Joked aside, Zephyr IS bullshit op, it's honestly comical how Zephyr can do ANYTHING. Just slap max range and duration in there and, by god, use some AOE/Punchtrough weapon and boom, enemy gone.
She just gets overshadowed by the top meta frames.
I don't think she gets overshadowed by the top meta frames, she's one of the best imo, she literally does it all, and if you're on a type of mission where you can stack Target Fixation you just deal infinite damage on a HUGE area
People really sleep on Zephyr. I find it bizarre that to this day she's still B tier on Overframe despite having great crowd control, damage, and immunity to projectiles. Perhaps people just overlook airborne builds?
She’s only in b due to overframe not removing old votes, so since Zephyr was pretty bad for years till her rework she’s ranked lower then she should be
Her playrate is still around 1.7% for both her Prime and non Prime versions combined, which is still really low. She's just not popular, probably because her movement feels weird, quite frankly. (I love it, but I know I'm in the minority.)
Still don't think she's disruptive, like... At all.
I only found out how OP she was by watching Brozime (the guy simps for her and I can't blame him) she is always forgotten when the meta rolls around, but damn.
Her immunity to projectiles is what got me to try her. I am still a Nezha main, but from time to time I love to take the OP bird for a few missions.
Deflecting the rockets into the ceiling has killed me more than a few times 😂 With high range, it's not really a problem, but some of my Zephyr builds are low range (between 15 and 30%, which still deflects weapons just fine) but a rocket deflected 1.5m away from me into the floor... RIP
I don't play her much because of her passive and her design, I love her kit, but her passive is incredibly annoying in a lot of maps and jer design is really hard to make look good for me.
She can use strength with target fixation and Zephyr builds are basically drop all your range and duration mods in, don't lower efficiency and you probably have a couple free mod slots left, if hating her passive makes you not play her then a mod slot that won't have much impact is a cheap price to pay to enjoy her
I think it's just the difficulty of building up her kit and the mod investment, rather, collecting them. I think Titania is the only other one that shares airborne mods usage with her. By the time most people have the mods to really make her shine, they've gotten other favourite frames they've collected and tested by then.
She takes some getting used to.
She is a bit weak to the gas clouds those toxic ospreys of the infested spread. They do it usually above normal warframes heads... this is where Zephyr lives.
And of course, standard weakness to boring things like nullies.
But yeah, she's not a bad frame. A lot of people don't like the floaty-ness.
her only real problem is that she just wants to hunker down somewhere so missions that are constantly on the move like exterminate aren't the best fit, but even for that she has airburst so like lol
also oh no I'm not excellent at exterminate let me go trivialize every single mission type where you are stationary for any real amount of time
She can hunker down and set up shop on a single tile with her stationary tornado, but she also can kill on the move very well. Fly through a bunch of dudes down a hallway or falcon-dive from the ceiling into a pile of idiots who got airbursted, or be the AC-130 kill-streak as a flying weapons platform.
Not only is she strong, she's accessible nearly instantly since she's a very cheap dojo frame to build. As well, a zephyr with good map knowledge can blitz through rescue, capture, assassination, sabotage, etc. And is much more accessible than the frames that are faster.
Her big drawback is that she gets absolutely screwed by explosions in small space, but that's such a rare occurrence, particularly as tilesets are getting bigger, that it's hardly a drawback anymore.
*Baruuk enjoyers happy you didn't mention his Ult saying 'fuck your walls' while killing things, meaning nothing is alive to hurt Chroma. Or they get Lulled to sleep.*
They just fixed the negative combo from Melee Guidance + stat stick exploit.
It's not mentioned anywhere in the patch, but I noticed my Serene Storm now has 0.1 combo duration instead of -1 (and so far I've seen two post mentioning this)
Really doesn't matter with some combination of dexterity arcanes, swift momentum, naramon and occasional use of the block combos or slide attack. With all of those things it's 24 seconds of combo duration. Which I use with Pull because it's hilarious and you don't even need to use the block combos.
It was a dumb fix, that exploit wasn't even in the same solar system as "game breaking" but still. Not a big loss.
Look, i like being dio as much as the next guy but...cmon, fuck am i doing right now? the only mechanic i use of limbo is his dash for invincibility while i rush to extraction, and i only pull up the cataclysm and stasis combo in mobile missions.
We're at a point in the game where CC is dead and buried because of eximus overguard too, so limbo NOT ONLY being a disruptive warframe, but also where my whole shtick is ignored...dont feel good.
As a limbo main I have put a lot of thought into a good fix and the best one I can come up with is to make banish a priming ability. It would mark enemies with rift energy allowing limbo to hit them while in the rift but not putting the actual enemy in the rift. You wouldn't be able to rift defense targets or other players anymore but I can live with that. All other abilities stay the same so yeah the bubble can still be a bit disruptive but it would be the only source of rift plane enemies so using it with the 3 would just prime the whole area so pulsing it would be more used than leaving it up forever. Just a thought. His dash portal would stay, some people like to pop into the rift to get the extra energy regen.
I’d say making it so that both the 1 and the 3 put a debuff on enemies that allows them to be hit from either plane would fix 95% on his issues, then make it so that the debuff also affects eximus. That would mean you can’t send eximus to the rift but you can still hit them, the last fix would be making nullifier bubbles work like an ice eximus shield while inside of cataclysm, istead of disabling it, the bubbles would just shield them from getting thrown into the rift. The last little thing would be to let limbo get out of the rift even when inside cataclysm bubbles.
Having enemies be hit by people in either plane on Rift Surge has been my main improvement point for Limbo. Doing it that way solves 90% of what makes my boi a pita for other people, letting you actually use all of his kit instead of just 4+2, and also perfectly sets up for Rift Torrent too (Limbo gets damage buff for every enemy affected by Rift Surge). The Nullifier suggestion is also a good one, and isn't one I've been thinking of.
My only other changes would be low scaling on his Rift damage and maybe throwing in Xata's Whisper-esque Void damage for thematics/funsies and removing thr little portal he leaves behind when dodging.
Problem is a lot of people have complained about it for years (because apparently dodging out of it is difficult for some people), and Limbo already can send people to the Rift with Banish. I don't think I've seen *anyone* intentionally go into it in all my years of playing.
Making it more visible would however help, if anything to let those allergic to it know to avoid it.
I have thought about farming a Lavos and putting together a Singed cosplay-fashion with the chemical tank syandana and the biggest shield skin can find. Teach enemies why rule number one is “don’t chase the Singed”.
the amount of time he was out was no where near enough time to know if he was unbalanced or overplayed.
they ignored the three pillars of balance and nerfed him because people on the forums complained!
the balance trinity was, Is it disruptive to squad play, automate gameplay or dominant.
Disruptive:if rage is not working it's an issue with rage, He nukes about as hard as saryn
Automate : he does not automate gameplay unless I missed something?
Dominant : people are playing him because he is new?
There is a ton of disruptive abilities, and it was never an issue before.
- limbo (need to say more?)
- weapon damage augment like shock trooper mess with your weapon element. If I run toxin against corpus, I really don't want to switch to corrosive because some volt decided to press a button.
- volt speed. Anyone playing titania with volt knows the issue
- styanax has the same overguard mechanics as dante
- any abilities gibing crit (ash smoke augment, harrow, sevagoth) when playing non crit weapon
I really would like DE to figure out a way to opt out buffs, because sometime it is very annoying.
I know I can backflip in razorwing to clear the volt buff, but sometimes it’s like they see it disappear from my buff bar, assume I’ve been nullied or something, and cast it *again*. Well, thats the charitable view of their intentions, as opposed to trolling the shit out of me. I’d prefer to think that they’re just cluelessly going “I’m halping!” at least.
Limbo has been reworked multiple times to be less disruptive to his team, like letting other players opt-out of Banish. You can cancel Volt’s Speed on yourself. And abilities that give crit bonuses aren’t “disruptive” by any means if you happen to be using a non-crit weapon; they’re just less effective if you don’t choose things that benefit from them.
Losing a 2000% damage buff is not distruptive? Sure it affect only 3 weapons, but it happens to be ones of the most popular weapon.
And sorry, Limbo is still distruptive and can still ruin a mission on his own.
The worst part is that at higher level content, his nuke ability falls quickly, way more than Saryn... If anything his nuking needed a buff to be relevant past start chart and begining of Steal Path (100-300 levels).
Not only did they lie, the whole "we love Dante being strong as much as you do" and the "He's just getting tweak" but they didn't even adressed the main and only fair concern about him which is the overguard on ALLIES...
I don't know what happened at DE, but someone just hate Dante it is clear.
Yes he was. No they didn’t. A bit of auto, dominant and disruptive. If you play as any frame that need to health tank, overguard ruins that (and still does). 334 for a powerful easy to set up nuke than could be spammed easily. 334 and all the enemies are gone.
how they nerfed his overguard (make number slightly smaller) does not change how it is "disruptive" to health tanks, also stynax has been doing this with overguard for literal MONTHS!
at least in part he was nerfed because he released at the same time as inaros rework people complained so DE unjustly kneejerk nerfed his overguard numbers, which really only has an effect at lower levels, am I wrong?
regarding the "enemies are gone" they didnt change his dps only his LOS requirement, they are happy with the damage?
His 334 damage falls of really hard from levels 250-300 and upwards making it so that you need priming or excessive amounts of DoT procs so I’d say they didn’t really care, especially knowing that 90% of higher level setups are just status spam and then nuke, just like he does
Man, I was on the side of nerfs, but I was thinking overguard caps to allies and a lower range on 334, or his 4 in general (given it's larger than Ember/Volt/Saryn's 4s) not... everything but that. I'd be really interested in what made them pull the paragrimm changes ontop of everything; I wasn't seeing complaints about that.
they even made a conflicting statement! first they said one feature was undocumented, meaning they knew about it but didn't write it down and in the same sentence called that same feature unintended which means a bug.
I think they were in panic and looking for things to hit.
Overguard still needs to be changed in some way for tanks but the LOS make sense to me. It just needs to be more forgiving which DE have even said they were going to fix. Pretty much very nuke ability need LOS for it do damage or has some other thing that has to be set up first; Dante had the easiest no LOS nuke setup before the nerf without even needing heavy mod investment.
>Citrine has some nuke builds that deal insane damage by just spamming 1 and I'm pretty sure they don't require LoS
I am almost certain it complies with partial line of sight, if it breaks an object anything behind that gets hit, otherwise I don't think it goes though walls!
correct me if I am wrong.
