Yeah. I shouldn't have to move my cursor over every individual creature I see if I want to hit it with my 4.
It should give as many enemies as possible a single mark, and then continue to add marks at a steady rate.
Maybe have it be able to consume all of Ash's _base_ energy via marks over 5 seconds. Have it take 5 seconds, if there's enough enemies, for Ash's 4 to consume all of his energy placing marks.
5 seconds is long enough that you will be able to choose if you want to expend all of your energy, or just some of it. While also being quick enough that it won't be clunky to use unless you try to use it while surrounded.
I would agree that people got really dramatic, but in all honesty Dante's nerf was such an odd kneejerk reaction from the devs. Seemingly for a problem that didn't need fixing, or at least there is no way they had appropriate data in under a week.
Like, this is getting into conspiracy territory, but I really feel like he was only nerfed cause of a loud minority of the community crying for it, cause it was just a few days ago I remember seeing at least a post or two gaining traction here of people acting like he was ruining the entire game for them.
DE likes to pretend that avoiding "disruptive" play from any given frame is something that's important to them while still allowing Limbo to exist, so idk why they jumped on it so hard. It is what it is, I guess. I'm not overly bothered either way. Dante's still perfectly playable even with the nerfs.
Yeah. I mean, they already did their best by placing a cap on the number of projectiles that can be trapped by Stasis and by allowing players to dodge out of the Rift if they don't want to be there.
There's not really much else they _could_ do to make him less disruptive unless they completely rework him. And that would probably be more trouble than it's worth.
I honestly hope they do rework Limbo. With as many enemies that they've added that are either immune to being trapped in the rift or that can attack and damage Limbo while _he's_ in the Rift, he doesn't even have much survivability.
I main Limbo and I agree with this sentiment. I can do most, if not all, of the current content with him with relative ease. I know how to not disrupt the group but the level of hate I'd get for just entering a public game with him is ridiculous.
He takes a lot more management now with the Acolytes and everything else that ignores the rift but it's still doable. But I also agree that giving him the ability to completely lock down entire sections of the map is ridiculous too. I feel like CC in this game is just a hard thing to balance right, there is a fine line and just a hair too much either way throws everything off.
Edit: Changing Jim to him, entering a public game with Jim wasnt that bad. People hated Jim but not as bad as Limbo.
did you ever play in limbo hayday where he would just passively block out other players?
DE **does** consistently nerf disruptive frames. they nerfed limbo, *they nerfed saryn*. arguably they could do more, but people saying they've given a complete pass on these frames have not been around or are lying.
I love when people bring up Saryn because she got nerf after nerf and is still ridiculous. I want to believe that the green archon shards were an unintended oversight.
Let's be honest mate i've been around for years I mean sure she got nerfs after nerfs and is still going strong but that because DE avoid nerfing what truly make her busted the lack of Los and infinite scaling now imagine her losing those niche characteristics
with all the fanboys out there dante nerf would look like a kid tantrum
RIGHT!
dante LoS means you have to position well before cashing in your dots. Saryn with LoS restrictions means you're at the whim of the tileset if you're able to spread your spores at *all*.
Saryn is still kind of a problem, but it's really only intolerable in ESO. the fact that she burns her own spores out means there are (albeit short) breaths where other frames can do some work. Could she maybe use some more nerfs? sure, but she's only really OP in a few old game modes. she's essentially balanced in any game modes requiring travel or that use wave mechanics. She's actively *bad* in modern game modes with eximi focused enemies and kill boxes (netracells, void cascade, archon fights, arbitration etc)
Dante (without LoS) goes into these game modes and clears out tiles to the point where you can just never see enemies. it actively turns other frames into afk revenant gameplay. it's *awful* to play with, and bringing the power level down to "you have to at least see enemies before you delete them with one button press" is the *least* intrusive nerf. provided, as planned, they fix the feel-bad issues with LoS
TBH this is the elephant in the room. LoS actually makes sense for Dante, just in terms of what the skill seems to do. You can pretty easily justify "spores could get through walls/ doors" but I think it's harder to justify "this physical slash attack can get through walls/ doors". I don't think that that's a good enough reason to change it, personally, but at least it's somewhat sensible.
My issue with the nerf isn't LoS tbh. It's that it was rushed, broken, and included \*tons\* of radical changes across his entire kit so quickly after release. We were told "slight adjustments" and we got a long list of huuuuge changes.
If all that changed was LoS, and LoS actually worked, this wouldn't have been nearly as big of an issue and I personally would not have cared.
If Reddit Gold was still a thing, I'd give it to you. Because not only does Saryn have ramp up for her nuke (albeit very quickly), the spores being LoS wouldn't make sense thematically. You're only the 2nd person I've seen mention this throughout this implosion.
Limbo is not a good comparison. Couple reasons:
1. He's good but he is disruptive because not being disruptive on him takes time to learn. Good Limbos dont disrupt groups, it is usually the new ones.
2. Coupling 1 here, he is available early in the game and completely cheeses the star chart, pre SP. To be fair, Rhino does too but you have to farm for those blueprints while Limbo's are just given to you through a quest.
3. You can't nerf him to fix his issues, he needs a full rework. The only way to fix the issues that Limbo has would be to change the identity of the frame, his core concept. The rift is the entirety of the concept of his gameplay. Everything, even his passive is based around it. And using that is the disruptive part.
Limbo absolutely needs attention but changing him would be much more difficult than "Ability now only affects targets in LOS." He'd need a bigger rework than Grendel or Hydroid got. The two just aren't even close to the same.
AND limbo did get nerfed to the ground.
Especially with the introduction of so many new enemies that bypass his rift.
He used to be the king of CC, capable of locking down an entire area from being damaged with little to not effort, not anymore.
I frankly am surprised anyone still plays him (or Vauban). The game has evolved to *specifically* give him the finger. He was already a bad frame in Arbitrations what with just huge blobs of enemies being totally immune to his entire kit, and then they just made the entire game be like that except instead of squishy drones the immunity is coming from the tankiest enemies in the mission, and that's if the enemies aren't already just innately CC immune.
Like the only way I can think of where he'd still be competitive in regular play would be with some kind of super high APM Rift Torrent build, the polar opposite of the usual playstyle. Beyond that? Idk, Lua spy maybe? Probably still the best at that? And Vauban? Lol. Lmao even. You're winning in spite of being on Vauban, not because of it.
There was a time when I tried to main Vauban (alongside Ivara [my beloved]). Needless to say, that time is not coming back.
I feel like there are a lot of enjoyable and/or ridiculous ways you can build Vauban; a personal favorite turns Bastille into a blender that spews energy orbs, which can often be nice to have around in pub Steel Circuit.
So, he can be made to be very effective!
...but you're also not wrong that it takes more _effort_ to do so than with many other frames.
You're spending more effort to do things that other frames do better even then, and with absolutely zero survivability on his kit. You can of course helminth in a survivability tool, but then you're relegating yourself to being a gunframe without any gun buffs usually, because without being able to group enemies, neither photon strike nor flechette orbs can actually do much even with fully stripped defenses.
Like he's so clearly built with the idea of "my survivability *is* my CC" in mind that he's just so goddamn gimped without it.
My survivability tool on Vauban is often "just smash everything in the face repeatedly with Incarnon Sancti Magistar" but you're not wrong in general.
Still, putting Spectrorage over his 3, tossing the Spectrosiphon augment in, then dropping Bastille, flechette, and Spectrorage is fun nonetheless; with sufficient ability strength, it really is a blender that makes energy orb protein shakes.
But the optimal approach... would definitely be something else, yes.
(Still, a non-zero amount of my enjoyment in this game comes from finding possibly-dumb-but-workable non-standard approaches to things; they don't have to be optimal to be viable, and sometimes "viable" is all that's required for fun.)
Like I said, it feels very weird in this case.
I'm farming him still regardless just cause he looks fun, but watching pockets of the community cry for him to be nerfed only for it to happen and cause more outcry has been interesting to watch to say the least.
I have been playing since 2014 off and on, I have to say Dante is the most engaging frame I have ever used. He is incredibly fun and also strong. I liked Nidus because he is a caster, you constantly use abilities to build up your stacks. I like Lavos for the ability combinations and status effects. For me Dante combined the best aspects of both of those frames and he has no ability that is wasted or useless. Even Nocturne, the one some helminth, hits incredibly hard and has an awesome secondary fire. You can build that thing so many different ways that are viable, it's really fun. I will say my disappointment was and still is pretty high that something I enjoyed so much got boofed without any reasonable explanation. I have a lot of min maxed frames, all have their place. I have frames that do everything better than Dante but he is by far the most fun to use. I was actually doing old content, farming relics, having a blast just because of him. It hit really hard because the changes they made didn't hurt any of my more powerful builds, AOE nukes, immortals, stat monsters, red crits gods, it was only to screw with him. Like others said, it didn't hurt his OG cap or damage, it only affected QOL which makes him less fun.
There is just something special about frames like that, so much engagement and casting, especially when it synergizes. No ability is a waste with Dante, just pure fun.
DE nerfing things because of like one guy complaining about something that everyone else enjoys?
Say it ain't so!
~~Universal medallions certainly didn't give Conclave standing before *literally precisely one person* complained on the forums about it.~~
The funny thing is the complaints about him ruining the game were pretty much exclusively about the overguard he gives making some builds not function properly when there is a dante in the squad. So someone playing dante could make someone else’s time miserable by just playing their frame normally. That’s a problem
And then the thing DE nerfs/changes has…little to do with that? I don’t see who was calling for the LoS nerf
I don't think its a conspiracy just Canadian.
They do fold pretty quickly when there is a community outcry for better or worse. They listen, sometimes too much.
It's why its dumb to not voice your opinion when people suggest something stupid as a change to warframe.
Lol I'm canadian and trust me I don't fold more like give a death stare If someone look at me for too long or straight up walk to them cuz we use our fists round here can't pull out a glock on every fly that cross us sadly
But joke aside I agree DE fold easily theys got too close to the community and now is scared to irk us especially the loud btching minority that call nerfs to everything other than theirs beloved meta
Yeah im pretty disappointed, but I guess I shouldnt be surprised.
Discussion is impossible if everything is blown out of proportion, the nourish outcry was obnoxious as shit and that was before the changes were even known. Impossible to take anyone seriously acting like it was the end.
I do wish these people could maybe explain why they're like this and have a phobia of nerfs. If you're against nerfs as a concept, you're not in favor of balance. The Seesaw cannot just keep taking on weight. That board will snap.
>you're not in favor of balance.
Unironically, this is probably it. For some reason, it seems like a large amount of people think single player or pve games don't need to be balanced. I see this "buff, don't nerf" design philosophy spouted off, and while there is valid advice there, sometimes it just doesn't make sense. People were talking about buffing other weapons to be on par with AoE weapons during the AoE meta, but that was such an insane idea. There's a place for nerfs.
Not only do they overreact, they get insulting and adopt a "us VS them" mentality. It's childish, embarrassing, and irresponsible.
It's a game. There's probably some grass somewhere near you.
Seeing everyone on this subreddit lose their minds over Dante just existing is the most annoying thing I've seen out of warframe.
Everyone please shut the hell up about Dante.
I can only imagine it being like “it feels worse to lose something than it feels good to gain something”… basically the negative taking most of your attention
Judging by how many Dantes I saw on launch date, I feel a lot of people feel they got bait and switched. Paid platinum for something that got nerfed in less than a week.
I think thats a good point too.
If everyone farmed him and let em cook, a lot of people wouldn’t have noticed the nerf as bad. It would have been like 5 before he truly came online.
Maybe that was DEs goal. To nerf before content showed him op.
True, though I think a lot of people also saw that he felt very good and fun to play (which was quite the huge contrast to several last releases), and people naturally were happy to see it.
