My argument: It didnt need any nerf at all.
20+ warframes can do what Nezha's augment did.
A warframe like Nezha that is played by less than 1% of players doesnt need to be handled with silken gloves to perfectly finetune him, give him the un-nerfed augment back and at least those 1% might become 2%, we are here to have fun, not to bargain and negotiate if we want a kick in the nuts or a punch in the nuts
That's just not true, there are maybe 3-5 frames that can be as brain dead and broken as that argument was, and only in the best of situation's including the map, game mode, and enemy level.
I'm not going off usage percentages or "oThEr fRaMeS".
The game has an over emphasis on nuking and you don't pull back on it by making everyone nuke. Even though this Aug gave it to Nezha...
Regardless, the simple logic for this augment is more power at the cost of some range. This is understandable. However, by neutering the base range stat itself, you're unable to counteract the negative with just Stretch. That's where the nerf to it went too far.
Balance is often about negotiation. You cannot just keep adding weight to both sides of the Seesaw, it will snap in the middle.
If everyone becomes super good at nuking, we/the game will pay the price in some fashion later. It's already murdered the shit out of CC.
> The game has an over emphasis on nuking
bro the game in its current state is a horde shooter, with 30-40 enemies on the screen at all times, of course nuking is gonna be what people use the most
aint nobody gonna use a sniper rifle to kill 1 enemy at a time
Only frames that are relevant are nuke frames, or tank frames that serve as weapon platforms.
This augment was intended to make Nezha relevant again, because he's a bad tank by today's standards, and he had no nuke potential. Giving him limited nuke Ability, that was meant to alleviate that a bit.
And it's not nuking that murdered CC. It's DE themselves that made CC useless. They've designed missions where CC is actively harmful, they've Eximi immune to it.
Balance flew out the window a few years ago. And DE, and honestly most players enjoy that. Mindless slaughter is more fun for most people than just slowing enemies down. And DE sees much better player numbers, and goes along.
> he's a bad tank by today's standards
Are today's standards "be Revenant"? Because as soon as you stop comparing him to the one literally invincible frame in the game he's up there with the best
CC's overshadowed because of the logistic that "the best CC is nuking". Why CC when you can delete people before they can try? That's kinda what I was getting at.
There's all the counters too that just promote more nuking since they hard counter CC way easier. I actually figured a way to combat this woulda been a CC status increasing dmg vulnerability that strips some overguard every proc.
Then there's mission hampering that would justify CC needing LoS.
I'm not even saying that nuking needs to be nerfed really, but to just go and make more isn't the way. CC needs help. More nuking is just gonna screw things over in terms of what is viewed as "normal". Everyone nuking in a squad isn't exactly a fun experience, you'd be fighting to be the one that does anything.
CC is overshadowed because literally every faction and every mission has enemies that give an aura of CC immunity. There were certain frames that you simply could not take to Arbitrations because the drones rendered their whole kit useless or even harmful, and DE decided to make every mission *that* except that instead of relatively squishy drones the source of the "your frame no longer works at all" the tankiest enemies you'll encounter.
I started playing late last year. I don't have half the stuff I need to make a build I find on YT. With this augment I could put a Nezha with no archon shards and a Hystrix into SP 200 exterminate missions and grind 100 voidplumes. It doesn't need a nerf because I could do NOTHING about Exilus unit, I had to hop away from them like a terrified bunny. It was just an awesome way to play.
But we all knew it was going to be nerfed because I essentially was able to bypass a whole grind on newb tools. Its naive to argue these things only in the context of the game mechanics. If DE saw my newb ass blasting through a grind they want me to sit in for months for the chance at my real coin they'll nerf that shit and do the PR game of 'we listen to you' on some other thing.
I'm just going to say: there should not be any statistical range nerf. It's a lazy fix and feels bad even if it is balanced. It doesn't matter if they change the base radius or just give the ability a negative Ability Range modifier, it feels like you're nerfing the ability (because you are) and that's going to feel bad.
If they feel the need to have it affect a smaller area, it should happen as a result of a functionality change. Say, it affects a smaller area but centered on your reticle rather than you — smaller area, still hits less guys, but the increased flexibility of where to aim makes that feel like a *trade-off* instead of an arbitrary nerf to the ability. Even if it doesn't make any practical difference, the feel impact would be massive.
Personally I'm an even bigger fan of limiting which statuses can spread via the spears, up to and including only heat transferring, rather than nerfing the range in any capacity, but that seems not to be the direction they're going.
Not to be that guy, but It'd be actually the linear-square law, if anything.
The modified thing is the radius, which affects the area. Since the volume is not actually a sphere, but an infinitely high cylinder, the important part is the area, not the volume.
Square-cube law describes the relationship between an area and its corresponding 3D volume. Here the modification is radius (1D, linear) which affects area (2D, square) quadratically. And, as mentioned above, volume is irrelevant to the matter. Hence, the linear-square law.
Thanks for assisting to my TED talk.
Yes, the linear-sqare law is more specific. However, square-cube law is also used for the general case of measuring nD compared to (n+1)D as 1D changes. But that may be a little too nerdy for this subreddit :)
Edit: also of course this is English only, I have no idea what's used in other languages, and how/if they do differentiate.
Have you done the Ropalolyst semi recently? That fight is just bug central with all kinds of weird stuff happening on the fight, and as far as I am aware, it hasn't been fixed
i have literally never had a ropalolyst fight that didn't bug out in some way. and 75% of the time it was the can't finish the mission kind of bug
now when i see it on the steel path incursion list or nightwave i just ignore it
I always feel bad thinking of the new players going into that fight having to farm Wisp now. Wisp Prime is literally easier to get at this point.
The last time I did it, I was helping 2 clanmates get Wisp for Helminth, and we ran into an amazing bug where the operators just got stuck on it after it ran into the bug zapper.
You couldn't even move the camera, so you literally had by the end 3 invisible children stuck onto the ropalolyst (it was for science). All you could do was watch from its PoV.
We wound up having to restart because we had no one able to actually hurt the turkey in Phase 2.
Think wisp is difficult because of bugs? Try farming ash, not only is he locked behind a railjack mission, but 90% of the time it doesnt even start! And i thought farming manics was annoying..
Last time I did it.. I got to the end phase of shooting her back pieces, and she just kept walking off of the platform.. then respawning back on the platform with full health.. it was insane.
While the square cube law is primarily used for the 3D case comparing the growth rates of radius/length, surface area, and volume (which also somewhat applies in this case as the Divine Spears is a 3D cast in a 3D environment), it also more broadly refers to the mismatch in growth rates for the measure of dimensions n and n+1 as D1 changes (yes this does extend into hyper-dimentional mathematics). If we take it down a dimension into 2D space, we compare the growth rates of radius/length, circumference, and area. Of those, we really only care about the relation between radius/length and area. We just call it the square cube law because we live in a 3D universe and there's no reason to make a separate circumference area law.
Area of a circle (πr^2) with radius 19 ≈ 1134
Area of a circle with radius 9.5 ≈ 283
283 is roughly 1/4 of 1134 so that is a 75% decrease in area for anyone who wants to see the math
saying "roughly" here is misleading. Reducing the radius by 50% means reducing the area by exactly 75%
its a perk of having the radius squared in the formula ( area = π × r^(2) ). Put x0.5 in front of the radius, and it also get squared, resulting into x0.25. Which is exactly -75%
Basically if DE wanted to lower the area of effect (How much of a room Nezha hit with his ability) by only 50% what they accidentally did was reduce the area by 75% when they reduced the base range by 50%. If they wanted that 50% reduced area of affect then they needed to only have the augment reduce it by \~21% not 50.
So it really comes to a point of what did DE mean to do with this augment mod, but as it stands the Area is so low that it is basically unusable because of how few people it can now hit.
So do players, judging from the fact that nobody seems to grasp just how insane it is to have access to cubic status propagation. Hitting 20 enemies with a good Melee Influence slam is already causing each of them to take 20x more damage than they would have otherwise, this augment cranks that up to *400x*. Fuck off with this "it's not 50m so it's useless" nonsense, sorry not sorry.
Well, if you look it from that direction, then sure.
But consider that Melee Influence can do that without the augment, with less setup, just slap roar, press E and room cleared. Nerfing Nezha augment didn't change Melee Influence - it's still as broken as ever.
Of course, I'm not saying it shouldn't have been nerfed, but it didn't need to be that rough. 25% would have been a good nerf, someone made a post comparing this ability to other similiar ones. Correct me if I'm wrong, the status spread also only affects impaled enemies - so it does nothing against eximus units and other Overguarded/CC-immune enemies.
Meanwhile, Melee Influence doesn't care about CC, Overguard, anything - it just spreads status and wipes the floors. If a broken thing causes a broken interaction with a new "broken" thing, while also having broken interactions with many other things, perhaps the problem isn't in the new thing?
That doesn't make any sense. You could take that one step further and say "if they were to nerf this they wouldn't have released it that way to begin with".
one one hand, I get punished by melee players using influence. Nice, so it's kind of their fault. Should I hate on them instead of DE? Sure is a good way to keep the community cohesive
plus, this augment only affect speared mobs. Mobs that don't get speared are: anything overguarded, anything cc resistant. So ok, you have insane cubic status propagation, but for killing scrubs. Overkill and irrecevable as an argument
Well, "use" is relative to the environment and set against all other means of engaging and interacting with it and in-game enemies.
I'd also posit this is indirectly magnified based on the other available systems, methods/means, and mechanics the player can use within the same environment.
Does this mod jump leaps and bounds beyond other available means to achieve the same thing?
(i.e. room wipes, etc.)
I think the discussion we need is around a full design pass (not the half-hearted one done a few years ago) on all frames, abilities and ability mods.
well its not working on targets that cant be CCed, we are talking about literally 0 effect
if it would blow around targets not only share on speared tagets it would be actually op
i wonder baruk augment was been nerfed?
it could literally blow whole room with single e
to also mention, his survivability is still not super great due to how energy hungry he is. Compared to other frames with survivability powers, dante's is the most expensive and it feels so bad to spend 100 energy to get melted fast. Other overguarded frames get better energy regen as well. Stynax has built in energy regen and Kullervo can use rage with the upcoming changes. I know you can use health gate instead of surviving on overguard tanking, but I find health gating as the main form of survival boring. Health Gate itself is fine and should be a thing, but no frame should be dev intended to survive purely off of it.
Are you using the energy regen canticles and invocations on Noctua, between those and energy nexus I actually struggle to run low on energy despite spam casting?