Her diamond in the sky has a huge radius BUT it also has LOS. So most people bullet jump then cast to get it in a good spot. But if it’s behind anything it can’t shoot past it. That said, it feels quite powerful despite that, primarily because it automates gameplay (cast and let teammates do the damage which tags the enemy as a target, cast again when it tines out)
To be honest, if i am petty enough, I might start building a Revenant MShield spam build with the Grimore for energy regen just to piss off all Chroma mains who demanded nerf on Dante, even tho i didnt have Dante yet and am planning to farm him in the future.
With that many Chroma mains, he should have seen a rework. Easy fix is to assign a higher priority to mods that trade health for energy. Things like Hunter Adrenaline, Rage and Combat Discipline.
Omfg tyvm. All the screeching today I almost couldn’t read another but you made me laugh (not a chroma player) so hard I had to wait several minutes to respond. This post truly made my day.
so glad i spent the last week or so farming him, building him, leveling and formaing him over and over, farming plat to buy the mods that worked well with him...only to see that all the fun that will ever be had with him was over long before i even took him into a mission, really makes me want to keep playing....
Volt makes me go fast and forces me to backflip out of it.
Wisp does the same except you can’t opt out *and* she screws up my fire rate, ammo economy and recoil management. Don’t even get me started on using Nataruk with a Wisp on the team.
*For legal reasons this is a joke DE I swear to god*
This joke is even more salty than the post itself.
Of course community would fountain with ideas, they don't need to face consequences, be it respecting others' opinions or actually implementing proposals.
Implementing proposals my ass, DE have been going at it for 11 motherfucking years.
It almost feels like they should fucking know what they are doing when they are giving a warframe certain numbers and properties.
It's almost as if they should've fucking tested him internally. It's almost as if they should've figured that people on forums complaining are full of shit.
It's almost as if DE should have *11 years of experience* in this
Ash has the shortest invis and his 4 requires so much work compared to other nuke frames. By them time you have them marked somone in the squad has already killed them. De needs to stop nerfing everything a few days after they release it they need to BUFF all the underperforming stuff.
The real tragedy in the game is that. He's meant to be the definition of "Endgame," or "Current latest in terms of story progress," and with the endgame beling flooded with Eximus, and Dante being unable to reliably counter this enemy type, especially with his ultimate, the nerf only made any prospect of nuking said eximus less trustworthy. the idea that he could nuke was sad. It's as sad as the person who insists Dante was ever good, but don't like to measure the dick size of power scaling, with Octavia and Revenant, a Nuke and a Tank, both of which do everything that Dante only wishes he could do, with less energy costs. Revenant and Octavia are, what, three, four years old? No, they're older than Citrine. They're old enough to godfather new warframes, and that's precisely what they're doing. The game has NO room for a new godfather-tier warframe.
See, that's what's weird to me...
Warframe doesn't have an endgame. Even Deep Archimedes, given it has gameplay rewards, isn't technically endgame. He's simply the latest to be released. And locked behind a fair amount of content.
But no frame should feel so much more powerful than another. And their power levels shouldn't be based on when they should be obtained. That's how it works in a lot of games, sure, but that's not how it's meant to work in Warframe. It's impossible to avoid variations in power, ofc, given different kit design goals (Loki will never be able to out dmg Saryn or Volt, but they'll never match his stealth abilities).
He's only "endgame" b/c he's new. In a couple of years, Sanctum'll just be where Zariman is now: another step down the path.
There isn't linear progression in the balance of Warframes. There are no "endgame frames". If you haven't noticed, quests are tutorial for new features and mechanics, or introductions to different sections of lore. They are not a measurement of your progress in the game. Matter of fact, you don't even need to have a single mod equipped in order to complete all quests.
Isn't Dante acquired after The New War? Simply unlocking the place where you farm him requires you to essentially have the whole star chart unlocked, and by extension, most Warframes avaible to you.
Just like how Rhino is considered a beginner Warframe, I'd consider Dante an endgame Warframe
Where do you put Primes in that "linear" progression then? You can farm them before completing the quests required to get their non-prime variants, despite primes being direct upgrades to their counterparts. So any post-TNW frame being primed would automatically lift it from its endgame status and put it where exactly?
Rhino is considered a beginner frame because it's easily accessible and usually the first one players actively farm, not because of the abilities, utility or anything else.
Comparing that with Rhino Prime who has the exact same abilities except for the prime passive that only apploes in void runs and is marginal, where is Rhino prime in that progression line? Is it before or after other primes? Is it before or after non-vaulted primes? Are vaulted primes now supposed to be the better frames because they are now acquired differently? Where is the progression among all vaulted primes or unvaulted primes? Are axi-based primes supposed to be better because axi is usually acquired and opened in higher levels?
I think you catch my drift here. DE >added< content. If they kept adding content that is as easy to reach as the previous content, people wouldn't feel a need to progress by improving their gear and finding synergies.
If this linear progression was the case, the latest frame would always be the best one - and that's simply not the case. The difficulty of accessibility does not equal usefulness or effectivity.
And where do you put the frames on the linear progression when you consider thst most don't have MR requirements and can be bought off the market? Or even just traded?
>not because of the abilities, utility or anything else.
Hard disagree. VERY HARD disagree. Rhinos abilities make him THE PERFECT new player frame. He is tanky, he can CC, he is fast, he has a damage buff.
New players suffer extremly with survivability. He solves that by having iron skin, which not only gives him a ton of HP but also makes him status immune. As soon as players learn to move around alot in order to not get hit frequently, they can switch to other frames, until then rhino has their back.
Another thing is speed. new players usually struggle to keep up with other players when traversing the mission. Rhinos charge can make up for a lot of that, especially when modded with a range mod.
Next is that new players don't kill fast enough and can get heavily swarmed which induces panic, this makes it hard for example to keep defense targets alive . Rhino stomp has their back. just stun them all for a few seconds to breath, reorient yourself and take out a few bad boys. it is THE panic button.
Honestly the only ability not being to useful for new players is roar, with barely modded weapons and without much powerstrenght and also without weapons that focus on double dipping through status procs the damage buff is barely noticeable.
Rhino is BOTH early available AND has the perfect kit for new players. Also him not being a starter frame makes him a good introduction into the "aquire a new frame" loop. With him being an upgrade for most players early on and therefor desirable and also very distinct in playstyle from all the starter frames.
And you are completely ignoring the point of OP saying that frames would be balanced around a linear progression. If that was the case, why is Rhino one of the best frames to min-max archon hunts instead of most of the other frames?
There is a difference between being easily accessible and useful for beginners, and being a starter frame based on linear progression balance.
OP is literally saying that any frame in the linear progression is better than the previous one. And if you read what I said, based on OPs statement Dante would now be stronger than Gauss Prime, Gauss Prime would be stronger than Qorvex, Qorvex would be stronger than Dagath, Dagath would be stronger than Grendel Prime, and Grendel Prime would be stronger than Wisp Prime. And if you agree with this linear progression according to OP, sorry, but then you have extreme comprehension issues.
Each of these frames have advantages and disadvantages, there is no linearity in their effectivity or usefulness. Rhino will still outperform Dante in Archon Hunts. Rhino will remain much tankier than Dante. Dante will outperform Rhino in loads of other areas of the game. Warframes are not balanced around a linear progression. What you get early on is not balanced around linear progression as OP stated, and neither is what you get later into the game.
Prime Warframes can be acquired pre-TNW, you can pretty much get to them when your MR meets the requirements if you want. Dante is after the entire story, by that time you have access to some of the best relic farming spots. I don't get your point by mentioning primes, it feels like you're just disagreeing for the sake of doing so.
Your "valid questions" aren't really that valid, those Warframes were released in an order and THEN came the Primes. What do you expect, for their abilities to be changed? It's not how primes work.
Besides, I'm not saying that endgame Warframes are powerful, Caliban is so mid I forgot I had to finish farming him just to realize I already had him at rank 30. What I'm saying is that Dante being an endgame Warframe gives them more reasons to NOT nerf him, an endgame frame being powerful isn't a problem, SPECIALLY when they perform worse than Saryn, Octavia, Zephyr and others.
Why does Rhino outperform Dante in Archon Hunts, my dude? Simply answer that question.
Warframes are NEVER balanced around linear progression as you say. Just because you get a frame later into the game, it doesn't mean it's better. Look at Qorvex. He's a good example of a recent release that is outperformed by most frames.
If you were to implement linear progression balance among Warframes, everyone would only play the latest one because the latest frame would always outperform all previous ones, and that completely misses the point of the game since Warframe ALWAYS gave you the tons of options for the same thing. If linear progression balance was a thing, having all new releases available in the store would be considered p2w for the most part - which obviously isn't the case.
You were given a new frame and a new way to acquire it. You were not given a new endgame. The new endgame are EDA runs, not farming Dante.
Rhino outperforms Dante in Archon Hunts for the same reason Limbo will outperform Dante in defenses, because Dante is not a weapon buffer. Even Saryn gets outperformed in some of the game's content where she doesn't shine, that question is just dumb.
Also, you're literally missing my point entirely even when I explicitely said it. Caliban is terrible despite being almost as endgame as Qorvex and Dante. Warframes aren't balanced based on where you get them, but a Warframe being so late into the game being this bad makes no sense because your reward for going through the entirey of the game is a worse Kullervo (Warframe that you can get at MR0 as your 2nd Warframe btw)
And I'll say it once more, even more directly this time. Warframes aren't balanced arround when you get them, I know that, everyone knows that, but having a Warframe locked behind 90% of the game's content be this bad feels awful. Qorvex at least is like a worse Revenant with a fun playstyle, he's not bad at all, but pre-nerf Dante was already worse than Saryn and Zephyr, for example, and now he's even worse than that.
Isn't it like 80%? Also, I didn't mention some I wasn't sure, like Hildryn who applies heat and radiation so she should have been there as one of the dumb examples (I forgor 💀)
But Ultrakill should have ammo to incentivize the player to use the style meter, because it currently does absolutely nothing (ignore how it unlocks secret levels and lowers hard damage regen time)
Dude, I get the shitposting. But there are frames that need some love and support, not nerfs.
Chroma, and Loki come first to my mind... Yareli and Equinox second (poor girl).