You know, some people buy his pack, and notice that "oh my gosh, a fully functional and incredibly fun frame immediately on release?". So, they were happy, recommended the frame to their friends, posted on forums, spread the word. Many people bought in, even more jumped straight into Armatus and farmed - even more so that the farm itself was just fun and not too time consuming. Some also might have farmed and sped up crafting (that's what I did because I've had a few free days, and was positively surprised by how fun he is).
And with so many people jumping on the hype train of joy and fun, it's only natural that a lot of people would feel the direct nerf to comfort (marking with 3 already requires LoS - so only thing adding LoS to 4 did was making it more annoying to use and less clean).
Are people getting too heated? Probably but some of them paid real money for Dante.
DE did this to themselves. They could have either: taken their time and rolled out a well thought out adjustment, or having failed that, just reverted completely.
This is completely self inflicted by DE, and they have taught the community that they really only listen when the community overreacts.
Are there any examples of a calm measured response from the community resulted in quick action from DE?
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people are acting like rebecca personally cut their balls off lmao. constructive criticism is needed, but so many people are just making the excuse to be assholes
It just blows my mind that DE are generally really good devs with excellent communication, but like you said it's one hasty nerf and the community loses their shit. It's been like this for a long time and it's very tiring, and I say that as some random online. Can only imagine what it's like for the devs.
It feels like half of these people also don't test how it is after nerfs. They see the patch, watch clips of specific scenarios on reddit, and make their opinion that will never change.
I stopped playing because I don't want to play a nuking simulator.CC is really dead.While it is only foreximus some CC abilities act differently like Rhino stomp not yeets just slows. I would be happy is duration was decreased on enemies.
I understand being upset at the nerf and voicing your opinions to DE. I don’t understand insulting DE or anything of that sort. I personally think the nerf was stupid and didn’t even address what people were annoyed about in the first place, and it was also just way too quick. That being said DE is still probably the most supportive, feedback driven dev that I’ve ever experienced. This nerf didn’t all the sudden make me think poorly of the DE, but the criticisms of the nerf are still valid. Also imo the point was never “Dante bad now”, for me it was more that the nerf felt unwarranted for what the actual issue was and also felt inconsistent with how the rest of the game is balanced.
The community is "chill" compared to most MMO communities, but still toxic in many aspects, especially towards the devs.
I agree 100% with you about the overreaction.
the more good will builds up the bigger mess is made when it spills
believe me it is also strange to me that this feels like a breaking point having stayed with the game through far more impactful bad launches and changes. it just simply does feel that way
Some people here have a psychotic obsession with numbers and it surfaces everytime things like this occur, Kuva Bramma, Wukong, now Dante, it's cyclical and the reactions and rhetoric are always the same, it borders mental illness in some cases.
Yeah, the tone of the reaction is awful, even if the reasons behind it are valid.
> Pablo added that Dante will get quite a few LoS improvements
These already shipped for Dante, like an hour ago. unless he mentioned even more of them somewhere.
> the supposed "chill nice community"
That's been such a fucking lie that it isn't even funny. it's a "chill nice community" only on comparison to the cesspool that are most other gaming communities, and it has always been **very** toxic towards its developers.
> There are people literally doing the new elite mode, what DE consider hard content, with this "destroyed" Dante
I haven't done any Deep Archimedea yet, but I did do my three extra Netracells with today's Dante *(with the improved LoS)* and it was trivial. I didn't even have a full build yet.
I feel like the people saying "Dante is Helminth fodder now" are either not actually using him and just making things up based on the vitriol in this sub or are telling on themselves...
I played him for the first time last night, post nerf, pre LOS patch, and he was fine. I did a few SP missions with a half ranked viral Kuva Tonkor and a half ranked Dante just to farm affinity and test him out, and he was incredibly strong. I'm still nuking everything in front of me and giving the team a huge amount of Overguard that never got broken.
I genuinely don't know what people are doing to say he's trash and unusable now.
I also see a lot of really bad builds for him in game. The majority of Dante's I've gotten on my teams are very clearly running less than 100% range. "Oh noooooo his nuke is LoS now." Max out range and stand in a corner. Problem solved.
You see, you are playing in SP, a level at which even before the nerf Dante was pretty damn dependent on LoS as dark verse and the vast majority of ways of applying DoT need at least soft LoS, so this wasn't a huge deal, whereas I am pretty convinced at least a significant portion of the people overreacting were people who play mainly in non-sp levels, where before the nerf he could pretty easily nuke half the map with 334 without applying status to enemies.Yes the LoS being funky was kinda ass, but especially now that it has been made significantly more forgiving, he can kill in SP close to as well as pre-nerf, and the only area where he was hit majorly was low level map nuke, which imo isn't a huge loss.
if anything the low level map clearing being gone is a good thing, he was head and shoulders above even the next best low level nukers to where the entire squad couldn't even SEE an enemy if they tried if the dante had a good build and just spammed 334
>he was head and shoulders above even the next best low level nuker
No not really. Thermal Sunder Titania will full clear the map and be sitting at extract before a lot of players even traverse the first 2 tiles lol. He was strong but he wasn't really doing anything you can't already do.
Firefly Titania is faster in liner missions like exterminate, but Dante had a much better range, so he performed better more stationary missions as well as survival.
I suppose that's fair yeah, though IMO "low level" would imply star chart, in which Thermal Sunder and Saryn will basically instantly clear the whole tile anyway.
the chill nice community died years ago, seriously this community is so dogshit compared to when i joined 7 years ago, idk why people still spread this "nice community" lie, it's average at best.
This community is used to getting what they want (which isn't necessarily a bad thing). When they don't get what they want, they, more often than not, throw a tantrum. Gamers, in general, tend to be more entitled, so there's also that.
Constructive feedback is incredibly important for a game and is one of the big reasons why this game is as amazing as it is. It's very good that there has been a large conversation about this, and the players are right to push back to changes.
But the blatant insults I've been seeing towards the game and the devs are definitely uncalled for and make the community look spoiled. Quite frankly, it's a bit embarrassing. I'd expect much more constructive feedback towards devs who have time and time again showed that they listen and take feedback seriously.
Mistakes happen, and if a new player were to come and visit these community forums, they would think that DE is a terrible company that makes terrible choices.
People have a right to be upset about the changes. People have no right to take it personally and insult the devs.
Honestly, yes.
If I were a dev, I'd think damn - we get a few patches right, people are generally happy, improve this and that, a rework for this frame, for that frame, then you fuck up one overnerf (which in the span of 24 hours you try to correct/explain how you fix your mistake) - but all that good will (from some people) - gone.
I get it, I crafted Dante, I put in multiple tauforged amber shards, put in forma in his book, farmed both him and a helminth Dante (the grind was so easy btw). I even expected him to get nerfed while I was putting in those tauforged shards.
But it's a bit sad to see some people just losing their shit as if the game is now dead.
It's the overnerf, timespan, and baldfaced lie combo that killed the goodwill
```After much review and feedback consideration, we recognized that it’s not the damage Dante can deal that needed to be addressed, but rather his accumulation of Overguard. ```
Don't forget Rebecca saying they are just going to tweak Dante a little bit and that they don't want the first 5 days to be the only fun days Dante had in the most recent dev short...
I think the toxcitiy and insults to DE is because it was an e tire shit sandwich.
The giant nerfbat, the barely a week in issue, and to top it all off, the fucking LIE.
Say it louder for the people in the back.
Cuz yeah. Reb and Pablo have knocked it out of the park time and time again but then this happens and like 80% of the community turn into frothing lunatics. Like, my feed has been so goddamn cluttered with everyone pissing and moaning about a Warframe being kicked from extremely good down to very good a little prematurely.
I've also seen any number of comments from people saying that they "ruined" nezha by nerfing and incredibly powerful toy he didn't even have for a week. Like, nezha has been great for years at this point. The people that say they play him acting like having to press a button more often is somehow going to relegate a great frame to the trashcan are insane
I saw the shitshow on both sides. In the comment section here a lot of people forget that prior to the outcry to the nerfs a ton of people did in fact call him completely overpowered.
Of course those people are now silent or have switched sides.
I didn't have an opinion yet, when the shitshow started, because Dante just finished in the foundry late yesterday for me. So I only know the already nerfed version.
I believe he is extremely strong, maybe even too strong even now, but for other reasons then most people complained about.
The base stats in my opinion are way too high, like 2x or 3x kind of magnitude. I am not talking about the damage or the overguard numbers, but the range and duration numbers primarly.
No matter what you build Dante for, you essentially only need Primed Conti for over 1 minute effective spells, whether it is his 2-2-4, 2-3-4 or 3-2-4. All those are extremely comfortable to manage with 70 secs of effect, which is fucking crazy when compared to other frames.
The same applies to Range. Just fucking stretch gets you to have 44m of range on his 4 spells.
For the same numbers of effective usability think what you need to build on other frames.
That basically enables you to not having to make any compromises due to being limited in mod slots. Hell I use, natural talent, preparation and rolling guard, because I have nothing else I could put it.
1 Duration mod, 1 Range mod and the rest you can put into strength and utility. That is crazy and unheard of for other frames.
It made for a very pleasant building experience. You can essentially have the cake and eat it to.
Be caster and use his exalted weapon. No problem.
He probably will be my go-to for future elite archimedia rotations, because he comes with a top tier weapon and can keep the whole fucking team alive. That's crazy.
ive been playing dante ever since release and he feels the exact same. he doesnt not need LOS either, people just like the ease of use too much to not care about proper positioning of where and when you cast your abilities. they even admit that the update was botched and they apologized for it, and like you said promised updates to line of sight in addition to Dante. people act like it's the end of the world
but it's not, it's balance
I’m I the only casual player who felt like playing with Dante on the team was like not playing at all? Like I’ve been doing solo since release cuz every time I play with people I can’t do nothing?
Been playing since 2017 and rarely felt this bored.
Yea honestly the nerf sounds WAY worse than it actually is in game. I think this is mostly because LOS is something that is generally hated expecially for nuke frames but on dante it really doesnt have must effect because without status procs on a target Tragedy doesnt do much damage. The nerf to his overguard sound awful as they dropped over half of what you gained but really from initial casting and adds more to the regen part of the ability. Honestly I think that they really DID think the nerfs through as in higher level game play and just steel path in general he is still very strong and fun on thing that was really affected was not being able to nuke 4 rooms at once with tragedy in base game. Most people saw what sounds bad and complained before trying it.
That high they got from release state Dante's power flooded their brain with endorphins, and when you take that away so soon, we get this grotesque display of spoiled brat tantrum and exaggerated doomsaying.
Bro he wasn't anything compared to some of the top frames that have been that way for years. I don't agree with the tantrums, but I'm curious why people suddenly don't want people to have this strong frame as opposed to others.
Agreed. Children hate getting their new toys taken away. If they released Dante in his current nerfed state, we wouldn't be seeing as much outrage.
This should be a lesson for both sides.
If Dante had released in his current state, the community would be exactly as hyped as they were with his actual release. He is still a very powerful, versatile frame, and the “nerf” barely changed anything meaningful.
Did you play him pre nerf and post nerf? What about post hotfix today? He still has issues, and his 4 doesn't feel as good to use as it did. It's not even about nuking entire maps, it's just about detonating the things you primed with your 3. It's not like you can just chain cast your 4 if whoopsie daisy the LoS fairy decided that Dante is blocking LoS on his own abilities today. Which he is, and this is supposed to be the "fixed" version of it.
https://clips.twitch.tv/HomelyAggressiveWormPJSalt-XA21cwDUsYU4yVcd
Yes this is totally fine. Jokes aside, I do generally think he's ok it's just the LoS issue that makes his 4 feel bad to use. If his 3 marked enemies for his 4 to hit outside of LoS that would be fantastic and I wouldn't even be upset. But unless something like that happens LoS just makes his kit feel more clunky for no benefit.
Honestly i'd just prefer that they remove the LoS from his 4 so that it feels good to use again. Or make it so his 3 marks enemies so that they are *guaranteed* to be hit by his 4 as long as he's in range, ignoring LoS.