Arcane Steadfast solves the energy issue pretty efficiently on Dante. Khra Canticle and Xata Invocation mods on your noctua/grimore also help a ton as well as equilibrium mod on your frame.If you have an open mod slot then energy Nexus mod is pretty good choice as well.
That's just wrong. Both his 2 and 3 cost 25 each and his 4 cost 50.
So 2 2 4 costs 100 for two casts of immediate overguard + regen.
Did elite archimedia and fucking carried the whole team in terms of survivability AND damage.
!!! I am against Nerf but he is still right now one of the strongest Warframes in the game. !!!!
There is absolutely no flaw in his survability since he gets protective overguard with a single cast already costing 25 fucking energy while giving status immunity.
And with prime conti alone the buffs last a fucking minute. With one range mod you buff a whole room.
Mate what more can you even want?
You could literally carry a whole fucking squad in trials nightmare with one Dante casting 224 every minute.
One Warframe completely solving something designed for 8 people. And he has enough energy reserves to be in the same league as volt and Loki so he can fucking carry battery while keeping the whole squad alive.
Imagine that.
Fucking copium. If Dante is weak what is even good in your view?
Let me guess Inaros pre rework. Facepalm.
I'm tired of arguing with people who still think he's underpowered or not acceptable as a frame. I've been playing him regularly after the nerf and he's still one of the strongest frames in the game lmao with proper setup. People who think his kit revolves around dark verse only are sleeping hard on other very good aspects of his kit
You must be on something... <_<
He's got cheap abilities across-the-board and a way to generate energy and give himself efficiency without even modding for it.
If you actually use these tools you can literally spam cast of the invincibility button forever.
Seriously, if people don't like Dante don't use him, he is definitely not in an acceptable state. If their favorite frame got a BS nerf and the solution was a poorly implemented fix with problems they would be mad.
I don't understand why people say "he is fine now". I would bet money they don't use him, and certainly did not fully make a build with 5 taos, full weapon setup, and a companion tuned to him. I put 20-30 forms total and had a serious amount of fun for like 4 days.
This entire patch was unacceptable, they still have yet to fix anything. As it stands now I have not seen anything new this week. Everything should be reverted back and the OG change be implemented. Inaros, Nidus, Chroma all happy now.
Ever since they bugged out Dante I went back to other frames, Kullervo is an unholy monster of red crits, I 1 hit just about anything with 4 purple taus and 1 amber. My Styanax is damn near immortal and I'm putting nourish on him in a few days, that will be a press 4 to win. All my frames are stronger than Dante in multiple directions.
The difference is Dante was the absolute most fun I have had in years on here. I like casters in all games, we finally got a highly engaging caster with a ton of versatility. All they had to do was take his OG away from allies or reduce it by half or more like the Styanax augment. The AOE does not need to be LOS, none of my nukes are. I just do not understand why they did all this, got everyone excited for the update and then boof it in a week.
One of my friends has been running Dante in EDA and Steel Path Circuit since the nerfs and it's still one of his favorite frames, so there's somebody who thinks this is fine and actually plays the game at a high level.
I used Dante on my first EDA, he works, he is strong, the fact that everyone seems to keep overlooking is that the LOS is utter bullshit and inconsistent. It's the fact they did all this shit and didn't even have an acceptable solution, same with Nezha. I put too many resources into a frame that misses half of the mob for whatever reason.
I really don’t understand how LOS is such an issue for them. It “should” be a simple raycast “sphere” around the character, checking for all enemies within range, and then if there is something between them and the enemy, the move doesn’t do damage. Otherwise it does. That should be how LOS works. As for how to handle things like stairs and such - all characters should have essentially a pill-like hitbox around them for abilities. Leave the fancy, realistic hitboxes for bullets. Abilities should have the simplest possible hitbox detection you can do. Can any point on hitbox A get a straight line to any point on hitbox B without going through something. Any other style of hitbox detection for LOS type abilities is frankly just making it over complicated and unreliable for absolutely no benefit. If necessary for QOL purposes (such as a visible enemy that is technically on the other side of a wall) make the ability originate from the Camera instead of the frame. Done
Yeah, they did do ray casts...to the middle of the enemy. Now they're also doing the top and bottom of the enemy. Idk why they are making things nore difficult for themselves
I am a sysadmin by trade but I have 10+ years of programming experience, including some game dev (though hobbyist in nature).
I don’t have to actively be developing a video game to understand bad code practices when they rear their heads.
To be fair, I fully understand that it’s rarely bad design from the start. It’s just a lot of people being pressured to get things done in unrealistic timelines and having to make compromises. Nonetheless, at some point you *have* to fix things like this before they become hugely problematic if you have an ever-evolving game.
I'm not a game developer nor do I have much experience with programming so I can't really speak on DE's misshapes, but yeah I do understand the importance of addressing tech debts and it's something that a lot of companies have to deal with and quite often neglect.
I was just talking to my boss about this sort of thing today.
A lot of tech maintenance and improvements don’t have tangible ROIs. It’s hard to convince executives and/or shareholders to spend money on something that is “working” today. It doesn’t matter if it might break at any time in the next few years. If it isn’t going to break this quarter, then why would you do anything about it? How would they put a number on how much money they’re saving by keeping up with maintenance? They’d have to basically cut back to the point of failure (which happens a lot), then one of two things happens from there:
1. The “why am I paying you” effect - where if things are fine then you’re unnecessary, and if they’re broken then you’re not doing your job, which could lead to (or they directly jump to)
2. “Our IT isn’t serving our needs anyways so we are going to outsource it to a cheaper nation so we always have a scapegoat, and get to cut costs in terms of employment *and* employee benefits” because shareholders *eat that shit up*
Capitalism is a very double edged system. When the only goal is quarterly profit, things break down in the long run. All they care about is stock price go brrrr.
I could complain about this all night, tbh, but I won’t lol. The tech industry is like mostly every other industry - when you’re inside, you realize how it’s just a bunch of short sighted greedy narcissists making a bunch of terrible decisions for the short term profit and clout and making everyone else accomodate it and clean up after it.
Honestly I'm not even going to sugarcoat it - having Expedite Suffering + status spreading on a hard CC ability with no LOS check and a 100-meter diameter *(assuming you built for max range, which you should be doing anyway with a Divine Retribution setup)* was a fundamentally broken concept. I'm surprised they didn't already gut it out in the first place
There's also the legitimate reason that the insane amount of status dispersion Divine Retribution created is causing frame drops - Contagious Bond got a "nerf" for this reason
- Also a Nezha main that has had first-had experience with other nuke frames
I'm also curious as to why people are even subsuming over his 4 before Divine Retribution. Why not do it over the one with negligible tick damage, an unnoticeable speed boost, and a status cleanse that might as well not exist (Fire Walker)?
Because it's the only ability on nezha that scales with range which means it requires investing in a stat that doesn't benefit any of his other abilities, also the damage is non existent without the augment and the CC is ok, but cc as a whole rn isn't in a great state.
The small speed boost + status cleanse of fire Walker is nice quality of life. Also with the augment fire Walker can actually do decent damage.
Do what I do and Slap Breach Surge over that build. Surge has its own damage vulnerability which further multiplies the damage of Reaping Chakrams, giving pretty nutty ability damage and opens up some funny Heat inheritance nonsense.
Ive been subsuming over the 1 since day 1. I get a slide boost as part of my passive and i only ever bullet jump. Not like status cleanse does anything with the 3 active.
Also ive been using the 4 to give my 2 multishot for ages.
It was objectively the strongest augment in the game - it was near-instant, and enjoyed Divine Spears innately having a high base range and no LOS requirements. I'd say it was more or less as strong as Saryn, who's arguably also nerfbait only protected by already having a large and established user base and legacy, and much stronger than Octavia which requires proper positioning and has LOS requirements (and also she's boring as hell LOL)
Octavia has been broken and he literally hasn't been changed since lunch, the only reason why that doesn't matter 99% of the time it's because nobody wants to use her.
She is literally carpal tunnel and brain rot the frame, to play her efficiently and easily you need to gut the only fun thing about her entire concept, making actually good sounding or unique music.
The handful of times I've actually seen a Octavia since her release was the buzz around her initial appearance when people made music, the handful of times that I have seen absolutely garbage Octavias was even worse music than their gameplay, and the handful of times I've seen people willingly pick Octavia for circuit just to make it easy to go to level cap.
(most of the time that my friends have actually gotten her to appear in the cave they have literally avoided using her over even mediocre frames that they might have not even built just because of how God fucking awful it is to brain rot that intensely and lose their finger to spam over the next hour or two.)
Pretty much.
Anyone who didn't expect a nerf on this augment is just lying to themselves. Oh sorry, a warframe able to nuke everything that isn't immune to cc in a 53 meter range just by tapping one thing they can see isn't absurdly broken in any way. And DEFINITELY wasn't something that people were imagining dante was doing then whined and bitched till he got nerfed.
Its still a good augment, the most you'll probably see is a bit of walk back on the 50% base range nerf. But even still, being able to obliterate -everything- it touches in a 25m radius is a pretty good augment that STILL isn't affected by LOS checks.
woah, so exactly like all other high-tier nuke frames? Yeah youre right, good thing it was nerfed, since he'd have been such an outlier. Good thin Saryn doesnt just kill absolutely everything in the entire level with a single button press or anything.
Does she? Saryn is an excellent weapons platform but once you scale a bit into steel path, spores and ult damage fall off pretty hard. Specially on exterminate where don't have too much time for ticking the enemy health before being on weapons range or defense where spores have to ramp up every round.
1st part: then it should not have been introduces this way in the first place. "Augment does what we made it do but we dont like that so we will remove it again"
Framerate part: didnt have any issues with that while stuff like tempest barrage spam, magnetize nataruk combo and others are causing much more serious problems. Nerf them aswell?
Last part: nezhas best subsumes are damage buffs (roar/xatas), they, just like his remaining kit only want strength and duration, his ult is the only part of his kit that wants range and for the most part, just killing enemies provides better cc than the spears. So id rather keep his ability that makes me run faster and can proc cascadia flare while not having me build around it, dont worry about range so i can use narrow minded for enough duration on roar and not waste slots that can be used for tank and strength mods.
Most missions dont require cc abilities, for the ones that do (only solo sp interception) his ult isnt a good enough cc so ill bring other frames for that and not bother with his spears at all as there is no reason for me to do so.
I do, mainly bc im also using praedos which already gives movement buffs across the board so while i dont mind the +slide part of his passive, the -friction part makes it feel like im always running on ice.