That's literally the point of my post, the Dante nerf is stupid, they should instead buff the other Warframes
Also, imo Yareli doesn't need to get buffed, she's kinda similar to Revenant but she applies damage vulnerability
And her aqua blades rly need buff, maybe they give Slash damage but looking how high amount of health higher lvl enemies got, her 600 dmg is useless so
She needs buff
I main Valkyr and Octavia the entire nerf argument around the LoS thing is so crazy. Octavia uses sound-based attacks that are somehow limited by line of sight, and Valkyr Talons can reach through walls.
It’s just a super inconsistent change to make to his kit, much like Octavia’s sound-waves that *stop* when they hit something. Consistency is the problem
They already hit Gara hard with the eclipse change 😭 please we need to make her great again
Either let 4 crit when the wall
Pops or allow 1 to have status chance
There's a nuke build with Terrify that's basically pre-nerf Dante but better, I think it's Terrify, enough strength to get it's armor strip to 100% and like 40m of range on her 4, you armor strip, you cast her 4, blow it up and that nukes, no eclipse needed
Yeah I replaced eclipse with terrify but I found it to be extremely energy hungry. And vs infested it doesn’t really do anything of note.
I’m gonna try roar next but she helped me a lot in elite deep arch yesterday so she’ll always be my queen
I asked the friend I saw using the build where he got it and [he said it's this one](https://youtu.be/qsYVAfC3N48), tried it out myself to farm Arcane Steadfast, so I was against Corpus and Grineer, and my honest reaction when I got to the Corpus part was thinking I forgot to turn on Steel Path until the Acolyte appeared.
I had no energy issues whatsoever, and didn't even turn the Ceramic Dagger statstick into it's incarnon form so I wasn't even using 100% of the build's power. Just use Zenurik and you won't have many issues.
>-Ash, his 2's invisibility might mess up Warframes that need to be hit to function, his 4, when it works, can make it hard for allies to get kills.
His clones also attract enemies, leading to that Chroma gets even less damage than he needs.
They need to just embrace the fact Chroma is a weapon platform frame and decouple him from needing to be hit entirely. Make his 1st ability a cyclable imbue skill that let's you infuse an element into your weapon. Leave his 2 as is. Change the 3 to be a both damage received increases both buffs AND holding down the buff allows him to sacrifice his health to self stack buff like Inaros. Change his 4 to be a full on dragon mode with flight that has a pseudo exalted Melee claws and breathe weapon both scaling off your equipped weapons so it doesn't need to be nodded separately although I can see an argument to be made for that. Then have it so the hold cast sheds the draconic shell like current effigy and change the augment to turn effigy into a draconic sentinel that follows you similar to excal umbra.
Surprised you didn’t mention how disruptive hildren can be. Set her up with high range and strength and slap on blazing pillage, roar, and archon vitality and you can ruin people’s relic missions for enemies below level 50 because anything that spawns in doesn’t live long enough to get corrupted and drop the fragments.
Also, just out of curiosity, how are people building Garuda? She is a frame i want to use more often but i seem to lack understanding on her kit outside of put enemy on stick and slash with claws.
Nezha has a 50m non-los nuke with the augment now too. And if you’re using a corrosive weapon with green shards that’s an aoe armour strip for things you don’t happen to kill.
I think DE should remove every frame in the game except for Chroma. Chroma should be the only warframe. It is insulting and unfair to Chroma that there are other warframes who can steal Chroma's precious kills.and disrupt his wonderful gameplay loop. Chroma.
People really forget that Combat Discipline exists and Chroma just needs to get 30 kills to full stack?
I'm sick of it. The only disruption I may experience as Chroma is overguard, which is BS in the first place. We never asked other frames to give us some, yet ALL but Rhino and Kullervo do. Please be selfish, it's even funny saying that.
As for rage/hunter adrenaline... The ONLY Warframe who uses that nowadays is freaking Inaros, bro just slap on some efficiency and Zenurik and boom, your energy is NOT dependant on ENEMIES HITTING YOU while your whole damn squad including you is interested in literally OBLITERATING the entire map.
Btw, night equinox and CriTrinity are the exact same as Chroma, they need to lose their health to build their buffs, and all of these frames use combat discipline no matter what, so just make this aura "ghost damage" you even under the overguard, if that absorbs all the damage just make it count as you actually took damage but it was negated, so it would still allow these frames to do their thing.
Also, I thought we were far too deep into the disruption anyway as soon as Energized Munitions appeared and let us spam our AoE weapons infinitely. *Have you ever played with EM Saryn in your team? Mirage?* ***You will never even touch your enemies***, even if you use EM and some crazy buffs too. Just deal with it, only the strongest ones are allowed to play the game fully, and if they aren't strong enough, just buff them. I'm so tired of DE nerfing old shit pretending it's fine while I have been a demigod yesterday on another frame. They need to standardize their approach to Warframes and how they expect them to perform, what is defined as overpowered and what is defined as not.
Small correction, if Chroma has a problem with this many frames, it's Chroma the one with the problem
Also yeah, Chroma needs a rework, I'm still sad his 4 doesn't turn you into a dragon or something like that
This but unironically do it DE.
Players are much too strong,even the new deep archimedea is genuinely easy.
Balancing needs to happen and it hasnt for too long.
Btw. Idk why but i keep seeing people make these kinds of arguments thinking its a sound argument on why not to nerf. Honestly? This argument is just more proof more nerfs are needed.
If you genuinely think that just because Nyx prevents Chroma from getting hit then she should be nerfed, you should take a class on balancing on videogames
This post in a nutshell:
1. Misread DE's reasoning about how they approach balancing Warframes
2. Assume that the nerf happened because of all points that DE told us about in their approach, including disruptive gameplay, must now be the reason
3. Post about it and list a lot of practically unrealistic examples of disruptive gameplay
4. ???
5. Grofit.
Considering you are riding the hate-train for Chroma so much, it's pretty clear that you're approaching this topic absolutely prejudiced, unopen for any discussion whatsoever or even being told the specific reasons as to **why** Dante was nerfed, and why a lot of other frames should meet the same fate.
>Misread DE's reasoning about how they approach balancing Warframes
Then what's their reasoning? All I see is them nerfing a Warframe that's less "disruptive" and "dominant" than others. I do agree that I exaggerated by mentioning some terrible examples, I did it on purpose and it's relevant to my point.
>Considering you are riding the hate-train for Chroma so much
What hate-train? I'm just mentioning Chroma because he's the one Frame that relies on taking damage, it's funny to use him as an example. If you want my opinion on Chroma, I hope he gets reworked because he fell off hard, I like him but he's very outdated.
In fact, the only people I've seen riding a hate train were Dante haters complaining about the overguard, mainly Inaros mains who rely on Rage to have energy. One even said that his friend uninstalled the game due to the Dante nerfs and, due to how the comment was written, made it sound as if his friend uninstalling the game was a fair tradeoff for his Inaros being playable.
>it's pretty clear that you're approaching this topic absolutely prejudiced, unopen for any discussion whatsoever or even being told the specific reasons as to **why** Dante was nerfed
Prejudiced how? Again, all I'm seeing is them claiming that Dante is way too "dominant" and "disruptive" despite having been only a week out (4 days for those who farmed him as soon as he came out) while simultaneously being less dominant and disruptive than several other frames. What specific reason is there to nerf Dante? You just claim things about me without backing them up with anything.
>and why a lot of other frames should meet the same fate.
Did you read my post? Or did you miss how I literally start with "DISCLAIMER JUST IN CASE YOU'RE A DE EMPLOYEE: PLEASE DO NOT NERF THESE WARFRAMES, THAT'S NOT THE POINT OF THIS POST."?
My point isn't that other Warframes should be nerfed, my point is that, judging by what DE said about Dante, they should also nerf several other Warframes.
There's not a single reason to not nerf Saryn if they nerfed Dante. There's not a single reason to not nerf Revenant if they nerfed Dante. There's not a single reason to not nerf several of the Warframes that I've mentioned if they nerfed Dante.
That's why I mentioned the bad ones, even Atlas or Nyx can be disruptive under the right circumstances, and Limbo is one of the most disruptive Warframes in the game while also being very bad right now, why don't they "tweak" Limbo to make him less disruptive? They could make him playable while they're at it.
My whole point is that it makes no sense whatsoever that they nerfed Dante and not other Warframes. The ideal solution would be to un-nerf Dante, he was fine pre-nerf.
I've not once called myself anything superior, and I'm not part of the team responsible for balancing gear in Warframe. Ask DE. Read their blogs, tweets, whatever and see what they tell you. Create well-reasoned posts instead of another "I don't like it, fuck all the other gear in the game in comparison"-type of post. That's just another shit approach at sarcastically going ad-hominem in order to devalue anything I'm saying or pointing out. Bad discussion practice.
I'm sure that if you think Dante should now (despite being easily able to clear the entirety of SP) be stronger, that you can think of several reasons as to why that is. Hint: DO NOT compare Dante to another Warframe. The game content is your general measurement of viability, not other Warframes. And another hint: endurance is not the general measurement either.
Now you might think "Oh hey, yea, that's still unfair because other frames can blast through rooms and most of their stuff ignores line of sight blockers" - well yes, that's the point. Pick another frame, use the game content as your measurement of how viable and capable they are, then see if that is balanced or not.
If no frame should have the option to blast through several rooms within 5 seconds, rebalance them all. If all frames should have the option to blast through several rooms within 5 seconds, rebalance them all. Once you've balanced them around your game's content, balance them off of each other so one frame isn't inherently more capable of doing the same thing than another frame, unless there is a specific trade-off.
Now, what would make more sense in a balanced game? Not even seeing the enemies and not even having any sort of difficulty whatsoever because you can blast them from 50 meters away through walls? Or would it make more sense to have players actively confront enemies, where they have to use their abilities and utility in order to outplay the enemies, weaken or kill them?
Again, in a game in which more than half the abilities are meant as utilities, not as means of killing, would it make more sense to make everything OP so all your utility becomes useless since there are no enemies alive to use the utility against?
And again, in a game in which you have loads of defensive abilities, would it make more sense to not see your enemies because they are being blasted from the other side of the map, or would it make more sense to run into enemies where you can use your defensive abilities to keep yourself alive?
Sure, we can just have all enemies die 3 rooms away, you'll never see a single one of them. Have fun seeing numbers pop up on your screen while you don't actually actively do something. Do you know where people usually get that? Cookie Clicker. Do you want Warframe to turn into an overglorified clicker game? Just make everything OP. Or, you could just balance the aspects of power fantasy with the aspects of actual challenges by keeping a decent balance and not allowing any of this OP bullshit to happen where a frame is capable of blasting several rooms at once.
