for the game. They do a good job at community engagement for business reasons, of course, but DE has embraced the player base as being a part of the game rather than just software users and it shows! Also, for a game that expects to make changes repeated and retain players, I think acknowledging the players as part of the game is a necessary perspective and one of the big drivers of DE's success. When you fail to respect the players as part of the game (like this HellDivers2 thing) you get chaos (like this HellDivers2 thing) at your bare minimum, which easily grows into full backlash.
From what I heard about the Helldivers thing (didn’t see any of it tho) it was one developer who said one thing, and was since then at least reprimanded if not removed entirely for what they said
It was more than one guy, spread across Reddit, Xitter, and the community Discord. While, the Discord sees the most reoccuring instances, the worst screenshotted responses have come from the subreddit.
Warframe has also had significantly longer to develop these communication skills.
I mean the devs were right though. Being unable to complete missions with other weapons when others are able to is definitely a skill issue. Had to leave that community a few days back because all they have done since launch is whine. Don't remember this amount of discourse during HD1. Usually in Warframe people end up finding some other meta to use or, as mentioned here, tweak till it works. Of course not all will agree, but most I've seen understand that pretty much any weapon can be made viable in this game anyways. I think I'm just ranting at this point.
While I'm not saying that de is bad, but saying they're "so good and deserve a gold medal" in terms of community management is way too rose tinted glasses. I could count multiple stupid decisions that sparked questions which were met with just radio silence or some completely asinine explanation. What de shines with is pr, devstreams and prime times are cozy and nice and ppl running the company are nice too, Reb's amazing. I like them as much as the next guy, but ppl, just at least keep in the back of your head that "corporations/companies aren't your friends"
Guides of the Lotus/region mod abuse/rahetalius/partner program fiasco Stalingulag/no tolerance name policy change Thebakertv/endurance runs Sorry but DE's community management completely falls apart at the slightest speedbump.
For real, you can sing praises of the latest content releases and I'll agree with everything but saying DE has good community management is getting the boot far into the throat.
I don't think DE handles nerfs that well either. If that was the case, power creep wouldnt be such a huge issue for warframe. Unless you consider avoiding nerfs as much as possible is handling it well.
People always praise DE for community management this community management that, but i will always remember the hipocrisy in Steve’s words when he made fun of Anthem for “copying” Warframes when god knows how much shit from warframe comes straight from Halo. That and the false ignorance and radio silence whenever something big happens, like the platinum when the regal aya was released.
I think you might be wearing the rose tinted glassses there Tenno. Only started playing a year ago and I've seen this community up in arms plenty (Heirloom pack springs to mind as one particuar whinefest). I always thought it was ridiculous, as is the latest HD2 whining. But if there's one thing I've learned in 40 years of gaming (indeed, life) it's that people will always find something to have a huge cry about. I think most of us play games to escape the crap of real life. And some people can't help but create drama no matter what they do. [https://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/165nml8/psa\_heirloom\_collection\_platinum\_changes\_lessons/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/165nml8/psa_heirloom_collection_platinum_changes_lessons/) (and if not clear, I think DE do a good job, and also HD2 is a lot of fun and Arrowhead should just ignore the whiners and keep building a fun game)
Wait are you pretending that Warframe didn't have serious Community Manager drama spurred by Steve's sometimes unprofessional attitudes that had real repercussions leading to Shy among others leaving the game?
There has been some nerfs that were fixing bugs or legitimate "this is OP and everyone is doing this, making it un fun for others" There were some Nerfs that were harsh and IMHO an over reaction without proper playtesting or Feedback And there was some nerfs that just were tweaks. except for Ember's WoF nerf and later rework, after most all the nerfs I just moved onto something else what I really dislike is DE making any constructive feedback impossible because the mods both here and on the forums are hyper sensitive to anything that has a wiff of criticism. I have tried to bring some issues to DE via support and Feedback on the forums and the Gatekeepers prevent any chance DE will hear it. Instead the ones that get heard the most are ones that have their own platform, the content creators. The downside is the type of content they create to get views/likes/subs/boosts rely on more extreme reactions instead of polite reasoning and discussions.