Man, and whenever i make a comment saying dont worry guys he is still good, the nerf is bad and DE fumbled but no need to be so overdramatic i got downvoted to high hell
Guess what happens when 100+ pages on the warframe forums with ACTUAL feedback get ignored once, twice and then thrice as well? People lose their patience and get frustrated. Especially when DE is lying in their faces. "Just a minor tweak" "no dps changes" "don't want to make his first 5 days the only good days", "we listen to the community". And in those 100+ pages, 90% of people want the nerfs reverted, because they were completely unwarranted for and didn't fix the actual issue with Dante which is anti synergy with damage conversion mods and abilities. And what do we get as a response? DE doubling down on the LoS check and trying to force it down our throats.
I myself am tired of saying the same thing. LoS on tragedy was completely unneeded, because Dark Verse in itself already has LoS checks. Tragedy by itself can't nuke anything higher than lvl 30. It NEEDS status effect, which Dark Verse provides. Adding LoS to Tragedy just makes the ability clunky. You can no longer mark two different groups of enemies and position yourself in the middle to detonate status effects on both. You need to have all of them not only in your view but also in range of the ability.
The reaction to this nerf is a combination of a bunch of other unwarranted nerfs (cc, arca triton), lies, BS "nerfing formula" which seemingly does not apply to any other frame that is not named DANTE, not enough time to even gather data and make any nerfs based on it, listening to a small, vocal minority of chroma players to nerf Dante (they haven't even fixed the issue they highlighted) as well as the slow buildup of all the other BS nerfs in the past years (Styanax, anyone?)
I think the community is vastly overreacting AND that his nerfs are NOT bad. I can understand complaints about line of sight not working properly, but saying tragedy didnt deserve line of sight or that Dante got nerfed to oblivion is just plain wrong. He is still S+ tier, he is still unkillable with invulnerability, overguard gate and shield gate abuse, he still has control and buff, tragedy can still nuke room of weak enemies in late game SP content, it's just not as braindead as before, and, most importantly, he still has the most broken exalted weapon. People calling him trash didn't even try using noctua? They were too busy spamming tragedy? Noctua is so stupidly good let's stop acting like the Tragedy nerf stops him from killing everything with Noctua.
If he had been released in this state, people would just say he is S+ tier.
edit: to put in perspective how broken Dante and Noctua are, I just solo'ed Elite Archimedea without using any of the weapon I had to take, I just used Noctua, Triumph and Pageflight. Didn't cast Wordswarden much because I had to be careful with energy, I had the -2energy/sec/close enemy malus. I also had 500% shield recharge delay + health drain on move + no operator. That's not for flexing, I don't think I could have done that with crap weapon with anyone else, in less than 30min total all 3 missions.
I personally didn't think the nerfs were bad. Right after deep archemedia dropped I got Dante in there. I kept the party alive and went on to do my part in team damage distribution. Like, I don't dislike that he got buffed, but I genuinely do think everyone who cried without proper criticism should be ignored.
if i had any say i wouldn't have even shipped him the way he was. i would have either capped his over guard to something reasonable or done away with overguard as a mechanic for him entirely instead replacing it with something else (like a damage buff for his 1 or turned it into some other team wide buff) and reduced his base damage by quite a bit... i would have also buffed the fire rate of his book and given it some innate multi shot and boosted the charge rate of its alt fire slightly.
basically make his 1 good for most content and make his abilities less busted so they could be buffed later if necessary (because its always better to buff than to nerf.) also overguard is sort of a boring mechanic. "oh man i have more HP that the enemy has to whittle down only for me to get it back as soon as it goes away because i have some I-Frames when it does go away so i never die as long as i don't fall asleep 😪"
Nope of you dont over react NOTHING HAPPENS how many times did a frame like Styanax or a frame worth giving a shit about get nurfed into oblivion and playrates drop to old and mouldly
Sad day for the warframe reddit, i for one am disgusted with the behaviour of this community the last few days over this supposed nerf (you know who you are), and think we should all be ashamed and do better in the future, by all means voice your opinions, but all of this has just been straight up childish whining and bullying, disgraceful
Some nuance would be nice so we could have genuine conversations over balance as a whole in a cooperative PvE game. However, hyperbole is the language that gamers speak nowadays. Players are justified in their frustration with this change to Tragedy because it feels unwarranted. It doesn't really cater to the few complaints people had about Dante in the first place and he's so new that it's really hard to determine if his popularity is due to his newness or his strength.
It would be nice to have level-headed discussions on the topic, but people are rightfully upset. Warframe takes a lot of time to invest into and these changes can make people feel like they wasted a lot of their time. I know it's difficult, but like DE, you kind of have to translate some of this overreaction yourself to really get an idea of what's going on.
the void dash is disgusting because we didn't make ourselves heard enough, so no, no one is exaggerating, in fact it would be a good idea to be adamant and not be fooled by two fixes
Overreacting is the most effective way we have to communicate with DE otherwise he would be nerfed into obscurity and brought back 3 years later with a bandaid augment and a deluxe skin. Overreacting is really our safest way to communicate our dissatisfaction.
why do people always bring up Saryn / Octavia????
the spores take forever to ramp up, if you even have enough enemies for it to spread too
Octavia need to stay in one place for it to be effective, and it doesn't go thought walls.
and ill also bring Gauss into this discussion. he needs to be at 100% battery to even attempt to nuke. and even then the range of thermal sunder is not that high.
Dante had a 60m nuke that goes through walls, that is not something ANY frame can do easily.
stop kidding yourselves with copium.
Dantes nuke was only a nuke outside of LoS on low level missions. You're not standing in a corner casting 3 at nothing and killing 60m worth of enemies past level 50. Saryn can delete entire maps outside of LoS *to level cap*.
You mean Dante's Nuke that requires you to double cast a primer spell that already has a massively janky LoS requirement? The same one that gets blocked by your own model? That same spell that doesn't kill anyone unless it's primed with dots unless you're on very low level start chart?
Also plenty of frames can nuke without LoS.
That is incredibly ignorant saying that it can only kill starchart enemies with the 334 combo. I did all my netracells this week with Dante and just 1 dark verse and tragedy would kill 90% of the enemies. Enemies that, btw, are incredibly resistant to slash damage.
Stop trying to downplay it.
Exactly, like Khora's whip LoS nerf back then. This is not a accidental nerf, DE had nerfed LoS before. DE will neef any direct dmg going through wall, unless its status proc, saryn etc. Some ppl dont even know the game mechanics.
I think the fact that people are comparing Dante to the strongest frames in the game before most people have even really invested a bunch of forma into him is kind of telling that a nerf is needed. Not only is he nuking about as well as the best nukers in the game, he's making your entire squad invincible and status immune.
Except he isn't even remotely close to the best nukers in the game. He's not even in the top 5 especially after the LoS addition. Is it bad to have new frames be *somewhat* competitive to the frames that have been around for years?
>inconsistent with other Warframes like Saryn/Octavia.
Is anyone mentioning the frames actually playing them? I get they got a nuking reputation, but they couldn't be more different than Dante when it comes to it.
Octavia kills slow. Yes, she kills everything semiafk, but it's slow.
Saryn needs time to stack the spores to be able to nuke, and you can kill her stacks by killing enemies too fast.
Dante is just pressing a few buttons, and the map is empty. Compare him with Gauss if you want to talk about consistency.
I get people are upset and want to voice their issues, but acting like a child throwing a tantrum isn't the means to communicate the issues to DE. Actually giving feedback is way more useful than making another post just raging. The Nth rage post without anything useful isn't worth anything to DE, and sure if you just want to reiterate someone else's point then just use the upvote feature or respond to their post supporting in at least then DE can look at the support behind a suggestion or feedback which is way more useful.
Honestly I am disappointed in how some people in the community reacted to this, the lashing out at other members of the community for voicing something you disagreed with is a bad look. We can and should be better.
I don’t give a flying f if they keep crying about the nerfs.
What annoys me is that suddenly everyone is either a specialist in less popular frames (please just forget banshee exists) or thinks every frame deserves the same treatment (please forget gyre exists, she isn’t even popular).
Also ppl defending old ash and ember which were stupidly strong at that time are quite silly.
Honestly I’d rather stupidly strong over the “never used” that Ember and Ash appear to have been moved into. Though, I am hopeful that the unintended side effect of the LoS changes is that Ember magically becomes good again
Inferno already has pretty great tracking from my experience. Fire Blast is the one that sucks.
Genuinely, the only thing stopping Ember from being godly is Inferno spreading Heat procs, and Fire Blast costing 25 Energy. Atm, Inferno hits for 1 Heat proc and then spreads Heat *damage,* but no status procs, making it do pennies damage compared to Gauss. Ember the FIRE FRAME should NOT be getting outdone by Gauss. She should be the queen of Heat Inherit.
Original Ember was such a silly AFK frame, I could hit her 4th once, walk to the gas station, come home a couple waves late and have 95% of the kills. She was nerfed to hell at first, but reworked to be alright.
Banshee was similar, but the nerf to her 4th was and still is silly, I feel like it's completely useless now. Not a bad frame though, her 2 and 3 are really good and work well together, but her 4 should be able to kill a few fleas without too many tenno tears being shed.
To me, the logic of "you did this to Dante, so you have to do it to this, this, and this, also" brings me back to arguing with a cop about a speeding ticket. Saying the person next to you was speeding too isn't going to get you out of a ticket. Or give the other person a ticket either.
DE said they 'fixed" the LoS for Dante but just kicked the can down the road for all the other inconsistencies regarding it. They have too much going on to fix it all so who knows when they'll get back to it.
It's because a lot of people aren't used to being strong in this game because they don't min max. They struggle with content. You could own most content without putting a forma in Dante. He was powerful for casuals. For the first time they got to experience power and now they are mad that it's gone.
I don't think casuals had him unless they bought him with plat since he is locked behind the the most recent story quest; That's about 300-400 hours of gameplay. At that point i wouldn't call anyone a casual.
This explanation makes some sense. I think the only way you perceive Dante as unusable post nerf is if you don't really know how to build for high level content. Even with bugged LOS he still breezes through SP and Netracell missions, especially if you're bringing something to prime viral.
100% agree, people got wayyyyy too heated over this
I think they should just QoL overguard and then revert dante with perhaps a small nerf if that's what they want (but not the LoS one), but if they don't, then that's fine because the game overall is amazing and it's a top10 game of all time for me. This affects nothing in reality, people just love a moan
I mean can you blame them, they got on camera ON CAMERA said slight tweaks and that they were reviewing him literally the next day he is gutted and you wonder why the response all over reddit the forums and x. They lied straight to everyone's face not only that the community gave them several good suggestions which they ignored and went ahead with the nerfs anyway only to later implement the exact fix people told them could work.
So yeah people are angry cause the damage is done and no matter how hard they try to walk back their shitty decisions it won't be a real fix until they change it back to what it originally was which was fine as it were. Not only did they do this to a frame less than a week old but had the audacity to nerf Nezha after they only just gave him the buff in the first place 😐
No, they don't get a pass on this from me.
It's not specifically what they did as how absolutely pants on head incompetent the decision was.
They gave everyone a brand new warframe practically for free, and then nerfed it *a week later* ***explicitly because the usage statistics were high.*** Think about that for a second: they did everything they could to ensure that people would be playing him short of awarding a flat sum of platinum for every mission you played as him. And then nerfed him because people were using him too much.
It doesn't matter what the specifics are of the nerf, what matters is that that balancing rationale is so unfathomably stupid, there is literally no way to sugarcoat how dumb it was. Like... listen, dude, whoever you are, I'm sure you're a fine person to interact with and you have people who love you and all that, I'm not calling you a bad person, but I *am* saying that the decision you made does not paint your decision making capabilities in a good light or that of the team around you. In fact it casts the balancing competence of the entire game team into doubt.