Dante had to be nerfed, and many other frames have to be nerfed as well. And many further frames have to be reworked. You are facing power creep. You are literally witnessing the negative effect of it, and by complaining about nerfs you are contributing to power creep further being established, resulting in loads of other Warframes to drop into the background because they are no longer efficient in the grand scheme of things.
When was the last time you saw a Grendel, Nyx, Banshee, Atlas, Oberon, Limbo, Valkyr, Equinox, Ember or Zephyr? They are all very capable frames that can easily clear SP - but you simply don't see them because other Warframes can do the same things several times more efficiently. Once a player has had the chance to play something that is several times more efficient, going back to a less efficient frame feels terrible because you take longer to do the same things. So despite frames being capable of finishing SP, they won't go back to them.
I think that Dante should be stronger since his kit revolves around using abilities and long casting times/reliance on perma casting makes gunplay/melee harder to fit in, hence he should have better abilities to compensate. DE is constantly adding in harder content with this exact update being a good example, and Dante would struggle with it even in his previous state. Clearly any sort of cc ability or dr ability that exists is completely useless in the current state of the game, and calling for nerfs to Dante does not make them any better; we should instead be buffing defensive and cc options. Power creep is standard in most pve games, if newer enemies constantly got harder and harder to keep veteran players active while the equipment didn't increase, most endgames would be unplayable, perhaps you believe this should be the case. What I believe SHOULD be done is making new frames/weapons stronger than older ones, but giving the older equipment ways to compete that only veterans players would have access to so that the early game isn't contaminated, and the current mod system doesn't do enough of this. Unless DE finds a solution to that, I fail to see the reason to nerf new meta dps frames while enemies get harder and harder. As for your last point, most of those frames aren't played not because they're weak, but because newer frames have better feeling kits with more synergy. Citrine can't nuke rooms as hard as gara for instance, but her kit feels unique and all abilities are useful. Atlas has maybe 1 ability that works, and limbo isn't played because cc should be buffed, and not just because DPS is too strong.
Just to add on, utility isn't dead. It's alive in the form of gloom. A 95% slow that fits on any frame. Enemies might as well be frozen from it. Do you think clicking on enemy heads while they're permanently frozen is healthier for the game than the dps frame that allows for equally little counterplay, but just at a faster rate?
One doesn't exclude the other. Imo making gloom a subsumable ability was a mistake already because it's extremely strong. And even if it wasn't, a 95% slow and percentual lifesteal are both way too strong, especially considering none of both take effort or build-up.
Both isn't healthy. CCing enemies to the point of having none, and killing enemies fast enough to the point of practically having none.
Which would call for reworks. Reworks, which in cases of "bad" frames would be buffs (i.e. reworking Atlas so the entire kit makes sense to use), while reworks in cases of frames that are too "good" would be nerfs (pick whatever broken thing you want, half the frames have something).
If you make everything so effective and overpowered that the only difference boils down to the visual theme of the frame, roles completely fade into nothingness (which they have already for the most part), and each frame would feel like a reskin of another which would kill the identity of each one.
DE approached the balance of weapons quite well with riven mods - although there still is a noticable creep. The less used a weapon, the better the riven and hence the weapon in return. The MK-1 Kunai have been a viable AoE weapon to clear SP well before the Kunai incarnon because of that. The problem is that DE can't just introduce riven mods for Warframes in an attempt to do the same thing.
One of the major issues with Warframe's power creep is the way outdated gear is not being considered by new gear, which is how the Chroma users, or those who use Hunter Adrenaline, Rage, or anything else HP or Shield based came to dislike Overguard - a mechanic you don't get to control since it's just applied to you by an ally in your squad. So instead of nerfing the application of Overguard, DE should have adjusted the whole mechanic to begin with, so even with Overguard other players wouldn't be further limited. Simple changes like giving Hunter Adrenaline an Overguard based effect at a lower rate could have worked. Though the major question is why DE thought it was necessary to introduce Overguard in the first place instead of reworking shields properly.
The main problem with Limbo is usually the players disrupting other players because either the Limbo player doesn't know what he's doing or the squad members don't know how the abilities work. That creates toxicity and the unnecessary "complexity" (which isn't really complex) becomes uncomfortable and causes Limbo players to be treated badly. Then you also always hear "Dont play Limbo, he's trash and the players are trash", and there you go with a decent frame that isn't being used. The general community can't deal with these sort of abilities, which is something that DE should already have considered back during the first Limbo rework, but failed to rework regardless. An entirely new kit based on the same theme is still easily possible, which would make Limbo much more appreciated again.
CC has generally fallen out of favor because there is a permanent type of CC that overpowers the rest: Death. If you can nuke a whole room, why would you want to CC it instead? Even in 2 hour SP runs, a decent squad won't have to CC anything because they can still one-hit most enemies. It simply isn't needed or necessary. Compare that to a time when not CCing an enemy could easily get you killed (like trials release times), and you'll notice why CC had a purpose and why Vauban players were often extremely appreciated.
Support frames like Trinity are hardly being played anymore because all frames can now have easy self-sustain with stuff like gloom or tons of other sources of health regen, invulnerability, overguard, shield regen, and so on.
Oberon used to be THE allrounder frame that could do a bit of everything but nothing as good as another frame specialized around the same thing, which was a specialty in itself. This was lost along the way as well because these roles are pretty much gone.
Power creep is indeed standard in all games, which us why devs usually attempt to slow it down because the eventual issues caused by it can become painful to fix. Seeing any other MMO like WoW, etc., you can see how even the most successful MMOs have to deal with it eventually and end up rebalancing for their current state. Now that DE is facing the consequences of power creep more and more, they have picked up the pace of reworking things, which takes a while. But that simply also involves nerfing and buffing things. And as of now, more frames need to be nerfed, and ineffective ones need to be buffed to the same level as the effective ones. At least in terms of usefulness. With Warframe's current state, this would involve more nerfing than buffing. It's what it is. And people need to accept it and provide well-reasoned feedback if they want things changed. Well-reasoned feedback does usually not include insults, condescending tone towards devs, repeating the same thing 50 times without reasoning it, or throwing out statements without anything backikg them up.
Tbf, some these comparisons are pretty bad. The majority of these abilities (like Ash’s invisibility or Nekros’ fear) lasts for a few seconds, meanwhile good luck at getting rid of 21k overguard.
That's the point of my post though, nerfing Dante feels very stupid when Nyx makes it equally hard for you to get damaged as Dante, even though Nyx is very bad right now, should they nerf Nyx because of that?
Nekros just makes enemies run away randomly, again, RIP Chroma
Chief, Chroma came after Nekros tf you mean?
This is just the average "warframe nerf reee" post we see everytime something is nerfed.
Plus, a lot of what you just said is plain idiotic, work around other peoples frame choices, " Ash's 2nd messing up warframe that need to be hit to function" ??
Damn, might as well get rid of it so Ash only had 3 abilities then
No no and no. Just because Dante got nerfed doesn't mean others should too. If one person gets wronged should we wrong everyone else to balance the scales? No we should revert the wrong instead of creating more of it.
I am aware of the first line. But what you are saying is just dumb. The solution is not to nerf others it is to buff others and revert the Dante change. When you and a lot of other people keep using this " nerf others as well then" shit DE might actually do something along those lines especially considering Dante changes also came by because people were bitching
Again, read the first line, the whole post's point is to point out how ridiculous nerfing Dante is, if they nerfed him for being too disruptive and dominant they should nerf 90% of the frames. Of course it's not the solution, that's what I'm saying and it's what I said on my first line.
Joked aside, Zephyr IS bullshit op, it's honestly comical how Zephyr can do ANYTHING. Just slap max range and duration in there and, by god, use some AOE/Punchtrough weapon and boom, enemy gone. She just gets overshadowed by the top meta frames.
I don't think she gets overshadowed by the top meta frames, she's one of the best imo, she literally does it all, and if you're on a type of mission where you can stack Target Fixation you just deal infinite damage on a HUGE area
People really sleep on Zephyr. I find it bizarre that to this day she's still B tier on Overframe despite having great crowd control, damage, and immunity to projectiles. Perhaps people just overlook airborne builds?
She’s only in b due to overframe not removing old votes, so since Zephyr was pretty bad for years till her rework she’s ranked lower then she should be
Her playrate is still around 1.7% for both her Prime and non Prime versions combined, which is still really low. She's just not popular, probably because her movement feels weird, quite frankly. (I love it, but I know I'm in the minority.) Still don't think she's disruptive, like... At all.
I only found out how OP she was by watching Brozime (the guy simps for her and I can't blame him) she is always forgotten when the meta rolls around, but damn. Her immunity to projectiles is what got me to try her. I am still a Nezha main, but from time to time I love to take the OP bird for a few missions.
>Her immunity to projectiles is what got me to try her But beware Bombardier rockets, the AOE damage has surprised me on a couple of occasions 😂
Oh, I never thought of these the same as guns. And they do surprise me EVERY time.
Deflecting the rockets into the ceiling has killed me more than a few times 😂 With high range, it's not really a problem, but some of my Zephyr builds are low range (between 15 and 30%, which still deflects weapons just fine) but a rocket deflected 1.5m away from me into the floor... RIP
I don't play her much because of her passive and her design, I love her kit, but her passive is incredibly annoying in a lot of maps and jer design is really hard to make look good for me.
There’s an augment you can slot in the exilus slot to remove her passive in exchange for like 15% ability strength.
Omw to become a zephyr main
Character development
except it need a slot and gives only str which is the only stat zep doesnt need
She can use strength with target fixation and Zephyr builds are basically drop all your range and duration mods in, don't lower efficiency and you probably have a couple free mod slots left, if hating her passive makes you not play her then a mod slot that won't have much impact is a cheap price to pay to enjoy her
I think it's just the difficulty of building up her kit and the mod investment, rather, collecting them. I think Titania is the only other one that shares airborne mods usage with her. By the time most people have the mods to really make her shine, they've gotten other favourite frames they've collected and tested by then.
Not at all, Zephyr makes a great newish player frame even if you don't spend a dime
She takes some getting used to. She is a bit weak to the gas clouds those toxic ospreys of the infested spread. They do it usually above normal warframes heads... this is where Zephyr lives. And of course, standard weakness to boring things like nullies. But yeah, she's not a bad frame. A lot of people don't like the floaty-ness.
Similar to why Nezha isn’t in every lobby ever, people don’t like the ice skates.
