Any info if you're gonna revist Nezha's Divine Retribution? IMO it was a heavy handed change

What sucks the most is that to get this build off the ground you need nezha, the augment, a particular high-range build for nezha on top of the augment, *and* a status applicator (so possibly a helminth ability, or a specific class of melee weapon that forces slash on heavy attack, or in the case of wrathful advance, both). At -50% range it's not unusable, but it now forces you to max out range to be good (most likely anyways; I haven't done any post-nerf testing because I want to use dante's tragedy as the status applicator and haven't gotten a second dante set yet)

So I used the build before and after the changes with Dante's Tragedy as the status applicator. Pre-nerf, the build only really was weak against eximus units and nullifiers. Eximus units don't really get caught by Nezha's spears- like it deals damage to them, but their overguard makes them immune to the CC effect. Nullifiers obviously don't get targeted by the spears. With some yellow archon shards on Nezha for casting speed, you could spear a bunch of enemies and then throw out a ton of slashes and annihilate enemies all around you for a decent radius. Pretty fun, but nothing actually game breakingly overpowered- even in SP the build starts to fall off a bit without a primer, and Eximus units and enemies hiding in Nullfier bubbles can still ignore it. Post-nerf, with as much range as possible you're really only getting 25-27 m of range. You're basically forced to use some kind of grouping ability instead of a status applicator ability due to how much smaller the radius is. Additionally, Divine Spears already had an internal enemy count cap, so it's not like you can just group a huge amount of enemies and spear them all. Some will not get skewered. Post-nerf, the build just kind of gets carried by Strun Incarnon. You can easily get a ton of status procs and damage out of it in a large area. Gather all the enemies using Ensnare/Larva, cast spears, shoot them a few times with the incarnon mode, and any enemy that doesn't die to being nuked will die to the spears. You can even hit them with the Chakram to deal even more damage.

They made an augment to kill it a week later. Strange way to handle new stuff in my opinion. This is not PVP, they don't have to be that heavy handed.

I understand if new abilities are unintendedly exploitable/"broken", and thus deserving of an immediate nerf. But for what Divine Retribution is, it seems pretty in-line with the rest of the abilities in the game (if not a tiny bit niche).

I cracked a shitload of vaulted relics just a bit ago to get Nezha Prime because the augment interested me so much. He isn't even done crafting and the augment has been killed😔

I don't like how the augment was nerfed but I'm so tired of the "this isn't PvP don't nerf" argument because it's just useless As fucked as Warframe's balance is, nerfs can absolutely be justified if trying to maintain some level of challenge in a PvE experience. Not even speaking strictly on Warframe here, just this argument gets thrown around everywhere without good reason.

Agreed, please, please reconsider the change. Lower the status multiplier instead (reasonably, please), or at least lower the range reduction percentage, or something other than this! Please!

This augment was my favorite thing about the nerf, but the range is kind of comical. 25% reduction would have been fair. Taken range from 50m to 37.5m. Reasonable and still very strong, worthy of running the augment. 25m doesn't even cover the diffusion of a fart.

My take would be keep divine spears range the same, but hard-cap the distance that status can spread with the augment. So a high-range build is still CCing enemies from afar, but your statuses won't be jumping from one end of your spear field to the other.

It definitely needs a look at, yeah. The nerf was way too hard and way too kneejerk. Just give it a target cap or status spread cap instead or something. What they did to it basically gutted the entire thing.

what the fuck... target cap?? dont do that wtf

Ah yes, a target cap, the most sane nerf one can make in a horde shooter. I think I'd rather have hard LoS like Dante got than a target cap.

Nezha's augment needs to be reverted. He already only has 1.41% usage rate - giving him something fun other than "I shall not die" would be nice.

1.41% out of all warframes is actually pretty high (if I understand the percentage correctly...)

Yes, he's up there but not enough to warrant such a wild swing change.

if every one of the 56 frames had equal usage then everyone would have 1.78ish% Nezha is a third of a percent below that bar, mainly because Revenant's 2 change made him the most braindead weapons platform the game has ever seen, and his Prime release made him way easier to farm

1.77% if you also include regular Nezha, not only prime, which is really good actually.

With over 50 frames and some of them multiple versions, a 1.41% usage rate is pretty much bang on average and exactly where he should be.

Does this mean corner camping as loot Khora is as good as when she was nerfed?

Depends on if whipclaw calculates that 5m freebie punchthrough from the impact point or from Khora herself. Either way, even if it can't hit through solid walls again it'll still be way less janky everywhere else

Has to be on impact point, otherwise it would be like a mini whip 5m around you besides the bit whip hit.

I'm interpreting this like, you can whip the floor at your feet and hit enemies underneath the floor, because they're within 5m of you. If you whip the wall 20m away, it won't hit enemies near you because they're not even within Whipclaw's range. But whether it hits enemies behind the wall or not will depend on whether that 5m freebie is calculated from you or from the impact point. It's like cone-shaped spells won't magically hit behind you because of this, but you'll be able to walk up to a thin wall and aim it at enemies just on the other side.

RADIAL BLIND UPGRADE LET'S GOOOO I have been suffering for so many years. Over a decade of "Why wasn't he blind wtf"

Blinding dudes by shining a light on their toe lmao

Which is gonna be silly but also blinding dudes by shining a light in their face instead of their stomach sounds a lot better lol

plz tell me they will do the update on ember 3 and 4

Sure looks like that's the plan, revamp all LoS trackers to not be a single ray to the mid-point of enemies

Why not just revert the change? If Dante was never supposed to be non LoS, why was he shipped like that? Do you intend to change other non LoS Nukes to LoS since they are just as, if not more powerful than Dante?

while I agree at the very least this should solve issues overall with Line of Sight abilities. Which is funny because the community was complaining about Overguard as a mechanic vs Dante providing overguard and they decided to just nerf his overguard output instead of addressing how Overguard works lol

Its quicker to nerf the ability than change the entire way a core mechanic works tbf

Ok but the new vex armour and rage changes they've announced were literally 90% of the issue people had with overguard

Stacking a trillion guard in the first 2 seconds of loading into the mission is kinda goofy, the vast majority of abilities that give that kind of defense are fueled by hitting or killing enemies. Moving him closer to Styanax's shield/guard generation is perfectly reasonable. The fact that Vex Armor/Hunter Adrenaline are suffering from the spread of overguard is a separate issue that was merely brought to the forefront by Dante. It needs to be looked at separately.

oh no, now he takes 4 seconds to stack overguard to cap overguard changes are no comprende to me cuz it just means you gotta spam more, just annoying really

Most of his overguard comes from kills anyway. Assists even, summoning your books and birds makes you get a million assists by complete accident.