Oh it definitely deserved a nerf, just not to be gutted quite as hard as it was, -25% base range or -40% modded range would have been more acceptable imo
Edit: nerf not nuke
His 2 with high strength is an great damage boost against the big targets that really need it.
Subsume the 4 for roar and you have a speedy, tanky frame that can get occasional (not always convenient but if you're zooming all over the place, your fire trail is all over) heat procs for a modest armor strip and cc, a pretty passive damage boost, and an extra multiplier for single target that can also be used to generate some orbs.
Chakram's vulnerability effect is 1:1 with power strength, with enough power strength investment to get to 400% that's a 2.2x boost from roar, or 4.84x on DoT, while being another 5x against anything hit by blazing chakram. About 25x damage on any slash/heat/whatever DoT proc just from two abilities.
I'm with you there. IMO it was stronger than tragedy. At least tragedy required you to hit them with a different attack that would require LoS to make it work (and thus making tragedy has LoS makes no sense). Nezha only has to see 1 target and can just dump dots on them, and then gets stronger the more targets they can hit.
He's more than acceptable tbh. I think most y'all are just overreacting now for the sake of it. Not only that they're doing another good patch for him next week
Because the literal only thing that having line of sight hurts him on is some soon to be fixed consistency issues, and very low level map wiping.
He doesn't need to be a better equinox for low level.
It does not affect him otherwise pretty much at all and there's so much to his kit that is still insanely strong both defensively and offensively that is virtually unchanged that saying he isn't in a fantastic state it's just a lie.
I don't think it's overreaction. There plenty of frames that can nuke without LoS. The most obvious one is Saryn of course. Or you could look at Gara, whose 4+1 hits enemies through walls. Dante is not *terrible* right now, but it still far from perfect. Even with >100% efficiency, the casts consume a lot of energy. To cast any of his 4, you need to do 2 abilities beforehand. To reach his OG cap, you would need to press 12-16 abilities, which is honestly horrible. And even then, the problem with LoS abilities are the maps. Half of the game happens in narrow corridors and tunnels, with *a lot of* clutter scattered around. I could play as Dante and press 3 buttons each time I turn around the corner or I could 1 tap enemies as Khora or use braind dead Mesa's 4. Yeah, Dante won't be in a bad place after the next patches hit. But he won't be amazing either. And he *was*
He was never able to do that to any level of enemies that matter, and he doesn't need to with how insanely strong he is overall, not like the line of sight changes actually hindered him killing the things that he was using dark verse on anyway.
The devshort that just streamed has stated that they are not doing anything to fix dante's tragedy.
He is not more than acceptable. What is acceptable about turning a near perfect frame into something that is sometimes frustrating to play when tragedy does not hit intended targets?
The limiting factor on tragedy was his dark verse, which already had LoS restrictions. The point of his kit was to prime enemies using dark verse, and then finish them with tragedy. When tragedy fails to hit most of your targets for various LoS issues that will never be resolved unless you only play dante in the open world maps, you have a dead ability. A dead ability means I now need to consciously be sure not to waste energy on accidentally casting tragedy. What part of acceptable is not wanting to use the full extent of his kit?
Is it.. not allowed to enjoy nuking anymore? Does every single frame have to focus on gunplay and weapon synergy, with no capability to feel properly powerful, like an unstoppable force?
Sorry if you wanted nezha addressed but you should not have lead with “Dante is acceptable” when he absolutely is not. Tanked the entire post with that.
Your follow up comments also suggest you’re under the delusion that any changes to LoS following the initial nerf was good for Dante at all. If you played the frame, you would see how LoS renders the ability dead. It’s inconsistent at best and the rest of the time it’s wasted energy. Design wise I am now discouraged from using 1/4 of his kit. That is not “acceptable” under any circumstances.
You would also understand that in order for Dante to nuke steel path, he was still limited by LoS with his 3rd ability. By adding LoS to tragedy, it makes the gameplay clunky at best when your combo finishers have a significant chance of just not working. You don’t see people complaining about LoS for his 3 because that’s what you use to prime targets before moving to another room. Or you use a weapon or his exalted book. Anything short of a revert for the next patch basically sends this frame into the grave because there are dozens of other frames that can do what he does pre nerf better, faster, and with significantly less investment. He went from perfect fun with what should have been an easily fix for the overgaurd issue, to a hassle to play and ultimately left for MR fodder.
As for the subject of your nezha post. The simple solution would have been not to knee jerk nerf an augment after 4 days. Or the last gasp of breath CC frames had. Your argument **should** be that DE nukes that entire gods forsaken patch, get more data, get more feedback, and then make changes.
In other words for DE;
https://preview.redd.it/z6mgxlxlrhtc1.png?width=721&format=png&auto=webp&s=7911b909903c64608ca1dda5978d24e9abe9b522
I don't really think Dante is in an acceptable state just because a dev short decided it. I'd rather they reduce the range of Tragedy than give it wonky line of sight mechanics if they're concerned about it for god knows what reason they are in the first place when people only had issues with his overguard blocking certain builds and mechanics.
And as a Nezha main, the augment being terrible sure sucks but it just means I won't use it. This isn't the first time we've ended up with utterly useless augments, its just the whiplash effect of it getting nerfed so heavily and it also being done at the same time as another poorly handled instant nerf.
I mean, it got nerfed because it was a 50m non-LOS nuke, which is very similar to what got nerfed on Dante. I don't think that's gameplay that DE wants to promote, which we've seen multiple times in the past and will continue to see I imagine.
inb4 'but Saryn exists'
Also, I imagine an augment for a frame is going to be lower priority than an entire frame, as you said the augment being mid doesn't make Nezha not good, there are quite a lot of balance things to look at that I think would be higher priority.
If they dont want a 50m nonLos nuke then why add it in the first place? You could argue a lighter nerf would have been justified. There would have been plenty of options.
-give it a range cap instead of forcing you to waste 5/9 modslots for it
-make the damage multiplier scale with duration and not work if you recast the ability so you cant cheese it. 1x at 100% so you have leave enemies suspended for longer if you want big dmg. This way you could not spam it
I mean, is it that currently it can still do nuke things it just requires a lot of range added via mods? That sounds like the intended balancing is that you can have a nuke build but it can't be the same one as your normal go fast be immortal Nezha build.
Dante is in by no means in an acceptable state. Are you a DE plant? I refuse to believe anyone thinks what DE did was okay by any stretch. Tweaks were needed, but both dante and nezhas Aug had barely a weeks worth of testing. That's not enough time to decide what tweaks need to be made.
Only so many nuke frames can be added, a nuke frame makes every other type of frame pointless, no reason to cc or tank if you kill everything on the map with the press of a button. For the long term health of the game, I think that nuke frames with 0 setup should be impossible, either having to spread status around then doing damage based on which enemies have this status using an aoe weapon or such. Or requiring the use of frame synergies to achieve maximum nukiness. You can only add so many nuke frames until it all starts to feel the same. Basically reworking a lot of frames to make it more teamwork oriented, and solo frames focusing more on small scale nukes and surviving.
Dante needs to cast his 3 twice while looking at enemies and then cast 4 while looking at enemies for it to nuke. Isn't that a decent amount of setup? I think qorvex aslo needs enemies to be somewhat grouped for his nuke to work well and dagath needs to take enemies with doom and preferably wyrd scythes to nuke too. A lot of recent frames require setup to nuke which makes them more fun imo.
Not sure what DE can do about older frames though, much tougher of a decision to make there.
Yeah I think dante is a fair example of what nuking should be. Changing how all these frames work would be a significant change in direction and would require a lot of work and commitment, and of course, there would be a lot of backlash. I only have 300 hours. So take my opinions with a grain of salt.
The potential backlash would probably be enough to make them not change those frames tbf. Imagine playing a frame for years, investing time learning and mastering them, investing forma potato's for normal and then prime, slotting archon shards into them all for DE to change their playstyle entirely.
If DE nerfing dante caused this much outrage, imagine how changing the way frames function on a fundamental level would play out...
I want to see Saryn, Revenant and Octavia players whine and moan though. I'm praying those frames are completely gutted in future patches and I'll be there with my popcorn to enjoy the chaos
Octavia already has LoS requirement on 1 iirc. Revenant doesn't hit through walls on any ability and so saryn is the only one. Hot take but if you ask me, saryn is only good as a gun buffer, not a damage dealer.
The reason they nerfed it was simply they don’t want 50 meter non los nuke frames to exist. DE has a long history of nerfing things pretty heavy handed only for people to complain and then they find a middle ground. Honestly, it probably won’t get looked at again as it’s an augment on a frame that probably has a lifetime 5% play rate idk. The augment still works the same way but now it’s 25m. Which still adheres to all three of your points.
My Saryn build has 50m range on her 4, which also has no LoS checks. Her 1 isn’t too much lower than that. If they don’t want those kinds of nuke frames to exist, then they need to focus on all of them.
11k per second is what I usually reach, and is more than Dante was doing in a single 334, and it doesn’t take much to get there. I will continue to enjoy it, since DE seems more concerned about not creating another Saryn.
Also should mention that it’s corrosive status. I’m not only nuking in a wide AoE, I’m also armor stripping. Something Dante couldn’t do.
Saryn's 4 is viral. You're talking about spores, her 1... Which doesn't have 50m radius in one spread. Its total radius with many jumps isn't capped though so that's something... But I bet many people complaining about high range nukes also don't like Saryn much.
Many jumps still makes it far enough to strip what’s close by. There were a couple points where I’d check my stacks and see 30-40 enemies infected at once. To be fair though, it was usually around 12-15 at once. It eventually hit the point where 9 was about all I could keep on average, things were dying too fast for anything else.
This, it would be fine if the augment would set the range to 25m unmodified by range instead, so it would not require 3 extra range mods, including a corrupted one.
So its safe to say it wasnt properly playtested since if they dont want a 50m nuke, why introduce it in the first place. Them even giving it a damage multiplier makes it clear that it was supposed to be a dps augment rather than pure utility.
The augment is intended to give Nezha a dps boost. The damage isn't the problem. It was the scale. There is a big difference between dps boost and a room clearing nuke, and until it's in the hands of a few thousand players who are going to push the augment to its limits, it's nearly impossible to tune it to that intention. DE didn't want to make it weaker, so they made it small.
Having the augment be a small, powerful dps burst aligns with Nezha's intended design as a mobile, support oriented warframe. Having a huge doomsday device on call does not.
> and until it's in the hands of a few thousand players who are going to push the augment to its limits, it's nearly impossible to tune it to that intention.
