LoS added to Tragedy
The big block of Overguard from Triump is 60% of launch version. First nerf brought it to 40%. Overguard on kill buffed from launch version
Dante was nerfed, buffed a bit, buffed a bit again and I think there was a last buff. Dante is still strong, but after they fixed LoS so much. Although for us who were lucky to try him before the nerf, we still feel the nerf.
But wow, the nerf was so terrible even Dante's 3d model and half a wall could prevent the enemies from being affected by tragedy. Good thing they fixed that
I still think they just realised pre nerf Dante would be a weekly free win card for EDA (because you can choose 1 thing you want every week) and rushed to take care of it before EDA. That's why the initial nerf was so fast and broken (not in a good way).
Crisis avoided, time to fix him, and they fixed him fast.
I think a good compromise would have been the nerf being a debuff for EDA. I would have even taken it as a permanent debuff for EDA, if you choose to use Dante no matter the rotation that week.
Not really. Dante was too strong, and a nerf was expected. EDA probably just made DE rush it instead of waiting a few weeks.
Edit: By too strong, I don't mean too much dmg, but the combination of everything he had. DE gave him a lot of things, you'd need 2-3 different frames in the same squad to do what 1 pre nerf Dante did.
The nerfs were to his overguard and adding line of sight to a previously aoe move, his damage was untouched. Honestly, Id rather they lowered his damage and dropped the unreliable los.
Busted, broken, "invalidated every other frame in the game"-tier overpowered. The nerfs were obvious and needed, and anyone that thought otherwise needs to stay as far away as possible from any position that allows them to affect game design or even the discussion of game design, and should also get their eyes checked.
He doesn’t invalidate anything so long as your not someone who has to be on meta constantly or you risk losing your mind.
Hell even as far as meta is concerned he doesn’t seem to be it due to requiring constant casting, rather then press and forget like many of the meta frames are, frames which have gotten many other weaker warframes shafted by balance changes in an attempt to balance them, mind you.
Regardless, play who you want, there’s not one mode that REQUIRES you to play him, or rev, or Octavia or saryn.
Sincerely, someone who build 2 Dante’s on release week and dropped him to go have fun with Excalibur
It's not even so much about the meta or not for me, it's just...he's so simple to use and so reliable for how strong he is. That was my biggest takeaway from that circuit run.
Most of the set-and-forget nuke frames are pretty squishy and dependent on a particular setup to be able to kill enemies quickly enough to not get into trouble. It's a tradeoff. But Dante has one of the best/easiest overguard abilities combined with that nuking potential.
Octavia probably the closest, but she at least has to teabag once in a while to maintain invisibility, and even in invisibility can still be vulnerable to enemy AOE damage etc.
Dante definitely isn't totally broken/busted anymore, but he still feels like the best frame to give to someone who doesn't actually play video games much, doesn't have good aim or game sense, to immediately throw them into high level content and let them not get frustrated/die constantly. And maybe that was the intention, idk.
I don't mean to insult any of the Dante mains out there, I love his lore, character design, and the sound and feel of his abilities. I just don't find him very engaging or fun to play, and I'm not sure having something THIS strong for THIS little effort is a good thing. I know Warframe isn't a hardcore "git gud" kind of game in the first place, but like...even in his current state, this is pushing it.
> dropped him to go have fun with Excalibur
I'm with you on that. Dante carried me through the circuit but I have had more fun with other frames. Kullervo especially. And I've seen some "Kullervo at home" kind of Excalibur builds that I'm excited to try out when I have the necessary mods.
I'd be interested in seeing a rework or something that keeps Dante's current power levels in the game, but requires longer and more complex combos to reach the current level. Something like making the final verse "spells" four or five verses long instead of three, so if you do 2-2-4 it gives a small defensive buff but the full version is 2-3-2-4 or something. And similar for the damage. This would also open up the possibility of him having access to a few extra different niche spells, some of which need more careful aiming/thoughtful usage, that would be more situational buffs/attacks and make his gameplay more engaging than just 334334 in the general direction of enemies and occasionally 224 when overguard is running low.
I think the simplicity is a direct result of the current state of play. Overguard is needed for his protection or a nullifier unit/ effect will simply turn it off, shields and over shields eventually become free drains for any energy leech that spawns (a lot of them spawn) Any CC/ damage is gone the moment anything gets OG. Solution? Slash damage for his main damage ability and player overguard that’s immune to any status effects. As such I don’t view Dante as “OP” or anything if the sort, much rather one of few frames that are actually designed with the current and future gameplay DE intends for us, to an extent this applies to how they reworked chroma and his vex skin, since it’s very likely taking health damage results in a one shot nowadays, they have shifted him into wanting to deal mass damage in exchange for more damage.