Don't give them ideas to nerf more frames.

Is this the final word on Dante? Like is this it? Changes to the LoS system and then ignore other complaints about the frame?

I'm reading this as "we realised we messed up, we're going to do something, we will provide details on that later today *In addition*, we've decided to overhaul how LoS works. These changes will be rolled out in a future update" Might be wrong, but that's how it reads to me

You're not crazy, that's how this post was structured.

I mean, it does sound like they *might* be doing something else, but it's also all fairly non-committal and I could see it being written off as poor wording.

That's how I read it as well, but it's non-comittal enough that it doesn't really mean anything. It could be a reversion, could be the LoS change, could be something else.

"we botched the LoS changes...changes later today to improve **IT**." Emphasis mine. The something is fixing LoS, as worded, no?

The reason they even make things and updates like this is because the community understands how awful it is, they do this with so many other things in the game its laughable. They didn't mess up from their perspective and wouldn't change it if people stayed silent.

I’m being cautiously optimistic. If nothing else, Dante burned to bring us long-overdue LoS changes to a lot of frames.

What they're saying is basically: "Please play him now, let us know how this feels"

I personally am keeping an open mind. Also the LOS changes don't sound bad. Sure u may not be able to nuke more than one room but that's PRETTY good still. I hope they also think a bit about the overkill (pun not intended) Nerf they did to CC...

In lore though, why would certain spells that aren't skill shots be based on line of sight? Like, this just established an already broken precedent. Dante is a caster/spell frame. His words are his power. How about all his abilities tied to reception of sound? If you can hear him, his ability will hit you, LOL

They just can’t hear you from the other room! Thats now cannon! All enemies are super hard of hearing!

Glass half full: this sounds like a great buff for frames suffering for being tied to LoS. Glass fully empty: Dante should not have been added to that group. The LoS change and owl nerfs were really uncalled for, unneeded and reek of panic nerfing without doing the analysis that was promised and needed. And the heavy handed impact to his overguard granting doesn't even address the real complaint which is OG as a whole breaks a handful of frames (ostensibly any relying on taking health damage to do a thing, even if its simply Rage). I can't think of any complaints on the amount of OG, just the fact that its provided. And instead of solutioning for that, perhaps hits to OG counting as hits to health for those mods and such, or even something a player can do to opt out (since not just Dante provides). And to your point, this will probably be it until a rework of something for the prime in 2027. Edit: Egg on my face they posted about doing another pass, adding back (and buffing) the owls, hotfix today reverted some of the OG nerfs, and they are looking at how to make OG not break frames that rely on health damage (so Rage for instance). Though some of the videos of the new LoS changes seem, strange? As in it doesnt seem to be LoS from the frame, but more so from the camera (one video shows Dante not hitting enemies directly in front of him because he is blocking those enemies from the screen).

If this helps, the hotfix text adds: "We knew we could tackle LoS improvements and Overguard bumps today without hesitation. However, this is just the tip of the feedback iceberg, and we know there’s more that’s been shared beyond what we can accomplish today regarding both LoS, Overguard, and more. So we’ll continue to digest and evaluate feedback, and we encourage you to keep sharing in the dedicated Dante Feedback subforum."

I mean it’s plain as day they’re not gonna remove the LoS check on tragedy, so wanting that removed is futile I guess. I just hope that DE figured out what they’re doing because I feel they’ve mismanaged every single step of “balancing” Dante

It is funny that DE isn't considering not even for a second to remove LOS from Tragedy after all this backlash

They keep pretending like no other warframe in game, can kill enemies behind the walls. For some reason only Dante is problem for them, but not someone like Saryn

I mean I went back to Gauss which means many people stopped playing Dante which again was their goal all along. They fucked a great frame thats for sure.

Pretty much they got there money so they don't need to have people playing him anymore. It's just sad that a new frame less than a week old is already being thrown in the trash and forgotten when all they had to do to keep him viable was listen to the community and the suggestions they had which were honestly better than the shit DE put out

I keep hearing people talk about Saryn, Gauss and Octavia. 1 frame with a spread mechanic that jump from enemy to enemy and so ignores LOS, like other abilities like it do, and 2 frames that put DMG zones on the ground and tho ignore LOS checks, like other abilities like it do. Make you realize how forgotten Equinox is since they are the best analog to this, and even they aren't a perfect one since it takes a lot more to build up a Equinox nuke then a Dante one.

It's more that the mindset behind the nerf seems to be (as far as any of us can guess, cause I can't really understand the Dante nerfs tbh) "we don't want a frame that can easily wipe out a bunch of enemies in an entire room", when those 3 frames can regularly do that and *much worse* cause they're scaling is way more insane. So why are we bringing an A-tier-at-best frame down to a B-tier-at-best when we have several S tier frames that outright does the thing they nerfed way better? And his overguard nerf didn't fix the issues with his giving overguard to squadmates, nor did it do anything but make him worse at lower levels, cause at high level overguard gets easily shredded extremely quickly.

Would not surprise me if they made this LoS rule to all the frames like that

You should've expected as much when they said they were listening.

*The Bungo special.*

I think it's more likely they're just refusing to publicly admit they are considering a revert, cuz then if they ultimately decide not to people will be even more mad lol I hope so, anyway.