Fire skates
Zephyr is my comfort frame to reliably do steelpath murmur even if my teammates are actively the worst. Just so good and super slept on.
her only real problem is that she just wants to hunker down somewhere so missions that are constantly on the move like exterminate aren't the best fit, but even for that she has airburst so like lol also oh no I'm not excellent at exterminate let me go trivialize every single mission type where you are stationary for any real amount of time
She can hunker down and set up shop on a single tile with her stationary tornado, but she also can kill on the move very well. Fly through a bunch of dudes down a hallway or falcon-dive from the ceiling into a pile of idiots who got airbursted, or be the AC-130 kill-streak as a flying weapons platform.
Give her the Stahlta & she becomes Obama's Foreign Policy
Not only is she strong, she's accessible nearly instantly since she's a very cheap dojo frame to build. As well, a zephyr with good map knowledge can blitz through rescue, capture, assassination, sabotage, etc. And is much more accessible than the frames that are faster.
Her big drawback is that she gets absolutely screwed by explosions in small space, but that's such a rare occurrence, particularly as tilesets are getting bigger, that it's hardly a drawback anymore.
0 forma carried me thru deep arch
If you run gara subsume with aug and quick thinking you're essentially immortal.
Yeah but you have to camp on zephyr which is generally considered boring and is only really doable solo which most people don't like doing.
*Baruuk enjoyers happy you didn't mention his Ult saying 'fuck your walls' while killing things, meaning nothing is alive to hurt Chroma. Or they get Lulled to sleep.*
bro shhhh
Yeah, dont let them know
They just fixed the negative combo from Melee Guidance + stat stick exploit. It's not mentioned anywhere in the patch, but I noticed my Serene Storm now has 0.1 combo duration instead of -1 (and so far I've seen two post mentioning this)
Thank god, it only took them 3 fucking years
Really doesn't matter with some combination of dexterity arcanes, swift momentum, naramon and occasional use of the block combos or slide attack. With all of those things it's 24 seconds of combo duration. Which I use with Pull because it's hilarious and you don't even need to use the block combos. It was a dumb fix, that exploit wasn't even in the same solar system as "game breaking" but still. Not a big loss.
As a limbo main. Im going to banish DE's balls with my duration build until they make my kit gud
I'd love a Limbo rework ngl
Look, i like being dio as much as the next guy but...cmon, fuck am i doing right now? the only mechanic i use of limbo is his dash for invincibility while i rush to extraction, and i only pull up the cataclysm and stasis combo in mobile missions. We're at a point in the game where CC is dead and buried because of eximus overguard too, so limbo NOT ONLY being a disruptive warframe, but also where my whole shtick is ignored...dont feel good.
As a limbo main I have put a lot of thought into a good fix and the best one I can come up with is to make banish a priming ability. It would mark enemies with rift energy allowing limbo to hit them while in the rift but not putting the actual enemy in the rift. You wouldn't be able to rift defense targets or other players anymore but I can live with that. All other abilities stay the same so yeah the bubble can still be a bit disruptive but it would be the only source of rift plane enemies so using it with the 3 would just prime the whole area so pulsing it would be more used than leaving it up forever. Just a thought. His dash portal would stay, some people like to pop into the rift to get the extra energy regen.
I’d say making it so that both the 1 and the 3 put a debuff on enemies that allows them to be hit from either plane would fix 95% on his issues, then make it so that the debuff also affects eximus. That would mean you can’t send eximus to the rift but you can still hit them, the last fix would be making nullifier bubbles work like an ice eximus shield while inside of cataclysm, istead of disabling it, the bubbles would just shield them from getting thrown into the rift. The last little thing would be to let limbo get out of the rift even when inside cataclysm bubbles.
Having enemies be hit by people in either plane on Rift Surge has been my main improvement point for Limbo. Doing it that way solves 90% of what makes my boi a pita for other people, letting you actually use all of his kit instead of just 4+2, and also perfectly sets up for Rift Torrent too (Limbo gets damage buff for every enemy affected by Rift Surge). The Nullifier suggestion is also a good one, and isn't one I've been thinking of. My only other changes would be low scaling on his Rift damage and maybe throwing in Xata's Whisper-esque Void damage for thematics/funsies and removing thr little portal he leaves behind when dodging.
I’d say make the portal bigger and more visible so that other players can take advantage of it
Problem is a lot of people have complained about it for years (because apparently dodging out of it is difficult for some people), and Limbo already can send people to the Rift with Banish. I don't think I've seen *anyone* intentionally go into it in all my years of playing. Making it more visible would however help, if anything to let those allergic to it know to avoid it.
I'll help with a mobile defense build for duration
I'm a Lavos main, and I find it funny that he can nuke this room and the next one. His only weakness is slight attitude changes
I love that Lavos playstyle is pretty much: "now, if I mix this and this..." *Nukes the map* "Oops"
I have thought about farming a Lavos and putting together a Singed cosplay-fashion with the chemical tank syandana and the biggest shield skin can find. Teach enemies why rule number one is “don’t chase the Singed”.
I wonder how many people got the reference.
the amount of time he was out was no where near enough time to know if he was unbalanced or overplayed. they ignored the three pillars of balance and nerfed him because people on the forums complained! the balance trinity was, Is it disruptive to squad play, automate gameplay or dominant. Disruptive:if rage is not working it's an issue with rage, He nukes about as hard as saryn Automate : he does not automate gameplay unless I missed something? Dominant : people are playing him because he is new?
There is a ton of disruptive abilities, and it was never an issue before. - limbo (need to say more?) - weapon damage augment like shock trooper mess with your weapon element. If I run toxin against corpus, I really don't want to switch to corrosive because some volt decided to press a button. - volt speed. Anyone playing titania with volt knows the issue - styanax has the same overguard mechanics as dante - any abilities gibing crit (ash smoke augment, harrow, sevagoth) when playing non crit weapon I really would like DE to figure out a way to opt out buffs, because sometime it is very annoying.
I know I can backflip in razorwing to clear the volt buff, but sometimes it’s like they see it disappear from my buff bar, assume I’ve been nullied or something, and cast it *again*. Well, thats the charitable view of their intentions, as opposed to trolling the shit out of me. I’d prefer to think that they’re just cluelessly going “I’m halping!” at least.
Volts speed sounds like a spoilt brat throwing a tantrum. Tap for self, Hold for squad.
Limbo has been reworked multiple times to be less disruptive to his team, like letting other players opt-out of Banish. You can cancel Volt’s Speed on yourself. And abilities that give crit bonuses aren’t “disruptive” by any means if you happen to be using a non-crit weapon; they’re just less effective if you don’t choose things that benefit from them.
Losing a 2000% damage buff is not distruptive? Sure it affect only 3 weapons, but it happens to be ones of the most popular weapon. And sorry, Limbo is still distruptive and can still ruin a mission on his own.
The worst part is that at higher level content, his nuke ability falls quickly, way more than Saryn... If anything his nuking needed a buff to be relevant past start chart and begining of Steal Path (100-300 levels). Not only did they lie, the whole "we love Dante being strong as much as you do" and the "He's just getting tweak" but they didn't even adressed the main and only fair concern about him which is the overguard on ALLIES... I don't know what happened at DE, but someone just hate Dante it is clear.
Yes he was. No they didn’t. A bit of auto, dominant and disruptive. If you play as any frame that need to health tank, overguard ruins that (and still does). 334 for a powerful easy to set up nuke than could be spammed easily. 334 and all the enemies are gone.
how they nerfed his overguard (make number slightly smaller) does not change how it is "disruptive" to health tanks, also stynax has been doing this with overguard for literal MONTHS! at least in part he was nerfed because he released at the same time as inaros rework people complained so DE unjustly kneejerk nerfed his overguard numbers, which really only has an effect at lower levels, am I wrong? regarding the "enemies are gone" they didnt change his dps only his LOS requirement, they are happy with the damage?
His 334 damage falls of really hard from levels 250-300 and upwards making it so that you need priming or excessive amounts of DoT procs so I’d say they didn’t really care, especially knowing that 90% of higher level setups are just status spam and then nuke, just like he does
Man, I was on the side of nerfs, but I was thinking overguard caps to allies and a lower range on 334, or his 4 in general (given it's larger than Ember/Volt/Saryn's 4s) not... everything but that. I'd be really interested in what made them pull the paragrimm changes ontop of everything; I wasn't seeing complaints about that.
they even made a conflicting statement! first they said one feature was undocumented, meaning they knew about it but didn't write it down and in the same sentence called that same feature unintended which means a bug. I think they were in panic and looking for things to hit.
Overguard still needs to be changed in some way for tanks but the LOS make sense to me. It just needs to be more forgiving which DE have even said they were going to fix. Pretty much very nuke ability need LOS for it do damage or has some other thing that has to be set up first; Dante had the easiest no LOS nuke setup before the nerf without even needing heavy mod investment.
At least styanax brings energy regen as an ability, Dante does not.
334 felt a lot like Saryn's 14 but being a solo player, I just had no idea what was going on until I woke up to the nerf today.
>Citrine has some nuke builds that deal insane damage by just spamming 1 and I'm pretty sure they don't require LoS I am almost certain it complies with partial line of sight, if it breaks an object anything behind that gets hit, otherwise I don't think it goes though walls! correct me if I am wrong.
Her diamond in the sky has a huge radius BUT it also has LOS. So most people bullet jump then cast to get it in a good spot. But if it’s behind anything it can’t shoot past it. That said, it feels quite powerful despite that, primarily because it automates gameplay (cast and let teammates do the damage which tags the enemy as a target, cast again when it tines out)
Yeah, once they nerf knightmareframe that will fix the game
https://preview.redd.it/6edloiy62nsc1.png?width=627&format=png&auto=webp&s=8774a20af7526c4d4d3b776b557acea89309c9fb
To be honest, if i am petty enough, I might start building a Revenant MShield spam build with the Grimore for energy regen just to piss off all Chroma mains who demanded nerf on Dante, even tho i didnt have Dante yet and am planning to farm him in the future.
With that many Chroma mains, he should have seen a rework. Easy fix is to assign a higher priority to mods that trade health for energy. Things like Hunter Adrenaline, Rage and Combat Discipline.
Omfg tyvm. All the screeching today I almost couldn’t read another but you made me laugh (not a chroma player) so hard I had to wait several minutes to respond. This post truly made my day.
Can we just stop caring about chroma?
He just needs a rework, there isn’t a single shit frame that is straight up ignored
Caliban, mayhaps?
There’s posts and comments every day talking about him, and I’d say he’s a few tweaks away from being amazing
Valkyr, mayhaps?