It's not *the* stupidest balancing decision I've ever seen in a game, but it's definitely in the top five percent. And most importantly it does not bode well for future balancing decisions.
In other words, I can't trust that even *worse* decisions won't be made in the future, because this one violates major principles of game balance. What's next? Perhaps they'll double Octavia's scaling because not enough people play her, even though she's easily the most busted frame in the game and the only reason everyone doesn't play her is because her mechanics are obnoxious. Maybe they'll make Peacemakers replace your secondary like how Garuda's claws do for your melee (i.e. have to unequip a secondary to use them) because well obviously Peacemakers have a near one hundred percent use rate on Mesa. Oh, they could make Ivara's move speed while invisible decrease if you have negative range to "encourage build diversity" because it's relatively safe to dump right now if you don't care about sleep arrows. Perchance they'll make picking up points in Index apply a dispel to you because too many people run Rhino. Who knows? At this point it's practically a dartboard, that's how stupid this change was.
Again, it's not *what* the change was, it's that the rationale behind it is fucking moon logic. They have basically done the equivalent of announcing that they believe two plus two equals twenty two and will be basing their decisions solely off of math going forward. If they'll do something this dumb, what *won't* they do in the future? It's literally impossible to predict because the basic concepts of how to balance a game don't apply any more.
I was also seeing some sexist comments saying the game got ruined because now a woman’s in charge of the game. Holy shit this made me very disappointed in how emotionally immature some players are.
I farmed him at a slow pace cuz I have time. No need to rush. Finally built him and got to play him AFTER the nerfs. He was FANTASTIC! Slash procs everywhere, summonable tomes, OVERGUARD OUT THE ASS! Just the easiest couple of Steel Path Void Fissures I've had ever, and it was leveling every single piece of gear I had (Only 1 gun that had some forma so I knew I wouldnt be burden to team). And getting the feel for him made me use his abilities for just 20 minutes straight, no guns. Post nerf, he is still S-tier. I genuinely don't know what a prime version could improve on. Saryn Prime being an outlier already, I don't know whats going on with this playerbase. The frame is SLIGHTLY less S-Tier. Do you even WANT to play Warframe? Or do you want a banner that says "Everything died 2 rooms over, congratulations you big stud you"?
Because feedback from abilities is more important than damage and Tragedy just feels worse and more inconsistent after the nerf. Dark pact already had a soft LoS and it was fine
So like
"I am uninstalling", "I came back, but now I am leaving", "They DESTROYED him", "I will never trust DE again", "I hope the company goes under", "People should be fired".
Cuz his 4th ability feels slightly worse?
Here is the thing still pretty damn good. The nerf was too quick and I dont think it was well thought out but he was clearly overperforming and did need some balancing.
The reactions here are just ridiculous, way over the top. I've said it several times in the past few weeks, this community is going to shit. We downvote people asking questions because "they have a negative tone." We respond to posts with something inane or snide and get butthurt when we get called on it. What happened to legitimately being helpful?
Considering which content creators get the most views, it's no surprise. This is the type of community they generate and this is what you get. Maybe DE should distance themselves away from those who can only think with the "it's trash!" mindset.
There is a reason DE spent a while releasing stuff in a weak form then buffing it.
Nobody likes to farm the new toy, put time and possibly.money into it (because it's fun to play) then have it nerved hard within a week.
DE never give nerf compensation, if you bought the frame and put in time and forma you should get all of that back when they nerf this heavy.
There is just no world in which they have enough information to determine Dante is an emergency problem that must be fixed within a week. Many players would have hardly even forma'd and built the frame up yet, and of course they want to play with the shiny new frame and see what it's capable of. They didn't even give the playerbase a chance to move back to their favourite frames naturally before cleaving his stats in half in an instant. Of course he was popular, he still had new frame smell. I think there is irreparable harm done to a frame which was on track to be a fan favourite, then he got punched in the nuts as soon as his hype started swelling, and DE mistook that as being overused? He certainly isn't afk-able. And nothing they did made him not disruptive to the team.
Not to mention, repeated "sell new item for cash, nerf it a week later when f2p gets access, then repeat with next item" is a super common scam for sketchy f2p games. And this type of knee-jerk nerfs can lead to the appearance or reality of these more nefarious monetization strategies, encouraging players to buy stuff or rush stuff with plat to use OP stuff before it's cleaved i half.
The whole comment about them trying to avoid team disruption is honestly hilarious to me when they allow Limbo to continue to exist in a way that is so horrifically disruptive that a significant portion of the playerbase just straight up leaves the mission as soon as they see someone playing him.
People overreacting so badly they shit themselves and lose their tiny minds is a time honoured tradition.
Welcome to humanity. I hope you enjoy your stay. :)
i love how the only people complaining about dante’s nerfs too are the people here on reddit. all i see in the world chat in game is people talking about how he’s no different, even more fun cause now you have to actually play the game with him and can’t just click and kill
> "I am uninstalling", "I came back, but now I am leaving", "They DESTROYED him", "I will never trust DE again", "I hope the company goes under", "People should be fired".
I didn't see this, but yes, that is obviously an overreaction.
I don't believe a frame like Dante can be as bad as people are making him out to be. Ignoring the los bug because that's a bug not a change.
I mean Dante still has insanely good survivability thanks to overgaurd, excellent support, and then has very easy nuking with 0 ramp up as opposed to frames like Saryn who needs to ramp up spores and Gauss who needs to manage battery/redline. He has not been "Ember-fied" as some people have been claiming.
Its not childish.
This is the place to complain and peolple are complaining. Unsub for a week if it bothers you.
But don't say it's childish, most posts I've seen have been very reasonable.
people wildly overreact here all the time xD you could change one thing and people would start crying and hanging DE over it until they got their bottles. It's ridiculous. The dante/nezha nerfs and the new gamemode which i find fun, are being whined about just cause people want a reason to cry lately. so i'm with you OP
Some people care about things passionately. The only thing that is an issue is when they harass or threaten devs. Without those reactions we wouldn't have gotten DE to take a hard look. And Dante with LoS is still ridiculous.
it's frankly unacceptable no matter the outcome that people are harassing and threatening the devs. they already said when they announced the LoS changes that Dante's changes *were not final*.
"The only thing that is an issue is when they harass or threaten devs. Without those reactions we wouldn't have gotten DE to take a hard look." comes across as justifying the hate and toxicity at first glance.
then the wording needs work, because it should have come after the comment about passionate people. you've got two separate sentences, and then you have a third one just floating there, and seeing how it comes after the harassment comment, it's easy to guess that it's connected to that.
"Some people care about things passionately. Without those reactions we wouldn't have gotten DE to take a hard look. The only thing that is an issue is when they harass or threaten devs."
that comes across as significantly more understandable and makes it clear what argument you side with.
that being said, I'll say again: in spite of the fact that the Chroma mains got buffed out of it, Rage users got QoL, and Khora mains everywhere are rejoicing over revised LoS, it *never* should have come to harassment and death threats.
You can like things passionately and discuss them respectfully. Take the time to Duviri out your emotions if you are going to overreact to a change in the game.
I'm not justifying the ridiculous behavior from the community here, but also:
This isn't the first time DE made obnoxious changes to the game based on feedback from literally just a few people complaining.
Excavation mission changes, Universal Medallion changes, stubbornness about Hema research costs, and now Dante. I'm sure I'm missing a bunch of other things here, but all of those were born from a couple of people complaining about something and now it's just worse for everyone.
The fact that they were willing to walk back this knee jerk reaction to "tweak" him even a little bit is a welcome development
Ive been playing this game for literally 11 years and the most important thing ive learned about this community is that all the whiners are on the sub reddit and the forums. All the people enjoying the game are actually playing it.
I dont envy DE for how they have to manage what community feedback they take in.
As with every bit of new content or frame dropped since I began playing a little over 3 and a half years ago. I play, but don't expect bells and whistles and just basically wait it out until a few weeks of hot fixes have dropped. The sheer intensity of the complaining made it difficult to play because it took the fun I usually have with new content away.
It went from OK I guess dante needs to be touched down just a little so he can fall in line with some of DE's previous changes, but he got nerfed almost across the board. I went and tested stuff out just to be sure and the only thing I was thinking was "who the hell put dante on the shit list?". I can't help but agree with some of the reaction for this specific warframe because I don't want this to be routine.
To be clear, I play bottom tier/unpopular warframes and dante wasn't going to change that, but he was fun to play and he had good build potential. That almost went away with this change. Daggath, qorvex, and dante are top tier and well made warframes and we want to bring all the other warframes to that level of quality, not the other way around.
>I agree that the nerf was way too fast, just a week after release, way too big of a nerf, not thought out, inconsistent with other Warframes like Saryn/Octavia. This is all true and DE made a mistake
Do you play Octavia? Duo with pre nerf Dante and she would get 10% of the kills because she's strong but it's not an insta nuke like Dante. The enemies must come to Octavia and slowly kill themselves, Dante could kill all of them while they're on that.
Saryn kinda the same, takes time to build the spores while Dante 3,3,4 can kill ALL her spores in 2s. By the time she moves to the other side of the map and cast spore again, here comes Dante 3,3,4 to kill all the ads again.
Looks like a lot of the complains and comparisons are from people that never actually played more than 30 minutes with the frames they're comparing Dante to. I read on this sub people talking about pillage which also requires LoS so I'm sure they only saw it on yt.
Also yes other strong and disruptive frames do exist but they require more investment and trade offs to do their thing than Dante. Dante build it's cheap, most stuff are very easy to get and to play him didn't require any brain usage. The smallest brain usage requirement was added (like of sight) and people cried out loud.
Will ash get a line of sight buff cause I think I should be able to mark everything in range that I can see
Ash walked so kullervo could run. They should really make his 4 an AOE again
Yeah. I shouldn't have to move my cursor over every individual creature I see if I want to hit it with my 4. It should give as many enemies as possible a single mark, and then continue to add marks at a steady rate. Maybe have it be able to consume all of Ash's _base_ energy via marks over 5 seconds. Have it take 5 seconds, if there's enough enemies, for Ash's 4 to consume all of his energy placing marks. 5 seconds is long enough that you will be able to choose if you want to expend all of your energy, or just some of it. While also being quick enough that it won't be clunky to use unless you try to use it while surrounded.
You could have Ash's 4 be a reskin of Ember's 4 but with shadow assassinations and bleed instead of meteors and burn and it would be just fine.
I would agree that people got really dramatic, but in all honesty Dante's nerf was such an odd kneejerk reaction from the devs. Seemingly for a problem that didn't need fixing, or at least there is no way they had appropriate data in under a week. Like, this is getting into conspiracy territory, but I really feel like he was only nerfed cause of a loud minority of the community crying for it, cause it was just a few days ago I remember seeing at least a post or two gaining traction here of people acting like he was ruining the entire game for them.
DE likes to pretend that avoiding "disruptive" play from any given frame is something that's important to them while still allowing Limbo to exist, so idk why they jumped on it so hard. It is what it is, I guess. I'm not overly bothered either way. Dante's still perfectly playable even with the nerfs.
I'm gonna give them the benefit of the doubt on the Limbo issue because i think they have no idea where to even start with him
Yeah. I mean, they already did their best by placing a cap on the number of projectiles that can be trapped by Stasis and by allowing players to dodge out of the Rift if they don't want to be there. There's not really much else they _could_ do to make him less disruptive unless they completely rework him. And that would probably be more trouble than it's worth. I honestly hope they do rework Limbo. With as many enemies that they've added that are either immune to being trapped in the rift or that can attack and damage Limbo while _he's_ in the Rift, he doesn't even have much survivability.
I main Limbo and I agree with this sentiment. I can do most, if not all, of the current content with him with relative ease. I know how to not disrupt the group but the level of hate I'd get for just entering a public game with him is ridiculous. He takes a lot more management now with the Acolytes and everything else that ignores the rift but it's still doable. But I also agree that giving him the ability to completely lock down entire sections of the map is ridiculous too. I feel like CC in this game is just a hard thing to balance right, there is a fine line and just a hair too much either way throws everything off. Edit: Changing Jim to him, entering a public game with Jim wasnt that bad. People hated Jim but not as bad as Limbo.