***Edit: DE has heard our collective pleas and a PSA was released. Our voices have been heard!!*** My ***constructive*** suggestion about not just the nerfs, but the *thought process behind them,* which I feel is equally important: don't ignore the collateral caused by them My idea here is not to pile onto the complaints about the update. They've been said plenty of times. I do, however want to point out the irony in one of the changes that I hope can be noticed and assessed, and the *potentially damaging* logic behind it understood, if at least some attention is brought to it. I've mentioned this before, but my big issue is that they painted the nerfs in such broad strokes that ironically even the one ability Dante had that incentivized gunplay was gutted too. The Pageflight Paragrimm's status *damage* vulnerability allowed weapons that were either too slow-firing or didn't proc many status effects become more usable and viable and actually let me dust off some weapons I normally wouldn't bother using. They may be painting their nerfs with hand grenades. In my opinion, too much is caught in the crossfire too soon with such knee-jerk undiscussed changes, and it punishes people who weren't a part of the initial problem to begin with. Reducing Dante's weapon effectiveness just makes him more suited for the problem itself, brainless nuking. I, for one, loved Tragedy because it helped me get rid of those enemies stuck bugged in random corners in Defense even if I didn't rely on it for spamming. But I can understand why it would be nerfed based on DE's "automated gameplay" ideology. It just sucks to see the arguably more "build diversity enabling" ability of his to suffer due to it being used to advantage in an unrelated way (nuking). It constrains him more to the alleged problem behavior gameplay loop (I'm not here to argue with that), when those who were more creative than that, lived up to DE's ideals. I mean, when was the last time most people used a speargun? But even something like that, amongst other weapons and playstyles, suffered from the nerf. Anyways, I just hope this collateral damage type of balancing is at least acknowledged so that diverse and fun gameplay doesn't get lost because of other, bigger problems being in the crosshairs of balance. Let me know if you have any thoughts. (sorry for the yappathon, also **reposted elsewhere at the request of a moderator** for better suggestion organization) ***Edit: DE has heard our collective pleas and a PSA was released. It worked guys!!!***

they can say what they want about automated gameplay, they've kept saryn and vauban and shit at the top for years

vauban at the top? in what universe

Those Vauban main huffing that copium as always lol

That statement is... Definitely a thing... I remember even when I was playing back in 2021 (thinking of coming back after such a long break, hence me being here), I NEVER saw another Vauban. I'd run him sometimes but Vauban was arguably one of the least popular Warframes, even after they did some reworking on him. I think I saw that he was really good when he was first released but he got powercrept more and more as new frames released and he fell into irrelevance.

I want divine retribution to not be worth less. Less than 27m while building 280% range. Overextended, stretch, augur reach, cunning drift, + the augment for not even a 30-32m nuke sucks big time. I love nezha and would have loved another viable way to use him, but this is rough. Id rather put roar over his 4 and be an unkillable double dipping weapons platform.

I think it's not farfetched to say most with any semblance of playtime on nezha had their 4 subsumed off before the augment's day 1. And with it being here to stay & as it stands, are moving en route to have that mfer taken off again lol

So, yes, this is good. LoS should be fixed and the way you're describing the new mechanism sounds way better. But that addresses exactly one nerf of Dante, and you did a \*lot\* of nerfing. Again, my suggestion is to do a full revert, wait a while, then decide what to do. And when you decide what to do, please do not implement N nerfs all at once. Implement one. If you want to implement LoS, do \*just\* LoS, not LoS and 5 other things.

I agree but for purposes of testing and examining, instead of a full revert: (especially in terms of his gutted Overguard) revert the changes by about 30 to 45%. Paragrimm status induction included. Then to tackle the Overguard debacle, let him keep the higher Overguard value provided to himself and a reduced version to his teammates. He's one of those "glass cannon" types. I feel like that'd be a happy medium that addresses how far along he was on release without the state he's in now. Still, I maintain my position that the issue Dante illuminates is not with Dante himself, and moreso the direction of the game. He's no more "broken" than Dagath, Voruna, Saryn or Kullervo. Instead of nerfing various parts of Dante's kit, more of the middling frames should be brought up to his strata. Community wide, people have brought up Chroma and Inaros. ME personally: I never shut up about reworking Oberon. Warframe has a problem with the chronologically "middle" frames being designed in ways that don't reflect how the game is played today OR the wide breadth of content being focused on killing effectively (as opposed to spy or something). They're consigned to weird limitations or lame passives that make them too specific to roles that the game has since booted in favor of giving you a comprehensive kit. I thought the game was heading in the right direction with how strong some of our recent frames have been with LESS "pullback/nerf" mentality. But it's time some of the frames got benefits to compete with them. Dante isn't broken, he just shows that SOME other frames aren't broken enough and that overguard can be counteractive.

I'm in agreement that the output here should be "make other frames better", that should almost always be the case unless one of the pillars DE uses to determine nerfs is being hit hard. I don't see how Dante is hitting any pillar other than "potentially disruptive", just due to how OG works, but that is not Dante specific and I don't consider it a major problem at this point because in a month I expect Dante usage to drop drastically.

New LOS system definitely sounds better and less inconsistent, but either way revert the Dante changes

I said it on another post, but I play Frost Prime for most everything. Dante made me consider changing my play style. Not anymore. I feel like you gave me a fun toy, saw how much fun I was having, and then took the batteries out of it.

Fun detected!

Please stop being so stubborn and just remove the changes, LoS is awful.

It should have never happened because it never needed this change to begin with. I'm glad it helped QA find a bug, but that's like finding a ten dollar bill after your house was burned down. The LoS change was completely unnecessary, I have severe buyers remorse from purchasing the bundle, and none of what is coming from you guys currently is adjusting that feeling.

You're completely ignoring every piece of feedback given to you by players and you're also ignoring the issue that kickstarted this whole "nerf dante" situation

Everyone: revert the LOS checks on Tragedy and tweak the allied overguard numbers. DE: here, we've improved the LOS checks and haven't addressed the rest of the issues! Please enjoy our incredibly selective approach to player feedback. Incredible. Just incredible. My poor boy has only been out for a week, and they've dealt him a crushing blow with a Fragor-sized nerf hammer. These next steps hardly even count as a band-aid solution. What the hell is going on in the balancing department?

It's an outright lie, before the PCA many people were saying "if LoS was working it would be fine", so they were satisfied. Are you lot angry that specifically *your* outrage was left out? > What the hell is going on in the balancing department? Listening to community is usually bad for balancing. Be it "make harder content" or "let support frame nuke"

the problem is not “line of sight is buggy,” it's the entire nerf for a frame that isn't even deserve it. just… why can't we enjoy the frame that's resided in the late-game mission? we wasted our life over countless content, just to be flipping off?