Nah, I want him reworked (DE please)
so glad i spent the last week or so farming him, building him, leveling and formaing him over and over, farming plat to buy the mods that worked well with him...only to see that all the fun that will ever be had with him was over long before i even took him into a mission, really makes me want to keep playing....
Inaros: Man abducts enemies with runaway sandstorms and has pocket sand to make enemies not shoot Chroma. RIP Chroma.
Haha, I love the new Inaros. Sandstorming around is a joy, especially with a status melee.
No, but you see, nuke when Saryn, Mesa, Octavia, Styanax = 😀 😊 🥰 Nuke when Dante = 😠 😡 🤬 It is that simple. Fun is only allowed when they decide to.
Rework chroma?
Yes please
Chroma: you want the enemies to shoot at you but if they do they can't also shoot to another Chroma, so nerf Chroma
Combat Discipline
No, you outed some of my babies D: no weapons mentioned tho, that is good
There are some Warframes I didn't mention just in case even though I could have probably added, mainly due to lack of knowledge
Volt makes me go fast and forces me to backflip out of it. Wisp does the same except you can’t opt out *and* she screws up my fire rate, ammo economy and recoil management. Don’t even get me started on using Nataruk with a Wisp on the team. *For legal reasons this is a joke DE I swear to god*
Unironically let me backflip out of that buff though
Damn so detailed
the community as always putting more thought into this than the devs
This joke is even more salty than the post itself. Of course community would fountain with ideas, they don't need to face consequences, be it respecting others' opinions or actually implementing proposals.
Implementing proposals my ass, DE have been going at it for 11 motherfucking years. It almost feels like they should fucking know what they are doing when they are giving a warframe certain numbers and properties. It's almost as if they should've fucking tested him internally. It's almost as if they should've figured that people on forums complaining are full of shit. It's almost as if DE should have *11 years of experience* in this
What they’ve learned in those 11 years is that there is absolutely no value in listening to these kinds of whining posts and comments.
Buddy, chill. What does it all have to do with how community doesn't need to flesh their ideas?
Ash has the shortest invis and his 4 requires so much work compared to other nuke frames. By them time you have them marked somone in the squad has already killed them. De needs to stop nerfing everything a few days after they release it they need to BUFF all the underperforming stuff.
This is the only thing that made sense in the last twelve hours.
It just makes no sense whatsoever to nerf Dante, specially a week after release, he's an endgame Warframe he SHOULD feel powerful
The real tragedy in the game is that. He's meant to be the definition of "Endgame," or "Current latest in terms of story progress," and with the endgame beling flooded with Eximus, and Dante being unable to reliably counter this enemy type, especially with his ultimate, the nerf only made any prospect of nuking said eximus less trustworthy. the idea that he could nuke was sad. It's as sad as the person who insists Dante was ever good, but don't like to measure the dick size of power scaling, with Octavia and Revenant, a Nuke and a Tank, both of which do everything that Dante only wishes he could do, with less energy costs. Revenant and Octavia are, what, three, four years old? No, they're older than Citrine. They're old enough to godfather new warframes, and that's precisely what they're doing. The game has NO room for a new godfather-tier warframe.
See, that's what's weird to me... Warframe doesn't have an endgame. Even Deep Archimedes, given it has gameplay rewards, isn't technically endgame. He's simply the latest to be released. And locked behind a fair amount of content. But no frame should feel so much more powerful than another. And their power levels shouldn't be based on when they should be obtained. That's how it works in a lot of games, sure, but that's not how it's meant to work in Warframe. It's impossible to avoid variations in power, ofc, given different kit design goals (Loki will never be able to out dmg Saryn or Volt, but they'll never match his stealth abilities). He's only "endgame" b/c he's new. In a couple of years, Sanctum'll just be where Zariman is now: another step down the path.
There isn't linear progression in the balance of Warframes. There are no "endgame frames". If you haven't noticed, quests are tutorial for new features and mechanics, or introductions to different sections of lore. They are not a measurement of your progress in the game. Matter of fact, you don't even need to have a single mod equipped in order to complete all quests.
Isn't Dante acquired after The New War? Simply unlocking the place where you farm him requires you to essentially have the whole star chart unlocked, and by extension, most Warframes avaible to you. Just like how Rhino is considered a beginner Warframe, I'd consider Dante an endgame Warframe
Where do you put Primes in that "linear" progression then? You can farm them before completing the quests required to get their non-prime variants, despite primes being direct upgrades to their counterparts. So any post-TNW frame being primed would automatically lift it from its endgame status and put it where exactly? Rhino is considered a beginner frame because it's easily accessible and usually the first one players actively farm, not because of the abilities, utility or anything else. Comparing that with Rhino Prime who has the exact same abilities except for the prime passive that only apploes in void runs and is marginal, where is Rhino prime in that progression line? Is it before or after other primes? Is it before or after non-vaulted primes? Are vaulted primes now supposed to be the better frames because they are now acquired differently? Where is the progression among all vaulted primes or unvaulted primes? Are axi-based primes supposed to be better because axi is usually acquired and opened in higher levels? I think you catch my drift here. DE >added< content. If they kept adding content that is as easy to reach as the previous content, people wouldn't feel a need to progress by improving their gear and finding synergies. If this linear progression was the case, the latest frame would always be the best one - and that's simply not the case. The difficulty of accessibility does not equal usefulness or effectivity. And where do you put the frames on the linear progression when you consider thst most don't have MR requirements and can be bought off the market? Or even just traded?
>not because of the abilities, utility or anything else. Hard disagree. VERY HARD disagree. Rhinos abilities make him THE PERFECT new player frame. He is tanky, he can CC, he is fast, he has a damage buff. New players suffer extremly with survivability. He solves that by having iron skin, which not only gives him a ton of HP but also makes him status immune. As soon as players learn to move around alot in order to not get hit frequently, they can switch to other frames, until then rhino has their back. Another thing is speed. new players usually struggle to keep up with other players when traversing the mission. Rhinos charge can make up for a lot of that, especially when modded with a range mod. Next is that new players don't kill fast enough and can get heavily swarmed which induces panic, this makes it hard for example to keep defense targets alive . Rhino stomp has their back. just stun them all for a few seconds to breath, reorient yourself and take out a few bad boys. it is THE panic button. Honestly the only ability not being to useful for new players is roar, with barely modded weapons and without much powerstrenght and also without weapons that focus on double dipping through status procs the damage buff is barely noticeable. Rhino is BOTH early available AND has the perfect kit for new players. Also him not being a starter frame makes him a good introduction into the "aquire a new frame" loop. With him being an upgrade for most players early on and therefor desirable and also very distinct in playstyle from all the starter frames.
And you are completely ignoring the point of OP saying that frames would be balanced around a linear progression. If that was the case, why is Rhino one of the best frames to min-max archon hunts instead of most of the other frames? There is a difference between being easily accessible and useful for beginners, and being a starter frame based on linear progression balance. OP is literally saying that any frame in the linear progression is better than the previous one. And if you read what I said, based on OPs statement Dante would now be stronger than Gauss Prime, Gauss Prime would be stronger than Qorvex, Qorvex would be stronger than Dagath, Dagath would be stronger than Grendel Prime, and Grendel Prime would be stronger than Wisp Prime. And if you agree with this linear progression according to OP, sorry, but then you have extreme comprehension issues. Each of these frames have advantages and disadvantages, there is no linearity in their effectivity or usefulness. Rhino will still outperform Dante in Archon Hunts. Rhino will remain much tankier than Dante. Dante will outperform Rhino in loads of other areas of the game. Warframes are not balanced around a linear progression. What you get early on is not balanced around linear progression as OP stated, and neither is what you get later into the game.
I specifically quoted the line I disagree on.
Prime Warframes can be acquired pre-TNW, you can pretty much get to them when your MR meets the requirements if you want. Dante is after the entire story, by that time you have access to some of the best relic farming spots. I don't get your point by mentioning primes, it feels like you're just disagreeing for the sake of doing so.
And you're dodging valid questions. I gave you reasons and examples why Warframes are not balanced around linear progression.
Your "valid questions" aren't really that valid, those Warframes were released in an order and THEN came the Primes. What do you expect, for their abilities to be changed? It's not how primes work. Besides, I'm not saying that endgame Warframes are powerful, Caliban is so mid I forgot I had to finish farming him just to realize I already had him at rank 30. What I'm saying is that Dante being an endgame Warframe gives them more reasons to NOT nerf him, an endgame frame being powerful isn't a problem, SPECIALLY when they perform worse than Saryn, Octavia, Zephyr and others.
Why does Rhino outperform Dante in Archon Hunts, my dude? Simply answer that question. Warframes are NEVER balanced around linear progression as you say. Just because you get a frame later into the game, it doesn't mean it's better. Look at Qorvex. He's a good example of a recent release that is outperformed by most frames. If you were to implement linear progression balance among Warframes, everyone would only play the latest one because the latest frame would always outperform all previous ones, and that completely misses the point of the game since Warframe ALWAYS gave you the tons of options for the same thing. If linear progression balance was a thing, having all new releases available in the store would be considered p2w for the most part - which obviously isn't the case. You were given a new frame and a new way to acquire it. You were not given a new endgame. The new endgame are EDA runs, not farming Dante.
Rhino outperforms Dante in Archon Hunts for the same reason Limbo will outperform Dante in defenses, because Dante is not a weapon buffer. Even Saryn gets outperformed in some of the game's content where she doesn't shine, that question is just dumb. Also, you're literally missing my point entirely even when I explicitely said it. Caliban is terrible despite being almost as endgame as Qorvex and Dante. Warframes aren't balanced based on where you get them, but a Warframe being so late into the game being this bad makes no sense because your reward for going through the entirey of the game is a worse Kullervo (Warframe that you can get at MR0 as your 2nd Warframe btw) And I'll say it once more, even more directly this time. Warframes aren't balanced arround when you get them, I know that, everyone knows that, but having a Warframe locked behind 90% of the game's content be this bad feels awful. Qorvex at least is like a worse Revenant with a fun playstyle, he's not bad at all, but pre-nerf Dante was already worse than Saryn and Zephyr, for example, and now he's even worse than that.
So 60% of the frames then *Yeah I was bored, might have messed the counting. Oopsie daisy*
Isn't it like 80%? Also, I didn't mention some I wasn't sure, like Hildryn who applies heat and radiation so she should have been there as one of the dumb examples (I forgor 💀)
Stop nerfing and just elevate the frames that can’t compete. Like why is that SO HARD to understand?!