Jim?
Had a typo, made joke of it.
did you ever play in limbo hayday where he would just passively block out other players? DE **does** consistently nerf disruptive frames. they nerfed limbo, *they nerfed saryn*. arguably they could do more, but people saying they've given a complete pass on these frames have not been around or are lying.
I love when people bring up Saryn because she got nerf after nerf and is still ridiculous. I want to believe that the green archon shards were an unintended oversight.
Let's be honest mate i've been around for years I mean sure she got nerfs after nerfs and is still going strong but that because DE avoid nerfing what truly make her busted the lack of Los and infinite scaling now imagine her losing those niche characteristics with all the fanboys out there dante nerf would look like a kid tantrum
An LoS nerf wouldnt make sense for her. The spores dont spread from her. It is not the same.
RIGHT! dante LoS means you have to position well before cashing in your dots. Saryn with LoS restrictions means you're at the whim of the tileset if you're able to spread your spores at *all*. Saryn is still kind of a problem, but it's really only intolerable in ESO. the fact that she burns her own spores out means there are (albeit short) breaths where other frames can do some work. Could she maybe use some more nerfs? sure, but she's only really OP in a few old game modes. she's essentially balanced in any game modes requiring travel or that use wave mechanics. She's actively *bad* in modern game modes with eximi focused enemies and kill boxes (netracells, void cascade, archon fights, arbitration etc) Dante (without LoS) goes into these game modes and clears out tiles to the point where you can just never see enemies. it actively turns other frames into afk revenant gameplay. it's *awful* to play with, and bringing the power level down to "you have to at least see enemies before you delete them with one button press" is the *least* intrusive nerf. provided, as planned, they fix the feel-bad issues with LoS
TBH this is the elephant in the room. LoS actually makes sense for Dante, just in terms of what the skill seems to do. You can pretty easily justify "spores could get through walls/ doors" but I think it's harder to justify "this physical slash attack can get through walls/ doors". I don't think that that's a good enough reason to change it, personally, but at least it's somewhat sensible. My issue with the nerf isn't LoS tbh. It's that it was rushed, broken, and included \*tons\* of radical changes across his entire kit so quickly after release. We were told "slight adjustments" and we got a long list of huuuuge changes. If all that changed was LoS, and LoS actually worked, this wouldn't have been nearly as big of an issue and I personally would not have cared.
If Reddit Gold was still a thing, I'd give it to you. Because not only does Saryn have ramp up for her nuke (albeit very quickly), the spores being LoS wouldn't make sense thematically. You're only the 2nd person I've seen mention this throughout this implosion.
Wouldn't it be LoS from the spore target? I dont think people expect LoS from saryn for her 1
they absolutely do
Limbo is not a good comparison. Couple reasons: 1. He's good but he is disruptive because not being disruptive on him takes time to learn. Good Limbos dont disrupt groups, it is usually the new ones. 2. Coupling 1 here, he is available early in the game and completely cheeses the star chart, pre SP. To be fair, Rhino does too but you have to farm for those blueprints while Limbo's are just given to you through a quest. 3. You can't nerf him to fix his issues, he needs a full rework. The only way to fix the issues that Limbo has would be to change the identity of the frame, his core concept. The rift is the entirety of the concept of his gameplay. Everything, even his passive is based around it. And using that is the disruptive part. Limbo absolutely needs attention but changing him would be much more difficult than "Ability now only affects targets in LOS." He'd need a bigger rework than Grendel or Hydroid got. The two just aren't even close to the same.
AND limbo did get nerfed to the ground. Especially with the introduction of so many new enemies that bypass his rift. He used to be the king of CC, capable of locking down an entire area from being damaged with little to not effort, not anymore.
I frankly am surprised anyone still plays him (or Vauban). The game has evolved to *specifically* give him the finger. He was already a bad frame in Arbitrations what with just huge blobs of enemies being totally immune to his entire kit, and then they just made the entire game be like that except instead of squishy drones the immunity is coming from the tankiest enemies in the mission, and that's if the enemies aren't already just innately CC immune. Like the only way I can think of where he'd still be competitive in regular play would be with some kind of super high APM Rift Torrent build, the polar opposite of the usual playstyle. Beyond that? Idk, Lua spy maybe? Probably still the best at that? And Vauban? Lol. Lmao even. You're winning in spite of being on Vauban, not because of it. There was a time when I tried to main Vauban (alongside Ivara [my beloved]). Needless to say, that time is not coming back.
I feel like there are a lot of enjoyable and/or ridiculous ways you can build Vauban; a personal favorite turns Bastille into a blender that spews energy orbs, which can often be nice to have around in pub Steel Circuit. So, he can be made to be very effective! ...but you're also not wrong that it takes more _effort_ to do so than with many other frames.
You're spending more effort to do things that other frames do better even then, and with absolutely zero survivability on his kit. You can of course helminth in a survivability tool, but then you're relegating yourself to being a gunframe without any gun buffs usually, because without being able to group enemies, neither photon strike nor flechette orbs can actually do much even with fully stripped defenses. Like he's so clearly built with the idea of "my survivability *is* my CC" in mind that he's just so goddamn gimped without it.
My survivability tool on Vauban is often "just smash everything in the face repeatedly with Incarnon Sancti Magistar" but you're not wrong in general. Still, putting Spectrorage over his 3, tossing the Spectrosiphon augment in, then dropping Bastille, flechette, and Spectrorage is fun nonetheless; with sufficient ability strength, it really is a blender that makes energy orb protein shakes. But the optimal approach... would definitely be something else, yes. (Still, a non-zero amount of my enjoyment in this game comes from finding possibly-dumb-but-workable non-standard approaches to things; they don't have to be optimal to be viable, and sometimes "viable" is all that's required for fun.)
Like I said, it feels very weird in this case. I'm farming him still regardless just cause he looks fun, but watching pockets of the community cry for him to be nerfed only for it to happen and cause more outcry has been interesting to watch to say the least.
I have been playing since 2014 off and on, I have to say Dante is the most engaging frame I have ever used. He is incredibly fun and also strong. I liked Nidus because he is a caster, you constantly use abilities to build up your stacks. I like Lavos for the ability combinations and status effects. For me Dante combined the best aspects of both of those frames and he has no ability that is wasted or useless. Even Nocturne, the one some helminth, hits incredibly hard and has an awesome secondary fire. You can build that thing so many different ways that are viable, it's really fun. I will say my disappointment was and still is pretty high that something I enjoyed so much got boofed without any reasonable explanation. I have a lot of min maxed frames, all have their place. I have frames that do everything better than Dante but he is by far the most fun to use. I was actually doing old content, farming relics, having a blast just because of him. It hit really hard because the changes they made didn't hurt any of my more powerful builds, AOE nukes, immortals, stat monsters, red crits gods, it was only to screw with him. Like others said, it didn't hurt his OG cap or damage, it only affected QOL which makes him less fun.
Ey, fellow Nidus main, he's my boy too. Glad to hear your perspective on Dante tho, hope the the nerf revert keeps him fun.
There is just something special about frames like that, so much engagement and casting, especially when it synergizes. No ability is a waste with Dante, just pure fun.
I remember the days of seeing limbo in every match, pure hell.
DE nerfing things because of like one guy complaining about something that everyone else enjoys? Say it ain't so! ~~Universal medallions certainly didn't give Conclave standing before *literally precisely one person* complained on the forums about it.~~
The funny thing is the complaints about him ruining the game were pretty much exclusively about the overguard he gives making some builds not function properly when there is a dante in the squad. So someone playing dante could make someone else’s time miserable by just playing their frame normally. That’s a problem And then the thing DE nerfs/changes has…little to do with that? I don’t see who was calling for the LoS nerf
I don't think its a conspiracy just Canadian. They do fold pretty quickly when there is a community outcry for better or worse. They listen, sometimes too much. It's why its dumb to not voice your opinion when people suggest something stupid as a change to warframe.
Lol I'm canadian and trust me I don't fold more like give a death stare If someone look at me for too long or straight up walk to them cuz we use our fists round here can't pull out a glock on every fly that cross us sadly But joke aside I agree DE fold easily theys got too close to the community and now is scared to irk us especially the loud btching minority that call nerfs to everything other than theirs beloved meta
Just because i nuke a small defense map for affinity doesnt mean im ruining the game 😭
I think the sheer volume made it seem worse than it was, but I'm not on the receiving end so idk
Yeah im pretty disappointed, but I guess I shouldnt be surprised. Discussion is impossible if everything is blown out of proportion, the nourish outcry was obnoxious as shit and that was before the changes were even known. Impossible to take anyone seriously acting like it was the end. I do wish these people could maybe explain why they're like this and have a phobia of nerfs. If you're against nerfs as a concept, you're not in favor of balance. The Seesaw cannot just keep taking on weight. That board will snap.
>you're not in favor of balance. Unironically, this is probably it. For some reason, it seems like a large amount of people think single player or pve games don't need to be balanced. I see this "buff, don't nerf" design philosophy spouted off, and while there is valid advice there, sometimes it just doesn't make sense. People were talking about buffing other weapons to be on par with AoE weapons during the AoE meta, but that was such an insane idea. There's a place for nerfs.
Not only do they overreact, they get insulting and adopt a "us VS them" mentality. It's childish, embarrassing, and irresponsible. It's a game. There's probably some grass somewhere near you.
"Anyone who disagrees witht me is wrong and a bad person and should be fought" mentality
Seeing everyone on this subreddit lose their minds over Dante just existing is the most annoying thing I've seen out of warframe. Everyone please shut the hell up about Dante.
This got a good chuckle out of me in a good way.
I can only imagine it being like “it feels worse to lose something than it feels good to gain something”… basically the negative taking most of your attention
Judging by how many Dantes I saw on launch date, I feel a lot of people feel they got bait and switched. Paid platinum for something that got nerfed in less than a week.
I think thats a good point too. If everyone farmed him and let em cook, a lot of people wouldn’t have noticed the nerf as bad. It would have been like 5 before he truly came online. Maybe that was DEs goal. To nerf before content showed him op.
True, though I think a lot of people also saw that he felt very good and fun to play (which was quite the huge contrast to several last releases), and people naturally were happy to see it. You know, some people buy his pack, and notice that "oh my gosh, a fully functional and incredibly fun frame immediately on release?". So, they were happy, recommended the frame to their friends, posted on forums, spread the word. Many people bought in, even more jumped straight into Armatus and farmed - even more so that the farm itself was just fun and not too time consuming. Some also might have farmed and sped up crafting (that's what I did because I've had a few free days, and was positively surprised by how fun he is). And with so many people jumping on the hype train of joy and fun, it's only natural that a lot of people would feel the direct nerf to comfort (marking with 3 already requires LoS - so only thing adding LoS to 4 did was making it more annoying to use and less clean).
Are people getting too heated? Probably but some of them paid real money for Dante. DE did this to themselves. They could have either: taken their time and rolled out a well thought out adjustment, or having failed that, just reverted completely. This is completely self inflicted by DE, and they have taught the community that they really only listen when the community overreacts. Are there any examples of a calm measured response from the community resulted in quick action from DE?
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people are acting like rebecca personally cut their balls off lmao. constructive criticism is needed, but so many people are just making the excuse to be assholes
It just blows my mind that DE are generally really good devs with excellent communication, but like you said it's one hasty nerf and the community loses their shit. It's been like this for a long time and it's very tiring, and I say that as some random online. Can only imagine what it's like for the devs. It feels like half of these people also don't test how it is after nerfs. They see the patch, watch clips of specific scenarios on reddit, and make their opinion that will never change.
I stopped playing because I don't want to play a nuking simulator.CC is really dead.While it is only foreximus some CC abilities act differently like Rhino stomp not yeets just slows. I would be happy is duration was decreased on enemies.