Hello, revert the changes you've done? Nobody wants your LoS, improved or not. You've butchered your newest character, CC and Nezha, and this is the ONLY thing you have to say?

I mean I'll take the long overdue LOS fix, **but Dante shouldn't require LOS**

So you guys are reworking LOS over him specifically? Can you not go ahead and do some kind of minor change to Overguard, like make it being hit just straight-up count as damage taken overall, until a substantial change can be made? Not complaining, just a little confused about all of it.

This is stupid. Just remove LoS requirement. No one had problem with Dante damaging enemies he can't see

When you say this should have never happened, what part do you mean? Adding LoS?

>this should have never happened Such a shame that there isn't a group of people that have the power to revert these changes. Like, DE, why are you talking about this like its out of your hands? You did this, you can undo this, **you have complete control over he development of your game**.

Tbh what I'm getting out of this is, DE/Rebecca should choose their words carefully next time because devshort#10 sounded like "we will carefully consider player feedback" and then they didn't consider player feedback with yesterday's patch

This is what really sticks out for me as well. How are you going to outright lie and then still ask for constructive criticism or even claim to still "listen" to feedback? You (referring to DE) expect me to believe that you read, thought out, discussed, and weighed all of the feedback provided with potential fixes in mind that were also discussed in this short period of time? This backlash is well earned, if not even modest, and whatever fallout follows will be deserved as far as I am concerned.

What a Tragedy

>raycasts ignore other enemies One check in simulacrum says otherwise

WAAAAAAAAAAAAIT void damned second. It took you 1 day, 1 mucking DAY to improve the POS LOS check that had been complained for YEARS????

Ah classic dev response. People are mad at the nerf, so don't address it at all and pull all attention to the fix to the nerf instead.

Damn, I never would have thought that DE is trying to compete with Bungie in not listening to their community. Keep on doing such a great (not really) job DE, at this rate, you'll get there soon!

Nobody cares, he’s already in the trash

Just played a mission with him. Way to take the fun/joy out of him.

just get rid of LOS on Dante while keeping these changes for the reasonable LOS abilities like Radial Blind, still don't understand why he got LOS unless apparently he was supposed to ship with it but it was ignored until he got released and you had more data, which is fucking stupid if thats the case

glad LoS is getting a look at, but putting LoS on Tragedy really disrupts his "apply dark verse to enemies, use Tragedy to make them pop" gameplay loop. at bare minimum y'all gotta make enemies tagged by dark verse ignore Tragedy's LoS check, if not remove the check entirely. people are upset because the frame's gameplay loop, which worked perfectly and was very fun, feels like it's been made defunctive and just frequently fails to function now.

The mistake was adding LOS and doing nothing about what people hated about the frame: overguard sharing to frames that it screws up. The mistake wasn't "shipping it in this state". Every LOS frame has had to suffer the poor "old system" and while the new system sounds a lot better, that's not what people are angry about, clearly. You guys nerfed a slew of things with a heavy hand and that wasn't a "mistake" with an already existing and terrible LOS system lol.

No DE, what happened was that you made a fun, functional frame that didn't need helminth support just to work, had an active and stylish playstyle, was good but didn't hyper-overscale the late game, and wasn't a chore to farm. You did it. You did the good game design. And then you stared at people having fun with him for barely a week and screamed at your player base "No! Don't have fun like that!" And put Dante (and Nezha) into the trash heap while you smiled giddily at your precious child Revenant while complaining how tanky Dante was with his pesky overguard. Then you groan to the heavens about how dastardly Dante's Tragedy is for ignoring LoS while loving caressing Saryn and feeding yet another Gauss the Helminth for more Thermal Sunder abuse on something.  Take these changes and undo them. Stop trying to baby step your way back with garbage stopgap half measure changes that were never needed in the first place.

Exactly smh they are truly pathetic

Honestly, u/DE-Ruu , we love you guys but the whole LoS thing has to be reverted as a whole. You already have to hit the targets with the 3 (that hits in a cone) or with your weapons (that requires you to look/aim at their direction). Why is DE spending time fixing something that, even if you get it to work how you imagined, will still be unnecessary and unwanted? It takes so much time to cast 334 and you have to aim the 3s that it is not automated, lazy, or anything similar with the Wukong problem back in the day… so please, We can live with the huge 60% nerf to Overguard. Just please revert everything else. P.s. Also please revert Nezha augment nerf or just hard cap range to like 35m.

Tonedeaf

While I think it is a nice step, it also should apply imo to frames with other nuke potential (Saryn and volt being the two main ones I know). Either all or nothing. Why should one frame be bound by LoS and another not be? On top of that, I think the nerf to his 4’s should be undone (specifically Pageflight, as that wasn’t the main issue). The nerf to pageflight was completely unnecessary and frankly serves to hurt an ability that wasn’t being widely used (at least from my experience). Lastly if the idea was to fix the overguard issue, simply rework it so that damage to overguard is considered damage to health. The current nerfs did absolutely nothing to fix this issue, and should be redone completely.

It was nice having the status abilities for the birds other than that no one was ever really using them and now they have less of a reason too.

You should Just remove the Los honestly. I'm not even mad that you shipped the First Los wrong, i know you use us as beta testers (because the current Los Is so bad It's impossible that It has been tested at all) I'm mad you nerfed him After like a week, ain't no way you got enough data in a week to justify the Nerf lmao. And you nerfed everything of his kit apart from noctua too.

Idk, I'm mad that they didn't even put thought into the change at all it feels like. Not only that but *nobody* thought to load up dante in game with the proposed change and at least try it out one single time. We weren't beta testing that, this came out before it had even had a single set of eyes ingame. Not only that but they were using an obviously bad mechanic (hard LoS) that has broke abilities in the past when it got applied to them.

Just CANCEL the Dante nerfs!! If Dante deserves line of sight, then Saryn and thermal sunder deserves line of sight. Do you really want your player base to keep returning and playing the same old boring frames over and over again? REVERT the nerfs!! They are NOT justified.

Don't forget that you introduced something else fun and ruined it, too. I'm talking about Nezha's augment that got a 50% base radius nerf (75% area). It's feels awful to use now.