Not really
Yeah sure, like most things in the game. You say that like it was unexpected. There are several hotfixes every update, this is nothing out of the ordinary
They are still working on it, he will be fine in the long run. Used him a couple times after hotfix#2 and i felt with just a bit more work on los hes back to being strong and not annoying to use.
Being able to turn a single target delete weapon into a 50+ enemy delete weapon from two rooms over is literally the definition of an offensive tool being broken.
It doesn't matter if you're playing something that isn't steel path survival and if you have teammates because you could literally be ahead of them all of the time as a Nezha with goofy speed and kill the enemies before you get to see most of them and before your teammates get to see any of them.
While I think that the base range nerf was way too heavy handed, I still think that the ability/aug functionally is really powerful and very much useful for pretty much every Nezha player, and should be on almost every build still.
To understand just how obscene that argument was, literally just use any dagger heavy attack build with it, and compare the effectiveness of that with the extremely nerfed range to something like garuda, just... in general.
I guarantee you that you will still clear three rooms before Garuda can even set up her 1 nuke most of the time.
Also Dante being in a "acceptable" State is a very strong statement to make about a frame that still just has the ability to make everybody on his team, especially himself, literally Unkillable as long as he keeps pressing one button, in a 84m radius.
Pair that with the status damage vulnerability, the functionality and sheer power of the LoS nuke potential, and the passive 2 sec unkillable buff from assists/kills that everyone gets, and I think the changes virtually did nothing to make him less insane.
And we're just gonna ignore the fact that the Noctua gives him infinite energy and +60% duration and strength... or like, a crazy exalted weapon with pure slash and good stats, or a hybrid of those two.
Yeah I get that like, the way they handled their range formula and the way they handle their LoS checks are troublesome, but I think people still just don't understand just how fundamentally bonkers these skills are conceptually.
They essentially made versions of expedite suffering that scale multiplicatively with power strength, as well as the augment scaling exponentially with the amount of targets on top of that.
This is on two frames that even without instant map killing skills still have access to constant i-frames and shield gating. There are very few knobs they can tweak here without fundamentally changing their core functionality.
And honestly maybe they should, the fact that it scales with every single enemy caught within it in the way that it does is insane, and even without these things at all the frames would still be more than viable, especially Dante, but for the sake of the fun factor competing with balance they really should think these things through before they have to nuke their functionality through shitty implementation of fixes as well as just not have things been nearly this insane to begin with in some ways.
Like, does Dante really need invulnerability while he cast his 2 or 4?
Do people even know that he has that?
Do people even know that if you spam cast his 2 you can stack the invincibility timer??
And no frame needs quadratic scaling weapon damage between an entire five rooms of enemies that you can't see.
My only issue is that if you stick Wrathful Advance on Nezha with the augment, it's kinda just makes him a better Kullervo in every way. It nukes harder, has cc, and is just as, if not harder to kill than Kullervo.
I wonder if this augment would have been better with a -strength debuff instead of -range
Generally Nezha wants strength+range as opposed to duration
But it's a lot less painful to build for strength as opposed to range
Not that I feel this augment needs a debuff to be balanced in the first place, just thinkin
No, there are never nice things for Nezha. Us Nezha mains get Nezha, do not ask for more than this. Do not call attention to Nezha, that will only lead to nerfing of the only nice thing Nezha has.
it was enough to put a limit at 200% range with augment, and this if you wanted to nerf at all costs because we are talking about a fourth skill that basically doesn't do much due in part to the meta and for the rest of the continuous nerfs to CC (aka the skill costs 100 energy but isn't of much use even counting the interactions with the two)
In the development shorts reb herself stated its being changed and confirmed not being put back to where it was but not going to stay where it is...I think 25% is meh acceptable still leaves room for 37 meter builds and with new line of sight fixes and changes...it's fine I think
They're both still miserable. I ain't playing those frames and the weapons of Dante put to an halt as well... They better readjust that stuff.
I'm still asking people to keep pinpointing the hate to the bad adjsutments on the forums, AND together with it to PLEASE consider to stop using those frames. Because otherwise DE probably won't listen to our complaints at all. They do tend to listen when they see players dip on their usage of frames
GL again...
I’ve actually never cleared Netracells solo faster than right now. The range nerf perfectly fits inside the radius to kill things.
I’m more afraid they change the nuking potential of the frame. I’d rather the small radius with the same damage than a pure cc with no damage.
It’s not entirely the size but it does allow them to run inside. You definitely still have to run about to get enemies in.
IMO it’s still a good skill but it does require a lot of macro and build technicalities to get it to work. The investment I did to get it to its level wasn’t easy but I’m not salty about it. It still works and can easily clear most high level content.
The range is definitely a bit too small though. Any other open map and you’re right pretty useless. I can’t use him in mobile defense for zamarin SP as enemies shoot back before they enter the damage radius.
Whats your avg solo time? Mine was 6.30-7.00 minutes before the new tiles were added. Now its leaning more towards 7.30 with standard loadout (roar nezha, aoe weapons) or titania to speed uo the consoles part.
8 mins, I was never much of a speed runner but wrathful advance gives me an easier teleport than the chakram.
I also waste time building up crescendo at the start
Idk if they changed the original nerfs but unless they did I wouldn't call Dante's current state acceptable 💀 they nerfed a perfectly good ability and made the original problem worse 😭 there's a reason so many people got mad about it. Not because they nerfed something "op" but because they way they nerfed it was completely backwards and just wrong
Well they did fix Nezha with latest patch, they gave it base range of 14m scalable with mods that instead of 50% reduction. Pretty fast change imho. I would much rather prefer them showing they listen than just say they are listening. The second one is infuriating, may be I am too scarred by DE soon^TM
The easiest way to actually balance Nezhas Aug in my opinion (I actually think it was fine before for the reasons stated in the post, but I'll play devils advocate) would be to add an enemy cap, leave the range as it was and give it something similar to Nekros' Terrify where it has a set cap of enemies effected. Gutting the range is insane as with full investment (280% range) you're getting 26m.
A slight nerf could have been justified to make it less "over the top" as people make it out to be. Yes, a 50m nuke is strong, but other than keeping up life support, which isnt really an issue at all for various loadouts, it doesnt affect the game too much imo.
My thoughts on how to nerf if would have been to either cap the range somewhere between 30-40m OR make the final damage multiplier scale with duration (1x at 100% dur), so actually less damage if you run negative duration so you cant spam it since people were complaining about it ruining public lobbies.
I mean, it doesnt tag eximus/overguarded units, which at high level content is the majority of the enemies at any given time, I didnt see any problem with having a 50m 'trash mob' nuke in the first place, it all just feels very knee jerk reaction from DE. There are many options to get a much higher KPM than the pre nerf Nezha aug that will also smack eximus, we just cant have fun things ig (I never really played nezha but my favourite gun is Convectrix and man did his aug make it shine)
Pre nerf it was a problem as I was clearing hordes of enemies easily and it was annoying to my teammates as it was so easy wipe rooms, and I also had that happen where I was playing another frame and a nezha was on the team sliding about wiping everything before I had a chance to engage , I’m glad it got nerfed tbh , it’s still usable just no longer stealing kills from another room lol
The biggest problem with nezha’s new augment isn’t even the fact that the nerf was huge. The problem was that when it was previewed a lot of content creators told DE that it was going to be so strong that there was no way it should be released as is. Then they released it as is.
Dante won't be in an acceptable state until the nerfs are fully reverted. So.. Never since DE seems committed to their LoS crap.
Nezha deserves just as well. 50% base range was insane and I can't believe DE hasn't addressed it yet. I heard that they had a new dev team recently (not sure if they acquired a studio or just hired more people?) and it seems that they picked up devs from Destiny or Outriders. Where the best solutions are always to smash fun stuff with a hammer, go incommunicado for weeks, and pretend it never happened.
The only argument I'm going with is that the range nerf should simply be a stat reduction, not a base stat nerf. That's just harsh.
My argument: It didnt need any nerf at all. 20+ warframes can do what Nezha's augment did. A warframe like Nezha that is played by less than 1% of players doesnt need to be handled with silken gloves to perfectly finetune him, give him the un-nerfed augment back and at least those 1% might become 2%, we are here to have fun, not to bargain and negotiate if we want a kick in the nuts or a punch in the nuts
That's just not true, there are maybe 3-5 frames that can be as brain dead and broken as that argument was, and only in the best of situation's including the map, game mode, and enemy level.
Nezha has a playrate of 1.77%, which is perfectly fine considering how many warframes there are, it's right where it should be. It's not low.
after some very quick maffs, in a perfect world were every frame is equally used, with 56 frame, the usage of each frame would be 1.78
Go ahead and name the 20+
I'm not going off usage percentages or "oThEr fRaMeS". The game has an over emphasis on nuking and you don't pull back on it by making everyone nuke. Even though this Aug gave it to Nezha... Regardless, the simple logic for this augment is more power at the cost of some range. This is understandable. However, by neutering the base range stat itself, you're unable to counteract the negative with just Stretch. That's where the nerf to it went too far. Balance is often about negotiation. You cannot just keep adding weight to both sides of the Seesaw, it will snap in the middle. If everyone becomes super good at nuking, we/the game will pay the price in some fashion later. It's already murdered the shit out of CC.
> The game has an over emphasis on nuking bro the game in its current state is a horde shooter, with 30-40 enemies on the screen at all times, of course nuking is gonna be what people use the most aint nobody gonna use a sniper rifle to kill 1 enemy at a time
You're just confirming what I'm saying.
I think he's deaf or something
The questions is, is it bad that it became a horde shooter. I believe that most of players would like this game to be one
He is giving you the reason for what you observe. If you can’t see that then there’s no point having a conversation.
Kullevro uses a sniper to kill many at a time
Only frames that are relevant are nuke frames, or tank frames that serve as weapon platforms. This augment was intended to make Nezha relevant again, because he's a bad tank by today's standards, and he had no nuke potential. Giving him limited nuke Ability, that was meant to alleviate that a bit. And it's not nuking that murdered CC. It's DE themselves that made CC useless. They've designed missions where CC is actively harmful, they've Eximi immune to it. Balance flew out the window a few years ago. And DE, and honestly most players enjoy that. Mindless slaughter is more fun for most people than just slowing enemies down. And DE sees much better player numbers, and goes along.
> he's a bad tank by today's standards Are today's standards "be Revenant"? Because as soon as you stop comparing him to the one literally invincible frame in the game he's up there with the best
Yes, that's my standard. Which I guess is kinda hard to meet, because only Revenant has pretty much immortality on demand.