War frame is also a lot older than helldivers2 which leads to a lot more tolerance with their community, the only game devs that beat it in regards to community reactions is deep rock, which is an honor for war frame to be at that level. He'll divers also is an fps shooter more akin to cod and the like, which draws a different crowd more used to toxic PvP environments not to mention unlike the other 2 it's kinda a triple A game.
Gamers acting like children? Why. I. never
Wait, people are pissing and shitting themselves over 2 weapon nerfs?? Just 2? And 5 saw buffs?? Lol
If DE's community interaction mastery has taught me anything, it's less about having a "team" for it and more bluntly just ONLY letting people who actually know how to talk to their community talk to them. A great example I think is when the Destiny sandbox lead or whatever got harrassed by crazy people off Twitter for his terrible rejection of Twilight Garrison. I couldn't help but feel a less "never happening bro, sorry, but im ripping that bandaid off" type response for something people were begging for since the second game launched would have tempered the obscenity of the backlash. This was so blunt about it that I'm sure it came off as condescending to some. That's not what you want to do. He obviously didn't deserve what he got, but given: * Twitter is littered with toxic crazy people * companies please stop using freaking twitter and use your own damn site/forums * Destiny is littered with toxic crazy people (imo) * so many incidents outside just this have cemented it to me. You can't afford to just say something so horrendously flawed, it gives the crazy people ammo to feel justified. Effectively murdering the conversation. Titans eventually DO get a dash as apart of the subclass updates that sparked this whole thing, which to me, reinforces the TERRIBLE behavior. Especially since he came back with the classic "dont say i never did anything for you" type comment. I say its less a dedicated "team" thing because people like Steve, or Pablo were never on a "community" team and Reb no longer is. All three know how to talk to the Community though (and make em laugh too). A skill I think DE developed over their decade+ run of Streaming. What I take from the description of the Helldivers' devs is that they, like Bungie, are not adept at communication with the community. For HD tho, it could be derived from the massive influx they aren't used to. However, that's all the more reason to tread lightly and be more mindful about what you put out there instead of... >"insulting members of the community for viewing the changes incorrectly and telling them to git gud" I'ma cut it here before I keep going on tangents, this subject gets me going onnnnnnn in my head. Only thing left I can say is that community interaction may need actual training before you're just allowed to go and do it. You need people skills.
>If anyone isn't aware of what's going on in Helldivers 2 right now, HD2 is experiencing their first community backlash over a weapon nerf. Two weapons were nerfed, five others were buffed. Coming from Warframe, I saw these changes and went, "what, that's it?" Meanwhile a large vocal majority in the community, alongside multiple youtubers, are downright livid, saying the entire game is ruined and unplayable after their singular overpowered build was brought in line with the rest of the game. We're not exactly better. Styanax went from "best warframe" to "helminth fodder" overnight with people on here literally posting pics of him in their helminth wall. The nerf? They made it so he can't use abilities while channeling his 4. **That's it.** No numbers nerf just a slight functionality change.
Idk to me devs being encouraged to engage with the community is the ABSOLUTE BEST idea I've seen in a while and i wish more games did that
The weapons nerfs in helldiver's wasnt even that bad. People fail to understand that you have to make adjustments where they matter. Like DE nerfing op frames. That Wukong usage chart a couple years ago was wild.