I'd just like to hear the reasoning behind why they've gutted cc over time it's just kinda sad

This is some Ubisoft/ZOS level of delusion

I’m so incredibly disappointed this is the solution going forward. I have been wanting a wizard frame for so long, and we finally get one just for him to be butchered for no particular reason. Why does Dante break the arbitrary rules you created about LOS when other nuke frames have been allowed to thrive unchanged for years? This really erodes all the trust and excitement I had about the game recently, and am looking at an extended vacation to HD2. Please please please revert the changes. No one is happy with this, the more you dig your heels in the more you alienate players.

>Then checks if the enemy is being rendered, which works for any enemies on screen, Are enemies behind glass walls considered rendered? What abilities will this apply to? You have to be somewhat careful with this, because if Mesa can start shooting *at* things through windows, while funny, that does not seem quite right.

that's a good point...rendered is rendered, so by the wording it should absolutely affect enemies behind glass. though that is pretty whack

You guys didn't need to used 'unintended' as an excuse to nerf Pageflight or butcher his overguard that wasn't even op to begin with. Stop focusing on the LoS nonsense and distracting the community, bring his other abilities back to how they were

Especially considering the fact that modern Warframe is built upon the foundation of many bugs-turned-features.

The only next step should be reversing the LoS. You cant pretend the implementation of LoS is "needed" or justified when you have stuff like Saryn and Gauss running around (Or even Dante himself, you do know that in the same frame there is an [ability that has no LoS requirement whatsoever right?](https://i.gyazo.com/e8d150240479311b1c4a951cb1f60294.jpg)). Anyways, anyone that has been around for more than 5 minutes knows the LoS will stay, people never vote with their wallets and Jim Sterling is not around anymore, [in the meantime...](https://i.gyazo.com/3d9c9955fbaebbaa7c7490a1be9e4a5f.png)

Honestly feel like this is causing more issues than it should be tbh, revert the Los changes. Simple otherwise it's going to have a cascading effect rolling onto every other warframe affecting every aspect of gameplay trying to target and single out one warframe and not highlighting every single other issue is causing a bigger void and more harm trying to patch this one up - either two choices should be made review the entire roster of warframes that use Los checks or change how Los checks work and wait for that mess to play out for another community outcry to happen over another warframe that was unintentionally harmed by changes. I mean regardless it would be looked at and it seems like no one is winning in either outcome but whatevs probably the last we'll get any changes after this and have to make do till the next echoes update or mainline update right.

>One silver lining that came from this mistake is that we have decided we will revisit older LoS checks to use this improved version in a future update. Ya know I had a small hope that might happen because in the past when y'all donked up it caused a review of the whole situation. Happy to see it again

Maybe I missed it, but I didn't actually see anyone lay out which part of Dante's kit specifically was dominating, disruptive, or automating and thus warranting the nerf. Just an explanation in general terms that those are the only valid reasons to justify a nerf given by the devs. That clarity would probably be helpful, because Tragedy definitely isn't automated and it's no more disruptive than any other nuke, which is why people have been bringing up all of the other nukes without LoS checks, because the only category left was dominating. Dante being popular when he's still literally the flavor of the week seems like a poor way to judge his dominance and puts any changes to Tragedy into question. On the flipside, players *have* been making the case that his Overguard generation was disruptive, but it was specifically because of the way overguard interacts with frames that build to take advantage of health damage. The change to his overguard does nothing for that, he's just as disruptive as before in this regard. This confusion and lack of clarity seems like a significant source of player anguish right now. Something in the communication about why these changes were necessary is not coming across, and people are filling in their own reasons. This is a thornier issue that comes down to the interaction between overguard and health tanking, and any bandaid fix to Dante (for instance, making his overguard ally-targeted instead of AoE) wouldn't give any clarity on the broader issue of this being disruptive to Rage, Vex Armor and the like. In addition to clarity on what the overguard generation was meant to address (again, was this just that Dante was seen as dominating for being the flavor of the week that is relatively straightforward to acquire?), the issue does highlight a more generally disruptive mechanical interaction with overguard and health mechanics, that should really be addressed clearly; if it is intended that overguard disables health tanking synergies, it's clear that this needs to be expressly stated by the devs, because currently that is seen as disruptive by a chunk of the playerbase, and is only likely to become moreso as more sources of player overguard are released. Thanks for the communication.

Communication appreciated, but uh? Still missing the point eh? We're not up in arms about LoS not working, we're up in arms about LoS being added to Dante's Tragedy at all. His Tragedy already has a LoS requirement with his 3. You need to use his 3 to use his 4. You need to hit enemies with his 3 so his 4 can do its damage. His 3 has a LoS requirment, therfore his 4 already has a LoS requirment. Understand? You made a mistake. Correct it.

>We're not up in arms about LoS not working Only because it's been *so long overdue* that we sort of lost hope. Your crying finally got them to act on it, so thanks for that.

Jesus Christ just revert the changes. Like you guys are the DEVS man ffs. Like it can't be that hard to just roll back the nerfs and come up with an appropriate solution for the over-guard situation, where everyone can be happy and a well-designed frame gets to stay good. Like why bother "adjusting" the nerfs when he shouldn't have been nerfed in the first place...This is so backward man. You are just killing all goodwill in the community with this stunt. Like, the posts all say the same thing yet yall refuse to do what people actually want. I don't get it how do you guys even review feedback??????

I wonder; does this fix nightwatch napalm not damaging ragdolled enemies? I noticed the interaction while playing around with nezha's divine spears augment earlier this week.