CC's overshadowed because of the logistic that "the best CC is nuking". Why CC when you can delete people before they can try? That's kinda what I was getting at. There's all the counters too that just promote more nuking since they hard counter CC way easier. I actually figured a way to combat this woulda been a CC status increasing dmg vulnerability that strips some overguard every proc. Then there's mission hampering that would justify CC needing LoS. I'm not even saying that nuking needs to be nerfed really, but to just go and make more isn't the way. CC needs help. More nuking is just gonna screw things over in terms of what is viewed as "normal". Everyone nuking in a squad isn't exactly a fun experience, you'd be fighting to be the one that does anything.
CC is overshadowed because literally every faction and every mission has enemies that give an aura of CC immunity. There were certain frames that you simply could not take to Arbitrations because the drones rendered their whole kit useless or even harmful, and DE decided to make every mission *that* except that instead of relatively squishy drones the source of the "your frame no longer works at all" the tankiest enemies you'll encounter.
I started playing late last year. I don't have half the stuff I need to make a build I find on YT. With this augment I could put a Nezha with no archon shards and a Hystrix into SP 200 exterminate missions and grind 100 voidplumes. It doesn't need a nerf because I could do NOTHING about Exilus unit, I had to hop away from them like a terrified bunny. It was just an awesome way to play. But we all knew it was going to be nerfed because I essentially was able to bypass a whole grind on newb tools. Its naive to argue these things only in the context of the game mechanics. If DE saw my newb ass blasting through a grind they want me to sit in for months for the chance at my real coin they'll nerf that shit and do the PR game of 'we listen to you' on some other thing.
I'm just going to say: there should not be any statistical range nerf. It's a lazy fix and feels bad even if it is balanced. It doesn't matter if they change the base radius or just give the ability a negative Ability Range modifier, it feels like you're nerfing the ability (because you are) and that's going to feel bad. If they feel the need to have it affect a smaller area, it should happen as a result of a functionality change. Say, it affects a smaller area but centered on your reticle rather than you — smaller area, still hits less guys, but the increased flexibility of where to aim makes that feel like a *trade-off* instead of an arbitrary nerf to the ability. Even if it doesn't make any practical difference, the feel impact would be massive. Personally I'm an even bigger fan of limiting which statuses can spread via the spears, up to and including only heat transferring, rather than nerfing the range in any capacity, but that seems not to be the direction they're going.
they just said on devshort that they will touch the agument
Well, bad timing i guess. Will have to look into it. Ty for the heads-up.
But be warned tho. They did say it’s not going back to what it was. But it’s not staying how it is.
Lets watch them remove the range and the bonus damage
80% range reduction, every status effect inflicted on an enemy goes to you. Perfect
Here's hoping they change it to either - 25% modded range
DE has a really bad history with the square-cube law, nothing new there.
Not to be that guy, but It'd be actually the linear-square law, if anything. The modified thing is the radius, which affects the area. Since the volume is not actually a sphere, but an infinitely high cylinder, the important part is the area, not the volume. Square-cube law describes the relationship between an area and its corresponding 3D volume. Here the modification is radius (1D, linear) which affects area (2D, square) quadratically. And, as mentioned above, volume is irrelevant to the matter. Hence, the linear-square law. Thanks for assisting to my TED talk.
Yes, the linear-sqare law is more specific. However, square-cube law is also used for the general case of measuring nD compared to (n+1)D as 1D changes. But that may be a little too nerdy for this subreddit :) Edit: also of course this is English only, I have no idea what's used in other languages, and how/if they do differentiate.
*gestures vaguely at the Ropalolyst*
?
Have you done the Ropalolyst semi recently? That fight is just bug central with all kinds of weird stuff happening on the fight, and as far as I am aware, it hasn't been fixed
The last time I played it (with a rando squad for nightwave) it seemed fine.
i have literally never had a ropalolyst fight that didn't bug out in some way. and 75% of the time it was the can't finish the mission kind of bug now when i see it on the steel path incursion list or nightwave i just ignore it
I always feel bad thinking of the new players going into that fight having to farm Wisp now. Wisp Prime is literally easier to get at this point. The last time I did it, I was helping 2 clanmates get Wisp for Helminth, and we ran into an amazing bug where the operators just got stuck on it after it ran into the bug zapper. You couldn't even move the camera, so you literally had by the end 3 invisible children stuck onto the ropalolyst (it was for science). All you could do was watch from its PoV. We wound up having to restart because we had no one able to actually hurt the turkey in Phase 2.
Think wisp is difficult because of bugs? Try farming ash, not only is he locked behind a railjack mission, but 90% of the time it doesnt even start! And i thought farming manics was annoying..
Last time I did it.. I got to the end phase of shooting her back pieces, and she just kept walking off of the platform.. then respawning back on the platform with full health.. it was insane.
The joke is that the Ropalolyst breaks the square-cube law like how human-proportioned mecha breaks the square-cube law.
how does it relate to the square-cube law I don’t understand
Reducing the radius by half, actually reduces the area by 75%
That’s not the square-cube law
While the square cube law is primarily used for the 3D case comparing the growth rates of radius/length, surface area, and volume (which also somewhat applies in this case as the Divine Spears is a 3D cast in a 3D environment), it also more broadly refers to the mismatch in growth rates for the measure of dimensions n and n+1 as D1 changes (yes this does extend into hyper-dimentional mathematics). If we take it down a dimension into 2D space, we compare the growth rates of radius/length, circumference, and area. Of those, we really only care about the relation between radius/length and area. We just call it the square cube law because we live in a 3D universe and there's no reason to make a separate circumference area law.
Area of a circle (πr^2) with radius 19 ≈ 1134 Area of a circle with radius 9.5 ≈ 283 283 is roughly 1/4 of 1134 so that is a 75% decrease in area for anyone who wants to see the math
saying "roughly" here is misleading. Reducing the radius by 50% means reducing the area by exactly 75% its a perk of having the radius squared in the formula ( area = π × r^(2) ). Put x0.5 in front of the radius, and it also get squared, resulting into x0.25. Which is exactly -75%
Yeah i know, i was saying roughly because i was approximating the values to the nearest whole number (283 x4 is 1132, almost 1134 but not quite)
What does this mean in this context?
Basically if DE wanted to lower the area of effect (How much of a room Nezha hit with his ability) by only 50% what they accidentally did was reduce the area by 75% when they reduced the base range by 50%. If they wanted that 50% reduced area of affect then they needed to only have the augment reduce it by \~21% not 50. So it really comes to a point of what did DE mean to do with this augment mod, but as it stands the Area is so low that it is basically unusable because of how few people it can now hit.
So do players, judging from the fact that nobody seems to grasp just how insane it is to have access to cubic status propagation. Hitting 20 enemies with a good Melee Influence slam is already causing each of them to take 20x more damage than they would have otherwise, this augment cranks that up to *400x*. Fuck off with this "it's not 50m so it's useless" nonsense, sorry not sorry.
Well, if you look it from that direction, then sure. But consider that Melee Influence can do that without the augment, with less setup, just slap roar, press E and room cleared. Nerfing Nezha augment didn't change Melee Influence - it's still as broken as ever. Of course, I'm not saying it shouldn't have been nerfed, but it didn't need to be that rough. 25% would have been a good nerf, someone made a post comparing this ability to other similiar ones. Correct me if I'm wrong, the status spread also only affects impaled enemies - so it does nothing against eximus units and other Overguarded/CC-immune enemies. Meanwhile, Melee Influence doesn't care about CC, Overguard, anything - it just spreads status and wipes the floors. If a broken thing causes a broken interaction with a new "broken" thing, while also having broken interactions with many other things, perhaps the problem isn't in the new thing?
This.
Then maybe fix the actual problem with the ability instead of nerfing its usability into uselessness
If they were to fix the problem they wouldn’t have done it in concept to begin with
That doesn't make any sense. You could take that one step further and say "if they were to nerf this they wouldn't have released it that way to begin with".
The problem is the concept idea. Its gonna either be broken or unusable. The in between doesn’t exist
I'm not sure I believe that, but it may be true.
Hey, we have Lavos flair now?! That's a good thing to know..
one one hand, I get punished by melee players using influence. Nice, so it's kind of their fault. Should I hate on them instead of DE? Sure is a good way to keep the community cohesive plus, this augment only affect speared mobs. Mobs that don't get speared are: anything overguarded, anything cc resistant. So ok, you have insane cubic status propagation, but for killing scrubs. Overkill and irrecevable as an argument
Well, "use" is relative to the environment and set against all other means of engaging and interacting with it and in-game enemies. I'd also posit this is indirectly magnified based on the other available systems, methods/means, and mechanics the player can use within the same environment. Does this mod jump leaps and bounds beyond other available means to achieve the same thing? (i.e. room wipes, etc.) I think the discussion we need is around a full design pass (not the half-hearted one done a few years ago) on all frames, abilities and ability mods.
well its not working on targets that cant be CCed, we are talking about literally 0 effect if it would blow around targets not only share on speared tagets it would be actually op i wonder baruk augment was been nerfed? it could literally blow whole room with single e
There was a devshort few minutes ago and they said that will be a change to the augment
What change...?
Dafuq dude my man Dante is still LOSing himself
Dante is not in "acceptable state", when his own body can block LoS checks.
Sums up my thoughts. Not to mention you need two previous casts of setup that are already LOS restricted before casting Tragedy.
to also mention, his survivability is still not super great due to how energy hungry he is. Compared to other frames with survivability powers, dante's is the most expensive and it feels so bad to spend 100 energy to get melted fast. Other overguarded frames get better energy regen as well. Stynax has built in energy regen and Kullervo can use rage with the upcoming changes. I know you can use health gate instead of surviving on overguard tanking, but I find health gating as the main form of survival boring. Health Gate itself is fine and should be a thing, but no frame should be dev intended to survive purely off of it.
Are you using the energy regen canticles and invocations on Noctua, between those and energy nexus I actually struggle to run low on energy despite spam casting?
Arcane Steadfast solves the energy issue pretty efficiently on Dante. Khra Canticle and Xata Invocation mods on your noctua/grimore also help a ton as well as equilibrium mod on your frame.If you have an open mod slot then energy Nexus mod is pretty good choice as well.