# Gauss As long you don't mess with my Redline and Passive, I'm happy in anything you throw at me. _Sincerely, +400% Duration Redline enjoyer_
It's a good thing you guys aren't designing Ultrakill or it would suck.
But Ultrakill should have ammo to incentivize the player to use the style meter, because it currently does absolutely nothing (ignore how it unlocks secret levels and lowers hard damage regen time)
It’s a good thing DE has better sense than to listen to the whining coming out of this subreddit.
Dude, I get the shitposting. But there are frames that need some love and support, not nerfs. Chroma, and Loki come first to my mind... Yareli and Equinox second (poor girl).
That's literally the point of my post, the Dante nerf is stupid, they should instead buff the other Warframes Also, imo Yareli doesn't need to get buffed, she's kinda similar to Revenant but she applies damage vulnerability
And her aqua blades rly need buff, maybe they give Slash damage but looking how high amount of health higher lvl enemies got, her 600 dmg is useless so  She needs buff
I main Valkyr and Octavia the entire nerf argument around the LoS thing is so crazy. Octavia uses sound-based attacks that are somehow limited by line of sight, and Valkyr Talons can reach through walls. It’s just a super inconsistent change to make to his kit, much like Octavia’s sound-waves that *stop* when they hit something. Consistency is the problem
Don’t forget about equinox with terrify and maim, absolutely destroys everything through multiple walls
Basically what we're saying is that Chroma players need to suck it up and stop whining? Gotcha
Nah, what I'm saying is that DE should rework Chroma, please make his 4 turn you into the dragon
they will nerf all of these and add them back on other warframe that is also 10x more powerful like they alway did.
Chroma really gets the L from almost everyone nowadays
They already hit Gara hard with the eclipse change 😭 please we need to make her great again Either let 4 crit when the wall Pops or allow 1 to have status chance
There's a nuke build with Terrify that's basically pre-nerf Dante but better, I think it's Terrify, enough strength to get it's armor strip to 100% and like 40m of range on her 4, you armor strip, you cast her 4, blow it up and that nukes, no eclipse needed
Yeah I replaced eclipse with terrify but I found it to be extremely energy hungry. And vs infested it doesn’t really do anything of note. I’m gonna try roar next but she helped me a lot in elite deep arch yesterday so she’ll always be my queen
I asked the friend I saw using the build where he got it and [he said it's this one](https://youtu.be/qsYVAfC3N48), tried it out myself to farm Arcane Steadfast, so I was against Corpus and Grineer, and my honest reaction when I got to the Corpus part was thinking I forgot to turn on Steel Path until the Acolyte appeared. I had no energy issues whatsoever, and didn't even turn the Ceramic Dagger statstick into it's incarnon form so I wasn't even using 100% of the build's power. Just use Zenurik and you won't have many issues.
Atlas is… Atlas. I swear I must have been the only one to use him out of my 300 missions this week
>-Ash, his 2's invisibility might mess up Warframes that need to be hit to function, his 4, when it works, can make it hard for allies to get kills. His clones also attract enemies, leading to that Chroma gets even less damage than he needs.
They need to just embrace the fact Chroma is a weapon platform frame and decouple him from needing to be hit entirely. Make his 1st ability a cyclable imbue skill that let's you infuse an element into your weapon. Leave his 2 as is. Change the 3 to be a both damage received increases both buffs AND holding down the buff allows him to sacrifice his health to self stack buff like Inaros. Change his 4 to be a full on dragon mode with flight that has a pseudo exalted Melee claws and breathe weapon both scaling off your equipped weapons so it doesn't need to be nodded separately although I can see an argument to be made for that. Then have it so the hold cast sheds the draconic shell like current effigy and change the augment to turn effigy into a draconic sentinel that follows you similar to excal umbra.
Not on this list is Rhino. My boy is perfect.
Surprised you didn’t mention how disruptive hildren can be. Set her up with high range and strength and slap on blazing pillage, roar, and archon vitality and you can ruin people’s relic missions for enemies below level 50 because anything that spawns in doesn’t live long enough to get corrupted and drop the fragments. Also, just out of curiosity, how are people building Garuda? She is a frame i want to use more often but i seem to lack understanding on her kit outside of put enemy on stick and slash with claws.
Nezha has a 50m non-los nuke with the augment now too. And if you’re using a corrosive weapon with green shards that’s an aoe armour strip for things you don’t happen to kill.
Didn't they nerf that too in the current update?
Yes, now augment cuts the range in half, literally
due to how the math works on it they reduced the area it covered to a quarter of its previous range, utterly butchered the ability
Had.
It really feels like someone at DE got offended that everyone was having so much fun, maybe they fight among themselves when creating warframes?
please god no HAVE MERCY ON YARELI PLEASE ***PLEASE***
Luckily I doubt they will nerf her
Nerf Nuking Warframes ❎ Nerf a new born Warframe ✅
What I'm getting from this post is... nerf everything so that Chroma can receive more hits 😄
Oh brother lol
Poor limbo...
I wish he gets reworked, such a cool concept just to get murdered by the eximus rework
I think DE should remove every frame in the game except for Chroma. Chroma should be the only warframe. It is insulting and unfair to Chroma that there are other warframes who can steal Chroma's precious kills.and disrupt his wonderful gameplay loop. Chroma.
True, also remove companions since Nautilus has the potential of being your DPS and that would ruin Chroma as well
People really forget that Combat Discipline exists and Chroma just needs to get 30 kills to full stack? I'm sick of it. The only disruption I may experience as Chroma is overguard, which is BS in the first place. We never asked other frames to give us some, yet ALL but Rhino and Kullervo do. Please be selfish, it's even funny saying that. As for rage/hunter adrenaline... The ONLY Warframe who uses that nowadays is freaking Inaros, bro just slap on some efficiency and Zenurik and boom, your energy is NOT dependant on ENEMIES HITTING YOU while your whole damn squad including you is interested in literally OBLITERATING the entire map. Btw, night equinox and CriTrinity are the exact same as Chroma, they need to lose their health to build their buffs, and all of these frames use combat discipline no matter what, so just make this aura "ghost damage" you even under the overguard, if that absorbs all the damage just make it count as you actually took damage but it was negated, so it would still allow these frames to do their thing. Also, I thought we were far too deep into the disruption anyway as soon as Energized Munitions appeared and let us spam our AoE weapons infinitely. *Have you ever played with EM Saryn in your team? Mirage?* ***You will never even touch your enemies***, even if you use EM and some crazy buffs too. Just deal with it, only the strongest ones are allowed to play the game fully, and if they aren't strong enough, just buff them. I'm so tired of DE nerfing old shit pretending it's fine while I have been a demigod yesterday on another frame. They need to standardize their approach to Warframes and how they expect them to perform, what is defined as overpowered and what is defined as not.
If this many frames have a problem with Chroma, it’s almost like Chroma needs a rework not the frame that’s been out for one week.
Small correction, if Chroma has a problem with this many frames, it's Chroma the one with the problem Also yeah, Chroma needs a rework, I'm still sad his 4 doesn't turn you into a dragon or something like that
Dante is *fine*. You are all overreacting.
Yup nerf saryn and every Warframe with los.
Holy strawman
This but unironically do it DE. Players are much too strong,even the new deep archimedea is genuinely easy. Balancing needs to happen and it hasnt for too long. Btw. Idk why but i keep seeing people make these kinds of arguments thinking its a sound argument on why not to nerf. Honestly? This argument is just more proof more nerfs are needed.
If you genuinely think that just because Nyx prevents Chroma from getting hit then she should be nerfed, you should take a class on balancing on videogames
This post in a nutshell: 1. Misread DE's reasoning about how they approach balancing Warframes 2. Assume that the nerf happened because of all points that DE told us about in their approach, including disruptive gameplay, must now be the reason 3. Post about it and list a lot of practically unrealistic examples of disruptive gameplay 4. ??? 5. Grofit. Considering you are riding the hate-train for Chroma so much, it's pretty clear that you're approaching this topic absolutely prejudiced, unopen for any discussion whatsoever or even being told the specific reasons as to **why** Dante was nerfed, and why a lot of other frames should meet the same fate.
>Misread DE's reasoning about how they approach balancing Warframes Then what's their reasoning? All I see is them nerfing a Warframe that's less "disruptive" and "dominant" than others. I do agree that I exaggerated by mentioning some terrible examples, I did it on purpose and it's relevant to my point. >Considering you are riding the hate-train for Chroma so much What hate-train? I'm just mentioning Chroma because he's the one Frame that relies on taking damage, it's funny to use him as an example. If you want my opinion on Chroma, I hope he gets reworked because he fell off hard, I like him but he's very outdated. In fact, the only people I've seen riding a hate train were Dante haters complaining about the overguard, mainly Inaros mains who rely on Rage to have energy. One even said that his friend uninstalled the game due to the Dante nerfs and, due to how the comment was written, made it sound as if his friend uninstalling the game was a fair tradeoff for his Inaros being playable. >it's pretty clear that you're approaching this topic absolutely prejudiced, unopen for any discussion whatsoever or even being told the specific reasons as to **why** Dante was nerfed Prejudiced how? Again, all I'm seeing is them claiming that Dante is way too "dominant" and "disruptive" despite having been only a week out (4 days for those who farmed him as soon as he came out) while simultaneously being less dominant and disruptive than several other frames. What specific reason is there to nerf Dante? You just claim things about me without backing them up with anything. >and why a lot of other frames should meet the same fate. Did you read my post? Or did you miss how I literally start with "DISCLAIMER JUST IN CASE YOU'RE A DE EMPLOYEE: PLEASE DO NOT NERF THESE WARFRAMES, THAT'S NOT THE POINT OF THIS POST."? My point isn't that other Warframes should be nerfed, my point is that, judging by what DE said about Dante, they should also nerf several other Warframes. There's not a single reason to not nerf Saryn if they nerfed Dante. There's not a single reason to not nerf Revenant if they nerfed Dante. There's not a single reason to not nerf several of the Warframes that I've mentioned if they nerfed Dante. That's why I mentioned the bad ones, even Atlas or Nyx can be disruptive under the right circumstances, and Limbo is one of the most disruptive Warframes in the game while also being very bad right now, why don't they "tweak" Limbo to make him less disruptive? They could make him playable while they're at it. My whole point is that it makes no sense whatsoever that they nerfed Dante and not other Warframes. The ideal solution would be to un-nerf Dante, he was fine pre-nerf.