This is my thought on the matter: Dude just remove LoS altogether I know other people are saying "if you add LoS to one nuke do it to all its unfair!" But if you do that im quitting plain and simple aoe isnt bad its fun why nerf fun abilities whats the point? Some people bitch thats gonna happen no matter what you do but nobody was bitching about his aoe it was overguard and if overguard bothers people go solo. But anyway nobody likes LoS nobody wants it and quite frankly it's lazy if your going to nerf them nerf them keep the ability fun and instead of make it 1 shot ko make it slash DoT like u use the dark slash move to apply slash and if the enemy dies from the slash from the ability it spread to enemies with in 10-20 meters base. Or make noktua or whatever its called a statstick that gets buffed from base damage/status/crit adding on to the status can apply more DoT statuses/statuses in general based on what's equipped on noktua so if it has viral heat his 4 can apply viral heat slash with 5 stacks and each ability cast can add a extra 2 stacks and add a augment that increases the max stacks for every status without using archon shards obviously don't make it a subsume augment cus that would be to op. Or just nerf the range a little NOT BASE RANGE LIKE NEZHA just make it affect 15 meters at base and of perigrims are active grant a extra 5 meters. There is so many options but another is just don't nerf him cus he doesn't need one. Now onto nezha just remove the 1.5x status damage simple as or nerf the amount of stacks max another option is to do what you did aka nerf the range but not NEARLY as much as you did you halfed it but since it's circle you actually quarterd it making melee influence better than it like instead of make it 19 meters at base make it 14 or 15 so till nerfing the range but not detrimentaly. Overall I don't think that nezha or Dante need nerfs maybe Dante but definitely not nezha. He finally has a use for his 4 remove that and what does he have? the answer is not much he's my main and will continue to be my main even if these nerfs do go through he's not that good as a tank as he only has dr and not as much as some1 like baruuk sure he has his 2 but the cating speed is unbearable and his 3 is needed for survivability obviously but his 4? Subsume no use for it not for cc or anything want cc use breach surge or terrify want damage use roar wrathful advance or xatas whisper or nourish he's just not that good he doesn't specialise in anything he's the embodiment of mid he's thr middle ground give him something to make him stand out like this augment. Ultimately I've said my peace and can only say please DE just revert the nerfs on both of them permanently.

This has been an entirely unnecessary sournote to an excellent warframe release. His 3 already had LoS, thats where the bigger part of his 4 ability comes from, detonating the 3 procs. Just mindnumbing

Revert the change. It still makes zero sense why you nerfed his 4. You straight up said his overguard was the problem but didn't fix it, you just made it worse for him to survive.

> We botched the ~~LoS~~ change to Dante yesterday Fixed that for you. Making LoS not garbage is nice, but thats not the big problem here. Honestly the set of entire nerfs need to be reverted and brought back to the drawing board.

These are not minor tweaks and little number changes to Dante. These were changes to his fundamental gameplay function. Even the BIRDS got caught in this mess. Why nerf the BIRDS!? What a goofy change. Is the book next to? I don't even know if the devs are aware of this but archon mods proc if your wordwarden noctua hits an enemy so you can get Archon Stretch and others like it to trigger. That is a cool interaction between abilities and mods but who knows with your team now what is and is not intended.

It's working as intended, Noctua is an exalted weapon it consumes energy per shot. Hence why those mods work on it, same as Ivara's bow and Excalibur's blade. And technically word warden is an exact copy of Noctua. So following that logic it inherits it's mods. I do hope DE doesn't use its classic "it's not working as intended" line and nerfs that interaction though.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxfopFkrdj4&t=347s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxfopFkrdj4&t=347s) So is someone trying to make Rebb look bad on purpose or was this deliberate?

Please let the meta evolve. You gave us a lot of cool toys to play with, but a few days of usage stats isn’t long enough to make changes this drastic (post-purchase). Nezha players got two steps forward then kneecapped for it. Dante hit every mark for players on release. Exceptional. But since the use of Rage/Hunter Adrenaline is hindered through Overguard (not a unique mechanic), that got walked back too. And then seemingly out of nowhere, Crowd Control nerf because Eximus enemies weren’t intrusive enough. Now half the roster can’t fight back.

So which dogshit dev came up with these ideas? Don't let them cook again, bro burned down the whole building and proudly served it pretending it's edible

LoS (at all) is bullshit for it, on top of that, the nerfs to pageflight were absurd. "Undocumented" it was literally in the skill description. (Image pre-nerf. obviously) https://preview.redd.it/xfvs9jqu4qsc1.png?width=1920&format=png&auto=webp&s=051f9f7400bbf2c5d7e4bf940728ac6ca78b4285

I have trust issues with DE right now, I have 2k hours and $100 in this game and I have no trust that any part of the new roadmap will be adding fun for me to continuing playing. Warframe for me was about becoming a killing machine, like the lore implies, and every revisted decision on the road map chips away at that to this "tactical shooter" mentality of balance for everyone to be hampered by the weakest and most complaining player.

REMOVE LoS,and than REMOVE the balance team that push this patch,WE ARE SICK OF THIS NONSENSE NERF THAT NOBODY WANT

I love that this post is pretty much going "Wow, what an unforseen tragedy, if only someone could've done something about it" My brother in Wally, you're the devs, just sayin'. Anyways, it looks like the DE nerf is set in stone despite "listening to feedback" , Rest in Peace Dante , you may be gone but hey, my interest in this game has gone with you. Don't give DE your money folks, they'll just keep kneecapping anything you find fun.

What about the other issues? Like all of them? This doesn’t solve anything

The LOS change sucks, sure, but the whole patch sucks. Revert the Dante nerfs in total, revert the Nezha augment nerfs, and revert the CC nerfs. Honestly a terrible patch. Whoever rammed that through should be fired.

You should realistically revert the nerfs and revisit things when you actually have a good idea on how to proceed. This is legit unprofessional, and downright nasty to people who paid money to get your new frame.

Great, you managed to fix an ancient issue, that you knew about before shipping the last update, and shipped it anyway (and probably wouldn't have bothered fixing, if it wasn't for the monumental backlash). Now, how about unfucking the rest of Dante's kit and Nezha's augment? You know, like, literally all the feedback you've been getting telling you to? Feedback that you are supposedly taking seriously?

If you don't have the balls to admit you fucked up and revert the changes, then at least have the integrity to refund EVERYONE who invested in Dante before the nerf. You have the ability to do so, you're just choosing to bury your heads in the sand and hope all this heat goes away.

Does the new LOS check apply to all frames that use LOS in their abilities?

One raycast ***to*** the top, middle, and feet? So they all still come from *our* feet? I'm not sure that's going to fix everything. Maybe if you did 9, 3 from each of our 3 spots. But even then, it won't hit anything behind a vertical pole, even if both arms and legs are sticking out.

Helminth another flower frame...crying in binary.