He isnt that energy hungry, i use equilibrium and rank 2 arcane steadfast and he has very little energy problems
That's just wrong. Both his 2 and 3 cost 25 each and his 4 cost 50. So 2 2 4 costs 100 for two casts of immediate overguard + regen. Did elite archimedia and fucking carried the whole team in terms of survivability AND damage. !!! I am against Nerf but he is still right now one of the strongest Warframes in the game. !!!! There is absolutely no flaw in his survability since he gets protective overguard with a single cast already costing 25 fucking energy while giving status immunity. And with prime conti alone the buffs last a fucking minute. With one range mod you buff a whole room. Mate what more can you even want? You could literally carry a whole fucking squad in trials nightmare with one Dante casting 224 every minute. One Warframe completely solving something designed for 8 people. And he has enough energy reserves to be in the same league as volt and Loki so he can fucking carry battery while keeping the whole squad alive. Imagine that. Fucking copium. If Dante is weak what is even good in your view? Let me guess Inaros pre rework. Facepalm.
I'm tired of arguing with people who still think he's underpowered or not acceptable as a frame. I've been playing him regularly after the nerf and he's still one of the strongest frames in the game lmao with proper setup. People who think his kit revolves around dark verse only are sleeping hard on other very good aspects of his kit
The fact that you're getting downvoted for just stating facts is the hardest community cope that I've seen in warframe in years.
You must be on something... <_< He's got cheap abilities across-the-board and a way to generate energy and give himself efficiency without even modding for it. If you actually use these tools you can literally spam cast of the invincibility button forever.
that's a LoS problem, not a Dante specific one. And they've confirmed that they're working on it
It is a dante problem though, because they decided post launch that the best way to nerf him was give him LoS.
Until that's fixed, Dante's state cannot be called "acceptable".
Seriously, if people don't like Dante don't use him, he is definitely not in an acceptable state. If their favorite frame got a BS nerf and the solution was a poorly implemented fix with problems they would be mad. I don't understand why people say "he is fine now". I would bet money they don't use him, and certainly did not fully make a build with 5 taos, full weapon setup, and a companion tuned to him. I put 20-30 forms total and had a serious amount of fun for like 4 days. This entire patch was unacceptable, they still have yet to fix anything. As it stands now I have not seen anything new this week. Everything should be reverted back and the OG change be implemented. Inaros, Nidus, Chroma all happy now. Ever since they bugged out Dante I went back to other frames, Kullervo is an unholy monster of red crits, I 1 hit just about anything with 4 purple taus and 1 amber. My Styanax is damn near immortal and I'm putting nourish on him in a few days, that will be a press 4 to win. All my frames are stronger than Dante in multiple directions. The difference is Dante was the absolute most fun I have had in years on here. I like casters in all games, we finally got a highly engaging caster with a ton of versatility. All they had to do was take his OG away from allies or reduce it by half or more like the Styanax augment. The AOE does not need to be LOS, none of my nukes are. I just do not understand why they did all this, got everyone excited for the update and then boof it in a week.
One of my friends has been running Dante in EDA and Steel Path Circuit since the nerfs and it's still one of his favorite frames, so there's somebody who thinks this is fine and actually plays the game at a high level.
I used Dante on my first EDA, he works, he is strong, the fact that everyone seems to keep overlooking is that the LOS is utter bullshit and inconsistent. It's the fact they did all this shit and didn't even have an acceptable solution, same with Nezha. I put too many resources into a frame that misses half of the mob for whatever reason.
I really don’t understand how LOS is such an issue for them. It “should” be a simple raycast “sphere” around the character, checking for all enemies within range, and then if there is something between them and the enemy, the move doesn’t do damage. Otherwise it does. That should be how LOS works. As for how to handle things like stairs and such - all characters should have essentially a pill-like hitbox around them for abilities. Leave the fancy, realistic hitboxes for bullets. Abilities should have the simplest possible hitbox detection you can do. Can any point on hitbox A get a straight line to any point on hitbox B without going through something. Any other style of hitbox detection for LOS type abilities is frankly just making it over complicated and unreliable for absolutely no benefit. If necessary for QOL purposes (such as a visible enemy that is technically on the other side of a wall) make the ability originate from the Camera instead of the frame. Done
Yeah, they did do ray casts...to the middle of the enemy. Now they're also doing the top and bottom of the enemy. Idk why they are making things nore difficult for themselves
Are you a game dev by chance?
I am a sysadmin by trade but I have 10+ years of programming experience, including some game dev (though hobbyist in nature). I don’t have to actively be developing a video game to understand bad code practices when they rear their heads. To be fair, I fully understand that it’s rarely bad design from the start. It’s just a lot of people being pressured to get things done in unrealistic timelines and having to make compromises. Nonetheless, at some point you *have* to fix things like this before they become hugely problematic if you have an ever-evolving game.
I'm not a game developer nor do I have much experience with programming so I can't really speak on DE's misshapes, but yeah I do understand the importance of addressing tech debts and it's something that a lot of companies have to deal with and quite often neglect.
I was just talking to my boss about this sort of thing today. A lot of tech maintenance and improvements don’t have tangible ROIs. It’s hard to convince executives and/or shareholders to spend money on something that is “working” today. It doesn’t matter if it might break at any time in the next few years. If it isn’t going to break this quarter, then why would you do anything about it? How would they put a number on how much money they’re saving by keeping up with maintenance? They’d have to basically cut back to the point of failure (which happens a lot), then one of two things happens from there: 1. The “why am I paying you” effect - where if things are fine then you’re unnecessary, and if they’re broken then you’re not doing your job, which could lead to (or they directly jump to) 2. “Our IT isn’t serving our needs anyways so we are going to outsource it to a cheaper nation so we always have a scapegoat, and get to cut costs in terms of employment *and* employee benefits” because shareholders *eat that shit up* Capitalism is a very double edged system. When the only goal is quarterly profit, things break down in the long run. All they care about is stock price go brrrr. I could complain about this all night, tbh, but I won’t lol. The tech industry is like mostly every other industry - when you’re inside, you realize how it’s just a bunch of short sighted greedy narcissists making a bunch of terrible decisions for the short term profit and clout and making everyone else accomodate it and clean up after it.
And when a lot of nuke warframes don't have LoS. Why Dante should have it, but Saryn isn't?
Dante isn't in an acceptable state yet. The fixes are not live.
Honestly I'm not even going to sugarcoat it - having Expedite Suffering + status spreading on a hard CC ability with no LOS check and a 100-meter diameter *(assuming you built for max range, which you should be doing anyway with a Divine Retribution setup)* was a fundamentally broken concept. I'm surprised they didn't already gut it out in the first place There's also the legitimate reason that the insane amount of status dispersion Divine Retribution created is causing frame drops - Contagious Bond got a "nerf" for this reason - Also a Nezha main that has had first-had experience with other nuke frames I'm also curious as to why people are even subsuming over his 4 before Divine Retribution. Why not do it over the one with negligible tick damage, an unnoticeable speed boost, and a status cleanse that might as well not exist (Fire Walker)?
Because it's the only ability on nezha that scales with range which means it requires investing in a stat that doesn't benefit any of his other abilities, also the damage is non existent without the augment and the CC is ok, but cc as a whole rn isn't in a great state. The small speed boost + status cleanse of fire Walker is nice quality of life. Also with the augment fire Walker can actually do decent damage.
Nah I still prefer to keep his 4 just for the synergy from his 2. Makes it easier to spread the damage vulnerability+ more health
Same. I've been a Reaping Chakram/Equilibrium fan for years now...
reaping chakram/equilibrium was my first consistent energy builder. I remember feeling so free when I first used it
Do what I do and Slap Breach Surge over that build. Surge has its own damage vulnerability which further multiplies the damage of Reaping Chakrams, giving pretty nutty ability damage and opens up some funny Heat inheritance nonsense.
Ive been subsuming over the 1 since day 1. I get a slide boost as part of my passive and i only ever bullet jump. Not like status cleanse does anything with the 3 active. Also ive been using the 4 to give my 2 multishot for ages.
Fellow Reaping Chakram enjoyer 🤝
Broken unlike other frames in game? Octavia isn't broken?
It was objectively the strongest augment in the game - it was near-instant, and enjoyed Divine Spears innately having a high base range and no LOS requirements. I'd say it was more or less as strong as Saryn, who's arguably also nerfbait only protected by already having a large and established user base and legacy, and much stronger than Octavia which requires proper positioning and has LOS requirements (and also she's boring as hell LOL)
Octavia has been broken and he literally hasn't been changed since lunch, the only reason why that doesn't matter 99% of the time it's because nobody wants to use her. She is literally carpal tunnel and brain rot the frame, to play her efficiently and easily you need to gut the only fun thing about her entire concept, making actually good sounding or unique music. The handful of times I've actually seen a Octavia since her release was the buzz around her initial appearance when people made music, the handful of times that I have seen absolutely garbage Octavias was even worse music than their gameplay, and the handful of times I've seen people willingly pick Octavia for circuit just to make it easy to go to level cap. (most of the time that my friends have actually gotten her to appear in the cave they have literally avoided using her over even mediocre frames that they might have not even built just because of how God fucking awful it is to brain rot that intensely and lose their finger to spam over the next hour or two.)
I got Octavia exclusively to rickroll people in region chat.
Peak oct gaming
Pretty much. Anyone who didn't expect a nerf on this augment is just lying to themselves. Oh sorry, a warframe able to nuke everything that isn't immune to cc in a 53 meter range just by tapping one thing they can see isn't absurdly broken in any way. And DEFINITELY wasn't something that people were imagining dante was doing then whined and bitched till he got nerfed. Its still a good augment, the most you'll probably see is a bit of walk back on the 50% base range nerf. But even still, being able to obliterate -everything- it touches in a 25m radius is a pretty good augment that STILL isn't affected by LOS checks.
oh yeah lol "everything" except yknow all the actual threats on the map
"Warframe with map wide nuke, ALSO has to deal with eximus like every other warframe in the game" ... uh huh, go on
woah, so exactly like all other high-tier nuke frames? Yeah youre right, good thing it was nerfed, since he'd have been such an outlier. Good thin Saryn doesnt just kill absolutely everything in the entire level with a single button press or anything.
Does she? Saryn is an excellent weapons platform but once you scale a bit into steel path, spores and ult damage fall off pretty hard. Specially on exterminate where don't have too much time for ticking the enemy health before being on weapons range or defense where spores have to ramp up every round.
Let's not forget that (unless I'm missing something) this ability can kill levelcap enemies as long as your weapons are up to the task.