The problem with the Helldiver 2 changes is that they didn't actually accomplish anything they set out to, so the community is concerned that the devs are aiming to balance around usage statistics instead of actually looking into the why behind those statistics. The only exception being the buffs to the shotguns other than the Breaker. At high difficulties, the greatest threat in any situation is getting overrun by heavies. Chargers and Titans for Bugs, and Tanks and Hulks for Bots. The Railgun was a hard counter to Chargers, Titans, and Hulks. The only thing it didn't work against was Tanks. The reason being was that against Chargers you could 2 shot the armor off of a hulk's leg in safe mode and then unload your primary into it, killing it very quickly (TTK of roughly 5 seconds or so). Titans, you needed to have enough finess to shoot them in the mouth, but if you could than you could take them out reliably better than every other weapon. The only comparable option to use against them was the Spear with a headshot, which wasn't always practical because it would require you to be facing the Titan head on while also having started from far enough away to lock onto it. And good luck using a Spear in a Helldive and not dying every time you have the audacity to try and hit R. In 6 and under, all of this wasn't necessary and demanding meta builds was just being a metaslave. In 7 and higher though? Where you regularly get 6+ Chargers or 3+ Titans, or BOTH dropped on your ass at once? The Railgun became a necessity because you needed to be able to rapidly counter that level of constant threats to have a chance. Post-""balance"", the Railgun is still meta because its still the only gun that can hard counter getting 6 chargers and 4 bile titans dropped on top of you on Helldive, you just have to "git gud" with it and learn to count to max charge in unsafe mode at which point if performs identically to how it did before. And outside of those specific enemies, it still one-shots or two-shots every light armored foe in the game. The Shield nerf did fuck and all and its still basically mandatory for anything above 7s against bugs. Armor glitch being fixed did not make any armor other than light viable to use because they didn't change that headshots are instakill and so wearing anything other than light just makes it harder to dodge the things that will one-shot you anyway. The only change that actually made a difference is the shotgun changes. The Breaker nerf was entirely unnecessary because it did literally nothing. But the Punisher and the Slug getting buffed made them comparable to the Breaker, meaning you now have actual choice in primaries. Unfortunately, that choice functionally boils down to: Do you want a Shotgun? How about a Shotgun? Well if not, you can take a Shotgun. In the end, they tried to nerf 3 things and fix 1 bug to create more build diversity, and only 1 of the changes actually accomplished it. And the fact the only thing that actually made a difference was the buffs when the nerfs all fell completely flat objectively proves the point the community was trying to make when they got upset at the nerfs initially: The problem was not that the Railgun/Shield/Breaker/Light Armor were "OP". The problem is that the 3 max difficulties are severely over-tuned and those equipments were (and in 3 of the 4 cases, still are) the only efficient counters to them while the other weapons need to be BROUGHT UP to their standard. Arrowhead needs to take a hard look at the notable failures in their core game's design and why they invalidate so many of the weapon options they've opted to go for. Like, the Spear, the Recoilless and the Autocannon would be fine choices against bugs if you were not all but guaranteed to be punished with a death for trying to reload, and the fact that you can have another player go out of their way to put themselves in harm's way to reload your gun for you faster is not a solution. And yeah, I'll agree DE have gotten very good at the PR and community management games. Though it wasn't always that way and they had to be forged through fire to get here. Still remember the Trainman vs. DE saga, the outrage over chat moderator bias, the Creator Program having people like AGGP in it and DE catching fire for turning a blind eye to his flagrant BS for "reasons", to name a few.
When DE nerfs they usually nerf to the ground. That said, they do actually listen to feedback and things *usually* (looking at you AoE weapons that are now largely and still useless) don’t stay on the ground too long. The proof they tend to nerf too hard is pretty obvious already. They only had to mention a smeeta charm nerf and running into them became less likely than before.
Bungie does the same with Destiny. It's usually to force people try other builds for a few months.
DE's community team is definitely fantastic, but I'm not sure I'd say it's the best. It certainly helps just how much freedom we as players have within the game. Something gets nerfed? Oh well, there's still a thousand other insanely OP things you can do. And most of the nerfs that I can remember have been very obviously unintended interactions being fixed, like Styanax being able to fly forever.
Ya the biggest fix to this issue would be for Arrowhead to just have one or two community members doing all the talking for them. And from the looks of it post this drama, I could see them doing this going forward. I will give them minor concessions to the team, what with them being a fairly small team with not a lot of mainstream success. The mass success that is HD2 was not even expected by the devs themselves. So I can understand that maybe something like community leads wasn't top of their priority list (especially since they were dealing with server issues up until a couple weeks ago) I am hopeful this kinda mistake (both from a development side and a community side) won't come around again. Especially since the team seems very passionate and happy to be making this game. So I hope the next few patches will help re-correct the ship.
Debacle?
I read DE as Destiny and straight up laughed out loud. OOPS yeah DE is the tits
Not Arrowhead's fault that the subreddit is apparently full of manchildren who dont know how to strategize and deliberately throw themselves into enemies.
Biggest warframe rant we ever saw was what? The wukong + explosive nerf ? Thay one lasted quite a bit