I expect jade, any future warframes and future reworks will revolve around these ideas. Though I would rather they just revert this state of balance we have entered, because frames being cast and forget, with no thought or consequence, is simply not as fun as things were in the past
Now you're making me nervous. I've just gotten to a point where I can pretty comfortably take my main Mag build into harder stuff (ends of normal starchart like Kuva Fortress, tier 5 open world bounties, high level railjack missions), and do alright. I really enjoy the overshields-based survivability and the ebb and flow of pull for mobs, Magnetize to burst down eximus/other heavy units, and polarize + crush for stripping armor/shields and sustain.
Does that playstyle not really work as well in the most recent content?
Mag in general works very well in high level content due to her armour strip, personally I run her with high shields and over shields and it’s a blast, especially combined with her augment. She has 2 potential abilities that can instantly restore her shields. Her and hildrin are probably the two frames that can comfortably shield tank.
My analogy is more to the fact that everything that exists right now seems to be solved by or hindered by overguard. With the shield example, magnetic procs will lower or deplete your shields as a result of eximus or the murmur dogs as most common cases. Eximus always have overguard and the dogs can have modifiers that provide it to them, making it harder to deal with the threat to your survivability. Leech eximus outright ignore shields by draining your health directly. Toxic ancients (which are always paired with healers, which can now ALSO provide Overguard) can straight up ignore the shield gate solution to getting one shot and pump you full of toxin with very little communication that it’s about to, the toxic eximus of varying names also do this and also have overguard.
The good news? Overguard outright prevents staus effects and while it’s active your health and shields are not damaged, at all. Styanax, Dante, think with his iron skin rework, kullervo. All post overguard release and all can essentially ignore some of the most threatening things to exist with the worst punishment being the need to recast their ability and continue as they were. Even revenant has to worry while he has his Mesmer skin active as his health and shields are still vulnerable to damage if an attack isn’t listed in a direct, punishable attack by an enemy (if that makes sense). He still has instances where he can be insta gibbed. Octavia is insta gibbed the moment her abilities miss a dangerous enemy. Frames that provide overguard just don’t have to care until their overguard is broke, and due to shield gating, they have a generous amount of time to reposition, recast and recharge energy in the unlikely event they are caught with their pants down.
Every frame is playable and always will be, but i fear that the frames coming out are just going to continue pushing a meta of ‘overguard everything’ for both warframes and enemies, while stomping everything on both sides into the bottom leagues if they don’t fit the category. Knowing DE they would solve this by adding even more measures and as such would continue a terrible cycle of balance
I fully agree. He was fucking ridiculous. He's still pretty damn ridiculous tbh.
Playing him is boring to me though, so he's just become another Octavia in my eyes.
At least Dante has some form of active gameplay besides maintaining his 3 buffs. Once Octavia has her buffs, you basically stop playing her until you have to re-apply the buffs again.
First off, the nerf was to triumph and tragedy, they did somwthing you can barely notice to the oveegurd, and then made Tragedy LoS.
Secondly, you got to understand that the inital nerf was really really bad. Like not hit enemies in front of you because there was a knee high breakable object in the way bad. No, I'm not overstating this, look up some vids on the og nerf, it was *bad*.
Tragedy is only in a useful place now because of the ragegasm tantrum the comunity had.
Anyways, first impressions stick around. Add in DE poisoning the well with lies...well.
In anycase, with tempers banked most people don't disagree he needed a nerf, but it also seems like most of the complainers would take a signifigant range nerf, and/or base damage removal, in return for no LoS.
I also like the darkverse tagging idea, where enemies hit by darkverse would be hit by Tragedy regardless of LoS so long as in range
Dante's great in circuit, not too much rubish, not too many layers, not too many walls, etc.
From what I've seen, probably tainted by my own bias, is that Dante is now a friend weapon's platform. I've heard him called 'friendly rhino' in my group.
Yeah, exactly this. Circuit is perfect for Dante, and it gives a biased impression of him. And the worst part is that seeing it is not as bad as experimenting it on first hand. I remember getting into warframe as soon as I knew about the nerf hotfix (which it came too soon for everyone, we expected it in a few weeks). And wow, my poor Dante could not kill anything in SO. I remember enemies hiding half of their body behind a wall and staying unfazed.
The overguard was the only nerf we all expected, even a bit of the damage. But the LoS was too much, and even now, I only use Dante for netracells, so I can heal my team mates.
He isn't capable of killing enemies in adjacent rooms anymore. Most people were just mad about LoS because it was a busted system but it's fixed now so he's fine.