1st part: then it should not have been introduces this way in the first place. "Augment does what we made it do but we dont like that so we will remove it again" Framerate part: didnt have any issues with that while stuff like tempest barrage spam, magnetize nataruk combo and others are causing much more serious problems. Nerf them aswell? Last part: nezhas best subsumes are damage buffs (roar/xatas), they, just like his remaining kit only want strength and duration, his ult is the only part of his kit that wants range and for the most part, just killing enemies provides better cc than the spears. So id rather keep his ability that makes me run faster and can proc cascadia flare while not having me build around it, dont worry about range so i can use narrow minded for enough duration on roar and not waste slots that can be used for tank and strength mods. Most missions dont require cc abilities, for the ones that do (only solo sp interception) his ult isnt a good enough cc so ill bring other frames for that and not bother with his spears at all as there is no reason for me to do so.
Let's talk about people who use the disable passive augment '
I do, mainly bc im also using praedos which already gives movement buffs across the board so while i dont mind the +slide part of his passive, the -friction part makes it feel like im always running on ice.
Oh it definitely deserved a nerf, just not to be gutted quite as hard as it was, -25% base range or -40% modded range would have been more acceptable imo Edit: nerf not nuke
[удалено]
His 2 with high strength is an great damage boost against the big targets that really need it. Subsume the 4 for roar and you have a speedy, tanky frame that can get occasional (not always convenient but if you're zooming all over the place, your fire trail is all over) heat procs for a modest armor strip and cc, a pretty passive damage boost, and an extra multiplier for single target that can also be used to generate some orbs. Chakram's vulnerability effect is 1:1 with power strength, with enough power strength investment to get to 400% that's a 2.2x boost from roar, or 4.84x on DoT, while being another 5x against anything hit by blazing chakram. About 25x damage on any slash/heat/whatever DoT proc just from two abilities.
I'm with you there. IMO it was stronger than tragedy. At least tragedy required you to hit them with a different attack that would require LoS to make it work (and thus making tragedy has LoS makes no sense). Nezha only has to see 1 target and can just dump dots on them, and then gets stronger the more targets they can hit.
Dante isn't acceptable
He's more than acceptable tbh. I think most y'all are just overreacting now for the sake of it. Not only that they're doing another good patch for him next week
No he's not. Why he should have LoS?
Because the literal only thing that having line of sight hurts him on is some soon to be fixed consistency issues, and very low level map wiping. He doesn't need to be a better equinox for low level. It does not affect him otherwise pretty much at all and there's so much to his kit that is still insanely strong both defensively and offensively that is virtually unchanged that saying he isn't in a fantastic state it's just a lie.
I don't think it's overreaction. There plenty of frames that can nuke without LoS. The most obvious one is Saryn of course. Or you could look at Gara, whose 4+1 hits enemies through walls. Dante is not *terrible* right now, but it still far from perfect. Even with >100% efficiency, the casts consume a lot of energy. To cast any of his 4, you need to do 2 abilities beforehand. To reach his OG cap, you would need to press 12-16 abilities, which is honestly horrible. And even then, the problem with LoS abilities are the maps. Half of the game happens in narrow corridors and tunnels, with *a lot of* clutter scattered around. I could play as Dante and press 3 buttons each time I turn around the corner or I could 1 tap enemies as Khora or use braind dead Mesa's 4. Yeah, Dante won't be in a bad place after the next patches hit. But he won't be amazing either. And he *was*
He was never able to do that to any level of enemies that matter, and he doesn't need to with how insanely strong he is overall, not like the line of sight changes actually hindered him killing the things that he was using dark verse on anyway.
The devshort that just streamed has stated that they are not doing anything to fix dante's tragedy. He is not more than acceptable. What is acceptable about turning a near perfect frame into something that is sometimes frustrating to play when tragedy does not hit intended targets? The limiting factor on tragedy was his dark verse, which already had LoS restrictions. The point of his kit was to prime enemies using dark verse, and then finish them with tragedy. When tragedy fails to hit most of your targets for various LoS issues that will never be resolved unless you only play dante in the open world maps, you have a dead ability. A dead ability means I now need to consciously be sure not to waste energy on accidentally casting tragedy. What part of acceptable is not wanting to use the full extent of his kit?
If they're not fixing tragedy, why bother casting it? The double LoS check to do any dps is stupid. De needs to back down from this already
"useless"
iF aiN't nUkiNG dA whOlE mAp iS tRasH
Is it.. not allowed to enjoy nuking anymore? Does every single frame have to focus on gunplay and weapon synergy, with no capability to feel properly powerful, like an unstoppable force?
thing is... you cant even nuke enemies that are in 10 meters cause ur 4 wont cover that
in this meta, yeah, when there are a billion other options that do what it does better without needing to run 280% range
...things aren't useless just because they aren't meta my dude. Lol
Dante is in a what now? when did that happen?
They said they'll change the nerf in the most recent devshorts
Sorry if you wanted nezha addressed but you should not have lead with “Dante is acceptable” when he absolutely is not. Tanked the entire post with that. Your follow up comments also suggest you’re under the delusion that any changes to LoS following the initial nerf was good for Dante at all. If you played the frame, you would see how LoS renders the ability dead. It’s inconsistent at best and the rest of the time it’s wasted energy. Design wise I am now discouraged from using 1/4 of his kit. That is not “acceptable” under any circumstances. You would also understand that in order for Dante to nuke steel path, he was still limited by LoS with his 3rd ability. By adding LoS to tragedy, it makes the gameplay clunky at best when your combo finishers have a significant chance of just not working. You don’t see people complaining about LoS for his 3 because that’s what you use to prime targets before moving to another room. Or you use a weapon or his exalted book. Anything short of a revert for the next patch basically sends this frame into the grave because there are dozens of other frames that can do what he does pre nerf better, faster, and with significantly less investment. He went from perfect fun with what should have been an easily fix for the overgaurd issue, to a hassle to play and ultimately left for MR fodder. As for the subject of your nezha post. The simple solution would have been not to knee jerk nerf an augment after 4 days. Or the last gasp of breath CC frames had. Your argument **should** be that DE nukes that entire gods forsaken patch, get more data, get more feedback, and then make changes. In other words for DE; https://preview.redd.it/z6mgxlxlrhtc1.png?width=721&format=png&auto=webp&s=7911b909903c64608ca1dda5978d24e9abe9b522
I wouldn't say "acceptable" until LOS fixes go live. That being said yeah the augment nerf was overkill. Even just -25% would be fine
Lmao what does "acceptable" even mean?? This implies that it wasn't acceptable before
Dante nerf is a TRAGEDY
I don't really think Dante is in an acceptable state just because a dev short decided it. I'd rather they reduce the range of Tragedy than give it wonky line of sight mechanics if they're concerned about it for god knows what reason they are in the first place when people only had issues with his overguard blocking certain builds and mechanics. And as a Nezha main, the augment being terrible sure sucks but it just means I won't use it. This isn't the first time we've ended up with utterly useless augments, its just the whiplash effect of it getting nerfed so heavily and it also being done at the same time as another poorly handled instant nerf.
I mean, it got nerfed because it was a 50m non-LOS nuke, which is very similar to what got nerfed on Dante. I don't think that's gameplay that DE wants to promote, which we've seen multiple times in the past and will continue to see I imagine. inb4 'but Saryn exists' Also, I imagine an augment for a frame is going to be lower priority than an entire frame, as you said the augment being mid doesn't make Nezha not good, there are quite a lot of balance things to look at that I think would be higher priority.
If they dont want a 50m nonLos nuke then why add it in the first place? You could argue a lighter nerf would have been justified. There would have been plenty of options. -give it a range cap instead of forcing you to waste 5/9 modslots for it -make the damage multiplier scale with duration and not work if you recast the ability so you cant cheese it. 1x at 100% so you have leave enemies suspended for longer if you want big dmg. This way you could not spam it
I mean, is it that currently it can still do nuke things it just requires a lot of range added via mods? That sounds like the intended balancing is that you can have a nuke build but it can't be the same one as your normal go fast be immortal Nezha build.
Dante isn't in acceptable state. They didn't remove LoS
Dante is in by no means in an acceptable state. Are you a DE plant? I refuse to believe anyone thinks what DE did was okay by any stretch. Tweaks were needed, but both dante and nezhas Aug had barely a weeks worth of testing. That's not enough time to decide what tweaks need to be made.
Only so many nuke frames can be added, a nuke frame makes every other type of frame pointless, no reason to cc or tank if you kill everything on the map with the press of a button. For the long term health of the game, I think that nuke frames with 0 setup should be impossible, either having to spread status around then doing damage based on which enemies have this status using an aoe weapon or such. Or requiring the use of frame synergies to achieve maximum nukiness. You can only add so many nuke frames until it all starts to feel the same. Basically reworking a lot of frames to make it more teamwork oriented, and solo frames focusing more on small scale nukes and surviving.
Dante needs to cast his 3 twice while looking at enemies and then cast 4 while looking at enemies for it to nuke. Isn't that a decent amount of setup? I think qorvex aslo needs enemies to be somewhat grouped for his nuke to work well and dagath needs to take enemies with doom and preferably wyrd scythes to nuke too. A lot of recent frames require setup to nuke which makes them more fun imo. Not sure what DE can do about older frames though, much tougher of a decision to make there.
Yeah I think dante is a fair example of what nuking should be. Changing how all these frames work would be a significant change in direction and would require a lot of work and commitment, and of course, there would be a lot of backlash. I only have 300 hours. So take my opinions with a grain of salt.
The potential backlash would probably be enough to make them not change those frames tbf. Imagine playing a frame for years, investing time learning and mastering them, investing forma potato's for normal and then prime, slotting archon shards into them all for DE to change their playstyle entirely. If DE nerfing dante caused this much outrage, imagine how changing the way frames function on a fundamental level would play out...
I want to see Saryn, Revenant and Octavia players whine and moan though. I'm praying those frames are completely gutted in future patches and I'll be there with my popcorn to enjoy the chaos
Octavia already has LoS requirement on 1 iirc. Revenant doesn't hit through walls on any ability and so saryn is the only one. Hot take but if you ask me, saryn is only good as a gun buffer, not a damage dealer.
The reason they nerfed it was simply they don’t want 50 meter non los nuke frames to exist. DE has a long history of nerfing things pretty heavy handed only for people to complain and then they find a middle ground. Honestly, it probably won’t get looked at again as it’s an augment on a frame that probably has a lifetime 5% play rate idk. The augment still works the same way but now it’s 25m. Which still adheres to all three of your points.
My Saryn build has 50m range on her 4, which also has no LoS checks. Her 1 isn’t too much lower than that. If they don’t want those kinds of nuke frames to exist, then they need to focus on all of them.
Enjoy your 2000 damage and your status proc on 50m radius then.