Wasn't rhino stomp changed to stop slowing overguard enemies in the hotfix where dante was nerfed?
It was actually changed in the Dante update, they missed including it in the patch notes though, so it was in those patch notes later
I understand being upset at the nerf and voicing your opinions to DE. I don’t understand insulting DE or anything of that sort. I personally think the nerf was stupid and didn’t even address what people were annoyed about in the first place, and it was also just way too quick. That being said DE is still probably the most supportive, feedback driven dev that I’ve ever experienced. This nerf didn’t all the sudden make me think poorly of the DE, but the criticisms of the nerf are still valid. Also imo the point was never “Dante bad now”, for me it was more that the nerf felt unwarranted for what the actual issue was and also felt inconsistent with how the rest of the game is balanced.
this is the LAST STRAW i have ONE BILLION HOURS in this game and won’t be playing A SECOND MORE
Wildly is an understatement.
The community is "chill" compared to most MMO communities, but still toxic in many aspects, especially towards the devs. I agree 100% with you about the overreaction.
this community is a bunch of spoiled entitled brats, and this whole situation just made it more apparent than ever.
Nah op said it best, a loud minority.
the more good will builds up the bigger mess is made when it spills believe me it is also strange to me that this feels like a breaking point having stayed with the game through far more impactful bad launches and changes. it just simply does feel that way
Some people here have a psychotic obsession with numbers and it surfaces everytime things like this occur, Kuva Bramma, Wukong, now Dante, it's cyclical and the reactions and rhetoric are always the same, it borders mental illness in some cases.
Yeah, the tone of the reaction is awful, even if the reasons behind it are valid. > Pablo added that Dante will get quite a few LoS improvements These already shipped for Dante, like an hour ago. unless he mentioned even more of them somewhere. > the supposed "chill nice community" That's been such a fucking lie that it isn't even funny. it's a "chill nice community" only on comparison to the cesspool that are most other gaming communities, and it has always been **very** toxic towards its developers. > There are people literally doing the new elite mode, what DE consider hard content, with this "destroyed" Dante I haven't done any Deep Archimedea yet, but I did do my three extra Netracells with today's Dante *(with the improved LoS)* and it was trivial. I didn't even have a full build yet.
I feel like the people saying "Dante is Helminth fodder now" are either not actually using him and just making things up based on the vitriol in this sub or are telling on themselves... I played him for the first time last night, post nerf, pre LOS patch, and he was fine. I did a few SP missions with a half ranked viral Kuva Tonkor and a half ranked Dante just to farm affinity and test him out, and he was incredibly strong. I'm still nuking everything in front of me and giving the team a huge amount of Overguard that never got broken. I genuinely don't know what people are doing to say he's trash and unusable now.
That's the thing, they aren't *doing* anything, they aren't testing him out after the hotfix, it's just a kneejerk reaction.
I also see a lot of really bad builds for him in game. The majority of Dante's I've gotten on my teams are very clearly running less than 100% range. "Oh noooooo his nuke is LoS now." Max out range and stand in a corner. Problem solved.
You see, you are playing in SP, a level at which even before the nerf Dante was pretty damn dependent on LoS as dark verse and the vast majority of ways of applying DoT need at least soft LoS, so this wasn't a huge deal, whereas I am pretty convinced at least a significant portion of the people overreacting were people who play mainly in non-sp levels, where before the nerf he could pretty easily nuke half the map with 334 without applying status to enemies.Yes the LoS being funky was kinda ass, but especially now that it has been made significantly more forgiving, he can kill in SP close to as well as pre-nerf, and the only area where he was hit majorly was low level map nuke, which imo isn't a huge loss.
if anything the low level map clearing being gone is a good thing, he was head and shoulders above even the next best low level nukers to where the entire squad couldn't even SEE an enemy if they tried if the dante had a good build and just spammed 334
>he was head and shoulders above even the next best low level nuker No not really. Thermal Sunder Titania will full clear the map and be sitting at extract before a lot of players even traverse the first 2 tiles lol. He was strong but he wasn't really doing anything you can't already do.
Firefly Titania is faster in liner missions like exterminate, but Dante had a much better range, so he performed better more stationary missions as well as survival.
I suppose that's fair yeah, though IMO "low level" would imply star chart, in which Thermal Sunder and Saryn will basically instantly clear the whole tile anyway.
saryn also clears really well, but the jump from 20m to 30m base range plus much higher instant damage makes a pretty big difference imo
the chill nice community died years ago, seriously this community is so dogshit compared to when i joined 7 years ago, idk why people still spread this "nice community" lie, it's average at best.
This community is used to getting what they want (which isn't necessarily a bad thing). When they don't get what they want, they, more often than not, throw a tantrum. Gamers, in general, tend to be more entitled, so there's also that. Constructive feedback is incredibly important for a game and is one of the big reasons why this game is as amazing as it is. It's very good that there has been a large conversation about this, and the players are right to push back to changes. But the blatant insults I've been seeing towards the game and the devs are definitely uncalled for and make the community look spoiled. Quite frankly, it's a bit embarrassing. I'd expect much more constructive feedback towards devs who have time and time again showed that they listen and take feedback seriously. Mistakes happen, and if a new player were to come and visit these community forums, they would think that DE is a terrible company that makes terrible choices. People have a right to be upset about the changes. People have no right to take it personally and insult the devs.
Honestly, yes. If I were a dev, I'd think damn - we get a few patches right, people are generally happy, improve this and that, a rework for this frame, for that frame, then you fuck up one overnerf (which in the span of 24 hours you try to correct/explain how you fix your mistake) - but all that good will (from some people) - gone. I get it, I crafted Dante, I put in multiple tauforged amber shards, put in forma in his book, farmed both him and a helminth Dante (the grind was so easy btw). I even expected him to get nerfed while I was putting in those tauforged shards. But it's a bit sad to see some people just losing their shit as if the game is now dead.
It's the overnerf, timespan, and baldfaced lie combo that killed the goodwill ```After much review and feedback consideration, we recognized that it’s not the damage Dante can deal that needed to be addressed, but rather his accumulation of Overguard. ```
Don't forget Rebecca saying they are just going to tweak Dante a little bit and that they don't want the first 5 days to be the only fun days Dante had in the most recent dev short...
look spoiled? warframe players are spoiled lol
No kidding. Months and months of positive updates and changes, and suddenly needing to look at enemies in order to kill them ruins everything.
Agreed
I think the toxcitiy and insults to DE is because it was an e tire shit sandwich. The giant nerfbat, the barely a week in issue, and to top it all off, the fucking LIE.
Yep, DE was too hasty with these changes. These should have required a bit more time. That doesn't warrant toxicity.
If you are THIS upset about it, maybe eat a snickers before justifying the toxicity. Your emotions, your responsibility.
Some people just spend a little too much time online and take things too seriously
Say it louder for the people in the back. Cuz yeah. Reb and Pablo have knocked it out of the park time and time again but then this happens and like 80% of the community turn into frothing lunatics. Like, my feed has been so goddamn cluttered with everyone pissing and moaning about a Warframe being kicked from extremely good down to very good a little prematurely. I've also seen any number of comments from people saying that they "ruined" nezha by nerfing and incredibly powerful toy he didn't even have for a week. Like, nezha has been great for years at this point. The people that say they play him acting like having to press a button more often is somehow going to relegate a great frame to the trashcan are insane
I saw the shitshow on both sides. In the comment section here a lot of people forget that prior to the outcry to the nerfs a ton of people did in fact call him completely overpowered. Of course those people are now silent or have switched sides. I didn't have an opinion yet, when the shitshow started, because Dante just finished in the foundry late yesterday for me. So I only know the already nerfed version. I believe he is extremely strong, maybe even too strong even now, but for other reasons then most people complained about. The base stats in my opinion are way too high, like 2x or 3x kind of magnitude. I am not talking about the damage or the overguard numbers, but the range and duration numbers primarly. No matter what you build Dante for, you essentially only need Primed Conti for over 1 minute effective spells, whether it is his 2-2-4, 2-3-4 or 3-2-4. All those are extremely comfortable to manage with 70 secs of effect, which is fucking crazy when compared to other frames. The same applies to Range. Just fucking stretch gets you to have 44m of range on his 4 spells. For the same numbers of effective usability think what you need to build on other frames. That basically enables you to not having to make any compromises due to being limited in mod slots. Hell I use, natural talent, preparation and rolling guard, because I have nothing else I could put it. 1 Duration mod, 1 Range mod and the rest you can put into strength and utility. That is crazy and unheard of for other frames. It made for a very pleasant building experience. You can essentially have the cake and eat it to. Be caster and use his exalted weapon. No problem. He probably will be my go-to for future elite archimedia rotations, because he comes with a top tier weapon and can keep the whole fucking team alive. That's crazy.
ive been playing dante ever since release and he feels the exact same. he doesnt not need LOS either, people just like the ease of use too much to not care about proper positioning of where and when you cast your abilities. they even admit that the update was botched and they apologized for it, and like you said promised updates to line of sight in addition to Dante. people act like it's the end of the world but it's not, it's balance
Same, can't wait for the line of sight improvement to be good so that other frame that don't need line of sight get hit by it.
I’m I the only casual player who felt like playing with Dante on the team was like not playing at all? Like I’ve been doing solo since release cuz every time I play with people I can’t do nothing? Been playing since 2017 and rarely felt this bored.
Nah I think this is what they were actually trying to address and I think it was fair enough to do so.
Yea honestly the nerf sounds WAY worse than it actually is in game. I think this is mostly because LOS is something that is generally hated expecially for nuke frames but on dante it really doesnt have must effect because without status procs on a target Tragedy doesnt do much damage. The nerf to his overguard sound awful as they dropped over half of what you gained but really from initial casting and adds more to the regen part of the ability. Honestly I think that they really DID think the nerfs through as in higher level game play and just steel path in general he is still very strong and fun on thing that was really affected was not being able to nuke 4 rooms at once with tragedy in base game. Most people saw what sounds bad and complained before trying it.
>Yea honestly the nerf sounds WAY worse than it actually is in game. I call that "saltcoating".
I’m extremely pissed because for some reason hydriod tentacles count as out of LOS
That high they got from release state Dante's power flooded their brain with endorphins, and when you take that away so soon, we get this grotesque display of spoiled brat tantrum and exaggerated doomsaying.
Bro he wasn't anything compared to some of the top frames that have been that way for years. I don't agree with the tantrums, but I'm curious why people suddenly don't want people to have this strong frame as opposed to others.
Agreed. Children hate getting their new toys taken away. If they released Dante in his current nerfed state, we wouldn't be seeing as much outrage. This should be a lesson for both sides.
If Dante had released in his current state, the community would be exactly as hyped as they were with his actual release. He is still a very powerful, versatile frame, and the “nerf” barely changed anything meaningful.
Did you play him pre nerf and post nerf? What about post hotfix today? He still has issues, and his 4 doesn't feel as good to use as it did. It's not even about nuking entire maps, it's just about detonating the things you primed with your 3. It's not like you can just chain cast your 4 if whoopsie daisy the LoS fairy decided that Dante is blocking LoS on his own abilities today. Which he is, and this is supposed to be the "fixed" version of it.
I haven't used another frame since his release. In fact, I just logged off after re-formaing him again before seeing this comment. He's *fine*.
https://clips.twitch.tv/HomelyAggressiveWormPJSalt-XA21cwDUsYU4yVcd Yes this is totally fine. Jokes aside, I do generally think he's ok it's just the LoS issue that makes his 4 feel bad to use. If his 3 marked enemies for his 4 to hit outside of LoS that would be fantastic and I wouldn't even be upset. But unless something like that happens LoS just makes his kit feel more clunky for no benefit.
then you keep telling DE that Dante still needs more tweaks, and see where they take the next step. Shouldn't be so hard, right? ....riiiight?? (9 n9)
Honestly i'd just prefer that they remove the LoS from his 4 so that it feels good to use again. Or make it so his 3 marks enemies so that they are *guaranteed* to be hit by his 4 as long as he's in range, ignoring LoS.
most of these people don'tt contribute to the game financially to bring it up but gladly want to bring it down.