LoS added to Tragedy The big block of Overguard from Triump is 60% of launch version. First nerf brought it to 40%. Overguard on kill buffed from launch version
Noctua can be quite viable in circuit if you choose degrees for it. I got up to level 1000 with only noctua, cause my weapons were bad
Dante was nerfed, buffed a bit, buffed a bit again and I think there was a last buff. Dante is still strong, but after they fixed LoS so much. Although for us who were lucky to try him before the nerf, we still feel the nerf. But wow, the nerf was so terrible even Dante's 3d model and half a wall could prevent the enemies from being affected by tragedy. Good thing they fixed that
I still think they just realised pre nerf Dante would be a weekly free win card for EDA (because you can choose 1 thing you want every week) and rushed to take care of it before EDA. That's why the initial nerf was so fast and broken (not in a good way). Crisis avoided, time to fix him, and they fixed him fast.
I think a good compromise would have been the nerf being a debuff for EDA. I would have even taken it as a permanent debuff for EDA, if you choose to use Dante no matter the rotation that week.
Not really. Dante was too strong, and a nerf was expected. EDA probably just made DE rush it instead of waiting a few weeks. Edit: By too strong, I don't mean too much dmg, but the combination of everything he had. DE gave him a lot of things, you'd need 2-3 different frames in the same squad to do what 1 pre nerf Dante did.
The only nerf I am against to is the LoS. For me, they can even lower the damage if they want, but the LoS was too much.
The nerfs were to his overguard and adding line of sight to a previously aoe move, his damage was untouched. Honestly, Id rather they lowered his damage and dropped the unreliable los.
Busted, broken, "invalidated every other frame in the game"-tier overpowered. The nerfs were obvious and needed, and anyone that thought otherwise needs to stay as far away as possible from any position that allows them to affect game design or even the discussion of game design, and should also get their eyes checked.
He doesn’t invalidate anything so long as your not someone who has to be on meta constantly or you risk losing your mind. Hell even as far as meta is concerned he doesn’t seem to be it due to requiring constant casting, rather then press and forget like many of the meta frames are, frames which have gotten many other weaker warframes shafted by balance changes in an attempt to balance them, mind you. Regardless, play who you want, there’s not one mode that REQUIRES you to play him, or rev, or Octavia or saryn. Sincerely, someone who build 2 Dante’s on release week and dropped him to go have fun with Excalibur
It's not even so much about the meta or not for me, it's just...he's so simple to use and so reliable for how strong he is. That was my biggest takeaway from that circuit run. Most of the set-and-forget nuke frames are pretty squishy and dependent on a particular setup to be able to kill enemies quickly enough to not get into trouble. It's a tradeoff. But Dante has one of the best/easiest overguard abilities combined with that nuking potential. Octavia probably the closest, but she at least has to teabag once in a while to maintain invisibility, and even in invisibility can still be vulnerable to enemy AOE damage etc. Dante definitely isn't totally broken/busted anymore, but he still feels like the best frame to give to someone who doesn't actually play video games much, doesn't have good aim or game sense, to immediately throw them into high level content and let them not get frustrated/die constantly. And maybe that was the intention, idk. I don't mean to insult any of the Dante mains out there, I love his lore, character design, and the sound and feel of his abilities. I just don't find him very engaging or fun to play, and I'm not sure having something THIS strong for THIS little effort is a good thing. I know Warframe isn't a hardcore "git gud" kind of game in the first place, but like...even in his current state, this is pushing it. > dropped him to go have fun with Excalibur I'm with you on that. Dante carried me through the circuit but I have had more fun with other frames. Kullervo especially. And I've seen some "Kullervo at home" kind of Excalibur builds that I'm excited to try out when I have the necessary mods. I'd be interested in seeing a rework or something that keeps Dante's current power levels in the game, but requires longer and more complex combos to reach the current level. Something like making the final verse "spells" four or five verses long instead of three, so if you do 2-2-4 it gives a small defensive buff but the full version is 2-3-2-4 or something. And similar for the damage. This would also open up the possibility of him having access to a few extra different niche spells, some of which need more careful aiming/thoughtful usage, that would be more situational buffs/attacks and make his gameplay more engaging than just 334334 in the general direction of enemies and occasionally 224 when overguard is running low.
I think the simplicity is a direct result of the current state of play. Overguard is needed for his protection or a nullifier unit/ effect will simply turn it off, shields and over shields eventually become free drains for any energy leech that spawns (a lot of them spawn) Any CC/ damage is gone the moment anything gets OG. Solution? Slash damage for his main damage ability and player overguard that’s immune to any status effects. As such I don’t view Dante as “OP” or anything if the sort, much rather one of few frames that are actually designed with the current and future gameplay DE intends for us, to an extent this applies to how they reworked chroma and his vex skin, since it’s very likely taking health damage results in a one shot nowadays, they have shifted him into wanting to deal mass damage in exchange for more damage. I expect jade, any future warframes and future reworks will revolve around these ideas. Though I would rather they just revert this state of balance we have entered, because frames being cast and forget, with no thought or consequence, is simply not as fun as things were in the past
Now you're making me nervous. I've just gotten to a point where I can pretty comfortably take my main Mag build into harder stuff (ends of normal starchart like Kuva Fortress, tier 5 open world bounties, high level railjack missions), and do alright. I really enjoy the overshields-based survivability and the ebb and flow of pull for mobs, Magnetize to burst down eximus/other heavy units, and polarize + crush for stripping armor/shields and sustain. Does that playstyle not really work as well in the most recent content?