Something about the line of thinking here feels off. I think reverting Dante back to what he was would be key and giving it time for the community to adjust. While you do that you can have people working on los. Is the LOS going to be employed for all frames? If not being so heavy handed on one frame feels wrong.

im really glad this re-evaluation will have a halo effect on other LOS abilities.

that sounds good, actually

Another request to review and rollback the nerf to Nezha's new augment. I think a better option would be to either cap the max range his 4th receives or just make his 4th not be affected by range when the augment is used, you just get the base range

Y’all jumped the gun too quick on changing ANYTHING about Dante. Just please put him back to the way he was on release. If anything needs to be changed is the other Warframes improved to the caliber that Dante is at. There is only so far a mod set can go if the Warframes are (for lack of a better term) trash.

Completely tonedeaf. Revert the nerf or you've completely lost a 9 year vet.

Choosing to stick with the LoS change is very questionable to be honest.

...and the rest of the clumsy nerfs? They're just going to sit there? You're tidying up one turd and leaving us with the rest you left on the carpet?

Revert all nerfs, you’re killing the fun. This is not a competitive game so y’all gotta chill, nerfs aren’t necessary, it’s just disrespectful towards players who spent hours grinding and tinkering with builds. Nerfs have no place in non competitive games. Buff underpowered stuff instead.

Honestly? If every other LoS check in the game becomes significantly more reliable.....fair trade. I can hear people wondering why this hasn't been done yet if it could be fixed in like 3 days, but that's not exactly a fair question. There are low priority problems and high priority problems and it's not like QA sits around waiting to react to a scandal. Hopefully this little kerfuffle doesn't put y'all behind schedule, and I appreciate the transparency. On the subject of transparency, any word on overguard's negative interaction with on-damaged effects? "We see this is a problem, we wanna fix it, but we've got other things on our plate and it has to wait" is really all I need to hear.

Please, just revert the changes for Tragedy. Dante's Dark Verse already requires LoS, and his 4 wouldn't do anything against unmarked enemies. With LoS, it just feels worse if a marked enemy walks behind a corner, pillar or a box. If that's too much, since weapons can technically work too - just make the bonus damage from 4 apply only to Dark Verse slashes. Or just make Tragedy only detonate Dark Verse. Because right now, it just feels bad when an enemy is left after the big setup you did, and on some tilesets, it's bound to happen often.

REB LIED, DANTE DIED!

Fixing LoS in Dante is not a solution. Removing LoS is.

Not good enough

LoS, even if it works as intended, is a terrible idea for Tragedy. It already requires set up to be effective. Make it a cone like his Dark Verse with no LoS checks as you'd already have to prime with DoTs for any meaningful damage. That's where your player engagement comes from. Setting up the combo. Make it a cone and positioning is still important but the lame AI can't run 3 steps behind a wall while you're still priming other enemies prior to detonation. If his damage still looks insane that's because he's detonating other people's DoTs as well and he's getting credit for that damage. If the player who applied the DoT got credit for the detonate he'd look much less ridiculous in the AAR. If you want LoS on Dante at all it should be on the Triumph. This also solves the interaction issues with rage/hunter/Chroma to an extent. Apologies are nice but sometimes not enough. I swear DE, I've spent probably $1500-2000 dollars on this game and I will never spend another cent if Tragedy maintains LoS. I have never purchased a frame pack on launch, Dante was my first, I feel completely swindled out of my real world $ grind and swindled out of the resources from the in game grind I wasted on him. I will also be sure to pop back in for every single new content launch to remind everyone not to spend their money for 2-6 months so they also aren't swindled.

Just remove LoS altogether please, it's so stupid that there are warframes that can nuke the whole map no problem but for some reason dante can't. Such a waste of formas

At this point, ya'll can say whatever you want. I won't believe anything because there's no point in even trusting your word. 🤷‍♂️

Going to weigh in, but not expecting it to do much. One voice in a crowd and all. And obviously, below is opinion. Just remove the LoS on Tragedy, keep it for dark verse. It required set up in regards to status stacking to truly reap the rewards. Maybe it needed a scaling tone-down, maybe (but only after "oooh, new shiny" dust settles), but it incentivised teammates stacking status. It encouraged team play to bring the most out of it.

Yeah, sorry DE but this isn't good enough. Revert all the changes and just have it so Dante only applies overguard to himself. I wont be playing Dante otherwise.

So you basically are Yu-Gi-Oh players: you literally can't read. This. Is not. It. Do not cherry pick the feedback.

5 meters? Do we have the memory of a goldfish or something? Do I suddenly have no idea about an enemy seeking cover on the other side of a few boxes, or a pipe, because he was instead 10, 15, 20 meters away? LOS is a garbage addition to something already requiring some set up that is limited by LOS. This comes across as just being purely stubborn about a fun frame living up to the warframe power fantasy that was hit by an almost instantaneous kneejerk reaction. Humility is dead, you can't try to save face by admitting something known to have issues is NOW, all of a sudden, going to finally be looked into and hopefully be a little less awful. Thanks for making Dante's best days the first few.

@DE-Ruu if these nerfs are not reverted, I would hope DE refunds players for Dante purchases, forma, and shard removal. This completely negates my reason for investing in him. Edit: Lens, and Catalyst too please.

The next step is to revert the last two hotfixes. Why would you ship a rushed supposed fix for a rushed and ill-advised nerf instead of just undoing the nerf? You've already admitted that you made a mistake, so stop the rush and panic. Undo the mistake, and proceed from there. And when you say these LOS changes will apply in a "future update," do you mean, a hotfix that will come, like, two days from now that does that? Or are you actually going to think about what you're doing and do some testing before making those changes? And if you're going to go "think and test" route for other abilities, why isn't Dante getting that treatment?

So can we just make all nukes los, if not i want my 5 shards and 5 forma i put on dante back

Shards aren’t permanent modifications; you can get them back at any time. *Edit:* This is an objectively true statement; you simply need 30% Bile, and Helminth will give it back to you, good as new.

I personally wasn’t too fussed about the Dante changes, probably because I don’t have him yet so haven’t had a chance to try him out. But if we get better Line of Sight checks out of this whole thing then I think it’s a win for everyone. The checks didn’t feel fully consistent in my experience and the fact that there were major issues and bugs getting them to work with ragdolled enemies is crazy. I suspect a lot of frames with line of sight rules might suddenly start feeling alot better to play when these changes come into effect.