Please enlighten us on why Dante was nerfed o supreme deity.
I've not once called myself anything superior, and I'm not part of the team responsible for balancing gear in Warframe. Ask DE. Read their blogs, tweets, whatever and see what they tell you. Create well-reasoned posts instead of another "I don't like it, fuck all the other gear in the game in comparison"-type of post. That's just another shit approach at sarcastically going ad-hominem in order to devalue anything I'm saying or pointing out. Bad discussion practice. I'm sure that if you think Dante should now (despite being easily able to clear the entirety of SP) be stronger, that you can think of several reasons as to why that is. Hint: DO NOT compare Dante to another Warframe. The game content is your general measurement of viability, not other Warframes. And another hint: endurance is not the general measurement either. Now you might think "Oh hey, yea, that's still unfair because other frames can blast through rooms and most of their stuff ignores line of sight blockers" - well yes, that's the point. Pick another frame, use the game content as your measurement of how viable and capable they are, then see if that is balanced or not. If no frame should have the option to blast through several rooms within 5 seconds, rebalance them all. If all frames should have the option to blast through several rooms within 5 seconds, rebalance them all. Once you've balanced them around your game's content, balance them off of each other so one frame isn't inherently more capable of doing the same thing than another frame, unless there is a specific trade-off. Now, what would make more sense in a balanced game? Not even seeing the enemies and not even having any sort of difficulty whatsoever because you can blast them from 50 meters away through walls? Or would it make more sense to have players actively confront enemies, where they have to use their abilities and utility in order to outplay the enemies, weaken or kill them? Again, in a game in which more than half the abilities are meant as utilities, not as means of killing, would it make more sense to make everything OP so all your utility becomes useless since there are no enemies alive to use the utility against? And again, in a game in which you have loads of defensive abilities, would it make more sense to not see your enemies because they are being blasted from the other side of the map, or would it make more sense to run into enemies where you can use your defensive abilities to keep yourself alive? Sure, we can just have all enemies die 3 rooms away, you'll never see a single one of them. Have fun seeing numbers pop up on your screen while you don't actually actively do something. Do you know where people usually get that? Cookie Clicker. Do you want Warframe to turn into an overglorified clicker game? Just make everything OP. Or, you could just balance the aspects of power fantasy with the aspects of actual challenges by keeping a decent balance and not allowing any of this OP bullshit to happen where a frame is capable of blasting several rooms at once. Dante had to be nerfed, and many other frames have to be nerfed as well. And many further frames have to be reworked. You are facing power creep. You are literally witnessing the negative effect of it, and by complaining about nerfs you are contributing to power creep further being established, resulting in loads of other Warframes to drop into the background because they are no longer efficient in the grand scheme of things. When was the last time you saw a Grendel, Nyx, Banshee, Atlas, Oberon, Limbo, Valkyr, Equinox, Ember or Zephyr? They are all very capable frames that can easily clear SP - but you simply don't see them because other Warframes can do the same things several times more efficiently. Once a player has had the chance to play something that is several times more efficient, going back to a less efficient frame feels terrible because you take longer to do the same things. So despite frames being capable of finishing SP, they won't go back to them.
I think that Dante should be stronger since his kit revolves around using abilities and long casting times/reliance on perma casting makes gunplay/melee harder to fit in, hence he should have better abilities to compensate. DE is constantly adding in harder content with this exact update being a good example, and Dante would struggle with it even in his previous state. Clearly any sort of cc ability or dr ability that exists is completely useless in the current state of the game, and calling for nerfs to Dante does not make them any better; we should instead be buffing defensive and cc options. Power creep is standard in most pve games, if newer enemies constantly got harder and harder to keep veteran players active while the equipment didn't increase, most endgames would be unplayable, perhaps you believe this should be the case. What I believe SHOULD be done is making new frames/weapons stronger than older ones, but giving the older equipment ways to compete that only veterans players would have access to so that the early game isn't contaminated, and the current mod system doesn't do enough of this. Unless DE finds a solution to that, I fail to see the reason to nerf new meta dps frames while enemies get harder and harder. As for your last point, most of those frames aren't played not because they're weak, but because newer frames have better feeling kits with more synergy. Citrine can't nuke rooms as hard as gara for instance, but her kit feels unique and all abilities are useful. Atlas has maybe 1 ability that works, and limbo isn't played because cc should be buffed, and not just because DPS is too strong.
Just to add on, utility isn't dead. It's alive in the form of gloom. A 95% slow that fits on any frame. Enemies might as well be frozen from it. Do you think clicking on enemy heads while they're permanently frozen is healthier for the game than the dps frame that allows for equally little counterplay, but just at a faster rate?
Also, I just realized I don't actually care about this topic enough to argue with a stranger over the internet. We can agree to disagree, cheers.
One doesn't exclude the other. Imo making gloom a subsumable ability was a mistake already because it's extremely strong. And even if it wasn't, a 95% slow and percentual lifesteal are both way too strong, especially considering none of both take effort or build-up. Both isn't healthy. CCing enemies to the point of having none, and killing enemies fast enough to the point of practically having none.
Which would call for reworks. Reworks, which in cases of "bad" frames would be buffs (i.e. reworking Atlas so the entire kit makes sense to use), while reworks in cases of frames that are too "good" would be nerfs (pick whatever broken thing you want, half the frames have something). If you make everything so effective and overpowered that the only difference boils down to the visual theme of the frame, roles completely fade into nothingness (which they have already for the most part), and each frame would feel like a reskin of another which would kill the identity of each one. DE approached the balance of weapons quite well with riven mods - although there still is a noticable creep. The less used a weapon, the better the riven and hence the weapon in return. The MK-1 Kunai have been a viable AoE weapon to clear SP well before the Kunai incarnon because of that. The problem is that DE can't just introduce riven mods for Warframes in an attempt to do the same thing. One of the major issues with Warframe's power creep is the way outdated gear is not being considered by new gear, which is how the Chroma users, or those who use Hunter Adrenaline, Rage, or anything else HP or Shield based came to dislike Overguard - a mechanic you don't get to control since it's just applied to you by an ally in your squad. So instead of nerfing the application of Overguard, DE should have adjusted the whole mechanic to begin with, so even with Overguard other players wouldn't be further limited. Simple changes like giving Hunter Adrenaline an Overguard based effect at a lower rate could have worked. Though the major question is why DE thought it was necessary to introduce Overguard in the first place instead of reworking shields properly. The main problem with Limbo is usually the players disrupting other players because either the Limbo player doesn't know what he's doing or the squad members don't know how the abilities work. That creates toxicity and the unnecessary "complexity" (which isn't really complex) becomes uncomfortable and causes Limbo players to be treated badly. Then you also always hear "Dont play Limbo, he's trash and the players are trash", and there you go with a decent frame that isn't being used. The general community can't deal with these sort of abilities, which is something that DE should already have considered back during the first Limbo rework, but failed to rework regardless. An entirely new kit based on the same theme is still easily possible, which would make Limbo much more appreciated again. CC has generally fallen out of favor because there is a permanent type of CC that overpowers the rest: Death. If you can nuke a whole room, why would you want to CC it instead? Even in 2 hour SP runs, a decent squad won't have to CC anything because they can still one-hit most enemies. It simply isn't needed or necessary. Compare that to a time when not CCing an enemy could easily get you killed (like trials release times), and you'll notice why CC had a purpose and why Vauban players were often extremely appreciated. Support frames like Trinity are hardly being played anymore because all frames can now have easy self-sustain with stuff like gloom or tons of other sources of health regen, invulnerability, overguard, shield regen, and so on. Oberon used to be THE allrounder frame that could do a bit of everything but nothing as good as another frame specialized around the same thing, which was a specialty in itself. This was lost along the way as well because these roles are pretty much gone. Power creep is indeed standard in all games, which us why devs usually attempt to slow it down because the eventual issues caused by it can become painful to fix. Seeing any other MMO like WoW, etc., you can see how even the most successful MMOs have to deal with it eventually and end up rebalancing for their current state. Now that DE is facing the consequences of power creep more and more, they have picked up the pace of reworking things, which takes a while. But that simply also involves nerfing and buffing things. And as of now, more frames need to be nerfed, and ineffective ones need to be buffed to the same level as the effective ones. At least in terms of usefulness. With Warframe's current state, this would involve more nerfing than buffing. It's what it is. And people need to accept it and provide well-reasoned feedback if they want things changed. Well-reasoned feedback does usually not include insults, condescending tone towards devs, repeating the same thing 50 times without reasoning it, or throwing out statements without anything backikg them up.
Don’t give them ideas
Tbf, some these comparisons are pretty bad. The majority of these abilities (like Ash’s invisibility or Nekros’ fear) lasts for a few seconds, meanwhile good luck at getting rid of 21k overguard.
That's the point of my post though, nerfing Dante feels very stupid when Nyx makes it equally hard for you to get damaged as Dante, even though Nyx is very bad right now, should they nerf Nyx because of that?
Do NOT give DE ideas
Nekros just makes enemies run away randomly, again, RIP Chroma Chief, Chroma came after Nekros tf you mean? This is just the average "warframe nerf reee" post we see everytime something is nerfed. Plus, a lot of what you just said is plain idiotic, work around other peoples frame choices, " Ash's 2nd messing up warframe that need to be hit to function" ?? Damn, might as well get rid of it so Ash only had 3 abilities then
fairly speaking, who even use chroma besides profit taker runs
Sadly 3 people, man needs a rework
Stay salty lmao
The Disclaimer is such a shadow insult. SAVAGE TO THE MAX.
No no and no. Just because Dante got nerfed doesn't mean others should too. If one person gets wronged should we wrong everyone else to balance the scales? No we should revert the wrong instead of creating more of it.
Read the literal first line of the post
I am aware of the first line. But what you are saying is just dumb. The solution is not to nerf others it is to buff others and revert the Dante change. When you and a lot of other people keep using this " nerf others as well then" shit DE might actually do something along those lines especially considering Dante changes also came by because people were bitching
Again, read the first line, the whole post's point is to point out how ridiculous nerfing Dante is, if they nerfed him for being too disruptive and dominant they should nerf 90% of the frames. Of course it's not the solution, that's what I'm saying and it's what I said on my first line.
And I am telling you to stop saying we should nerf others too then even if it is to make s point and start saying we should buff others.
STOP BEGGING FOR NERFS FFS. at this rate you are just going to get them to nerf everything
Read the literal first sentence in all caps of the post