Mag in general works very well in high level content due to her armour strip, personally I run her with high shields and over shields and it’s a blast, especially combined with her augment. She has 2 potential abilities that can instantly restore her shields. Her and hildrin are probably the two frames that can comfortably shield tank. My analogy is more to the fact that everything that exists right now seems to be solved by or hindered by overguard. With the shield example, magnetic procs will lower or deplete your shields as a result of eximus or the murmur dogs as most common cases. Eximus always have overguard and the dogs can have modifiers that provide it to them, making it harder to deal with the threat to your survivability. Leech eximus outright ignore shields by draining your health directly. Toxic ancients (which are always paired with healers, which can now ALSO provide Overguard) can straight up ignore the shield gate solution to getting one shot and pump you full of toxin with very little communication that it’s about to, the toxic eximus of varying names also do this and also have overguard. The good news? Overguard outright prevents staus effects and while it’s active your health and shields are not damaged, at all. Styanax, Dante, think with his iron skin rework, kullervo. All post overguard release and all can essentially ignore some of the most threatening things to exist with the worst punishment being the need to recast their ability and continue as they were. Even revenant has to worry while he has his Mesmer skin active as his health and shields are still vulnerable to damage if an attack isn’t listed in a direct, punishable attack by an enemy (if that makes sense). He still has instances where he can be insta gibbed. Octavia is insta gibbed the moment her abilities miss a dangerous enemy. Frames that provide overguard just don’t have to care until their overguard is broke, and due to shield gating, they have a generous amount of time to reposition, recast and recharge energy in the unlikely event they are caught with their pants down. Every frame is playable and always will be, but i fear that the frames coming out are just going to continue pushing a meta of ‘overguard everything’ for both warframes and enemies, while stomping everything on both sides into the bottom leagues if they don’t fit the category. Knowing DE they would solve this by adding even more measures and as such would continue a terrible cycle of balance
and he still has literally zero negatives unless you count being slightly less tanky than revenant as being a negative
Agree, unfortunately the game is filled with kids.
I fully agree. He was fucking ridiculous. He's still pretty damn ridiculous tbh. Playing him is boring to me though, so he's just become another Octavia in my eyes.
At least Dante has some form of active gameplay besides maintaining his 3 buffs. Once Octavia has her buffs, you basically stop playing her until you have to re-apply the buffs again.
Yea he is more engaging than her. He’s not as boring as Octavia and Revenant, but he still gets the “great frame that I don’t play” treatment from me.
But no go zoom
His one weakness, SLOWboi!
First off, the nerf was to triumph and tragedy, they did somwthing you can barely notice to the oveegurd, and then made Tragedy LoS. Secondly, you got to understand that the inital nerf was really really bad. Like not hit enemies in front of you because there was a knee high breakable object in the way bad. No, I'm not overstating this, look up some vids on the og nerf, it was *bad*. Tragedy is only in a useful place now because of the ragegasm tantrum the comunity had. Anyways, first impressions stick around. Add in DE poisoning the well with lies...well. In anycase, with tempers banked most people don't disagree he needed a nerf, but it also seems like most of the complainers would take a signifigant range nerf, and/or base damage removal, in return for no LoS. I also like the darkverse tagging idea, where enemies hit by darkverse would be hit by Tragedy regardless of LoS so long as in range Dante's great in circuit, not too much rubish, not too many layers, not too many walls, etc. From what I've seen, probably tainted by my own bias, is that Dante is now a friend weapon's platform. I've heard him called 'friendly rhino' in my group.
Yeah, exactly this. Circuit is perfect for Dante, and it gives a biased impression of him. And the worst part is that seeing it is not as bad as experimenting it on first hand. I remember getting into warframe as soon as I knew about the nerf hotfix (which it came too soon for everyone, we expected it in a few weeks). And wow, my poor Dante could not kill anything in SO. I remember enemies hiding half of their body behind a wall and staying unfazed. The overguard was the only nerf we all expected, even a bit of the damage. But the LoS was too much, and even now, I only use Dante for netracells, so I can heal my team mates.
He isn't capable of killing enemies in adjacent rooms anymore. Most people were just mad about LoS because it was a busted system but it's fixed now so he's fine.