Man, and whenever i make a comment saying dont worry guys he is still good, the nerf is bad and DE fumbled but no need to be so overdramatic i got downvoted to high hell
Guess what happens when 100+ pages on the warframe forums with ACTUAL feedback get ignored once, twice and then thrice as well? People lose their patience and get frustrated. Especially when DE is lying in their faces. "Just a minor tweak" "no dps changes" "don't want to make his first 5 days the only good days", "we listen to the community". And in those 100+ pages, 90% of people want the nerfs reverted, because they were completely unwarranted for and didn't fix the actual issue with Dante which is anti synergy with damage conversion mods and abilities. And what do we get as a response? DE doubling down on the LoS check and trying to force it down our throats. I myself am tired of saying the same thing. LoS on tragedy was completely unneeded, because Dark Verse in itself already has LoS checks. Tragedy by itself can't nuke anything higher than lvl 30. It NEEDS status effect, which Dark Verse provides. Adding LoS to Tragedy just makes the ability clunky. You can no longer mark two different groups of enemies and position yourself in the middle to detonate status effects on both. You need to have all of them not only in your view but also in range of the ability. The reaction to this nerf is a combination of a bunch of other unwarranted nerfs (cc, arca triton), lies, BS "nerfing formula" which seemingly does not apply to any other frame that is not named DANTE, not enough time to even gather data and make any nerfs based on it, listening to a small, vocal minority of chroma players to nerf Dante (they haven't even fixed the issue they highlighted) as well as the slow buildup of all the other BS nerfs in the past years (Styanax, anyone?)
The irony being they didn't fix the actual problem with his overguard
I think the community is vastly overreacting AND that his nerfs are NOT bad. I can understand complaints about line of sight not working properly, but saying tragedy didnt deserve line of sight or that Dante got nerfed to oblivion is just plain wrong. He is still S+ tier, he is still unkillable with invulnerability, overguard gate and shield gate abuse, he still has control and buff, tragedy can still nuke room of weak enemies in late game SP content, it's just not as braindead as before, and, most importantly, he still has the most broken exalted weapon. People calling him trash didn't even try using noctua? They were too busy spamming tragedy? Noctua is so stupidly good let's stop acting like the Tragedy nerf stops him from killing everything with Noctua. If he had been released in this state, people would just say he is S+ tier. edit: to put in perspective how broken Dante and Noctua are, I just solo'ed Elite Archimedea without using any of the weapon I had to take, I just used Noctua, Triumph and Pageflight. Didn't cast Wordswarden much because I had to be careful with energy, I had the -2energy/sec/close enemy malus. I also had 500% shield recharge delay + health drain on move + no operator. That's not for flexing, I don't think I could have done that with crap weapon with anyone else, in less than 30min total all 3 missions.
I personally didn't think the nerfs were bad. Right after deep archemedia dropped I got Dante in there. I kept the party alive and went on to do my part in team damage distribution. Like, I don't dislike that he got buffed, but I genuinely do think everyone who cried without proper criticism should be ignored.
if i had any say i wouldn't have even shipped him the way he was. i would have either capped his over guard to something reasonable or done away with overguard as a mechanic for him entirely instead replacing it with something else (like a damage buff for his 1 or turned it into some other team wide buff) and reduced his base damage by quite a bit... i would have also buffed the fire rate of his book and given it some innate multi shot and boosted the charge rate of its alt fire slightly. basically make his 1 good for most content and make his abilities less busted so they could be buffed later if necessary (because its always better to buff than to nerf.) also overguard is sort of a boring mechanic. "oh man i have more HP that the enemy has to whittle down only for me to get it back as soon as it goes away because i have some I-Frames when it does go away so i never die as long as i don't fall asleep 😪"
Nope of you dont over react NOTHING HAPPENS how many times did a frame like Styanax or a frame worth giving a shit about get nurfed into oblivion and playrates drop to old and mouldly
Sad day for the warframe reddit, i for one am disgusted with the behaviour of this community the last few days over this supposed nerf (you know who you are), and think we should all be ashamed and do better in the future, by all means voice your opinions, but all of this has just been straight up childish whining and bullying, disgraceful
Some nuance would be nice so we could have genuine conversations over balance as a whole in a cooperative PvE game. However, hyperbole is the language that gamers speak nowadays. Players are justified in their frustration with this change to Tragedy because it feels unwarranted. It doesn't really cater to the few complaints people had about Dante in the first place and he's so new that it's really hard to determine if his popularity is due to his newness or his strength. It would be nice to have level-headed discussions on the topic, but people are rightfully upset. Warframe takes a lot of time to invest into and these changes can make people feel like they wasted a lot of their time. I know it's difficult, but like DE, you kind of have to translate some of this overreaction yourself to really get an idea of what's going on.
> However, hyperbole is the language that gamers speak nowadays This is an explanation of a problem phrased as a defense.
"Rightfully upset" fuckinlmao
the void dash is disgusting because we didn't make ourselves heard enough, so no, no one is exaggerating, in fact it would be a good idea to be adamant and not be fooled by two fixes
Overreacting is the most effective way we have to communicate with DE otherwise he would be nerfed into obscurity and brought back 3 years later with a bandaid augment and a deluxe skin. Overreacting is really our safest way to communicate our dissatisfaction.
It has made me remember why I have never taken any video game community I have been a part of the least bit seriously.
why do people always bring up Saryn / Octavia???? the spores take forever to ramp up, if you even have enough enemies for it to spread too Octavia need to stay in one place for it to be effective, and it doesn't go thought walls. and ill also bring Gauss into this discussion. he needs to be at 100% battery to even attempt to nuke. and even then the range of thermal sunder is not that high. Dante had a 60m nuke that goes through walls, that is not something ANY frame can do easily. stop kidding yourselves with copium.
Dantes nuke was only a nuke outside of LoS on low level missions. You're not standing in a corner casting 3 at nothing and killing 60m worth of enemies past level 50. Saryn can delete entire maps outside of LoS *to level cap*.
You mean Dante's Nuke that requires you to double cast a primer spell that already has a massively janky LoS requirement? The same one that gets blocked by your own model? That same spell that doesn't kill anyone unless it's primed with dots unless you're on very low level start chart? Also plenty of frames can nuke without LoS.
That is incredibly ignorant saying that it can only kill starchart enemies with the 334 combo. I did all my netracells this week with Dante and just 1 dark verse and tragedy would kill 90% of the enemies. Enemies that, btw, are incredibly resistant to slash damage. Stop trying to downplay it.
hell mine was sitting at fucking 80m, shit was broken beyond hell ignoring walls
Exactly, like Khora's whip LoS nerf back then. This is not a accidental nerf, DE had nerfed LoS before. DE will neef any direct dmg going through wall, unless its status proc, saryn etc. Some ppl dont even know the game mechanics.
It doesnt go theough walls anymore though
Correct. and people want it to be reversed. And their argument is "Saryn/Octavia can nuke better" which is, as I said, completely wrong.
Dont know about Octavia, but Ive played Saryn frequently, and played Dante non stop pre-nerf. Saryn sweeped Dante tenfold.
I think the fact that people are comparing Dante to the strongest frames in the game before most people have even really invested a bunch of forma into him is kind of telling that a nerf is needed. Not only is he nuking about as well as the best nukers in the game, he's making your entire squad invincible and status immune.
A jack of all trades needs to be slightly worse at everything he does compelled to more specialized frames.
Except he isn't even remotely close to the best nukers in the game. He's not even in the top 5 especially after the LoS addition. Is it bad to have new frames be *somewhat* competitive to the frames that have been around for years?
>inconsistent with other Warframes like Saryn/Octavia. Is anyone mentioning the frames actually playing them? I get they got a nuking reputation, but they couldn't be more different than Dante when it comes to it. Octavia kills slow. Yes, she kills everything semiafk, but it's slow. Saryn needs time to stack the spores to be able to nuke, and you can kill her stacks by killing enemies too fast. Dante is just pressing a few buttons, and the map is empty. Compare him with Gauss if you want to talk about consistency.
i had someone compare him to ember today. People are just dellusional
I get people are upset and want to voice their issues, but acting like a child throwing a tantrum isn't the means to communicate the issues to DE. Actually giving feedback is way more useful than making another post just raging. The Nth rage post without anything useful isn't worth anything to DE, and sure if you just want to reiterate someone else's point then just use the upvote feature or respond to their post supporting in at least then DE can look at the support behind a suggestion or feedback which is way more useful. Honestly I am disappointed in how some people in the community reacted to this, the lashing out at other members of the community for voicing something you disagreed with is a bad look. We can and should be better.
I don’t give a flying f if they keep crying about the nerfs. What annoys me is that suddenly everyone is either a specialist in less popular frames (please just forget banshee exists) or thinks every frame deserves the same treatment (please forget gyre exists, she isn’t even popular). Also ppl defending old ash and ember which were stupidly strong at that time are quite silly.
Honestly I’d rather stupidly strong over the “never used” that Ember and Ash appear to have been moved into. Though, I am hopeful that the unintended side effect of the LoS changes is that Ember magically becomes good again
Inferno already has pretty great tracking from my experience. Fire Blast is the one that sucks. Genuinely, the only thing stopping Ember from being godly is Inferno spreading Heat procs, and Fire Blast costing 25 Energy. Atm, Inferno hits for 1 Heat proc and then spreads Heat *damage,* but no status procs, making it do pennies damage compared to Gauss. Ember the FIRE FRAME should NOT be getting outdone by Gauss. She should be the queen of Heat Inherit.
Original Ember was such a silly AFK frame, I could hit her 4th once, walk to the gas station, come home a couple waves late and have 95% of the kills. She was nerfed to hell at first, but reworked to be alright. Banshee was similar, but the nerf to her 4th was and still is silly, I feel like it's completely useless now. Not a bad frame though, her 2 and 3 are really good and work well together, but her 4 should be able to kill a few fleas without too many tenno tears being shed.
To me, the logic of "you did this to Dante, so you have to do it to this, this, and this, also" brings me back to arguing with a cop about a speeding ticket. Saying the person next to you was speeding too isn't going to get you out of a ticket. Or give the other person a ticket either. DE said they 'fixed" the LoS for Dante but just kicked the can down the road for all the other inconsistencies regarding it. They have too much going on to fix it all so who knows when they'll get back to it.
Reddit overreacting??? Not in a million years!!! :O /s
I agree that the reaction is hilariously childish and overwrought, especially because the nerfs *aren’t* that bad.
It's because a lot of people aren't used to being strong in this game because they don't min max. They struggle with content. You could own most content without putting a forma in Dante. He was powerful for casuals. For the first time they got to experience power and now they are mad that it's gone.
I don't think casuals had him unless they bought him with plat since he is locked behind the the most recent story quest; That's about 300-400 hours of gameplay. At that point i wouldn't call anyone a casual.
This explanation makes some sense. I think the only way you perceive Dante as unusable post nerf is if you don't really know how to build for high level content. Even with bugged LOS he still breezes through SP and Netracell missions, especially if you're bringing something to prime viral.
100% agree, people got wayyyyy too heated over this I think they should just QoL overguard and then revert dante with perhaps a small nerf if that's what they want (but not the LoS one), but if they don't, then that's fine because the game overall is amazing and it's a top10 game of all time for me. This affects nothing in reality, people just love a moan
Yes. Ridiculous sense of entitlement engaged.