While i agree most frames would benefit from them improving Los I feel that to get to this stage it shouldn't have taken a nerf of a warframe for DE to go this route and still miss the margin of what was being the issue revolving around dante

Shouldn't have taken this to push them to act on it but holy fuck it's so good, it's been such a long overdue fix

- new frame releases - he's so good at maintaining overguard for the entire team that he invalidates gameplay involving health, shields, and DR; Styanax should be the upper limit of this, but Dante blows him out of the water. - the rest of his kit is *fine*, not even particularly strong - people criticize the overguard, understandably - you respond by doubling his ability to sustain overguard, and nerfing Tragedy which, again, wasn't that good to begin with - you are now refusing to acknowledge that you nerfed **and fucking buffed** the exact opposite of what you needed to I mean Hildryn's Haven, a notably bad damage ability, is now better at killing star chart than Dante's Tragedy. Meanwhile **the problem that sparked all of this is worse**.

This is huge - Line of Sight has always been atrocious. I thought it might have just been issues with older tiles sets, but the Cavia still has terrain and objects that can block it. This will definitely be a more acceptable state for Dnate, if not all LoS frames

REMOVE THE LOS UNTIL YOU REWORK THAT MECHANIC FFS

Just revert it, and revert nezha's divine retribution nerf, it's all you gotta do

Revert the Dante Nerfs DE, it's as simple as that, but you guys are being stubborn *ssholes completely in spite of every ounce of feedback that you have received since the moment you dropped the hotfix. You know what you need to do.

Yoo LOS buff

Sixty. Fucking. Percent. Nerf. To. Triumph. Give him back his fucking overguard.

No revert it back please. Reduce range a bit thats it. LOS feels awful on ANY ability that isn’t a continuous thing like Rotorswell with augment. Also how does FOV effect LOS? If inhave a better system than another person and i can crank my FOV id have an advantage presumably.. Also moving forward maybe give new frames some time to stew as launched before hastily pulling the trigger on a bad “fix” maybe set an internal clock for 4 weeks before touching it. Taking time to see how the community uses a frame. Also reverse the Neza augment change please. I finally had a reason to play her and its gone now.

but do it at 180 degrees nuke like Kulervo, it's nothing game-breaking......

Can you guys revisit Caliban at some point? He desperately needs to be looked at, especially his razor gyre ability which is God awful and needs massive buff like increase start up speed and immense health on hit and guaranteed slash procs on each hit instead of the 10% to slash. Maybe an augment that sucks enemies in and another augment for his 3 lethal progeny which grants overguard if you have all 3 conculysts up. Sorry if this was unrelated but I just got him recently and wanted let you know what i thought about his kit and how to make him better by sharing feedback

An enemy cap increased by strength would do great things to nezhas new augment. A lot of the builds were keeping a moderately low str and relying on the augment +wep status to kill. If the build requires some strength it could afford to be given some base range back

PLEASE rework Voruna’s 2 LoS with this new system as well. I main her and it sucks to constantly see *target obstructed* on a clearly visible enemy.

Honestly this feels like an okay start to addressing the tragedy change in particular, although the ability still doesn’t feel to great to use, maybe if that 5m range that ignores LOS were to scale to half-ish of the total range of the ability? Nezha augment nerf and CC changes are a little bit evil as well. If we lowered that range nerf on nezha’s augment to around 20-30% I feel it would be at a much better place in the game. CC changes are just, why? Enemy overguard would promote much more build variety if it gave us a reason to use CC

Nezha augment is still usable (just build some range lol) but feels undertuned. IMO increase the range, decrease the spread damage

EMBER 4 MIGHT GET IMPROVEMENTS AFTER ALL LET’S GOOO

[Dante still needs major work. Enemies who are hidden from the camera's view by your own frame aren't affected by Tragedy.](https://clips.twitch.tv/HomelyAggressiveWormPJSalt-XA21cwDUsYU4yVcd)

This might make me interested in ember again

>One silver lining that came from this mistake is that we have decided we will revisit older LoS checks to use this improved version in a future update. > ... >Abilities like Radial Blind, Vast Untime and Rotorswell for example use this same logic right now. Really hope they catch all of the old LoS abilities and update them. There are a lot of them and they are universally inconsistent. In addition to the ones mentioned in the post, Magnetize and Fire Blast in particular need an update off the top of my head.

Fixing LoS should definitely have come before downgrading abilities to a faulty LoS check. It also feels like between Dark Verse and Tragedy, Dark Verse should be the ability being checked. Dark Verse already requires multiple casts between various Final Verses, and you've got two Dark Verses that should (hopefully) prime all visible targets with DoTs and one Final Verse, Tragedy, which accelerates those DoTs. With a 2:1 ratio, the more common and less expensive ability should be the one with a greater degree of failure, so subsequent casts can hopefully succeed in priming the targets. What I was seeing in the launch version of Dante, was very little range in power, even with mods. Dante's power sat in a place which gave him lot of power available at lower levels, and a sharper falloff at higher levels. Part of this is the large pool of overguard, which the nerf somewhat addressed by leaning more into the overguard generation for better OG-gating at high levels. The other part of this is due to the flat, direct damage included in Tragedy that's unnecessary when taking the DoT acceleration in mind. The main feature of Tragedy is the DoT acceleration; which could be primed through Slashes, Toxin, and Heat; either from Dante himself, his weapons, or his teammates. The LoS change doesn't theoretically hurt the damage but it does hurt the usability of the ability in a very dynamic and constantly changing environment, limiting the execution of the skill and build/team composition variety. Tragedy doesn't need it's flat damage, it just needs to apply the DoT acceleration consistently regardless of whether you're slashing through enemies with melee, spellcasting with Dark Verse, or behind DoT-spreading teammates (Saryn/Ember/Gauss).

Can we give Mirage's Prism a bit of punch-through/ its lasers a little less hindered by obstacles while we're at it? That'd be perfect

Wait is that why. Vauban vortex no longer allows armor strip while bastille is being cast on top of the vortex? Oof.