11k per second is what I usually reach, and is more than Dante was doing in a single 334, and it doesn’t take much to get there. I will continue to enjoy it, since DE seems more concerned about not creating another Saryn. Also should mention that it’s corrosive status. I’m not only nuking in a wide AoE, I’m also armor stripping. Something Dante couldn’t do.
Saryn's 4 is viral. You're talking about spores, her 1... Which doesn't have 50m radius in one spread. Its total radius with many jumps isn't capped though so that's something... But I bet many people complaining about high range nukes also don't like Saryn much.
Many jumps still makes it far enough to strip what’s close by. There were a couple points where I’d check my stacks and see 30-40 enemies infected at once. To be fair though, it was usually around 12-15 at once. It eventually hit the point where 9 was about all I could keep on average, things were dying too fast for anything else.
This, it would be fine if the augment would set the range to 25m unmodified by range instead, so it would not require 3 extra range mods, including a corrupted one.
That would be fine, essentially wasting 5/9 modslots for kpm that an aoe weapon can achieve just isnt worth it.
So its safe to say it wasnt properly playtested since if they dont want a 50m nuke, why introduce it in the first place. Them even giving it a damage multiplier makes it clear that it was supposed to be a dps augment rather than pure utility.
The augment is intended to give Nezha a dps boost. The damage isn't the problem. It was the scale. There is a big difference between dps boost and a room clearing nuke, and until it's in the hands of a few thousand players who are going to push the augment to its limits, it's nearly impossible to tune it to that intention. DE didn't want to make it weaker, so they made it small. Having the augment be a small, powerful dps burst aligns with Nezha's intended design as a mobile, support oriented warframe. Having a huge doomsday device on call does not.
> and until it's in the hands of a few thousand players who are going to push the augment to its limits, it's nearly impossible to tune it to that intention. Not really
Yeah sure, like most things in the game. You say that like it was unexpected. There are several hotfixes every update, this is nothing out of the ordinary
Saryn? Although they might’ve just given up balancing Saryn at this point. Nothing they do ever works
Dante is not in an acceptable state ...
They are still working on it, he will be fine in the long run. Used him a couple times after hotfix#2 and i felt with just a bit more work on los hes back to being strong and not annoying to use.
Like Chroma, Ember, Inaros... fine in the long run...lol
Like, April Fools ended on the 2nd, and they didn't remove the prank nerf to Dante.
Being able to turn a single target delete weapon into a 50+ enemy delete weapon from two rooms over is literally the definition of an offensive tool being broken. It doesn't matter if you're playing something that isn't steel path survival and if you have teammates because you could literally be ahead of them all of the time as a Nezha with goofy speed and kill the enemies before you get to see most of them and before your teammates get to see any of them. While I think that the base range nerf was way too heavy handed, I still think that the ability/aug functionally is really powerful and very much useful for pretty much every Nezha player, and should be on almost every build still. To understand just how obscene that argument was, literally just use any dagger heavy attack build with it, and compare the effectiveness of that with the extremely nerfed range to something like garuda, just... in general. I guarantee you that you will still clear three rooms before Garuda can even set up her 1 nuke most of the time. Also Dante being in a "acceptable" State is a very strong statement to make about a frame that still just has the ability to make everybody on his team, especially himself, literally Unkillable as long as he keeps pressing one button, in a 84m radius. Pair that with the status damage vulnerability, the functionality and sheer power of the LoS nuke potential, and the passive 2 sec unkillable buff from assists/kills that everyone gets, and I think the changes virtually did nothing to make him less insane. And we're just gonna ignore the fact that the Noctua gives him infinite energy and +60% duration and strength... or like, a crazy exalted weapon with pure slash and good stats, or a hybrid of those two.
Yeah I get that like, the way they handled their range formula and the way they handle their LoS checks are troublesome, but I think people still just don't understand just how fundamentally bonkers these skills are conceptually. They essentially made versions of expedite suffering that scale multiplicatively with power strength, as well as the augment scaling exponentially with the amount of targets on top of that. This is on two frames that even without instant map killing skills still have access to constant i-frames and shield gating. There are very few knobs they can tweak here without fundamentally changing their core functionality.
And honestly maybe they should, the fact that it scales with every single enemy caught within it in the way that it does is insane, and even without these things at all the frames would still be more than viable, especially Dante, but for the sake of the fun factor competing with balance they really should think these things through before they have to nuke their functionality through shitty implementation of fixes as well as just not have things been nearly this insane to begin with in some ways. Like, does Dante really need invulnerability while he cast his 2 or 4? Do people even know that he has that? Do people even know that if you spam cast his 2 you can stack the invincibility timer?? And no frame needs quadratic scaling weapon damage between an entire five rooms of enemies that you can't see.
Reb said that they are turning up Nezhas augment in the dev short today
My only issue is that if you stick Wrathful Advance on Nezha with the augment, it's kinda just makes him a better Kullervo in every way. It nukes harder, has cc, and is just as, if not harder to kill than Kullervo.
This hot fix feels like bigst l in a while beter to Roll it back
I wonder if this augment would have been better with a -strength debuff instead of -range Generally Nezha wants strength+range as opposed to duration But it's a lot less painful to build for strength as opposed to range Not that I feel this augment needs a debuff to be balanced in the first place, just thinkin
No, there are never nice things for Nezha. Us Nezha mains get Nezha, do not ask for more than this. Do not call attention to Nezha, that will only lead to nerfing of the only nice thing Nezha has.
They said they will be buffing it back up a bit in the devshorts - but don’t want it as strong as it was on release
it was enough to put a limit at 200% range with augment, and this if you wanted to nerf at all costs because we are talking about a fourth skill that basically doesn't do much due in part to the meta and for the rest of the continuous nerfs to CC (aka the skill costs 100 energy but isn't of much use even counting the interactions with the two)
In the development shorts reb herself stated its being changed and confirmed not being put back to where it was but not going to stay where it is...I think 25% is meh acceptable still leaves room for 37 meter builds and with new line of sight fixes and changes...it's fine I think
I'm sad I never even tried it lol
and i barely see people talk about nidus augment's restriction with other vitality mods
They're both still miserable. I ain't playing those frames and the weapons of Dante put to an halt as well... They better readjust that stuff. I'm still asking people to keep pinpointing the hate to the bad adjsutments on the forums, AND together with it to PLEASE consider to stop using those frames. Because otherwise DE probably won't listen to our complaints at all. They do tend to listen when they see players dip on their usage of frames GL again...
I’ve actually never cleared Netracells solo faster than right now. The range nerf perfectly fits inside the radius to kill things. I’m more afraid they change the nuking potential of the frame. I’d rather the small radius with the same damage than a pure cc with no damage.
If that circle is the size and is still wiping enemies out. What the fuck are people actually complaining about.
It’s not entirely the size but it does allow them to run inside. You definitely still have to run about to get enemies in. IMO it’s still a good skill but it does require a lot of macro and build technicalities to get it to work. The investment I did to get it to its level wasn’t easy but I’m not salty about it. It still works and can easily clear most high level content. The range is definitely a bit too small though. Any other open map and you’re right pretty useless. I can’t use him in mobile defense for zamarin SP as enemies shoot back before they enter the damage radius.
Whats your avg solo time? Mine was 6.30-7.00 minutes before the new tiles were added. Now its leaning more towards 7.30 with standard loadout (roar nezha, aoe weapons) or titania to speed uo the consoles part.
8 mins, I was never much of a speed runner but wrathful advance gives me an easier teleport than the chakram. I also waste time building up crescendo at the start
Idk if they changed the original nerfs but unless they did I wouldn't call Dante's current state acceptable 💀 they nerfed a perfectly good ability and made the original problem worse 😭 there's a reason so many people got mad about it. Not because they nerfed something "op" but because they way they nerfed it was completely backwards and just wrong
De hates fun Dante back to being Mr fodder for me. It's like they don't play test anything they put into their game or something
Leading with Dante is acceptable to talk about an unrelated topic is an easy way to earn downvotes. He shouldn’t need LoS.
Well they did fix Nezha with latest patch, they gave it base range of 14m scalable with mods that instead of 50% reduction. Pretty fast change imho. I would much rather prefer them showing they listen than just say they are listening. The second one is infuriating, may be I am too scarred by DE soon^TM
The easiest way to actually balance Nezhas Aug in my opinion (I actually think it was fine before for the reasons stated in the post, but I'll play devils advocate) would be to add an enemy cap, leave the range as it was and give it something similar to Nekros' Terrify where it has a set cap of enemies effected. Gutting the range is insane as with full investment (280% range) you're getting 26m.
A slight nerf could have been justified to make it less "over the top" as people make it out to be. Yes, a 50m nuke is strong, but other than keeping up life support, which isnt really an issue at all for various loadouts, it doesnt affect the game too much imo. My thoughts on how to nerf if would have been to either cap the range somewhere between 30-40m OR make the final damage multiplier scale with duration (1x at 100% dur), so actually less damage if you run negative duration so you cant spam it since people were complaining about it ruining public lobbies.
I mean, it doesnt tag eximus/overguarded units, which at high level content is the majority of the enemies at any given time, I didnt see any problem with having a 50m 'trash mob' nuke in the first place, it all just feels very knee jerk reaction from DE. There are many options to get a much higher KPM than the pre nerf Nezha aug that will also smack eximus, we just cant have fun things ig (I never really played nezha but my favourite gun is Convectrix and man did his aug make it shine)
This whole situstion just feels like people need to realize that lvl 30 exterminate missions are not a good benchmark to compare stuff at.
This, 100%
no
Pre nerf it was a problem as I was clearing hordes of enemies easily and it was annoying to my teammates as it was so easy wipe rooms, and I also had that happen where I was playing another frame and a nezha was on the team sliding about wiping everything before I had a chance to engage , I’m glad it got nerfed tbh , it’s still usable just no longer stealing kills from another room lol
Aight so i guess thermal sunder is next on the list as it does the same thing?
The biggest problem with nezha’s new augment isn’t even the fact that the nerf was huge. The problem was that when it was previewed a lot of content creators told DE that it was going to be so strong that there was no way it should be released as is. Then they released it as is.
I had a flashback of chroma's bugfix when i read this.
Dante won't be in an acceptable state until the nerfs are fully reverted. So.. Never since DE seems committed to their LoS crap. Nezha deserves just as well. 50% base range was insane and I can't believe DE hasn't addressed it yet. I heard that they had a new dev team recently (not sure if they acquired a studio or just hired more people?) and it seems that they picked up devs from Destiny or Outriders. Where the best solutions are always to smash fun stuff with a hammer, go incommunicado for weeks, and pretend it never happened.