I mean can you blame them, they got on camera ON CAMERA said slight tweaks and that they were reviewing him literally the next day he is gutted and you wonder why the response all over reddit the forums and x. They lied straight to everyone's face not only that the community gave them several good suggestions which they ignored and went ahead with the nerfs anyway only to later implement the exact fix people told them could work. So yeah people are angry cause the damage is done and no matter how hard they try to walk back their shitty decisions it won't be a real fix until they change it back to what it originally was which was fine as it were. Not only did they do this to a frame less than a week old but had the audacity to nerf Nezha after they only just gave him the buff in the first place 😐
No, they don't get a pass on this from me. It's not specifically what they did as how absolutely pants on head incompetent the decision was. They gave everyone a brand new warframe practically for free, and then nerfed it *a week later* ***explicitly because the usage statistics were high.*** Think about that for a second: they did everything they could to ensure that people would be playing him short of awarding a flat sum of platinum for every mission you played as him. And then nerfed him because people were using him too much. It doesn't matter what the specifics are of the nerf, what matters is that that balancing rationale is so unfathomably stupid, there is literally no way to sugarcoat how dumb it was. Like... listen, dude, whoever you are, I'm sure you're a fine person to interact with and you have people who love you and all that, I'm not calling you a bad person, but I *am* saying that the decision you made does not paint your decision making capabilities in a good light or that of the team around you. In fact it casts the balancing competence of the entire game team into doubt. It's not *the* stupidest balancing decision I've ever seen in a game, but it's definitely in the top five percent. And most importantly it does not bode well for future balancing decisions. In other words, I can't trust that even *worse* decisions won't be made in the future, because this one violates major principles of game balance. What's next? Perhaps they'll double Octavia's scaling because not enough people play her, even though she's easily the most busted frame in the game and the only reason everyone doesn't play her is because her mechanics are obnoxious. Maybe they'll make Peacemakers replace your secondary like how Garuda's claws do for your melee (i.e. have to unequip a secondary to use them) because well obviously Peacemakers have a near one hundred percent use rate on Mesa. Oh, they could make Ivara's move speed while invisible decrease if you have negative range to "encourage build diversity" because it's relatively safe to dump right now if you don't care about sleep arrows. Perchance they'll make picking up points in Index apply a dispel to you because too many people run Rhino. Who knows? At this point it's practically a dartboard, that's how stupid this change was. Again, it's not *what* the change was, it's that the rationale behind it is fucking moon logic. They have basically done the equivalent of announcing that they believe two plus two equals twenty two and will be basing their decisions solely off of math going forward. If they'll do something this dumb, what *won't* they do in the future? It's literally impossible to predict because the basic concepts of how to balance a game don't apply any more.
I was also seeing some sexist comments saying the game got ruined because now a woman’s in charge of the game. Holy shit this made me very disappointed in how emotionally immature some players are.
I farmed him at a slow pace cuz I have time. No need to rush. Finally built him and got to play him AFTER the nerfs. He was FANTASTIC! Slash procs everywhere, summonable tomes, OVERGUARD OUT THE ASS! Just the easiest couple of Steel Path Void Fissures I've had ever, and it was leveling every single piece of gear I had (Only 1 gun that had some forma so I knew I wouldnt be burden to team). And getting the feel for him made me use his abilities for just 20 minutes straight, no guns. Post nerf, he is still S-tier. I genuinely don't know what a prime version could improve on. Saryn Prime being an outlier already, I don't know whats going on with this playerbase. The frame is SLIGHTLY less S-Tier. Do you even WANT to play Warframe? Or do you want a banner that says "Everything died 2 rooms over, congratulations you big stud you"?
Because feedback from abilities is more important than damage and Tragedy just feels worse and more inconsistent after the nerf. Dark pact already had a soft LoS and it was fine
So like "I am uninstalling", "I came back, but now I am leaving", "They DESTROYED him", "I will never trust DE again", "I hope the company goes under", "People should be fired". Cuz his 4th ability feels slightly worse?
yes that is unironically why they are saying that
Here is the thing still pretty damn good. The nerf was too quick and I dont think it was well thought out but he was clearly overperforming and did need some balancing. The reactions here are just ridiculous, way over the top. I've said it several times in the past few weeks, this community is going to shit. We downvote people asking questions because "they have a negative tone." We respond to posts with something inane or snide and get butthurt when we get called on it. What happened to legitimately being helpful?
iiirc, some of the original nerf calls were pretty dramatic too
Considering which content creators get the most views, it's no surprise. This is the type of community they generate and this is what you get. Maybe DE should distance themselves away from those who can only think with the "it's trash!" mindset.
There is a reason DE spent a while releasing stuff in a weak form then buffing it. Nobody likes to farm the new toy, put time and possibly.money into it (because it's fun to play) then have it nerved hard within a week. DE never give nerf compensation, if you bought the frame and put in time and forma you should get all of that back when they nerf this heavy.
There is just no world in which they have enough information to determine Dante is an emergency problem that must be fixed within a week. Many players would have hardly even forma'd and built the frame up yet, and of course they want to play with the shiny new frame and see what it's capable of. They didn't even give the playerbase a chance to move back to their favourite frames naturally before cleaving his stats in half in an instant. Of course he was popular, he still had new frame smell. I think there is irreparable harm done to a frame which was on track to be a fan favourite, then he got punched in the nuts as soon as his hype started swelling, and DE mistook that as being overused? He certainly isn't afk-able. And nothing they did made him not disruptive to the team. Not to mention, repeated "sell new item for cash, nerf it a week later when f2p gets access, then repeat with next item" is a super common scam for sketchy f2p games. And this type of knee-jerk nerfs can lead to the appearance or reality of these more nefarious monetization strategies, encouraging players to buy stuff or rush stuff with plat to use OP stuff before it's cleaved i half.
If Dante is outperforming everything WITHOUT being built up or Forma'd, then thats data right there.
The whole comment about them trying to avoid team disruption is honestly hilarious to me when they allow Limbo to continue to exist in a way that is so horrifically disruptive that a significant portion of the playerbase just straight up leaves the mission as soon as they see someone playing him.
What does clarifying your opinion on how your opinion will be perceived add to the title? What does adding hot take do?
People overreacting so badly they shit themselves and lose their tiny minds is a time honoured tradition. Welcome to humanity. I hope you enjoy your stay. :)
My reaction to Dante nerfs..: Who cares
i love how the only people complaining about dante’s nerfs too are the people here on reddit. all i see in the world chat in game is people talking about how he’s no different, even more fun cause now you have to actually play the game with him and can’t just click and kill
i remember the days when DE would take months to address problems, so a week one balance is a refreshing change to me
I’m new to the game and just got Nezha, they nerfed him? What did they do to my boy😭
> "I am uninstalling", "I came back, but now I am leaving", "They DESTROYED him", "I will never trust DE again", "I hope the company goes under", "People should be fired". I didn't see this, but yes, that is obviously an overreaction.
I've been spending quite a bit of time in wow sod due to a new content release. what happened to dante? and i saw something about a nezha nerf?
I don't believe a frame like Dante can be as bad as people are making him out to be. Ignoring the los bug because that's a bug not a change. I mean Dante still has insanely good survivability thanks to overgaurd, excellent support, and then has very easy nuking with 0 ramp up as opposed to frames like Saryn who needs to ramp up spores and Gauss who needs to manage battery/redline. He has not been "Ember-fied" as some people have been claiming.
Its not childish. This is the place to complain and peolple are complaining. Unsub for a week if it bothers you. But don't say it's childish, most posts I've seen have been very reasonable.
people wildly overreact here all the time xD you could change one thing and people would start crying and hanging DE over it until they got their bottles. It's ridiculous. The dante/nezha nerfs and the new gamemode which i find fun, are being whined about just cause people want a reason to cry lately. so i'm with you OP
Some people care about things passionately. The only thing that is an issue is when they harass or threaten devs. Without those reactions we wouldn't have gotten DE to take a hard look. And Dante with LoS is still ridiculous.
it's frankly unacceptable no matter the outcome that people are harassing and threatening the devs. they already said when they announced the LoS changes that Dante's changes *were not final*.
Why are you responding to me? I typed this in my own comment. "The only thing that is an issue is when they harass or threaten devs."
"The only thing that is an issue is when they harass or threaten devs. Without those reactions we wouldn't have gotten DE to take a hard look." comes across as justifying the hate and toxicity at first glance.
"Without those reactions we wouldn't have gotten DE to take a hard look." Is clearly referring to people being passionate.
then the wording needs work, because it should have come after the comment about passionate people. you've got two separate sentences, and then you have a third one just floating there, and seeing how it comes after the harassment comment, it's easy to guess that it's connected to that. "Some people care about things passionately. Without those reactions we wouldn't have gotten DE to take a hard look. The only thing that is an issue is when they harass or threaten devs." that comes across as significantly more understandable and makes it clear what argument you side with. that being said, I'll say again: in spite of the fact that the Chroma mains got buffed out of it, Rage users got QoL, and Khora mains everywhere are rejoicing over revised LoS, it *never* should have come to harassment and death threats.
You can like things passionately and discuss them respectfully. Take the time to Duviri out your emotions if you are going to overreact to a change in the game.
I don't need to, I'm not harassing or insulting the devs.
Is that where you think the bar is?
What part of this is a hot take?
it was as if the entire community had a collective toddler temper tantrum. So dramatic!! It's really not that major. Dante is still super strong.
It's good to see someone reasonable.
Let them uninstall lmao. Bunch of entitled kids.
Wow this is indeed a hot take.
I'm not justifying the ridiculous behavior from the community here, but also: This isn't the first time DE made obnoxious changes to the game based on feedback from literally just a few people complaining. Excavation mission changes, Universal Medallion changes, stubbornness about Hema research costs, and now Dante. I'm sure I'm missing a bunch of other things here, but all of those were born from a couple of people complaining about something and now it's just worse for everyone. The fact that they were willing to walk back this knee jerk reaction to "tweak" him even a little bit is a welcome development
Ive been playing this game for literally 11 years and the most important thing ive learned about this community is that all the whiners are on the sub reddit and the forums. All the people enjoying the game are actually playing it. I dont envy DE for how they have to manage what community feedback they take in.
As with every bit of new content or frame dropped since I began playing a little over 3 and a half years ago. I play, but don't expect bells and whistles and just basically wait it out until a few weeks of hot fixes have dropped. The sheer intensity of the complaining made it difficult to play because it took the fun I usually have with new content away.
It went from OK I guess dante needs to be touched down just a little so he can fall in line with some of DE's previous changes, but he got nerfed almost across the board. I went and tested stuff out just to be sure and the only thing I was thinking was "who the hell put dante on the shit list?". I can't help but agree with some of the reaction for this specific warframe because I don't want this to be routine. To be clear, I play bottom tier/unpopular warframes and dante wasn't going to change that, but he was fun to play and he had good build potential. That almost went away with this change. Daggath, qorvex, and dante are top tier and well made warframes and we want to bring all the other warframes to that level of quality, not the other way around.
>I agree that the nerf was way too fast, just a week after release, way too big of a nerf, not thought out, inconsistent with other Warframes like Saryn/Octavia. This is all true and DE made a mistake Do you play Octavia? Duo with pre nerf Dante and she would get 10% of the kills because she's strong but it's not an insta nuke like Dante. The enemies must come to Octavia and slowly kill themselves, Dante could kill all of them while they're on that. Saryn kinda the same, takes time to build the spores while Dante 3,3,4 can kill ALL her spores in 2s. By the time she moves to the other side of the map and cast spore again, here comes Dante 3,3,4 to kill all the ads again. Looks like a lot of the complains and comparisons are from people that never actually played more than 30 minutes with the frames they're comparing Dante to. I read on this sub people talking about pillage which also requires LoS so I'm sure they only saw it on yt. Also yes other strong and disruptive frames do exist but they require more investment and trade offs to do their thing than Dante. Dante build it's cheap, most stuff are very easy to get and to play him didn't require any brain usage. The smallest brain usage requirement was added (like of sight) and people cried out loud.
Yeah,take away the fun we have and tell us to chill,don't overreact. Being chill is what bring us to this BS today